The Mac Mini is the perfect candidate for a new geek-war for year 2005. Some love it, some say it is just overpriced old hardware. One thing is for sure: there are guys already experimenting a Linux and Mac Mini setup. All of the hardware, as you can read, is already supported.For years, people have criticized Macs for being more expensive than Windows PCs. Although at one time that was the case, those of us in the know realized a couple years ago that when you look at comparably equipped Macs and brand-name Windows PCs—that is, once you add the hardware features and software to a Windows PC that come stock on a Mac—the differences in price are much smaller, if they exist at all. This aspect of “price comparisons” has been lost on many tech pundits and analysts (as is the fact that Macs generally come with an excellent software bundle unmatched on budget PCs).
The Mac Mini fever; Comparing Apples and Oranges
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
82 Comments
2005-01-24 11:31 pm
“I have a Mac that is only a few weeks old and at $1500 and 1 GB of memory, it is painfully slow compared to PCs that are in the same price range.”
Assuming you didn’t get ripped off and bought something used for way too much money or otherwise got a totally tricked out eMac and paid the same price, G5 towers in that price range are EXTREMELY fast and in no way whatsoever can be equated as slow whether it be in the actual sense or even compared to other PCs.
While you can buy a PC with a faster processor than a $1,500 processor you would also be sacrificing on other features that would have otherwise came with the Mac. As we all know, with a PC you can buy less and pay less but that does not make Macs more expensive, though it does make them less configurable. Had you spec’d the PC with the same components in hardware and software, the PC would have cost more.
2005-01-24 11:48 pm
target disk mode is booting off of an external firewire, right? I wonder which is faster.
No target disk mode is not booting off of an external firewire drive. Target disk mode is a feature that comes with nearly all firewire equiped macs (I say nearly because G3 Blue&Whites aren’t capable, but I believe some G3 powerbook models are). Essentially, you reboot the computer while holding down the “T” key and rather than start up the whole system, only the system drive is spun up. (in a nut shell–for further details check out <http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58583>). You can then connect the computer to any other macintosh via the firewire cable and the system drive will mount on the desktop.
You can do things like boot your tower off of your laptop’s system drive, transfer files quickly between machines, ghost machines, etc.. etc.. etc…
I honestly don’t know if there is a similar feature in the PC world.
2005-01-24 11:52 pm
This is where I am just that tad little disappointed in our friend selling off his shiny new mini after 48 hours.>>
And I’m kicking myself for not getting over to evilBay in time to snag that puppy for $455. 
2005-01-24 11:57 pm
> JP, if you recall the thread on the day that the mini was announced, Eugenia pretty much went off on the fact that the Mini had no line in and that line out only was terrible on Apple’s part.
It is terrible and I do maintain my position. The $2 dollar connector absense will FORCE many users (including garageband users that it’s software included with the Mac Mini), to spend $40 to get an external sound card in order to get a hold of a mic jack and line-in. It is not about trying “to find negative points and hold them high up” as you said, it is about being negatively surprised by the absense of these connectors that can be found even on the CHEAPEST PC on the market for the last 10 years.
As for the PCWorld article who said that the Line-out jack doubles as a line-in jack, I believe it’s mistaken. The specs do not write anything about that, PLUS, it would have been more EXPENSIVE to do it that way because it requires special hardware to switch from one to another functionality. That’s why cheap PCs do come with all these jacks seperately: it’s cheaper that way.
2005-01-25 12:12 am
I was looking through the specs of the Mini and was disappointed that it did not have an built-in mic like in the iBooks since it does not have a audio line in. Without a mic, iChat AV just turns into iChat V unless you get a plugin for USB of Firewire. Not a gamestopper, but disappointing nonetheless.
I could be mising something but this is all I saw under audio in the macmini specs page.
Audio
Built-in speaker
Headphone/Audio Line-out jack
Hopefully, future versions will have atl least a built-in mic.
2005-01-25 12:29 am
Obviously all of the people here complaining about audio in have no idea about a project code named asteroid being developed by Apple for Garageband.
2005-01-25 12:31 am
“”I have a Mac that is only a few weeks old and at $1500 and 1 GB of memory, it is painfully slow compared to PCs that are in the same price range.”
Assuming you didn’t get ripped off and bought something used for way too much money or otherwise got a totally tricked out eMac and paid the same price, G5 towers in that price range are EXTREMELY fast and in no way whatsoever can be equated as slow whether it be in the actual sense or even compared to other PCs.
While you can buy a PC with a faster processor than a $1,500 processor you would also be sacrificing on other features that would have otherwise came with the Mac. As we all know, with a PC you can buy less and pay less but that does not make Macs more expensive, though it does make them less configurable. Had you spec’d the PC with the same components in hardware and software, the PC would have cost more.”
I have a base model ibook with 1gb of ram and a 3 yr Applecare warranty and that comes out to $1500. If I bought the cheapest G5 tower, I would start at $1500 and then would need to add $80 for wireless, $250 for the 3 year warranty, and $260 for a 1GB dimm ( http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.asp?Mfr%2BProductline=Ap… ). It certainly would be much more powerful than the ibook, but I didn’t want to spend $2200 for my latest Mac.
When I compare that single cpu G5 against even a modest PC, like a $1090 machine—-
http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/bundleDetail.do?oid=115459&bundleId=…
Gateway Media Center Desktop PC (816GM) • AMD Athlon 64 3400+
• 200GB hard drive
• 512MB RAM • Dual-layer DVD+/-RW drive
• 7 USB 2.0 & 3 FireWire
• 8-in-1 memory reader
TV Tuner and Remote
MS Windows Media Center 2005
Gateway Monitor (FPD1750) • Flat-panel LCD
• 17” display • 1280 x 1024 resolution
• On-screen controls
Lexmark X2250 Printer/ Scanner/ Copier (0021T0000) • Print up to 14 ppm
• Up to 4800 x 1200 dpi • 48-bit flatbed scanner
• Copy up to 13 cpm
If I deck out the the G5 1.8GHz with 512mb ram and leave all else the same, the PC will still be about $500 less and has a more powerful cpu, a 17″ lcd, a nice all in one printer, a card reader, a tv tuner and remote, a dual layer/dual format dvd burner, double the video memory, and 2.5 times the hard drive space. If I added another $400 or $500 in add-ons, I could double the ram, or add a much more powerful video card, or add nice 5.1 speakers, etc.
I hope you see what I mean now.
2005-01-25 12:35 am
“I was looking through the specs of the Mini and was disappointed that it did not have an built-in mic like in the iBooks since it does not have a audio line in. Without a mic, iChat AV just turns into iChat V unless you get a plugin for USB of Firewire. Not a gamestopper, but disappointing nonetheless.
I could be mising something but this is all I saw under audio in the macmini specs page.
Audio
Built-in speaker
Headphone/Audio Line-out jack
Hopefully, future versions will have atl least a built-in mic.”
and “Obviously all of the people here complaining about audio in have no idea about a project code named asteroid being developed by Apple for Garageband.”
Adding Asteroid or any USB or Firewire sound solution adds expense and takes a port if you currently have one free. With the limited number of firewire and USB 2 ports, you are almost certainly looking at adding a hub of some sort as well. More expense. More wires. More clutter. More space taken away from your desk area….
