Novell’s Linux-oriented divisions, Ximian and SuSE, will work together to make one common Novell Linux desktop from Gnome’s and KDE’s best features, Novell Inc. CEO Jack Messman revealed in an eWEEK.com interview at the company’s annual BrainShare trade show here. Ximian has been the main power behind Gnome, while SUSE has been KDE’s chief backer.
Novell to Combine Best of KDE and Gnome
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“Supporters of the two interfaces have often sparred with each other in flame wars on Slashdot, mailing lists and newsgroups.”
Let’s hope we don’t get a repeat.
Is this what rehat basicly had in mind with bluecurve ? (srry,im pretty new to linux)
You can’t really flame Novell for picking Gnome over KDE or KDE over Gnome, their picking the pros of both and making one grand desktop. It’s also a smarter decision to have one desktop because it’s just easier to support. I would have hoped User Linux would have stayed that course, but it caved into the pressure, and because just another distro in my eyes.
They really didn’t give enough details to understand how they plan on doing this. Do they just mean unify the look and widget set (ie, gtk-qt-engine)? There’s another project to integrate the KDE file dialogs and io slaves so that you could use them from a gtk application. Or do they have plans to delve deeper into the architectures?
No RedHat made a unified theme, this is a totally new desktop.
This may well be the killer Desktop Environment that Linux has been needing so badly. I hope this project unites both the camps and creates something that one can call a “uniform GUI” for Linux and the BSDs.
Unlikely, because as the interview even states, both projects can’t and won’t be technically merged and it also won’t be a “new” desktop.
I assume that this is more about a unified platform than an actual unified desktop (GUI).
So far I don’t think that they have provided any clear roadmap yet, so it will be interesting to see what they _really_ do.
No, not that sort
get you mind out of the gutter 
Novell will standardise on KDE and harmonise the theming engines. If there was a move to GNOME, Novell would have already announced moving YaST to GTK, which they haven’t, meaning, they’ve most likely decided that KDE is more mature than GNOME in terms of creating a consistant desktop experience.
As for where Ximian fits in, mono is the key to this. Novell realise that if they are going to offer and alternative to Windows/Office, they need to fight Microsoft on their own terms. It isn’t necessary to provide an exact API match between mono and .NET considering that mono will be available on Windows as well, but to provide an API which is not only “kinda compatible” but superior from the programmers point of view. If Novell play their cards right and add programmer demanded features to Mono quicker than Microsoft, then they’ll have a great flagship product on their hands.
Why does every other distro coming down the street feel it necessary to ‘tweak’ the standard desktop environments? I am not naming any distro names here as I don’t wish to incite a flame war. But when I decide to use KDE, I want the full KDE experience, not some hacked up, modified, & allegedly tweaked monster that I no longer can recognize. I want my preferences on the taskbar where the KDE developers placed them for my convenience. And if I switch to GNOME tomorrow, I want the same thing – the unmodified GNOME desktop as the GNOME developers saw fit to release it.
More and more, the Linux distributors, and I am not just referring to Novell here (you know who you are), consistently believe it necessary to hack and morph the KDE & GNOME desktops to the point where you can no longer find what you need, or what you need is no longer conveniently placed. And when these distros do this, it is almost impossible to set these desktops set back correctly without rebuilding them from scratch, wholly outside of said distros package managers.
Kudos to the KDE & GNOME developers for providing two of the most useable and productive desktops around. I hope they remember there will always be those of us who wish to experience these desktops completely, rather than the hackjobs some distros are placing on them. We can only hope there will always be distros who don’t do this, or LFS at the very least, will always exist.
I wouldn’t really assume that Novell thinks KDE is “more mature” than Gnome. Maybe you think so, but some of the best development talent at Novell now is Gnome development talent (i.e. Ximian, including the Gnome co-founders). If you’ve seen Ximian Desktop 2 running on SuSE 9, you’ll have to admit that, overall, the Ximian desktop experience is more polished & professional than KDE.
