The next major release of Debian aims at making installation easier for non-technical users. Debian developers have completely rewritten the Debian installer for the next version of the Linux distribution, code-named Sarge.
Debian Sarge focuses on easy installation
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The new installer is really nice and makes it easy to get a system up an running. It isn’t pretty, but it isn’t difficult – which I think is more important. It really gives Debian a leg up on a distribution like Gentoo (although Gentoo is supposed to have an easy installer next year).
Simply MEPIS is Debian, what could be easier then that?
SimplyMEPIS is dead easy to use but as the article said Ubuntu is also. Most Debian distro’s aimed at the desktop are relativly easy to operate.
Also the Debian installer (if you never used it) was pretty horrible for Woody. One of the beta releases I believe it was that I tried introduced the new installer which was a great amount of relief. It still needed some work, but that was a few months ago so I’m sure it has become much better. Nice job on Debian’s part.
And as for a GUI installer, well I’d make sure you have a useable backend beforehand. The GUI is valueless with a crummy backend.
There needs to be an easy way for users to get x11 along with gnome/kde/other running on debian. This is the biggest problem I see with non-technical users trying debian, they go through the install but have no clue on howto setup x11 or the config script was insuficent for thier hardware.
Why not just use something like Ubuntu to install then change the apt repositories to debian and apt-get upgrade?
Obviously this is another step to have to go through but for now it’s an easy way to get Debian installed.
Didn’t Progeny port Anaconda over to Debian? In any case, I think the big thing missing from any installer I’ve seen is the ability to resize an existing windows partition and dual boot. Users who don’t want to ‘wipe out all existing data’ and try Debian really might like this feature. I know that when I install gnu/linux at my office I’ll get in deep trouble if something goes wrong and there’s no windows partition to backup to.
To my knowledge the only distro that can resize an existing windows partition is Mandrake. Would love to be wrong about that though.
I ran Sarge for a month or two, having used one of the release candidates for the new installer. I found the new installer to be very easy to use. Straightfoward.
Of course, I had just arrvied from a ten month vacation in Gentoo-land, so… after that, any installer would be considered “easy” 😉
Seriously though, it worked very well. Most of the work with getting Sarge working as a desktop came after the install, when I had to upgrade to the 2.6 kernel, udev + hald + d-bus, alsa, multimedia stuff, etc. Not too bad. A heck of a lot easier to customize and setup than Gentoo.
There were some nagging bugs in Sarge… especially with my ALSA sound controls always going back to minimal volume/mute. But overall it worked well.
On the other hand… Ubuntu has all of the modern toys setup by default. ALSA worked without the volume problem! GNOME 2.8 is included too. You only have to install the multimedia stuff yourself. This page was very helpful and made setting up those DVD and mp3 bells and whistles easy:
http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RestrictedFormats/view?searchterm=d…
It is worth noting that the Ubuntu also uses the Sarge installer.
I really think they should make it graphical – or at least the option to have it be graphical. Text based – even if it’s through ncurses dialogs can be intimidating.
I used Debian before I switched to Ubuntu.
easier said than done. Debian must support all the architectures they currently support for all their packages and systems before they make a graphical GUI.
A GUI installer? What for? You’ll have to accept it’s not Windows-installer; it’s Linux. When are people gonna understand Linux != Windows && Windows != Linux
The text-based installer is good enough. And if you cannot handle a text-based installer, you’re probabely a newbie. Other Linux distro’s (SuSE, Mandrake) are more suitable for newbies than Debian!
Another thing: I think Debian should really hurry up releasing Sarge. I’ve been using it on several archs without any problems. The only problem is: it’s not officially branded as stable (and thus nothing [security updates] is guaranteed!).
Actually, Text UIs can be much less intimidating than GUIs.
Most VCR have a text interface for on-screen TV programming. It’s dead simple to use. You’re given a limited number of clear choices. Navigation is simply a matter of moving between different fields with the UP or DOWN keys on the remote. You don’t have to worry about aiming a mouse anywhere or recognizing custom controls or clicking the right number of times. It’s basically a good 1970’s style “pick a number” interface with more a cheerful colour scheme.
I haven’t used the Sarge install, but if it’s designed right, it can be very friendly. The reason text installs are often more intimidating than GUI installs boils down to one reason — poor design. When people write modern GUI installs, they typically assume that their users are less technically inclined, so they put in the time to make it less intimidating and pretty. If that effort were put into text based installs, stuff like Debian’s old dselect installs would not be released until it was at least as user friendly as the lowly *command line* apt-get.
The new Debian Installer is my favorite linux installer right now: Simple, fast, and it gets the job done.