2005-01-25 12:38 am
2005-01-25 12:53 am
Adam, thats great if you are looking to get a PC but most Mini customers are looking to run MacOSX so I don’t see the point in these comparisons. The Dell PC is huge also so I don’t think people in the market for a tiny computer even by ITX standards so I don’t see them shopping for ATX and micro-ATX boxes.
Sorry, but you do not understand how common people who come from a Windows/x86 world think. Those people, a huge majority, compare the Mac Mini, Linux, and other technologies to what they use and what they’re used to my friend. Wether thats justified or whatever the quality of what they use is inferior (both Windows and x86 are IMO) doesn’t matter much to them. If they can’t use the Mac Mini for ~ the same price and ~ the same features with ~ the same easy, they won’t buy it.
Keep in mind that we’re not talking about a few euros (or dollars, or whatever). I mean, say if you can chose between X and Y and one costs 500 and the other one 550. Then you start comparing features since they’re ~ in the same price range. Most wouldn’t say ‘oh thats too expensive, give me the 500 one’. No, the differences are quite huge so to say. That is to say that, when one buys a new computer, he/she can get a very versatile configuration. Apple does its best i believe in both hardware support and price (as does Linux) but for many people its just not getting there. Now, before one says ‘proof it’ i refer to the previous analysis in OSnews its announcements of the Mac Mini.
Also keep in mind that ‘gimmicks’ which advantage use may or may not be obvious in first place (such as how beautiful OSX may be or how open the source of Linux may be, or how nice the clones of software may be) are in no way comparable to obvious (dis)advantages such as (backwards-)compatibility, price, stability, hardware power and the applications they’re used to. In fact, 2 of those (backwards-compatibility (hard- AND software) and price) is what made x86 succesful in the first place. Both Opteron and Itanium deliver this backwards-compatibility and i hope once price as well. I’m no analyst by means, but i expect AMD will come up with a 64-bit commodity computer before 2006.
2005-01-25 12:56 am
>Adding Asteroid or any USB or Firewire sound solution adds expense and takes a port if you currently have one free. With the limited number of firewire and USB 2 ports, you are almost certainly looking at adding a hub of some sort as well. More expense. More wires. More clutter. More space taken away from your desk area….
That’s the point though the Apple Mac mini is as cut down as Apple could go to hit a certain price point. People who haven’t realised this have missed the point completely. IMHO the Mac mini is no cheaper than any other Mac out there it just comes with a lot less stuff, for a lot less money.
2005-01-25 1:16 am
“That’s the point though the Apple Mac mini is as cut down as Apple could go to hit a certain price point. People who haven’t realised this have missed the point completely. IMHO the Mac mini is no cheaper than any other Mac out there it just comes with a lot less stuff, for a lot less money.”
I don’t know Apple’s exact logic behind marketing the mini, nor does anyone short of probably a few dozen high level executives and the pertinent people from their marketing dept. If I had to guess the logic behind the mini, Apple is more focused on small and the special nature it creates by being “super” small than they are on price. I don’t buy it that adding a couple of audio ports adds any appreciable expense.
If however Apple had decided to make the mini two times as thick to accomodate a standard 3.5″ hard drive, it would still be super small and would 1) cost Apple less as 3.5″ drives are less expensive 2) given their end users better performance via even plain jane 5400 rpm drives and 3) would give their users options for self installed or Apple installed large hard drives (up to 400 GB in 3.5″ these days)—whats the largest laptop hard drive these days 100 or 120GB?
Likewise two times as thick they should have been able, I would guess (I’m no engineer), to add better audio options and possibly a second memory slot.
For some reason, Apple focused more on size and sacrificed expansion, hard drive storage, audio ports, etc. I would also say that going super small drove the price up with customization and engineering hurdles. Using a more standard size would have cost less, but does cost more to stock the machines, ship the machines, etc.
2005-01-25 1:27 am
I was talking to my Apple rep and according to him, roughly 70% of mini orders were coming from PC users looking to try out a Mac for the first time.
2005-01-25 1:30 am
I suppose we’ll find out exactly how “terrible” the omission of the audio in jack is once Apple’s sales numbers for the mini are announced.
So, just how bad do the numbers have to be to substantiat the omission’s level of terrible-ness?
2005-01-25 1:33 am
Most PC consumers won’t even realize that such jacks are missing from the mini. They will buy the unit and find out later. Most PC consumers don’t read specs in full detail because they know what to expect from the basic configuration of a computer.
2005-01-25 1:38 am
Are 99% of all PCs sold less than $500? It looks like, since one gets such a killer system, no one would buy PCs for more than $300.Even if a Mac was given away free, some PC troll would point out that if you buy such and such PC you would even get some money back!
When a PC user buys a computer, it appears that he/she looks only at the price and specifications while when a Mac user buys a computer, he/she asks first what the he/she wants to accomplish (e.g video editing, or laptop vs desktop etc) and buys a Mac to satisfy those needs. Mac users buy Macs for the OS and the software it comes with. As someone once said, when you buy a Mac, the hardware is free since you are paying for the software!
When I bought my PC, I bought one that I thought would run a chess software program (PC only) reasonably well. I finally ended up getting an IBM thinkpad E series although I could have gotten the E-machine for much less (mainly because it was so huge and I like laptops to desktops)
In any case, if one wants to try Os X, the lowest priced rig currently available is Mac mini. It is not a cheap machine only lowest priced. I am getting rather tired of all these price comparisons showing that one platform is less expensive than the other. If you want a cheap PC go ahead and get that PC. If you want Mac then just buy one you are able to afford. They all are good for running Os X and the included iLife software- they are designed for that specific purpose.
For a very unbiased performance evaluation of Macs from a die-hard PC user’s perspective check out todays posting on AnandTech (http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/default.aspx?bid=164). In this report he evaluates a PowerBook G4 .15 Ghz and finds that it is quite spiffy. He states that the mini would probably have these same performance attributes.
Cheers
2005-01-25 2:19 am
2005-01-25 2:53 am
2005-01-25 5:45 am
“For years, people have criticized Macs for being more expensive than Windows PCs. Although at one time that was the case, those of us in the know realized a couple years ago that when you look at comparably equipped Macs and brand-name Windows PCs—that is, once you add the hardware features and software to a Windows PC that come stock on a Mac—the differences in price are much smaller, if they exist at all. This aspect of “price comparisons” has been lost on many tech pundits and analysts (as is the fact that Macs generally come with an excellent software bundle unmatched on budget PCs).”
I take exception to the idea that an inexpensive PC, or a PC that is less expensive than a Mac, somehow comes with a defective set of software or a set of software that is less than what you get in a Mac…especially if you consider that with the money you will save on the machine, you have the option of buying exactly the software you need or want. So lets take a look:
A consumer Mac mini now comes with:
Mac OS X version 10.3 “Panther,” includes Classic environment, Mail, iChat AV, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, QuickTime, iSync, iCal
Software iLife ‘05 (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand), AppleWorks, Quicken 2005 for Mac, Nanosaur 2, Marble Blast Gold and Apple Hardware Test for either base prices of $499 or $599.
