KernelTrap features three interesting articles – first, second and the newest -, round ups of the Linux kernel mailing list, where some of the developers are fighting against the use of the proprierty BitKeeper, while the rest are evangelizing regarding the “best tool for the job”. When emails like “Rot in hell, closed mind” emerged in the list, Linus replied: “Quite frankly, I don’t _want_ people using Linux for ideological reasons. I think ideology sucks. This world would be a much better place if people had less ideology, and a whole lot more ‘I do this because it’s FUN and because others might find it useful, not because I got religion’“. Our Take: Personally, I am on Linus’ side. He rocks on this particular subject.
Linux and Open Source Idealogy
2002-04-21 Linux 43 Comments
How can one have a strict opinion about some basic things without it being an ideology?
Is Linus basically saying that you shouldn’t have an opinion about what’s going on in the world, neither for nor against? just be happy and stop thinking.
Because yeah, having opinions sucks.
IMO, it’s when you express or practice your opinions/ideology in a bad way that it sucks, or when you get fanatic and closed minded.
There is a difference between an ideology, an opinion and being a *fanatic*. I think Linus used the word “ideology” and not “fanatism” so he would not directly insult anyone in a bad way. But from what I can see by reading all this flaming war in the lkml, it is GPL fanatism, not a simple ideology or an opinion anymore. And Linus (and lots of others) just doesn’t like to have such fanatics on board. Fanatism is not a good thing.
I mean, come on. This documentation guy does not like to see the Bitkeeper HowTo on the document directory of the linux kernel. But, we like it or not, Linus found this tool and he really liked it and it really does what he needs to do with the source and its branches. So, he went for it. And now this guy does not like to find docs for BitKeeper on “his” docs directory. I am sorry, but if someone wants to contribute on Linux or submit patches, he HAS to find the information on how to do so, on the standard kernel tar.gz, because that is what source control Linux uses today.
It is like saying “oh, how I hate seeing documentation on gcc.tar.gz on how to compile with GCC under Windows”. But you need GCC, because it is free. And you need to know how to compile under any platform for it. And the documentation should be there. No matter if your target platform is open or closed source.
If that tool had come from the devil himself, I would say, sure, do not use it. But feeling FILTHY just because it is a proprierty tool (a tool also created with blood and tears by its developers), I think it is SICK. Fanatism of any kind (GPL or not) is a bad thing.
I know about fanatism first hand. Greeks are f*cking fanatics about politics and soccer. They piss and moan every day, all day, about the political parties and the soccer teams. I can’t stand “normal” Greeks not even for a freaking minute. This is one of the reasons why I don’t live there anymore, neither I will ever go back there.
if you werent the mod here, i would ask you how we got on the subject of the greeks…
your statement pretty much applies to any mediterranean culture… not that i want to generalize.
There is a difference between an ideology, an opinion and being a *fanatic*. I think Linus used the word “ideology” and not “fanatism” so he would not directly insult anyone in a bad way.
Yes, I know that theres a difference. That’s why I was insulted by what he wrote. I have very strong ideologies, but I’m not fanatic about them.
It’s like I would say that “religion sucks” when I actually think that fanatic religious people suck. Do you think that I would say such a thing to not directly insult anyone in a bad way?
If I said that, then pretty much anyone the belives in a religion would be insulted.
I he meant fanatic people, then he should have said that. Period.
And btw, if you say that Greeks are f*cking fanatics, then that would make you a f*cking fanatic too right? or did that stop when you moved to the UK?
> And btw, if you say that Greeks are f*cking fanatics, then that would make you a f*cking fanatic too right? or did that stop when you moved to the UK?
I have yet to meet a Greek woman that is a fanatic for any subject. But I have met _plenty_ of such Greek men.
> I have yet to meet a Greek woman that is a fanatic for any subject. But I have met _plenty_ of such Greek men.
So what you really meant was that plenty of Greek men are fanatics?
Then why didn’t you say so. That’s very different from just “Greeks”.