Latest versions of Gnome (2.4-2.6) are very consistent in terms of a desktop experience, and are getting faster. True, KDE 3.2 also got its own speed boost. But Gnome and KDE are competetive in their own ways–KDE has some strengths, Gnome has others.
I think what Novell is saying here is not only that they’ll standardize the themes, but also that they’ll do something like the gtk-qt-engine. When they made the comment, “we have the programming muscle to do it,” they meant they have Ximian and SuSE developers, both experts in Gnome and KDE respectively. Throw those guys in the same room, and I’m sure they can come up with some way to allow for greater desktop consistency. Basically, I’m sure Novell wants to do what Redhat TRIED to do with Bluecurve “in principle” (but Redhat failed)–make it so that desktop users still get all the benefits of using their own DE, but also make it so that no matter what DE you choose, the look and feel will be consistent across and apps, buttons will be where you expect them, etc.
I was sorta guessing Novell would go in this direction. As I said to my friend at LinuxWorld NYC: “Novell is just reselling old copies with SuSE 9, but something tells me after Ximian and SuSE developers sit in the same room, SuSE 10 is going to kick some ass.”
“Why does every other distro coming down the street feel it necessary to ‘tweak’ the standard desktop environments?”
Isn’t that a bit like asking why do the distro’s tweak a standard kernel? Or any other package for that matter. In fact that’s suppose to be one of OSSes selling points. Now if someone wants a “standard” desktop? It is very easy to get them, weither you do it yourself, or someone else does it.
“Isn’t that a bit like asking why do the distro’s tweak a standard kernel?”
I don’t think so. The distros can tweak the kernel all they like as long as things work as they are supposed to, and easy to find. But this is not happens when certain distros get a hold of these desktops. So yes, I choose my distro carefully.
Why does every other distro coming down the street feel it necessary to ‘tweak’ the standard desktop environments?
Quite frankly, because there is no standard desktop enviroment. I’ve been saying for a long time that if the OSS community refused to build one, The Corporation would.
I don’t know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but if Linux is to ever gain mass acceptance, it’ll have to ship with one desktop enviroment, one browser, one email program, one media player, etc. So, you can either take it or leave it.
I’m wondering what kind of license this is going to be covered under. Sun did a “GNOME-based” Java Desktop System that costs you minimum 50 bones to get. Let’s hope this isn’t more of the same.
So by taking bits from the other DEs and creating something that has the best of both worlds, aren’t they just creating another DE? Also IIRC Gnome uses C and KDE C++.
From what I understand, all Linux/Unix DEs use some version of an X Server (XFree86, etc) based on the X Protocol which is an undisputed standard. What if the X Protocol was simply extended based on input from a bunch of User Interface gurus so that there wouldn’t be a need for all of the various desktop environments. You wouldn’t need things like IceWM because you’d have easy to use options to decrease graphical effects like transparency and shadows.
It’s easy to assume that having extremely stringent standards will limit flexibility and usually that’s the case. But all of the weird creatures on this planet are based on one well defined standard, DNA.
That doesn’t make any sense. The X protocol mainly handles drawing. The current movements these days are to make it an even more low-level graphics engine. Eg: Xft represents fonts as just regular pixmaps, with all the complex font management handled by the client. Extending X to support full desktop-environment semantics would mean making an entirely new program.
Look at it this way: Nobody ever claims that Apple should integrate Aqua into Quartz, do they?
A little sparse on the details of what they’re planning on doing. Is there any more info on this? Mono and Evolution are probably the big things coming out of the Ximian camp. I guess they’ll probably have some consistent theme and maybe that gtk-qt-event thingie.
I’d like to see Novell take the lead on linux on the desktop and maybe get together with freedesktop.org and maybe even LSB to get some consistency going on here. I don’t care what anybody says, having two dominant desktops has hurt Linux. Novell has the chance to do something cool with the desktop. I hope they don’t blow it.
