On the 25th IBM released beta compilers for Mac OSX, there is both a c/c++ and a fortran compiler, these compilers is for use with the G5/PPC970 processor. Elsewhere, on a TechNewsWorld review it is stated that “while decidedly Apple, Xserve puts to shame many of the Linux distributions available by tying together the diverse number of applications that are needed to administer an equivalent Linux server into a simple, GUI-driven interface.”
IBM XL beta compilers for Mac; Apple XServe/OSX-Server Review
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Netinfo would be the most disapointing feature I
found, requiring users to specify the tags and values
without documenting what those tags and values might be.
Give me back a .options file and a man page.
Believe me, if a person can’t administrate a server without fancy GUI to guide him through, really, he shouldn’t be an server adminsitrator. Linux doesn’t need the GUI OS X has for the server market – how many web server admins do you know, not counting those semi-operational always-down home webservers which don’t make much money in the first place, need Mac OS X kinda GUI?
Then there is database servers – which OS X provides no relief (OS X has a GUI frontend for Oracle/db2/PeopleSoft/etc.?). In fact, the only market I can think of is file servers. But then again, who would want to buy a XServe, or any other rackmount for that matter, unless they are a heavy user (big corporations, large orgs), which in that case wouldn’t even consider OS X.
Yes, there is a market for OS X Server, but I doubt it is all that big…
Anyone have any idea of how IBM’s complier compares performance wise to GCC?
I’ve been trying to access them but can’t. Is Objective-c and Objective-C++ supported by the compiler ?
Ludovic
—
http://perso.hirlimann.net/~ludo/blog/
Believe me, if a person can’t administrate a server without fancy GUI to guide him through, really, he shouldn’t be an server adminsitrator.
I have to agree 110%. Administrering a server is just as easily done through a command shell rather than through a GUI. One would think that Apple would have learned a lesson or two from the Windows Server world i.e. it is not the ease of setting up a server that makes a secure server it is the knowledge-level of the server admin (this is far too often true of Linux admins too, just check the amount of defaced sites that run Linux)!
I do think the only market for XServe is in education i.e. a small school wants/needs a server and the a guy (or gal) know just enough of computing to set up an XServe i the school network rack where they have a little bit of extra space.
Don’t say it is for external storage and I’ll start to cry at how stupid that idea is.
simple, GUI-driven interface
Solaris has the management console, AIX has smitty, Linux has webmin (and others.) If that is their big advantage they’re in real trouble 🙂
“I do think the only market for XServe is in education i.e. a small school wants/needs a server and the a guy (or gal) know just enough of computing to set up an XServe i the school network rack where they have a little bit of extra space.”‘
Don’t forget the SOHO market as well.
“I have to agree 110%. Administrering a server is just as easily done through a command shell rather than through a GUI. One would think that Apple would have learned a lesson or two from the Windows Server world i.e. it is not the ease of setting up a server that makes a secure server it is the knowledge-level of the server admin (this is far too often true of Linux admins too, just check the amount of defaced sites that run Linux)! ”
True, however the software can at least meet it’s user halfway, through careful design.
I like that it supports diversity, but what has Linux done that is shameful. And is that XL a US size or an Asian size. I need at least an XXL to fit me.
MacOSX Server has a command shell so I don’t see what is the point that is being made by some people. Has anyone even installed Windows 2003 Server? There are wizards to to setup the server! Why is it so bad that Apple provide an easy to use GUI to do admin work yet when Microsoft or Linux does it, its the best thing in the world?
There really is a double standard here and guys like Rajan are just pure haters of everything Apple despite the positive press that they receive.
MacOSX Server having a great admin GUI is an advantage because it makes it possible for these server to be deployed by non admin types or shops that can’t afford an admin.
In graphic design shops the server admin usually is a prepress specialist and/or designer.
Why would a graphic designer need an MCSE?
Just because something is simple doesn’t make it bad not everyone is a computer geek.
Business Guy: “My email isn’t working any more!”
Colleague: “Oh crap, Tech Guy is on holiday…”
Business Guy phones Tech Guy
Business Guy: “Help, our email is bust!”
Tech Guy: “Sorry bud, can’t fix it, you made me get that GUI driven XServer. Had we stuck with that ‘complicated’ CLI server I could have fixed the problem from here – the other side of the planet! Anyway… back to my holiday.” Click
Business Guy: “Noooooooooooooooo!!!”
“One would think that Apple would have learned a lesson or two from the Windows Server world i.e. it is not the ease of setting up a server that makes a secure server it is the knowledge-level of the server admin”
I hope Apple takes NO lessons from the Windows Server or OS world regarding security. Do Windows users really need to be bragging about security?
Not everyone is a security expert but is it so bad that a newly installed server with the current updates is secure right out of the box? What is so bad about that?
…sounds to me like some Tech guys are worried about their jobs.
Mac OS X on commandline – what exactly is its advantage over Linux? Nothing? Yeah, that’s more like it.
MacOSX Server supports SSH connections.
Has anyone commenting here even deployed a MacOSX Server? You can’t even run Windows Servers without the GUI.
Well, Mac OS X supports Telnet….
I’ve been trying to access them but can’t. Is Objective-c and Objective-C++ supported by the compiler ?
I don’t know – but if the don’t, this compiler would be fairly useless on OS X
“Mac OS X on commandline – what exactly is its advantage over Linux? Nothing? Yeah, that’s more like it.”
Hey Rajan I have a feeling that you didn’t even read the article. Your just filled to the brim with hate.
Here is the link, read it again
http://www.technewsworld.com/perl/story/31432.html
Here is a quote from the article…
“Xserve puts to shame many of the Linux distributions available by tying together the diverse number of applications that are needed to administer an equivalent Linux server into a simple, GUI-driven interface.”
For a guy who hates Macs you really love to comment on them. You comment on almost no other articles besides Mac articles. Why are you such a hater?
Mac OS X has a command shell, tcsh was the default shell in Jaguar, I believe bash is to become the default in Panther in recognition of its dominance in the Linux world. You can ssh in and do what you like. You don’t need to go near the GUI if don’t want to to the best of my knowledge
Hey Rajan I have a feeling that you didn’t even read the article. Your just filled to the brim with hate.
Here is the link, read it again:
I have read it, thank you very much, before even my first comment. Perhaps you would like to read all the comments in proper order before you comment on mine?
Chreo: I have to agree 110%. Administrering a server is just as easily done through a command shell rather than through a GUI.
You: MacOSX Server has a command shell so I don’t see what is the point that is being made by some people.
Me: Mac OS X on commandline – what exactly is its advantage over Linux? Nothing? Yeah, that’s more like it.
Your remarks about me is completely untrue. I have nothing against Apple. I have everything against irrational Mac fanboys like you. My point was that there wasn’t much of a big market for OS X Server, and Linux isn’t market to steal from. Then you go on and say that graphics designers don’t need an MSCE. But then again, I have never been to a design house which have a server of its own without an admin.
I don’t have much time, so I only respond to stupid or incorrect comments from, normally, non-trollish individually, and wonders of wonders, that happens to be in Mac threads only pro-Mac comments. I don’t really bother to reply to baseless anti-Mac comments because I know there would be a horde waiting to do so.
But point me to one incorrect (based on facts, not opinions) recent comment I have made that I haven’t apologized for?
I have some experience in working with an XServe for a small business (www.doxx.nl). In my opinion, the GUI, together with Apple’s documentation, makes basic server setup and user management etc. very easy. Furthermore, I have done full customization in the form of a custom htdig installation on this XServe machine (yes, from cli using vi.) I even did some work on it via a remote ssh connection.
I think this shows the power of a good GUI combined with standard unix cli access.
i wish linux had something like that. oh true, redhat/suse/etc, gives all sorts of gui configuration tools. but i want something totally integrated. without having to open 5 different apps to do what i want to do with my mouse. this is probably why i still do most of my configs through vi. i like editting low level configurations. but please give me something easy to use, so that i can setup a server for a client in about 30 minutes, and leave them.
feature i’d really like… an all-in-one gui for linux (example, redhat), that i can edit all my configurations in (firewall, web server, ftp, etc.), then export all the settings into one giant text file. that way i can import those settings into others. basically a template for me to use for all my different clients. i’d have all security settings, etc. set up ready to go.
fortran
It’s time to break out the punch cards.
I won’t get into the whole CLI/GUI argument, but I will say this: if you’ve got a lot of Mac client machines, OS X server kicks ass. Setting up LDAP, file & print quotas, and configuring clients is a total snap.
As for remote management, clearly, there’s some misunderstandings in this thread. Not only does MacOS X support SSH (both client and server) but the Workgroup Manager and Server Settings tools that come with OS X server work by attaching to an IP address. So, even if you’re 6000 miles away from your server, you can manage users and server settings – with the GUI tools – just as well as if you were sitting at the machine. And if you need to SSH in? Fine, that works great also. *ALL* the server GUI tools attach to an IP address, so as long as you’ve got those tools, you can do pretty much anything.
The only drawback, of course, is that you need to be at an Apple machine to use them.
I’m not a Mac “fanboy” – my computing platform of choice is x86. But I deal with OS X client and Server on a daily basis, and it really is pretty damn nifty.
