Embattled Linux software maker Lindows announced Tuesday that it has filed a registration statement with the Securities and Exchange Commission for an initial public offering of common stock. The filing reveals that Lindows is suing Xandros, which sells a competing desktop Linux package based on products developed by Corel, over a $750,000 loan that Lindows alleges Xandros defaulted on (Lindows and Xandros shared code and some business 2-2.5 years ago but their relationship went sour about 1.5 years ago). That case is still in the discovery phase, according to the filing.
Lindows Opens Door for IPO, Sues Xandros
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But to many lawsuits goin on.
Sad to see that these to distro’s arent getting along,however,IMO,business is business. I just hope that these kinds of things can be resloved to put there money to real work other then law suits.
what the heck these people do. I mean do they just survive on lawsuits rather than competition and monopolistic policies??? Do they even think of CONSUMER??? and Linux company suing other???bad precedent. Linux is about co-operation in my view.
THese companies take work of others, package it badly and then sell it making quick bucks. None of software firms provide warantty of their products??can any one tell me any other instance of products except for software which do not provide warranty??????
If you read the article. You would know the lawsuit has nothing to do with Linux, but with the fact that Xandros borrowed $750,000 and never paid em back. I dont see anything wrong with that.
It is shameful that a public dispute should involve Linux at all. Linus needs to start exercising his copyright by excluding litigiously inclined companies like Lindows from using the copyright and participating in the community.
Pleaaase read the article!! What does this lawsuit have to do with linux, other than the fact that they are both distributers!? Xandros is a business, it needs to pay its bills. If you dont pay your mortgage do you think it’s evil of the bank to take away your house?! Come on guys.
If somebody borrowed $750,000 from Linus Torvalds and did not pay him back, I would expect Mr. Torvalds to sue. What is shameful is that Xandros borrowed a large amount of money and said, “See ya later” to Lindows. This kind of behavior is unacceptable, and judging fromt he fact that this transpired years ago, it seems Lindows has been patient up until now.
This is definitely NOT a SCO case.
It is pretty difficult for me to comprehend what you were trying to say — what in the blazes were you trying to say?
Do you even have a point?
Anyway, If I read the lead-in right, it was about a DEFAULTED LOAN… not even about Linux. Could have been dishwashers for all I care but since this is O.S. news.
Oh yeah, did I forget to tell you it was about a LOAN? Business is business, just as dv2 said.
this lawsuit has nothing to do with linux itself.
z1xq: Lindows hasnt violated the gpl. what the hell are you talking about?
Do they start suying linux distro’s now 😕
I think this is a shockwave comming from the mircrosoft versus lindows cases. They cost money and lindows needs money, because they have to change their name. (marketing, branding, etc.)
honestly, I don’t mind seeing a linux distro go under, there are way to many to make a front. But in my eyes lindows is one of the pilars in making linux more a desktopOS, not my choice, but they are trying.
One company sues another one about a loan that was not paid back ? fair enough, so what ?
Just because they happen to be two companies that sell linux disros does not mean anything, it could have been two companies that sold, cars, oil, toilet paper.
Yes, the linux community is about co-operation, sharing etc etc etc
but have any of you actually read the gpl ?
I will break down the points and convert them into normal every day language.
ANYONE may take gpl code, alter it and release it again… PROVIDED they do not say they wrote it – (bad boys!)
ANYONE who takes gpl code and distributes it, has a right to CHARGE for doing so… although source has to be freely available.
Lindows and Xandros both use gpl code, however they also include code that they have written themselves. They do not have to release either source or binary code for this, that is their right.
but this is getting this thread off on the wrong footing, it was simply a discussion about one company suing the other, so don’t bring linux, linus and before you start, sco and microsoft into it
I don’t like the way everything is tied into cnr in Lindows/Linspire, it just makes it look that they are after your cash
BUT, I will consider buying shares if the ipo gets the go ahead
The higher, the fewer.
No they have not, but this is the sort of competitive B.S. that Microsoft engages in. Obviously, Xandros disputes the claim or they would pay. You people only read Mr. Robertson’s
assertions not proof of wrongdoing. A post yesterday suggested he change his name to Gill Bates and I concur. Mr.Torvalds has the right to prevent anyone from using the Linux trademark as it belongs to Linus Torvalds who I can’t see being proud of this company dragging HIS trademark through the mud. It has nothing to do with the GPL.
Stockwise could this Linspire become the next SCOX because of this suit. If it does this could become very profitable for me, either that or it will tank the first day it starts trading.
