Home > Apple > Where Does Apple Go from Here? Where Does Apple Go from Here? Eugenia Loli 2004-02-11 Apple 88 Comments Macintosh market share continues to decline, but the iPod and iTunes are hit products. Where does Apple Computer’s future lie? An interview with HBS professor David Yoffie. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 88 Comments 2004-02-11 5:48 am Anonymous going to say this, so it might aswell be me. The marketshare mentioned is a declining percentage. The base has grown. This means that theres actually MORE apple comps out there, Me im a X86 fanboy myself but I wouldnt mind trying out one of those powerbooks. 2004-02-11 6:00 am Anonymous interesting read… nice ideas… i dont agree with em all but still interesting read… 2004-02-11 6:14 am Anonymous This is such a tired argument. Market share *IS* important. For example say, suppose there are 1000 computers and 10 of them are Apple’s. Developers might care (1%). Now suppose the number of computers grows to 5000 and the number of Apple’s grows to 15. Now developers really don’t give a shit. Even though the number of Apple’s expanded the percentage is so small that it doesn’t matter. 2004-02-11 6:25 am Anonymous but Apple has done 2 great things. 1. it has built some amazing software inhouse. Some of the best, and also owns high end apps and makes it cheaper to buy HIGHEND_APP+Mac than the windows version of that HIGHEND_APP… 2. They built amazingly easy and very powerful developer tools and gave them away for free. this makes it easy for a hobby developer to produce programs on his own… This is apparent in the HUGE volume of shareware applications for mac. 2004-02-11 6:54 am Anonymous Why does the author say that the Sony Vaio line has failed?? Aren’t they selling well? Aren’t they having nice products?? What do people think? 2004-02-11 7:05 am Anonymous They purchase Sybase, and develop REALbasic into a solid database front end product. Make Sybase tools that are easier to use than MS SQL! Develop REALbasic so that people can migrate their existing VB applications to the platform of their CHOICE! LINUX, MAC, and even windows but on ones own terms. They purchase/merge with other companies that have been nearly destroyed or in the crosshairs of Microsoft such as Citrix, Corel, Netscape, Novell, Adobe, Macromedia, and Google. Those companies are only alive because they actually invented the technologies that have been or will be copied by Microsoft. Those companies have a lot in commmon. They should GANG up on MS. United they stand divided they go bankrupt! They should at least PARTNER with each other. Why not NDS on OSX? Why not use OS X as the desktop and Linux as the backend. Their is no time for each company to develop products that the other companies already have! Novell has no experience on the Desktop and Apple has no experience with Servers. Why not just use each others expertise!?!??!!? 2004-02-11 8:20 am Anonymous My best friend is a die hard Mac fan…I won’t say I actually like MS or PC’s but its what I use for now. He recently got back from a trip where he bought a new G5. Reluctantly, I sat down and messed with the machine and Panther. After a few minutes online, getting many of the same programs I use on my PC, I was sold. I now have plans to get a new Mac in the coming months and dump my PC along with Windows XP. (Not a fan of Linux, too much trouble for what you get if you ask me) Later on, my older brother stopped by and checked out the G5. Same as I, he too is in the market for a new Mac soon. We all climed in the car and went to one of the local Apple stores. The place was absolutely crazy with the number of people there. We went to a CompUSA after wards to check out some network gear and it was dead. Mid day on a Monday and the PC store, though larger, was completely dead. Workers were standing around doing nothing. At the Apple store, I saw atleast 8 computers be sold in less than an hour. Not bad if you ask me. This leads me to my point. I think people have a stigma about the Mac that needs to be shaken now that OSX is out, along with the G5’s. I think the Mac is a great, powerful and easy to use machine and it will do everything I need. Simply put, if Mac users could sit their friends down who hate Windows (like I hear and read from most people who use it) and show them what a Mac can do, people might be surprised what can be accomplished. 2004-02-11 8:44 am Anonymous Market share does matter for two reasons I can think of off the top of my head. (1) The huge costs that are involved in developing an OS – as the guy mentioned in the article. I would say this affects Apple more than Microsoft, because (historically) Microsoft slaps together an OS and says good enough. The whole appeal of the Mac is the polish that goes into it. Apple ain’t making any money off of Office products, unlike MS. (2) As Avery Fay mentioned, Developers. At some point in time developers just say “fsck it”, I’m not going to waste my time with Macs anymore. It’s just not worth the investment. Eugenia wrote an interesting piece a few days ago about .NET on Apple. This could be a very good thing for Apple. If Developers don’t have to much around with porting their app to Objective-c/Cocoa then there’s a better chance to do a few tweaks to the code to get a Mac version out. The guy in the article kept on mentioning industrial design. Do even Mac people care that much about what the box looks like. I hope the guy wasn’t using that stupid-ass Mac that looked like a lamp as an example of good industrial design. 2004-02-11 8:45 am Anonymous You must be rich. I don’t even know one person who could afford to run out in the middle of a work day and buy an overpriced computer. Most people can’t just walk out of their jobs to browse the aisles of computer stores — that’s why you didn’t see anyone in CompUSA. Try again in the evening or on a weekend, especially a Sunday when all of the rebate specials are going on. Most home users, and especially now because it is the growing market segment, are not rich and privelidged like you. I’ve spent years as a technician and then as a salesman for an Internet PC reseller and I can say for certain that most people are looking for economical solutions, not something pretty or powerful. They want a $500 computer, not a $2500 computer. Apple does not have any current machines that fit this niche; the eMac comes close, but it’s far from the performance level of a comparably priced IA32 PC. Apple caters to rich people — I’d almost say yuppies. If they really want to sell more computers they’ll lower their prices and concentrate on the working class — the people who don’t have computers yet, or are using ancient ones that don’t work well. I hope you and your brother enjoy your new G5 systems and brag to all of the boys down at the country club about it over champagne and caviar. -Jem 2004-02-11 8:45 am Anonymous if you shape and market an entire product to a particular image which is not mainstream, then your product will not sell to the mainstream. When in the Mac section of a big computer shop, the Macs appear like pink flamingos amidst a flock of sparrows. Not everybody wants to stand out. If you’ve got a Mac on your desk, you haven’t just bought a computer, you’ve bought into a social group and image. Most people don’t want to be associated with an anti mainstream image which defines itself by being separate / better than ‘normality’ (ie PC users, the other 98.5%). So people who are going to buy a computer seldom include Apple among the potential brands they’re selecting from – such as H.P., Compaq, Dell, Gateway, etc – because buying a Mac isn’t a part of ‘just buying a computer’; it’s a statement. 