After Microsoft released their .Net framework everyone started realizing that J2EE is complex, says Debu Panda in his editorial. Elsewhere, while acknowledging obstacles remain, a Sun official left open the possibility that Sun might offer its Java programming language under an open source format.Sun Microsystems at its quarterly “software summit” Tuesday announced that the beta version of Java Studio Creator, its drag-and-drop, rapid application development platform, will be available April 8 for download, with general access for the final build scheduled for sometime in June.
Open Source Java Still Possible; Java Creator; J2EE Too Complex?
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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One of the many things that people like Berlind say that is truly pathetic is the idea that John Q. is capable of making really cool and useful apps with no real knowledge of Java and a visual tool.
http://www.blindmindseye.com/bmeblog/archives/000097.html has some other objects to Berlind’s “commentary” that I have.
If the average user wants to write software for their own use they’re going to need a language that is very simple. Java is definitely not that language. Python or groovy are the two best languages.
Let’s face it, John Q. isn’t anymore capable of making their own software for complex activities than the average code monkey is at pulling out a CAD and designing a new building.
would be a new python environment built on parrot that’s fully interoperable with perl6, has a GUI toolkit that is modeled on Swing (instead of JButton, something like PButton) and uses wxWidgets. Parrot gives PERL6, Python and Ruby the chance to beat Microsoft’s .NET and Java.
i never understood the python hype. ruby is 10 times a better language. check it out sometime, you python people might be pleasantly surprised. http://www.ruby-lang.org
>would be a new python environment built on parrot that’s >fully interoperable with perl6, has a GUI toolkit that is >modeled on Swing (instead of JButton, something like PButton) >and uses wxWidgets. Parrot gives PERL6, Python and Ruby the >chance to beat Microsoft’s .NET and Java.
It might dampen Java but I doubt very much it would beat .NET, .NET is so so much more. In any case isn’t parrot largely vapourware?
Java has been adopted as a powerful language by quite a few.
The only purpose of this article is to keep bashing Sun, that’s been the Linux Zealots wish for half a year now and media seem to jump on the same train.
What’s wrong with being rational puuuhleaaze!
We have so many frameworks, so many diffrent ways to do the same thing and so many people/groups creating the same things in Java…
Wouldnt it be better if they all sat down together and created a better- more productive, more powerful environment for development.
Microsoft has always focused on simplicity.. and they have over taken a large number of top players with this simple mantra..
I think its time that the Java community starts looking at this and does something before its too late ..
although i like java and do use it. j2ee is the main reason for uising it in large organisations. but it is unecesarily complex. complexity itself is no bad thing – but confusion and inconsistency and duplication of efforts, and overlapping of domains is a problem… and java frameworks, have lomng suffered that. java imaging (awt, swing, java2d, java advanced imaging JAI) … is a bit mess…
i do believe that if any one of the more modern languages (although python was aroubnd before java) implements a business framework and does it well, it will effectively make java look very unattractive. portability is not such a concern – large organisations will pay whatveer it takes to the run the apps they need. but it helps of course. and the extensions to python, although they evolve, are a much more measured and transparent and documented process.
pythonEE? rubyEE?
the whole point of j2ee is to provide abstractions to common business processes. but its telling that when organsiations require good j2ee developers, they are actuallu taking people hwo who know the details, the vagaries of the jvm, the exceptions to the rules.
rather than good business process architects – which is what should have happened if the j2ee dream was to have come true.
and this is why i think j2ee, although useful, has failed in its core aim.
I did some work as a JSP web-developer (before the company went out of business!) and have since been teaching myself the J2EE platform (JSP is only a TINY part of it).
The thing you notice about programing J2EE is the amount of bureaucratic red tape you have to go through. Such is the focus on the “perfect architecture” that the programmer can be forced to jump through hoops. For example, for a midrange website, a lot of books reccommend JSP, EAR and Struts, which of course requires a knowlege of EL, Servlets, and JNDI. This is a huge amount of code and complexity.