I agree with you completely that Linux needs one DE. I don’t know about one media player, or one browser. It’s not that Linux needs “one” desktop though, but one “dominant” desktop. Of course I don’t know how this is going to occur with so much investment already in QT/GTK+/KDE/Gnome. Too bad that QT doesn’t have a business-friendly license or I would say let IBM, Novell, whoever pronounce KDE as “the” desktop and let the fanboys play around with whatever they want, while those that want to make money can target the one Desktop.
I wish one Desktop Environment would be deprecated in favor of another one. I don’t care which, just make up your mind. It’s really the same issue.
The whole beauty of Linux is that I can choose the DE or WM for the job that needs to be done … While it would be nice to have a standardized set of rules for theming, major dialog boxs (e.g. file selector), windowing API … the actual implementation should be left up to the particular project.
I think this is a smart move by SuSE. Gnumeric is an excellent piece of software and should recieve more attention from SuSE. Gnumeric’s text importer does a great job on parsing ASCII output from Agilent HPLC (1100) and UV/Vis instrumentation. Gnumeric eliminates a lot of drudgery work in analyzing chemical data.
I don’t think assuming a new desktop environment is right. That would take a lot of work.
I have a cousin who works for Novell and he basically said there is an internal war on this issue. Nothing bad mind you, just there are very loyal people on both sides of the fence.
No matter what they do they will most likely favor gnome technology. To say otherwise would be crazy. I mean they got mono and everything with Ximian which is all tailored to gnome. Why would they drop this to go after a different technology that is dependent on another company (trolltech)? This isn’t a bash on KDE, which is very good, I’m just saying it doesn’t make much sense to not favor gnome from their position.
I’m sure all of the apps that Novell keeps proprietary on Linux will end up using gtk+ of some form – probably Mono. It actually does make a lot of sense to favor Gnome since it does have (1) a toolkit that is much more favorable to business (2) Mono, which is arguably a better framework than KDE and also can be used to port things from windows and vice versa.
If SUSE wants to meld the the two main desktops, okay fine,
the one thing linux gives us over windows, is that choice
I have my reasons for using gnome and some have reasons for
KDE,WM,iceWM,blackbox etc…..if you want only limited
choices… well you still have WINDOWS…
I think Novell should buy QT and make it free for business use. This makes KDE to standard desktop.
The only technologies which would actually add value from Ximian would be Mono and Redcarpet. Currently most companies (like Adobe, ARM, Boeing, Bosch, Canon, DaimlerChrysler, Disney, ESA, HP, IBM, Intel, Lockheed Martin, Motorola, NEC, Pioneer, Sharp, Siemens, etc.) which actually develop apps choose QT/KDE (instead of Gtk).
In addition most distributions default to KDE. And in terms of technology as well as usability KDE has got a lot more to offer than Gnome. That’s probably the reason why most consumers prefer KDE over Gnome.
I guess that’s also the reason why Novell/SUSE decided to ship SUSE 9.1 Personal with KDE only. And this will probably also be the reason why Novell will choose KDE in the future as well. They will probably add Redcarpet and Mono. But with GTK# and KDE#/Qt# the latter actually would offer a new world to KDE developers as well as Gnome.
> This makes KDE to standard desktop.
KDE already IS the standard desktop. It wins almost all polls in the desktop arena. It’s chosen by most of the distributions (Even more so with almost all Knoppix variants defaulting to KDE). And currently Novell/SUSE already defaults to KDE as well.
Actually I think that ANY purchase of QT by ANYONE puts the free editions under the BSD license rather than the current QPL/GPL/Proprietary arrangement under the original QPL that is still in force. Maybe us who would like to have QT freely available for both Proprietary and Free and Open Source Software should consider getting together and purchasing it for the purpose of bringing it under BSD licensing under the original QPL Just as Blender 3d was purchased by its users for GPL ing.
*sigh*
And it starts all over again.
