Sun was quick to deny published reports today that it plans to open source Java in the next few months. The company is working on the project, but any transition to open source is closer to a year away. Simon Phipps, chief open-source officer for Sun, made a comment he said was misconstrued at the Open Source Business Conference in London earlier this week concerning Sun’s efforts to release Java as an entirely open source project.
If they’re quick to deny it it usually means it’s
1) True
or
2) Has legal implications
or
3) Someone’s going to get fired
If they’re quick to deny it it usually means it’s
1) True
or
2) Has legal implications
or
3) Someone’s going to get fired
In this particular case, all three are definitely not true. Just like Solaris, opening Java will take a while, and it should.
No one will be fired except maybe the journalist that twisted Simon’s words so much that it was blatantly false by the time he published the article.
… doesn’t matter all that much. The JCP has pretty much actively guided the development of Java, so it’s not as if customer feature requests have been ignored. The real question is what kind of open source license Sun will actually release the Java sources under. I’m somewhat skeptical that they will go with a straight GNU license. Even though the sources will be open, Sun will probably play it close to the vest and retain some ongoing rights (including the ability to revoke the license at any time). Time will tell.
I’m somewhat skeptical that they will go with a straight GNU license.
I can tell you now it won’t be GPL. I hard-pressed to think of anything Sun released under pure GPL; they dislike Linux too much to want to make it easy for Linux distros, and they want to keep control after all.
No control = loss of primary Java feature.
What are you talking about? Sun has spent a lot of effort to make Java distributable in competing operating systems, even if the license is not free enough for some OSes.
I am a FreeBSD user so I wouldn’t know about the current state of Java on your Linux distribution of choice, but as far as I know Sun has provided the FreeBSD developers with internal test kits and has been very willing to allow certification of the JDK on FreeBSD. There are now certified binary packages which can be installed with a one-liner. That sounds easy to me. Is it really so different on Linux?
No control = loss of primary Java feature.
Sun will always control the Java trademark, no matter what license the choose when they release their implementation as open source / free software.
I can tell you now it won’t be GPL. I hard-pressed to think of anything Sun released under pure GPL;
You didn’t look very hard then. SUN has released quite a few things under the licenses created by the Free Software Foundation. These items include:
LGPL
* OpenOffice – http://www.openoffice.org/license.html
GPL
* Open Sparc – http://www.opensparc.org
* Looking Glass – https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/
* Evolution Java Enteprise Server Calendar – http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/evolution-jescs/COPYING?rev=1.2&view=m…
* Sun is one of the largest contributors to the GNU/Linux operating system and continues to maintain much of the code that GNU/Linux users execute every time they boot the operating system.
* Sun contributed most of the documentation and online help to the GNOME desktop project. Sun’s contribution of the accessibility framework to GNOME allows desktop Linux to achieve Section 508 compliance (to make their electronic and information technology accessible to people with disabilities).
There are other things too, but you can look them up.
they dislike Linux too much to want to make it easy for Linux distros, and they want to keep control after all.
That is an unproven theory on your part, and certainly doesn’t fit with SUN’s consistent and valuable contributions to the Linux community. Indeed, they have even partnered with Canonical to ensure that Ubuntu, for example, runs very well on their hardware. What you’re saying is a slap in the face to many of the engineers at SUN, and to many community members in the OpenSolaris community. It certainly isn’t true from any indication I’ve seen.
@binarycrusader:
Very very well said.
I’m a big Linux user myself, and I see Sun as being very pro Linux, and adding a lot of code to Linux and open source.
Sun’s only stupid action in dealing with Linux was their badmouthing of Red Hat last year. But that was okay, since Red Hat is both a partner (they sell their hardware with Red Hat or SuSE if the customer desires it) and a competitor (Solaris is aimed squarely at Red Hat’s business model).
But apart from that, Sun is a huge friend of Linux and open source.
OSS advocates who complain about Sun need to wake up.
they dislike Linux too much to want to make it easy for Linux distros, and they want to keep control after all.
I don’t think Sun has anything against Linux distros or BSDs, otherwise they wouldn’t bother to craft the new, simplified distribution license for Java 6.
I can tell you now it won’t be GPL
They never ruled the GPL out. After all, source code licensed under the GPL would be a great deterrent to MS!
Excellent Point!
If Sun released Java under the GPL, MS would be hard pressed to try to undermind Java by creating incompatible version. Either they would have to use the GPLed code, thus making their modifications GPL as well. Being open, any incompatiblity MS tried to build into their version of the Java engine could be fixed (and would be quickly). Or Ms would have to rewrite the whole thing themselves, make it as feature rich, maintain it, then make it intentionally incompatible to undermind Java. That seems extremely costly and doesn’t seem very feasible.
The other player Sun would have to worry about is IBM. But IBM needs the community more than the community needs IBM, and if IBM started messing around with Java to play games with Sun, I think IBM would be in for a rude awakening (though I have a feeling they already know what would happen if they did).