Normally I am decidedly a FreeBSD/CLI user, but I recently had the chance to work with an XServe, for a website owner who wants to run a fairly large, conplex website, combined with virtualhosting of other websites.
My First impression was that Mac has done something very slick. The machine itself is quite impressive. The GUI is nice, and for anyone who doesn’t want the GUI, the command-line terminal is a click away. Of course, I immediately dived for the terminal.
However, after spending several days trying to configure some things that are remarkably straightforward on a typical Linux or FreeBSD machine, here are my impressions:
1. yes, the GUI makes simple, plain-vanilla stuff… well… simple. Unfortunately it makes the complicated stuff way more complicated. In fact, much of the “serious” stuff still cannot be done with the GUI, such as settng up sendmail (a 5-minute job on FreeBSD, a 5-hour job on OS X).
2. It’s not just the GUI, but the fact that Mac has chosen so many non-standard ways to do things. It may be based on Unix, but Unix it ain’t. This configuration file is overridden by that, that configuration file is ignored, etc…
3. NetInfo is a pain. plainly. In fact, apparently they are scrapping it soon.
4. Yes, you can do almost everything from the command line, so remote administration is possible. But, Apple doesn’t provide direct support for anyone editing configuration files by hand. This is what I was told by Mac tech support :-(.
5. Also, you can easily run the GUI remotely, with Timbuktu. Whoever said some comment about being unable to administrate OS X remotely has no idea. You can get full command-line and full GUI remotely and it is quite nice. Here, I give Mac kudos. Of course, once again, you can do this with any Unix that has X installedc.
6. Performance is impressive on these machines. Of course, that also comes with some pain, since Apache now has a two-level server system (the standard webserver is “internal” and is then passed through the “external” caching server using port 16080). The Apache configuration files are broken up in minimally 3 places now.
So, in the end I have to say that I wish he had gone with a standard FreeBSD server. The owner had this idea that he would be able to manage everything from the GUI, and deploy a complex PHP application. In reality, there is just too much tweaking needed for that. XServe gets you halfway there with presets, GUI, etc… but it’s a pain to get the rest of the way by CLI. Now that I am familiar with the roadbumps, I can deploy and XServe in a reasonable time, but nowhere near as fast as a FreeBSD system. Nice machine, though.
Well, Mac OS X supports Telnet….
Are you stuck in 1960? Use SSH!
“Your remarks about me is completely untrue. I have nothing against Apple. I have everything against irrational Mac fanboys like you.”
I take back the hater comment but maybe can you see why I thought that to be true? Fanboy I will admit to but I also use XP on an Athlon that I like very much. What have I said was irrational?
“My point was that there wasn’t much of a big market for OS X Server, and Linux isn’t market to steal from.”
Point taken. Apple is not going to eat Linux’s or Windows lunch but there are people out there that are considering or using Mac server that would never had deployed them in the past. The Federal government has added MacOSX and Linux as supported platforms under the Technical Reference Model. This bodes well for both platforms and shows that MacOSX/Server is being used in non-traditional markets.
http://gcn.com/vol1_no1/daily-updates/23302-1.html
You really come down hard on an OS that pleases the techie and non-techie. What is so bad about a server that is easy to admin regardless of the experience of the admin?
I admin a MacOSX Server and my backup when I am out of town is the HP/UX admin. He hates the GUI and finds it cumbersome(MacOSX Server 10.1.4), but he finds no fault with it for having good GUI tools for admins with less experience.
3. NetInfo is a pain. plainly. In fact, apparently they are scrapping it soon.
No they are not scrapping it, they are improving it’s performance and scalability.
If you prefer those configuration files, just enable the BSD Configuration plugin for NetInfo. IMO Netinfo is nicer than the classic way of spreading it into several files in /etc, all with their own specific syntax, and lack of a generic tools around it.
Believe me, if a person can’t administrate a server without fancy GUI to guide him through, really, he shouldn’t be an server adminsitrator.
Why does one need to feel elite by belittling other people? If I hold a degree in information technology, which is a *VERY* generalised degree, why then should *I* need to spend another year simply to learn how to use a tool so that I can put what I know into practice?
For example, if I want to setup a firewall and I know already what ports I need to block etc, why then should *I* need to know the specifics of that product just to adquately use the features in it.
Now sure, there are MCSE’s who know diddly squat but know how to use Windows, however, there are a large number of people have done the time, laid the ground work at university so why then should they shell out another AUS$11,000 for a MCSE just so he/she can setup a network with adequate security, stability and scalability?
Linux doesn’t need the GUI OS X has for the server market – how many web server admins do you know, not counting those semi-operational always-down home webservers which don’t make much money in the first place, need Mac OS X kinda GUI?
How many Linux servers are cracked into per year because they have been setup incorrectly? had there been an easier, more efficient way to setup a server, wouldn’t these cracks simply not occur, and if they did, it would be due security holes in the software.
On a standard MacOS 10.2.6 setup, there are no servers running and a firewall is setup by default. On the server, same situation. MacOS X is setup like Windows 2003, no servers running by the default thus leaving the administrator to manually start *ONLY* the servers he/she requires.
How many Linux distributions out there have almost every thing running by default? Just look at Redhat Linux as one example. Why does one need sendmail/postfix on a desktop machine? IIRC, just until recently BIND automatically was setup by default to run at start up.
Regarding administrators, good ones are hard to find. I really don’t care for you elitest rubbish. The fact remains that most small businesses do not have the time or the money to decipher how to disable services, trying to install RPM’s without the computer puking or how to setup services without the need to purchase book explaining the intricut details of how DNS works.
I’ve worked with some of these companies and ultimately they make their decisions. Most are barely srapping by and buying a server and desktop setup is very expensive, how on earth do you then expect them to pay a full time admin or a contractor at AUS$95 to maintain their setup?
Then there is database servers – which OS X provides no relief (OS X has a GUI frontend for Oracle/db2/PeopleSoft/etc.?). In fact, the only market I can think of is file servers. But then again, who would want to buy a XServe, or any other rackmount for that matter, unless they are a heavy user (big corporations, large orgs), which in that case wouldn’t even consider OS X.
Front end to for a database can be provided via 4D 2003 which runs on MacOS X. The latest version of it is very stable and functional. It has a different feel to it, however, once one is use to its unique model, one can just as productive with it as one could be with Paradox or Access.
If worse comes to worse, you could simply download one of the GTK front ends, compile it against GTK/X11 and run it via that method.
MacOSX Server has a command shell so I don’t see what is the point that is being made by some people. Has anyone even installed Windows 2003 Server? There are wizards to to setup the server!
You read like I just don’t know what.
MacOSX Server having a great admin GUI is an advantage because it makes it possible for these server to be deployed by non admin types or shops that can’t afford an admin.
Ergo you get insecure servers as people that have no idea of what they are doing fiddles around with smb, apache servers etc just because the GUI makes it seem so easy. Samba and Apache are very capable servers but if you are not careful it is easy to make them insecure
In graphic design shops the server admin usually is a prepress specialist and/or designer.
Now why do I hear the eerie tune in the back of my head
Why would a graphic designer need an MCSE?
Since when is an MCSE required for server setups?! An MCSE can only handle the Windows environment which is bad.
I hope Apple takes NO lessons from the Windows Server or OS world regarding security. Do Windows users really need to be bragging about security?
So Apple should potentially make all the same mistakes that MS have done?! Going all GUI on a server is bad. Going all easy wisards. You need knowledge to admin a server not a MCSE. I happend to actually think that a GUI is a bad idea for servers as that raises the level of knowledge to set up a server regardless if it is a Windows, Linux or Mac server.
MacOSX Server supports SSH connections.
Never said it didn’t!
Has anyone commenting here even deployed a MacOSX Server? You can’t even run Windows Servers without the GUI.
MacOSX Server having a great admin GUI is an advantage because it makes it possible for these server to be deployed by non admin types or shops that can’t afford an admin.
Looking at the pricetag of a xserve that shop you mention will as well be unable to buy an xserve if they are unable to hire an admin.
It would seem they would rather not have their own server but go to some hosting company.
I take back the hater comment but maybe can you see why I thought that to be true? Fanboy I will admit to but I also use XP on an Athlon that I like very much. What have I said was irrational?
The fact thta you attacked me two times without actually taking any efforts to see in what context my comments were made?
You really come down hard on an OS that pleases the techie and non-techie. What is so bad about a server that is easy to admin regardless of the experience of the admin?
If Mac OS X floats your boat, so be it. But it surely doesn’t match Linux, which <flamebait suit on> isn’t all that great a server OS. My point is that if you are a techie, you are better off using Linux (or freeBSD, etc.) even on that XServe rather than OS X Server as it is faster, more stable, and depending on the distribution/OS, more secure.
If you are a non-techie, I wouldn’t recommend administrating a server, no less buying an expensive server.
but he finds no fault with it for having good GUI tools for admins with less experience.
Frankly, no offence, if I had a company, I wouldn’t hire someone who isn’t fully experience. I wouldn’t hire off the street MSCE grads or any others with similar qualifications. If Mac OS X suits you, fine go ahead and use it. It is after all your (or rather, your boss’) choice.
But I was just disagreeing with the article sentiment that OS X is better than Linux simply because it has cool GUI tools.
Business Guy: “My email isn’t working any more!”