2004-02-11 8:54 am Anonymous They are loosing the PC market (Mac IS a PERSONAL Computer, I hate how they make it seem like windows = pc, well, most people use the mac for personal uses). They just need to goahead and license out Mac technology for the PowerPC platform. those cool running PowerPC CPUs will get popular quick for system builders to use to distribute their own Mac computers. ALTERNATIVELY- this may be better for apple thmemselves– Just sell Apple Motherboards for other OEMS. Sell Mac OS on the mass market. They’ll be an apple in every mac then. I think they tried this before but I think they can succeed if they try hard enough 2004-02-11 8:55 am Anonymous One man’s market share is another man’s benchmark is another man’s set of lies, lies and more damn slanted proselytizing. Where I live there are way more Apple laptops as a growing proportion at the local Starbucks. Where are they coming from? I’ve talked to a lot ofpeople who have them and they are very happy with their purchase. Apple will be the first consideration when they go to buy again. “They” included a television writer, a musician, an anthropologist doing ancient text archiving , some graphic designers, a wedding photo guy, a children’s book editor, some students. Not a marketing study, but truly, real folks. “They” convinced me to try one. I have a G4 933mhz. Apple really gets the kind of ease, reliability,and complete workflow environment that people like me enjoy as I do my work. As a musician I find that they really have a great combination of style and substance in the computing environment. There is at least 15 people in my life seriously considering Apple. Lots of musicians are receptive to Apple. I am not convinced the article’s case studies reflect the intentions and perceptions of people with money in hand. The word of mouth in the open source community is incredible. Also not apparently considered. Where to go from here? Well let’s see. the people I’ve talked to are really interested in the confluence ofcommodity hardware, computing substance, and a great environment. We want to talk to each other. We ‘re good people we are gonna do good things. Apple doesn’t need to go anywhere they just need to listen. Their existing customer base and the development community has some truly great and interesting things to say…….. Like linux for instance. 2004-02-11 8:55 am Anonymous Hehe, I don’t know about you but I don’t give tours of my office/desktop to the general public so they can comment on my choice of a PC. The majority of people don’t have a choice of what they use at work. But, I’ll agree that there is a stigma out there associated with some of the zealotry and just outright stupidity that some mac users exibit. It’s like they can’t wait to say “I have a Mac, hear me roar” 2004-02-11 8:59 am Anonymous Where I live there are way more Apple laptops as a growing proportion at the local Starbucks. Haha, if you only understood how funny what you wrote is. 2004-02-11 9:04 am Anonymous Oh, so Macs are only for rich people? Buying a Mac is making a social statement? Nobody could afford to shop at CompUSA on a weekday? Come on, this is BS. Anybody with even a remotely decent income can save up just a wee bit more and get a good Mac. And my local CompUSA is somewhat dead all the time — even evenings. The Apple stores I’ve visited are just more fun, and more popular. Sorry PC zealots, get over it eh? Jared 2004-02-11 9:06 am Anonymous Wow, some open-minded folks for a change. Amazing. You know, if general computer users were this open-minded, I believe Apple would really own 5% or more of the worldwide market going forward. As it is, the Microsoft/x86 vendor lock-in is still so pervasive that it’s scary. Truly scary. Jared 2004-02-11 9:37 am Anonymous Make stylish x86 clones with a 10-15% premium and bundle some nice IApps. Sell OSX to IBM. 2004-02-11 9:42 am Anonymous Wow, some open-minded folks for a change. Amazing. I don’t think many people despise Macs – per se. It’s just that when people start spouting the “reality distortion field” rantings of Jobs, then they’re going to get called out on it. Personally, I would love for Apple to just go ahead and start selling OSX for x86, but since that’s not going to happen I’ll stick with XP Pro and Slack. Also, I just recently purchased a desktop replacement notebook and Apple doesn’t even offer the type of powerful system that I got for any price. 2004-02-11 9:47 am Anonymous For all the arguments put forward, the facts have rather been neglected. First, how much do developers care? If you are selling software, surely what matters is the number of units you can shift? If you have to make a choice between one OS or the other, it’s important. But increasingly, the majority of code in a product is portable – you are only talking about a small layer that is written specifically for an OS. Even if Mac’s market share is 1%, you could still be talking about shifting a million units to Mac customers for a small amount of work – why wouldn’t you do it? (NB: you do *NOT* have to port an app to Objective-C – Obj-C interacts with standard C code. There is nothing to stop you taking the majority of code as C, with a small Obj-C / Cocoa layer – or even compiling against Carbon). As for the development of the OS, let’s look at it the reality: 1) MacOS X is built on BSD – a large portion of the kernel is developed ‘free’. 2) Apple have released *major* revisions of OS X on yearly cycles – using OpenGL to render the desktop (Jag), graphics ‘tricks’ and security, speed, stc. (Panther). How long does it take Microsoft to release comparatively minor OS upgrades (ie. Win95 -> Win98 -> WinME)? When is Longhorn coming? Does Apple’s OS division really outnumber Microsoft’s to *that* extent? Bottom line – Microsoft has to pay for and develop *everything* about their OS – Apple doesn’t. It shows in the delivery cycles, and it (probably) shows in their bottom line too – OS development costs Apple less than it does Microsoft. 3) The talk of the ‘next’ OS. MacOS X is built on BSD, which is progressing along quite nicely. They have demonstrated *huge* potential to innovate and develop the user interface above that layer. MacOS X already contain many of the ‘next generation’ features (ie. a 2D desktop rendered by the graphics accelerator, PDF compositing, etc.). Microsoft can continue to beaver away on Longhorn – MacOS X is already a solid foundation, that doesn’t need replacing anytime soon. 2004-02-11 9:48 am Anonymous This is such a tired argument. Market share *IS* important. For example say, suppose there are 1000 computers and 10 of them are Apple’s. Developers might care (1%). Now suppose the number of computers grows to 5000 and the number of Apple’s grows to 15. Now developers really don’t give a shit. Even though the number of Apple’s expanded the percentage is so small that it doesn’t matter. Yes, market share is important, and Apple still controls >90% of the creative market. As long as Apple maintains this control, the makers of pro apps will certainly continue supporting Apple as a platform. For most pro applications, the Windows MDI implementation (with the gray background that obscures all other windows) renders multi-application setups unusable. Imagine a standard Reason/Cubase setup… if you want to see the Reason rack window while in Cubase, you have to unmaximize the Reason parent MDI window and wrap it around the child window for the rack, since the rack cannot maximize within the MDI window. Applications which depend on a large number of child windows, like Cubase, Photoshop, QuarkXPress, etc. become very difficult to work with in conjunction with other applications, especially in cases where you have multiple documents open. A floating control like a timer becomes obscured by the gray MDI background when another application is selected. A Photoshop child window is obscured by the gray background when you want to look at how a particular photo in Photoshop will look side by side with your layout. Finally, there’s accessability to the desktop icons, which is rendered almost impossible by the Windows MDI system. An efficient Mac user can place desktop icons properly and have multiple documents open on another portion of the screen. I think you’ll find that, in America at least, virtually every newspaper and magazine will be a Mac shop. A music studio without a Mac is a joke… the Windows port of Cubase is atrocious. Perhaps you know Jim Bob’s music studio that uses PCs… great, but all mainstream professional music production and CD authoring is done on Macs. And did I mention video editing and DVD authoring? There aren’t any decent video editing programs for PCs… the best available is the atrocious Avid Xpress DV port which crawls at half the speed of a dual 2GHz G5 on a dual 3.2GHz Xeon. Sure Apple may only be a niche player, but all of their application developers are stuck in that same niche with Apple because the pro userbase largely detests Windows and doesn’t want to change from Mac. So when the majority of newspapers, magazines, recording studios, CD authoring, video post-production and DVD authoring are done on PCs, then Apple should start to worry. 