Home > Apple > Apple Should Stay the Mac Course Apple Should Stay the Mac Course Submitted by Daren Wilz 2004-06-30 Apple 52 Comments Some call for Apple to choose between PC and consumer electronics markets for its future. Could the company’s record of making quality hardware and software be held against it? Sean Gallagher says. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 52 Comments 2004-06-30 7:02 am What’s being held against apple is their higher than market value prices that keeps them from truely becoming mainstream. I guarentee that if I could go out and buy a decent g5 based mac for $700 USD, then I’d be using one right now. Unfortunately, Mac puts a lot of work into their OS and that requires a lot of money for developers and R&D… which makes the lower number of units they do sell have to be highly priced. I hope they can find a way to start making reasonably priced desktops soon or they may end up a husk of a company like sgi. (even the iMac is more pricey than a cheap p4 desktop and that’s all Joe-Desktop-Solitaire cares about). Computers are no longer the sign of a nerd, they’re becoming as ubiquitous as the automobile. 2004-06-30 8:00 am As a recent convert to OS X, I would say the extra cost is justified, when you look at the quality hardware. The way attached things work. The way the software of the OS has obviously been well thought out in both GUI and Terminal (Bash) use. I am not so sure that Joe-Desktop only cares about cheapest this and that, because cheapest (lowest common denominater) does not always work, or when it does it is erratic. You will not see a US700.- G5 for a long time. In truth, why should you? Or maybe …. with absolutely no software and no drives attached…..then you have to buy a hard disk and the os…… I am personally fed up with this lemming-like rush to the cheapest of everything. More often than not you get what you pay for. 2004-06-30 8:19 am I am not rich, nor probably ever will be. I do not find it painful to amass the cost of a great powerbook (15″ superdrive). I just think people are sticker-shocked, and don’t take into account what they don’t need anymore, if they replace or upgrade machines. How many people keep 3 machines at a time, and then when they realize they don’t need the other 2… the price has already dropped substaintially. I don’t mind that people think apple costs are high… but when I bought my VAIO last year for $2000, sell it for $1200, and amass $900 more for a sweet powerbook… I can’t see the complaints. I think too many people keep too much stuff. Apple is about doing it well, solely. My powerbook will replace my linux partition, windows partition, and my hunger for Mac OS X without amazingly slow emulation. Out with the old and ugly — in with the new and stylish. Your life may vary. 2004-06-30 8:21 am How long Apple will be able to attract commercial developpers to its platform. One thing these guys look at is the OS market penetration. That’s where the danger is. When people buy a computer, they compare the software offering unless they know exactly what they’ll need. It doesn’t matter if they’ll buy 2 packages at most. Most buyers will go to the biggest offer. If Apple’s software market continues shrinking, it will have consequences. The heavy software investment that has given birth to the nice i-life suite of apps is not really paying off in terms of generated hardware volume so that line of investment is bound to be questioned at some stage. Jobs likes to compare Mac to BMW or what have you, but there is an essential difference. BMW can go on the same roads a Ford can go and uses the same petrol. Macs need specific roads to do the same things. The fewer macs there are (in market share), the fewer Mac roads they will be. 2004-06-30 8:57 am “One thing these guys look at is the OS market penetration” That may be true, but what they are most concerned with is whether or not they can develop/port apps to OS X and be profitable at it…and guess what. The number of OS X developers is growing. “Macs need specific roads to do the same things” What the hell are you talking about anyway? Are you talking about networking? I have a powerbook at work swapping files with XP boxes using shared folders. There is even active directory support. Did you know that you can administer Windows boxes remotely using OS X? How about running Windows only apps…guess what bub…OS X can use virtual PC and run Windows apps and other x86/PC apps. That means there is actually a greater number of apps that can be run under OS X than Windows since Windows can’t run OS X apps, but OS X can run Windows apps. If you want to bring up the PearPC thing, go ahead, the developers of it don’t recommend doing any serious work with it, so no, there are no practical solutions to running Mac apps on PCs. OS X plays very nicely with other OSes. If you’d take the time to get to know the OS, you’d know that it isn’t on some “special road.” It is on the same road as everyone else and uses the same fuel as everyone else. The mechanics are different, but what it does is the same. 2004-06-30 9:38 am I thought it was obvious. It is also true for Windows but who is writing MacOs only software these days except Apple ? Do you really think there is a lack of photo collection, movie editing and office software on windows that’d make MacOs emulation attractive ? All you say about interoperability is true, but the smaller market share