Apple doesn’t list it in the specs but I assume that Apple developer tools are also included on the hard drive just like all other Macs.
then lets compare to a recent inexpensive PC ($359):
http://pcversusmac.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=145
XP Home with svc pk 2 with
firewall
windows media player 10
window movie maker 2.1
photostory 3
windows messenger
msn messenger
ms anti spyware
remote assistance
internet explorer 6
outlook express 6
msn desktop search
ms reader
plus dancers le!
windows xp powertoys
a variety of games
ms backup
system restore
PC Security software:
Norton AntiVirus 2005: Protect your PC (includes 60 days of complimentary live updates)
Norton Personal Firewall 2004 includes 60 days of live updates
SpamSubtract Basic: Eliminate offensive email. Get 30 days of SpamSubtract Pro to filter inappropriate content, text and graphics, and commercial junk email (English only).
SpySubtract Basic: Protect your PC from unwanted spyware. Get 30 days of SpySubtract Pro (English only)
Productivity:
Microsoft® Works 8.0:
(Word Processor
Spreadsheet
Share and Edit Files with Word and Excel Users
Database
Calendar
Address Book
Project Organizer
Calendar and Address Book Synch with Pocket PC and Palm Devices
Dictionary
Thesaurus (English dictionary only)
Dictionary Encarta Lookup button
Supports Multiple Calendars
supports iCalendar (.ics) format appointments so you can share appointments into other calendars like Microsoft Outlook at work or other internet calendars.
New! PowerPoint Viewer
New! Autosave and Recover for Word Processor and Spreadsheet )
Compaq Organize: Access your files, applications, and websites from one location (English only).
Microsoft® Money Standard 2005: Manage your personal finances and investments (English only)
Intuit Quicken 2005 New User Edition: Track your home finances and investments (English only)
MSN Encarta Standard Online: Access complete encyclopedia, maps center, dictionary and thesaurus (1 year trial subscription included)
Adobe Reader 7.0: Read and print PDF files
Entertainment:
Apple iTunes for Windows: Digital music jukebox for importing music, organizing your collection and more
Sonic RecordNow: Burn music CDs and archive your data to CDs
RealPlayer: Find, play and organize digital programming – sports, entertainment, news and more
Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition
WildTangent GameChannel: Preview 10 computer games (English only)
Quicktime
PC is $140 less expensive than the Mac. Has a monitor and keyboard and mouse and speakers. Add that to the mini and you are talking more like a $250 price difference.
The pc has no dvd player. Can get a 16x dvd burner for about $50 these days and jump right ahead of the mini. With it will come windvd or powerdvd and then nero oem suite or some other burning software. The last dvd burner i got cost $54 and included:
Powerdvd xp 4 and nero oem suite 3 that includes nero express 6, incd 4, nero vision express 2, nero backitup, nero showtime, dvd plug in, nero recode, nero media player, nero toolkit, and nero cover designer.
So the $359 PC plus $50 dvd burner gets me the above. I’m still about $200 less than a mini with monitor keyboard and mouse.
Am I missing some software versus the mini? Yep, the Apple developer tools are pretty swift. I can a get full set of command line .net tools from ms if I like or any number of dozens of open source and/or free developer tools and ides for windows or linux work. Or I can choose to use my savings of $200 to get something else if this is important to me.
Garageband is not a mainstream app, but if I want something I can download Sony Acid Xpress 5 for free and get free loops from Sony and all over the net. Or I can choose to use my savings of $200 to get something else if this is important to me.
iPhoto is a biggie, but if my camera or scanner doesn’t include nice image editing software, I can get a variety of free choices like Picasa, or Adobe Photoshop album 2 LE, or the Gimp, or IrfanView, etc. I got Ulead PhotoImpact XL for free for instance with a recent web hosting plan. Also got Netobjects Fusion free. Both are offered on Windows only as a promo. Or I can choose to use my savings of $200 to get something else if this is important to me.
Games? The XP system ships with a bunch of free local and online old standbys, but I can then go to the web and download tons of great free games like Wolfenstein Enemy Territory etc. Or I can choose to use my savings of $200 to get something else if this is important to me.
On the PC I can wrap up by getting any or all of these well known free apps (and many more that just can’t fit here):
cute pdf 2.3
google desktop search
realplayer
zone alarm firewall
Sygate Personal Firewall 5
computer associates ez antivirus
winzip or winrar
firefox or maxthon or netcaptor or opera web browsers
abiword 2.2.3
adobe type manager 4.1
burnatonce 0.99.5
GraphCalc 4.0.1
putty
FileZilla 2.2.10
any number of download managers
paint .net
open office 1.1.4
suns java 1.5 and developer tools
solaris 9 (10 soon enough)
over 200 linux distros
I’ve never met a single person that felt cheated by the software selection on a computer they bought. They knew what they were gettting. Many had older software to put on their upgraded rig. Many know how to get lotsa free software from the net. Many become aware of nice apps from talking with friends, family, or co-workers around the breakroom table. So yes the the Mac has nice software, but it isn’t a deal breaker. Works vs. Appleworks? iTunes v WMP? iMovie vs. Windows Movie Maker? The vast majority of users I meet could care less as long as they have a tool to do what they want.
I have some expensive and very powerful PCs and I still choose to use many of the free tools above. They are as good or better than many paid solutions. Sorry, I don’t go for the hype that surrounds iLife. Its a nice set of software on a Mac, but not enough to sway I don’t believe.
2005-01-25 9:43 am
I like apple hardware, but I want only free software, so what ? The ‘mac os X only’ sectarians will throw me stones and send me to a cupertino jail ?
There are many interests in using PPC and Linux. think about freedom of choice, and also free software
2005-01-25 12:44 pm
2005-01-25 1:01 pm
Obviously all of the people here complaining about audio in have no idea about a project code named asteroid being developed by Apple for Garageband.
Nobody has any idea about the project code named asteroid, because it’s just a flippin rumor. Duh.
2005-01-25 2:09 pm
> It’s simple. I like Linux better!
So you are saying you’d pick a Mac mini over an x86 box even though a heap of the hardware is unsupported on PPC Linux, and also you could get a cheaper/more powerfull x86 box for the price? Well there’s some good logic, but hey the Mac mini is smaller so who cares if it works properly or not with Linux.
2005-01-25 2:16 pm
For people wanting to use iChat AV with the Mac Mini, Apple of course recommends it’s own Camera, the Firewire based “iSight”.
From the page for the camera in the Apple Store:
The eyes and ears of iChat AV.
iSight is the incredibly easy to use personal video conferencing camera with integrated microphone that will allow you to have face-to-face conversations with your friends, family and co-workers over the Internet.
We may not like it, but Apple probably decided that since most people who will need audio in, will probably buy an iSight.
2005-01-25 2:23 pm
@Anonymous
Ditto to what risc said…
I’m a Mac Fan, and my post was simply meant to deflect a slam against a Mac Mini because it isn’t meant to be a LinuxPPC Box.
Please read more closely in the future, before opening mouth and inserting foot…
Like so many other PC users comparing computers against Macs in an effort to see which has the best price…
I am a PC AND Mac User (as well as an Amiga User, Atari-ST User, Apple II User, Timex/Sinclair User, Tandy Color Computer User, etc….).