2004-02-11 9:54 am Anonymous And they’re Dells. I’ve been using an old Powerbook — a Pismo — for half a year, and I really wanted to buy a new Powerbook, a 15″ one. But I’m not that fond of OS X anymore (see http://www.valdyas.org/fading/index.cgi/software/linuxosx.html?seem… for why), and if I am going to run Linux anyway, I can use a x86 laptop just as well as a powerpc laptop. And then, I can buy two (ugly, heavy) Dell 5150’s with lots of memory, hard disk, CPU, battery life and pixels for the price of one 15″ Powerbook. And since my wife needed a new laptop, too, the choice was easy. 2004-02-11 10:00 am Anonymous Same thing with me. I almost bought the Dell 5150 but they wouldn’t swap out the crappy Nvidia card for the ATI Radeon 9600, so I went with a Sager 5680. Not only can you get a very powerful x86 system for about $2k, you can’t even get that kind of power from a Apple notebook currently. 2004-02-11 10:22 am Anonymous You know, if general computer users were this open-minded, I believe Apple would really own 5% or more of the worldwide market going forward. It’s not a matter of open mindedness, it’s a matter of practicality. As it is, the Microsoft/x86 vendor lock-in is still so pervasive that it’s scary. Truly scary. There’s a hell of a lot more vendor lock-in on Apple/PPC than there is on Microsoft/x86. 2004-02-11 10:22 am Anonymous Here’s a screenshot of a Cubase/Reason ReWire setup: http://fails.org/windowsmdi.png 2004-02-11 10:29 am Anonymous To be fair, it should be the application developers who are “blamed” for MDI programs, not Windows (or Microsoft). MDI was supposed to be deprecated when Windows 95 was released with its document-centric interface. There’s little Windows (or Microsoft) can do to force developers not to use it. 2004-02-11 10:44 am Anonymous While Apple’s marketshare may be falling, there seems to be more software than ever for the platform. Sure, a few apps are no longer being published, but there are a lot of new ones too. It seems likely that Apple will continue to publish more titles as time goes by. Since Apple sells around 3 million machines per year, their high hardware margins can fund the gaps that appear. (e.g. add $100 to the price of each Mac and you have $300 million to develop new software. As long as Apple can continue to publish great software and make decent hardware, they should be around for a long time. Personally, I feel that the PC software market is getting stale. The combination of OSS availablity and MS market dominance doesn’t leave a lot of room for smaller commercial developers. 2004-02-11 11:51 am Anonymous Personally I use Windows XP and Linux. I have all the applications I`ll ever need, the biggest development communities, and hardware that is high performance and dirt cheap. The Mac just doesn`t have relevance for me or the average user – and that is borne out by its market share. It`s not that people don`t like Apple (although I can`t necessarily say the same about some of their zealots), it`s just that there is no unique selling point in general use. If you need niche software you might well end up choosing a Mac – but what happens to Apple when that niche software gets ported to Windows, as in the long run it will almost certainly will be ? The only other reason I can think of for buying a Mac is to make a social statement. For me, if it exists, this is covered by Linux which seems to embody all that is best about the human spirit – or as close as a bunch of bytes will ever get to it ! Apple will continue for years to come but I suspect they will eventually fade away just as many other (often talented) firms have who thought they could take on the x86 Goliath. 2004-02-11 11:52 am Anonymous I have no Idea what you guys are talking about. Ican’t find a X86 pc with all the options I want for any where near the price of the powerbook. I have size, weight, hard drive, memory, screen size restrictions that I want my notebook to conform to. I don’t want a 7 lb monster, that gets so hot you have to put it up in the air for cooling. I also don’t want to call India for a replacement part(dell anyone). You get what you pay for, Dell uses the cheapest parts, out of 3 Dells I have used, two have been completely replaced due to Massive amounts of defects. So when you replace both your dells next year, cause they broke, my powerbook will still be humming along , and the year after that when your new dells break and you have spent $6000 in laptops in 3 years, and I spent $2200 I will still be humming along. Enjoyyour cheaper computers. 2004-02-11 12:03 pm Anonymous I am sure you need a LOT of money to develop the next version of OSes, like integrating so many things into it (Longhorn), but I don’t think it could be that expensive for Apple. They can just take the latest BSD base and just add their GUI and stuff on top. It’s not like they have to start from scratch. a non-mac user point of view… <<Proud to live in the birthland of Linux>> 2004-02-11 12:05 pm Anonymous i spend like 1600 euro on a x-86 pc notebook last year, the thing was overheated, it broke down 6 times and was a true hell to me. I sold it after it was replaced for the 6th time and bought the new iMac Flat Panel. It is so silent i just cant believe it. OSX10.3 is truly great and i have all the apps i need, MS OFFICE(word, excel, powerpoint), media player, realplayer, msn, ms explorer, dreamweaver. photoshop, devtools and much much more. Was it expensive? well a little bit more yes, but it was worth it! and it aint true that they are twice as expensive, compare my new iMac to DELL or HP pc’s with a flatpanel and they come really close to each other . 2004-02-11 12:08 pm Anonymous i dont think that Microsoft has build anything from scratch yet.. it is still the same Windows core they build their “new” GUI on. Apple has done quite more development with their new software and their new OS for example Rendezvous. 2004-02-11 12:48 pm Anonymous … or they’ll find in a few years Linux is wiping the floor with them. Macs are cute but expensive. Now imagine a company that had the same kind of hardware talent and put together a really sweet but also cheap PC/Linux laptop/desktop range – perhaps do a Ximian and hack the desktop to make it smoother, better integrated etc. Now imagine it selling for a quarter of the price of a Mac, but targetted at the same market. What would they do with that, hm? It’s not a problem right now, and probably won’t be for several years, but it’ll happen. Apple are probably wise to de-emphasise their computer market. 2004-02-11 1:03 pm Anonymous Mac notebooks might be decent for your power-saving, underpowered, light notebook needs, but that wasn’t what I or I think the other guy was talking about. The Dell 5150 and my Sager 5680 are desktop replacements. These are for people that don’t need to hang out at the park with their notebooks or for people that are too weak to pick up 8 lbs. Nothing that Apple offers in a notebook line will come close to the power that I get on my Sager even at a thousand dollars more. As far as Dell laptop quality, I don’t know about that. I do know that my Sager runs perfectly and the tech support blows away anything that Apple ever will offer. 