People, “standard” desktop in the OSS world is what the end-user chooses to uses on a regular basis[1]. Not the outcome of a popularity contest. Or what your distro has picked. Remember this isn’t Windows. Be thankful that one can at least have the luxury of an argument.
[1] How do the tri-(or greater)-WM users fall in this picture?
Quite frankly, because there is no standard desktop enviroment. I’ve been saying for a long time that if the OSS community refused to build one, The Corporation would.
I don’t know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but if Linux is to ever gain mass acceptance, it’ll have to ship with one desktop enviroment, one browser, one email program, one media player, etc. So, you can either take it or leave it.
I totally agree with your statement, however the current Linux user base don’t want there OS to be more popular than Windows. Look at all the worms and viruses that Windows users are subjected too, this isn’t because Windows is any less secure than Linux it’s because Windows is more popular. An up-to-date Windows box is just as secure as an up-to-date linux box. What makes a machine insecure is dumb users. Windows has the market share (of dumb users), if the tables were turned, Linux would be the OS suffering at the hand of worms and viruses.
IMHO the [knome|gde] project will fail (or become, just another desktop enironment) because the current users of Gnome/Kde aren’t willing to compromise.
I believe a better starting point for a project such as this would be to attempt to merge the GTK and QT toolkits into a single toolkit that both Gnome and KDE use instead of their current toolkits.
This appears to be simply redifining a choice, not taking away current choices.
KDE isn’t going anywhere, GNOME isn’t either. It simply appears that Novell is finally answering my question “why purchase both a primarily GNOME and primarily KDE technology”. This used to be my main reason for thinking perhaps Novell was brain dead and simply trying to convince people they really did care about Linux, but really had no clue about it.
If this is entirely successful, there will result a new choice. “Do I give a crap about QT vs GTK, KDE vs GNOME, C vs C++?”. It would appear SUSE will become the choice for all those that answer “no” to those three religious arguments.
I use Linux because I believe collectively, its far supperior to anything else I have used. For two years now, I have gone out of my way to make GIMP fit into a KDE based desktop, to make Konqueror fit into a GNOME based desktop. It drives me crazy having everything look so un-alike. Windows has at least 3 different shells I can think of available for it, and I have made no attempt to look for any alternatives to explorer. If choice is your reason for using Linux, you need to reconsider your decision.
I think, depending on how this is pulled off, this could be one of the best things to happen to the Linux desktop since freedesktop.org was formed in 2000. Hopefully most of Novells collective work will find its way back into the upstream versions and fd.o also, but more then anything, I can’t wait to see how they (Novell) proceed with this.
/me waves QtGTK and GTK-QT signs around again, hoping someone notices.
OSS is deprecated already in kernel 2.6.
The best thing would be a new API above XLIB, with
– A wrapper for GTK compatibility
– A wrapper for QT compatibility (no longer license issue!)
– A direct wrapper for Mono
Of course this new API should be close to Winform for simple and efficient binding to Mono, even if this new API is native (C/C++) and not CLR-ish.
The new DE could be completely rewritten with this new API (no longer GTK nor QT). This is the only way to build a modern DE without sacrifying compatibility with GTK and QT apps. To gently kill both GTK and QT at the same time is the only way to end up this stupid war. IMHO, both GTK and QT are aging now. Time is coming for a new, unified and modern API.
I think that Novell should help port the Mono framework to Qt. This will combine the advances that have been made by the Ximian folks with the more stable codebase established by Trolltech. That will be the future. KDE vs. GNOME will just become a matter of taste. They will both be based on the same framework and will be nothing more than different approaches to looking at the same thing in the way that Web browsers are all designed to interface with HTML, Javascript, CSS, XML, etc.
Open standards are good but they are meaningless if they are not interoperable. I believe that Novell has the opportunity to bring compatibility and unity to the open source movement. I just hope that other companies like Red Hat aren’t too stubborn to go along with the future.
