CTO of Adeptiva Linux, Stephan February, admitted that consumers find it difficult to use Linux because of the lack of support compared to Windows. “There is no compelling need to shift to Linux today,” he said. Despite the availability of user-friendly graphical user interfaces similar to what Windows-based desktops have, Linux remains a very technical software product with few people outside the technical community are available to support consumer users. My Take: I personally agree with this fellow.
Linux not ready for mass market
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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129 Comments
2004-10-30 6:45 am
Anonymous
Can i hotplug a digicam in Linux
That is one of the things I hope many distros will fix. Overall, my experience with USB hotplugging in linux has been a mixed bag. Some distros have worked pretty well for me (Xandros, Suse 9.0), many don’t work very well (ex. my casio digital camera is usually picked up and mounted as a hard drive, but flash keys won’t detect and automount many times, etc.), and some just plain don’t work (experience and many forum trips have indicated that Suse 9.1’s USB hotplugging functionality is for the most part completely busted, disappointingl, along with a few others). My 7-in-1 media card reader has never worked in any linux distro, save Xandros, and I am bummed because I move data on almost a daily basis. I wonder if it’s just a kernel 2.6.x issue. Anyway, windows handles and automounts my card reader and USB keys and whatever else I usually throw at it USB-wise with aplomb and if linux can get to that kind of hotplug functionality and keep with it, I will most definitely be very pleased.
Til then, keep on keepin’ on
2004-10-30 8:30 am
Anonymous
Quote: “For a non-geek laptop installations remain a disaster. ”
Bull. Libranet GNU/Linux installed just fine for me.
Quote: “I must add though I do enjoy the slight increase in Linux installs in the SOHO market as they represent future sales and installs for me of Windows 98 SE/2000 Pro. ”
You’re installing Win98se for customers? You’re kidding, right? I really hope not. At the end of the year Microsoft won’t be supporting that o/s, Internet Explorer is only being patched for XP versions I believe, i’m really worried.
I certainly wouldn’t let you tell me how to run my systems that’s for sure.
In what way is Win2k ahead of Linux now? Please elaborate instead of making a very broad comment with no proof.
Dave
2004-10-30 8:40 am
Anonymous
Quote: “They all compare negatively with what’s available for wintel or mac.”
Blender is damn powerful, as is the GIMP. I haven’t used cinelerra or scribus, but i’ve heard very good things about scribus (haven’t heard anything on cinelerra in all honesty). You have demonstrated the main problem – people are used to Windows applications, photoshop, whatever it might be. They don’t want to unlearn that application and learn another one. If there’s an application on Linux that mimicks the Windows version application, fine, as long as it has the same menu layout, features etc. God help them if they have to re-learn a new interface.
Dave
2004-10-30 9:02 am
Anonymous
Blender is damn powerful, as is the GIMP. I haven’t used cinelerra or scribus, but i’ve heard very good things about scribus (haven’t heard anything on cinelerra in all honesty). You have demonstrated the main problem – people are used to Windows applications, photoshop, whatever it might be. They don’t want to unlearn that application and learn another one. If there’s an application on Linux that mimicks the Windows version application, fine, as long as it has the same menu layout, features etc. God help them if they have to re-learn a new interface.
You’re assuming that I haven’t used any of the design applications on *nix. I have. I actively seek them out to try to find an excuse to do my design work on that platform. However, up to now I’ve had to put my hand up and candidly say “they aren’t good enough”.
Let’s be honest and accept that the *nix platform isn’t the ideal platform for everything. I use BSD as my web development server, and it’s something that it excels at. I also have zero problem doing coding work on my linux desktop. However, in all honesty, the wintel and mac platforms are way ahead in terms of design applications. That’s the brutal truth.
2004-10-30 10:17 am
Anonymous
Many Linuxers out there repeat the same thing again and again. It is:
“People do not use Linux because thear fear the unknown”.
I’ve read that within the first few comments. I find it interesting that you explain the thinking of people that you have never seen. On the other hand I know them for 5 years now and know that they have their _very reasonable_ arguments for not switching to Linux. No need to repeat these arguments, they’ve been stated often enough.
2004-10-30 10:56 am
Anonymous
As opposed to what? bash, vi and tex?
I don’t comprehend your satire. Those applications you mentioned are actually best of breed applications unlike any you’d see in our GUI broken age. I can happily edit a 50MB file in bash+vim+LaTeX where Openoffice.org, Abiword and Microsoft Office will choke. It took somewhere around 5 minutes for Abiword to open 4MB text file only a few weeks ago, where bash+vim opened the same file under a second.
And there are how many interface/ergonomics engineers working for linux projects today? Much more than at apple or microsoft i should think
When the inteface/ergonomics engineers at Apple and Microsoft enable users move an application windows around via the keyboard, perhaps I’ll begin giving them the respect they deserve. Oh, and this is just broken keyboard navigation. Don’t get me started on cluttered interfaces, needless icons, everything-plus-the-kitchen-sink GUI applications, resource cursed graphics, information overload to mention a few.
If you actually spent time reading and digesting my comment, you’d have followed that I acknowledge the Linux interface leaves much to be desired and that much of the problem stems from copying the broken concepts and practices in other systems especially Windows and Mac.
2004-10-30 1:02 pm
Anonymous
If Linux were ready for desktop you will see Linux on desktop. It is that easy.
Take Mr. Dell. He decided to sell computers through Web. He sold his soul to one OS, which he thought fits the best his business model, got rich and delivered many many computers to home users.
Now, instead of jumping on each other with issues, solutions, workaround, personal stories of success and failure using one or other OS, please tell me this:
If I ask you to run business of selling Linux preinstalled PC on the Web, will you?
If yes- give me URL of your company to see your Linux offerings. Sure you didn’t wait for me, you are bright enough to figure out easy way of making money helping community in the process.
If not- why not?
It is that simple. Linux advocates, please step in front of the line with your answer.
If you are just too busy doing what you are doing to make living- why don’t you want to be rich as Mr. Dell, and help Linux community in the process with your new wealth and Linux popularity on desktop?
Obviously Linux is ready for desktop as far as you concerned, and by selling same hardware $40 (OEM Windows) cheaper than Dell does, with the extra bonus of apparently better OS will propell you to the riches unimaginable.
Are you lazy, not ambitious, or you have doubts? What doubts?
No, seriously. B*tching about some vendor not willing to ship your OS of choice or black helicopters with MS logo flying over your house or dumbness of sheep users not understanding what is good for them- it is not productive.
Figuring out why you, yes, you do not consider running business of selling preinstalled Linux, voicing these reasons, will help Linux overcome them and eventually become widespread desktop OS if it can.
2004-10-30 5:14 pm
Anonymous
About Mr. Dell selling his soul to one OS. Dell did sell Redhat linux as an alternative to Windows preinstalled on their PCs a couple of years ago. Why did they stop? If it was a popular or money making exercise would they not have kept it going?
And for people with a little bit of technical knowledge such as how to install Linux and how to use the command line, they find it impossible to go back to Windows.
“I personally agree with this fellow.”
Moderate me down if you wish, but I’m just glad it’s not up to you.
The arguments presented were facile rationalizations. Most Windows users get support from a friend or family member. Okay, so how does that indicate a lack of “readiness”?
A so-called “technical” person from the BSA couldn’t get his graphics card to work — that’s just sad. Thankfully it’s the kind of thing that only needs to be done once, so I won’t be hearing from cousin Bob about that one again!
Then he goes on to repeat the whole “piracy” nonsense argument again. What a waste of bandwidth!
I have to admit that some of the things mentioned seemed to be correct.
However, the one thing I remember about Windows adoption is that widespread adoption came due to Windows being pre-installed on commercial PC’s, not clone systems put together by the tech crowd.
So as far as hardware issues and support go, when the PC manufacturers start releasing more PC’s with Linux, your support will also increase for the non-tech crowd.
Part of more adoption of Linux desktop-wise will come the same way it did for Microsoft: Use a PC for business, and at home, to be consistent, use the same thing at home.
As more businesses turn to Linux, more employees may decide to change home systems or purchase home systems with Linux.
Also, whether perceived or real (depending on your take of this) security concerns, virus issues, and malware may move some over to the Linux platform.