2004-02-11 1:10 pm Anonymous Well, its probably a good thing that Apple chose some off-the-shelf os components since they fumbled around for years with failed efforts such as Rhapsody and Copeland. It’s not as a simple as just throwing together BSD on top of Mach though. MS is not starting from ground zero either. By the way, Linus lives in the Bay Area now and has no intentions of ever returning to Finland. So you’re proud of the messy bedroom that Linus developed Linux in? That’s strange. 2004-02-11 1:20 pm Anonymous When i recenlty bought my older powerbook i never considered what “image” i would portray. Who gives a damn what people think about me and my Mac! I was interested in a portable Unix workstation mainly that did more then just xterm and remote X. I have never been more happy with a computer purchase! The only thing my Powerbook doesn’t do well for me is gaming so i will always keep XP around for that. All my other computing needs i plan to migrate over to my Mac. As far as being expensive thats a poor argument since unlike other computers Macs hold their value hence the $1500 i paid for a 2 year old G4 powerbook. How much is your 2 year old PC laptop worth? As far as OSX for x86 I doubt it will ever happen. Apple is not a software company. 2004-02-11 1:26 pm Anonymous He states Apple’s revenue is at $6 billion in the article. Well, since Apple reported 2003 earning more than 3 months ago and it was reported at close to $7 billion, that leads me to question other figures he uses to support the case(yes, Apple’s revenues had gone as low as $6 billion/year at one point, but the company spent most of 2003 showing signficant revenue GROWTH). The most recent quarter shows Apple topped $2 billion in quarterly revenue, so all signs point to Apple getting close to $8 billion in annual revenue for 2004 – this doesn’t sound like dwindling revenues to me. The $1 billion figure for the cost of OS X development which is somehow exactly the same as the cost of $1 billion is ABSOLUTELY QUESTIONABLE. Where is he getting these figures? I recall reading a Wall Street Journal article several years back prior to Windows XP’s release that quoted a $5 billion figure for XP development. Hell, Microsoft spent $1 billion just on initial marketing. It is also questionable that he equates $1 of Apple R&D the equivalent of $1 of Microsoft R&D. Anybody who lives in the real world knows that every company gets a different amount of bang for the buck. All those billions spent on Windows XP, and Microsoft still has only pathetic alternatives to certain Apple software like iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto, and GarageBand. When was the last time time Microsoft updated Windows Movie Maker? Hell, when was the last time Microsoft updated IE?!! A simple pop-up blocker, hello? The guy is trying to make a case but he’s so full of the rightness of his own assumptions (coming up with a conclusion then trying to find a case study to support it), that it’s unfortunate it has the veneer of objectivity. But of course, anyone who puts together a case study (with incorrect or outdated numbers) for a major university is automatically correct. What’s disappointing is that almost everyone who’s posted so far has done little to question the numbers and assumptions in the article. No wonder politicians, telemarketers, and hawkers of penis enlargement pills have to so easy with the American populace. 2004-02-11 1:36 pm Anonymous David Yoffie also states that the real number of active Mac users is 8 million. Let’s see, at the January MacWorld, Steve Jobs quoted “9.3 million ACTIVE Mac OS X users” http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/ (Go to the 7’40” mark in the stream) How is 9.3 million OS X users equivalent to 8 million Mac users overall? The 9.3 million figure doesn’t even account for the millions of users still running OS 9 or older. Gee! There are so many facts that are absolutely wrong yet now that the article has been published, we’ll now see journalists everywhere quoting the 8 million user figure. It’s no wonder that Mac users always get incensed when even basic facts are manhandled so regularly this way. 2004-02-11 1:37 pm Anonymous Pixar will buy Apple. make movie and sell music (ipod+itune). thsts it. 2004-02-11 1:39 pm Anonymous Need a Mac desktop replacement? Thats what the entire point of the Powerbooks are. The lightweight, on-the-go laptops you’re thinking of are the iBooks, which is why they don’t have very many expansion ports while the Powerbooks do. I’ve had a Powerbook G4 for a year and a half now and believe me when I tell you that it’s a desktop replacement. Full expansions, loads of RAM, and when stressed with any sort of heavy crunching or I/O, not only has it never let me down but I’m continually going ‘wow’ that it has more to spare. Its lighter, runs cooler, and uses less power than any desktop, so I’m quite happy with it. And I think that “social image” junk is BS. 2004-02-11 1:44 pm Anonymous Of course you could always run darwin on a X86 box run an Powerpc emulator in the kernel and then run panther…… Donaldson 2004-02-11 1:46 pm Anonymous “”They” included a television writer, a musician, an anthropologist doing ancient text archiving , some graphic designers, a wedding photo guy, a children’s book editor, some students. ” That sums up the Mac market very well. Note that these are all people who have some specific use for the computer – they actually _do_ something. They are not office workers who only want Word and IE on their home computers. 2004-02-11 2:01 pm Anonymous Just my personal statement. It’s objective pont of view. Didn’t expect to bother anybody with it, but since you asked, here are my reasons: 1. Newbies reading comments section on OSNews might actually learn that Linux was born in Finland, not the US or any other country. 2. I am am not Finnish, but I am glad to live in this country of open-minded and honest people. 3. Finland has the biggest percent of people with superior education in the EU, copmared to other countries. It’s close to 80%. And in this small country operates NOKIA, the biggest cell-phone manufacturer. Rivaled only by the merger of Sony and Ericsson. So yeah… I can repeat that statement as many times as I like. <<Proud to live in the birthland of Linux>> 2004-02-11 2:36 pm Anonymous “have no Idea what you guys are talking about. Ican’t find a X86 pc with all the options I want for any where near the price of the powerbook. I have size, weight, hard drive, memory, screen size restrictions that I want my notebook to conform to. I don’t want a 7 lb monster, that gets so hot you have to put it up in the air for cooling. I also don’t want to call India for a replacement part(dell anyone). You get what you pay for, Dell uses the cheapest parts, out of 3 Dells I have used, two have been completely replaced due to Massive amounts of defects. So when you replace both your dells next year, cause they broke, my powerbook will still be humming along , and the year after that when your new dells break and you have spent $6000 in laptops in 3 years, and I spent $2200 I will still be humming along. Enjoyyour cheaper computers.” Hehe thats funny considering that the same company that builds dells laptops is building the apple ones too! (unless im misstaken). Oh and can you please show me an apple ultraportable? (no the 12″ models are not ultraportables, 10.6″ Vaio at less than a kg is). 