Gartner: Ignore Longhorn and Stick with XP SP2

Eugenia Loli 2004-09-11 Windows 51 Comments

Because of the long march to Longhorn, Gartner recommended that companies standardize on Windows XP SP2 so that they will have the option of buying into the first Longhorn release or waiting for a future release that includes WinFS. In the mean time, customers shouldn’t make plans that include the system, Gartner said.

About The Author

Eugenia Loli

Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.

Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli

51 Comments

2004-09-11 5:16 pm

Anonymous
Finally an intelligent comment from Gartner. I guess, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I think it really is still to early to tell, but I suspect Gartner is correct given the overall direction of Longhorn.

Honestly though, I think it is time for companies to seriously think about Linux in the Longhorn window after staying with XP sp2 for the next 3-4 years. I am not a Linux Supporter (I’m actually a Mac guy) but I think MS’s lack of innovation and ability to build a secure OS, mail program, and internet browser at this point is reflective of systemic cultural issues in MS. Yes, MS has the money and thousands of world-class people, but they can’t just seem to get it done, even after Bill Gates made Security Job #1. In a way, it’s very similar to how Ford made quality job #1, but it still couldn’t match their competitors even a decade later. Things like this are as much about cultural focus and organizational priorities than the right people. Plus, with MS cutting benefits to people and making it seem more like a big company than a scappy innovator, this is only going to compound the problem.

I think a move to Linux is good for companies. The pace of innovation is much faster across the board. It is more secure. You are in more control of a core technology. And it’s cheaper, despite the many ROI research reports MS pays for. I am yet to find a real world CIO who thinks going with MS solutions is cheaper.

I think at the end of the day CIO’s are going to ask themselves why they need to wait until 2009 to have things like total search when they can have them in 2005 in they are on the OSX or Linux platform.
2004-09-11 5:34 pm

Anonymous
heh, looks like the upcoming release of os x 10.4 tiger really made m$ go back to drawing boards.

well, what can i say – we (pc people) had been living an illusion again, that ms can write something from the ground up and make it good this time. time for disillusion :

microsoft is going the old route again, throwing the beta components of the new system at us (.NET, in future winfx and whatever they ‘invent’ next)and gathering the information about bugs, leaks and non working versions.

that was the case with win32s 32 bit extensions to win 3.11 , directx, and explorer, all of which eventually ended up built-in into the system.

nothing new under the sun, people.
2004-09-11 5:37 pm

Anonymous
I believe Gartner is dead-correct on this one. Longhorn will be the first release of the new OS, and just like when OS X came out, it will be slow, buggy, and clumbsy. Companies should wait until it’s second release. (That is, if it comes out like Microsoft wants it to – There’s no telling if Longhorn will even be good yet.)
2004-09-11 5:48 pm

Anonymous
I was trying to remember the name of this article for a while now, and it finally came to me:

http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0422/040602_news_microsoft.ph…

It’s a good read if someone missed it, and it discusses the culture that’s endemic to Microsoft. It might even been in OSnews a while back, I can’t remember.

The Gartner recommendation is really just common sense for anyone following the recent developments on the MS front. The big difference for all the IT managers out there is that now they can use Gartner’s clout to start bringing the situation into focus for all the pointy haired bosses out there.
2004-09-11 6:12 pm

Anonymous
forget about SP2 stick with XP SP1
2004-09-11 6:21 pm

Anonymous
Leave Microsoft behind, move to one of the Linux distributions and stop dealing with the problems.
2004-09-11 6:32 pm

Anonymous
good advice.
2004-09-11 6:32 pm

Anonymous
“Leave Microsoft behind, move to one of the Linux distributions and stop dealing with the problems.”

Sure…and just deal with a whole new set of problems and a lack of experience with a different OS.

Sorry, but there is a cost/benefit ratio that says that it just costs a lot to switch to a different OS…I don’t care which one either.

I am using Linux as well as eXPee and it is not just a simple matter to just “switch.” Most companies and individuals that do that have spend a LOT of time (possibly money) and energy to learn a NEW os.

I too would like to see Linux one day be more common than Windows, but the reality is that it won’t happen anytime soon because most people don’t want to have to go through learning the ins and outs of a new OS like Linux.

No OS is perfect. Linux has its own set of problems which are compounded by those who lack experience using, configuring, and understanding it.
2004-09-11 6:44 pm

Anonymous
I would rather see what impact WinFS would have on system security.What specific has been done to make the filesystem

more secure.Better search capabilities will aid also an intruder.

Will there be an page file in Longhorn? If so will the page file

be encrypted or do you still have to choose the last resort:

“clear page file when system shutting down” that is so good for your security option?

Does the system still heavily depend on lsass.exe,RPC,DCE?

Will there be an adaware like app in Longhorn or is an adware / spyware possible virus less system still not seen as an improvement in comfort? I would pay more for some real security enhancements than some extra stuff

that i didn’t ask for in the first place.Will there be a lot of services and settings disabled by default and only enabled if the user installs an application that needs it?For example null-sessions .An average user doesn’t need Restrict Anonymous to be 1 certainly not 0.Why should The Remote Registry Service be On on a clean installed system?