Not much of an article but anyways…
The CTO mentions that there is “There is no compelling need to shift to Linux today.” Well, that may be true that Linux isn’t the compelling element, but what is going on is companies scrambling to find cost cutting techniques so they don’t have to continue letting employees go. One way for the emphatic executive team to do that is to lessen dependance on expensive proprietary technologies and that’s where Linux can make an entrance.
All they need is a few in-house admins who aren’t afraid to learn and the TCO should be well under control.
foo
“Linux Stephan February admitted that consumers find it difficult to use Linux because of the lack of support compared to Windows. “There is no compelling need to shift to Linux today,” he said.”
There is no definition in this article with respect to support.
“Despite the availability of user-friendly graphical user interfaces similar to what Windows-based desktops have, Linux remains a very technical software product with few people outside the technical community are available to support consumer users.”
Yes, it is technical and so is windows. How many users edit the registry? Now there are a few distros out there that try really hard and have a good deal of success using their own GUI tool’s to hide the users from the terminal.
“February said most Windows users rely on relatives and friends for help whenever something goes wrong with their computers. This type of support network is not yet present for the Linux community. Even though there are numerous discussion boards on the Internet whose members can readily help, most consumers still feel uncomfortable with that kind of support model, he said.”
This is the lack of techincal support… Because people are not use to it; then we should say “lack of support compared to Windows”. Is this interesting or what:
“Goh explained that even with his technical background, he could not set up his Linux installation properly to work with his computer’s graphics card.”
And what is his exact background. Was the card support by either xfree86 or xorg? Did he even check out the HCL lists?
“Even with the apparent success in some countries of vendors selling lower-cost desktop computers installed with Linux operating software, Goh remains unimpressed. “People are buying these Linux desktops and replacing it with pirated Windows OS,” he said.”
Survey: And how was this survey taken? Excuse me sir, have you purchased a low cost linux pc and pirated windowns to put on that PC?
Thief: Why yes I did.
There are no facts in this article.
why not with a spoon, it will hurt more
“…difficult to use Linux because of the lack of support compared to Windows”
there is no really big need for support on Windows, 99,9% works pretty much out-of-the-box. most problem is with the applications themselves.
Linux is still more of an adventure for the technically interested than for the average user who wants to get stuff done without searching forums, posting bugreports and updating libs and packs with mile long version numbers or watching out for dependency problems for every app you install. then there is all those friggin distributions on top of that that all got diff problems,solutions and standards.
“People with lesser technical know-how will certainly feel lost if they encounter a problem with their Linux computers, he said.”
Last time I checked the EXACT same problem happens for lesser technically adept windows users when something goes wrong…just ask anyone who’s ever worked in a windows based corporate helpdesk about the stupid ass questions they get asked…
Can you just put all your comments in on one post, so we can be done with you. Stop writing 3 words in each post. You’ve been doing this for I don’t know how long now.
My mother finds using her mobile phone intimidatingly difficult , and tasks just a bit more complicated than answering a call forces her to rely on my support (as she finds me to be technical person). Is it her particular inability to comprehend techology to blame? I don’t think so – she was smart enough to use landline phones for years quite efficiently. Thus I have to conclude: Mobile phones are not ready for mass market. 🙂
Just my 2c.
Linux is gaining ground with companies but Windows will continue to dominate consumer PCs in the near future.
Consumer PCs? Yes, I don’t think there’s any doubt about that. Linux still has some work to be able to do what Windows does in that regard, but then again, there’s very few PCs pre-installed with Linux.
IDC analyst Rajnish Arora said the majority of the companies were actually migrating to a Windows-based server
Were they really? :
In the study, 14 percent of companies said they were replacing their Windows servers, 18 percent their Unix servers, and some 42 percent were taking out Netware.
I broadly agree with what they’re talking about in terms of consumer PCs, but the undertone of the article and the report is that they’re desperately trying to turn these into reasons not to use Linux, open source (and even non-Microsoft software of any description) in businesses or as servers.
It’s a psychological thing, and I see it every day. The fear of using something different that works better and costs less, that people don’t know about and don’t have skills in scares the living daylights out of IT people who have mentally tied themselves to Windows. Even if you mention not spending money on SQL Server internally for development purposes, and running MySQL or PostgreSQL on Windows (OK, people still use Windows but maybe not Microsoft everywhere) instead you get babbling, incoherent and unjustifiable responses of businesses being tied to Microsoft software which is quite clearly not the case with things like a database server.
I know of one company who is looking at producing a mission critical financial system based on .Net and Enterprise Services purely because Microsoft produces it. .Net is totally unproven, especially as a services/application server infrastructure (and is still in heavy development!) and Microsoft’s track record with things like MTS is so woeful it’s unreal. To make matters worse, they have a client with a very successful J2EE implementation that’s staring them in the face, works and can handle the load but they won’t use it themselves because Microsoft don’t produce it. I will be watching with amusement as they produce the Enterprise Services part of their infrastructure and it sinks like a rock.
That’s a bridge Linux and open source software has to cross, but crossing it they are. There are no tangible arguments that people can come up with as to why you shouldn’t use it in many scenarios, and consumer PCs is really the last domino
.
my latest slack install went something like:
1. download and install zipslack
2. install wvdial, swaret, config them
3. install tons of packages via swaret
4. fix things, configure sound, configure Ion WM
5. install gcc, compile a few things from source
sorry but the average windows user is not going to go through all that. you can alleviate some pain by choosing Ubuntu/SuSE and friends, but still some tinkering is required. even SuSE 8.x didn’t set up my X correctly on both desktops and laptops (9.x is probably better though). setting up a dual boot often requires an expensive parition program, specific distro with resizer, or tinkering with “manual” resizers. linux on an extra machine is often best, which would require buying CD’s and/or Nero, and a machine with decent specs like 500 mhz + 256 meg ram (i.e. $50 to $100), supported DSL/cable/56k, etc. it’s still a bit of a monetary and/or time commitment.
i’ve used unix (later linux/bsd) since ’92 and i still think it’s more of geek toy and corporate/school workstation than home desktop. i still install (and recommend) Windows for clients/friends/family.
Goh Seow Hiong, director for software policy of the Business Software Alliance – which has close ties with Microsoft – agreed that most consumers are not yet ready for Linux. Goh explained that even with his technical background, he could not set up his Linux installation properly to work with his computer’s graphics card. People with lesser technical know-how will certainly feel lost if they encounter a problem with their Linux computers, he said.
Hehe, yeah I’m sure this guy has a real “technical” background if he can’t setup his video card in linux. I guess when he says “technical” he means he has the ability to click on control panel.
It’s interesting to see the CTO of a linux company admit that there’s no compelling reason for most home users to switch from Windows. I wonder how many death threats he’ll get from deranged fanboys. Maybe it’s time for a sesssion in a cambodian-style RMS re-education camp
We can’t have group-think dissent, can we?
why not with a spoon, it will hurt more
That has got to be one of my favorite lines in any movie.
Fact is, most Linux distributions are easier to install than Windows is, it’s easier to install applications in Linux and more secure. The *only* thing needed by the mass media that most Linux distributions cannot do right now out is due to overt obstruction on the part of software publishers (patented media format) and hardware makers (binary only drivers, hiding specs). These need to be managed with a certain degree of technical know-how, but not much more than required to deal with the windows BS.
My mother, perhaps the least technical person on the planet, is a happy Linux user thanks to my support. If you aren’t as technically adept as my mother, you ought to question if you should be using a computer at all.
Heh, Alan Rickman can sure pull off the smarmy bad-guy.
I also thought that he was one of the best things in Dogma.
Linux is basically a cool OS, but it still has a long way to go. Here are my two cents worth:
** Linux must get out of the dependency hell. It’s not quite as bad as Window’s DLL hell, but close. Apple does it right with Mac OS X: Unpack an app, drag it to the application folder and hey, it is installed. Drag it to the trash, and it is uninstalled. I know there are companies that do not play by these rules and make trashy installers, but these will all be shipped to Siberia when Apple takes over the world…
** Linux must get better hardware support. It needs killer apps, which encourage companies to deliver drivers.
** Linux needs a less “geeky” fan community if it ever wants to get out into the mainstream. More helpful, down to earth guys who have some patience with freshly-hatched penguins instead of armies of slashdot trolls. Sure, there are nice Linux guys (one of them got me into Linux), but there are too many who do not play nice with newbies.