2004-02-11 2:38 pm Anonymous Steve Balmer would be a “Great” Prison guard LOL! “”These cells are made of Titanium, and are asthetically pleasing!”” pretty they are, Titanium they aren’t plastic is more like it….. take it how you want. flame me too. I don’t care 2004-02-11 2:40 pm Anonymous <<Proud to live in the birthland of Linux>> So you live in Linus’s old bedroom? I’m glad your proud about that. Thanks for the history lesson about Finland. We’re all thoroughly impressed. <<Proud to sleep in a room>> 2004-02-11 2:42 pm Anonymous Well, reading trough the comments really game me some thoughts. First of all people care so much about market share, especially Apple users and those PC zealots, one saying that its growing, the other that Apple will disappear. Personally I don’t care if Apple goes to hell or that the x86 dies over night. I’m a Linux user, and Linux runs on both. I don’t need a Mac to show off, and most certainly I don’t need the power of a G5. I love computers, and I’ve studied computer programming and computer science, but the computer is not the center of my life. I don’t care how much market share Linux has, I don’t use it to be different or to be l33t, I use it because I like it. I like what it has to offer for me, more freedom, more space, more choice. When I go online my browser identifies as IE6 on Win2k. And I’m on Linux. That led me to the conclusion not to trust google’s Zeitgeist. Apple’s are expensive, but a little bit more higher quality than whatever PC brand you would get in the same price range. But then again, Apple’s are also mostly manufactured in China… Anyway, they are too damn expensive. Cheat PC’s are crap, they will be always trouble, especially coupled with Windows. Linux on a cheap PC is more stable than Windows, way more. I’m typing this from my TOSHIBA laptop that runs Slack 9.1 with KDE 3.2. Cool, effective, small. It was cheap and high quality, does everything I need. Apple is not a religion, and so are computers, just some machines that play now a higher importance in our life’s than ever before. 2004-02-11 2:42 pm Anonymous Well, reading trough the comments really game me some thoughts. First of all people care so much about market share, especially Apple users and those PC zealots, one saying that its growing, the other that Apple will disappear. Personally I don’t care if Apple goes to hell or that the x86 dies over night. I’m a Linux user, and Linux runs on both. I don’t need a Mac to show off, and most certainly I don’t need the power of a G5. I love computers, and I’ve studied computer programming and computer science, but the computer is not the center of my life. I don’t care how much market share Linux has, I don’t use it to be different or to be l33t, I use it because I like it. I like what it has to offer for me, more freedom, more space, more choice. When I go online my browser identifies as IE6 on Win2k. And I’m on Linux. That led me to the conclusion not to trust google’s Zeitgeist. Apple’s are expensive, but a little bit more higher quality than whatever PC brand you would get in the same price range. But then again, Apple’s are also mostly manufactured in China… Anyway, they are too damn expensive. Cheat PC’s are crap, they will be always trouble, especially coupled with Windows. Linux on a cheap PC is more stable than Windows, way more. I’m typing this from my TOSHIBA laptop that runs Slack 9.1 with KDE 3.2. Cool, effective, small. It was cheap and high quality, does everything I need. Apple is not a religion, and so are computers, just some machines that play now a higher importance in our life’s than ever before. 2004-02-11 2:45 pm Anonymous whats with the double post? 2004-02-11 3:01 pm Anonymous …. I didn’t submit it 2 times, so feel free to mod one down… 2004-02-11 3:17 pm Anonymous must be a Linux glitch 2004-02-11 3:40 pm Anonymous This man has a financial bias. In the middle of the article you see this reference that explains alot… “(Yoffie is a board member of Intel, whose chips power most PCs and who has tried to woo Apple as a customer.—Ed.)” 2004-02-11 3:44 pm Anonymous the guy is missing something here. Apple seeks to displace SGI, sun and other big iron vendors who rely on proprietary systems. That is going to take time but the writing is on the wall. Apple also seeks to expand the consumer oriented products. so apple is not goint to depreciate the os spending over just consumer desktops and they are getting into new markets. I don’t know about the figure either $1.5 billion to develop the next oS..Maybe..maybe not. I also think his appraisal of longhorn is a tad bit optimistic. Itanium was supposed to be the death knell for risc and powerpc..didn’t happen. XP was supposed to be the “great threat” to OS x and apple…didn’t happen. 2004-02-11 4:09 pm Anonymous Ryan, You mentionned the thing about Itanic and XP which were supposed to be the Death knell of Apple and it did not happened. What if the next Xbox was that Death knell? It will have 3 PowerPC processor running at 3GHZ. That’s way more processing power than anyone might need for the next 3 years. If the thing comes on the Market even at 400 pounds, soon to be 250. How long will it take before someone got OSX to run on it? 1 month? 3 month? 1 year? Worst case scenario the thing will run MacOS on top of Linux through Maconlinux within weeks. Apple will have to innovate big time to counter that one. 2004-02-11 4:17 pm Anonymous I agree that computers takes a bit more place in our life than it should, just look at all those comments. But someone as to explain something to me. I use Linux, not because WinXP isn’t a good OS, but because I feel stuck under WinXP, it won’t let me enough freedom to let me do what I want, and to let me understand it! And of course the whole debate over M$ commercial practices. I use an X86 achitecture because I felt is was more flexible and cheaper and easier to find good deal$. But when I look at Apple, not only are you stuck with their OS (ok, maybe not), but with their hardware too! How can you accept that? To me this is a lot wrost than what M$ does, no? Not to mention the G5 and the replacement parts are overpriced. But I’d really like to be answered about having less freedom? On another note, did you guyz saw that on arstechnica, the guy who did a false article on converting a G5 to a PC? SO funny, but sure is a good idea, can you buy standalone G5 case? Most PCs are so ugly, I wouldn’t mind my PC looking like a G5, as long as I have an x86 inside. 2004-02-11 4:43 pm Anonymous The guy in the article kept on mentioning industrial design. Do even Mac people care that much about what the box looks like. Yep. Working on a computer is much more fun if the machine is actually nice to look at. It’s the same reason why people decorate their cubicles. I hope the guy wasn’t using that stupid-ass Mac that looked like a lamp as an example of good industrial design. It’s good industrial design even if you don’t like it – and a lot of people did like it. For me the movable screen, small footprint and quietness far outweighed the lack of CPU oomph. I also own a PC five times as powerful as the iMac, but it’s far too cumbersome and noisy for serious work. 2004-02-11 4:44 pm Anonymous After sitting down on a mac I bought one. I grew up hating computers from my experience in junior high, we had comidor 64’s. I think my school was cheap, because at the time macs were out with lovely GUI’s for the time. So I think it’s getting people on a mac and letting them find out what they do and how great OS X is. That is where Apple stores come in. Didn’t like the article, they writer’s cup seems half-empty. 