Is easy to install the base system. But from there on it is not easy at all. I advised an old Slackware user who was looking for a new distro to try Sarge. He found the package selection very confusing. And I find the package installation far too verbose.
And an intuitive script to configure X is also desperately needed.
Well I used the old one and man it was a long process no where near gentoo but long nonetheless. The new installer is great and I cant wait to the final release of sarge. Debian caught me when I got tired of Mandrake and now i dont miss mandrake at alll.
“Debian caught me when I got tired of Mandrake and now i dont miss mandrake at alll.”
Well, let’s shake hands 🙂
I here Ubuntu has plans to make a GUI installer.
Since Ubuntu gives back to Debian, this will probably help Debian to get there GUI installer at some point.
I don’t consider myself anything more than a competant user of linux (it’s my desktop of choice at home for economic/philosophical reasons) but I didn’t find the old install that difficult really. Armed with a little information (just enough to be dangerous!) gleened from the mostly excellent walkthough featured on OS news a while back: [ http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2016 ] it was not much of a problem. I’ve also used the debian installer and have to say the lack of interaction needed was noticeable. I’m now into a few weeks of ubuntu usage and must say I find this distro a general pleasure to install and use (even on my ancient celeron)… one thing i’d like to see in Debian installer is a larger range of preselected partitioning options (schemes), because that stage always causes me some pause for thought – mostly because I don’t know what is best for me and end up just installing everying in the one partition (besides swap, of course). I seem to remember the only other option was a seperate home partition, or manual edit). It’d also be nice to be able to install a vanilla debian with ubuntu/OSX style rootless setup (given a choice).
Does anyone know of a good partitioning guide for Debian b.t.w?
In response to the comment above about windows installer – the key usability ‘feature’ of a windows install is you are never asked for anything, really (perhaps the time?). The fact that the windows installer is graphical is meaningless, all the graphics seem to be used for is pretty pictures boasting about ease of use. I agree, text mode is all I need for an installer – I like the choice and I like to be given information during the install to inform my choices.
Really Stu, unless it is a production system at work or something, there is nothing wrong with creating a giant / partition + swap.
If you are paranoid, you can get really fancy and create a separate /usr partition and mount it read-only and stuff like that, but for a desktop there isn’t much of a point.
One thing you can do too… is create a /media partition to store all of your digital media, like photos, music, stuff like that. That way if you blow away your / partition, the /media partition is still there… and doesn’t go bye-bye.
Heck, you can do it any way you want. There are no hard and fast rules. That is the beauty of UNIX.
Yeah if you want to protect stuff creating a partition scheme will really do it well. They also sometimes recommend doing that for /home but I don’t bother since I have a server I keep my things on.
As for the Debian installer as said previously, well yeah that was my point in essence. A text based installer is fine if it’s designed well and makes sense. The Debian Woody installer was clumsy and not very concise at all. The Sarge installer is much better, and it’s still text based. As I said before, if the installer doesn’t work good, a GUI frontend really is worthless and more of a problem.
10 month vacation in Gentoo: Haha yeah I can understand. The first few times are insane. Once you learn it well though, it’s really not hard at all. In fact, it’s really just script running and waiting long periods of time for the most part. Makes a not bad system, but I’m in a FreeBSD mood these days.
And just what is wrong with being a “newbie” ? Everyone was a newbie at one point or another.
The goal of the new installer is to get more inexperienced computer users to try out Debian linux. Tough to try if you can’t understand the installer.
If debian’s installer needs to be ported to many different architectures, then perhaps the developers should gauge WHO will be the target audience for an easy to use installer? Certainly not people on DEC Alpha or SPARC machines. If I were them, I’d start with x86 and move on to ppc, using those 2 architectures for the new installer will cover 99.9% of new users. If you’re an experienced system administrator, you probably don’t want or need a friendly, easy to use installer over scripting.
stop with the highschool senior picking on highschool freshmen mentality. You didn’t design even 1 piece of “linux” you simply learned how to use and manipulate it–doesn’t make you a genious, just someone with lots of spare time and spare computers.
SUSE has been able to resize NTFS partitions since IIRC 9.0 and I think a few other distros can too (maybe Linspire or Xandros?).
I have never used it since my Linux partitions are on a different hard drive from my Windows partition, but I’ve heard it works well.
I haven’t used the new DI since TC1 and that was a net install, so maybe I’m a bit off. I have, however, installed Woody in the past, and judging from the rest of the new DI, I can’t imagine package selection being any harder than in Woody (which was fairly easy).