** The Linux community must port apps to Windows as “trojan horses” to get the windows crowd interested in Linux. Steve Jobs did this with the iPod and iTunes. The Windows guys who never even dreamed about going to an apple dealer did just that to pick up an iPod, and many bought macs as well. Linux PDAs and smartphnoes might do the trick.
** Linux must go for the governments. Uncle Sam is always looking for ways to reduce cost, and Microsofts pricey upgrade plans (not to mention the security cost) create lots of opportunity for Linux. Get into e-Government schemes, ask the civil service what they hate about MS products, and make a better app.
There is no difference between windows and linux for the average and computer illitarate. If someone is lost in linux they also lost in Windows. Most average users are using Word or a Spreadsheet or a Mail program and Internet. Just point and click a Go !!! Same as in windows.
One problem, as noted in the article, is the that windows users can easly ask a friend. This is easear for windows because there are more windows users. This is not a problem that something is wrong with linux. Also I think most average users switch because of someone they know and can support them.
One advantage of Linux over windows is software management. Something like fedore.us and Synaptic is beatifull. Much better than what windows has. One program and repository for getting and maintaining ALL programs. This is only possible with free and free as in beer pograms.
I feel sorry for Windows users. I remember way back when I was forced to use Windows because it came with my computer. That was a terrible time. I remember not wanting to be on the Internet because Windows was so virus ridden. The people are really getting a poor deal with Windows.
I just hope that people don’t turn Linux into crap.
1.) Dependency hell has been solved. The only way to make it go away completely is to destroy all that is shared libraries and waste memory and hard disk space by reinstalling deps local to programs. A stupid idea.
Actually, dependency hell never existed. Dependency hell is caused by badly done packages that tend to play against some quirks in RPM. Bad packages cross platforms, you see it a lot in Windows uninstallers.
2.) Linux supports far more hardware than Windows. Windows works on, alpha (only NT 4), itanium, x86, and beta x86-64. The list for linux is outdone only by netbsd.
3.) Wanna see non-geek linux users? justlinux.com; you’ll find plenty of newbs with small interest in being “geeks.” You might also look to work environments, researchers and other places where people need more power from their environment and they found linux as a way to get it at cost of administration. (Plus it’s familiarish to Unix lovers)
4.) A large number of apps get ported. Such as gaim, xchat (where they charge for windows builds), mozilla, etc.
5.) The NSA maintains it’s own linux security patches. Good enough?
Ok, now you must switch, because we met all your requirements.
“my latest slack install went something like: ”
..steps listed..
“sorry but the average windows user is not going to go through all that. ”
Sorry, but the average Windows user couldn’t install windows from Scratch either. Why does this apples and oranges argument keep coming up?
My wife wouldn’t be able to make heads of tails of the Windows installation process, but after about 30 minutes of instruction she is using the Linux box I set up for her with no problems.
>Hehe, yeah I’m sure this guy has a real “technical” >background if he can’t setup his video card in linux. I >guess when he says “technical” he means he has the ability >to click on control panel.
http://www.oecd.org/document/3/0,2340,en_2649_37409_1893763_1_1_1_3…
——————————
Goh Seow Hiong
Seow Hiong has both a technical and legal background. He received his Bachelor’s Degree with Honours in Computer Science from the University of California at Berkeley, and his Master’s Degree in Computer Science from Stanford University. His computer science qualifications were undertaken under the auspices of the National Computer Board Scholarship. He also has a Bachelor’s Degree with Honours in Law from the University of London, and a Postgraduate Diploma in Singapore Law with Merit from the National University of Singapore.
——————————
Know who you are talking about before making such a comment.
My biggest problem with DesktopLinux is that it never feels like a complete, finished product. Individually, the applications are of no lesser quality than Windows/OS X counterparts, but when put together, you just see the ductape all over the place.
DesktopLinux will never truly take off untill ductape is no longer needed. But that will never happen. A complete Linux distribution consists of the packages of various groups who all have different preferences, licences, ideologies, and most importantly, different goals. That adds up to four possible points of disagreement and misalignement.
Those distributions that do seem to try to solve this problem (Linspire, Xandros, Lycoris) are being ‘expelled’ (so to speak) by the Linux community; because they limit choice and are to be paid for! Yet, when someone points out the problems with Linux, those exact same people say: “Not true, get Xandros or whatever.”
It just shows how divided the Linux community is. These sorts of matters made me stop using Linux. Which is too bad; I really liked both KDE and Gnome, and especially XFce. But oh well, my iMac and BeOS/QNX will do.
First of all. I setup LinSpire so it doesn’t run as root. So enough of that BS from people.
I’ve been switching my friends over to LinSpire. Each of them adamantly were against it in the beginning. But I was sick of fixing their Windows machines.
Yes I installed LinSpire for them. But they were right beside me and they agreed that it was so easy that they could have done it. I would have had them do it but they wanted Windows. I told them if I install anything it will be LinSpire. If they wanted Windows they were on their own or they could pay someone else to fix their machines.
Note that I paid for the 1st year of LinSpire on MY credit card. Each were surprised that I not only would do this but insisted on it (time saved = money earned – basically I was ahead from the beginning).
By the way, I gave up on all my PCs and switched totally to Macs.
After the less than 15 minutes it took to initially setup LinSpire on their computer I showed them how to go into the software warehouse and find additional programs they wanted to use like OpenOffice and also showed them they had the option to purchase the full StarOffice for $29. And I showed them in OpenOffice how easy it is to open up Word documents.
Anyway. In the following months I’ve RARELY had to help them over the phone or in person with their LinSpire’d computers. Easily a 95% drop in “tech support” calls to me. And surprisingly enough they are actually doing MORE with their computers now than before. Mainly because now they don’t have to go out and buy other programs since most of the programs in LinSpire’s software warehouse is covered by the $50 yearly access fee. Note that none of the software stops working if you don’t renew. And also, updates to the OS are covered by the yearly fee.
So … LinSpire is definitely easier to use than Windows for my friends.
You guys just dont get it do you? You have been singing the same song for more than 10 years and you still haven’t figured out that it isn’t about price or logic.
It is about psychology and ease of use.
Think about it. What was the main reason why Microsoft was able to topple Netware the way it did? The software needed to run a windows network was now availible on a familiar and relatively easy to use platform for most goals. No one had to learn the netware command line. No one had to have a decent command of networking concepts, and most importantly all this is contained in a familar platform that works just how they remember it. It really had nothing to do with the advantages of AD/NT over NDS/eDirectory; infact there were none, which underscores my point.
People do not want to migrate from the solution that they are familiar with. Even when they risk to loss more financialy because of that choice; to them it is worth it.
People want things the easy way. Now please dont take this as a shot at present MSCEs. They are responsible for and have to be competent in order to pass those 7 tests and have to be able to prove it in the workplace(At least the ones I work with).
read the article completly.
Its so easy to get an idea what adaptiva like to achieve.
Where is the money today for a distro ? the mass market ? No, its the business market. They should consider the use of linux (thats what he said).
If you take into account, that producing a distro for the different needs of the mass market, set up an support department for these type of customers, and get this in to an income ratio, you will come close to the same goal. Forget the mass market, get in to land where the money is.
Its clearly defined what they need. No risk.
Remember, some distros are commercial.
Thats the way for adaptiva.
Other distros are not denieing the importance of the mass market, like xandros, mandrake, novell/SuSE, a/s/o.
So come on, linux is ready for prime-time, its ready for mass market. Possibly Mr. CTO of Adeptiva Linux, Stephan February, is not ready for the mass market.
cheers frank
I think this article, in the market sense, is correct.
Linux zealots will instantly call this fuff, a Microsoft conspiracy, marketing directed to the “stupid consumers” to brainwash them, etc.