Really, the only way Sun could lose control over Java if they used the GPL is by giving up being the leader in Java developement. I mean, someone like IBM could contribute more to the developement of Java and thusly have more influence than Sun. But IBM’s efforts would be as available to Sun to use as IBM. So I can see the why not(?), I think there is something of an answer to that question.
Why would MS want to create its own Java implementation? They already tried and lost in court, so they created .NET which is comepletely closed source. And does everything Java does, except than for being available on ALL platforms, which really takes away the advantage of Java over other languages (as in compile ones run everywhere).
I can tell you now it won’t be GPL. I hard-pressed to think of anything Sun released under pure GPL; they dislike Linux too much to want to make it easy for Linux distros, and they want to keep control after all.
You should further the scope of your reading before you make a statement like this. Below is from Jonathan Schwartz’s blog –
“we’re now making serious progress on open sourcing Java (and despite the cynics, using a GPL license is very much *on* the table)”
I’m somewhat skeptical that they will go with a straight GNU license. Even though the sources will be open, Sun will probably play it close to the vest and retain some ongoing rights (including the ability to revoke the license at any time).
No OSS license on the planet can be “revoked”. Once the code is licensed, it’s licensed. They can pull their own distribution of the code under that license, but can’t revoke the license and can’t prevent anyone from doing their own distribution. That’s essentially what happened to Interbase/Firebird.
I can very well see Sun using the GPL for Java, with some kind of exception to ensure folks that using the Java Classlibs doesn’t put your actual application under the GPL, but anything within the JDK/JVM itself (and the java.* and javax.* namespace) would be GPL.
In any case, I have no doubt that if/when Sun releases Java, they will release in a similar manner as OpenSolaris and Glassfish. They will host and sponsor the community, and they will reuqire copyright sharing from all contributors to the JDK and JRE. This gives them the flexibility to dual license the distribution as they see fit, since they will be the sole holder of copyright across the entire source base, even though copyright is shared with indvidiaul contributors.
This decision really boils down to how they’re making money off of the embedded market.
The potential motivation for using the GPL is basically to continue to leverage revenue generated via the embedded market. The server and client side of Java for mainstream computers is essentially free and has been free for some time. Obviously, Apple, IBM, and BEA no doubt kick back something for each JDK they distribute, or through the process of validating and acquiring the Java logo on their software.
But the secret weapon today in the embedded and handset market. By licensing the OSS Java under GPL, this will prevent the Handset world from being able to use Java with either a license from Sun, or the willingness to open up the JVM and JDK for the handset.
Odds are most handset companies are not willing to do that, and I think that Sun would really like to get a $1 per cell phone sold on the planet (or whatever royalty they can negotiate).
With a CDDL version, someone could create a free, yet closed, version for handsets. While the company make such a JVM would have to release altered files under the CDDL, they’re under no obligation to supply any new files, and it’s fairly trivial to add the proprietary changed that a company would want to protect in to CDDL free copyrighted files rather than within the JDK/JRE source tree itself — simply placing the glue logic that links out to the new code in the CDDL files instead.
That would cut a potential revenue stream from Sun.
With the GPL they can dual license and get their cake and eat it too.
We’ll know more when Sun releases their income numbers from Java. They’ve mentioned that they intend to break those numbers out and release them sometime.
I don’t get it – Sun is very friendly to the OS community, and the OS is there, even if it’s not from Sun – so why bother?
if they take their time now it means there wont be implications later (ala SCO when they released their own linux..)
Apparently SCO is planning on re-releasing a new version of Caldera.
Does that mean they will have to sue themselves?
[i]Apparently SCO is planning on re-releasing a new version of Caldera.[i]
That was a hoax.
Even if they were going to release a new version of Caldera they of course would not have to sue themselves. They say they own the rights so it wouldn’t matter if they released a Linux-based operating system. They don’t mind anybody using Linux as long as the people who use it pay SCO
With all of the retreats that Open Source and the open Internet have made in the last few weeks, the hope of an upcoming release of Java into Open Source was the only good news we have received recently. This is like stealing our last gleam of hope, or like taking a baby away from its mother. ^^
He is just saying that Open sourcing Java won’t happen in less than a year. However, Sun already made a public commitment, so it will happen eventually.
Retards make up their minds already, as this is getting really stupid: “We’ll make it open source”…”No, we won’t make it open source”!
Why don’t you read the article again, and focus on comprehending what it actually says this time.
Edited 2006-07-01 20:28
Open-source Java is not completely “there” yet; it hasn’t passed the JCK. It may take less time for Sun to open HotSpot than for one of the open-source VMs to get the JCK and pass it.
I need another open source maybe story about Sun’s Java like I need another hole in my head.
1) Sun has CDDL, why not release it under that.
2) The JCP will still dictate what is in the specification, so any issues about the lack of features being added aren’t going to get solved by opensourcing.