Apple has, the fewer MacOs compatible software will be available, and the less attractive the platform will be to prospective buyers. So Apple can’t ignore that the shrinking market share is a serious problem. That’s the only point I am making. I own a powerbook because I didn’t want a Windows laptop (my home PC runs Linux). I don’t need additional software because I have simple needs. But I work in banking, and none of the desktop software used here is available for MacOs. So don’t expect a Mac here any time soon. I hoped I’d be able to buy a simple accounting software to replace the nasty spreadsheet that I use for my freelance business, and well, there is a package that seems good for the UK and that’s it. No choice. And yes, that package is also available for Windows where many more UK adapted packages are available. So if that had been my primary need, I wouldn’t have bought a Mac ! end of story ! And the same applies to plenty of areas and it’s only likely to get worse. 2004-06-30 10:08 am There’s “premium brands” for everything. What’s the difference? I don’t expect OSX to have cost so much more to produce than XP, just as i don’t expect my Levi’s or Diesel or Nudie jeans to have cost much more to produce than Joe Schmoe Fancy Pants that i could’ve bought for half the price. The Apple logo on you computer says “I’m not a cheap bastard. I’ve got money.” aswell as saying “Hey, this is a great computer, and it’s well designed too”. 2004-06-30 10:25 am I totally agree with duke. The lack of volume in new computers is eventually going to damage the economic viability of writing os x versions of software. This might be partially offset by the increasing number of developers and the open source ports of popular linux programs to os x. So, you could say that the future of the apple platform is tied to linux and open source. I have a question I dont have numbers, but apparently less than 200 thousand G5 systems are sold per quarter, and sales continue down. I dont think the total number of sold units since release is close to 800 thousand. Is this a big enough number of prospective sales to justify a company like microsoft, to rewrite VirtualPC to run on G5’s ? 2004-06-30 10:36 am What does it matter when proper marketshare calculations against x86 are always biased. To many factors are unexplained to be even bothered about their marketshare: How many linux installations are they? Answer: Nobody knows How many machines bought with a windows license are formatted to a different OS? Answer: Nobody knows Does everybody visit Google so that it can make independent calculations about marketshare? Answer: No In total quarterly sales, are Servers and office computers accounted for in windows sales and compared against OSX sales? Answer: Yes Only Hari Seldon could calculate the true marketshare of OSX and he isn’t here so what does it matter? What does it matter when Apple has well over 25 million users of OSX? Are there over 25 million users of BMW’s? If there are, does it matter? If there isn’t, does it matter? They are making a profit and they make other things besides computers these days, they are branching out, does Dell? No they brand other peoples stuff instead. 2004-06-30 10:56 am For linux, market share doesn’t matter so much. It matters to commercial distros but not to Linux itself or other open source projects. Linux and other GNU stuff needs a critical mass of developpers and users, which has been reached and passed a long time ago. Commercial success is just a (very) nice to have. We will have a clearer idea of Linux market penetration next time someone releases a “must have” package available to all platforms. Something as massive as Kasaa, or the Netscape browser when they appeared. If that’s bigger than expected, then commercial developpers will move very quickly. Until then, nothing is to be expected. For Apple, it matters. It’s not nice to look like a niche when your competitors are “whole ecosystems” 2004-06-30 12:13 pm I run a small computer shop repairing pcs all day but i use a mac when i get home . The majority of the customers that come in to my shop would be described as welfare/min wage earners so the point of affordablity is important but even if apple where to be able to make a an imac or such like for 450 pounds. pcs would still be a factor of about 100 pounds cheaper.I like macs and i like compitition in the computer industry.If you go back to the early 80’s they where numerous computer companies each delveloping there own solutions and the amout of innovation was huge . But with one dominant OS company microsoft does not need to inovate just insure it remains de-facto number one but thats just stating the obvious. but my wish list would be 1:A ppc atx motherboard with an upgradeable cpu, (as is standard on most x86 boards) nic 10/100 5.1 sound firewire usb2 onbaord gfx (ps/2 would nice) standard ide maybe an higher end board with sata 8x agp, 3 pci slots the cpu i would like would be around 800mz but 600mz would do depending on price, ddr memory + copy of the current os . a good price would be £200 a reasonable one £250 and this would give apple some where £150.00 profit and maybe do a prepay subscription for os updates £39 a year still loads of cash too be made plus biggerv platform base 2. The imac the coloured ones should have been kept with a resonable price tag of £500 a few updates firewire usb2 more memory larger hd ect.people