“It is better to remain silent and appear the fool, than to speak and remove all doubt…”
(This seems to be something a LOT of posters here on OSNEWS need to take to heart…)
2005-01-25 3:28 pm
@ChanMan
You’re doing a lot of comparing there…
But you aren’t comparing ‘User Experience’.
The user experience of using the OS and Apps on the Apple Side is SUPERIOR to using the Windows Based Alternatives.
One can say that both AbiWord and Microsoft Word are word processors and they MUST be equivalent because they are both word processors, so then AbiWord must be preferrable because it’s cheaper (free!).
But that doesn’t compare actual day to day usage.
You are missing the point of this article…
It’s not about price. It’s not about hardware specs. It’s not about the number of software titles you include.
It’s about the user experience.
And the Mac just has a better user experience. Period.
I like my Windows Box. It works fine.
My Mac is nicer. It’s smoother. It never gets spyware or viruses. I haven’t had to reload the OS in several years, I just keep upgrading it.
Whereas with Windows XP, I have to reload the box every 3 to 4 months because no matter how much Software I put on it to protect me from Viruses and Spyware… It gets infected with them and my system bogs down to a crawl…
That has NEVER happened with my Mac. And if it does… I can reinstall the OS with all my apps working in under 2 hours.
It takes me 2 days to reconstitute my Windows Box when I reload it…
And even with all the hassle, I still use Windows because there are many things I prefer to do on Windows than on MacOS X. Not many any more… But some.
Comparing prices, CPU Speeds, and bundled software tells NONE of the true story.
You can compare cars by talking about the cylinders in the engine, the included stereo, that they both have seats, windows, etc…
But, it doesn’t tell the story of how it is to drive.
You can mod up a Yugo with all sorts of after-market stuff, and have it be cheaper than a BMW. But, a BMW will still be a better drive.
On a pure technical standpoint, my G4 500 is MUCH slower than my P4 3.2HT.
When I’m using it. The technical slowness doesn’t matter. Because it’s fast enough for what I do, and MacOS X is much more efficient than Windows, and my user experience is just better.
And if I’m this happy with a G4 400 with a 100mhz Bus. I will probably be somewhat happier with the Mac Mini which is MUCH faster.
In fact, I’m SO happy with my G4… The ONLY reason I’m thinking of upgrading is just for the “New and Cool” factor of the Mini.
I’m not at all held back, or hampered by the age of the system.
It surfs fine. Get’s email fine. Plays DVD’s fine. Plays my Music Fine.
While I was spending 2 days reloading my PC two months ago. I used my Mac, with nary a problem.
It’s user experience that matters, not specs…
2005-01-25 4:40 pm
So you are saying you’d pick a Mac mini over an x86 box even though a heap of the hardware is unsupported on PPC Linux, and also you could get a cheaper/more powerfull x86 box for the price? Well there’s some good logic, but hey the Mac mini is smaller so who cares if it works properly or not with Linux.
1) The hardware will work under Linux. It’ll just take a while though. I agree that when one’d like to run Linux on Mac Mini it is better to wait until Linux supports the hardware properly. As a bonus you might be able to get the Mac Mini at a lower price by then. Its a similar situation as with e.g. XBox (v1).
2) The point with x86 is not only raw power; even with that, x86s have other (dis)advantages. I more or less agree though.
3) The size? Well, its not as if the Mac Mini is revolutionary. As a Mac, yes. But embedded machines have existed long time ago. Openbrick, for example. Hardware which incorporates the VIA C3, for example. Among others. I assume those are cheaper than Mac Mini. Depending on what the purpose of this Mac Mini is for one, it depends on what to compare it to but lots and lots of people will NOT buy the Mac Mini primarily because of its ‘size’. I think rather price vs features, with size beeing a reason why it’ll be used for some specific purposes.
2005-01-25 6:55 pm
…you are full of blah-blah… But I bet you a billion dollars that you never used a Mac >=1 GHz for say 6 months in a row running Panther…
Cause if you actually did you would already know that…
…you are full of…
…BS…
2005-01-25 7:08 pm
“It’s user experience that matters, not specs…”
Good point. But it isn’t one or the other. It’s both. It’s many other things as well.
How is the user experience on a Mac burning a cd at 24x versus burning it on a PC at 48x?
How is the user experience on Mac when you want to burn a dual layer dvd and it doesnt do dual layer? Or when you want to be able to burn both + and – discs?
Or how is it for a Mac user that goes shopping and finds stores filled with nothing but Windows software and no Mac software?
Or how is it for the Mac user that goes to buy a peripheral and has to spend hours looking at boxes before they find a “works with Macs or OS X” sticker?
Or how about the Mac user that has problems with compatibility when working with better than 90% of the worlds other computers? Specifically coming from their own work as well?
How is the Mac experience when you go to get an upgraded video card from ATI and find that ATI is selling a slower clocked part with the same model number for more money?
How is the experience when youve been using Mac OS for 10 years and you are faced with the massive UI change to X and all it entails for software and hardware compatiblity?
How is the user experience when you get used to the free itools but then Apple starts selling it as .mac? Or when you are used to the free iApps and then Apple starts selling it as iLife for $49 and then raises the price to $79?
How is it to pay for upgrades and enhancements to the Mac OS every 12-18 months when other platforms provide so much for free?
In other words, the Mac has many very serious question marks about it as a platform too. iLife and OS X are not magic bullets. Have you started to read yet what iPhoto 5 does to your photo library if your iPhoto 4 libray is corrupted (but has been working without any visible problems)? It vaporizes it.
2005-01-25 7:34 pm
Simply stated, my experience of working cross-platform every day, sharing files between XP systems on our corporate domain and my Mac home office system is rather seamless. The only ‘question mark’ for me is why any open-minded Windows-only user wouldn’t take the opportunity to get educated about the Mac side…that’s the ONLY way to obtain an informed opinion. Just about none of what you lay out, Chan, has been any kind of a stumbling block for me. YMMV 🙂
2005-01-25 7:54 pm
How is the user experience on a Mac burning a cd at 24x versus burning it on a PC at 48x?
Longer.
2005-01-25 7:59 pm
@ChanMan
“It’s user experience that matters, not specs…”
Good point. But it isn’t one or the other. It’s both. It’s many other things as well.
How is the user experience on a Mac burning a cd at 24x versus burning it on a PC at 48x?
Not a problem. It’s a little slower, but you can still burn a CD. Most of my friends who own computers not only have NEVER burnt a CD, but don’t even have a burner.
We think because we, who are “Power Users” do certain tasks all the time, that EVERYONE does.
My sister bought a High Falutin Compaq/HP machine with a DVD Burner, and one of those front panel Media Centers (CF Card, Smart Card Reader, etc..), and has NEVER used them. She’s had the computer for nearly a year now.
Strawman.
How is the user experience on Mac when you want to burn a dual layer dvd and it doesnt do dual layer? Or when you want to be able to burn both + and – discs?
Macs DO burn Dual Layer Discs. It’s just a firmware update. Just like PC’s.
Strawman.
Or how is it for a Mac user that goes shopping and finds stores filled with nothing but Windows software and no Mac software?
I dunno. I’ve never had that problem. I know which stores have Mac Software, and I go there.
But like most Mac owners, I buy my software on-line or Mail Order…
You might as well complain about going into an Apple Store and not finding PC Software…
Strawman.