Lindows was SUCH a good name. I wish that they had found a way to fight Microsoft’s abusive lawsuits. Microsoft can’t justly trademark a word like “windows” that has been used not only for those funny things stuck in walls that enable you to see out, but also in the computer world since way before there ever was an oppressive, stifling monopoly OS called Microsoft Windows. The only reason Microsoft gets away with this is that they have great lawyers and the legal system is flawed and they have the White House in their back pocket too, that’s why DoJ rolled over in the antitrust back in 2000, the admistration is so pro-business they are pro-monopoly, and this is all at a great detriment to computer users because innovation and competition are totally stomped on.
It’s a shame “Linspire” decided to sue Xandros, but what are you gonna do. As for the IP… it would be nice to buy that stock but it’s not at all clear if that is a money-making proposition or not, so count me out for now, but who knows down the road.
“If somebody borrowed $750,000 from Linus Torvalds and did not pay him back, I would expect Mr. Torvalds to sue. What is shameful is that Xandros borrowed a large amount of money and said, “See ya later” to Lindows. This kind of behavior is unacceptable, and judging fromt he fact that this transpired years ago, it seems Lindows has been patient up until now. ”
This is something that totally annoys me about the way people think. If someone is accused of something it does not make him guilty, give people the benefit of the doubt and good will. The case will prove if Xandros did indeed take a 750,000 loan without returning the money.
I am not being biased towards Lindows or Xandros, I’m merely trying to make it clear that nobody knows what happened currently but Xandros and Lindows executives.
1. i doubt linux would forbid Lindows to use the Linux name.
2. i don’t see how it would make a difference to Lindows if Linus did. If they use the word “linux” anywhere outside of the source, they can and will just rebrand it like they have done with everything else.
this is a non-issue.
companies only sue each other in linux land?
people get upset about supposed defaulted loans only in linux land?
EH?
If you can’t see what not letting companies drag the Linux trademark into the world of corporate one-upmanship has to do with this then you are not too quick on the uptake. I don’t pretend to know what Mr. Torvalds thinks I merely think that if a company wants to do damage to the Linux name and reputation with sort of BS then they should lose the support of the community and the rights to the name let them “rebrand it like they have done with everything else.”
“If you can’t see what not letting companies drag the Linux trademark into the world of corporate one-upmanship has to do with this then you are not too quick on the uptake.”
Stop being so melodramatic. When you’re running your own corporation then you might have the experience to offer advice to Robertson. This is just business like somebody already said, and if you can’t understand that then it’s you who’s not only slow on the uptake but naive as well. Until then you ought to go back to playing Frozen Bubble.
Leave Frozen Bubble out of this
There is no logic to your argument! You state that there is no evidence, only Robertson’s assertions — but only after you have first said “this is the sort of competitive B.S. that Microsoft engages in.” You have already passed judgement, though both sides haven’t even been laid out in court, and you’ve done it in such a way that pretty much anything you say is undercut by your obvious bias.
Indeed well said
The main news is the IPO. I need to get a broker.
i’d be buying. they are – to my mind – the one ‘new’ linux company in with a real chance of making money soon.
“If you read the article. You would know the lawsuit has nothing to do with Linux, but with the fact that Xandros borrowed $750,000 and never paid em back. I dont see anything wrong with that.”
It beats me how this could be a court case in the first place. Where I come from you have either borrowed 750.000 or you have not. If you have, you have to pay up. If you have not, you do not have to pay.
If there is any doubt as to wether you have borrowed 750.000 you don’t have to pay because then there are obviously no valid documents to prove it.
Some times I wonder if American corporate lawyers are drawing up unclear documents on purpose in order to make some money trying to interpret them later.
Linux companies suing each other…. Yep, Linux has arrived.
Your completely right I am biased. Lindow’s behavior since the inception of their business has reaked of poor corporate citizenship. I dislike all things Microsoft, but don’t pick a fight with the largest software company on the planet and then try to pretend you are being persecuted and use it in a weak attempt to get the backing and endorsement of the open source community. Now that they grow tired of this they decide to weed out the competition. Hell, Lindows is based on the original Xandros code base. Next they’ll probably get a patent and file suit against the Debian project for infringing it. The Linux community should have NO use for predatory businsee practices. But I am just giving personal opinion and I don’t give a rat’s ass if anyone agrees because it’s MY opinion.
Sorry that should have been “businsee practices.”
Of course Linux-companies are suing each other. They have no business model. There is no free lunch after all and you cannot sell a free lunch. That’s what my dear friend Lauraine Didiot will tell you for sure.
I don’t like Lindows. They’re not professionnal at all.
Their way of doing business and their OS distro are not suitable.