Colleague: “Oh crap, Tech Guy is on holiday…”
Business Guy phones Tech Guy
Business Guy: “Help, our email is bust!”
Tech Guy: “No, problem I can remotely administer your server via the GUI (DUH!), I’ll fix it from my TiBook here on the other side of the world” Click
Business Guy: “Awesome!!!”
I’m administering two servers one of them is running OS X server (fileserver AFP/SMB/FTP) and the other one just plain OS X (BIND, Apache, CG Pro for mail). OS X Server is easily and securley remotely administrable via the GUI and CG Pro can be setup via a webbrowser, for the rest ssh is just fine. I don’t see your problem.
For a lot of reasons, including storage:
* Loading a server image during setup (especially cluster XServer’s).
* Transferring large amounts of data fast (instead of over the network)
* FireWire IP networking.
* Video/Audio streaming server. (QuickTime Streaming Server)
I think you’ll find that Apple is rapidly moving to LDAP sooner-than-later.
http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/opendirectory.html
Okay, I wrote this once, Opera crashed, took it with me, so I’m writing this again.
Why does one need to feel elite by belittling other people? If I hold a degree in information technology, which is a *VERY* generalised degree, why then should *I* need to spend another year simply to learn how to use a tool so that I can put what I know into practice?
Did you read the fucking article? You did? Then get a clue. My comment was in response to that article, understand? if people can afford a $2,700-$11,000 server, I’m very well sure they should at least try to learn the basics of the apps they use. Which isn’t all that hard to learn you just need to put in effort.
so why then should they shell out another AUS$11,000 for a MCSE just so he/she can setup a network with adequate security, stability and scalability?
It is that expensive? I could do the course here at a fraction of that cost – the most expensive part is the exam fees.
How many Linux servers are cracked into per year because they have been setup incorrectly?
If they can’t setup a Linux server, I don’t think so they can run in order to be cracked up. But how many of that cracked up Linux servers use a $3,000-$11,000?
On a standard MacOS 10.2.6 setup, there are no servers running and a firewall is setup by default. On the server, same situation. MacOS X is setup like Windows 2003, no servers running by the default thus leaving the administrator to manually start *ONLY* the servers he/she requires.
If you get a $3000-$11000 server, I’m extremely sure you would know how to shut down services and the like on Linux, or if you don’t you are really just wasting money. And I wasn’t saying Linux distributions are perfect. In fact, I think completely otherwise, except a few odd ones, most notably Debian.
Just look at Redhat Linux as one example.
You must really don’t know me: I loathe Red Hat. But that is besides the point. How does this relate to my comment under the scope of the article?
Regarding administrators, good ones are hard to find.
And companies who can afford such expensive servers for sure can find one of those hard to find good admins.
I really don’t care for you elitest rubbish.
And I don’t really care for you ignorant, irrational, biased, bigotted rubbish you spew.
The fact remains that most small businesses do not have the time or the money to decipher how to disable services, trying to install RPM’s without the computer puking or how to setup services without the need to purchase book explaining the intricut details of how DNS works.
How many SMALL BUSINESSES can afford a $3000-$11000 SERVER?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
how on earth do you then expect them to pay a full time admin or a contractor at AUS$95 to maintain their setup?
I would expect them to hire that kind of contractors if they buy such a expensive server.
If worse comes to worse, you could simply download one of the GTK front ends, compile it against GTK/X11 and run it via that method.
Again, the “review” of XServe whose link is right up there is about OS X’s advantages over Linux. And the last I check, you can run GTK+ apps on Linux, which was the case since GTK was created.
Of all the posts you have made, CooCooCaChoo , this is the worst.
Business Guy: “My email isn’t working any more!”
Colleague: “Oh crap, Tech Guy is on holiday…”
Business Guy phones Tech Guy
Business Guy: “Help, our email is bust!”
Tech Guy: “I’m on vacation! Can’t you have the backup Tech Guy take care of it?”
Business Guy: “We were too cheap to hire one. Can you do it pleeeeeeese? ”
Tech Guy: “Well, my salary needs to be reviewed…”
Business Guy: “OK. We’ll talk about your salary when you get back.”
Tech Guy: “OK. It’ll take me about a half-hour to trudge back to the hotel and login via the Server Admin or via SSH to investigate and fix the problem.”
Business Guy: “I have no idea what you just said, but OK. Thanks for being such a team player.”
::click::
Tech Guy:: ::mutters to himself:: That clueless ass.
Todd, so true… so true 🙂
[i]Believe me, if a person can’t administrate a server without fancy GUI to guide him through, really, he shouldn’t be an server adminsitrator.
Why does one need to feel elite by belittling other people? If I hold a degree in information technology, which is a *VERY* generalised degree, why then should *I* need to spend another year simply to learn how to use a tool so that I can put what I know into practice?[i]
I have to say I agree that server admins should know moe than just a GUI. Do I think it is belittling? No. I don’t want people with little to no skills i car repair to fix my car either. Why do you think so many Windows servers were infected with Code Red despite the fact that the patch had been available long before the virus came?
” And companies who can afford such expensive servers for sure can find one of those hard to find good admins.”
First off, Apple has always charged a premium for a better product. Price is one of the oldest arguments surrounding Apple, and one which I’m not sure why hasn’t died yet. Yes, it costs more, but the support and total cost of ownership (perhaps that phrase sounds familiar) is lower because there are fewer hassles to deal with, thus fewer calls to tech support. If a small business can muster up $11k to buy an Xserve, they won’t need someone over-qualified and over-priced to run it.
Also, and I could be wrong because I don’t use OS X Server, but I’m fairly certain that one can remotely log into a computer (NetBoot) as opposed to SSH (the *choice* is there, and note I’m not advocating one or the other…).
“Why does one need to feel elite by belittling other people? If I hold a degree in information technology, which is a *VERY* generalised degree, why then should *I* need to spend another year simply to learn how to use a tool so that I can put what I know into practice? ”
Did you read the fucking article? You did? Then get a clue. My comment was in response to that article, understand? if people can afford a $2,700-$11,000 server, I’m very well sure they should at least try to learn the basics of the apps they use. Which isn’t all that hard to learn you just need to put in effort.
Is there any need to swear? get all emotional about a collction of 0’s and 1’s? Please, get things into perspective.
Secondly, we are talking about the same people who don’t want to learn how to use Linux as a desktop, yet, you suddenly want them to administrate a server? Please Rajan, move into reality. The reality is, people are lazy and they want to do the minimum amount of work possible.
People don’t care that they could learn, ultimately, they’ll rather spend the extra $’s and get a solution which is easier to setup and without all the techno jargon that they may need to learn.
“so why then should they shell out another AUS$11,000 for a MCSE just so he/she can setup a network with adequate security, stability and scalability?”
It is that expensive? I could do the course here at a fraction of that cost – the most expensive part is the exam fees.
What is the point of doing all the hardwork when have no proof that you are capable of doing what you say? I’ve seen many managers, be it a good or bad idea, turn down applications simply because they don’t have a piece of paper.
“How many Linux servers are cracked into per year because they have been setup incorrectly?”
If they can’t setup a Linux server, I don’t think so they can run in order to be cracked up. But how many of that cracked up Linux servers use a $3,000-$11,000?
I don’t understand what you are trying to tell me. Are you saying that some how, by buying an US$3,000-US$11,000 server, loaded with Linux, it should be adequately locked down? isn’t this the famous last words of the user who bought a machine pre-loaded with Windows Server?
“On a standard MacOS 10.2.6 setup, there are no servers running and a firewall is setup by default. On the server, same situation. MacOS X is setup like Windows 2003, no servers running by the default thus leaving the administrator to manually start *ONLY* the servers he/she requires. ”
If you get a $3000-$11000 server, I’m extremely sure you would know how to shut down services and the like on Linux, or if you don’t you are really just wasting money. And I wasn’t saying Linux distributions are perfect. In fact, I think completely otherwise, except a few odd ones, most notably Debian.
How is a US$3000-$11000 price tag relevant to shutting down services? again, the server is designed with simplicity in mind. When people PAY for Apple software and hardware, that is what they receive. The consumer wants minimum fuss.
“Just look at Redhat Linux as one example.”
You must really don’t know me: I loathe Red Hat. But that is besides the point. How does this relate to my comment under the scope of the article?
You bought up Linux, I am simply stating what the current Linux situation is versus what the situation is with MacOS X.
“Regarding administrators, good ones are hard to find.”
And companies who can afford such expensive servers for sure can find one of those hard to find good admins.
How is:
A$Â 5,795.00
1.33GHz PowerPC G4
2MB L3 cache
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
60GB ATA/133 ADM
Mac OS X Server (Unlimited client)
Dual Gigabit Ethernet
CD-ROM drive
ATI graphics card with VGA
http://store.apple.com/133-622/WebObjects/australiastore?family=Xse…
Considered expensive?
“I really don’t care for you elitest rubbish.”
And I don’t really care for you ignorant, irrational, biased, bigotted rubbish you spew.
Yet you state:
“Believe me, if a person can’t administrate a server without fancy GUI to guide him through, really, he shouldn’t be an server adminsitrator.”