love the tidy and neat layout less wires:-) 3. Support the upgrade market and don’t lockout the os upgrade. You can upgrade a beige g3 to 466 mz 384mb ram and a radion gfx card why not support that setup as long as more people are using you operating systems!! i think if imlimented this would allow macs to sell much more base units even if they got up to 10% growth it would be really good for every one. just my humble wish list. sorry for my wee rant 🙂 2004-06-30 12:15 pm I run a small computer shop repairing pcs all day but i use a mac when i get home . The majority of the customers that come in to my shop would be described as welfare/min wage earners so the point of affordablity is important but even if apple where to be able to make a an imac or such like for 450 pounds. pcs would still be a factor of about 100 pounds cheaper.I like macs and i like compitition in the computer industry.If you go back to the early 80’s they where numerous computer companies each delveloping there own solutions and the amout of innovation was huge . But with one dominant OS company microsoft does not need to inovate just insure it remains de-facto number one but thats just stating the obvious. but my wish list would be 1:A ppc atx motherboard with an upgradeable cpu, (as is standard on most x86 boards) nic 10/100 5.1 sound firewire usb2 onbaord gfx (ps/2 would nice) standard ide maybe an higher end board with sata 8x agp, 3 pci slots the cpu i would like would be around 800mz but 600mz would do depending on price, ddr memory + copy of the current os . a good price would be £200 a reasonable one £250 and this would give apple some where £150.00 profit and maybe do a prepay subscription for os updates £39 a year still loads of cash too be made plus biggerv platform base 2. The imac the coloured ones should have been kept with a resonable price tag of £500 a few updates firewire usb2 more memory larger hd ect.people love the tidy and neat layout less wires:-) 3. Support the upgrade market and don’t lockout the os upgrade. You can upgrade a beige g3 to 466 mz 384mb ram and a radion gfx card why not support that setup as long as more people are using you operating systems!! i think if imlimented this would allow macs to sell much more base units even if they got up to 10% growth it would be really good for every one. just my humble wish list. sorry for my wee rant 🙂 2004-06-30 12:18 pm “Jobs likes to compare Mac to BMW or what have you, but there is an essential difference. BMW can go on the same roads a Ford can go and uses the same petrol. Macs need specific roads to do the same things. The fewer macs there are (in market share), the fewer Mac roads they will be.” If you think documents are “roads” and programs are “fuels”, you may compare Mac and PC like Diesel motor and Gas motor. In Europe exist great Diesel motor for beautiful sporting car. Yes, Diesel motor for sporting car!!! A Diesel motor costs little more than a Gas motor, but it has better power!!! A Gas motor can have more “speed”, but if you want a very powerful motor that it can “grab the road” you may buy a Diesel motor! And you can go on the same roads with Gas motor or Diesel motor, but Diesel motor is better, as Mac is better than PC to make the same document. 😀 I’m a MacZealot and my car is a comfort citycar “Fiat Punto 1.3 Multijet”, it has a 1300cc Diesel motor that it is more powerful than a 1600cc Gas motor!!! I buys only the best ones. 😀 2004-06-30 1:13 pm That is getting so lame. I am by no mean rich. STUPID LOTTERY!!! anyhow, I have had a 400MHz G4 for about 3-4years now? I have panther server installed on it. I do streaming video on it, web/ftp/mail serving from it. It hold all my music and I sometimes play starcraft and a few other games on it . My girl uses it for “ebay” purposes, and when family is around it gets used as a normal PC. A few months back I got a 12″ iBook. How? I managed to save about $40 a week jsut from fastfood, sodas, watching none less movie a week etc. very little stuff. Instead of getting lunch out 5 days a week I would do 2 days a week. I took that money and put it aside. 8 months later I had enough money for an iBook, airport card and a linksys wireless AP. This iBook is worth a million $s to me. When I go in the backyard browsing the internet I am king of the world. I has had 2 uptimes of more than 90 days with 6 users logging in and using it for whatever they need. My brother plays warcraft III on it all day when he comes about. This is an incredible machine and there is nothing overpriced about it. The only time I restart is when I run an update on it every couple of months or so. Anyone can afford one of these babys… 2004-06-30 1:15 pm Programs dictate what a computer can do as roads dictates where a car can go. The main function of a car is to go from A to B and they need roads for that. The main function of computers is to do tasks, and they need programs for that. that’s were there is an analogy and that’s where it stops 😉 2004-06-30 1:31 pm at least in the US, is because of modern consumerism. if people cannot get it with the money they have on them, then it is to expensive. the “I want it now” mentality is nuts over here. do you realize that a normal family that makes about 50 – 70 thousand per year could have their home payed off in 5 – 10 years if they would actual work at it? instead, you have people buying homes for 8 times what they can afford and then