Or how is it for the Mac user that goes to buy a peripheral and has to spend hours looking at boxes before they find a “works with Macs or OS X” sticker?
See above.
Strawman.
Or how about the Mac user that has problems with compatibility when working with better than 90% of the worlds other computers? Specifically coming from their own work as well?
NEVER had this be a problem. Word and Excel for the Mac ALWAYS read my Word and Excel files made on my PC.
And Virtual PC running Windows solves any other problem.
But I rarely have to resort to that.
People having compatibility problems just aren’t using the right software.
That has NOTHING to do with MacOS X. That’s the decisions made by Applications Software Developers, AND the owners who didn’t buy the correct software.
Strawman.
How is the Mac experience when you go to get an upgraded video card from ATI and find that ATI is selling a slower clocked part with the same model number for more money?
I don’t need to keep pumping hardware into my system to make up for the fact that Microsoft keeps making Windows more bloated, and slower with each revision.
On my Mac, it gets faster with each version of MacOS X. My G3 350 is NOTICABLY faster with 10.3.7 than it was with 10.3.4.
Oh, and I DID just upgrade the 16mb ATI card for a 64mb NVIDIA Card. I bought one for $35.00 on eBay. No problem.
Strawman.
How is the experience when youve been using Mac OS for 10 years and you are faced with the massive UI change to X and all it entails for software and hardware compatiblity?
Wonderful. I just transitioned 100 users from MacOS 9 to MacOS X, and they switched with nary a problem…
All their apps worked the same under classic, and when they clicked on a Word Doc, Word for X opened.
They LOVED Word for X, since it had so many more nice features.
Strawman.
How is the user experience when you get used to the free itools but then Apple starts selling it as .mac? Or when you are used to the free iApps and then Apple starts selling it as iLife for $49 and then raises the price to $79?
Not bad. I don’t expect a free ride.
Microsoft did this on the PC side a LOT. Like taking away POP access for Hotmail accounts…
Most users I know don’t use iTools. And the iApps like iLife STILL come bundled free with new computers.
It just doesn’t come inside the boxed version of the OS for upgraders anymore.
Another strawman.
How is it to pay for upgrades and enhancements to the Mac OS every 12-18 months when other platforms provide so much for free?
No different from being a PC user who had to pay nearly $200 to upgrade to Windows XP.
And a lot of my PC friends who had to pay for a technician to repair their systems when XP Service Pack 2 crashed their systems.
Mac OS X Jaguar runs fine. Nobody is FORCING anyone to upgrade…
Strawman.
In other words, the Mac has many very serious question marks about it as a platform too.
Yeah, it seems to be infected with strawmen…
iLife and OS X are not magic bullets.
Who said they were???
That OS X is better than Windows, does NOT make it a Magic Bullet.
Yet ANOTHER strawman you’ve set up here…
Have you started to read yet what iPhoto 5 does to your photo library if your iPhoto 4 libray is corrupted (but has been working without any visible problems)? It vaporizes it.
Nope, not aware of this.
And avoided easily by doing the smart thing… Backing up.
People lose data ALL THE TIME in the PC world, from stuff just as bad…
Like trying to repair a damaged installation of Windows XP, that ends up wiping out their Home Directory…
And having them lose all their documents, email, photos, and music.
I’ve had that happen a few times.
If you think losing data ONLY happens to Mac users using iPhoto, and that THIS makes Macs bad… You are fooling yourself.
Lots of untruths in your post…
I suggest you do the research before spreading myths and untruths.
2005-01-25 8:01 pm
Mac Mini BTO price cuts
Apple this week quietly lowered the price of some of its build-to-order components on the Mac mini, in addition to offering a faster version of its optical SuperDrive, according to MacNN. The changes come just two weeks after the Mac mini was introduced.
The company’s online store is now offering the combination Bluetooth/AirPort Extreme upgrade for $100, a $30 price drop. Separately, the Bluetooth during-purchase option is now available for $50.
Apple has also slashed the mini’s 1GB RAM upgrades from $475 to $325, and is offering a faster 8x SuperDrive (with both DVD+/-RW functionality) for the same $100 upgrade price as its previous 4x SuperDrive. Meanwhile a hard drive upgrade from 40GB to 80GB is now $50, as opposed to $90.
The estimated ship time on BTO and standard configuration Mac minis is now at 3-4 weeks.
http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=854
2005-01-25 9:07 pm
I think chanman has hit the nail on the head for the most part. Very good posts. I especially liked the one examining the design decisions apple made on the mac mini and its obvious that they made these decisions to get something at a particular size and not to reach a rock bottom price.
I must admit I think all of this arguing about a windows PC vs a Mac running OS X is rather pointless. Its a religous debate to some so you are never going to change certain peoples views on the subject.
I think most objective people would agree that if you want the best performance at the best price then a PC is the way to go and if you want a more aesthetically pleasing computer with a (currently) virus and spyware free OS and better bundled software (imovie, idvd) then the mac is the way to go. It all depends on what you willing to pay for.
Personally I might get a mac to replace my lone windows box. My other systems run linux which offers a better bang for the buck than either windows or MacOSX (for my needs).
2005-01-25 9:18 pm
“Lots of untruths in your post…”
Sorry, no untruths, but plenty of opinion, personal experience, and observed experience.
How many Apple stores in China or Brazil or Wyoming?
One now needs to buy Virtual PC to integrate well huh?
Firmware updates now turn Pioneer dvr-104 drives into dual layer + and – burners huh?
Funny you mention not all are power users and then go right on to point out how one can solve problems by knowing where to go to buy software or by buying Virtual PC. That’s just it, the average consumer doesn’t want to pay more for a machine, then have to pay more to buy special software to gain compatibility with the rest of the world. And until youve shopped and learned, one doesn’t readily know where they can buy Mac software and peripherals. The number of retailers that sell Windows oriented gear versus Mac would be better than a 1000 to 1 I would imagine.
My point remains. A Macs software bundle is nice. Its not the be all and end all however. And Macs have a whole host of issues you have to deal with when you go with the platform:
years of no support with satellite internet access is another one a friend of mine was peeved about and just reminded me of.
os x updates that eat firewire drive data.
iphoto updates that eat photos.
large numbers of ibooks with defective motherboards.
lcds with spots and weird pink tints.
To paint Macs and OS X as some fairy tale computing experience is not being objective.
2005-01-26 7:13 am
I recently purchase the Dell in question for my wife. I upgraded the RAM to 512. My Mac mini (512/DVD-R upgrade) arrived in the mail 5 days ago. This is my first Mac and I have to admit, I am quite impressed. The performance comparison between the 2 machines is no contest. The Dell simply can’t compete. If speed, stability and security are important to you, go with the mini – hands down. I have found nothing that I can do with Windows that I can’t do with OS X.
2005-01-26 9:01 pm
Chan, I work for an AASP and I can tell you that you are full of sheet. I know the problems that Macs have and the ones you cited have sound remedies and others I have never even heard of.
2005-01-26 10:08 pm
The performance comparison between the 2 machines is no contest. The Dell simply can’t compete.
How are you comparing ?
2005-01-27 1:30 am
“Chan, I work for an AASP and I can tell you that you are full of sheet. I know the problems that Macs have and the ones you cited have sound remedies and others I have never even heard of.”