Anyway, I haven’t met a single fanatic Greek man. But then again, I’ve never been to Greece. All the Greek men I’ve met lives here in Sweden, perhaps they moved here for the very same reason you moved to England
Right now, you seem to be going through a phase in life in which you despise the culture of the group you descended from (ie. resentment, embaressment). That’s pretty normal for people in their 20’s. In time (with aging and experience), you will remember the sweet days you had growing up, and begin to miss the bickering and politics (and dare I say the passion) of the Mediteranian/Balkan region. Mark my words – you will look back (with fondness and tears in your eyes) at the sweet culture you grew up in.
This applies to all culturally resentful people – be they Greek, Turkish, Italian, Serbian (me), Spanish etc. We all have a passion for life. We may not be the greatest engineers/scholars, but man, our food/music/poetry is full of sweet emotions.
Back to our scheduled program…
I am 28 and going to 29 in a month. And I feel like this for Greeks, for more than 10 years now. Pretty much, since my first visit to another country (Germany). I stayed in Germany (working) for 8 months before I gone back to Greece to study.
There, I realised that Greece is not the center of the world where Greeks give light and knowledge to the whole world and that everyone is respecting modern Greeks, just because they are descedants of the ancient Greeks. You see this is what ALL Greeks that never lived to another country believe with passion. This is what we pretty much are taught in schools *indirectly*.
You have to live in Greece to see how the Greeks living in a fantasy world, where they think that they rule everything, where they think that western Europeans are “sheep” and easily manipulative people, where everyone thinks that can rule the country better than the whatever president and that their soccer team is better and anyone else’s.
Please. I know better. I lived with these people for 22 years. And I am not going back.
And that reminds me an article in a UK newspaper some years ago, about an English correspondant in Greece. He was there for 2 years at that time, and he indeed was able to realize the same things too. Smart fellow.
I agree wholeheartedly with Linus…strong ideological personalities like RMS and ESR hurt their movements profoundly…it’s because of mentalities like these that I refuse to release software under the GPL and similar licenses…BSD and MIT licenses for me thank you very much.
>Greeks are f*cking fanatics
>about politics and soccer
Fanaticism about politics and soccer I can understand. What about fanatism about a piece of land?
Sorry, I would rather have Greeks than Jews or Arabs. I have never heared that Greeks murder others to prove what a fine fellow Aristotle was, but Jews and Arabs must murder and plunder for the “holy” land. I don’t see any way out. The world is full of fanatics, from Bin Laden all the way to George Bush. Its a wonder this planet is still intact.
hey lets keap going on greece. I found it to be a nice country but don’t know how the population survives. Driving is a death wish. Eugenia when you lived there how many moped riding freinds did you know that got creamed by other vehicals? I very much feared for my life getting near a road. There are worse drivers than those from New Jersey. Other than the driveing thing I found Greece to be nice but I wasn’t there for 22 years so i didn’t pick up on any of the embedded issues. But I think you give a overall message that i think many people need to pick up on and that is you should travel to differant places. You get a much differant feel for the world. People who never leave or live outside of one small area tend to have messed up views on the world or are very (can’t think of the word, nationalist maybe) to much pride for there place.
I fell in love with Greek women at a Greek restaurant in Washington, DC….in 1976. She was a belly-dancer and I had a seat right next to the stage. I also had a bottle of ouzo. Man. The things she could shake. Yeah, I guess I’m a fanatic about Greek belly-dancers….so long as they are women and don’t look like Anthony Quinn. Well, it’s time to go aout and get a couple of bottles of Taiwan Beer and soothe my fevered emotions. Thanks Eugenia!
> Eugenia when you lived there how many moped riding friends did you know that got creamed by other vehicals?
FOUR. All of them with motorcycle accidents.
All below 21 years old. Especially the two of them, used to be very good friends of mine. We used to play basketball with one of them (died at 18, 3 years ago), while the other one (died at 20, 10 years ago) was our landlord’s son, also pretty close to me.
> She was a belly-dancer and I had a seat right next to the stage.