3) Opensourcing Java is the opensourcing of the Sun implementation of Java, and if it is opensourced, the simpe fact is, it’ll still need to conform to the Java specification to be called Java.
4) If there is a fork at a later date, the simple fact remains that it can’t be called Java unless it conforms to the specifications, atleast if the source code is released under a CDDL licence, then FreeBSD will be able to distribute the modified source code tarball rather than having to get users to first down the patches, then download the java source code seperately THEN download and install the Linux Java etc. etc.
5) Opensourcing Java will not only benefit Sun, but benefit customers and developers in their ability to provide Java compatibility on their platform rather than being at the mercy of having to either write a clean one or beg Sun for the source code under a more acceptable licence agreement.
1) Sun has CDDL, why not release it under that.
Because apparently every darn zealot that has been out for SUN’s blood over open sourcing java thinks the GPL is the only open source license out there. I personally hope it is the CDDL. That would be great for BSD distributions.
5) Opensourcing Java will not only benefit Sun, but benefit customers and developers in their ability to provide Java compatibility on their platform rather than being at the mercy of having to either write a clean one or beg Sun for the source code under a more acceptable licence agreement.
I don’t buy this argument. What *major* mainstream operating system platform that is a big percentage of the market can you name that doesn’t already have an official SUN Java implementation or a SUN certified one? There aren’t any as far as I know.
Linux x86 32-bit & 64-bit, Solaris SPARC 32-bit & 64-bit / x86 32-bit & 64-bit, and Windows x86 32-bit all have an official JDK. Even Apple has an officially blessed JDK for Mac OS X! Only the niche platforms don’t have an official SUN implementation.
No one knows for certain that open sourcing Java will have any major benefit at all until it happens. Any speculation as to it’s benefit is just that, speculation. Some group of people, no matter what SUN does, are going to be unhappy after Java is open sourced.
Edited 2006-07-02 04:59
There are a lot of very good points on this thread.
Sun has been slow to open sourcing Java for 3 primary reasons:
1. Maintaining across the board Java compatibility
2. Licensing and making sure there are no patent or proprietary licensing conflicts
3. Part of Sun’s business interests
Let’s look at these –
1 – No problem here. There are already open source Java implementations, and several proprietary ones. Yet Java cross platform capabilities seem to be maintained pretty well. Plus, Sun can always keep the Java brand name, which gives them ultimate say on what can be called Java, and thus they can still enforce compatibility.
Also, when one looks at other cross platform languages, like Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, etc, the open source license that these live under has not encouraged forking. Compatibility has, by and large, been maintained fantastically.
2 – This is very tricky. IP is a huge minefield, especially with all the patent trolls out there. Sun needs proceed very carefully.
3 – Schwartz claims that Sun makes money on Java (with compatibility test kits, proprietary licensing – IBM, BEA, etc, and Java Micro edition on cell phones). However, the amount profit, or if they are indeed in the black with Java, seems very dubious because of the huge investment Sun puts into R&D (hundreds of millions of dollars).
This last point seems the most important, from Sun’s perspective, to me. In all reality, Java is a loss leader for Sun, and they would benefit hugely if the open source community and other vendors pick up more of the R&D slack. They can accomplish this by open sourcing Java. The more they can leverage the open source community (who benefits also), and IBM, BEA, Oracle, etc (who could have greater say in Java’s direction), the better off Sun is. They could reduce their R&B budget, while still deriving compatibility test kit and Java ME revenue, because they would still own the Java brand name.
Finally, I believe, but can’t prove, that open sourcing Java would help accelerate it’s usage. It would simply bring more developers, vendors, customers to the fold, and accelerate the already very healthy Java community.
And of course, the open source community would benefit, because hacking on Java becomes easier, distributing Java becomes easier, and people could use it and hack on it to their own benefit (not just Sun’s).
So, open sourcing Java is a big win-win-win-win for everyone.
Did anyone ever think that this was going to happen the next day? Opensourcing Java is a sizable task and will take time.
I have to wonder what exactly is meant by moving Java to “open source”. I interpret it as being able to view the Java source code and the right to modify and compile it for individual use. I do not foresee Sun giving up much, if any, control. I do not see Sun taking independent code contributions, nor do I see an open system where others can start and distribute their own Java forks.
Anyway, what is the big deal? How many people care/who is affected? The average Java programmer is going to get little from this. They will continue writing code against Java, gaining nothing from the ability to view the runtime engine’s source code. Only a few genius Java junkies are going to actually dig in and gain from being able to read the source.
That being said, this is a positive step on Sun’s behalf. Java is the only practicle OS-independent application runtime environment for local excecution. What remains to be seen is if the Internet-delivered application model can truely replace/replicate the power/featureset of locally-executed applications. The Internet model may dominate and replace, or it may simply coexist. Either way traditional apps and Internet apps will be duking it out for a long time to come. I’m on the side of being able to control my OWN PROPERTY and being able to control MY DATA, thus I hope that Internet apps only go so far.