It’s about creating a new desktop theme for both worlds, nothing else.
I totally agree. Lets see a new toolkit, providing all the features available through GTK and Qt, but with wrappers for C, C++ and mono based languages.
Although seemingly drastic, I think this would help propel linux forward. All it would be doing is what windows devs have used for ever – a number of different toolkits all using the windows core technology, ie provided by the OS.
Novell are certainly bringing great enthusiasm to the linux arena, and I for one congratulate them in pushing linux on the desktop forward.
What they’re saying is they’re taking the best parts (i.e. components) from both operating systems and merging them together.
So…
You have a Novell Desktop:
1. It uses the gnome panel (that Application & Action menu jobby is greate)
2. It uses the KDE filemanage, easier to configure.
3. It picks the best apps of the bunch like redhat.
4. It uses unified theme engines like GTK-QT
5. It offers a unified configuration utility.
6 ….
7 . Profit! 😉
Not a merge, but a new toolkit with wrapper for GTK/QT apps. I see new native widgets and new native control panel. The new DE could also use OpenGL natively.
– Some good idea of qt/KDE (architecure) could be kept, but not the code, because of licence issues.
– Some code of GTK/Gnome could be reused, with refactoring.
I thing the community + big guns (Novell…) can do it quite quickly, quicker than in 96/97. The main problem is not technical, it’s all about egos and discipline.
That’s a huge job – you’ve even got the languages issue to consider (GTK has always supported procedural languages, KDE has always been OOP only). I’d say they’d go for the easy option first, with a bit of intelligent clipboarding along the way.
However porting KDE / Gnome to something like E17 would be cool 🙂
Guys,
That is what Ximian is doing right now. They are creating a unified/language transparent ABI: mono. That is why Migual is so eager to push Mono. GTK with C, or QT with C++ will only attract a small portion of developers, no matter what.
It is obvious that future is in something “new”: mono.
1) It is laguage neutral, so I assume zillions of different languages will be available for CLI/Mono/net , leting all the programmers to use the same API set to code without sacrifising their favorite lang.
2) As it manages the code, it will be platform neutral , enabling same Linux code to be run on different hardware. This is particularly important when one thinks about all the ports of linux to different platforms.
3) It can be managed easily. You want to use a native OpenGL desktop? Just tweak your Virtual Machine. Rest of the code will need no modification.
4) And most importantly, It is damn good documented (by the great evil Microsoft).
I believe what Novell is talking about is:
Both Gnome and QT being replaced by a mono oriented, Gnome based distro. KDE? I guess QT/Trolltech issue will push them out.
Just look at the sentence: `Right now, Suse 9.1 has nothing to do with what we are planning”.
This does not sound like they are going for KDE….
(No flame, just my 50 cent)
I’ve been reading about this Gnome / KDE thing for quite a while… even before I used Linux.
No guru or geek here, just Joe Average’s more informed cousin perhaps but still with a six pack — thing is I don’t care if it’s Gnome or KDE… if it works then GREAT!
If corporations are targeting dumba**es like me and think that it really doesn’t matter if it’s Knome or GDE just as long as it works and works great then I think they may really be on to something here.
> 2. It uses the KDE filemanage, easier to configure.
Hmmm… is that really what is important to you ? an easy-to-configure file manager ?
I tend to think that ease of use is more important than ease of configuration… and that good defaults are what matters.
Really, I just can’t understand how you can justify the choice of one app by its ease of configuration.
If you want to promote Konqueror, say that it has flawless and integrated support for file, smb, ftp, http, ssh protocols for example (better than Nautilus-2.4 from my experience).
iFolder will feature a Gtk# (UNIX/Linux), a Cocoa (MacOS X) and a Windows.Forms (Windows) interface. That sure sounds like they are going to use GNOME/Gtk. They will probably still distribute KDE with the standard SuSE dist and implement cross-desktop features as freedesktop.org standards.