I use OpenBSD,Linux, and windows XP professional ( what’s the meaning of professional in the ms context? more security decreasing features?)

I think i will throw away the XP PC and go for Mac OS X as an replacement for

windows XP.

I think that I’m capable of finding my stuff on the PC , especially on the desktop.
2004-09-11 6:48 pm

Anonymous
Its funny to see when people talk about switching users to a new OS, claiming that it would be difficult for those users to have to relearn a whole new OS. Lets think back a couple years when M$ made the leap from the Windows 3.x series to Windows 95. The UI was dramatically different, people bitched and complained that they didnt like it, they wanted their old interface back, they didnt want to learn something new. But they did, the same thing (not as dramatic) happenes with every OS release. Look at earlier MacOS versions compared to Mac OS X. Sure they are similar but there are big differences, which took people time to get used to. The same thing would occur if someone switched to using Linux, depending on what desktop environment they would be using, there would be a slight level of readjustment, relearning involved. But my point being, there is always this level no matter what, so it should not be the defining reasoning behind what OS people should use.
2004-09-11 6:55 pm

Anonymous
You’d get the impression from the headline that Gartner is finally being critical of Microsoft, but really this is them continuing to shill.

Gartner recommended that companies standardize on Windows XP SP2 so that they will have the option of buying into the first Longhorn release

Isn’t this exactly the same advice Bill Gates would give?

“We recommend you buy XP, because that’s what’s available now. We strongly recommend staying away from Longhorn until it’s realeased to consumers.”
2004-09-11 6:59 pm

Anonymous
He actually meant that those who have already implemented

XP shouldn’t switch to soon to XP-SE.
2004-09-11 7:18 pm

Anonymous
True that people bitched and moaned about learning the new Win95 style UI (partially my point in the previous post). Here is the other side that I didn’t really get to. Cost. People have already bought Windows software that they aren’t ready, and can’t necessarily give up. This was true back with Win95 just as much as it is today. I was able to transition to Win95 easily because my Win 3.1 apps ran within Win95 just fine. That can not be said about running many apps today in Linux.

Try for instance running Dreamweaver. Its not going to happen. Sure, Wine might help…but it might not.

Further certain applications that are needed for work environments do not necessarily work on Linux with things like Wine in place either. For instance, I have to use a special Cisco VPN client to access networks at work. The client will run in any version of Windows but not in Linux with Wine. I have tried the Linux version of our VPN client, but it wont work with my distro (or many of the other more modern distros – only with RH 7.2).

So you in a way helped prove part of my point – different OS results in people bitching about the UI. Lots of people wont switch for that reason. The other side of it is app compatibility. Linux has a WONDERFUL selection of apps…but not every app is available that companies or individuals want to use or have to use. You can try and use tools like wine or crossover in linux to get the windows versions of software to run in linux, but that frequently doesn’t work, and sometimes even the linux versions wont work.

Another issue involving OS famialiarity: dependency hell. It is a real problem still on Linux. Sure, you can make claims that things like apt-get or yum will take care of that – but it simply isn’t completely true. Dependency hell is still a major issue, particularly for newbs. That is why Linux has a higher cost, time and energy consumption than sticking with Windows.

Better the devil that you know than the devil you don’t.
2004-09-11 7:33 pm

Anonymous
I totally agree with the following:

‘Another issue involving OS famialiarity: dependency hell. It is a real problem still on Linux. Sure, you can make claims that things like apt-get or yum will take care of that – but it simply isn’t completely true. Dependency hell is still a major issue, particularly for newbs. That is why Linux has a higher cost, time and energy consumption than sticking with Windows’.

HOW long is it before they fix the BASICS that do not work.

In my opinion was that ‘OpenSource’ fixed problems and not let them set unsettled. It boggles my mind for them to constantly bash Microsoft when they are NO better at fixing the SAME problems that occur over and over. Now that is frustrating, I don’t care about the new release of KDE or Gnome for looks. I want the problems fixed that did not work before. It is like a patch fest, which grows very, very tiresome with no end.

Now those saying just ditch Windows, that is like saying quit your job and enter a new field without thinking about the longterm affects of it. PLUS, the fact that MULTI-MEDIA in Linux is LACKING big time. No one wants to pay for anything, so you are left trying to find workarounds and my time is worth more to me than searching a user forum for answers. It should WORK out of the box if it is paid for. If the Linux community can’t handle multi-media then they should not be in the OS business, plain and simple.

Say what you will about Windows, as long it works and it is not broken don’t mess with it. Having transluent menu’s (KDE), lots of applications that crash with SEGV errors is not what I would call ‘quality’ software. It is time for the OpenSource movement to fix its flaws, then I would say they can have the right to complain about MS software it actually works out of the box…….

This is the way I see and so does the majority of users who are sick of memory hogging screen savers and cute desktop menus. Just build something that works, without all the added fluff.
2004-09-11 7:53 pm

Anonymous
I’m switching to Longhorn and there’s nothing you can do about it!