Here’s some more sheets then:
it’s a typo:
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/01/26/macminisuperdrive/index.php
“Yesterday it appeared that Apple’s online store was offering Mac mini buyers an 8x SuperDrive build-to-order (BTO) option for the same price as a 4x SuperDrive upgrade previously offered. That upgrade was changed back to 4x today — but the 8x upgrade was nothing more than a typographical error, according to Apple.”
it eats my photos:
http://www.xvsxp.com/articles/050123-iphoto5.php
“My very unpleasant experience upgrading to iPhoto 5
This article is a warning to potential iLife ’05 upgraders and an admonishment to Apple.
If you are upgrading to iLife ’05, REBUILD YOUR IPHOTO LIBRARY FIRST! (Prior to installing iLife 05, hold down command-option-shift and launch iPhoto 4. It will ask if you want to rebuild your library. Say yes.)”
it’s not in stock:
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/01/26/target/index.php
“E-mails to customers indicate that Target.com “can’t offer a definite date” for when the Mac mini will be in stock, and because of this, is no longer making the computer available for order.”
it makes odd noises:
“extensively using hard drive and CPU loading my programs and files, I started to hear a strange whirring sound. It tended to increase in pitch as the processor load increased”
“I looked up on support forums to see if others had problems with their mid-plane and it seems to be a fairly common issue.”
it takes forever to print:
“Pages takes forever to print… A simple one page bullet list with a graphic header (the entire file with the graphic header embedded is 250K) takes 3 minutes to print from a Dual 2.5GHz G5”
Doesn’t make for this great user experience you keep harping on does it? I’ve used Macs for decades and have one sitting in front of me as I type. Macs have as many bugs, quirks, recalls, poor corporate service, delays, etc. as any other platform. Only fan boys or those that don’t know any better live in a fantasy land that allows them to claim otherwise.
is the mini going to run fedora at a good speed?…i’ll get one if the performance is ok
If you visit Kevin Russel’s blog (http://krussell.com/mini/) you can read that the guy ppcnerd.org is reporting about is offering his new Mac mini on eBay just after 48 hours of experimenting with Linux because of the slow hard drive, the massive power supply and the noisy fan.
the dude ran Linux on it… you really think that the software controlled fan system was supported? it most likely is not supported and as such defaults to max blow like my PC laptop does when I have Linux booted up.
Important reading before any of you bitch about price comparisons to a dell:
http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2005/01/miniapplesandorange…
He modified the machine and then complained? Like apple is going to designed to work with Linux. Yeah right. LOL. Mac hardware with Mac software. If he wanted linux, he should have tried something else. For me there are 10 reasons to buy this machine:
1. Size
2. OS X
i have one and its whisper quiet, i cant even hear it unless i put my head right next to it…
Kvein shouldn’t have claimed the grape to be sour when he can’t reach it. Linux cannot get good performance on Apple hardwares because it’s not optimized for it (Especially the Fan noise, I mean linux was never known for the excellence of its software fan noise control and to a broader extent, its power management)
Mac Mini is a good deal because it bundles OSX and other software goodies, if you want linux on Mac, get a PowerMac instead.
I have a mini and I’ve read some of the complaints of the noisy fan. When it’s running full-bore, such as when I’m ripping CD’s or ripping DVD’s, the fan goes on and it is pretty loud. Nothing that drives me nuts, though, as the fan rarely runs and when it does it’s probably not much louder than the fans in my old PC.
I could see if it ran all the time how it would really take the shine off the “coolness” of the system.
Do you have yours already? Nice. Some short feedback please (how is the monster doing). $500 is not pocket change for me, but for this machine (with good feedback), I could do it.
Not that I was expecting anything objective from MACworld, but this article doesn’t really make it’s case. The only REAL difference, if you assume no interal upgrades, is the firewire port, which IS NOT NECCESSARY, even if you own an iPOD. I don’t know how new it is, but Dell is offering a FREE upgrade to 512mb, so I was able to price that system at $449 before a $100 discount. No firewire? So what.
Okay I don’t understand this at all, you can get a slightly larger and a lot more powerfull x86 box for the price, why would you go with a Mac mini? As mentioned in the original article (if you follow a few links) all the hardware doesn’t work – no sound, the fan control system doesn’t work, is 3D even supported? I use both OS X and GNU/Linux and I’ve never understood the Linux on a Mac “vibe” you pay a premium price when you buy Apple hardware and I always assumed this was for using OS X, oh well some people will do anything. I spose I’ll just sit back and watch all the FUD about how bad the Mac mini is now because it’s slow, it has no audio, it’s loud when you use it, and 3D isn’t supported all under Linux of course.
We need to hear from people using the machine right now. People also that it is the first time using Mac. That is the people I would like to hear. They are the ones who can decide if is good or not (No Mac fans, no PC fans (if there is any)).
when the mini was 1st announced i remember this amazing thread about how steve made the most glaring of ommissions by leaving out a line in on the mac mini. I may be reading this wrong, but accoring to pc world, link here:http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119387,00.asp, “It’s interesting that the audio port doubles as both line-in and line-out, meaning that you can bring in audio (such as from a guitar or keyboard, or a turntable or tape player) through the port as well as hooking speakers or headphones to it. If you want to use both headphones and a keyboard, say, you’ll need to spring for something like Griffin Technologies’ IMic, which connects to a USB port.”
So based on that what was all the incessant caterwalling about? The product was barely fresh from the keynote stage and no one had seen let alone, touched the thing, but si passing judgement on it. maybe next time, we wait, properly review and experience, then we can report and and state a well founded opinion.
If you want to get reviews of the Mac mini from people using it try some of the Mac sites:
http://macrumors.com/
http://appleinsiders.com/
http://123macmini.com/
http://macworld.com/
All have reviews of the Mac mini.
While not wanting to get off-topic, I will say the mini is a nice little computer. It feels a bit underpowered, even with 512MB ram. That’s fine for me, I plan to update to a gig in a year or so.
I don’t think the upgrade from the $499 to $599 is really worth it, other than for the drive space. I want to make DVD’s on it, but I think if I had it to do over again I’d just get a firewire drive for video storage.
Getting back to the subject at hand, I have no idea why you’d want to run Linux on the mini other than to say that you did it. Sort of like climbing Mount Everest – there’s no need to do it but people will anyway. Coming from BeOS and someone who uses XP all day for work, it’s been a nice switch and one I’d gladly make again. I’m halfway considering upgrading to a nicer G5 instead of the memory upgrade and passing the mini along to my father. OS X is a *huge* benefit of the mini as all things are so well integrated between iLife and the rest of the system. Why you’d want to switch it to Linux is beyond me, really.
I forgot about the IN/OUT connector. Nobody has said anything about it, after so many complains. I am not an apple fanatic (not even an user), but I have the greatest respect for its designs.
If you want to get reviews of the Mac mini from people using it try some of the Mac sites:
http://macrumors.com/
http://appleinsiders.com/ — that should be http://appleinsider.com/ sorry!
http://123macmini.com/
http://macworld.com/
All have reviews of the Mac mini.
Does anybody know what the transfer times are for a firewire IDE drive compared to a laptop ide harddrive mini / ibook ?