Cheers…
That is the main reason Novell probably bought Ximian. That and Evolution and Red carpet. Being about mono would probably favour GNOME too, which is why there is talk on GNOME mailing lists about adoptiong mono. Its about getting everyone on board. Personally I would like mono to be an option on top of GNOME. The core apps are programmed in whatever, but people can easily add on to it in whichever way they prefer. I think the fact that a company like Novell is adopting mono should ease the fears of many mono doubters. I doubt that Microsoft would like to go head to head over a programming language in a court of law and over something for which prior art exists (JVM – in a way). I do have my doubts about American Law, but I think it will be hard for Microsoft, the convicted monopoly to try convince a court that a million developers’ skills belong to them.
I don’t get it… so people are basicly speculating that Novell bought Ximian only because of Mono/RedCarpet and SuSE because of KDE, right? Now what if Novell bought Ximian because of Mono/XD2 and SuSE simply because of the distibution itself?
Novell wanted to become a big Linux vendor in a short time, so they had to get high-standart very quickly – which translates into delivering something as good as the best: RedHat or SuSE Linux. Look what SUN did… Novell went with SuSE because it is esablished and popular – buying them to get full control but at the same time save money AND TIME compared to what it would take to reach that competitive level on their own. They could’ve done so with RedHat but perhaps SuSE was just… cheaper? It would be silly to assume Novell bought SuSE because of their involvement in the KDE project.
Just look at the iFolder CVS, the Linux version is based on GTK#. And that’s exactly what Novell will use in the future: GTK. Not QT. If they wanted to rule the Linux desktop market with KDE they would’ve bought Trolltech and used QT on all the platforms they support. But this is just *not* what Novell wants to do with Mono. Mono enables them to write software and easily create “native” GUIs (GTK on Linux, SWF on Windows and Cocoa on Mac OS X). Whatever you do, whatever fancy theme-engine you come up with: you will never be able to design a GUI (say in QT) that fits equally well into Linux, Windows and Max OS X. It will be easy to build for all platforms but it will only be able to use the common denominator then it comes to interface guidelines. Think “yes-no”/”no-yes” button-order and look at Java: cross-platform but equally bad integrated interface on every platform… Novell is doing the Right Thing^TM.
As for the GDE/Knome debate: Novell will most likely try to push Mono into Gnome. If they don’t succeed we might see a fork here – but this will be a Gnome fork, not a KDE fork.
The real beaty of Linux is CHOICE. I.e the
fact that I can choose amongst various Desktop
Enviroments which one *I* prefer.
Then, I can sit back and see major new good stuff
that I would like to have, only coming to the OTHER
desktop enviroment, the one I didn’t choose.
From what I can see, it would appear that Novell (at least for now) are standardising on GTK (and by extension, I’d guess, Gnome) – they own Ximian, the leading company in Gnome development, and having just played with the iFolder source a bit, they seem to have a choice of Windows, Aqua, and GTK frontends for it – with a decidedly empty landscape when it comes to QT frontends.
They said they will put in the best fetures of both. Well what are they? None were mentioned.
You wan’t to make Linux polished and shiny?
Answer these questions then:
* Why can’t a distribution company PAY (yes, PAY)
graphic artists and documentation writers to work
on desktop branding and documentation? It can even
pay existing open source contributors to these areas,
so they can do their work FULL TIME.
* Why can’t a distribution company take on their payroll
TENS or HUNDREDS of developers and assign them to KDE
and/or GNOME? IBM does this, but on the server/infrastructure/kernel level. Do it on the Desktop
level.
* Why can’t a bloody Distribution company buy up
Trolltech and open QT to LGPL/BSD licence?
* Why can’t a bloody Distribution company PAY someone
to finish GTK’s documentation?
I mean Microsoft or Apple don’t get this “polish”
stuff for free (in monetary terms). Apple and MS
invest BILLIONS to make their O.Ss.