I have used several distros over a period of 6 years or so, Redhat, SuSE, Mandrake, and now, and finally, Gentoo. Though the first few I mentioned are *very* easy to install and use, IF everything is working correctly (hardware detected, properly auto-configured), but rarely does a n00bie distro install perfectly and needs no further configuration. This would instantly turn off most non-technical consumers immediately and would drive them back into the arms of Microsoft, perhaps permanently!
I think hard-core zealots overestimate what consumers are willing to pay for and use.
I have installed and configured Gentoo boxes for my wife, mother, and other friends & family members and they’re actually quite happy with them and have had few, if any problems. The only complaints that I hear are that Open Office is still very slow and not as attractive/user-friendly as MS Office.
They never would have known about Gentoo or Linux at all if I hadn’t done all of the leg-work for them. In the market, Linux is still perceived as very technical and not a solid, user-friendly product.
This is slowly changing, of course, but true nonetheless.
Once, and it’s only a matter of when, we see mass adoption by hardware vendors and pc manufacturers will we see the market share begin to shift at a faster pace.
When consumers can go to Dell, Gateway, etc. and see a dropdown box to choose a Linux distro in the place of Windows, and perhaps see a cost savings, things might start to change more rapidly.
I also think most consumers and critics over-emphasize “support” and what Microsoft defines as “support” and how available it really is.
Personally, this Linux user thinks it’ll take a few more years before people are even aware, en masse, what Linux is and how it can be useful or even better for them, than Windows or other MS products compared to the open-source alternatives.
Meanwhile, I guess I don’t understand the rush to push people into desktop linux. This is something the market will decide (vendors, support technicians, pc manufacturers, consumers, etc.) and it should not be a forced issue.
I suspect at least *some* of the anxiety for this push is driven by zealotry and the bizarre hatred of Microsoft that many in the open source “community” hold.
Give it time, Microsoft’s market share is a pretty huge mountain to chip away at and it won’t happen overnight…it won’t even happen in the next few years…but if things keep up (perceived buggy and insecure MS software, delayed Windows releases, the growth of desktop-centric Linux distros, etc.) – it will happen, I’m sure.
In a strange way, I’m glad there isn’t mass market adoption just yet, Linux still seems sexy and mysterious to the non-initiated and it makes me look like a stud
[Windows Story] Network Problem
A few years ago I had some net problems – I could not share/download/upload ANYthing [ as i found out later after googling the internet for hours it was a REGEDIT’IT’YOURSELF quick fix problem… also i couldn’t fond anything on micro$oft dot com ]But before that I asked some ppl on our local chat and on IRC #windows. The Answers:
1.Reinstall windows
2.Use System Restore
3.You have viruses
4.I don’t know what are you talking about, everything is working here.
Now THIS is support ?
[Linux Story] CD-RW not working
A few years ago, when i was still using SuSE 7.1 i cound not setup my CD-RW.
Local Chat: load module ide-scsi – the i did not know how to load one :]
IRC #linux edit lilo.conf add append “ide-scsi”
http://www.suse.com – same thing as iRC
“Linux still seems sexy and mysterious to the non-initiated and it makes me look like a stud
”
That is hilarious, because it is just funny and that in reality, it is the reason many people have to mention ” I use Linux….”
So this guy has a degree in computer science, but can’t setup a video card in Linux? I’m assuming the video card is supported…probably some kind of ATI or Nvidia. So either the guy is lying or incompetent. Take your pick.
Or maybe it just wouldnt work? You left that option out.
I don’t agree. I think Linux is ready for the desktop. People however generally aren’t. I don’t blame them; a computer is a difficult thing to work with. Most people even don’t understand MS Windows, despite that that seems to be the benchmark for ease of use.
What is true is that for home use, there is a lack of “handy cousins” who’ll help you when you crash your system once again. But that will grow. On the business side, I don’t see a problem. Plenty of support, both from distributers and other companies.
In a test I read about some time ago, it turned out that KDE and Windows XP were basically as easy to use. So in that respect, there is no need to worry. All that needs to happen now is gaining momentum and showing people that Linux today isn’t so difficult. Especially when hardware vendors increase their support.
My mother, perhaps the least technical person on the planet, is a happy Linux user thanks to my support.
Hey! That title belongs to my mom and dad! 😀
But I have to agree to the rest of the sentence:
If you aren’t as technically adept as my mother, you ought to question if you should be using a computer at all.
1.) …Actually, dependency hell never existed. Dependency hell is caused by badly done packages that tend to play against some quirks in RPM. Bad packages cross platforms, you see it a lot in Windows uninstallers.
Sorry, Chris, but a good install/uninstall system must do this right, and make it easy to produce good packages. Comparing this to Windows does not help – we are trying to get people away from this kind of trash quality.
2.) Linux supports far more hardware than Windows. Windows works on, alpha (only NT 4), itanium, x86, and beta x86-64. The list for linux is outdone only by netbsd.
True, but this does not mean much to Joe Sixpack, who wants this camera, printer, scanner and USB stick to work on Linux.
3.) Wanna see non-geek linux users? justlinux.com; you’ll find plenty of newbs with small interest in being “geeks.” You might also look to work environments, researchers and other places where people need more power from their environment and they found linux as a way to get it at cost of administration. (Plus it’s familiarish to Unix lovers)
Like I said: There are many good people – just not enough.
4.) A large number of apps get ported. Such as gaim, xchat (where they charge for windows builds), mozilla, etc.
Mozilla is OSS, but not a port from Linux. Re-read my post. You need something that brings people to Linux and tells tham Linux is cool, just like iPod and iTunes told people that apple makes cool stuff.
5.) The NSA maintains it’s own linux security patches. Good enough?
No. Who cares about the NSA? You need to win over thousands of civil servants who feel neglected by MS because Gates & Ballmer do not address their everyday computer woes – crashy programs, software that is not suitable for big governmental organisations, lousy security, and so on.
There are several distros oriented towards the technically inept. I’ve tried several and found them to be adequate and I particularly liked Xandros but, if you’re inclined to heavily customize your system, I find these distros limiting.
As for hardware setup, if you buy a PC with Linux pre-installed, say, from Walmart, I’m sure the video card works.
Perhaps if the nice fellow from the BS alliance would try a distro more recent than say, Redhat 5.2, he’d be less frustrated.
My Toshiba Satellite Pro 4270 XDVD has a Savage MX/IX video card which proved troublesome under BOTH XP and Mandrake.
It would freeze the GUI randomly for both OSes forcing me to reset the laptop.
Under XP, I was forced to try surfing the web to find a driver update that might fix it, but it kept freezing so I installed Linux instead – only to have the same problem.
Here’s how I resolved the problem – brought up Mandrake in CLI mode, did man -k savage, found there was a known problem
with the particular video card that affects a small percentage of users (~5%), added the single line of text necessary to the configuration file and BAM!!, problem solved.
I then downloaded the driver update from s3graphics.com using Linux so I could fix XP. Had the Mandrake team erred on the side of caution and added the Option Shadowstatus on
fix as a default, I would been blissfully ignorant.
Without an alternative to XP, I would have needed to use someone else’s help to download a fix.
I realize that this doesn’t pass the Grandma test but, generally speaking, hardware problems never do. At least, one could talk Grandma through the Linux fix whereas the XP one would be a case of “What’s for dinner? I’ll be right over.”
is right next to an article talking about how the Australians are switching to linux as there desktop machines..
There are several distros oriented towards the technically inept. I’ve tried several and found them to be adequate and I particularly liked Xandros but, if you’re inclined to heavily customize your system, I find these distros limiting.
I agree. Xandros and the like seem to be more than capable of fulfilling many converts’ needs with a lot more ease than say, Debian, Slack, etc, albeit with a lot less flexibility. Many windows users are already accustomed to that though, so it seems fitting. At first I was a bit frustrated with linux and it’s sometimes picky hardware support, but it is looking brighter and brighter every day in that respect with more and more companies jumping on board and releasing drivers.
With their more or less enterprise approach, distros like Xandros and their overall ease of use are IMHO the best means to which linux can reach out to the less technically inclined. I believe keeping them alive and well may be our best hope for mass market.
Just my 2 cents.
Linux must get out of the dependency hell. It’s not quite as bad as Window’s DLL hell, but close. Apple does it right with Mac OS X: Unpack an app, drag it to the application folder and hey, it is installed.