Funnily enough, belly dancing is not a greek thing at all. 😮
It mostly came to Greece in 1920 after the exchange of the population with Turkey. For some reason, western cultures thought that this is a Greek “traditional” thing and that bouzouki music is also traditional Greek, while it is blatantly false. This whole culture came from Turkey in the 1920s and some people after the exchange of the population instead of staying in Greece, they travelled elsewhere and when they were asked “where are you from?” they replied that they were Greeks (they are technically Greeks of course, but they were cut-off from the mainland for many hundrends of years – their civilization, language and music had evolved very differently with many inspirations from the Middle East).
In case you are interested, the older Greek culture does not embrace belly dancing and the traditional dance was very “conservative”, there were no naked places in the body to show off during traditional *LINE* dances, and also the traditional music is the “clarino” music (a clarinet-like instrument), not the bouzouki one.
Anyway, we are way-way off topic.
Sorry to hear about your freinds. This was just something that worried me over there. I guess my worries were right. I would hope things like that happening would make the others drive better.
Instead of arguing why can;t they just start coding
that NUMA support…
Hey Eugenia, I live in civilised Melbourne, Australia (the bottom side of the world, below the soles of your feet) and bike riders have on average 2 falls per year. This is in a modern urban environment, with a very safe traffic culture. Falling off a bicycle due to stupidity is not a ‘Greek’ only thing, its a world wide Darwin Awards thing.
As for the Greek mentatility of ‘the civilized world rotates around us, they owe us‘, I know exactly what you mean. But guess what – Greeks aren’t the only people with that attitude. Take Hollywood for example – same attitude. In fact, almost everywhere you go, you’ll encounter societies who think they are the chosen people, all because of their history. You said that Greeks take pride in their classic philosofers – hehe, the Serbs use the silly argument that they introduced cutlery (forks and such) to western europe – big deal. Only new societies (ie. Australia, New Zealand, Canada) with no history dont have this attitude – yet. Give them a few hundred years, and they’ll think that they are the chosen people, just like every society on this planet. Its a small-simple minded thing, which disappears with education.
Traditional music changes with the ages – in 200 years, people will think that Rock’n’Roll was traditional. No need to be upset with ‘folk’ music. The same applies to wardrobe – Levi’s denim jeans will become traditional one day. There is no need to despise what commercial factors are influencing.
Here in Australia, the commercial TV’s target a slice of the ratings with idiotic shows like “survivor”, “big brother”, “football shows” and other crap. Its crap to the ‘n’th degree. But I dont judge a majority of society by what is shoved at me. Its Trailor-trash redneck material, cattered for a demographic of 12-20. I dont automatically assume that all of Australians (if such a thing exists) are redneck, trailor-trash people. Likewise, dont assume that all Greeks are interested in politics and football. Its no different in other societies, and dont assume that your native society is a ‘backward’ society.
Back to the scheduled topic…
Open source idealogies? Where does the work Ideology come from – ideal or idiot? Think about that for a moment…
And as a socialist with lot of Marxistic ideas, I see Linux as the natural evlutional step forward toward a healthy society built by the Marxism model. Call Linux “Cyber Communism”.
Am i the only one still getting popups?
They don’t bother me too much (a quick down and left swipe and they are gone , just wondering.
I am of the opinion that no matter what you believe in is fine as long as you are happy to accept REASONED arguments of a differing view, And don’t partake in trying to convert everyone to your way of thinking except through reasoned argument. This is where my problem with religion/fananitics is, though i’m prolly a hypercrite.
“Linus replied: “Quite frankly, I don’t _want_ people using Linux for ideological reasons. ”
oh, i’m sorry Linus, i’m using your code for ideological reasons.. yup, i believe in freedom and that freedom is all that matters for me.. as you spoke of fun. i find no fun in closed source and in some (very rare) open source.. that’s why i prefer free software.. i don’t really care if the software is open, closed or free, i only care if the possability for me to know how the program works is not so hidden from me that it’s hard to not reverse engineer it and spend 1000 hours on it insted of 1 or 2… you spoke of fun, hope your having phun.. for me the fun ends with a non-disclosure agreement and alike crap.. i use propertary (mispelled.. i don’t really care) code, it’s a capitalist world so i can’t help it.. all i need is my freedom and i see no harm to that using BitKeeper on the lk, so i can’t really see what’s all the fuss about.. politics ? religion? computers aren’t not about dogma.. their about a way to be creative… fuck ideology ? nope.. fuck dogma! fuck fanatism! fuck ppl who make ideias into beleafs and defend them as if more important than anything else… an idea is a good thing, because you can change it whenver you want, you can molde it to anyone.. it’s portable like C *g*
i guess i haven’t got many things to say… just that i use linux for freedom.. so, sorry Linus.. but instead of mindless cash-pursuing ideas, i chose freedom… sorry for using your kernel..