Buy the ticket, take the ride: just as Apple PAYED
millions $$ to polish and make Mach/FreeBSD OS X,
i.e desktop ready, OPEN SOURCE distributors, DO THE
SAME!!!
You can even add your CLOSED applications in, like
a media player with licences for all codecs, etc,
as apple does with iLife. Thus, you get people to
choose your stuff over competitors.
>> They said they will put in the best fetures of both.
>> Well what are they? None were mentioned.
Seeing iFolder’s Nautilus (and not Konqueror) integration i think it’s save to read this as “add missing KDE features to GNOME” or “adding everything KDE users currently miss to GNOME”
@foljs
>> Why can’t a distribution company PAY graphic artists
what about garrett lesage? jimmac? tigert?
>> Why can’t a distribution company take on their payroll
>> TENS or HUNDREDS of developers
i think they employ as many developers as they can afford…
>> Why can’t a bloody Distribution company buy up Trolltech
no point in doing this. GTK is already free/free on all platforms…
Does it really matter which DE will win, Gnome or KDE? I think not.
At the moment, I think KDE has the best technology (KParts, KIO, KWallet) and Gnome has the best UI. So I would think that fixing the KDE UI would be easier than fixing the core of Gnome.
Btw. interesting thing in the KDE documentation: they say that the API/framework should work in such a way, that an API is not necessary for a consistent UI. I actually think they are right.
Additionally, I don’t think all those many SuSE users are happy when they upgrade and find themselves with a completely different desktop.
‘Does it really matter which DE will win, Gnome or KDE? I think not.’
IMO in everyday use KDE and GNOME are very similar, neither of them have any massive advantages over the other. I couldn’t care less which wins, as long as one does eventually win and it’s human interface guidelines become the standard for Linux apps.
Almost anything would be better than the inconsistent jumble of application UI designs you get at the moment. It makes Linux feel like an amateurish kludge when you mix together KDE, GNOME and other apps.
>> Does it really matter which DE will win, Gnome or KDE?
no, the whole “desktop war” is a big joke
>> Additionally, I don’t think all those many SuSE users
>> are happy when they upgrade and find themselves with a
>> completely different desktop.
but would GNOME users be if they would be forced to use KDE? i think they wouldn’t, i for myself certainly wouldn’t want to use KDE… if you compare how KDE and GNOME developed in the last 1-2 years, i think many ppl will really soon switch over to GNOME…
BUT: noone is forcing anyone. you can all install/use whatever DE you like, a fact taht won’t change!
> but would GNOME users be if they would be forced
> to use KDE? i think they wouldn’t, i for myself
About 95% of the people who are using SUSE Linux are working with KDE as the default. Many of them chose SUSE Linux specifically because of their excellent KDE desktop.
It’s a safe bet that these people would become rather angry if they found themselves in an environment which is still 2 years behind KDE in terms of usability (filedialog, consistent bookmarks / addressbooks, etc.) and technology (C instead of an OO language).
If those people get angry then they’ll just move on to another distro. The thing is Novell has to do some branding for their product. If Novell does care about the desktop then the defacto KDE Suse setup will have to change.
Your 100% correct about Gnome being technologically behind KDE by a couple years, but the thing is I don’t see Novell being reliant on Trolltech for their toolkit. Heck I would have rather had Novell had bought trolltech and make the QT license more business friendly, and just rolled their own distro, pumping in some resource for QT bindings for Mono(even if it is a lot harder because of C++). The thing is, if Novell can pump in some more resources to Mono and Mono eventually becomes accepted by core Gnome developers, I could see Gnome leapfrogging KDE on the technology front.
“If those people get angry then they’ll just move on to another distro.”
In Germany Suse is a synonyme for Linux. There’s nothing else.