That’s because Mac OS has basically no market share now, and is not used as a development platform in the same way as Windows and Linux. You can put everything in one folder, but when you start building systems that depend on one another things get far more complex.
Linux must get better hardware support. It needs killer apps, which encourage companies to deliver drivers.
It has them. However, no one has yet identified what they are and how to integrate them as a whole
.
The Linux community must port apps to Windows as “trojan horses” to get the windows crowd interested in Linux.
Nope. Linux needs cool, integrated applications provided in a way Windows cannot do.
Steve Jobs did this with the iPod and iTunes. The Windows guys who never even dreamed about going to an apple dealer did just that to pick up an iPod, and many bought macs as well.
The iPod was the future, and because of that Steve Jobs didn’t have a choice.
Linux must go for the governments. Uncle Sam is always looking for ways to reduce cost, and Microsofts pricey upgrade plans (not to mention the security cost) create lots of opportunity for Linux. Get into e-Government schemes, ask the civil service what they hate about MS products, and make a better app.
I think Novell/Suse and Red Hat should employ you. Certainly with Novell, heaven knows they need that kind of attitude, drive and intelligent thinking.
Your headline is a misrepresentation of the point of view expressed in the article. “There is no compelling need to shift to Linux today” is in no way an equivalent statement to “Linux is not ready for use today”. There is no compelling need for someone who has a shiny new Mercedes to buy a shiny new BMW instead; does this mean the BMW is not “ready for use”?
Depends on your mass market target.If you target the business market en masse why not?
So, you’re comparing Linux a Mercedes or BMW with Linux? Not only is the analogy wrong, the whole car analogies that everybody uses is getting stale.
Scratch what I just said. You didn’t compare a Mercedes or BMW to linux. I’ll go back to my remedial reading course now.
Linux is good but i think there are a few things that need to be changed.
1: Just copy the OS X method of installing and deinstalling packages. It’s the best and most easy way.
Try uninstalling an application with Linux without help of tools. It put’s installed applications in /usr/share/bin, the documentation in yet another directory and 10 other directories. Use one directory so a user can easily delete an application.
2: Instead of making 1000000 different distro’s and developing the same stuff over again, work together and make one main thing. This is why i prefer freebsd over Linux, just because there are less versions. And because there are less versions, it’s easy to find a solution if you have a problem cause there are more then 100 people that use the same version as you and probably had the same problem.
3: like Thom Holwerda said, some things feel like ducttape. One application uses GTK, second application uses GTK2, other one uses QT, another one uses Python etc. etc. and they all look and feel different. Open Office tries to do it’s best again to look exactly the same as Microsoft Office including the look. All these different layout’s on one operating system looks unprofessional and confusing. With OS X most toolkits have the same look. This improves users to get familiar with an interface.
I switched to Linux for reasons that have been posted here many times. I stayed with Linux for one simple reason: Maintenance.
Keeping a Debian based system up to date is easy, and takes very little time. In addition there is no need for spyware program updates, anti-virus updates, or any of the things that can drive Windows users to distraction. The JPEG flaw in GDI+ is just the latest in an entire series maddening security issues that are difficult to fix, even if patches are available.
So, to those who complain about endless packages with long numbers, dependency hell, and too much duct tape, I’ll say you haven’t played with a distribution with a good package management system.
As for me, I am tired of supporting Windows computers that get infected, that slow down mysteriously, that constantly show up with mystery background applications that weren’t there the last time I checked the machine (“I didn’t do anything, I swear…”). Give me “apt-get,” or give me… whatever.
I think you bring up a good point. The whole “linux is ready for the desktop” is not equivalent to “is there a compelling reason to move to Linux”.
Because of it’s lack of stability, and the fact that it requires a computer security expert to actually use a Windows machine connected to the internet -safely-.
Windows has not made it easy enough to install or remove third party software for the average Harry Homeowner to deal with, not to mention a re-install. It took me 2 hours to install XP last time I tried. (Compare this to about 3 minutes on the same machine for Damn Small Linux! I talked my 10 year old daughter through that one). First time I saw Windows 95 I expected a breakthrough for Mac; a platform that in my opinion was and now even more so is definitely ready for the mass market.
riiiight. slack.
my mandrake install on my new HTPC went like this:
boot system. partition disk. agree to everything. select packages. walk through gfx and network configuration agreeing to everything. finish.
i could’ve skipped my custom partitioning and package selection and had a perfectly working system.
booting Move or Knoppix on either of the PCs in my house goes like this:
put in CD. reboot. hit enter. for Move, type in “bob” four times (passwords).
that gets me a system with working graphics (3D accelerated for Move), working sound, and a working internet connection.
it’s hardly rocket science.
1: Just copy the OS X method of installing and deinstalling packages. It’s the best and most easy way.
Try uninstalling an application with Linux without help of tools. It put’s installed applications in /usr/share/bin, the documentation in yet another directory and 10 other directories. Use one directory so a user can easily delete an application.
Yeah, I hate that. For example, last night I wanted to compile gtksourcview. So I needed to apt-get some dependencies, but ended up getting an older version of gnome-vfs-dev, and all of it’s gtk1.x and gnome 1.x dependencies. My hardrive space is actually at a premium, and now I have to find a tool to basically figure out all this gtk1.x and gnome 1.x stuff that is on my system that I don’t need.
I think there is a tool that will do it, but I forget the name. Anyone remember what it is?
“Think about it. What was the main reason why Microsoft was able to topple Netware the way it did?”
because it was several hundred per cent cheaper.
1: Just copy the OS X method of installing and deinstalling packages. It’s the best and most easy way.
Try uninstalling an application with Linux without help of tools.
You have to perform a (de)install in terminal or does osx
use tools too?
To have to admit to being unable to configure a video card,
when he has such impressive academic credentials?
Let’s consider the possible scenarios:
1.) Card not supported
Okay, not as likely as it once was but still within the realm of possibility.
While I don’t change distros as frequently as I used to, I’m hard pressed to think of a mainstream distro that couldn’t handle X-configuration.
Also, if there was no specific driver, did he try using the generic SVGA? This is pretty much the same scenario that occurs in Windows when the right driver can’t be found.
2.) Card defective
Okay, but it wouldn’t work in Windows either so linux isn’t to blame.
3.) Card works in Windows but not detected in Linux
Again, possible but, after 8 years and over 30 different machines, ranging from 486DX-33 to an Athlon XP 3000+ ( brands of videocards: S3, ATI, NVIDIA, Diamond, Matrox,Intel and others, including onboard video), I have NEVER, I repeat NEVER, seen this happen.
4.) PEBKAC – most likely scenario. I have to ask, that assuming he wasn’t outright lying, what distro was he using and what video card?
I found a photo of Goh Seow Hiong and he looks to be in his forties. So, he must have done his share of work using the command line. I fail to see how he could be baffled by a simple video card configuration on just about ANY recent distro.
Considering that he works for the BSA, I detect a strong whiff of Redmond-inspired FUD.
It’s not a new point, actually, I wouldn’t want to claim credit for it. Just thought it needed restating, given the mistake made in the headline.
What the consumer market needs is something that you or I would not call a “Desktop Computer” (whatever we mean by that . . .)
The typical consumer wants something that “Just Works” Should be (virtually) unable to get a virus of any sort. Should be able to plug in a known (tested) USB based camera/printer/scanner/foobar and it should Just Work, no install CDs, no downloads, not one clicking “Next”. Given the current price point of computing even upgrading the video card should be considered as plausible as upgrading the read lazer in your DVD player. The end user should not even need to know how to obtain access to the root account. The OS should update its self even with out intervention. Heck, many computer users are scared to even install software on Windows. Applications should not even be “installed” they should be resources on the network like a web page.
THIS CAN BE DONE TODAY. All the pieces are out there they just need to be assembled. Linux is the logical choice for such a system. Properly configured (preinstalled) Linux has been shown to be able to run for YEARS with out a glitch. Technologies like Zero-Install and Java Web Start mean that vast libraries of applications without dependency issues or even a single click “Next”. A suitable library of applications exists (Please, OH PLEASE, don’t give me that lame “All users want Photo(SNOB)Shop” reply). The hardware support exists (but I suspect that an Official Online Store should exist that can guaranty the “Just Works” promise) And once momentum (perhaps sponsored by ISPs to penetrate the market that has been waiting for a the appliance computer without all the hassle of the current “Desktop” computing model) increased support from the hardware/software industry will follow . . .