>>Greeks are f*cking fanatics
>>about politics and soccer
>Fanaticism about politics and soccer I can understand. >What about fanatism about a piece of land?
>Sorry, I would rather have Greeks than Jews or Arabs. I >have never heared that Greeks murder others to prove what >a fine fellow Aristotle was, but Jews and Arabs must >murder and plunder for the “holy” land. I don’t see any >way out. The world is full of fanatics, from Bin Laden all >the way to George Bush. Its a wonder this planet is still >intact.
i ask myself that question everyday…
You seem to be a fanatic antigreek Euginia. And the you come to talk about anti fanatism and how wrong it is. That seems a bit hypocritical to me, but that’s just me. This is your site fine but could you keep the subject of the discussion on topic please? If you were on /. you would have been moderated -1 flamebait. But this is not slashdot. It is your site and the more the reason you should be more professional. Personally i think that you have some psychological bad memories. I don’t know maybe because you lost some friends, completely understandable, or maybe because you hang out with the wrong croud. All the greeks that i have met are actually good people. But then again they don’t live in greece but here in the US.
On another note have you ever seen a country with out fanatics? They may not be in soccer or politics but here in the US we have a lot of racists too. I really enjoy reading your site and i would appreciate it if you could please keep the subject under OSs and not make this site a politics one. After all that’s why i don’t visit Kuro5hin no more.
Eugenia, despite your cultural rants, like it or not, Greece is deep in our culture. I’ve never been in Greece but its music sounds to me ancient and warmly familiar.
NEVER ON SUNDAY.
Aristoteles IS beyond science, the most brilliant Humanist history has known. When I can’t stand anymore the modern writings I know I can always have any of the greek classics and feel as drinking fresh water.
Eugenia, your sexual opinions are not very scientific. Lets askOxford.com: What is the feminine equivalent of a misogynist (a person who hates or dislikes women)?
The equivalent is misandrist (a person who hates or dislikes persons of the male sex), a rare word but seemingly much sought-after. The corresponding noun for the attitude is misandry.
Etymology: Greek, from ‘misein’ to hate + ‘andros’ man — . The light of Greece again. Cool the misandrist in you.
they are technically Greeks of course..
“technically”???, oh my God that gave me fits.
Finally, speaking of “the older Greek culture” and “no naked places in the body to show off”, you go figure yourself the etymology of ‘pornography’. Thanks again greeks!!! @+j+@
And Ale’Xandros OS (www.Xandros.com) coming ‘somehow, somewhere, sometiiiiiime’.
Last but not least with the topic.
I’m not pro GNU/GPL but I can perfectly understand the objections made, that’s not fanatism nor idealism, it’s called ‘coherence’ with open source at the very source level. Not a ‘wooden horse’, but certainly a nuissance for an open source project.
With all due respects, we certainly don’t need Linus Torvalds telling what reasons he wants us to have for using Linux, I already have a father and I’m older than thirty.
“There’s a blind man here with a brow
As big and white as a cloud.
And all we fiddlers, from highest to lowest,
Sit at his feet,
And hear him sing the fall of Troy.”