“The fact remains that most small businesses do not have the time or the money to decipher how to disable services, trying to install RPM’s without the computer puking or how to setup services without the need to purchase book explaining the intricut details of how DNS works. ”
How many SMALL BUSINESSES can afford a $3000-$11000 SERVER?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
How is having multiple ? and ! going to improve you argument? The fact remains, the price quoted in a previous section of this post is VERY reasonable when considering that one COULD purchase a Linux server, however, one would then have to get someone to come in and set it up. Lets say you update you Windows PC’s to the latest service pack and find that it breaks compatibility with Samba? more work required.
Lets say you buy a Wintel server, great, the server is cheap but how about the price per-seat? how many small businesses do you know that understand software licensing?
IBM AIX xlc/xlC compilers don’t support the Objective-C
on IBM pSeries ( formerly known as the RS/6000 ).
Even the gcc as far as I know does not support Objective-C
on them as well.
As for the quality of IBM’s cc/xlC compilers,
I’ve heard that the code is often higher than generated
by gcc. More compact as well.
But gcc is free and open source while IBM xlc compilers
are much more expensive ( range: $2,000 USD )
Wow
Rajan: Believe me, if a person can’t administrate a server without fancy GUI to guide him through, really, he shouldn’t be an server adminsitrator.
CooCooCaChoo: Why does one need to feel elite by belittling other people? If I hold a degree in information technology, which is a *VERY* generalised degree, why then should *I* need to spend another year simply to learn how to use a tool so that I can put what I know into practice?
Chreo: I have to say I agree that server admins should know moe than just a GUI. Do I think it is belittling? No. I don’t want people with little to no skills i car repair to fix my car either. Why do you think so many Windows servers were infected with Code Red despite the fact that the patch had been available long before the virus came?
1) Code Red was not caused by a lack of skills but by lazy administrators who do not install patches when they are made available. It is pretty simply stuf, log onto windowsupdate.microsoft.com once a day, download any patches and voila, everything is humming.
2) I am not saying people shouldn’t have any skills, what I am saying is this, if I know the basic fundamentals of doing something why then should I need to try and decipher how to navigate a tool? MacOS X does a pretty good job with its system preferences. Windows, unfortunately assumes the administrator is a complete moron and also assumes that the default is always right.
If the tools are setup correctly, and the person has the knowledge, the person should be able to put their knowledge into action immediately.
For example, I want to share a file:
System Preferences -> Sharing -> (Select File Sharing Type) -> Click on Start
In terms of setting up TCP/IP, it couldn’t be simplier. Microsoft *COULD* do that, but that would end up throwing alway their pro-wizard stance they’ve been pushing for years.
I just have to say this,
PEOPLESOFT SUCKS!!!!!!!
(sorry I have to put up with them at work)
Secondly, we are talking about the same people who don’t want to learn how to use Linux as a desktop, yet, you suddenly want them to administrate a server? Please Rajan, move into reality. The reality is, people are lazy and they want to do the minimum amount of work possible.
Maybe you, as a owner of some business, loves lazy people. I don’t.
What is the point of doing all the hardwork when have no proof that you are capable of doing what you say? I’ve seen many managers, be it a good or bad idea, turn down applications simply because they don’t have a piece of paper.
There are plenty of other ways to proove yourself acedemically besides an MSCE (which doesn’t work for Linux, now does it?). And frankly, with a $11,000 server, I would search for someone a wee bit more qualified than a MSCE guy.
I don’t understand what you are trying to tell me. Are you saying that some how, by buying an US$3,000-US$11,000 server, loaded with Linux, it should be adequately locked down? isn’t this the famous last words of the user who bought a machine pre-loaded with Windows Server?
My point is that people wanting ease of use wouldn’t be searching for a server costing $3000-$11,000 (XServe’s price range, in case you didn’t know).
How is a US$3000-$11000 price tag relevant to shutting down services? again, the server is designed with simplicity in mind. When people PAY for Apple software and hardware, that is what they receive. The consumer wants minimum fuss.
Same as above. Nobody would buy a expensive server just because it is easy to use. They may as well buy a $1,000 Wintel server, it would do the job just fine.
You bought up Linux, I am simply stating what the current Linux situation is versus what the situation is with MacOS X.
I didn’t bring up Linux. Did you even read the article? they brought up Linux. Otherwise I wouldn’t even said a word. And again, my point is that Linux isn’t used for easy peasy servers, and probably won’t in the near future. The reviewer somehow thinks that someone who purchased $11,000 worth of hardware would care about ease of use.
Considered expensive?
Yes, when all you going to do is limited by the GUI tools provided by OS X Server – Apache, file sharing, firewall, etc. And you mentioned small businesses. This is the kind of server best suited for them:
? Intel® Celeron® 2.00GHz/128KB Processor
? 40GB ultra ATA/100 hard drive (5400rpm)
? 128MB Advanced ECC PC2100 DDR SDRAM DIMM Memory
? Integrated Dual Channel Ultra ATA-100 IDE Controller
? NC7760 PCI Gigabit NIC (embedded) 10/100/1000 WOL (Wake on LAN)
? 48x IDE (ATAPI) CD-ROM Drive
http://www.smb.compaq.com/dstore/ctoBases.asp?oi=E9CED&BEID=19701&S…
Tell me, why would the average small business need the kind of servers XServes are?
Yet you state:
“Believe me, if a person can’t administrate a server without fancy GUI to guide him through, really, he shouldn’t be an server adminsitrator.”
I use Photoshop. Sometimes I use QuarkXpress. But anyone who calls me a graphics artists is a pure doofus.
The fact remains, the price quoted in a previous section of this post is VERY reasonable when considering that one COULD purchase a Linux server, however, one would then have to get someone to come in and set it up.
Look. Let me put it straight for you.
? Article says OS X Server is better than Linux.
? I disagree, comparing servers on the same price point and people who would actually buy it.
? You bring up small businesses, which wouldn’t buy such an expensive server unless they have cash flowing out of their cashiers into the streets in rapid motion.
? I’m again stating I’m comparing Linux for customers who would actually consider buying a XServe or any server within its price range.
Does that clear things up for you?
I NEVER said Linux is better for small businesses. I was repeating that XServe isn’t in the SMALL BUSINESS market, the same way PowerMac G5 isn’t in the WalMart Supercheap Pee Cees market either.
Lets say you buy a Wintel server, great, the server is cheap but how about the price per-seat? how many small businesses do you know that understand software licensing?
How many small businesses have, or need, more than one server? Mac OS X licensing may be nice if you are having a render farm, or something of that sort.
Again, failing to read my comments in context with the article. If the article is about Apple servers which is as cheap as iMacs or eMacs, that’s a different story. But certainly, XServe is within out of reach for many SOHO customers.
1) Code Red was not caused by a lack of skills but by lazy administrators who do not install patches when they are made available. It is pretty simply stuf, log onto windowsupdate.microsoft.com once a day, download any patches and voila, everything is humming.
But then, you said,
The reality is, people are lazy and they want to do the minimum amount of work possible.
Anyway, to elaborate more, once you master Linux and its apps, your workload may even reduce, if not stay the same if you did it with GUIs.
“Why does one need to feel elite by belittling other people? If I hold a degree in information technology, which is a *VERY* generalized degree, why then should *I* need to spend another year simply to learn how to use a tool so that I can put what I know into practice?”
Why do you think that a slip of paper gives you any skills whatsoever?
It is absolutely irrelevant what degrees you hold or what schools you got them from; what is important is what you know.
If you cared about the subject at all instead of going after the degree for the sake of the prestige you would throw yourself into learning the other tool because of are simply fascinated by it.
The ones you ridicule as feeling “elite” love the technology, where you seem focused on artificial awards and artifacts that make you appear superior.
Get your head straight, you can run the gui tools from anywhere to administer and Apple server, You just need IP addresses. Apple is great, I administer 5 different Xserves in 5 different organizations and support over 300 machines. The best part, the staff I need to help support the 5 companies = 0.
…or maybe already have. ha!
Go over to MacNN forums or Arstechnica’s Mac Ach threads. They have some results that show some significant improvements.
>> xServe is within out of reach for many SOHO customers.??
Your kidding right? The price is cheap and anyone can set one up. The cost of labor is much higher for any other server. If you are doing enterprise level stuff with xServe, than labor per hour will be the same all around, but xServes provides a very nicely integrated system that should allow for less time to set up and put into production. Use your iPod to install a standard config from one xServe to the next or do it over the network (though having an excuse to buy an iPod is a bonus.)
There is nothing more beautiful than a rack of xServes and a couple of xRaids. It’s an admins dream setup.
These Mac articles escalate out of control. Why comment about MacOSX Server if you don’t know jack sheet about it?
Somebody commented that you can telnet into MacOSX. Why would you want to do that if SSH is available.
Then somebody mentioned that you can’t admin MacOSX with out the GUI. Wrong. Use the Server Admin program that you copied from the MacOSX Server Utilities folder on to any remote machine.
Some admin types get all upset if they see an easier and/or different way to do something. Thats a sign of insecurity. Use the GUI tools if it suits you, if not then use a shell. How can you be down on an OS that gives you great GUI tools and full access to a shell?
One of the reasons why NT succeeded over Netware was because of the GUI despite Netware being a superior product.
How the hell is Linux suppose to catch on in the mainstream if there is no Window Manager of any kind.
Its the GUI stupid.
This was a good article on the advantages of MacOSX Server. Its too bad people have to make something else out of it that its not.