“because it was several hundred per cent cheaper.”
No, that wasnt the driving force behind migration at all.
If that where true, then you would be seeing mass migrations back to netware or linux, but you dont see that do you? Why? Because you are wrong.
I know it’s a bit of topic but amazing how convenient AddBlock
can be at times reading some articles.
I’ve used Linux for about 10 years so I feel I can comment on it. IMHO this ready for mass market use thing is garbage. People who use and love Linux are prepared to not look at it’s faults and they hit “Report abuse’ if you bring them up. For Linux to be adopted in the mainstream it needs a couple of things 1) it needs a REAL office app, and don’t bring up OOo it’s slow and can’t compare to Microsoft Office at all, 2) it needs games – now I know there are a few (and I use the word lightly) games on Linux, but it needs more, now bring up how I can use tools in Linux to run Windows games. Don’t you see the irony in that?
Linux has the desktop GNOME and KDE are great, not as polished as Windows, and now where as polished as OS X but hey do the job. Now it just needs the apps to actually run on these desktops.
After 10 years of using the OS I finally came to the conclusion that the world does need closed source software. You need to be able to pay for an app like Microsoft Office, or Adobe Photoshop if you need it. Now for day to day use you can use things like OOo and The Gimp but they really aren’t what the professionals need. Maybe with time they will be, but I kind of doubt it.
My personal experience with Linux on the desktop was great, but late last year I decided to look at OS X and I have to say I’m sold. It most of the open source apps from Linux/BSD, it has the commercial apps, and it also has the games. It’s the best of both worlds and until Linux has these it isn’t really much more than a geeky desktop.
Now feel free to flame me and press “Report abuse” as you always do when people bring these things up.
mmm… early morning typos. Please excuse them!
The article may not have been very ‘direct’, but I think if you read it with reason, you get the following key points.
1. There is no real reason to switch to Linux. By in large both windows and linux are about the same, giving and taking in one area or the other.
2. This is the key point, which strangely enough, was not stressed enough I think. When I first started reading the article, I thought the ‘support’ being talked about was corporate level support. Its only when you get deeper into the article that you realize the kind of ‘support’ being talked about is actually peer-peer or friend support. This is where linux is truly lacking. Online help is just not that same as calling your tech friend and having him fix everything (spyware and all).
There’s nothing really to be offeneded about in this article. It’s really not saying anything bad about linux. It’s simply stating reality in terms of people’s saviness of Linux. Isn’t it a no-brainer that a less conusmer used OS would have less peer-peer support than a more popular one…duh. It encourages business to explore linux…which in turn will lead to more peer-peer support…and thus…there will be nothing to complain about in terms of support.
>>1: Just copy the OS X method of installing and deinstalling packages. It’s the best and most easy way.
>>Try uninstalling an application with Linux without help of tools.
>>You have to perform a (de)install in terminal or does osx
>>use tools too?
You drag the app to the trash, it’s uninstalled.
You are right Linux may need this or that, but to the consumer market it really doesn’t matter. Unix and Linux was designed to be a multi user system designed to handle hundreds or thousands of users administrated by a trained sysadmin.
It doesn’t matter how much better GUI we get, how many strange hardware items Linux gets drivers for,.. it will still be more complicated than e.g. win98 that was designed to be used as a personal OS. Linux is a good OS. The problem is, that it is good at things the home user doesn’t need.
But as modern windows suffers from the same enterprise readyness sickness, and is equally complicated, Linux may still have a chance at the desktop of future home users and it will probaly end up at home as a result of Linux adoptation at work, just like the PC migrated from the work place to the homes.
2.) Linux supports far more hardware than Windows. Windows works on, alpha (only NT 4), itanium, x86, and beta x86-64. The list for linux is outdone only by netbsd.
i daresay linux has been “effectively” ported to as many platforms as netbsd. several platforms (for netbsd) are not usable except by developers or coders. openbsd and debian have both been ported to several architectures.
windows does support more x86 machines (AFAIK).
I think I need to join Lumbergh in that remedial reading class – I just noticed the headline you used is just the one the original site gave to the story. Sorry.
It’s perfectly simple to do that on Linux – or, heck, on Windows; compile the app statically and tar (or zip) it up. Uncompress it, it’s installed! Wipe the directory, it’s uninstalled! Done. Early versions of Firefox were distributed like this, as are several commercial Linux programs. It’s hardly an elegant solution and it’s certainly not one that scales well to a complete operating system, which is why we have dynamic linking and package management systems.
Of course there isn’t a substitute for Windows. Windows is more than an OS. It’s a host to several applications that only run on Windows. The problem is that Windows is an easy target for malware and virusware. The technical people will switch eventually to alternatives to save the headaches, but Windows will remain the host of games and instant messaging, for example. People want to run the attaches, though it’s risky most of the time. With the increase of the maintenance cost of Windows and increase of the expertise of most people, then the alternatives may gain enough mindshare.
I’ve heard this argument before. And sorry, but they’re wrong – “There is no compelling need to shift to Linux today”.
Yes, there is. Security/viruses/spyware. The average Windows user who’s not ready for Linux apparently is ready for HotBar and Sasser. That is a damn good reason for them to migrate.
There may be other reasons for people not to migrate – although I think 98% of the “ease of use” problems are people being used to Windows. KDE’s not drastically different – less so than OSX, and people manage to use that okay.
>>1: Just copy the OS X method of installing and deinstalling packages. It’s the best and most easy way.
>>Try uninstalling an application with Linux without help of tools.
>>You have to perform a (de)install in terminal or does osx
>>use tools too?
Like risc says, dragging it into the trashcan is enough. Almost every application is just a hidden directory, for example you see Safari, but the real extension is Sarari.app which simply is a directory which contains all files. This is why moving the Safari Icon to the trashcan is enough to uninstall an application, all you really are doing is moving an directory to the trash. Basic, simple, works great.
Installing is also easy, download dmg image which is some sort of compressed iso image, system mounts it and you can drag the directory to whatever place you want on your harddisk. There is also no register which get’s messed up like with Windows.
About 90% of applications work like this.
Only advanced programs, usually ones that change system settings install themselves into library directories. Most of them include uninstallers also.
Quote: “Last time I checked the EXACT same problem happens for lesser technically adept windows users when something goes wrong…just ask anyone who’s ever worked in a windows based corporate helpdesk about the stupid ass questions they get asked…”
Absolutely true. You tell someone to find the my computer icon on their desktop and they double click it without you asking them to. You have to then tell them to exit that window and RIGHT click on the my computer icon. They then ask do I double click it?
The average user is dumb. And the average user doesn’t want to learn how to use a computer efficiently. They want to click here, click here, click there, type in what they need to type, click save and be done. If something goes wrong, they’re lost, and they want a geek (oops mean helpdesk) to help them. They are that lazy they won’t use Windows help (not that it’s that much help), would have conceptual problems using a search engine to help find the answer, and rtfm? no way! You never rtfm. Or the license agreement for that matter.
In this day and age, people are lazy. They’d rather pay $50 for support from a helpdesk than save a few $$$, spend half an hour and figure it out themselves. Sure, time costs money, but if they had basic levels of computer knowledge, it wouldn’t take them half an hour in most instances and researching a problem themselves would be more cost effective.
Large businesses like Microsoft because their mentality is ‘hey we can trust these guys cos they offer support’. They don’t even care about the cost of support. They just want a product that has “official” support, and that will apparently magically solve all issues.
Bleh..no wonder the human race is getting dumber as the years go by. It’s intrasincally linked to laziness.
Dave
What you point out IS the problem with “Desktop” computing. You DO need to be the Administrator in the current model. Too many every day things in Windows require Administrator privilege, and with the prevalence not-so-day-to-day that need to be done to compensate for the swiss-cheese security one more then ever needs to have computer administration skills to keep a Windows computer on life-support.