2004-02-11 4:51 pm Anonymous “Sell OSX to IBM.” I am an IBM fan, but that is probably the worst thing you could do. OS/2, IMHO, is one of the best OSes ever created and they couldn’t sell it. 2004-02-11 4:53 pm Anonymous I don’t know why some people insult other people just because they running Linux, Windows or a Mac. —————————- “Yeah, that’s what the guy told you that sold it to you. There’s a mac sucker born every minute.” —————————- I have a mac just because I think it saves me time for the work I’m doing. It comes with some decent apps and it runs great. Yes it looks good but so do some PC (Alienware). In the end I have to do work on it and should be comfortable using it. I think Apple is on the right track. New powerful machines, a good OS and what I noticed since I switched it has a great community standing behind whatever Apple is doing. ——————- http://www.sideliners.ca 2004-02-11 6:10 pm Anonymous Why do people label other people as “suckers” for driving a better looking car, having nicer clothes or house? Whats wrong with having good industrial design? Why can’t the 12″ PowerBook be labeled as an ultraportable? It actually has a working SuperDrive built-in yet people find their is fault with that. Is it so bad that Apple Powerbooks are an inch thick and light? If I make a good living to afford more expensive things why is that bad? These arguments that some people post are just really shallow. Their is nothing wrong with PowerBook laptops, Who the freak is Sager anyway? Its not like they are a household name or they are rated highly by Consumer Reports. Then another guy comments that only rich people can afford Macs. Bzzzt wrong! Try managing your money. Rich and poor people have to do it. I’m a poor to average money manager with an average salary in a big city having no college education and I can afford a Mac. 2004-02-11 6:44 pm Anonymous Sure, Macman — I believe you. But I’ve got E. 2600, and I need two laptops… Can’t get two powerbooks for that price, unless I buy second-hand and there are no ibooks with a resolution > 1025×768. So, not much choice, is there? 2004-02-11 6:56 pm Anonymous “As far as being expensive thats a poor argument since unlike other computers Macs hold their value hence the $1500 i paid for a 2 year old G4 powerbook. How much is your 2 year old PC laptop worth? ” The thing you miss is this is not good for apple. Also it frankly shouldn’t matter to you. If you buy something and it’s good why would you care how it holds it’s value, your not going to sell it. You only worry about value on stuff you don’t tend to hang on to. For apple the prices in the after market hurt them. People can pick up a very fast year old x86 box for nothing. Heck you can build one for just a few hundred bucks. If a person wants to get a mac but doesn’t have much money they are going to go the used route. But you go to say ebay, and a single proc. 400mhz G4 is 800 bucks, (I didn’t look for current prices today, but it’s been in that neighbor hood for a while). People arn’t going to buy that. Thats a lot of money for a computer that gets crushed by newer models. And one could have a windows box off ebay that would beat it for 200 bucks. Basicly, you need to have your hardware become cheap for re-sale and still be fairly current. Otherwise it makes for a huge entry barrier. The cheapest new mac you can get is the eMac, which few would want. You quickly are over a grand for any new model. If apple make a model like a monitor less imac (the iDome) that would help, then people could buy just what they want. And make for a good entry level. But as long as getting a good performing x86 box is a few times cheaper then a mac, apple will struggle to gain ground. I would love a mac, but I can’t swing that kind of money. In a year when I have a job making 50 grand a year a apple will still be expensive to purchase. It’s very hard to change the momentum of people are fine with cheap (as in price) computers. If you need a newer computer there is always someone you know who is upgrading and will sell you there cheap, or build you a nice computer for 500 bucks. A 1ghz box is fine fow winXP, and you can put together a 2 ghz box for cheap which is more then one needs. Until apple can get there used prices to drop where they make sense to buy, they will hurt. Until they put out a slow non upgradabily computer for about 500 bucks they stand no chance. If you think the install base will hold them you are nuts. the idea that macs last longer is nuts. The only way they last longer is companies can’t afford to upgrade to new macs, not cause they actualy last longer. Also I would say the current installed base is shrinking hard with the turn over to OSX, not to many older macs will run OSX at a speed people will want to use it. But you can run winXP on a 5 year old box just fine. Apple wants to get back to 5% they know it’s critical. No one is looking for a killer mac that is cheap, but a 1.8ghz G5 in a small box with some optical drive options for a few hundred box would be a huge boon to apple. The eMac is a turd that one would be ashamed to own. By the time you get a a desirable mac it’s to expensive for young people to buy or to convince parents to buy. Apples future is in young people remember, thats how the first iMac saved them. The got the young people market. The have run out of steam with that and need to do the same thing again. 2004-02-11 6:57 pm Anonymous MacStation in Vancouver had an 12″ iBook for sale. I belive it was the 700MHZ model for $850 Canadian Dollars. I bought my iBook 14″ 933MHZ for $1500 from London Drugs in Vancouver, BC. It was an open box. The laptop was still sealed but the software was open. Thats a pretty good deal. Boudewijn you might want to check out the Apple website and read up on some specs regarding resolution. http://www.apple.com/ibook/specs.html ————————- http://www.sideliners.ca 2004-02-11 7:35 pm Anonymous at least it’s not a Xandros review 2004-02-11 7:44 pm Anonymous I had a business school professor who got kicked out of faculty of harvard business school. the dean took him into his office and said now we think you are a good professor but we’ll have to you let you go unless you change your behavior because you have no respect for the faculty here at harvard. My professors response was i have no respect for your professors because they deserve none. They wouldn’t know how to run a business if it fell on their lap. They are a bunch of academics and wall street types who’ve never run a succesful business in their life. they shouldn’t be giving advice to anyone. Net: I trust jobs more than this wall st/havard clown. 2004-02-11 7:57 pm Anonymous Apple’s unit sales of Powermacs, Powerbooks, and across the board all Macs have increased substantially over the quarter a year ago!! Go read the SEC filings (available for free on Yahoo). Apple is doing quite well! 2004-02-11 8:06 pm Anonymous “Sure, Macman — I believe you. But I’ve got E. 2600, and I need two laptops… Can’t get two powerbooks for that price, unless I buy second-hand and there are no ibooks with a resolution > 1025×768. So, not much choice, is there?” Well, that actually is the iBook’s DEFAULT screen resolution so OK whatever… Regardless, I’ve met “computer” people who think Apple is owned by Microsoft and that no software is made for Macs and “Mac” is out of business. If you tell them that the third fastest cluster in the world uses 1100 Macs there stunned with a glassy eyed look, then they tell you a liar when you tell them that MacOS is now unix-like. They tell you, oh, its Linux or Windows really…OK 2004-02-11 8:22 pm Anonymous maybe it’s time steve jobs allows other companies to sell mac os x clones? 2004-02-11 8:43 pm Anonymous No, that didn’t work. The clones ruined the uniqueness of apple systems. Apple should use their unix base to play the market. They should increase compile compatability with linux. Create and maintan a native gtk port. Create and maintan a native sdl port. Make it so porting linux apps like abiword to mac means nothing more than a recompile. The linux companies can deal with markets that apple does not want to be in. Every $200 linux pc sold would in effect also be contributing to apple’s market share. This way the size of the market developers target goes up, without sacrificing their position as the gucci of computers. 