Heh, it amuses me to think, to really critically think, with my brain, about these things. If I wanted to I could switch to GNOME 2.8 or 2.9 when its under development, like so many other DEs, applications and even kernels available to the open source communities. Why does Microsoft force their customers to wait years to try out a new release of their OS?

Well, if you believe how wonderful Longhorn will be, I’m developing this Linux based OS that’s going to blow away everything out there. There will never be a need to upgrade, because it will be perfect. Its completely secure. Faster than anything ever made. And the filesystem? Revolutionary. Instead of searching through directories to find files you just think of what you want and it brings it to you. Absolutely amazing. And it’s only going to cost you $10 a month, for the first 3 months.
2004-09-11 7:57 pm

Anonymous
This is were Apple has been so clever.Everything works out of the box, great gui,and a lot is based on UNIX, which means

a lot of security and control under the hood.
2004-09-11 8:16 pm

Anonymous
Before a comapny can switch to Linux, there has to be a reasonable accounting package, among other business tools available for Win32 only.
2004-09-11 8:21 pm

Anonymous
I’m surprised that they didn’t say to use Windows 95.
2004-09-11 8:37 pm

Anonymous
“the fact that MULTI-MEDIA in Linux is LACKING big time. No one wants to pay for anything, so you are left trying to find workarounds and my time is worth more to me than searching a user forum for answers. It should WORK out of the box if it is paid for. If the Linux community can’t handle multi-media then they should not be in the OS business, plain and simple.”

Whats the big problem with multimedia in Linux? Seriously I want to know what the problem you’re having is, because as far as I’ve seen, there is no problem.

I don’t see how not wanting to pay for things is an issue, I myself have no less than 5 DVD players, 3 CD players, and quite a collection of both types of media.

The media players/frameworks that exist for linux work, even if some of their features might not be legal in some places. Not to mention that there are now three commercial DVD players now that I know of: a version of Xine with a DVD license, Fluendo’s in development player based on gstreamer, and LinDVD thats only available bundled with hardware. Audio and video play back have worked for me out of the box on distros for a long time.

I think what you’re missing is that the Linux community isn’t in the OS business at all. The community isn’t a business period. For a commercial home distro, you’re absolutely right that things should work out of the box, and as far as I’ve seen, they do.
2004-09-11 8:55 pm

Anonymous
sp2 is pretty good overall. ms cant force software companies to produce products that operate correctly in limited user priviledge mode for windows xp. ms cant force users to learn how to use limited user acounts when running their programs especially when on the internet. all of ms programs that i run work correctly for multiuser accounts. i have not been infected with a single virus/worm/trojan since learning to operate a limited user account. ms is only half of the security equation the other half is everybody else doing their part. people have time for their video and audio downloads, tv, and other forms of entertainment then make time for your patches and learning how to use limited user accounts when on the internet. if everbody wants the computer to be as simple as a tv then the present and future security situation for ms is hopeless.
2004-09-11 9:18 pm

Anonymous
“Whats the big problem with multimedia in Linux? Seriously I want to know what the problem you’re having is, because as far as I’ve seen, there is no problem.”

There’s a big difference between player apps and applications built to create the content in the first place.
2004-09-11 9:34 pm

Anonymous
What’s wrong with 2k? Many companies are still with it, and it’s still doing as good a job as XP for most office tasks. The only difference in many coporate eyes is the inclusion of security “enhancements” in XP SP2, which has broken quite a few business / in-house apps around the world
2004-09-11 9:41 pm

Anonymous
A smart strategy: put linux on most of the servers (file servers, mail servers, routers, etc using only free software), concentrate all your win32 legacy applications installed into one or more Windows 2003 Servers with terminal server or ICA enabled and use thin-client solutions like LTSP (www.ltsp.org) or Thinstation (thinstation.sf.net) on every desktops (you can use a normal linux distribution also on the newer PCs). People can run win32 legacy applications on windows servers using rdesktop (www.rdesktop.org) from their linux boxes. For new internal developments, use only platform-neutral languages and technologies like PHP, Python, Java, etc.

This is the strategy we and many friends here in Brazil are using. Lack of win32 compatibility of linux is not excuse to remain M$-addicted and perpetuate the lock-in state.
2004-09-11 10:19 pm

Anonymous
‘The media players/frameworks that exist for linux work, even if some of their features might not be legal in some places’.

This is the whole problem, it is NOT LEGAL and therefore not right.

Now if you enter the ‘Enterprise, Corporation, ect’ this is a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is why multi-media is a problem and the licensing needs to be addressed.

There are several areas where multi-media does NOT work out of the box. One example is RH9 where you have to download a RPM for the XMMS player to play MP3’s. I think after paying $39 or so for it, the player should play it right??? If they put it in, it should work period Distro wise.

Another set of examples:

Unfortunately, there are vocal users who like to slam Linux Distributions as unusable simply because they cannot play an encrypted DVD out of the box (these people must use XP Media Center as their main OS). This is not new, over the years there have been many distractors who would say “If Linux would ……. I would use it as my main OS.” The old reasons were – if I could browse the web better, or if the fonts looked better, etc. basically the old reasons have now become Linux’s strengths. The current “complaint” is the DVD playback issue, which I don’t think can be resolved any better than it is now. The issue at hand is about a law and not technological.