They should give it up and start all over selling vegetables.
I can get Fedora, or Mandrake 10.0, or Suse 9.0 (maybe 9.1) on ebay for next to nothing. So why am I going to pay to $70 for “Linspire” ?
From what I can see on distrowatch, Linspire barely makes it into the top 20 distros. By contrast Mandrake is always in the number 1 or number 2 spot. And Madrake is just now pulling itself out of bankruptcy.
I don’t know if Linspire is “the bad guy” but I am very sceptical of their business model.
I thought they changed the name to linspire weeks ago… oh well..
You said “From what I can see on distrowatch, Linspire barely makes it into the top 20 distros. By contrast Mandrake is always in the number 1 or number 2 spot. And Madrake is just now pulling itself out of bankruptcy”
I take it you are referring to the “Page Hit Ranking” on the distrowatch site ? This is merely and indicator of how many times the relevant site has been clicked from the distrowatch page, it has nothing to do with the popularity of the distro.
If you look at it , Lindows/Linspire today, you will see it is lower down the list than Mepis… Does that mean Mepis is more popular with users than lindows ? No, it means more people are visiting the site from Distrowatch.
The popularity chart changes every time a distro has important news, people read the news, then go to the site themselves.
Before you slag off a distro, try it out yourself, don’t let other peoples opinions slur your own
>>Before you slag off a distro, try it out yourself, don’t let other peoples opinions slur your own<<
I didn’t “slag off” on Linspire. I simply pointed out *my opinion* that I am sceptical of the business prospects for the company. After all, the article was about the upcoming IPO.
>>The popularity chart changes every time a distro has important news, people read the news, then go to the site themselves.<<
There is a one year, 6 month, 3 month, and one week breakdown. Linspire is not that popular and never has been. In my opinion that is for good reason: Linspire is just another distro, and in many respects is technically inferior to other – more popular – distros which I can get free, or nearly free. So why am I going to pay $70 for Linspire?
Two companies going south. Lindows offering shares in an IPO with $2 million in revenue and a $4 million loss, reminds me of the Mandrake Linux business model: none. Lindows already has a club, so it had to be this.
Xandros has burned much more cash than I thought. Xandros signed the licensing agreement with Corel after securing a $10 million capital commitment from Linux Global Partners, three years ago (August, 2001). And a $750,000 bill unpaid? Way to go. Out.
Linux is services or services, or hardware (IBM). So many companies making the same mistake again and again; Stormix, Corel, Progeny, …
“The S-1 statement filed with the SEC also gives the first indication of Lindows’ finances. For 2003, the company reported a net loss of $4.08 million on net revenue of $2.07 million. In 2002, the company had a net loss of $6.68 million on net revenue of about $63,000. The company currently lists $934,000 in total assets, including about $250,000 in cash, and total indebtedness of $4.7 million.”
“The filing also reveals that Lindows is suing Xandros, which sells a competing desktop Linux package based on products developed by Corel, over a $750,000 loan that Lindows alleges Xandros defaulted on.”
“According to the filing, at least a fifth of the IPO proceeds would be used to repay Lindows founder Michael Robertson for the $10.4 million he has invested in the company.”
OK, let’s admit right up front that journalists are hopeless mush-minds who can barely string together words much less exercise the critical thinking skills necessary to actually write a coherent story. Having gotten that out of the way, am I missing something here?
Lindows apparently has 10.4 million dollars in debt, not 4.7 million dollars since one only repays debt, not equity. In fact, there is no equity in the company at all: it is definitionally bankrupt. Nevertheless, we are supposed to believe that a bankrupt company that has never made a positive income loaned $750,000.00 to a competitor to develop a competing product. I don’t buy it, and I won’t be buying their stock either. LOL.
You know, I hate to have a negative opinion of Linux distributors, but lawsuits seem to be their only business plan.
I have never heard of one Linux company suing another. What are you referencing? SCO doesn’t count as they are now a Microsoft sponsored entity.
THIS IS NOT A TROLL – HONESTLY !
I am at work at the minute, and was typing a reply to walterbyrd on my pc, it is running win2000, and ie6. it crashed big time. ie crashed with the usual message about send to ms etc, then the whole system crashed
Anyway, what I was saying that although there is a load of free distros out there and most of them are many many times better than lindows,
but you have to look at it from the target audiences point of view. Lindows targets moving people away from windows. They do an excellent job of this, the system is nice looking and snappy and includes some software for everything you would use your computer for.
The bad bit is click and run, it is an excellent idea for people coming from a windows background who don’t know anything about apt-get etc to be able to click a title and it installs, however, personally, I dont like the cnr submenus and cnr running by default, it just makes the whole thing look like lindows only have an interest in your credit card.