2004-02-11 8:44 pm Anonymous I was actually looking for something with ‘>’, that is, greater than, 1024*768… Still, don’t get me wrong, if I could have bought the 15″ powerbook, I would have done so. I really like my Pismo. But it not only didn’t make sense — it was impossible. And I’m keeping my Pismo to check whether I haven’t created new endianness issues in Krita. 2004-02-11 8:46 pm Anonymous Until they turn out the lights and roll the last Mac off the line, there will be zealots who will extoll the superiority of the Mac over any other computer that ever existed… Of course, the same applies to x86 users as well… 2004-02-11 9:29 pm Anonymous “Then another guy comments that only rich people can afford Macs. Bzzzt wrong! Try managing your money. Rich and poor people have to do it. I’m a poor to average money manager with an average salary in a big city having no college education and I can afford a Mac.” Spoken like a true yuppy. The “well off” or those “living comfortably” never consider it as such, do they? Always they point to someone like Gates and say “I’m not as rich as him”. Indeed. Anyhoo, the point is, most people don’t need to spend over a grand on a computer to do what they need it to, which you will have to if you buy a Mac, unless you want a slow one. Only a Mac fanatic, or somebody who truly needs the audio/video software AND can afford to drop over a grand casually is going to buy a Mac. Unless, of course, they’re still living in their parents basement and can get their mom to buy it for them. 2004-02-11 9:41 pm Anonymous The anti-rich crowd? What’s wrong with having some money? Is that a crime? Jared 2004-02-11 10:50 pm Anonymous “Spoken like a true yuppy. The “well off” or those “living comfortably” never consider it as such, do they? Always they point to someone like Gates and say “I’m not as rich as him”. Indeed.” Sorry, yuppy I’m not. I drive a japanese car over 5 years old. No college degree and no assistance from the parents either. I got student loans and debt just like everybody else. This owning a Mac thing isn’t financial wizardry or being an MTV pop star like some of you make it out to be. Its deciding what you want and saving up for it. If you don’t have financial discipline don’t bust on people who do. The fact that you can’t save is NOT my problem. “Anyhoo, the point is, most people don’t need to spend over a grand on a computer to do what they need it to, which you will have to if you buy a Mac, unless you want a slow one” NOT TRUE. eMac is plenty fast and people buy used PCs. Used Macs are cheap too. 2004-02-11 11:31 pm Anonymous No, it’s not anti rich talk at all. It’s just getting the point across most don’t have much money. The average income in the US is something like 30grand a year, maybe much lower. That doesn’t leave much room for things like computers. “Sorry, yuppy I’m not. I drive a japanese car over 5 years old.” you hurt your case more then anything with that. for one, driving a japanesse car doesn’t imply you don’t have much money. If you bought it 5 years ago thats when japanesse cars were much more expensive then other equivelants, unless your talking a major POS japanesse car, and then if you bought one of those that would mean you went cheap just to have a new car which is another sign of being a yuppie (going cheap just so you can have a new car instead of getting a used quality car). Granted you didn’t give the details of if you picked it up used, or what it was. Also you put the “over” in there. Like 5 years old is old. That aint old, thats pretty new. I just bought a 3 year old car to replace a 20 year old car, thats old, and the 3 year old one is new. Normal people will drive a car for 6 years without question. If you can think your 5 year old car is old then you have more money avalible to you, or you don’t spend money wisely. Thats the other thing that I think brings up the yuppie issue. They are people who spend money on what they don’t need or more then they need and do it just to say they have it. That fits buying a mac very well. For what most people use a computer for there is no need for a mac or a expensive wintel box. People often buy macs purely to say they have a mac. “Used Macs are cheap too. ” well, you would have to talk to fellow mac people, they have been claiming they hold their value. That would counter them being cheap. Yeah I could buy a G3 pretty cheap. But for the same amount I could build or buy a use computer for that much of decent speed. Or upgrade my current one to near top of the line. 2004-02-12 12:18 am Anonymous When Apple had 10% general market share and 40% educational market share (and Scully/Spindler as CEO) also it had many problems. Now, Apple has 3% general market share, 20% educational market share, 70% digital music market share, Dell sells Apple (!!!) hardware and software to New York schools, Carly Fiorina well sells HP-branded iPod named “Blue” and iTunes will be pre-loaded into all new HP desktop and laptop. Volkwagen sells the Porsche’s SUV “Chayenne” with tipical VW look and the name Tuareg. If the market share have importance Porsche is out of business. 2004-02-12 12:19 am Anonymous “well, you would have to talk to fellow mac people, they have been claiming they hold their value. That would counter them being cheap. Yeah I could buy a G3 pretty cheap. But for the same amount I could build or buy a use computer for that much of decent speed. Or upgrade my current one to near top of the line.” So why are you knocking people for choosing to buy a Mac? Because you choose to buy or upgrade PCs? 2004-02-12 2:44 am Anonymous Macs are not for everyone and the price point proves this. I also don’t think Apple positions it to be either for better or worse. For under $1000 you can still get a Mac and drop some memory in there and you have a pretty nice system. Not the most powerful but pretty nice. For those that say the eMac is too slow for an averge joe user user your talking sh!t. 1GHZ ANY processor works fine for internet and email so don’t even go there. $1000 on the PC side will get you a very fast machine, faster than the eMac but no PC runs MacOSX which is a big reason people even consider a Mac. Do you still think people will consider an eMac over an eMachines if the OS we are talking about is XP and MacOS9? The point is a capable Mac system can be had for under $1000. 2004-02-12 3:08 am Anonymous Marketshare is only used by companies like Palm to justify cutting fat such as Palm Desktop for OSX. Big deal, who really uses Palm Desktop anyway? Most OSX users I know use iCal, Address Book, and iSync. The only people who might care are the potential switchers who are reluctant to buy that new Powerbook because their Tungsten T5 Extreme Gold Edition doesn’t have an MacOS sticker on it. Let’s get real, the article is written by an Intel exec to cast an blanket of FUD over all the good that Apple has done. IMHO, Mr. Yoffie is trying to generate a good argument for Apple to switch to Intel. It ain’t going to happen. 2004-02-12 4:02 am Anonymous is I can spend my money any way I want. – If I value a Great Computer, and an Easy Life and a Fun experience on a computer, I can buy an Apple. – If I don’t I can go cheap with a $400 dell special, whose hard drive will fail within a year, and will run like crap: Windows XP Home Edition. – I’ve just used my old Windows ME machine to attempt to connect to a web server, first it see’s it but won’t get the data, then it doesn’t see it, then it sees it again, then it doesn’t…. – On the Apple, it works every single time. That’s hard to stress to Windows users, until you run an Apple you just don’t appreciate the experience. In America, you can eat Peanut Butter sandwichs and Angle hair pasta, all week long if you want to, and spend you money on what you VALUE the MOST. 2004-02-12 9:18 am Anonymous …If the market share have importance Porsche is out of business. … The difference is that a Porsche is a specialised product with higher margins than a Mac. A very high performance car. It is not aimed at the bulk of the public. An Apple computer is just a slightly different way of approaching the same problem that Wintel platforms address – without any significant benefits. Apple and Wintel platforms can be compared by the average consumer because most of the time they will be used for similar jobs. They are competing for the same market more often than not. Low market share is an indicator of the company`s relevance as a player in a global industry and, as part of a trend, may well indicate its future prospects. Apple`s low market share shows that most people aren`t interested in it, certainly less people than used to be in the past. I suppose Apple will hang around for some time to come (given that even the Amiga still has a market !), but the future does look rather predictable. 