(Edgar Lee Masters. Spoon River Anthology)
Regards from Spain,
I understand what Linus is saying. In general, ideology is a poor reason to “force” upon oneself the use of any “mode de vie” or tool. Yet there is something to be sais for the “wake up call” in the IT world about Microsoft’s business practices. I personally use Linux because I used the very first Unices, the very firstBSD’s, and simply followed the evolutionaty thread to Linux. I use it because it is fun, more secure generally, more controllable from the user and admin perspective, and the scientific apps I use on a daily basis purr like kittens in the Linux environment, whereas similar applications for Windows crash during each session. Ideology is also a valid reason to use Linux. Many individuals and businesses who are simply fed up with MS, its outrageous prices and hostage tactics concerning updates etc, have moved to Linux for both ideological and pocketbook reasons. I do agree that ideology has little practical use, but fun also can have an ideological perspective. Defending Linux against FUD and lies isn’t necessarily ideological either. It is a necessity. MS doesn’t seem to have qualms about lying about Linux and emitting false information about it. Now when one dares to “correct” this info either on message boards or in the press, you can be sure that that person will be called a “Linux integrist” or a “fanatic” bu Microsoft groopies. That is another FUD tactic that MS actively supports to silemce the “opposition.” One more thing, you could move to Montreal you know and have the best of both worlds. You can’t throw a brick here in any direction without breabing the window of a Souvlaki seller…:)
Can we get back on topic please? Nobody cares about people trying to say smarmy remarks.
There would be no noteworthy free software (or “open source”) movement without Richard Stallman. Even if you don’t agree with his stance, he’s very effectively shown the battle lines, and everyone from purely-free to purely-proprietary falls somewhere on the spectrum he’s helped define. Without his clear thinking, there’d be much more confusion about the differences between “open source”, closed shareware, freeware, etc., and hardly any compatibility between MIT/MPL/Apple/etc.
Leaders of movements are rarely warm, cuddly, and 100% agreeable. They’re not supposed to be.
Instead of arguing why can;t they just start coding
that NUMA support…
Um. They already did, ages ago…
Right on about Stallman. Teach on Bro!
Have this ever happened to you? You are in school/university and the teachers order you to do the work. The more they force you, the more you hate it. Now look at the GPL. it forces freedom which isn’t freedom any more. Commercial development hates it. If it was more like BSD, it would be much more accepted. The whole copyleft concept is whacko…
<< Now look at the GPL. it forces freedom which isn’t freedom any more. Commercial development hates it.>>>
That statement, my cher Anonymouse, is pure FUD.
Ever since his so-called “interview” here in OSnews, I don’t respect him nearly as much as I did in the past.
Nevertheless, Linux is still a magnificent creation.
“I agree wholeheartedly with Linus…strong ideological personalities like RMS and ESR hurt their movements profoundly…”
That is one of the prime reasons I abandonded Linux for FreeBSD. I got tired of being associated with “Linux fanatics”.
I need a bottle of ouzo…..
Listen all you zealots-
If it wasn’t for the information that Eugenia and Co. come up with, you would be slagging each other on that worthless rag slashdot.
The fact is that flamers, zealots, and weak minded simpletons are de rigeur lately and it is tiresome.
If you like something, great.
If you don’t, also great.
If you think something can be done better, then do it better.
If you can’t-then learn how to.
If you don’t want to bother-quit whining then.
If you like BEOS-great-stop hogging all the forums.
IF you want to rant-go have fun on slashdot.
If you are a idealog (get yer dictionary), zealot, or revolutionary-great, just
1) don’t force you ideology on me,
and 2) back up your arguments with facts, not just windows sucks.
>Listen all you zealots-
Ok…I am listening.
>If it wasn’t for the information that Eugenia and Co. come up with, >you would be slagging each other on that worthless
Can’t say as I have ever spent any amount of time of slashdot.
>The fact is that flamers, zealots, and weak minded simpletons are >de rigeur lately and it is tiresome.
Yeah..look at the popularity of Windows and Linux.
>If you like something, great.
>If you don’t, also great.
I like cheese.
>If you like BEOS-great-stop hogging all the forums.
Huh? Who’s hogging? BeOS smokes all those other OS’s in terms of its sheer OS-ness. And just because people like to express that doesnt make them a crazy zealot. BeOS has made a lot of people happy, perhaps they are trying to share the joy?
>IF you want to rant-go have fun on slashdot.
I didnt see this post on slashdot…
>If you are a idealog (get yer dictionary), zealot, or revolutionary>-great, just
>1) don’t force you ideology on me,
>and 2) back up your arguments with facts, not just windows sucks.
you WILL use BeOS and like it, for no reason other than Windows sucks. Duh.