Both Mandrake and Suse provide the Xine multimedia application for video playback. Unfortunately, both are very limited in that it includes few plugins for different media types. Mandrake’s provided Xine has more functionality than Suse’s, and a quick download of the win32 codecs improves both tremendously. Neither Mandrake nor Suse will play an encrypted DVD “out of the box”, but a quick Internet search for packages will solve this issue.

From:

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=8232&limit=no“ rel=”nofollow”>http://anon.free.anonymizer.com/

2004-09-11 10:27 pm

Anonymous

True enough but as usual you forget that Joe Average expects *everything* to work like his TV!…

If you can’t make Windows secure (limited accounts or no) “by default” then YES, MS *are* shafted on that front. I don’t care much for MS but by holding 95%+ of the desktop market they also get 98%+ of the “I want it to work like a TV” users….

If you can’t make a *nix distro that installs from a “one button” interface and “just works out of the box” you’ll never tackle the “better the devil you know” brigade…

Mac OS falls in the middle IMHO – *nix security, one button install, all major software types supported, stay 100% MS free if that’s what you want, access to the Darwin BSD core if you want… (Warning: professional Mac user *Bias Alert* should be invoked heavily here… )

NB. Recently tried installing a FreeBSD/KDE distro on an old Dell Dimensions PII 333MHz box for purpose of venturing into this *nix world. Took 4 attempts to get it up and huge number of hardware configure loops to get it up properly – still can’t get it to recognise the SoundBlaster… (Yes I am a total newb,,, a load of flames regarding “basic” *nix .config issues will just be ignored – helpful comments gratefully accepted…) Overall looks OK, but if I’m online why not get the *nix security via a Mac and if I’m only using it offline why not get the familiarity *many* users need by running whatever iteration of Windoze it can sensibly handle?..

Cheers

2004-09-11 11:59 pm

Anonymous

Like I pointed out, there ARE ‘legal’ players available for linux. Three that I currently know of although to be fair right now, one is only available on one distro, one is still in development, and one is only available if you are an OEM or purchase a computer with it. With distros concentrating on appealing to users having to pay large licensing fees for such things its an important issue for them to address. Although its not an issue at all in some parts of the world.

Suse, Redhat, and other commercial distros that don’t include support for certain formats, do so out of the dual fear of being sued by the media companies, and out of fear of losing their open source supporters if they include proprietary players that would restrict the distribution of the distro.

If you are a corporation and need to have audio, streaming video and such, you have a very good open solution in the Ogg family of formats. There is no need to break the law. For authoring media, there are also a fair number of open (and proprietary) programs.

I personally have no trouble playing DVDs with totem, as I’ve already brought up I own 5 DVD players, and when I use totem I’m using a hardware DVD decoder card. Technically watching my own DVDs in this setup is illegal under linux. Just because something is illegal doesn’t mean that it isn’t morally right. I think you could make a pretty good legal argument that ownership of a DVD implies permission to view the material, encoded or not. Especially when the encryption does not effectively prevent the copying of the disk, or control access to the material.

2004-09-12 12:07 am

Anonymous

With all due respect, if someone expects a computer to work like a TV, they’re going to be really annoyed that their remote control only has too buttons, and is attached by a wired, and a keyboard is going to confuse the living daylights out of them. Let’s drop the ‘computing is like’ metaphors… A computer or a program isn’t like a car, a building, a TV or any other real world object. Computing is complex and continues to increase in complexity.

And yes, RH9 doesn’t play MP3s out of the box. Mandrake did and does; so does SuSE, and many others.

Playing DVDs is a special case, and you know that. It is unfair to judge operating systems on the business limitations imposed by a completely different industry.

The only legal issue with Linux, is the playback of DVDs, and that is ambiguous. We have never seen the MPAA suing a company for the use of DeCSS on Linux, and it’s a fight they might not win in court.

But Linux does support a wide range of multimedia authoring tools, such as sound editors, video editors and high end rendering packages. So much so in fact, that Linux is used by Pixar, Weta Digital and a wide range of multimedia design houses and studios. These are people on the bleeding edge of multimedia, who *prefer* Linux.

In general, of course, Enterprise/Corporations, namely large-scale business rarely has use of multimedia tools. They need stable systems, which are secure and reliable, for well defined workloads. Windows crashes. We all know it does. WinXP helps, but not enough.

Security in Windows is a problem. It’s still a problem, and while worm attacks are abating, trojans and spyware are the next big war, and one that I, as a technical manager am facing on a daily basis.

If you really want to pretend that most businesses would trade DVD computer playback (which they can and do perform on DVD player hardware and TVs, for heaven’s sake!) for security and stability, that’s up to you.

But if you want to talk about legality, the truth is that you can get around DVD playback problems with a dedicated player. That’s what the MPAA wants you to do.

HOWEVER, running Windows presently exposes your company and your data to threats such as trojans and spyware, which are far more dangerous. You’ll note clearly that companies are under far more immediate obligations to protect sensitive data, both trade secrets and customer/client information. Failing to do this properly will see people sued and subject to serious problems.