2004-02-12 3:15 pm Anonymous “The difference is that a Porsche is a specialised product with higher margins than a Mac. A very high performance car. It is not aimed at the bulk of the public.” Mac is specialised for musicians, designers and generally for person who “think different”. Mac has a limited market share for the strategy of Steve Jobs. He wants to be beloved by users and he knows that the only chance for Apple to survive is to develop specific image. If you want a SIMPLE car, buy a Skoda (popular line of Volkswagen group). If you want a BEAUTIFUL car, buy a Volkswagen (major line of Volkswagen group). If you want a SPORT car, buy a Seat (the spanish line of Volkswagen group). If you want a STYLISH car, buy an Audi (stylish line of Volkwagen group). If you want a REAL LUXURY car, buy a Bentley (controled by Volkswagen group). Skoda Octavia, Volkswagen Bora/Jetta, Seat Toledo and Audi A4 are the same car with different designs and optional items. Ten years ago Audi was a popular line of cars and it had competitors like Fiat and Seat. Now, thanks to the ex-CEO Demel (brand new CEO of Fiat Auto Group) Audi is a STYLISH line of cars and it has competitors like Mercedes or BMW and Seat is a SPORT line of cars that it has competitors like Alfa Romeo. Image is ALL! Image is more important than market share. Image makes profit. A professor in economy must know this. This professor doesn’t know this…… And he’s a director of Intel. All is clean! 🙂 Anyway, read the last quarter documentation of Apple: in Europe +25% general +50% for notebook sector; in USA AppleStores make profit… Remember, silence is gold! 2004-02-12 3:28 pm Anonymous “Apple`s low market share shows that most people aren`t interested in it, certainly less people than used to be in the past.” The last stats say Apple mark is more important than Coca-Cola and Nike. Apple is the second mark on the world; the first is Google. People are most interessed in it! You aren’t informed. 2004-02-12 3:34 pm Anonymous “The difference is that a Porsche is a specialised product with higher margins than a Mac. A very high performance car. It is not aimed at the bulk of the public.” So let me get this straight…a Mac is NOT a niche player with high margins? They probably have one of the highest margins in the computer industry! A dual G5 is not high end? “An Apple computer is just a slightly different way of approaching the same problem that Wintel platforms address – without any significant benefits.” Ever setup IP printing on a PC? Its completely illiogical the setup. Do it on a Mac and all you need is the IP number of the printer. The Mac has significant benefits. Ease of use is very powerful. “Low market share is an indicator of the company`s relevance as a player in a global industry and, as part of a trend, may well indicate its future prospects.” Apple has been on the decline but there is a lot of interest in what Apple is doing and saying despite what you say. HPs partnership with Apple is one area that took a lot of people by surprise. SGI announced InfiniteStorage support for MacOSX which would not happen for a company on the decline or as you say irrelevant. The G5s themselves have tons of mindshare. 2004-02-12 5:58 pm Anonymous I’m so tired of hearing sniveling PC users bitch about how ultra-expensive Apple computers are. Spend $799.00 and get an eMac. Out of the box, it has just about EVERYTHING a user will ever need, and then some. The iLife suite comes installed, and now includes the incredible GarageBand application. Not only that, it runs the world’s best operating system, OS X Panther! And think about all the Unix apps you can run on it!!! Jeez, makes me wonder how the PC folks ever managed a few short years ago when their boxes were priced well over $1000.00? And another thing, obviously a large market share ain’t at the top of Jobs’ list. We all know “ways” they could increase market share, but apparently he just ain’t listening! Thankfully, he’d rather provide an exeptional computing experience for those willing to spend the BIG BUCKS ($799.00). Ouch! 2004-02-12 6:30 pm Anonymous But when I look at Apple, not only are you stuck with their OS (ok, maybe not), but with their hardware too! How can you accept that? To me this is a lot wrost than what M$ does, no? Not to mention the G5 and the replacement parts are overpriced. But I’d really like to be answered about having less freedom? If Apple made crap hardware I would agree that it would be a problem. However in all the years of owning both mac and PC it is the PC’s that break down all the time. I currently have Macs as old as 8 years still up and runnning. In contrast I have a pile of PCs that are nothing more than anchors. I would venture a guess that not many people posting “mac sucks” have actually given it a very long look. The general reaction i get when showing PC people a mac is pretty much, “WOW!” Then when you show them that the “Macs are just more expensive is generally not true they start to think about their next computer purchase. I have had at least 5 students recently switch along with a lot of my friends and not one has regretted the change. In fact I have another friend who is just waiting for the next G5 ramp-up to make his purchase. 2004-02-12 7:31 pm Anonymous The Raven: I am highly sceptical that it would “run” (as opposed to “crawl”) OS X alone, leave alone any applications. And if you plan doing anything remotely related to sound editing on *that* box, please hit yourself with a brick on the head. It would hurt less that way. The eMac is the sibling of $250 Duron box, and will last about as much. Ian Eisenberg: I gave away a working 486, and still have a working Pentium. So what? 2004-02-12 11:00 pm Anonymous “The Raven: I am highly sceptical that it would “run” (as opposed to “crawl”) OS X alone, leave alone any applications. And if you plan doing anything remotely related to sound editing on *that* box, please hit yourself with a brick on the head. It would hurt less that way. The eMac is the sibling of $250 Duron box, and will last about as much.” Kobold why would someone do sound editing on a machine that has no PCI slots? $500 extra gets you into a new G4. Anyway you’ve never used an eMac, thats obvious. In our office they run MacOSX with no problems. So don’t even pretend like you know what you are talking about. “Ian Eisenberg: I gave away a working 486, and still have a working Pentium. So what?” So what? If you use a PC exclusively and “think” you know how a Mac works based on your experience with Windows and PC hardware, don’t even bother posting. These are the typically the most inaccurate posts I read on OSNews. Spend some real time on a MacOSX box. I’m tired of reading posts of how MacOSX is slow from PC users who think “Mac” went out of business. Unless Apple starts making MacOSX for X86 you have no basis for comparison. 2004-02-12 11:22 pm Anonymous Mac OS X is the best operating system ever! It is the ONLY OS where Java run at the same level than compiled applications. Not Windows, not Linux. Not Sun JDS, too. In fact, without Apple tech support (and finantial, too) Java on desktop and Sun business are dead.