Rajan r, you seem to be the type of person whose life is guided by a very simple attitude: “I don’t know squat about it, so it sucks”.
In all your comments and responses you come across as having a very narrow-minded attitude and not very good knowledge of what your talking about. In fact, I dare say you probably haven’t seen an XServe up-close, nor have you read much into it. What, how dare I question your divine wisdom? Let’s look at some of your assumptions, shall we?
The most ludicrous seems to be: “It uses a GUI, and therefore is less secure than Linux”. Now, this is a really good example of lack of knowledge leading to a spreading of FUD.
Firstly, where is any indication that OS X Server (or Client for that matter) is less secure than Linux? Errrrr, let me guess, you just made some rather silly assumption – based on what? – lack of knowledge. You don’t know the GUI, so it has to be bad. Or is it “Windows has a GUI, Windows is insecure, therefore: GUI = insecure”. Well, wait, that’s not a very intelligent conclusion, especially if you knew why Windows has so many security problems. Maybe I should list the for you:
A – Windows is badly designed. Both in code and concept, Windows just blows (as I’m sure you know). The sloppy code was never written with security in mind, and is therefore full of holes. Further, the main user accounts is basically equivalent to root, therefore, any program activated within that account, has immediate access to the entire system. Now, this has nothing to do with the GUI.
B – Windows is badly pre-configured. Windows ships with a ton of unnecessary services switched on, witch means it’s potentially vulnerable as soon as it’s running. Again, this has nothing to do with a GUI.
C – The interface is totally opaque, as in, only Microsoft can control what’s going on behind the scenes. Again, this has nothing to do with a GUI, just a shitty closed architecture.
Therefore, your assertion that Linux is more secure because it doesn’t use a GUI is just plain Bull, based on ignorance. Furthermore, your assertion that using a GUI will automatically create insecurities is just ludicrous. Unless the GUI has a serious bug, it’s actually LESS likely to make something insecure than if someone making a load of changes to a text-file, which is far less self explanatory, and exposes options that otherwise shouldn’t be used.
This of course brings us to your very arrogant elitist stance that only the elite few who know one way of doing things should be allowed to administer a server. What this shows is that your clinging to computing’s past for fear of your privileged position. After all, if anyone can setup and manage a server after only a short learning curve, who needs you? Now, before you spout off again, about how people should know about DNS, or the Mail system or whatever, don’t forget, knowing the workings of the service is not the same as knowing a particular software implementation. You can learn how a certain service works, without having to spend ages learning how to set it up the old way. An intuitive GUI to implement the configuration of said service is a LOT easier to learn and use than a CLI based approach. And it has the added benefit of making any settings easy to overview, therefore making potential security hazards easily visible. Something that isn’t the case when having to configure via CLI.
Now, to further expose your FUD, here comes a rather embarrassing little oversight. Prices. Yes, I agree with you on one thing. If somebody is ready to spend $11’000 on an XServe, then he shouldn’t be trusted to buy anything, because obviously he is allowing himself to be ripped off by the tune of at least 2’700 bucks at the high end. If you had any knowledge of what you were talking about, you would be quoting $2’800 to $8’300, but you obviously like making things up as you go along. And, unless you were living in a cave, you would also be aware that those prices are quite competitive for those specs. And before you go on about how you can configure your little gaming machine for much less, please realise, most businesses would rather acquire hardware of a high standard from a single vendor, who then takes responsibility for the whole item. It’s the way the world works, sorry!
Then of course there’s the claim that companies should have to hire a ton of tech support guys to get anything done. Of course, that would suit you quite nicely wouldn’t it! But the thing is, if you can do without, then why not invest your money somewhere with a bit more sense? Of course, anything you save on hardware is quickly negated by the cost of an extra salary, or even the fees of external consultants. But you’d rather not look that far would you?
Anyway, I think, if you are capable of a bit of self reflection (though don’t try tooo hard, we don’t want you depressing yourself now) the only one who has been irrational, ignorant and arrogant is you! You have shown throughout several posts that your not interested in even knowing much about what your talking about, you just think if you talk the loudest you’ll get lot’s of attention.
Anyway, this post is already waaaay too long, so I’ve got too suggestions for you:
A – Learn about what you fear, take some time on OS X, create an informed opinion after putting in enough time to learn about it. Then you wouldn’t sound as though you were locked in denial, and wouldn’t be left behind by the rapid change in tech.
or B – Get out more. Meet some new people. Get a social life. Learn a bit more about human behavior and maybe some philosophy. Try some REAL social interaction where you take responsibility for your claims.
Personally, I’d try B!
>>Believe me, if a person can’t administrate a server without fancy GUI to guide him through, really, he shouldn’t be an server adminsitrator.
I take it you don’t run a small business that requires a server. Most small business owners I know don’t have the time to learn how use Linux, much less how to implement a server using linux. Most small business owners don’t make enough money to higher a full time guy to administer their server either. They want a turn key solution that will give them the best bang for their buck. Apple Xserves are that turn key solution. Unlimited licenses and better security than M$. Works well with multi-platform environments. The list goes on.
Sure, Mac OS X Server and the Xserve aren’t for everybody, but to snub it so easily only proves one thing: one’s own ignorance.
[“while decidedly Apple, Xserve puts to shame many of the Linux distributions available by tying together the diverse number of applications that are needed to administer an equivalent Linux server into a simple, GUI-driven interface.”]
Of course, you could always buy your Xserve from TerraSoftSolutions for the same price as from apple and get the same OSX configuration plus a fully prepped and configured Yellow Dog Linux configuration as well.
========
Business Guy: “My email isn’t working any more!”
Colleague: “Oh crap, Tech Guy is on holiday…”
Business Guy phones Tech Guy
Business Guy: “Help, our email is bust!”
Tech Guy: “Sorry bud, can’t fix it, you made me get that GUI driven XServer. Had we stuck with that ‘complicated’ CLI server I could have fixed the problem from here – the other side of the planet! Anyway… back to my holiday.” Click
Business Guy: “Noooooooooooooooo!!!”
===========
Man, either the Tech Guy or the Charlie Guy who posted this is an idiot, because Mac OS X Server can be completely managed from the Command Line.
A duh! Typical Troll.
When it comes to Apple there are still alot of people that say the cup is half empty! Even though they have had so many successes……….normal companies don’t usually have that. ipod, iMac, iTools, Final Cut Pro, iTunes, Pixar, Mac OS X,,,,,etc!
Another scenario:
Receptionist: “My email isn’t working any more!”
Business Guy: “Oh crap, Tech Guy is on holiday…”
Business Guy phones Tech Guy
Business Guy: “Help, our email is bust!”
Tech Guy: “Sorry bud, can’t fix it, you made me get that GUI driven XServer. Had we stuck with that ‘complicated’ CLI server I could have fixed the problem from here – the other side of the planet! Anyway… back to my holiday.”
Business Guy: “Hmmm, a GUI frontend for the e-mail server. ”
Receptionist: “Let’s see, click this to reload, click that to rebus the framiscran, there, it’s working again.”
Business Guy: “Guess the Tech Guy can expect a bit longer vacation than he planned.”
Tech Guy: “D’oh.”
vplewis, love it! But don’t say it too load. some people are already getting a bit edgy!
Those darn IDE Hard Drives… WTF? We need to leave IDE land. IDE is a CPU sucker and poor performing solution.
What’s next? Sub 200$ PCs Via processors?
Other than that XServe are a testament of the quality of Apple products and the brilliance of the people making them.
Hahaha
UNIX mail server down, illarious…
Good joke!
Rajanr is always trolling on mac articles. He hates all Apple and Mac stuff yet gets so hot and bothered that he is usually one of the first 5 or 10 people to comment on an article.
ridiculous
Rajanr and about 3 other people somehow perceive this article as negative.
Get a clue. All the article says is MacOSX Server has better GUI admin tools. It doesn’t say MacOSX Server is better than Linux.
VP, this is exactly the kind of stuff that guys like rajanr and chreo are worried about.
They don’t want you to be able to fix your problems. They want to make it so that only RHCE and MCSE are allowed to install a fileserver. They want things as hard as possible in order for them to have job security.
Many of you have made the claim that any admin who wants to use a GUI rather than the command-line to do server administration shouldn’t be administering anything at all.
Does it occur to anyone that just because the admin would rather have a simple GUI at their disposal that it doesn’t imply that if they had to they couldn’t use the command-line?
I mean even if I could configure an entire Linux server starting from an LFS custom build and configuring it from nothing but vi that doesn’t mean if given the opportunity I’d rather not spend all the time doing that and use some well designed simple GUI tools.
Complexity does not relate directly proportional to quality.
A – Windows is badly designed. Both in code and concept, Windows just blows (as I’m sure you know).
C – The interface is totally opaque, as in, only Microsoft can control what’s going on behind the scenes. Again, this has nothing to do with a GUI, just a shitty closed architecture
First Badly designed how?! The Kernel? Userland? Integration? I can agree that Windows NT Servers ut and including Win2000 Server had ass backwards defaults in some cases. But I will certainly not agree that it is badly designed as a whole. IIS sucked (not performance wise) up til version 6. What about the FTP or Mailserver? You obviously don’t know squat what you are talking about, yet strangely this is what you accuse rajan of.