That said, how is having the choice of a minimal install, a full install, or going through and hand picking from hundreds of packages without any dependency resolution considered easier than tasksel and dselect? Like I said above, I just installed the base system and then got the rest with apt-get, but did it really change that much for the worse that Slackware’s package selection could possibly be called easier? Or is it just that it’s different from what you guys are used to and thus a mental roadblock?
Maybe I’ll have to compare Sarge’s final installer to Slack 10.1
And I really should point out that I’m by no means saying the new DI is easier than Slackware at package selection. I clearly haven’t used the new installer enough to make a statement like that, and my suspicion is that they’re actually quite equal in this respect. Just different.
The new installer is also easier for technical users because it is straightforward, fast, doesn’t ask `useless’ things, but still _flexible_ (like NetBSD and FreeBSD are, too). I think even technical users like that. At least, i do.
If debian’s installer needs to be ported to many different architectures, then perhaps the developers should gauge WHO will be the target audience for an easy to use installer? Certainly not people on DEC Alpha or SPARC machines.
Debian GNU/Linux is (or tries to be) platform independent. I’ll be happy with easy installers for SPARCs and Alphas. No matter what OS. Especially if the installer is similar to the x86 installer thats a ++.
If I were them, I’d start with x86 and move on to ppc, using those 2 architectures for the new installer will cover 99.9% of new users.
..but Debian GNU/Linux doesn’t aim to please 99.9% of the users only. Besides, who are you to demand what people ought to port or not?
(That’s what Gentoo, NetBSD did but they also included other architectures. Do complain about that as well?)
Since Ubuntu gives back to Debian, this will probably help Debian to get there GUI installer at some point.
Anaconda got ported by Progeny to Debian. Its there, but Debian doesn’t use it.
The last debian installer I tried was the Sarge net install, which is let’s face it, easy as pie even if you enter the installer with the “expert” parameter (which you should use anyway if you’re installing debian proper). Sure it lacks a pretty gui but the menus are VERY straight forward and easy to navigate. The bottom line is it just works, unlike several other distribution’s graphical installers that hang and crash. As long as you can use the tab, space bar, and enter key you’ll be fine.
The Debian installer works, and works cross platform (I’ve installed it on an x86 and a ppc machine here) and that speaks volumes, the install process for the most part is the same no matter which platform you use. I’ll gladly sacrifice a gui installer for the ability to have a uniform install process on differnt architecture, knowing no matter which hardware I choose I can get a Debian system up and running on it without much effort.
My only sore spot with the install process (and this is not really the fault of the installer, pre se) — the XF86Config-4 setup. Yes, it is horrendous and leaves MUCH to be desired. IMHO this is something that should be addressed in the .deb package for xserver-xfree86.
Case in point… installing xserver-xfree86 and running through it’s err umm “configuration wizard” left me with well NOTHING useable! Even knowing the horizontal, vertical, refresh rates, and resolutions specs of my monitor, entering this info into the configuration wizard produced a config file that would refuse to boot to anything graphical. My solution was to boot from a Knoppix live CD and copy the working XF86config-4 file to overwrite the one that got borked from the get-go installing Debian. Knoppix gets this point right, I didn’t have to manually enter anything, nor did I have to tweak anything after the fact! The CD booted into a working XServer with a config generated completely by autodetection. Bottom line, it just worked.
I’m not sure how GPL friendly the software for detection of X related hardware (Monitor, vid card, keyboard, mouse) is in Knoppix. If it is kosher according to Debian standards I’d highly recommend incorporating that autodetection code into the i386 deb for xserver-xfree86.
From a newbie standpoint (even from a not-so-newbie standpoint) not being able to boot into somthething graphical can be frustrating enough to make one give up on the distro right there. I can’t reiterate enough how unacceptable this is. (I’d also like to see Debian make the jump from XFree86 or X.org but that won’t come to fruition for some time to come.)
Ideally installing X (or anything dependant on X when X is not installed [like wmaker, kde, gnome] ) should configure X to “just work”. Anything less is just asking for someone to use another distro. Not everyone is going to be clever like me and find a work around, though that does seem to be the linux way -sigh–
This shortcoming as I stated, I feel belongs to the xserver-xfree86 .deb and not to the system installer itself. The net installer does a great job of installing a minimum Debian system to an up and working status without installing a lot of extraneous junk many Debian-based distros these days see fit to install for you.
gnome 2.6, meh
no xorg, meh
text installer is perfect!no need gui installer.it is clear enough!it is easier to install Debian than windoze crap.it gives you even package selection options many distro don’t.if newbies are having difficulties use suse or mandrake instead what are like windoze crap.Debian won’t use any mepis or ubuntu installer because it is not live cd.Linux installation should be clear,to me Gentoo Linux installer is GREAT!why because it teachs you while you are installing it and you learn,know your system,you understand what you are doing.well if you say no I don’t won’t to learn then use windoze crap and pay and buy firewall,antivirus program licence for year,spyware cleaner program,registiry cleaner program and defrag often,scandisk often,optimise often,rn antivirus program everyday get hacked instead
screenshots of a Sarge installation: http://osdir.com/shots/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=135&slide=1
Haha very true. Gentoo installations are kinda fun but like I said, pretty easy when you get the jist of it. Reality is it’s not all that tough, script running is all. Helps make it custom by far, I can say though. Though then again, all installers on a Linux/BSD scale are pretty flexible in that regard.