That’s where the legal danger lies.

2004-09-12 12:12 am

Anonymous

…Computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, “If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.”

In response to Bill’s comments, General Motors issued a press release stating: If GM had developed technology like! Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics (and I just love this part):

1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.

2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.

3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.

4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.

5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive – but would run on only five percent of the roads.

6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single “This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation” warning light.

7. The airbag system would ask “Are you sure?” before deploying.

8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.

9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.

10. You’d have to press the “Start” button to turn the engine off.

How does one ignore anything Microsoft does?

2004-09-12 1:58 am

Anonymous

If you are going to compare Linux OS on computers to Mac or Windows do the following:

Only compare the forms of Linux that come pre-installed on specific hardware that has been setup by an retail I.T. Professional.

How many fn users who use Mac OS-X or Windows XP buy or download the fn software them selves and then installs it on their own talored PC hardware???? ANYBODY????

Sick of all this Linux is not as good crap cause it can’t be like what people expect WindowsXP/Mac OS-X is when these systems are 99.9% time preloaded on hardware and have the apps pre-installed for Jeo DUmmy Computer User!

Get a clue.

As for Fedora not being able to play MP3’s/DVD’s $%$@#^$# Try using a better and non propreitry codec like hmmmmm let’s see, Ogg Vorbis or installing a DVD player that is licensed (but you will have to part with cash for that like in the Windows/Mac world)????

These arguments are getting really tired and just show

1. the level of bias out there and

2. the level of ignorance people have about codecs, software and the nature of Open Systems.

Sick and tired of stupidity.

FLAME AWAY I’m gone…. Poof….

2004-09-12 2:27 am

Anonymous

I am the almighty grr. and longhorn will be really popular and people will buy 6 copys of it for there homenetwork then install it and whine that its 2 insecure not write a million email or formal letters to M$ and just continue 2 bitch then a few will switch 2 a new os and the cicle will continue

2004-09-12 2:54 am

Anonymous

You wrote; ‘In general, of course, Enterprise/Corporations, namely large-scale business rarely has use of multimedia tools. They need stable systems, which are secure and reliable, for well defined workloads. Windows crashes. We all know it does. WinXP helps, but not enough’.

What are you refering to ‘Windows Crashes’ if ANY operating system is crashing then it is the HARDWARE or USER ERROR. I find it amazing how someone states, that Windows crashes like W2K, WinXP Pro, or WinServer 2000 ect… OR even Windows NT workstation or Server. Proper system administration and the ability to solve problems helps a lot and goes a long way.

As far Windows XP stability it is rock solid as W2K was. If you have faulty hardware, motherboard, nic, hard-drive, or a slopped together ‘Sanford and Son’ machine I could only imagine it would crash.

Now quit making up stories of how ‘Windows’ has these mysterious crashes and stop with this non-sense.

2004-09-12 3:46 am

Anonymous

Windows maybe like a rock but rocks crumble with the elements(users,INTERNET(hackers/viruses/malware/spyware/exc)poor system configs,tech departments with 2 much locked

2004-09-12 4:18 am

Anonymous

Gartner expects me to follow advice for a technology that hasn’t even been released yet. What a crock. I will judge Longhorn on its merits when it is released, not a year and a half before the ship date. I dont care that WinFS is not included and the article reads like it was written by someone who thinks Longhorn = WinFS and nothing more.

2004-09-12 5:23 am

Anonymous

“Leave Microsoft behind, move to one of the Linux distributions and stop dealing with the problems.”

Yea, and let us deal with a whole new set of Linux problems… Sorry, but maybe Linux isnt always the answer, despite what zealots may wish to believe

2004-09-12 5:48 am

Anonymous

“Sick of all this Linux is not as good crap cause it can’t be like what people expect WindowsXP/Mac OS-X is when these systems are 99.9% time preloaded on hardware and have the apps pre-installed for Jeo DUmmy Computer User!”

Uhh… Sorry, but I cant be near as efficient on Linux as I can on Windows. So for me, its not as good. Oh no! I must be lying! Face it. Linux isnt as good for many people. I have many friends that I leant Linux CDs to, only to have Windows replace it in the not too distant future. Why? It didnt work for them! Even in the chance that all your hardware works exactaly how it should, I still like the fact that I dont have to do work arounds to use many of my programs. I could use WINE and such, but why? So I can just simulate that Windows envornoment that many hate so much? Heck, I had more problems with crashing and finding proper replacements for programs such as 3D Studio and Adobe Photoshop than what it was worth when I was dual booting Linux. The ease of computing that Windows gives me is well worth the asking price. Free stuff may be great, but I for one would rather pay money for something that has a better chance of working (rather than wasting my time getting stuff to work).

Now, I will tell you that I am not an IT professional (i’m still a student!). However, I have tried several Linux distros and have actually gotten one to work (though I still didnt enjoy the experience). Besides, if it takes an IT professional to set up an OS and get it to run properly, then we have problems. I have more important things to do then get my OS working properly. Besides, isnt it amazing that Windows can work on so many different hardware combinations while Linux might work if you are lucky? My Windows XP didnt come preinstalled (built my own system) yet it works perfectly.