Second: Did you even read what rajan commented about?! He didn’t comment on Windows he commented on the article stating that XServe + MacOSX Server puts many Linux distros to shame. We also discussed the market for the XServe.
This of course brings us to your very arrogant elitist stance that only the elite few who know one way of doing things should be allowed to administer a server. What this shows is that your clinging to computing’s past for fear of your privileged position. After all, if anyone can setup and manage a server after only a short learning curve, who needs you? Now, before you spout off again, about how people should know about DNS, or the Mail system or whatever, don’t forget, knowing the workings of the service is not the same as knowing a particular software implementation. You can learn how a certain service works, without having to spend ages learning how to set it up the old way.
What?! And here I thought, coincidentally not having a CS degree or a certification, that I have to learn how the different services configurations works to be able to make sure my changes is not impacting security. Oh my! I better move over and let the 31337 new student down the hall set up the Windows server next time. He really knows which protocols that sends clear text passwords and those that does not. All I’m saying is real servers need knowledgeable people to set them up regardless of their job title or degree. If they have the knowledge then a GUI or not matter extreemely little. If they can’t even be arsed to learn a few commands or configuration options then they should only use that server as a client and not an admin!
I fully agree with rajan that if you let people that have little to no knowledge of how the servers works do the admining you’re in for ruin. This is the same argument you guys always used against Windows. You can’t have it both ways! What we say is that you need knowledge (not the same as a certificate) to setup and maintain a server. I don’t like the idea of everyone and their grandmother should be able to setup a server, why? Because these are machines that if improperly set up could cause a lot of damage.
VP, this is exactly the kind of stuff that guys like rajanr and chreo are worried about.
They don’t want you to be able to fix your problems. They want to make it so that only RHCE and MCSE are allowed to install a fileserver. They want things as hard as possible in order for them to have job security.
First: I’m a PhD student that does server admins and I don’t get paid squat for it. I do it because people know that I can and they’re wise enough to know that they don’t.
I will never make a living out of it (they’d have to pay me a shitload of money for me to work fulltime as admin as I think I’d be bored to death)
Second: I’ll make the claim that Windows 2k3 is just as good a server and the GUI just as easy to set up as MacOSX server. Next you’ll say that it is insecure and I’ll just respond: Yes if the admin does not know what he’s doing. See what I’m aiming at? Setting up Apache as a server (default in MacOS X server) you should know the potential security risks and the configuration options that impact security. This is NOT rocket science stuff. Almost everyone can learn this. The problem is; there is NO barrier the person with no knowledge will have to pass to fiddle with a Windows or MacOS server (or Linux GUI setup for that matter).
If they can learn that they can just as easy learn to do it through the command line. That is the argument we’re saying. We’re not saying that a GUI that lets you do the exact same thing as the command line is bad. Having a GUI or not is just irrelevant for server setups! You have to know your stuff EITHER WAY!
Many of you have made the claim that any admin who wants to use a GUI rather than the command-line to do server administration shouldn’t be administering anything at all.
Does it occur to anyone that just because the admin would rather have a simple GUI at their disposal that it doesn’t imply that if they had to they couldn’t use the command-line?
We never said a GUI is bad. A GUI have an important drawback though; it tempts those whith to little knowledge to try it out. This is regardless if it is a Windows, MacOSX, Linux or whatever server.
I mean even if I could configure an entire Linux server starting from an LFS custom build and configuring it from nothing but vi that doesn’t mean if given the opportunity I’d rather not spend all the time doing that and use some well designed simple GUI tools.
Complexity does not relate directly proportional to quality.
All that matters is that the person know what he/she is doing. Not that he/she is disqualified for prefering a GUI over a command line to do a specific task.
Business Guy: “My email isn’t working any more!”
Colleague: “Oh crap, Our OSX Server Admin is on holiday…”
Business Guy phones OSX Server Admin
Business Guy: “Help, our email is bust!”
OSX Server Admin: Not a problem. Normally, I’d just ssh into the XServe and fix this from the command line, since I have just as powerful tools to admin OSX Server from CLI as I do from a GUI, but since it only took me 3 minutes to set up a VPN server on that other OSX Server, I can just use my GUI from this here laptop, as easy as if I were there.
Business Guy: Noooooo!… I’ve been meaning to tell you. The CEO got drunk last night and urinated on the VPN server.
OSX Server Admin: Not to worry, I can run port 660 over an ssh tunnel, and use the GUI tool just as simply, or 470 and open a Timbuktu session, or 5000 and use VNC…. No wait! I’ll just use the Webmin installation I put on the server last week…. Oops! Just dropped my laptop into a vat of cooking oil! Ah, well. I’ll just use this Linux box over here, and do it from command line anyhow. Your email should be back in just a few minutes.
Business Guy: Gee, thanks OSX Server Admin
“Oh and what the h**l is Firewire doing on a server?!”
Uhh.. firewire tape backup devices..
moron.
Looking at the pricetag of a xserve that shop you mention will as well be unable to buy an xserve if they are unable to hire an admin.
Actually, when compared to the licensing cost of Win2k3 Server, an Xserve is significantly less expensive.
OS X Server = $1k for unlimited licenses
Win2k3 Server = $4k for just 25 licenses
I’ve been doing research for a new server for the company I work for, and we may be going with an Xserve because its less expensive.
By rajan r (IP: 219.95.169.— ) – Posted on 2003-08-28 12:31:39
Believe me, if a person can’t administrate a server without fancy GUI to guide him through, really, he shouldn’t be a server administrator…
By Chreo (IP: 212.181.42.— ) – Posted on 2003-08-28 12:49:20
I have to agree 110%. Administering a server is just as easily done through a command shell rather than through a GUI. One would think that Apple would have learned a lesson or two from the Windows Server world i.e. it is not the ease of setting up a server that makes a secure server it is the knowledge-level of the server admin…
Rajan, Chreo and all you command shell lovers,
The world is always full of naysayer that believed the world was flat. Years ago the same kind of people laughed at the funny little garbage cans and icons on computer screens and believed all things can be done in DOS. Now you’re telling us that you can administer a server better through a command shell rather than through a GUI and everyone else is too stupid to know these things.
I would say that Apple is moving in the right direction and your sweating your jobs. Your Remember your words in a few years from now as your out of a job because just about anyone can do the task with out learning the command shell.
W
“Oh and what the h**l is Firewire doing on a server?!”
Uhh.. firewire tape backup devices..
moron.(da you ever use firewire??) He must of been thinking of fishing,,,,,,,,,,fireline or something! lol
Isnt Sun going the same way with N1, basically removing the need for redundant “sysadmins” ?
So, I dunno why he would need a CLI to admin remotely.
My neighbor sits on his patio with his wireless tiBook and uses the GUI admin tools from there to work on his xServes in the data center across town. Maybe you should learn some more about it.
The most ludicrous seems to be: “It uses a GUI, and therefore is less secure than Linux”. Now, this is a really good example of lack of knowledge leading to a spreading of FUD.
No, I didn’t make my assumption based on that. On most Linux projects, from the kernel to stuff like Apache, there are more than one companies investing in it. Some of those companies are very security-based. Apple on the other hand historically never been bothered about security, especially in their previous OS. Any security on OS X would have been an afterthought.
Errrrr, let me guess, you just made some rather silly assumption – based on what? – lack of knowledge.
Uhmmm, no, how about Apple’s own site? http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?13@@.eeeb8d4
Just a discussion site, but count how many security related problems. Then there’s the fact of the rarity of security updates of OS X, even know many of the software they bundle, like Apache, Samba, etc. release security patches far more often. I put two and two together.
Or is it “Windows has a GUI, Windows is insecure, therefore: GUI = insecure”.
Windows lack of security has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING to do with the fact it uses a GUI. If it was command line-based, it would be just as insecure.
A – Windows is badly designed. blah blah blah
B – Windows is badly pre-configured. blah blah blah
C – The interface is totally opaque, blah blah blah
I’m sorry, I made less than one sentence about security in OS X, which is a comparison to Linux (NOT WINDOWS), and you go into this? Man, you’re like the press saying Bush Lied based on one sentence in his speech.
Therefore, your assertion that Linux is more secure because it doesn’t use a GUI is just plain Bull based on ignorance.
I never made that assertion, it is you who made it. Now, wanna know why I think Linux is far more secure than OS X? The fact that they have distribution whose main selling point is security. Distributions like SmoothWall, ROOT Linux, Immunix and the likes. Mac OS X is coming from one company (NeXT) that never made security a priority being bought over by another company (Apple) which have no track record of good security.
Furthermore, your assertion that using a GUI will automatically create insecurities is just ludicrous.
Nice touch. One semi-sentence, half and essay of what you thought I said. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Perhaps you could quote me saying that having a GUI would automatically means less security?
This of course brings us to your very arrogant elitist stance that only the elite few who know one way of doing things should be allowed to administer a server
Even more, you are again, putting words in my mouth. I’m saying that for an expensive server, it is kinda stupid to hire a just about anyone to admin a super-easy OS.
You can learn how a certain service works, without having to spend ages learning how to set it up the old way. blah blah blah
Just because it is the “old way” doesn’t mean it isn’t the best way. You’ll spend more time learning it, no doubt. After that, you spend less time doing work.
Something that isn’t the case when having to configure via CLI.