taking home equity loans out on it. 2004-06-30 1:45 pm but this whole idea of digital convergence happening on the mac is another oft again repeated fantasy. apple makes some nice software, they make macs, they make music players, jobs has said they dont want any part of the pda or video player market [he could be playing for time], they are now making some add on wireless devices. well, apple is moving rather slowly. tv tuner cards for pcs abound. pvr software and hardware devices abound. media center pcs in small form factors are selling very well. ms makes a media center os. they make a tablet pc os. they make an os for pdas (that plays music, movies, plays games, does slide shows, etc etc). wireless home devices abound on the pc side and have for some time. ms makes a game console that integrates slightly with the pc. all of the ilife apps are duplicated by numerous makers on the pc…ranging from cheap consumer choices to high end pro-sumer models. there is greater choice of music players and music download services on the pc. ms tried with the smart display but the market wasnt listening…but they are innovating. jobs conveniently forgot to mention all of these new innovations from ms in his wwdc keynote. anyway, convergence is in full swing and is happening now and has been on the pc. 2004-06-30 2:00 pm I think its strange that no one has ranted against this author in the same manner they went after BLQ after his osx review. This author claims that apples low market share is directly caused by their quality and longetivity. My Vaio from 99 happily runs win xp. There really isn’t any quality difference between apple and any other x86 hardware manufacturer. No one has had the problems they have experinced with the ibooks logic board. I believe the article he was replying to was also filled with innacuracies and fallacies, but stooping to their level is silly. 2004-06-30 2:17 pm I guarentee that if I could go out and buy a decent g5 based mac for $700 USD, then I’d be using one right now. I don’t know where you people get your numbers from, but please show me a decent opteron based PC for $700 USD. Hell, show me a decent P4 based PC for $700 USD. It’s true that there are P4 based systems for $700 USD, but they are far from decent. They are the bottem of the barrel budget boxes! 2004-06-30 2:40 pm It’s true that there are P4 based systems for $700 USD, but they are far from decent. They are the bottem of the barrel budget boxes! Not true! The bottom of the bucket PC’s are running around $350.00 right now. For abuot $400, you can get into a nice Dell system nowadays too! I’m not trying to flam the flame wars (I have a G5 & a P4, and both have the strengths & weaknesses), but if you’re going to spout off about price and value, at least know what you’re talking about. A $700.00 PC nowadays is generally a mid to mid/high range one. Your choice of Opteron only applies if we’re trying to compare 64bit to 64bit. Not G4’s to x86’s, which is what most “low end” comparisons are about. As for Opterons to G5’s… The jury’s still out. When I got my dual 2ghz G5, I did a comparison to 64 bit AMD chips, and found that for equal quality, G5’s were right in the same price range as their AMD counterparts. You could build a cheaper Opteron system, but the components generally aren’t in the same league as the G5’s. But again… This is a totally different arguement than “low end pc’s vs. low end mac’s”. 2004-06-30 3:12 pm Do you realize that normal families don’t make 50-70k per year? Maybe if both parents are working but that adds a whole slew of costs all on its own. 2004-06-30 3:14 pm Programs dictate what a computer can do as roads dictates where a car can go. The main function of a car is to go from A to B and they need roads for that. The main function of computers is to do tasks, and they need programs for that. that’s were there is an analogy and that’s where it stops 😉 i would say that protocols would be more similar to roads the programs. that’s how other computers talk to each other, transfer data, and interact with the outside world. programs are like having a personal race track. sure they’re fun, but you can only get so far on them. roads, which let you get places and interact with others are more important in my opinion. and in the protocols department, apple is equal (or dare i say greater!) then most windoze pcs, and that comes from a fairly system-wide acceptance of open standards that microsoft can’t seem to understand. other operating systems (linux, os x, bsd) are trying to help windows play nice in an open world, they’re trying to get windows off its closed-private tracks and out into the open highway. when microsoft starts supporting non-modified, open protocols then maybe it will be let back on the road. oh and to the $700 G5. last i priced out, it was about $1000 to get a low end prebuilt AMD64 box. and since those are mostly commodity generic parts, i find it hard to compare a whitebox pc to a high end workstation. 