2004-09-12 6:21 am

Anonymous

Yea, and let us deal with a whole new set of Linux problems…

This is a silly attitude. It means that you have to stick to a decision despite possible better alternatives. You presume that the sum and severity of problems to deal with is the same on any OS. It’s not.

Switching might be a hassle first, but might pay off in the long run. And – the sooner you switch to a better solution, the longer you can profit from it and the lesser you have investet in the inferior solution. Besides, switching Windows Versions might be a hassle, too.

I know that Linux is not an answer for all problems and has its weaknesses (I myself recommend Mac OSX), but – mass-migration away from Windows would be a real blessing:

– more competition (and hence more solutions to choose from),

– more (open) standards,

– better standard adoption (no MS which can cook their own),

– less security problems,

– less vulnerable monoculture (e. g. W2K bug),

– less Microsoft dictating what the user “wants” (see DRM),

– less Microsoft intruding in new markets and destroying better solutions with inferior products through simple price wars and marketing power,

– no more Hollywood dealing with Redmond about what users can or cannot do in the future,

– etc..

But: things can only change when people switch. The market will follow, not lead.

And one cannot expect Joe Sixpack to start switching. Switching starts with the decision of IT pros and educated users. Favouring a more open solution for the benefit of everybody is their responsiblity..

2004-09-12 8:21 am

Anonymous

There isn’t an true ideal Operating System.Mostly when people are more in to advanced forms of Computer use they might end up with dual boot configurations or more PC’s.More than once the mix of Operating Systems and or different kind of computer architectures getting the job, (preferably cost/time efficient) done together in the end was emphasized.Most people just see a PC as a tool to communicate ,watch videos ,be creative in whatever form, but not necessary the PC as a whole ( Operating System , Computer Architecture) is their hobby/profession.They tend to choose the OS which matches most of their targets best.For a lot of people at there isn’t a reason to switch.Windows XP or Mac OSX does the job.On the other hand if you would like to explore the world of programming , or you would like to direct one and another process on your PC it’s there where the true power of all OSS,CSS-UNIX Mac OSX gets revealed.Windows doesn’t come with a c## compiler in it’s default configuration, nor does it have perl,python,the average user simply doesn’t know and probably wouldn’t want to know.But is a operating system bad just because there are no (free) programming tools in it besides some basic scripting? I would like to thank all Open/Closed source developers for their time and efforts.I enjoy watching everyday there’s emerging some new technique,distro,feature.There is so much to learn and so littletime.Let’s waste no time.

Would be nice if things would be judged upon in a more mature and objective way rather than throwing Mudd at eatchother.

2004-09-12 9:15 am

Anonymous

First of all, what is the deal with Gartner? They’re like the Pope or something; they make these sweeping recommendations like they have special insight from God or something. Some of these make sense and some don’t, but I’ve never seen anything mindblowingly insightful from them. I suppose they’re important because apparently news outlets and possibly corporations think they’re important. Is there a firm basis in this?

(Apparently they have some kind of really really intense and valuable methodology to their studies, what with everyone falling all over themselves to rationalize their decisions on the basis that Gartner Group agrees.)

But sometimes I’ll see something from them, an opinion that some random internet user had that I read like 8 months ago on some deep thread comment on Slashdot, and I wonder what the great insight is. Hell, I should start my own company and just start making proclamations and recommendations and get a bunch of people who have some letters after their names or worked in the local BigCorp, and start making mad bank by releasing studies that say complicated and insightful things like “Linux might be expensive to roll out cos its RILLY RILLY HARD 4 SOME PEOPLE 2 LEARN!”

They kind of annoy me, but honestly I’ve never been in a position to buy one of their reports – how good are they? I’ve only ever read exerpts and summaries.

It’s like when I read financial news and they interview 8 “experts” on financial markets who have 9 completely conflicting opinions. Sheesh, I’d almost rather just read OSNews and Slashdot and decide for myself who has the best argument. Are these reports generally comprehensive to the point that they warrant Gartner’s position as some kind of clairvoyant authority on the future, and what’s “good for business?”

Now on this point they may or may not be right – it’s not that Gartner is always wrong or anything, its just that the summaries I read in news articles that point to them are…well, common sense, or common opinions I’ve heard elsewhere. So, as regards Longhorn, they might be right, and it maybe even sounds like they are. But Gartner still annoys me anyway. I just remain unimpressed. I doubt they’ve been right, in the long term, about much more than I’ve been right about, and I’m just, some dude.

Second, look, the reality of Windows is this:

Microsoft could invade your CEO’s home, burn his house down, and torture his children, and that company would still wind up buying Windows. There is nothing anyone can say or do, overall, that will change the tide of people flocking to Windows. Momentum is everything, and people *hate* change even though they are typically far more adaptable to it than they think. When every successive Windows version comes out, people (other than true computer enthusiasts) immediately look for something to hate about it. They groan, they whine, they seem to go out of their way to annoy me with their constant complaining about it. Then they adapt and badmouth what they used to use. (Or they’re like those people who still think DOS 6.22 was the greatest OS ever and they still wish they could use Wordperfect 5.1).