I’ll tell ya also though, take a look at LFS. If you’re really into Gentoo and learning the system, you’ll get a kick out of LFS. I could never finish one installation of it, not even close. Scares me alright lol. Oh well.
Who need a graphical installer ? or A graphical Boot Screeen
you only install once your system and there’s no need to reinstall so it’s good to focus on the day to day use.
and you boot your system and it’s running all day or week or month day without need to reboot.
if you install and install your system you’ll learn that only pressing enter your system will be installed.
Open your eyes to what YOU really NEED
ubuntu is not debian. mepis is not debian. knoppix is not debian. damn small linux is not debian. etc etc etc
i’ve wasted HOURS with idiotic morons who seem incapable of understanding that “based” on does not mean “same as”, and that Debian solutions simply do not apply to not-debian distributions.
In the immortal words of #debian’s dpkg bot:
* dpkg takes away OSNews Readers’ oxygen and replaces it with ozone. “It’s just like oxygen! It’s based on oxygen!”
dpi, I didn’t demand anything. Re-read what you quoted from me,
PERHAPS THE DEVELOPERS SHOULD GAUGE WHAT PLATFORM THEY PORT TO FIRST?
does that sound like a demand?
Again, the goal of the installer is bring more users with less experience than you.
I wish Debian would maybe ease up on all the architectures and packages they try to support. I think it is a classic case of chewing up more than you can swallow. Maybe they should introduce a source code solution for the more exotic packages and architectures (like port and portage). Anyways, I’ve been waiting for Sarge release for over a year and a half. I’m still waiting. They need to change something. Might someone even suggest *gasp* working around a roadmap. I think a new release every 1.5 – 2 years and security support for 5 years afterwards is perfect.
You are far too radical.
You are not the only Debian user and not everybody feels like you.
Yes there is only one Debian Proper, but the others have various degrees of compatibility. Xandros or Linspire will be hardly compatible at all, but the others…
In my view, when with a Debian based distro you can perform an aptitude dist-upgrade, and nothing goes wrong, *even the kernel* gets upgraded to a stock Debian one, and you keep installing and upgrading from Debian.org, where are the differences with Debian Proper?
This is the case with my Libranet install: only Adminmenu didn’t come from an official Debian repository. Everything else has been replaced.
Do you believe that Ian Murdock can have a say about this issue? Have a look:
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=8840&offset=15&rows=30
Yeah, what distinguishes “Debian” from other Debian based distibutions? Is it the apt sources? What happens if someone uses stock Debian, but customizes the sources.list file to include things that aren’t included in the stock sources? Is it suddenly not Debian anymore? Is it “Joe’s Linux: Based on Debian”? Do RedHat/Fedora users say that people who don’t use the “Official Sources” for packages are suddenly not using RedHat/Fedora anymore?
I certainly don’t think so.
As for “…Debian solutions simply do not apply to not-debian distributions”, I haven’t come across one “Debian” solution that hasn’t worked on my Libranet boxes.
It depends on how you look at it all. You say that mepis et al are not Debian. I’ll move the argument a step further – if you have a application, released under the GPL, and someone takes it, improves it and releases it, is it the same application? Well? You can change the name of the application for the new release yes (if permitted under the GPL), but – the core of the application most probably is unchanged. What’s in a name?
Mepis, Xandros, Linspire, Libranet etc are all part of the growing Debian family. They share core features and abilities. As long as usage of standard Debian repositories is not broken all is fine in my eyes (and many others). You really need to relax up a bit I think (and I thought I was a tense person).
Dave
Hello.
I have installed Debian using the new installer on two different machines, an AMD 900MHz Duron and a PII 350MHz.
On each machine the installation was totally painless.
I chose the network install and in my opinion the only thing that’s really needed for the install is a fast ethernet connection.
I have a cable modem and the install on each machine was a little more than an hour.
Anyway I been using both machines on a network so I can learn more about networking to try to increase my knowlege because up to now I only used linux for desktop tasks.
Peace man,
Jim