-best
-greg
–
Though Eugenia is no Apple fanatic, it would have been nice if she did not go out of her way to seek out failing points and for each of Apple’s new products and then hone in on them as if that one primary shortcoming that compells her to make this item not worthy of its price as she did in her blog… this despite not having all the facts and later turning out to be wrong.
yes, shes no Apple fanatic, but don’t expect that from her. Rather, next time only to be FAIR and not seek out negatives and hold them up so high.
Thanks risc. I read the reviews, but they seem kind of manipulated, or people with Mac experience. You read things like: “Yeah it is not as good as my power mac, but…” You know what I mean. I would like to read from real America, LOL. People like me that only have used windows or linux. I use OS X, just to send a casual email at school, and guess what the have IE, LOL.
I dont think she made a mistake. She made a comment, just like everybody else, after looking at the pictures. No where in the keynote or in the webpage was any reference to a bidirectional audio port. Who would know that the freaks (in a good way, LOL) at apple will come with something like that?
If you look at the cheepest PC offered by Dell in New Zealand which is a headless Dimensions 3000 (P4 2.8 Ghz, 256 MB memory, DVD/CD-RW Combo Drive, 40GB HD, Integrated Intel(R) Extreme Graphics 2, Includes Works and Norton, no keyboard and mouse) for NZD $1,098 (including tax), whereas a Mac Mini is NZD $971 (including tax).
The Dell has the advantage of a fast P4, but has sucky integrated graphics AND has XP Home, which DOES NOT compare with OSX. You need to add an extra (NZD $120 for XP Pro). The upshot of this comparison is that if I was buying a computer now (I purchased a Dell 2400 6 months ago), I would go for the Mac Mini.
With lots of handholding from the nice people over the Ubuntuforums (waives at Viro), I just got my G3 Pismo set up to dualboot U4.10 and OS X.
Now, I like Ubuntu enough that I’m going to keep it on the Pismo (and I’m going to throw some “pizza money” at TeamUbuntu) but it is *no* OS X.
Speaking for a G3/500 512, I can say:
1)Do not expect some speed advantage. (OS X 10.3 actually boots faster than Ubuntu, and I deal with a fair amount of “ghosting” when I try to move/resize windows)
2)Do not expect a true “sleep”. The monitor will turn off after a certain point, but the drives keep whirring.
3)Fan speed issues … I haven’t had to deal with these (yet), but these are custom chips, so fan speed control support is iffy.
JP, if you recall the thread on the day that the mini was announced, Eugenia pretty much went off on the fact that the Mini had no line in and that line out only was terrible on Apple’s part.
My only issue now, as was then, is all we saw were images and a couple of basic specs, Apple’s own knowledge base articles werent even written about the thing yet, and yet she wrote with so much vigor and an apparent condemnation of a product only hours old?
All im saying is hold on to the poison pen (or keyboard in this day and age) and experience this thing for yourself. Then you can be in the position to make an appropriate and informed opinion/comment regarding the product…I mean would you judge an OS based on seeing screenshots of it? Would you make statements regarding its operation and functionality from screenshots? I mean how many of us see an ad on tv for Hardees and say, ” yeah that burger tastes good… just look at it” and it was only on the screen for 4 seconds, but from those 4 seconds, we can judge taste, texture, and satisfaction…oops…forgot…i live in America, land of the free (free to be foolish)
Here in the states you can get a Dell with a cdrw and dvdrom with a flat screen monitor for 500 dollars, after rebates.
Mac Mini’s are vanity, atleast in my opinion.
While it’s true that you can buy a dell system for less, you’re buying less and so therefore you’re paying less.
The MacWorld link at the beginning of this thread illustrates this fact pretty clearly. If there is any vanity that goes along with getting a mini its just a bonus on top of the already superior cost benefit.
@risc
Okay I don’t understand this at all, you can get a slightly larger and a lot more powerfull x86 box for the price, why would you go with a Mac mini?
I agree with you. I don’t think there’s much point to running Linux on PPC Hardware.
Linux on the X86 and AMD64 Platform is a much better choice for price/performance.
There’s a coolness factor for having a box as small as a Mac Mini, but one could get one of those “CappucinoPC” mini-like machines. They’ve been available for at least two years now, are quite small, and have processors in the same power range as the Mac Mini.
A Mac Mini ought to be bought to run MacOS X.
I say that because, that’s the OS best tuned to the hardware in the box.
If you want to run Linux, put together a nice system with supported components and go…
Like so many other PC users comparing computers against Macs in an effort to see which has the best price, you are selecting the components that are most important to you and leaving off the ones that don’t. This means that you can put the majority of your money into the processor, the graphics card and the hard drive the PRIMARY 3 things that most DIYers think comprise a PC. However, its when you match these computers with the same components, making sure to include the digital in/out the firewire and USB ports, software equivalents to Apple’s iLife (which coincidentally come at least close on Windows (and are practically non existent on Linux… which means also adding the cost of Windows… Pro not Home because OS X compares with Pro) then, you will realize that the PC is at best equally priced, but more often priced higher.
If you’d actually read my post you’d see that I said I don’t know why people would run Linux on a Mac. I actually have 2 Macs, an iBook and a Power Mac Dual G5. Feel free to get defensive but please save it for the people that are actually picking on your OS of choice.
“Here in the states you can get a Dell with a cdrw and dvdrom with a flat screen monitor for 500 dollars, after rebates.
Mac Mini’s are vanity, atleast in my opinion.”
Adam, thats great if you are looking to get a PC but most Mini customers are looking to run MacOSX so I don’t see the point in these comparisons. The Dell PC is huge also so I don’t think people in the market for a tiny computer even by ITX standards so I don’t see them shopping for ATX and micro-ATX boxes.
http://pcnmac.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=158
“Target.com has a 10% coupon (TDWELCME2224), which can be applied toward the Mac mini
40gb model for $50 off
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-3/qid=1106516295/ref=sr_1…
80gb model for $60 off
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-4/qid=1106516295/ref=sr_1…
nice.”
http://wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,66363,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_3
Looks like people are finding all kinds of uses for the mini from servers to car entertainment systems. I know that all of this has been done on the PC side but its interesting the amount of interest its getting from the PC crowd.
Thanx Chan! Your the last person I expected this link from. I’ll wait for the Tiger to be included.thx
“Thanx Chan! Your the last person I expected this link from. I’ll wait for the Tiger to be included.thx”
I have a Mac too, I just think PCs are a better deal and offer more choices and more power for less money is all. But I’m all for helping people find a deal
This is where I am just that tad little disappointed in our friend selling off his shiny new mini after 48 hours.
Knowing that Linux has to be beaten into submission and takes some serious voodoo to tame it, how can it be a surprise that for lack of the fan drivers, the machine is going to make more noise?
How can that be a surprise to someone who is intimately aware about driver issues in a Linux environment?
Also, the spec of the hard disk was known, so claiming its slowness as a reason for selling it off is like selling off your Hummer because, cool car though it is, it doesn’t get many gallons to the mile, does it?
/I’m somewhat less than impressed now.
Also, all you posh PC users, with your outrageously expensive $400 computers… go back to the basics. Put your components into a wooden box [or styrofoam if you live in the city] and be amazed at the fact that you can squeeze off another $7 bucks from the price of your system. We know what the top of your price range is: 40% of the price of a comparable Mac, I’m curious to know what the bottom price is at which you’re going to say : “you can’t get a decent machine for that kind of money”.