For a midrange site, PHP/MySQL is the best option, but if you want to do it via Java all you should be using is JSP. Personally I’d ditch EL too, as it obscures what’s actually going on, and can lead to awkward to crack bugs. It was introduced to fix the MVC problem with JSP webpages (the perfect architecture again). If that’s what you want you should use template technologies (there’s tons around).
I’ve looked at C# and I like what I see. It’s a bit like Delphi in that it concentrates on making simple the things you do everyday, and leaving complex things to one side so the coder doesn’t have to use them. C# and ASP.NET will make great inroads into the midrange and small professional sectors, Sun should be worried.
Actually, 0.1.0 of Parrot is already out. Not all that useful yet, but it’s fun to see what they’ve got working already none the less.
http://www.parrotcode.org/
What about clean room implementations ? They can be, and are, Open Source. In the real life their development is slow and lags a lot behind Sun JDK. Why is that so ?
DG
what is a “clean room” implementatgion?
is it one done correctly with no ugly optimisations?
I never understood the Ruby hype. I mean, come on, that language does not have even forced indentation!
Its an implementation that is done without looking at Sun’s source code.
I’m a linux zealot, (ms sucks), and I love developing in java. The performance is great, everything beyond simple syntax I need to know is in javadoc within easy reach of the browser. I interactively tinker in jdeveloper all day and produce production telco and db gui and service based apps used in major call centers every day. If you can manage any shell script of any kind and have an attention span longer than two mtv videos so can you. Sure I’ve written one off fax server and even database replication systems in perl which could have as easily been in python but to think they are some sort of end all tool to develop full commercially acceptable applications is not even laughable, c’mon kids, schools out. Oh yeah, LINUX is the perfect vessel to hold the jvm for my fully cross platform applications to achieve their maximum performance in any enterprise
If you are not doing your web sites with Apache Cocoon, java, XML and XSLT you are doing it wrong, you deserve php and mysql but your customers deserver better. Building one site will change your entire life and you will never use anything else. JSP/PHP etc. is crap, wasting your efforts putting your logic, style and content in one lump to be discarded without any hope of reuse. XML/XSLT is the way.
There existing two possibilities:
Either Sun helps to OpenSource Java or using Kaffe or gcj.
Have a look at
http://www.kaffe.org/screenshots.shtml
the screenshots are updated.
The only problem of kaffe and gcj is, that there existing no Swing.
But SwingWT runs on Kaffe very well. SwingWT is the Swing-API based on SWT.
And if you prefer Lightwight-Toolkits use LwVCL, which runs on Kaffe very well, too.
Or use Thinlet or Skinlet (http://www.realchat.com/thinlet/), which all run on Kaffe.
I think, there is no necessity to use Java.
If Java is OpenSource, than it’s ok, to use it.
But so long Java isn’t OpenSource, I don’t want to use it.
Stenley
Come on! Ruby IS python without forced indentation. Those who advocate Ruby are typically those who are pissed off at having to keep track of their tabs in python. That’s the reason it never really took off much outside of Japan…we already have it in the form of python!
omnivector wrote:
> i never understood the python hype. ruby is 10 times a better language.
Please explain.
snowflake wrote:
> [re. Python] .NET is so so much more.
From what I can tell of Python, it’s quite extensible — enough to add whatever functionality enterprise users need, I would think.
tech_user wrote:
> pythonEE?
Oooh, I think I like “python enterprise framework”. Jeez, using that word so much makes me think I’m writing about Star Trek.
No time so I’ll make this short.
I used to use slackware and then gentoo at home for months.
Use ASP.NET to write business apps at work.
Wanted to switch to J2EE + Jakarta Struts instead of .NET.
Consider myself competent programmer have degree in comp sci know C, assembly, blah blah can write.
No way in hell I will ever switch from ASP.NET to the j2ee strut, etc. solution. It is a grunt work nightmare.
I am a hero at office using .NET b/c of productivity. With J2EE+struts I would look like a clown.
End of story. Thanks.