In conclusion, try lindows, stop cnr running by default, remove all the cnr systems and learn to use apt-get and you will end up with an amazing system. Even though there is a price tag, it can end up a far better system than free distros, you just have to find these things out for yourself and not automatically assume that because others do not like it, then neither will you.
stop being a sheep and think for yourself
raver there’s something as good as avoiding sheeps: staying on topic, which is Lindows’ IPO and litigation (sueing Xandros). Not lame crashing nor good hearted counsel on click ‘n run and distro picking.
In conclusion, avoid investing in Lindows’ shares, no matter how much rock-solid-control you “feel” with apt-get and the like. Its financial prospects are rock-solid down the hill.
@Hunter Moon
SEC Filing requirements are quite strict. I’d doubt there are errors in the filing. As those kind of errors are what Enron Prinicipals are currently facing trial for.
If the SEC Filing says Lindows, Inc. is 4.7 Million in Debt. I’d guess that’s the correct figure.
Lindows has been operating (most likely) on the 10 million loan the Michael made to the company, which would be repaid by the filing. Also, the $750,000 Loan to Xandros probably came out of that money too.
Not to mention the money Lindows donated to various open-source projects.
One thing you gloss over is a company that goes from a net loss of $4.08 million on net revenue of $2.07 million in 2003 from a net loss of $6.68 million on net revenue of about $63,000 in 2002.
That shows some REAL progress, both in terms of revenue and cost reductions. They reduced losses by a third, while they increased revenues by 32 times (hope my math is right).
That’s incredible progress.
Let’s see what 2004 shows.
Most Linux companies are running in the Red. I’m not surprised as a startup, Lindows, Inc. is doing the same.
And remember, a lot of those losses are the costs of all the lawsuits they are defending from Microsoft…
Without those spurious suits, Lindows, Inc. financials would be a lot healthier.
Heck, if they weren’t so generous with open source donations, I’d bet the losses would be a lot less.
And for accounting purposes, I’d bet all the free copies of Lindows given away in the various promotions are being counted at full retail in the “Losses” too.
The company is much healthier than a quick look at these figures might suggest.
I for one, will be investing. Michael did well with MP3.COM, and shows he knows how to make money. I think he’ll do it again with Linspire.
I am also going to buy an Insider Membership quite soon. I am already a Lifetime member. For less than I spent on Windows XP Pro.
When Linspire 5.0 comes out (if it matches the rumors from the Insiders I’ve been talking to, who say it’s worth waiting for…), you’ll see why this company is worth investing in.
They are moving faster and better than any Linux Distribution Vendor. Making Lindows/Linspire more and more usable on the desktop with each release.
More than Mandrake, Xandros, SuSE or any of the other distributions. I was a Mandrake fan until recently. One I ran Lindows, I was never going back.
I think I will invest some cash into the ipo, for a reason that al missed, the casual investor.
These people made a packet of cash when companies like microsoft, sage, apple etc went public. They were a new type of industry that had not been on the public market before, so casual investors decided to give them a shot.
We all know how well the shares of these companies went, but that was a long time ago……
Fast forward to today, and now we have Lindows about to float. It is a linux company, and with all the media hype about the system being the “next thing” and it is “better than windows” and “it will take microsoft down” etc etc, (not my quotes, just newspapers and magazines)
So, if you are Joe Public and looking for a company to invest some cash in, you look at past history of software companies, and then hear about this new one, which could be massive, guess where that money is going to go ? Joe Public might not understand what linux is, the differences between linux and windows, which one is the better of the two, but it makes no difference. It is simply one software company which is about to float which is offering a different product to the ones that are big at the minute.
I for one am looking forward to watching Bloomberg or CNBC speak to Joe Public on the market floors and see how quickly the uptake will be. I think it will be massive, and I for one, will be in the middle off it
It would be nice if the real world was full of goodness and unlimited resources and kind generosity. Unfortunately not. Not for grownups.
Lindows is a business. I dobt that it was founded for the purpose of making a better world. I suspect MR, like most other businessmen, is interested in raking in more money then he puts out. Just like me. And just like you too if you are self-supporting.
As for Xandros, I am sorry but in an open market place you cannot expect mercy. If they did borrow the money, it should be blatantly obvious from the paper trail. If not, then Linspire is in deep crud for filing a frivolous lawsuit. Again, operating under the assumption that MR is not an idiot means that there is probably some basis for the lawsuit.