From this I can see your experience with CLI is a few commands, and then you go “Oh, this is hard”. Yeah, you didn’t say that, but you are sure presenting that to the world.
If you had any knowledge of what you were talking about, you would be quoting $2’800 to $8’300, but you obviously like making things up as you go along.
Obviously, you know less about XServers than I do.
Normal XServes: http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/706…
They come in $2,799.00 to $8,248.00.
Before you start thinking you are right, look at this, another model:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/706…
From $5,999.00 to $10,999.00.
Who’s the one lying here?
And, unless you were living in a cave, you would also be aware that those prices are quite competitive for those specs.
I never said they weren’t. Again, my post was about OS X vs. Linux as the article said OS X was superior to Linux. And FYI, you can run Linux on XServe, along with other OS like FreeBSD, NetBSD, etc.
And before you go on about how you can configure your little gaming machine for much less, please realise, most businesses would rather acquire hardware of a high standard from a single vendor, who then takes responsibility for the whole item.
I mention that HP server only because macster was mentioning and touting small businesses. If small businesses do have a server, trust me, even a gaming machine would do just fine.
Then of course there’s the claim that companies should have to hire a ton of tech support guys to get anything done.
They should if they are going to invest so much in an XServe. But note, I didn’t say that. I didn’t say have a tonne of tech support guys. I said hire a good one, not the off-the-streets MSCE grad.
But the thing is, if you can do without, then why not invest your money somewhere with a bit more sense?
I don’t know, how about paying for those time the network is down because the sysadmin screws up? Something that easy to put up is also easy to bring down, via GUI.
Anyway, I think, if you are capable of a bit of self reflection (though don’t try tooo hard, we don’t want you depressing yourself now) the only one who has been irrational, ignorant and arrogant is you!
Okay, mister. Let me tell you who’s irrational, ignorant and arrogant. I mention one sentence about Linux being better than OS X based on amongst other things security, and just spew such irrational, ignorance and arrogance, you make macster look down to earth. Half the things you said about me isn’t true – stuff you put in my mouth. Like this “The most ludicrous seems to be: “It uses a GUI, and therefore is less secure than Linux”. Now, this is a really good example of lack of knowledge leading to a spreading of FUD.”
And then there’s ignorance. You forgot about XServe RAID, for example. You lie about me so it would fit your nice little world, where Macs can do anything better than something else.
Now, if the article was about super-cheap (say, $1,000) servers being better than Linux for ease of use, I would agree, because that would be what medium-sized businesses would buy, and they don’t need much of a dedicated sysadmin for simple stuff like email server, file server, back ups, etc. But then again, XServes aren’t priced for that category.
A – Learn about what you fear, take some time on OS X, blah blah blah
Other than Windows and Linux, I used OS X more than any other OS. I don’t fear OS X – why should I?
B – Get out more. Meet some new people. blah blah blah
I’m quite sure I have much more of a social life than someone thinking they are smart spreading flithy lies about me just because that comment wasn’t really nice to Mac fanboys.
Try some REAL social interaction where you take responsibility for your claims.
Most of my day is spent outside the house (I don’t work, BTW). In fact, I spend very little time in the house unless I’m sick, or tired, which in that case I wouldn’t come here. But I know a whole lot about the Internet. Here’s a tip – when going to a message board, or a mailing list, or anything of that sort – DON’T BASELESSLY INSULT THE REGULARS.
Rajanr is always trolling on mac articles. He hates all Apple and Mac stuff yet gets so hot and bothered that he is usually one of the first 5 or 10 people to comment on an article.
Here’s the popular defination of troll:
2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand – they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, “Oh, ignore him, he’s just a troll.”
Now, go to all recent Mac-related articles. See if I comment. if I did, most of the time, it isn’t related to the article, rather to some stooopid comment by some Machead or some idiot anti-Mac troll.
And oh look, by that defination, which I got from http://www.houghi.org/jargon/troll.html you are the troll. Interesting.
They don’t want you to be able to fix your problems. They want to make it so that only RHCE and MCSE are allowed to install a fileserver.
I’m not a RHCE, or a MCSE, nor do I plan to be a sysadmin or anything similar. And plus, that only works for small businesses. Imagine now, you have 10,000 email accounts, a large flow of viruses, spam, etc. You can use OS X for that? Unlikely
Now you?re telling us that you can administer a server better through a command shell rather than through a GUI and everyone else is too stupid to know these things.
That analogy kinda suck. People who laughed at GUIs back then are still probably not using GUIs and are probably also more productive without it. My point wasn’t that command line is the alpha and the omega of a sysadmin’s life. My point is if a person only knows how to do it via easy-to-use GUI front ends and completely ignorant on how the system works, they shouldn’t be a sysadmin.
And also, we aren’t talking about the future. We are talking about now. There are thousands of sysadmins in large corporations that don’t depend on GUI front ends – would their work become easier with OS X Server? Unlikely. So for the ease of use, you are sacrificing speed, possibly stability (OS X is the only UNIX i have seen kernel panic), security, amongst others. Which to me, doesn’t seem like a good bargain.
GUIs open the workstation market to many new people. Maybe GUIs would do the same for servers. But that’s besides the point: most Linux sysadmins wouldn’t really appreciate OS X’s tools.
Oh, BTW, I’m not a sysadmin. never was, hopefully, never will be. i’m studying now. And the field I’m going to has little to do with administrating servers and the likes. I don’t have my job on the line, I have absolutely nothing to loose here.
“Those darn IDE Hard Drives… WTF? We need to leave IDE land. IDE is a CPU sucker and poor performing solution.”
Well you say you’ve worked with XServes and then you write this nonsense?
You haven’t even RTFM, LOL.
XServers IDE drives all have their own hardware controller for each drive individually. No CPU sucking there, sorry.
Well you say you’ve worked with XServes and then you write this nonsense?
You haven’t even RTFM, LOL.
XServers IDE drives all have their own hardware controller for each drive individually. No CPU sucking there, sorry.
Hmmm… I have never worked with XServes. I think you mistook me for someone else.
Obviously, you know less about XServers than I do.
Normal XServes: http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/706…..
They come in $2,799.00 to $8,248.00.
Before you start thinking you are right, look at this, another model:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/706…..
From $5,999.00 to $10,999.00.
Who’s the one lying here?
rajan r I am afraid you are mistaken still. $2,799.00 to $8,248.00 is the price range for the xserve servers themselves http://www.apple.com/xserve/
$5,999.00 to $10,999.00 is for the xserve RAID http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/ which is an external RAID storage solution, not a server. You get one of these in addition to, not in place of, a server should your storage requirements necessitate it.
for those who have worked with the Xserve, just how loud are they? It seems most reviews mention it which seems odd since rack mount servers are generally now expected to be quiet. Are they excessively loud?
My mistake, thanks for pointing that out. But then, since XServe RAID is for XServes, that would put the maximum price of XServes higher, no?
Lastly on GUI config, what is the objection to them? Personally I would appreciate a good GUI admin tool as long as it did not interfere with cli administration. Setup is one place where GUIs help the most. Once the system is set up initially my experience is it is easier to administer and tweak the setup manually via command line.
I would consider the cost of the server money well spent if it can configure ldap, samba, and nfs support easily and properly. I really dislike setting up samba. I have done it twice now and both times it took me much longer than I think it should have. And to forestall the coming comments, I don’t cate how easy others find setting up samba. How quickly/easily others set up samba did not help me one bit.
I won’t go into comparing prices but external dual fiber, redundant power supply, redundant RAID controller, RAIDS with 2.5TB ($11K model) of storage are not cheap no matter where you get them from. That is a serious peice of storage with a crapload of redundancy.
Last time I priced storage solutions TB arrays were not ever available so my experience is a little out of date for pricing.
“Those darn IDE Hard Drives… WTF? We need to leave IDE land. IDE is a CPU sucker and poor performing solution.”
Why do IDE drives suck cpu? Could you explain that please?
They aren’t cheap, and they aren’t for small businesses, which macster loves… :-). Actually, comparing prices, they are all around the same price (the RAIDs)..
“Oh, BTW, I’m not a sysadmin. never was, hopefully, never will be. i’m studying now. And the field I’m going to has little to do with administrating servers and the likes. I don’t have my job on the line, I have absolutely nothing to loose here.”
Oh then how do you make such broad generalizatons on what sysadmins like to use and not. If you haven’t administered a a bunch of systems you can not fathom all the the issues involved in doing that job. So please stop the useless discussion you are trying to have on this forum.
You sound like a college student who discovered linux. I have been there and done that. When I was is college a couple of years ago linux seemed liek the best things since sliced bread. I couldn’t stop evangelizing linux. After two years of being employeed I barely run it. I have it installed and am more than capable of cofiguring it. But I am frankly tired of playing with linux to make it work. I get the same functionaltiy with 1/10th the work with Windows or MacOS. I have never had a virus or security breach on any of those platforms and I used the GUI tools.
I have seen linux and other unix panics. You just don’t seem to have seen enough systems. Every system crashes even the big multimillion dollar enterprise servers.
…is coming from people who believe that complex user interfaces are appropriate for complex systems, because they require people to learn about the complex systems behind the user interfaces.