Well, JB, germany… I am german, too. I used SuSE until 7.x, then changed to RedHat 7.x because it was much better. But also on SuSE i never really used KDE, SuSE always had a very well packaged GNOME desktop. Most ppl I now use Gentoo, btw…
Also let me say a few words to this nonsense:
>> Your 100% correct about Gnome being technologically
>> behind KDE by a couple years
lol… good joke indeed. Even better if you read Peter’s arguments:
>> filedialog, consistent bookmarks / addressbooks
– the open/save dialog in GTK 2.4 is the best one i’ve seen ANYWHERE… simple, fast, beautiful: a dream come true!
– bookmarks: I use Firebird as my webbrowser so i can’t really say something about this. But I also don’t see the problem, I don’t use my _file manager_ to browse the internet, you know…
– addressbooks: also *very* nice in GNOME… just look at how Evo can interact with Gaim and this will even get better very soon
So what i think is that all you “angry KDE users” sould have a look at a current GNOME release (2.6 is out… well kind of) and I’m sure you will like it. It’s not as if I’m not trying KDE now and then, im always curious and often build a current version using Konstruct. Only thing is that I can’t really see that the project is still moving, there where improvements rom 1.x to 2.x but what exactly did change in 3.x? when I did a build of 3.1 about 2 month ago I was amazed to still find the old cluttered Kontrol Center (or whatever it is called) not much different from what it was in 2.x. Look at how GNOME developed in this timeframe and you will be blown away!
The fact remains that Gnome is behind KDE technologically, specifically something like KParts. It’s not that Gnome doesn’t have Bonobo, but nobody uses it. Why? Because it’s a pain in the ass. The whole Gnome framework down to Gtk+ is inferior to the KDE framework when it comes down to ease of use. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen on Gnome messageboards where core Gnome developers call Bonobo a failure. Personally, I could care less what Novell chooses for a desktop, but it’s not going to be the status quo. I’m betting that Mono is the core technology that Novell is thinking about. It’ll never be 100% compatible with .NET but it’s good tech, blows away anything Gnome is now offering to developers, and can make porting to windows a helluva lot easier.
Mono doesn’t have to imply GNOME. If you check out KDE’s CVS-digest:
http://members.shaw.ca/dkite/mar192004.html
Mono bindings for KDE were committed recently to CVS. The quick work is a result of a combination of the SMOKE library and the Kalyptus tool, which make it much easier to automatically generate language bindings for KDE.
Woh! Good stuff. The first I’ve heard of this. Thanks for the link.
Actually I think that If they aren’t Going to Buy QT then maybe Novel should base their New Desktop on the WxWidgets wrapper for GTK and help the WxWidgets project improve their framework to more effectively compete with QT and TrollTech. This would make an object oriented C++ desktop environment that is free/free (for both open source and proprietary programmers) that is more fully compatible with
GTK/GNOME than a KDE/QT merger which will be particularly messy license wise as long as a separate company (TrollTech) owns the proprietary QT technology.
I really can’t go with Mono as the basis of a new desktop as long as its technology of origin is owned by a known abusive monopoly that is also known to have bankrolled the litigation attack on Linux by SCO and loaded with software patent bombs.
If we do think that a KDE/QT-GTK/GNOME merger is the answer (as Novell seems to do) to the desktop problem than all the companies interested in proprietary software under Linux (Borland, Novell, IBM, SciTech, MetroWorks, Sun) must consider going together on buying out TrollTech and placing QT under an LGPL/WxWidgets like licensing arrangement in order for that to ever happen.
Ughh..I just want to scream
This is by far is worst situation OSS platforms (i.e Linux) has had for the past several years. And it’s unbelievably stupid. I wish Linus himself had participated in these wars, because it would swayed the fight in one direction a lot sooner (hero worship is a powerful thing). I’m glad Novell is somewhat stepping in and doing their what they can. Whether their approach matters for the Linux desktop as whole remains to be seen, but I think it will in big ways.
As for Mono being “evil”…Well, “Choice” is good, right? Since the OSS world can’t do a simple thing like “make up it’s farkin mind”, Mono is _essential_, and still caters to all-inclusive nature of OSS development.