Some people need to let go of this vision they seem to have of a beautiful world of Free Linux & Love, complete with bunnies and lovely ladies in thongs and free pizza for everyone forever. Doesn’t work like that out here in the real world. Out here you are lucky if your competition refrains from cutting your throat, much less expect your competition to hand you $750,000 with a shrug and “don’t worry about it”.
Would Eugenia allow her sponsers to continue posting banners on this site if they neglected to pay her? For several years?
I don’t think Linux companies will make a lot of money before 2010. Linux still has to mature. Don’t trust Lindows for now.
I trust more companies such as Google or Akamai which have a real potential and can meet the customer’s needs nowadays. These companies could even be a serious Linux and Microsoft competitor. They have the PhDs, the architecture, the OS, the information, the audience, the knowledge. These companies are about to make big bucks when they launch an IPO.
To be continued.
“They are moving faster and better than any Linux Distribution Vendor. Making Lindows/Linspire more and more usable on the desktop with each release.”
That is the thing that strikes me about them. They DO seem to be creating a buzz with their ventures and releases more than the more established players are and most assuredly more than the other Desktop Distro people are (Lycoris, Xandros).
To the guy that keeps repeating why would you pay $70… well you probably wouldn’t but you aren’t the target market. You keep using Debian or Slack or whatever you use and be happy with it. There is no reason to be the dog in the manger about this and try and poison what Lindows does with Linspire and the other products. They are moving the market forward and raising Linux in the public consciousness far more than any other company has done over a similar timeframe. Everyone benefits from that so just accept that it’s not for you and quit telling us that you’d not pay $70 for it.
>>Lindows targets moving people away from windows.<<
Since windows owns about 95% of the desktop market, I think it’s fair to say that all desktop linux distros have the same target market.
>>They do an excellent job of this, the system is nice looking and snappy and includes some software for everything you would use your computer for.<<
Again, fedora/mandrake/suse etc can say the same.
>>The bad bit is click and run, it is an excellent idea for people coming from a windows background<<
Yes, except they want to charge *another* premium price for this. They also want to charge you for staroffice – although openoffice is on their livecd, it is notably missing from the install, hmmm, wonder why? Then they want to charge you for AV software. Add it all up, you’re paying more for Linspire than you’d pay for windows. The average windows user is going to wonder what happend to the big saving they have heard so much about.
>>try lindows, stop cnr running by default, remove all the cnr systems and learn to use apt-get and you will end up with an amazing system.<<
I have used lindows – Lindows 4.5 developers edition, when it was free – and I was only amazed that anybody would expect somebody to pay $70 for it. The install was completely inflexible, the end user has no choice as to what is installed or what isn’t. It was the slowest booting PC OS I have ever used. It crashed when I tried to run K3B. Yes, it looked nice, but I can make other distros look just as nice. BTW: I use apt-get all the time and I would *not* trust apt-get to work correctly with Linspire – especially if you also use that “click-and-run” feature.
As long as I can get fedora/mandrake/suse from ebay for next to nothing, I see no reason to pay $70 for linspire, and doubt many other people will see a reason either.
I stand by the following statement:
Lindows apparently has 10.4 million dollars in debt, not 4.7 million dollars since one only repays debt, not equity. In fact, there is no equity in the company at all: it is definitionally bankrupt. Nevertheless, we are supposed to believe that a bankrupt company that has never made a positive income loaned $750,000.00 to a competitor to develop a competing product. I don’t buy it, and I won’t be buying their stock either. LOL.
I do not agree that just because someone filed a legal document it must be true. If that is the case, then I guess SCO really is entitled to license fees from Linux users.
No one has tried to reconcile the inconsistent numbers stated in the article. Maybe the article is wrong, maybe not. It makese no sense as written, though.
Regardless of how much less they lost in 2003 compared with 2002, we are talking about a company that costs $6,000,000.00+ a year to operate and it cranks out a product that is not much more than a few tweaks to a bunch of free programs burned onto a CD and stuck in a box. Gee, it isn’t exactly like every other Linux vendor isn’t doing the same thing.
Assuming Lindows shoots for the OEM market, sticking their distro on boxes from Walmart, how much can they hope to charge? Probably a maximum of $5-10.00 per box. Anything much more than that and you might as well put Windows XP on the box. I think MS OEM licenses Windows for less than $50.00 a copy. At $5.00 a computer Walmart has to sell 1.2 million of these boxes a year for Lindows to break even, half that much at $10.00 a computer. I am guessing the market is much less or Lindows would have already made piles of cash.
I may get surprised in a couple of years, but I just don’t see it. If anyone has a chance to win in this market, it is probably distros with big iron or big money backing, or really good distros like Mandrake.