The fallacy with this objection is the belief that the purpose of a GUI on a system administration tool is to hide the complexity of the back end. In actuality, GUIs on such tools generally simply expose most (or all) of a back end’s configuration options. The idea that just because the buttons are there that an administrator will start randomly pressing them to see what happens is no more or less reasonable than the idea that an administrator will start uncommenting random lines in a .rc file to see what happens. This isn’t to say that the first will never happen–it is, however, to say that the second happens as well.
In fact, in my experience, the second is more likely to happen with catastrophic results. Why? Because in a well-designed GUI, all those options are given at least cursory immediate, interactive documentation, from tooltips to context-sensitive help. The chances of our hypothetical well-meaning but unschooled administrator getting enough help in the GUI to know not to press the Screw Up Your Server button are, in fact, much greater than the chances of the same administrator wading through a man page to know exactly what that line he’s editing does rather than taking an educated guess on the cryptic name of the variable whose value he’s changing.
Ultimately, this is a variant of the same argument that’s been levied against GUIs from the start–the idea that GUIs are there to dumb things down. The argument’s still bogus. Anybody who’s ever done tech support on programs in the DOS or CP/M era can tell you that CLIs are absolutely no protection against idiots (or even against technophobes). But GUIs often help people who aren’t idiots get up to speed much more quickly. And you know, increased productivity isn’t such a bad thing.
I work primarily in a mix of *nix platforms including multiple Linux servers and desktops and, ironically, recently have been having concern on losing my ability to work with GUIs. I use XP on a daily basis as well but am more comfortable at a cygwin prompt than using the windows manager, especially for file management and launching apps. Windows is not very difficult but it just does not “feel right” to me anymore. If I were off in my own world this would not matter, but in the real world I need to be able to work easily in Windows since that is what many clients/potential employers work in.
While it does not have anything to do with XServe, the debate over GUI vs CLI administration made me think about it.
BTW good post WattsM.
sounds like a lot of linux admins gettin’ nervous here. . . . you guys should jsut TRY OSX Server once or twice before getting your panties in such a bundle. OSX Server is NOT a GUI-only deal. The real strength of it is that nearly everything can be done either from the command line OR the GUI . . . it’s really the best of both worlds- idiots can set it up successfully AND securely, and if you know what you’re doing, the command line is always there (along with lots and lots of ports of command line UNIX and linux tools) to make things much more efficient. give it a try . .. all y’all are really doing is demonstrating that you have NO IDEA what OSX Server is like AT ALL!!!!!!
netinfo goes away in 10.3.
Also, netinfo IS documented- it’s been in use since Openstep. check dev.apple.com for the Understanding Netinfo pdf . . . .
Quote:
Business Guy: “My email isn’t working any more!”
Colleague: “Oh crap, Tech Guy is on holiday…”
Business Guy phones Tech Guy
Business Guy: “Help, our email is bust!”
Tech Guy: “Sorry bud, can’t fix it, you made me get that GUI driven XServer. Had we stuck with that ‘complicated’ CLI server I could have fixed the problem from here – the other side of the planet! Anyway… back to my holiday.” Click
Business Guy: “Noooooooooooooooo!!!”
/Quote
So, you’ve never heard of apple remote desktop or ssh? i’m based in sacramento, and i take care of OSX servers in san francisco, sausalito, oakland, san jose, and los alamitos with ARD and ssh.
high-speed IP over firewire clustering?
running an automated server set up script from an ipod?
just a couple of things we’ve done and are planning on doing (the automated set up script support isn’t in 10.2, it’s coming in 10.3)
quote:
Mac OS X on commandline – what exactly is its advantage over Linux? Nothing? Yeah, that’s more like it.
/quote
Why are you being so defensive?! just think of OS X as an exotic, expensive linux distro that has it’s own hardware bundle. I mean, seriously, dealing with OSx and Linux is so similar, and they play so nicely together, I don’t understand why there’s so much hostility here. Why not stop bitching and just check it out so that you can have an informed opinion? you might even like it in a complementary role to Linux- OSX Server is really a nice combination of command line usefulness, GUI ease of use, and total hardware compatibility. the only thing I have a problem with is the hardware’s prices, but even that is not as big a deal as it was in the past- apple’s prices have gotten to the point where they’re in the ballpark, at least . . . . And the licensing fees for the server OS are cheap compared to MS, and not bad compared to linux when you consider that support is included in that price . . . . .
does this guy EVER make sense?
if he’s not an admin, doesn’t want to be one, isn’t studying to become one, and doesn’t have the knowledge to be one, why should we listen to him about any of this? why does his opinion matter at all?
how can anyone expect to have credibility when he can’t even tell the difference between a server and an external raid array?
and, finally, why is his heart so obviously filled with hate?
love, rajanr, don’t hate. love. what has apple ever done to you?
From rajan r
That analogy kinda suck. People who laughed at GUIs back then are still probably not using GUIs and are probably also more productive without it. My point wasn’t that command line is the alpha and the omega of a sysadmin’s life. My point is if a person only knows how to do it…
———–
To Rajan r,
I have read many of your comments, and your thoughts are mostly B&W. We all know of your feelings toward Apple, and we all know that according to you Apple can do nothing right! Maybe, just maybe, there are gray areas that you cannot see because of your polarizing position.
Your point was understood with your first comments; my point is that I believe your points are narrow-minded. With comments like yours, Apple and other software developers should see a big market opportunity for administrating with GUI better than command shell. Not for people like you, but for the rest of us who grow tired of dealing with narrow-minded people.
W
Don’t I just love broad generalizations about me?
Raptor: Oh then how do you make such broad generalizatons on what sysadmins like to use and not. If you haven’t administered a a bunch of systems you can not fathom all the the issues involved in doing that job. So please stop the useless discussion you are trying to have on this forum.
I may not be a sysadmin, but I sure know a heck of a lot of them. And since I can talk at their level, and know what they are talking about, it isn’t that bad.
Raptor: You sound like a college student who discovered linux.
I’ve started using Linux 4 years ago, I’m using Windows full-time now. I may buy a Mac end of the year, unless AMD releases Athlon-64 and if I decided it is a better deal.
Raptor: When I was is college a couple of years ago linux seemed liek the best things since sliced bread.
try going to most Linux forums where I put my comment there, you would see I’m far, far, far from that.
Raptor: I have seen linux and other unix panics. You just don’t seem to have seen enough systems. Every system crashes even the big multimillion dollar enterprise servers.
The frequency of those crashes is what that counts. Besides, I’m far from saying Linux is the best OS. I’m saying for XServe’s target market, Linux’s weakness (the lack of nice GUI tools) hardly matters.
WattsM: …is coming from people who believe that complex user interfaces are appropriate for complex systems, because they require people to learn about the complex systems behind the user interfaces.
Go to one of those old Lindows or Lycoris threads, I don’t share that belief. However, I wouldn’t sacrifice flexibility to the alter of ease of use.
sounds like a lot of linux admins gettin’ nervous here. . . . you guys should jsut TRY OSX Server once or twice before getting your panties in such a bundle. OSX Server is NOT a GUI-only deal.
For servers that cost as much as XServe, it is bound to do more than to manage a few dozen of emails from a few different account, or anything small business like. For tasks XServe, a servers priced for that similar market, could do, GUI tools isn’t needed. So lets say I’m a admin, I start using Mac OS X. 1/2 the time I use the GUI tools (even when I could use CLI tools), and say the other half of the time I use CLI tools because they are more convinient. What do I get? A worser deal than Linux. Linux is faster, more stable, perhaps more secure, etc. Hope on to one of those BSDs, you would get a even better deal.
GUI tools as of now [i[don’t[/i] matter to people running $10,000 servers.
elvisizer: Why are you being so defensive?! just think of OS X as an exotic, expensive linux distro that has it’s own hardware bundle.
I’m not being defensive. I’m saying what advantage is there using OS X over Linux when on OS X you would be using CLI?
elvisizer: if he’s not an admin, doesn’t want to be one, isn’t studying to become one, and doesn’t have the knowledge to be one, why should we listen to him about any of this?
Except when it comes to database servers (whom I still haven’t mastered) and back-up servers (well, I never laid my hands on one of those heavy-duty storage devices, how do you expect me to know?), I have the knowledge to do an admin’s work. Why I don’t want to do into that business? There’s no money there, the market is so saturated. I have bigger plans for my life, thank you very much.
In fact, I set up my church’s network.
elvisizer: why does his opinion matter at all?
how can anyone expect to have credibility when he can’t even tell the difference between a server and an external raid array?
That was a genuine mistake. I clickly click on XServe RAID, look at the furthest right and look at the price, closing the window almost immediately. I didn’t read the description, read the specs. To err is human.
But with the most expensive XServe, you can customize it to be bought with, amongst others, the most expensive XServe RAID, the price would be $21,196.00 (I didn’t add any rack enclosers).
Would you submit a $21,196.00 to a idiot that needs GUI tools just because he can configure it?
elvisizer: and, finally, why is his heart so obviously filled with hate?
As a Christian, the only thing I hate right now is that pesky squirrels ruining my garden at the backyard.
elvisizer: and we all know that according to you Apple can do nothing right!
No, according to me, Apple Machead fans can never say anything right. Apple done a lot of things right, like taking the bold step to remove floppys, to FireWire which I use. Without iMac, I wouldn’t expect beige boxes to go either. I can go on and on…