Oh, and Greek food is really tastey.
Why be so offensive about greeks. We are certainly not the center of the civilised world.
We do have created a very bad reputation as far as it concerns our public image.
We are by far the less organised (at least at the level of state and public servises) nation in Europe. Ancient greeks considered themselves the center of the world and all the rest just “barbarians”. And they were quite right, given the fact that at that time there were an absence of other cultures in the known world. And of course ancient greeks probably have no genes in common with moderns greeks, given the fact that during the centuries greeks have been mixed up with so many different cultures (Romans, Turks etc)
And why is so bad to believe that you are the ruler of the world? What does USA does in our times.
As far politics and soccer is concerned take a look at civilised Europe:
Ireland is a good example of politics fanatism!!
France could be the next, given yesterday’s elections!!
It happens to be watching a greek tv show right now, commenting on the French elections and about the emerging ethnicist party.
Just note that their national football team (world champions) consists of an Algerian and a dosen of other black players.
UK wow!!!… soccer fanatism at its best (or worse), at least 15 years ago!!
Good people and bad people exist just everywhere!!!
Organised and un – organised people also!!!
Its not your nations fault if you become a racist, a fanatic (politics, soccer, or other).
Its more up to your education, and you could turn against your parents or your teachers…
But its not coming with your nationality!!!!
I have to disagree. If you look to asia you’ll see cultures much more advanced technologically and philosophically then greece (or rome) were. Especially China, but since their society didn’t reward advances (merely tolerated them) most of their greatest achievements were lost for centuries. Besides its not bad to be proud of your ancestral countrymen’s achievements, as long as you do other things.
I would respectfully like to take this moment to remind everyone of a very simple fact, often totally ignored by the un-educated: you are ALL wrong about everything. For pure reason and sparkling veracity, I highly recommend only myself.
Ireland is a good example of politics fanatism!!
No, N.Ireland is a good example of an oppressed people fighting for there homeland.
Just like the Greeks did against the Turks.
The French (and rest of Europe) against the Germans.
The Native Amricans against the Europens.
Greeks have nasty roads. I really don’t like them, but then I don’t like roads.
You can’t have it both ways when you denounced Gate’s stance of “GPL as a cancer” as pure FUD and then condoned what Lindows (and other companies) have done. You can’t dismiss “GPL is not a viable business model” as pure FUD and then condone GPL violations as “let’s give Lindows a chance to succeed”. If the only way to make money off the GPL license is to violate the GPL license itself, then the GPL license itself is not a viable business model.
Last month, IBM’s Dr. Karl-Heinz Strassemeyer (he ported linux to S/390) was interviewed by a Scandinavian linux users group.
Dr. Strassemeyer recalled in the interview that in 1999, he had scheduled a meeting with Linus to show him a first viewing of linux on S/390. But before the meeting with Linus, the lawyers at IBM were all freaked out that such a demonstration to Linus was not vetted by the IBM lawyers.
After hundreds of IBM lawyers later, Dr. Strassemeyer was ONLY allowed to show Linus the demonstration “in an executive office, in an IBM lab, which was on IBM premises. And make sure that nobody took anything out so it wasn’t a distribution.”
Because the GPL lincense hasn’t changed at all since 1999 and there has been no case law on the issue on the legality of GPL licensing to-date —- the IBM legal opinion is still valid. What Lindows has done is clearly a distribution and thus must release the source code upon request.
This is the MAIN REASON why IBM does not and will never be a linux distributor — it carries too much legal risk of contaminating their own proprietary IP. Actions speaks louder than words — IBM knows “GPL is cancer” but it’s smart enough not to say it aloud. And IBM is smart enough to spend most of that billion dollars on linux projects that aren’t covered by GPL.
‘I do this because it’s FUN and because others might find it useful, not because I got religion’…
This is an idealogy…
FUN as an ideology….., what a wonderful idea!!!!! How about a distro called “FunLinux”?
>This is an idealogy…
no, this is a nonconscious emotion.
That would be a great name for a distro (make it a super newbie release, even more so then mandrake). I’d try that out, hell I’d pay to try that out (after reading a few reviews that is).