Nevertheless, the vast majority of people I know complain about Windows constantly, yet use it anyway. If Windows required 8 reboots a day and regularly scrambled their data, they’d still use it. (In all cases I’m talking about the desktop, which is what people who aren’t computer wonks are used to).

There are organizations here or there which may switch, but overall, a Space Demon could threaten to destroy earth with an intergalactic snot-ray unless they stopped using Windows, but they wouldn’t.

I know tons of flat-out computer geeks (even!) who have never tried a Mac or Linux or a BSD, who complain daily about crashes, security breaches, and all of the things people typically complain about as relate to Windows, and won’t even consider switching. They never have any well-defined reason other than they’re uncomfortable with taking a few weeks to learn something else, and would rather spend years being frustrated, angry, and unsatisfied. Whatever, it’s their life.

My own experience is that Windows is neither as bad as its loudest critics or as good as its mainstream apologists say it is. But this is moot; whether Longhorn is a horrible pile of dung or an evolutionary breakthrough, nothing will stop its eventual adaptation by the world at large. Nothing. It’s dumb animal momentum which drives its popularity for better or for worse. People will groan about it and most average users will hate the new file system and complain about that, endlessly, and roll their eyes at you like you must agree with them since anything new is obviously crappy extravagant bloat.

So when people get mad at Bill Gates for whatever reason, the point here is *he doesn’t care*. He doesn’t shake in his boots. If he gets concerned about Linux its because it might take 2 or 3% market share from him, not that he’s going to lose to it. It’s about being able to afford not just his 79th and 80th sportscar or whatever, rather than only being able to buy 77 or 78.

Microsoft is undead in a world seemingly free of wooden stakes or silver bullets.

I just hope that since its continued dominance on the desktop is inevitable (and yes, I know there are tons of arguments why this isn’t the case – I still think I’m right, and believe me I’m a big fan of Linux and use it as *my* desktop), the product improves and becomes more secure. I don’t use XP but I do use Windows 2000, and this was a great leap ahead over anything that came before it, and I hope this continues and picks up pace.

Windows is something we’re going to have to live with for a long time, whether we wish it to be so or not. Just like the mediocre men and women we elect as our leaders.

2004-09-12 9:37 am

Anonymous

does Windows play DVD out of the box ?

you need to pay for and install 3rd party software. powerdvd or windvd for example to get the codecs to let you play dvd.

@deleted

WINE does not simulate a windows environment. it is a translator not an emulator.

2004-09-12 11:58 am

Anonymous

WINE does not simulate a windows environment. it is a translator not an emulator.

Its not even that, it is an ABI, Application Binary Interface, just as you can run a UNIXWare binary on Solaris, one mearly needs to implement the PE binary format, and re-create the win32 API on the chosen operating system and voila, thats it.

2004-09-12 12:54 pm

Anonymous

‘Windows maybe like a rock but rocks crumble with the elements(users,INTERNET(hackers/viruses/malware/spyware/exc)poor system configs,tech departments with 2 much locked.’

I don’t know what ‘Windows’ you are talking about but saying that viruses, malware ect??? So is the same for Linux, downloading various ‘free’ programs from who knows where… There are MANY holes in Linux, just go to Suse, Redhat (Fedora) and the same and LOOK at the PATCHES for serious Exploits (SSH, apache, kernel, PHP remote code execution, samba-remote root compromise and SO ON)…..

If you are going to compare apples to apples then compare them fairly, I would say a Linux distro as more than its FAIR share of holes, exploits and hacker takeovers.

2004-09-12 2:41 pm

Anonymous

I know

but a “translator” is a better way to explain it to someone like deleted who says he is no technician.

That seems to be Joe Users problem with Linux. They think they will be made to feel stupid for actually having to ask help from a geek. Or if they do ask for help they get a break down like what you gave.

I am from the UK and I was reading the BBC website today. There is a news item about diabetes websites being too difficult for the general population to read. The breakdown of the whole page was that the normal western population has the reading abilities of a 9 year old. So what chance would a normal user have with the post you made ?

NOW.

I stick by my defination.

WINE is a translator. It translates calls from the original Windows programs and diverts them to the Linux equivalent. It does not give the user a full Windows environment, like VMWare would. You do not need to recreate the win32 API. If you have a dual boot setup, WINE will use that, if not, it will implement a translation mode directly to Linux.

2004-09-12 3:08 pm

Anonymous

You know exactly which Windows they are talking about… Every single version of Windows that has ever been released.

I think you read about the Linux exploits somewhere, but never actually read what the exploits are, they are nowhere near as dangerous or long lasting as the exploits in Windows. Granted, one or two would let someone install a rootkit on your pc, but what harm would that do ? Apart from ruining YOUR machine.

Some are serious, like, if you had a company website that took credit card orders, a vunerability might allow someone to install a rootkit and send out the credit card details.

Mandrake, SuSe, Fedora, RedHat, all have update options which will download, upgrade packages which have exploits.