I’ve seen the Amiga 2000 at $3000 bucks, and that was kind of steep, and I’ve seen Macs at near to $6000 dollars and that was WAY too much [I’ve never said anything else], but the “$500 bucks is too much” argument… the friends of Redmond can’t get a pro version of Windows legally for that money and the friends of the penguin, whose knowledge and expertise I have genuine respect for, are going to spend a few hours setting up their box. How much do you guys make? Have you finished your work on the system before the counter hits the $500 dollar mark [and then I’m not counting component prices]?
Old argument: I’ve seen the Wall-Mart PC [you really can’t beat that price or you’d have to backstab the Asian worker to steal it off of the belt [and the man has a family too]. Them things is ugly. That doesn’t matter to you, but my Mac sits in my living room. The stuff you get to buy for the $375 PC would make my dog hurl.
If the mini didn’t satisfy him after 48 hours he should have given it away as a cause celebre “the Mac doesn’t serve my needs”. I wouldn’t buy it at the price it was sold at [sans shipping].
Bring on the flames, by all means.
If the tiny size of the mini is not important to you, then you’re almost certainly better off looking for a second hand dual G4 at ca. 800Mhz. You’ll get a machine that will be faster for most things, more flexible and more expandable.
The same really goes for comparing to PCs. If the form factor is a killer feature, then there’s simply no comparable PC at all. However, if the size isn’t of much importance, then you should be able to pickup a PC that’s either cheaper or faster.
Then there’s the software bundle – mostly a matter of taste.
The Macworld article is a bit disingenuous with its comparison, as well. For example:
AirPort Extreme-and Bluetooth-ready
vs
No wireless
The Dell is just as “ready” as the mini – it is also capable of having wifi and bluetooth added, it’s just not shipped by default.
Not to mention the massive disparity in hard disk performance (4200rpm laptop drive vs 7200rpm desktop drive). The PC’s processor – despite being a Celeron – is also going to provide much better performance as well.
I find if I configure a 2400 similarly to the Mini – with a DVD and CDRW drive (no idea why a Combo drive isn’t an option, Dell certainly have them on other machines) and a 1yr warranty the price comes up to $497 – but then there’s apparently a $100 rebate (sorry, I’m form Oz and we don’t get those sort of offers, so I don’t know how they work). This gives a machine with a faster CPU, more RAM (512MB, “free” upgrade), *much* faster hard disk, slower video and a keyboard+mouse.
OTOH, if I up the ante to a Dimension 3000 and keep the hardware similar, only swapping the dual drives for a Combo drive and adding Firewire, I get $577 (with a $50 rebate). This is for a machine with a 2.4Ghz Celeron, 512MB RAM, 40G hard disk, combo drive, firewire, onboard video and keyboard+mouse.
Seems to me with a PC you get more hardware for your $$ and with the Mini you get more software for your $$ and a smaller, cuter case.
I still think the Mini should have been a G5, however.
“$500 bucks is too much” argument… the friends of Redmond can’t get a pro version of Windows legally for that money”
Sorry you are quite wrong:
$490
http://www.ztgroup.com/Default.aspx?tabid=47&productID=10514
Intel® Celeron® Processor 2.80GHz (533FSB)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional Edition w/Service Pack 2
256MB DDR SDRAM at 400MHz
Seagate® 80GB Ultra ATA/100 7200rpm Hard Drive
Built-in Video (64MB)
52x/32x/52x EIDE CD-RW Drive
Built-in 6-Channel Audio
Built-In 10/100 Lan
Micro-ATX Tower Chassis w/350Watt Power Supply by Foxxconn
Logitech® Internet Keyboard & Optical Mouse
2-Piece Amplified Stereo Speaker Set
Microsoft® Works 7.0
3 Year Limited Warranty
“I have a Mac too, I just think PCs are a better deal and offer more choices and more power for less money is all. But I’m all for helping people find a deal
”
I have a Mac and PC too. Macs are great but they are not for everybody. If they can make a Mac with a video card combo that will give me decent framerates in MOHAA and Quake then I will buy it. Until then I am sticking to “low” end Macs like the Mini and my current dual G4.
“Does anybody know what the transfer times are for a firewire IDE drive compared to a laptop ide harddrive mini / ibook ?
-best
-greg”
a decent 8 MB cache 7200 rpm ulta ata 100 hard drive in a firewire case will be restricted by the firewire bus speed of 400 mbits per second or 50 MB per second.
The drive that ships in the mac mini is an ata 100 4200 rpm drive that can move data at best at 100 MB per second. So though a slower rpm drive, it does have a peak data transfer of 2x as much. I don’t know what cache the mini’s hard drive has but I wouldnt be surprised if it is just 2MB.
Peaks transfer speeds are of course not what you will get in the real world for either setup. But with the higher rpm and larger cache the external firewire likely helps with seek times.
What I will do when I get my Mini is run the OS in target disk mode so I won’t have to deal with the laptopish transfer disk speeds of the Mini.
I knew you’d be out there somewhere
That proves me wrong then. I have been assembling a super cheap PC myself and the list price of Win XP Pro was $185, which I thought was quite expensive, hence.
Of course, it’ll depend on the OEM deal the company has with Redmond.
But, it’s $490, a whole 10-spot shy of $500, no contest.
Here’s an honest question: how much can you shave off of that price and still have a system that you’d want to use? When has the rock actually hit the bottom for you [no sarcasm, genuine intrest]?
target disk mode is booting off of an external firewire, right? I wonder which is faster.
I think I’m just going to put one of those Toshiba 80GB 5400rpm 16MB cache babies in my mini, once I get my grubby paws on it.. (have to wait until my birthday
“I knew you’d be out there somewhere
That proves me wrong then. I have been assembling a super cheap PC myself and the list price of Win XP Pro was $185, which I thought was quite expensive, hence.
Of course, it’ll depend on the OEM deal the company has with Redmond.
But, it’s $490, a whole 10-spot shy of $500, no contest.
Here’s an honest question: how much can you shave off of that price and still have a system that you’d want to use? When has the rock actually hit the bottom for you [no sarcasm, genuine intrest]?”
I dont own any super budget PCs myself but I know dozens of friends, family, and clients that do. For a large percentage of the computing world, a $329 PC with XP home suffices for doing the most basic tasks: email, web browsing, photo viewing and printing, document creation and printing, basic finances, spreadsheet work, database access, etc. If on a domain, toss XP Pro on to the cheap rig for the typical additional $80.
Its great that Apple is now offering a better budget choice for those that don’t need a $800 to $1900 consumer oriented machine.
“I have been assembling a super cheap PC myself and the list price of Win XP Pro was $185, which I thought was quite expensive”
Shop harder.
Here is XP Pro sorta in Media Center 2005 flavor for $119
http://store.yahoo.com/directron/xpmedia.html (MCE is XP Pro minus domain specific features, though that can quite easily be fixed http://pcnmac.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=96&highlight=domain )
XP Pro from $125
http://froogle.google.com“ rel=”nofollow”>http://www.e-chipsoftware.com/product?id=405&ref=