2004-06-30 3:17 pm LOL A $400 system from Dell has maybe 256MB of RAM that it shares with the video card. That kind of system isn’t going to cut it for doing much of anything. A $700 computer system is low end (Intel) – approaching mid-range (AMD) – for most people. Get to about $1200 and you’ll be reaching the high end for home use (read: non-gaming). Do you really know what “high” means? Yes, given your comments I think you do *wink* 2004-06-30 3:17 pm It is simple: I travel a lot by plane and I always carry my Powerbook. When I open it in the plane it yields wow’s, oh’s and ah’s … and that’s just because of the outside… Last Thursday I spoke to a guy on a business class airfrance flight. He complimented me on my mac and apologized for himself “only” having a VAIO, but “We in our office ….” With Mac you NEVER have to apologize and the oh’s and ah’s really make up for those extra few bucks you have to spend (if at all, counting less maintanance and no virus shit). Everybody has style…. but only some have class. 2004-06-30 3:18 pm At the same time, since it’s based on an open-source, BSD-like Unix, I can leverage much of the open-source software available to Linux users. This comment got me to wondering about when OS X was first announced, we were told the very same thing. But, how can we run the vast majority of Linux software which is x86 on our PPC machines? Am I missing something here? Personally I haven’t seen much open-source Unix software ported to OS X, or maybe I’m not looking in the right places? Several years ago there was an OS X version of MPlayer, but that hasn’t been updated for about 2+ years now. And OS X still cannot play Indeo Video 3/4/5 files. How lame is that?! 2004-06-30 3:38 pm First off, you should check out Fink: http://fink.sourceforge.net/ Then, you should realize that the most recent OS X MPlayer release was March 30, 2004. That is 3 months, not 2+ years: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=62947 Macs can handle some Indeo (although God knows why anyone would want to): http://www.macos.utah.edu/Documentation/OSX_AVI_Solutions1/OSX_AVIS… However, you know even MS has ditched Indeo: “With the September 2002 update to Windows XP (known as Service Pack 1), Microsoft suspended distribution of the Indeo codecs as a base part of its operating system.” 30 seconds of googling would have rectified your “issues.” I guess you’d rather just shout your ignorance rather than learn. 2004-06-30 3:52 pm Personally I haven’t seen much open-source Unix software ported to OS X, or maybe I’m not looking in the right places? Exactly. Maybe you really are not looking at the right places. Someone already pointed out Fink for the starters. Almost all of the programs I’m using now on OSX are exactly the same I was using on Linux before making the switch. The only exception are some Mac/Win-specific audio programs. 2004-06-30 3:58 pm OK, so I was wrong on MPlayer. A quick scan of their site and the related forum proves it isn’t ready for prime time (seems typical of most Unix apps ported to OS X) and it won’t play Indeo Video 3/4/5. Actually, Videolan is the much better app for video playback on OS X. No “configuration” necessary. Just install and use. Macs can handle some Indeo (although God knows why anyone would want to): Classic Mac OS plays Indeo Video 3/4/5 without problems, but a stricly OS X solution does _not_ exist. And yes, unfortunately some of us actually have videos encoded in these formats and still need to be able to access the files. Looks like I’ll have to play around converting them to another format on OS 9. 2004-06-30 4:05 pm Last thing they hyped was the digital hubb idea. A Mac as the center in your home for your multi-media needs, making buying an iPod the next logical step, etc, etc… Fact is, at current entry price point, Apple abandoned this idea. No one in his right mind can expect *many* home users to go for a Mac as digital hub. Offerings-wise, they go for the pro’s, strategy-wise, they declared to get into my living room — I see this going down. Get a grip Apple, change prices, iPod won’t save your ass. 2004-06-30 4:13 pm What you’re suggesting is delayed gratification and it’s a crime against nature, you pervert! And I also see that you got an iBook, not the biggest Powerbook on the block. You are failing to keep up with the Joneses, you pinko freak! — (Psst! Keep a secret. I paid for my car, an Acura, the same way. Nothing beats getting keys + title on the same day.) — You get what you pay for. An XP using friend of mine recently posted the 20 steps (including purchase of firewall software) he had to do to keep his internet surfing safe when he took his $500 PC out of the box. It took him ALL DAY. I countered with the steps I had to take when I had a HD failure about a year ago: Insert disk 1 Insert disk 2 Create my sysadmin account Open the built in firewall and make sure it’s set how I like it. Download and install 3 security updates plus latest iteration of OS. Open Safari, download Opera. Install Opera and tell it to be picky about cookies and to toss them each time Opera is quit. Go. Total Time, 2 hours. 2004-06-30 4:32 pm programs dos not dictate what a computer can do standards do. thats why there is a whole bunch of engineers outside MS that are trying to reverse engineer the the Office formats – its not because of ms office its because of the document standard. as far as standards go, Apple is highly standards compliant. not 100%, but who is. each company has to add in their own special ingredient to diffrentiate themselves. btw some of the standards i talk about are: ethernet tcp/ip family usb firewire pci/pci-x cd/cdr/cdrw/dvd/dvdrw unix – this covers a multitude of unix/linux standards mpg/jpg/mp3, etc. midi/dolby 802.* zero-config/rendevous 220V/120V soap, xml+family all of the above and more are what dictate what a computer can do not the programs that consume or output these standards, albeit, apple is highly standards compliant. people have been fooled (not us, the general populace) unfortunately into thinking that you need MS Office, IE and the like. why then do some of MS’s other products open .doc files – because they are standard compliant with the .doc format not MS Office. and this is why Sun keeps reiterating that open standards are more important than open source. unfortunately for everyone this time, extremists in the open source movement keep diverting attention away from this issue. good luck with your Palladium compliant computers – after you spend 10 years reverse engineering it. btw: i AM pro OSS, just try to show some self destructive tendencies that some of our brothers and sisters have 2004-06-30 4:33 pm Apple understands it needs to spread its DNA and expand market share to keep developers happy. but the rub is this. If they lower prices on powermacs too fast and without another revenue stream then that will kill their earnings and possibly apple. So what do they do? they move into various high-end computing markets and into some high-margin consumer apps. Eventually they will create additional revenue sources which will mitigate the impact of the traditional powermac buyers. Once that is achieved then they can lower prices on powermacs and go after market share. thing is you need high-end computing and volumes to survive these days. Anyone who suggests apple should abandon the desktop is being foolish. Because they have such a low market share, they and they alone can turn traditional computing into a huge growth market (for them). It is a massive market. Why would anyone abandon such a massive opportunity when they already have a foot in the door, strong partners, and incumbents (inte/MS) who keep screwing up and whom a lot of people don’t care for. 2004-06-30 4:42 pm Apple will be able to increase volume, lower development and shipping costs due to the success of iPod and other sales. 2004-06-30 4:47 pm “All you say about interoperability is true, but the smaller market share Apple has, the fewer MacOs compatible software will be available, and the less attractive the platform will be to prospective buyers.” I agree that they have a small market share and that it is a problem, but I do not agree to the extent that it is a problem. I also certainly to do not agree about your comment on the dwindling list of developers for OS X. The number of OS X developers is growing, not shrinking. As for financial software, I am sure it either is out there or something is being developed. PeopleSoft just recently got into developing OS X apps along with Oracle porting their database server and administration software to OS X. PeopleSoft in the past has made accounting applications, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they do the same with OS X. Additionally, the total number of units shipped has gone up for Apple. That would mean that their are more people buying them then their has been historically. Ultimately, the availablility of software is not based on market share, but whether it would be profitable to port their software to a particular platform. Consider Oracle…one of the big boys in database software. Clearly they seen an opportunity to make a profit by porting their software to OS X. I think you will find that the financial software you are looking for, though may not exist currently, is probably going to come out soon enough. The Mac is alive and well. 2004-06-30 4:51 pm “Is this a big enough number of prospective sales to justify a company like microsoft, to rewrite VirtualPC to run on G5’s ? “ Well apparently it is. They are releasing Virtual PC 7 which will run on G5s AND it will allow you to use your native video card rather than an emulated video card. 2004-06-30 5:08 pm the original rationale was that powerpc would start by delivering 2x performance/price ratio, and as cisc stalls, that ratio would increase. this claim was made in 1995. once upon a time, p6 celeron could be dual on an abit BP6 for like $200 multiprocessing using dual celeron 300a. both amd and intel are going in the direction of dual core, for opteron and pentium m architecture. at least for the opteron, those dual core cpus can also be 2-way SMP multiprocessing using NUMA aware SMP OS. according to most benchmarks, the amd64 outperforms the pentium 4ee in most games that matter to hard-core gamers like far cry and unreal 2003 and doom 3. as a result, many hard core gamers are demanding amd64 as opposed to pentium 4ee. NO HARD CORE GAMER IS DEMANDING VIA C3 CPUS. so yes we should be able to buy a dual dual-core G5 for $700 according to Apple’s RISC versus CISC performance curve predictions. if apple did offer such performance at such price point, with QUAKE 3 scores to show for it, i would imagine the industry and especially hard-core games would migrate away from microsoft and x86 for apple. it’s my understanding that both hitachi SH series and ARM series RISC are offering dual-core cpu’s 2004-06-30 5:12 pm I agree Eugene, It would be nice if Apple would start offering system designs and components that let you do things like swap the MB and CPU. That goes against Apple’s deisgn philosophy of making a pre-packaged integrated solution. But it sure would be nice. There is no reason that Apple couldn’t maintain control over the platform. They could just become the sole source of MBs and CPUs. That would prevent the “clone” issue from rising up again while still offering their users, particularly the folks that know how to build a computer, the opportunity to build their own systems or upgrade their existing ones without risk of losing money to competitors. Hell, if they are the sole supplier of the required components, they could sell the parts at retailers…even the Apple stores. I don’t think it will happen though because of their design philosophy. Additionally that would require another batch of tech support people to take calls regarding the mish mash of hardware that people end up putting together. The result could be disastrous if not executed properly. 2004-06-30 5:22 pm The Celery 300a was Slot 1 only, not SMP capable, while the BP6 was (obviously for that matter) Socket 370. You could have fun with single 300a’s at 450 MHz, but the SMP action was Dual 366-socket 370 onwards, most of which did 550 OCed. We got entire trays of 366s to make them run dually on BP6 and on others with Slot to Socket adapters 🙂 2004-06-30 5:49 pm whats the big deal. Market share? who cares? total number of users? who cares? Price? so frekin what? I love this niche and I see no reason to believe that the niche is going to disapear. Windows can keep Joe Standard. 2004-06-30 5:53 pm If you like the Parker pen go for Apple, if you prefer the Bic, go for the grey-box. People, there is a justified difference. And if it comes to TOC I doubt there is any difference. If have been willing to invest in my user-experience and it has paid off. 2004-06-30 5:55 pm >>What’s being held against apple is their higher than market value prices that keeps them from truely becoming mainstream. I guarentee that if I could go out and buy a decent g5 based mac for $700 USD, then I’d be using one right now. I hate statements like this… Guess what? I guarentee that if I could go out and buy a decent BMW X5 for 17,000 I would. More still, I could go out and buy a decent PC for cheap, even build it myself–but I don’t want a PC–I want a Mac. 2004-06-30 6:16 pm “I don’t know where you people get your numbers from, but please show me a decent opteron based PC for $700 USD. Hell, show me a decent P4 based PC for $700 USD.” how bout this just announced: http://news.com.com/Summer+means+back-to-school+desktops+from+HP/21… “The Pavilion a600n’s price comes to $529 after a $50 rebate. It includes an Athlon XP 2800+ processor, 512MB of RAM, an 80GB hard drive, a CD burner, a DVD-ROM drive and a 9-in-1 memory card reader” sounds decent to me. “Meanwhile, the Pavilion a620n, also available at retail, will offer the DVD burner, a DVD+RW format drive, along with a an Athlon XP 3200+ processor, 512MB of RAM, a 160GB hard drive and a CD-ROM drive for $699 after a $50 rebate. HP sees the $699 price point as a retail “sweet spot,” where it can ring up a large number of sales.” sounds more than decent to me. “HP is also offering several other Pavilion models, including the a610y, a650y and a650e, direct to consumers. The a610y and a650y offer successively faster Intel Pentium 4 processors for after-rebate prices starting at $358 and $619, respectively, while the a650e comes with AMD Athlon 64 processors for prices starting at $609 post-rebate.” we could go on and on showing the incredible value of $700 PCs made by myriad vendors. 2004-06-30 6:51 pm I just checked HP’s site to see what the catch is with those prices. So the a610y does not come with a monitor and has integrated video. Unless it’s a nvidia or ati integrated video board, it’s worthless. They don’t specify waht it is. Adding an LCD monitor brings the price up to near $1000. So give me a break, you are not getting a decent machine for $700. Nevermind trying to get a 64-bit chip for that much. I’ll agree that the PPC chips seem overpriced, and that it woudl be nice to be able to buy a low cost headless mac, but you are not getting some wild amazing value for money with PCs. Mostly your just getting budget parts like in your example. 2004-06-30 7:13 pm We want a headless upgradable mac for around that price ($700). There is a market for this kind of thing. I would love to get a cube like thing with a G4 ~1.5 Ghz, ati radeon 9600 (with better and dual monitor BTO/upgradable), 80 gb 7200 rpm harddrive, combo cdrw/dvd rom drive, 256 megs ram default (upgradable to 2 gigs), a couple of pci slots, room to put in a second hard drive for raid, 10/100 nic, onboard sound. They could even make some slower versions for different price points. Apple: I have the money and am willing to buy this! 2004-06-30 7:27 pm it was provided. you didnt ask for monitors. though you didnt ask for it in your earlier thread, you say: “Nevermind trying to get a 64-bit chip for that much.” yet right in the post it says: “while the a650e comes with AMD Athlon 64 processors for prices starting at $609 post-rebate.” $609 gets you the following: http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/cto/computer_customize_c… AMD Athlon(TM) 64 3200+ operating at 2.0GHz Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Home Edition 256 MB DDR / PC3200 (1 DIMM) 80 GB 7200 rpm Ultra DMA Hard Drive FREE UPGRADE from 48x CD-ROM to 48x max CD-Writer 2 USB 2.0, 1 Firewire ports + WinDVD 64MB DDR NVIDIA GeForceFX(TM) 5100, TV-Out Integrated 5.1 Capable Sound w/ front audio ports HP Internet Keyboard, HP Scroller Mouse Microsoft(R) Works 7.0/Money 2004/MSN Encarta Plus thats 64 bit for $609 and you can add a 17″ crt starting at about $50. if you live in the USA, you will also know that these kinds of machines will be on sale at places like compusa, staples, officemax, officedepot, bestbuy, circuitcity, etc. with full bundles that include 17″ flat crts, speakers, and inexpensive $70 model inkjet printers. those prices listed are hp’s prices right out of the gate on brand new models. the retailers will fight for marketshare and will sweeten the deals even further. the ads they run offer great deals and lower prices than hp offers because they want you in the store where they can get add on sales. the retailers make money selling the add on software and peripherals like $25 usb printer cables that they buy for $2. just watch for the sales throughout the summer as the new school year approaches and you will see the above machines for even less money. 2004-06-30 7:41 pm @Anonymous I was able to price out a monitorless 64 bit system for ~$700 with the very basics for everything else (no-dvd). I have to admit that I did not realize that the athlon 64 chips have become so affordable. I’ve always thought highly of the athlon 64 line, so this is nice to see. But this still goes back to what I said before. With Apple it’s not that the hardware itself that is so expensive (other than the processors), it’s that they do not give people the choice to put together a system that fits them. The apple hardware is mostly the same as the pc hardware, and has roughly equivalent prices. Your argument that apple machines are too expensive does not hold water. It is *not* a value for money problem. It’s a ‘they don’t offer what I want’ problem. I agree with Altair, something like an upgradable emac with a good chip but without the lame integrated monitor would be awesome. I’d NEVER buy an emac or imac as they are now though. Integrated monitors and non-upgradable machines such (except for laptops where that is the norm). 2004-06-30 7:48 pm Wow. I would buy the Alienware computer if I could get a complete system for $700.00. Sorry, but that kind of logic about buying a Mac for $700 or less is just an escuse. For those of you who consider that price is the primary consideration: I salute you in your choice. However, that does not give you privilge of looking down you nose at a system that costs much more. Just because I can’t afford a yacht, or a Rolls Royce does not mean that I should denigrate those who do buy such items or the companies that make them. We buy ‘things’ for a variety of reasons. Price is only one of many variables. You afford what you decide you can afford. Happy shopping. If you have ligitimate questions or positive comments. Please make them. That is what forums are for. The spitting contests and unreal logic are getting tiresome. 2004-06-30 7:51 pm http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/cto/computer_customize_c… produces the following for $724 same as above but with this added 512 MB DDR / PC3200 (1 DIMM) 48x max. CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drive (48x24x16x48x) or for $789 you can get it with 8X DVD+RW/+R drive (DVD writer & CD-writer combo) but again, hps prices are higher direct than what you will get buying at local retailers when they are on sale and include rebates. hp/compaq/emachines are the biggies for rebate offers through retail channels. and you will get speakers, 17″ crt, and inkjet for the same price. just watch a place like dealnews.com and look at your sunday paper’s advertisements. 2004-06-30 9:17 pm Why the hell can’t people realize that people simply don’t buy Macs for their price??? Obviously, if price was an only consideration, anyone with a brain would buy a PC. It’s no secret that a $1000 PC will outperform a $1000 Mac in most tasks. When one buys a Mac, it’s not for sheer performance but for the overall user experience and for other people’s reactions. OSX and iLife are, in many people’s opinions, much nicer to use than Windows XP and its assorted multimedia apps. This alone can be a big factor in purchasing a computer. Secondly, some people want to distinguish themselves from the cheap-plastic world of PC’s by carrying around a Mac instead. Trust me, they DO draw attention in public, and some people are willing to pay a premium for this. 2004-06-30 10:43 pm Dj Jedi Jeff, you should back up your statements with FACTS!!! http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html I am right, you are wrong. 2004-07-01 3:10 pm My mistake. I was extrapolating from overall median income figures (which include single people). Apparently married people make more. But there’s no need to be a jerk about it. 2004-07-06 7:04 am It’s increasingly clear that unless Apple can offer a 64-bit system with 1GB of 1GHz RAM, over 200GB hard drive space, a Radeon9800 or better and a 20″ LCD monitor for under $100 then they’re going to fail. As simple as that. Apple must be dying, because they don’t sell their hardware at a price that anyone can afford instantly, no matter how much money they earn. They just can’t sustain their business model. If Apple were to drop their prices, then apparently every single PC user on the face of the Earth would switch instantly. I keep seeing that in online forums so it must be true. The road to success is clear. As Apple aren’t calling me right now to advise their board of directors, I’m calling for Jobs to resign in shame.