Now, if the OS could “Just Work” without any outside intervention. (Ever hear the story about the lost NetWare server . . .) AND the user could do everything the user would ever NEED to do on his computer without ever increasing his privilege level because the OS was DESIGNED right from the beginning . . . . .
Can i hotplug a digicam in Linux?
Can i hot plug a camrecoreder ?
Can i play all the games under the sun on Linux?
There is MS Office or Photoshop for OSX but not for Linux.
Don’t even think of the OSS-alternatives as they run also on Wintel.
Hey, i can chose to run firefox, OO.org or the gimp on Xp but i can’t run all win-based apps on Linux without the use of emulators; and that is a big limitation to many CONSUMERS.
No Linux is not ready for the mass market, yet. It’ll get there but we have to give it more time. I think that Linspire is closer than any other distro to become an alternative to XP.
Consumers want to use their pc to do photo editing, burning their family movies on DVD, playing games,
listing to music, use to contoll their model-railway, …
I don’t think Linux is ready for the desktop. It is ahead of Windows and OS X is several spheres, but it’s not ready for the desktop.
I think computers in general are hard and confusing to use. The only category of people who benefit from using computers today are knowledge and power users who have invested a ridiculous amount of time learning about computers and the way they operate.
Linux is hard to use because one has to invest a lot of time and effort into mastering its quirks. But so is Windows and OS X. What makes matters worse for Linux is that we insist on copying the horrible interfaces that has plagued the Macintosh and Windows operating system for years in an effort to attract their users.
The resultant effect is that users flock to Linux expecting it to work like Windows or OS X because it looks like Windows or OS X. Users become disappointed when Linux works differently from the OS they are accustomed to. We are doing more harm to Linux than good, when we try to make Linux look like Windows or OS X to pacify their users.
Linux has to best chance to change the landscape of desktop computing if only we stopped trying to focus on what others are doing, rather than what is best for users. We need to focus on the desktop of the future, not the twenty year old broken concepts we use today. We need to focus on user efficiency and interface ergonomics, not eye-candy(OS X) and related superficial appeal.
Linux might never be as popular as Windows on the desktop. At least not until some entity is willing to invest a billion dollars every year for the next ten years in promotion and marketing. Personally, popularity isn’t what matters to me. Having the most efficient, the most effective and the most productive way to interact with any computer should be the new goal of Linux, free and open software.
But if we keep looking up to OS X and Windows, we would never get there. OS X sells computers by making pretty and sleek interfaces as opposed to efficient ones. Microsoft sells computers by flawless marketing, unfair business tactics and license locks. Linux and many free software technologies pride themselves in reinventing twenty year old techniques and copying god-awful practices from Windows and OS X.
I wish Linux, its advocates, its developers and its visionaries could start looking into the future and stop embracing the past. I wish they could start genuinely pondering upon the problems that plague users and the way they interact with machinery. I wish we didn’t have to copy every hyped technology company X introduces even though the technologies we own, with a little polish, could easily outpace the hyped technology.
If our goal is to displace every computer running Windows or OS X just for the sake of popularity and some irrelevant market share statistics, then I am ashamed to be a part of this community. If, however, or goal is to use eclectic and open information from various fields of human knowledge to change the way we(all users) operate and interact with computers for the best, then we have a long way to go and Linux is no where ready for the desktop.
I haven’t read the whole thread, but I’ll say this. I think the whole problem with Linux is that there aren’t as many admins that know how to properly run Linux than there are for Windows. Sure, you can say: “Well, have them learn Linux! It’s not too difficult to learn!” To that, I ask: Would you let a Linux noobie admin of a few months or even one year be an administrator for your Linux network?
No? Well, now you see the problem. Once Linux has built a larger foundation of knowledgeable users, the size of its market share will grow. That is, of course, assuming Microsoft fails to keep their current userbase.
there is no really big need for support on Windows, 99,9% works pretty much out-of-the-box. most problem is with the applications themselves.
Linux is still more of an adventure for the technically interested than for the average user who wants to get stuff done without searching forums, posting bugreports and updating libs and packs with mile long version numbers or watching out for dependency problems for every app you install. then there is all those friggin distributions on top of that that all got diff problems,solutions and standards.
I second that.
After reading all the comments, it is clear that all the points made don’t relate to Windows or Linux, but just to their respective market shares.
It’s depressing how many people don’t get the difference.
Maybe the windows fanboys will get the point when Linux is gone, and they pay twice as much for their Microsoft updates as today.
is that Linux isn’t beating Windows on its own game. Linux does not run .exe or gets infected by viruses, etc. How does that compare to Windows? Nonetheless, when one needs some basic box to do some common and usual work, Linux is very competitive. Linux != Windows and will always be. This is the problem for Microsoft, as Linux is a competitor to its core business. Do you understand this? Linux *is* a competitor to the core business of Microsoft, and there is no way Microsoft will let the game rules be known or standard. So, either you use Linux and get used to the tradeoffs, or you keep using Windows until you get without money or tired of so many problems.
Quote: “So this guy has a degree in computer science, but can’t setup a video card in Linux? I’m assuming the video card is supported…probably some kind of ATI or Nvidia. So either the guy is lying or incompetent. Take your pick.”
Degrees have long since been vastly overrated imho.
Dave
I love the spirit behind Linux, OSS and FS, but at the actual status it isn’t ready for “Everybody’s Desktop”.
Yes, Linux is growing fast, and looking how it’s right now is how I know that we’ll see that day come.
I use Linux at some degree until today from redhat 4.x(1997?). And I had noticed the Linux Evolution, and you can be sure that Microsoft also noted this.
This is why actually Microsoft are speaking of security, cost and are changing it’s busines RP and Publicity and some strategies. In thay way I hope that in some day also change it’s business model, give away more benefits to it’s customers, with common sense and look at the reality of the distincts kinds of users around the world. Microsoft may see far from it’s pockets. For Microsoft everything is for money even the “free” things, and for a company it’s good, but in a human way it may be better.
What I hate from Microsoft? BSA, Coersion, Had to pay 3 times a license, the affirmation than all Linux user are or hackers or thiefs or abnormals.
Now my licences for Win311, and Win95 are in the trash.
Why I can pay two times for a license if the failure is in the hardware?
Why I can’t buy my computer without OS if I prefer use my favorite Linux distro?
There are many other scenaries, but the truth is the offensive enforcement policy of Microsoft tending to make every body stuk with them. It’s tecnology is acceptable, but it’s price and it’s practices are the bad side.
Linux had learned too much about usability and customer care from Windows an Mac, now it’s time for Microsoft to learn what Linux has to teach: Technology are for Human beings with sense and soul, not just stupids with money on it’s pockets.
Don’t try to hurry Linux, the right Linux for every body and every use is every day closer. All is about time, and that day will come soon.
Note: “customer care” here talks about GUI design and usability in this context.
Quote: “Can i hotplug a digicam in Linux?
Can i hot plug a camrecoreder ?
Can i play all the games under the sun on Linux? ”
first question – mostly yes. digikam, gphoto2 support a wide variety of cameras. Be aware, that some digicam manufacturers do not adhere to standards (ie usb mass devices) but make their cameras require proprietary drivers in order to work (Olympus are one).
2nd question – this i’m not sure on as I don’t play with camcorders. Someone else may be able to offer advice here…
3rd question – no you can’t. Not even via wine/cedega. But that is not Linuxs fault and never will be. It’s up to the lazy ass software developers to port. Don’t blame Linux for their laziness please. That’s like blaming BMW for the current price of petrol. We are seeing more native Linux games – neverwinter nights, jedi knight II, unreal tournament 2003 and 2004, doom III for starters. Game titles don’t get much bigger than these ones.
Dave
Personllay im glad.. the last thing I want is some n00b install ing linux and running as root with a nice open-realy for the spammers!
-nX
F the mass market. linux needs LARGE ROLLOUTS. When its easy to rollout, the big players will start using it more and more. We’re talking entities like BRAZIL, and India, and Germany…
Who gives a rat if some poor kid got suckered into trying out this linux fad? I FEEL BAD for all these people I see trying Linux and failing miserably. Why spent the effort? Go with what works unless you seriously plan on doing something with Linux you’re not going to do with MS. Suffering through this new fangled “command line” thing is a waste of everyones time if you’re never going to do anything with it.