Also… if you read the reason why most packages need upgraded, it would normally be because a bug had been found and fixed, memory overflow etc.

Nothing to do with virus/trojan/spyware etc etc etc

But

What the Windows fanboys always ignore is this;

Linux exploits are found, source code is available, so exploits are found and patched almost immediately.

Windows exploits are found, source code is not available, so people are vunerable until Microsoft become aware of the exploit and release a patch… This is usually not for months. SP2 has just been released, 3 years after XP, whats the story with that ?

Next time you decide to try and spread some anti-linux fud, research what you are going to say first

2004-09-12 4:56 pm

Anonymous

So is the same for Linux, downloading various ‘free’ programs from who knows where…

Thats why most distros have repositories for their users to download packages from. There are strict guidelines to accepting packages to be uploaded into these repositories. If one uses only the repositories, the chance of having your system’s security comprimised is almost zero.

Yes I’m aware of the Gentoo and Debian incidents last year, but those type of incidents are rare. Of course one should still pay attention to their distro’s news/headlines to make sure their hasn’t been any security violations and the intergrity of the packages is not in question. Also checking the intergrity of the packages(md5sum) is there for a reason. Use it.

2004-09-12 5:07 pm

Anonymous

The ‘Western World’ is the United States LEADER of the FREE world.

LOL. “Free” world? I see little difference between this “Free” world and what happens in other so-called non-Free countries.

By the way, you shold be thanking the USA for saving your sorry butts in WW2……

Now that wasn’t nice. The British held back the Nazi invasion of their country at the Battle of Britain. Please point to where exactly they were saved by the Americans? By the time the U.S. and Germany even squared off in Northern Africa, the Russians were already coming from the eastern front pushing Germany back from their invasion of Russia. Remember that the Allies weren’t just the Americans alone.

We should have let the Germans crush your sorry people and your 3rd world dump country.

If this were to have happened then I’m sure we Americans would be speaking German along with the “3rd World” Brits also huh? Remember America != Allied Forces in WWII.

2004-09-12 5:15 pm

Anonymous

The invasion of Normandia (sp?) took place in may (june?) 44, the last year of the war.

The last year of the war was in 1945. Germany surrendered around late April of 1945. Japan in September of the same year.

Guess what, who the German army surrendered to ? To a russian general, in russian-occupied Berlin…

This was because it was decided by General Eisenhower(Allied Supreme Commander in Europe during WWII) to allow the Russians to bear the brunt of the costs(read casualties, which were huge) of assaulting Berlin. Some Americans & historians dispise Eisenhower for this decision to allow the Russians to take Berlin. Buts thats life…

2004-09-12 6:09 pm

Anonymous

Can we just have a big <PLACEHOLDER> for all remaining conversations (on the entire internet) regarding the completely ignorant stereotyping of Americans that so many self-righteous phony intellectuals like to engage in, and the equally idiotic merkin retort of “We saved your butts in WW2.” or “We’re the greatest nation on earth” or the 8 or 9 other drunken sophomoric things which enter into every stupid debate like it?

This way we can forego this lowbrow, ignorant debate which seems to happen in one out of every two threads on every forum of the internet. God it’s boring to read. The first time this took place it was boring to read.

This is osnews.com. Can we please just talk about technical things? If anyone would really like to get into an argument about how horrible Americans are, and conversely how insanely great and strong and flawless America is, I recommend kuro5hin. And then everyone can feel really good about themselves by bashing another’s homeland in a whirlwind of “enlightened realism” and getting misty about their own, and we can sort of segregate all of that idiocy in one place. And everyone can have the cheap pedestrian thrill of feeling like they’re *right*.

Thank you.

2004-09-12 6:48 pm

Anonymous

Applications dictate operating systems. Wanting to move away from Windows is total impossible for many, and not at all attractive for most.

2004-09-12 11:09 pm

Anonymous

Again with the off topic B/S. If big companys should buy longhorn right away just a couple liecense and test the hell out of it Gartner can shove it.

2004-09-13 7:59 am

Anonymous

If there are half a dozen comments off topic, I shouldn’t have to waste my time sitting around for six minutes to report each.

At the very least include a “comments” field in the report so I can mention that there are many off topic comments in the vicinity to the one I reported.

2004-09-14 12:06 am

Anonymous

I have used Apple before MS had an operating system. If my memory serves me right, they borrowed it from another gentleman when IBM wanted an OS for their new PC.

The GUI was developed by Xerox. Used by Apple and ended up at MS.

I have always thought you buy something–it doesn’t work–you take it back–they fix it–if they don’t, you find someone else who can– Now we all know what happened to ATT–Are we better off?–Do we just put up with it? There were a lot of brave CS developers who sacrificed alot of time and energy to help us get what we have now.–The MS windows OSs (mouse traps) for almost 20 years hasn’t worked very well, isn’t working very well and may never work very well and it always cost to much.

Can anyone or a group of anyones make a better mouse trap that works with all OSs maybe Apple should be looked to as a relable OS producer with smaller OSs and application developers supporting it.

Just a thought–my own opinion–if I error, I ask for better or more correct information. Let’s us hope for better solutions.