Let the users come as they might, its nothing we should push on people. We need ROLLOUTS not users.
What makes matters worse for Linux is that we insist on copying the horrible interfaces that has plagued the Macintosh and Windows operating system for years in an effort to attract their users.
As opposed to what? bash, vi and tex?
We need to focus on user efficiency and interface ergonomics
And there are how many interface/ergonomics engineers working for linux projects today? Much more than at apple or microsoft i should think </sarcasm>
The problem is not that Linux distros are ready for mass market, it is if people is ready or educated enough. This is not 10 years ago, this is now.
Providing a better education about the use of computer to the public is very crucial.
Linux is still not ready for the mass.
I tried to install VMWare 4.5.2 on Linux and I was successful finally?!! ( It was SuSE 9.1 Pro ).
I installed it by clicking and typing 50 keystrokes.
Now I know that its not the problem of Linux but rather to the VMWare company; but even the developers there were unable to figure out a simple installation procedures to go through like in Windows due to lack of a decent install shield like program.
Mu first keystrokes were:
cd /home
./vmwareXXX.pl
…..
Linux is not simple and easy to use.
…………a great marketing tool for Windows where you need USB, Laptop useage, Infra-red connections, printer servers on the network router, plug-and-play and of coures ease of useage by the owner/customer especially with simple logical and intuitive language used in the descriptions of systems and procedures.
And the more the Linux crowd flails around looking for answers to noexistant problems and refuses to confront the real world of joe and jane average’s the quicker Linux will be religated to the scrap-bin of history in the desktop arena.
For a non-geek laptop installations remain a disaster.
I must add though I do enjoy the slight increase in Linux installs in the SOHO market as they represent future sales and installs for me of Windows 98 SE/2000 Pro.
From my observations Linux in most areas is far behind Win 2000 Pro and will always be trying to play catch-up to Microsoft and with an OS that is past 30yrs old too.
Adeptiva Linux, Stephan February, admitted that consumers find it difficult to use Linux because of the lack of support compared to Windows. “There is no compelling need to shift to Linux today,” he said. Despite the availability of user-friendly graphical user interfaces similar to what Windows-based desktops have, Linux remains a very technical software product with few people outside the technical community are available to support consumer users. My Take: I personally agree with this fellow.
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It’s not like you people have this terrific track record at predicting winners and losers.
Need you people be reminded of something called the Amiga? or BE? Or any other of the “easy-to-use-tech” you people tend to latch onto for whatever unfatomable reasons?
Linux and the BSD’s have survived and *THRIVED* over the years despite band-wagon- jumpers like you and they will continue to do so long after you all have gone onto chasing after chasing after the lastest shiny babble that catches your fancy.
What to know *WHY* Linux and the BSD’S will survive long after people like you dismiss them?
Because they didn’t and won’t make the *FATAL* mistake of trying to cater to people like you like Commodore,Atari and BE did.
In other words people like you don’t learn from history,but rather keep insising on repeating the same old stupid mistakes over and over again just like Commodore,Atari and BE did.
Not surprising, because they made the basic mistake of actually *listening* to those like you.
So what if Linux doesn’t get adopted by the “Consumer” market?
You think the Free Software/Open source movement of which Linux is a part of is going to roll over and die off like BE and Amiga movements basically did?
Not a chance. The BE and Amiga bases *NEEDED* the “Consumer” market. The Free Software/Opensource movement *DOESN’T*
Can i hotplug a digicam in Linux?
Yes
Can i hot plug a camrecoreder ?
Yes
Can i play all the games under the sun on Linux?
Some of them(Unreal Tournament 2004, Doom 3) but it’s more about Game publishers’ decision to port their games to Linux. After all, they are all tools to do that.
There is MS Office or Photoshop for OSX but not for Linux.
That is about publisher decision to port their softwares thus nothing to do with Linux. You have alternative like OOo and Gimp. Of course some features like WordArt is not available due to licensing issue.
Don’t even think of the OSS-alternatives as they run also on Wintel.
You remove the choice with that statement. After all, a crossplatform softwares allow a smoother transition to other OS.
Hey, i can chose to run firefox, OO.org or the gimp on Xp but i can’t run all win-based apps on Linux without the use of emulators; and that is a big limitation to many CONSUMERS.
In this case, it is more about your mindset to stick with the software than OS issues. What is the point to run a propertiary software where the publishers refuse to support Linux distros.
Consumers want to use their pc to do photo editing, burning their family movies on DVD, playing games,
listing to music, use to contoll their model-railway, …
That was solved for a long time, you need to find out what distro do that. You will be very surprised. Now that I have tested Fedora Core 3 RC3 and it did all of above, that statement is now obsolete.
Heh.
After you’ve installed the redmond platform several thousand times, not an exageration, in the course of your job over the years it looses all its appeal.
I have been using Linux since October 2003 and am extremely productive with it.
“Hey, i can chose to run firefox, OO.org or the gimp on Xp but i can’t run all win-based apps on Linux without the use of emulators; and that is a big limitation to many CONSUMERS.”
In this case, it is more about your mindset to stick with the software than OS issues. What is the point to run a propertiary software where the publishers refuse to support Linux distros.
The point is that the purpose of the OS is to enable us to run applications that in turn enable us to do work. Using an OS is not always a hobby.
It’s actually the biggest problem IMHO. People use an OS as a means to an end, the end being to be able to run the software that actually enables them to do something productive. An OS by itself isn’t very useful. It’s not about making political statements. Most people don’t care if something is proprietary or not.
Therefore, if the design applications (for example) on the *nix platform aren’t as good as those available for the Wintel or Mac platform, people won’t use *nix for the purpose of designing stuff.
What kind of design programs? . . . .
Could it be layout and publishing?: http://www.scribus.org.uk/gallery/scribus1.png
Advanced photo processing?: http://gimp.org/tutorials/Smart_Sharpening/
3D modeling and animation: http://www.blender3d.com/cms/Images.151.0.html
Video production?: http://heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra.php3
“So this guy has a degree in computer science, but can’t setup a video card in Linux? I’m assuming the video card is supported…probably some kind of ATI or Nvidia. So either the guy is lying or incompetent. Take your pick.”
Yea, depressing isn’t it? And I’m struggling to get that same degree, and I can setup other people’s code..
No, what’s depressing is that I’m struggling because the class is designed to anger you; and I’m quick to anger..
1.) It is easy to produce good packages. A basic understanding of the automake system will yield working compilable code. An understanding of your binary packaging system yields good packages. But some people don’t make good packages, and you can’t blame the system. It’s not wrong to require intelligence and problem solving skills from developers. They are the last ones you should have to baby. I understand the world doesn’t work so well, and there are some easy tools; but there is no cure for being an idiot.
2.) You’re right. However, since most of Joe Sixpack’s things work anyway I don’t see the problem. Right now, webcam support is few and far between; but most anything else that’s available at Best Buy you can find a model that works in linux. There are some things that may never be fully fixed. Once again, some devices don’t even work properly in the platform they’re designed to sell for! This is the nature of general purpose computing; you can’t change the nature of the beast.
3.) You sound like a billionaire; no amount is ever enough.
4.) Mozilla is not originally Linux, but it’s not originally Windoze either. It started working on a range of platforms. But you ignored my mention of Gaim, and Xchat. And it goes against OSS ideals to cut down the windows version to convince people to switch; that’s wrong.
5.) I care about the NSA. Mostly I care that they aren’t spying on me; but I do also consider them to be an important organization that I’d love to sell my soul and work for.
I agree with a previous statement, sort of. Do you want to know why Linux isn’t popular?
The same reason incandescant bulbs are still the most popular for the home consumer: Americans are aversed to change, afraid of technology, and typically ignorant of what’s happening around them.
I’m an American, I can say it :-p.
What kind of design programs? . . . .
Could it be layout and publishing?: http://www.scribus.org.uk/gallery/scribus1.png
Advanced photo processing?: http://gimp.org/tutorials/Smart_Sharpening/
3D modeling and animation: http://www.blender3d.com/cms/Images.151.0.html
Video production?: