“I get asked, by more junior Linux users, and people just looking to try it out, which distribution of Linux I use or recommend. It occurred to me that I never actually published an answer to this question, even though it is, by far, the question I am asked most often. I think my stock answer is maybe slightly unusual only because, unlike most of the rest of the Linux-using world, I hate every distro I’ve ever tried. That’s right: every distribution of Linux sucks in its own special way. Some just suck less”, says Brian Jones on Linux.com.
Linux.com: “Which Distro Do You Recommend?” — They All Suck!
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
I’ve seen the Vic20 [briefly], about 20 odd years ago, and I agree with you that this thing rocks.
However, the Commodore 64 rocks a whole damn lot more than the Vic20. If ever there has been a machine where I enjoyed just about every square inch of material it has to be the C64. That machine knocked the socks off of everything in its price range in its prime. Without trying really hard.
The only machine that eclipsed even the vaunted C64 has got to be the Amiga, which is just about the most insanely great piece of consumer electronics anybody has ever put out, and I am including the iPod in that consideration. You have to be a very special kind of idiot like say, the Commodore Business Machines Inc. senior management team, to screw up a screaming success story like the Amiga. They were certainly very competent about that.
As far as Linux distros goes: I don’t get the point. If the weaknesses of all the distros are known together with their strong points… what is the logical conclusion… Come on, I know you can do logic, what’s the great solution…?
Until you manage to combine all the strong points into one Linux distro I’ll stick around OS X if you don’t mind. You know where you can find me.
“I have spent the last 2 days installing SuSE, VidaLinux, Fedora Core 3 and Ubuntu Linuxes (having also tried the latest Mandrake and Linspire Developer distros recently). All I want is to have a distro that’ll run with 3D accelerated graphics on my Radeon 9800.
With most of these distros I’ve been reduced to following highly cryptic instructions on various obscure unofficial forums, and although I’m a reasonably technical user, in not one single case have I ended up with working 3D drivers after the ridiculous amount of effort I’ve had to put into it for each distro!
This is utterly depressing, ruining some otherwise really decent looking distributions (eg. Ubuntu) and I look forward to the day when some new distro maker comes along who *couldn’t give a shit* about pleasing the ‘must be Free’ GPL people, creates a decent desktop and *does a deal with both Nvidia and ATI to provide working 3D drivers*, either on install or from a simple click-to-install download.
However, I’ll keep vainly trying various distros over the next year or two until one finally, magically decides to work… :/
(I want to like Linux but it hates my guts.) ”
___________________________________________________________
Couldn’t agree more with DruggedBunny.
Over the last month I’ve tried Mandrake, SUSE, Mepis, Ubuntu, Knoppix, Vidalinux, Vector Linux, and finally Debian Unstable using the latest beta installer which is what I’m running at the moment.
Every single one has defaulted to horribly slow and jerky software rendering mode with my ATI 9700pro. I have to go through this ridiculous performance ==> http://xoomer.virgilio.it/flavio.stanchina/debian/fglrx-installer.h… and there’s no chance of that working.
Why can’t this be automated? How on earth can people talk about Linux being ready for the desktop when driver installation is this retarded? Yes I’m sure there are many of you who can do this in your sleep, and see it as some sort of test of manliness and us mere mortals don’t deserve to use the sacred Linux until we have mastered the process but what about the rest of us 😉
Why isn’t there an apt-get type system for driver installation? Linux won’t be ready until you can achieve everything you can in Windows without needing the command prompt. Yes the prompt can still be there for people who love it and feel it’s more productive but the rest of us should be free of it.
Maybe Libranet 3’s admin menu will be what I’m looking for.
Now I’ve got that rant off my chest, I’ll go back to admiring glxgears and it’s 150fps
I agree with the author, but do not single out Linux distributions.
On a scale of 0 to 100, 0 zero being so bad that the operating system is untolerable to use and 100 being no noticable problems at all, I rate operating systems as follows:
Mac OS X – 40
Linux – 35
Windows XP – 15
That’s why Linux sux for me.
When I want to do something I know what I want to do, but if my specific situation isn’t covered in TLDP or in a HowTo that I can find by Googling there is no way of knowing how to do the task I want to do. At least not without becoming a command line ninja.
This is further confounded by the fact that you can’t even rely on your distribution to have the same tools or to be set up the same way as the one used in the HowTo.
There isn’t any way to learn Linux gradually by finding solutions as you need them, because sooner or later you’ll run into a problem that becomes a week-long gauntlet of terror.
I’m talking about problematic, complex to use drivers
This is not the fault of any of the distros, because the hardware vendors dont support them. This will not change, however hard the distributors try, when the hardware vendors detain their support.
and the lack of a consistent GUI.
Stick to a single DE, like you do in windows or in OS X, and youll have your “consistent” GUI.
http://www.deadtroll.com/video/ossuckscable.html
I’ve been saying this for years:
http://www.osnews.com/phorum/read.php?f=4&i=1845&t=1840#reply_1845
Two points: package management is poor and some distros don’t support all desktops. Did I pass out and miss a paragraph? (forget the one about 2.4 v 2.6 – it didn’t have a point).
It’s true most distros don’t “just work” for newbies but this article didn’t properly explain or examine that. It just lapsed into empty platitude. It is only notable for it’s comment-generating first paragraph.
It is a poor article, but it does articulate something I think many people do: the distro drift. I’ve done it, cycling through Gentoo,Debian,SuSE,Mandrake, Ubuntu, FC3, Arch,Slack etc. Each one always has some annoying problem, bug or behaviour.
I’m guessing you don’t use sound cards with your computers, you mentioned wifi, but yeah, My wifi cards only work on some distros “out-of-the-box.” My wifi cards are from 2002. I do love Knoppix and KDE & Gnome & iceWM (got a few old computers,) but the sound card support from Kernel 2.4.29–2.6.10 frankly sucks.
I’m talking about i810 (integrated PCI),
i810e (Integrated PCI),
Sound Blaster 512 PCI, Sound Blaster Audigy (PCI),
Sound Blaster AWE 64 Gold (ISA),
Whoever the hell VIA uses for sound (I guess VT8x5?)
and my Sound Blaster 32 (ISA) from 1996.
I do not have working sound out of the box on any debain distro for any of these cards. WinXP has no problem though (with the ISA and i810x cards–the PCI ones need drivers but work.)
Sound does work (PCI cards only) with Mandrake, but I can not give up Apt-get or synaptic.
I’ve been using linux based distros on and off since 2002.
“just so we are extra clear, the stallman types are free software guys, not opensource guys. there is a big difference. it isnt the free or opensource guys fault that the ABI is unstable (that would be our eccentric leader, linus). linux hardware support has been growing at an exponential rate for at least as long as ive been using it, currently it has surpassed windows for all but a few kinds of things (like pcmcia wifi cards). and if all you can get from modern day linux is an 80×25 terminal, you have got to be real dumb, because things like linspire are significantly easier to set up then windows.”
Give me a break! Those Enlightenment videos were ridiculous. If I wanted to see crappy effects like … christmas trees all over the desktop … or flames.. or “falling snow” (yawn) I would turn on my Commodore 64 and watch a demo that was made in 1986.
I was thinking more of the one with the moving desktop. However, you completely missed the point fo those demos, though: they were demos. And despite your arrogant tirade, you could no more do that with a Commodore 64 than you can do it with a Windows PC.
As far as the “usable” parts of enlightenment, it’s just straight up ugly.
Again, you miss the point. As such, enlightenment is a technology showcase, and at that it is pretty impressive.
There’s no elegance. The icons and click effects look like they were made by a 14 year old with a pirate version of Photoshop.
Now you’r just trolling.
Every time something new comes out, I’m always hopeful but desktop linux still seems so far away.
Far away from what? It’s already better than Windows, and has almost caught up with OS X.
So don’t talk about videos, when we all know that you haven’t even tried E17.
I’ll talk about what I damn well please, Lumbergh. If you weren’t able to compile enlightenment and went to pick up a fight with on the e irc channel, it’s your own problem.
The rest of your post didn’t make much sense except in the context of a lead-up to try to flame me. I guess you really are hitching for a fight, with anybody. Well, I’ll pass. I’ve had a great time demolishing your arguments in the past, but I’ve moved on now.
This doesn’t change anything to the fact that the e demo movies were very impressive, and show that X in itself isn’t a obstacle to innovation (which was the original point, which you completely missed it seems). Whether or not the e code builds is completely irrelevant.
it isnt driver installation, its the propriatary ati installation. its needlessly complex, and basically there so they can say they have linux drivers. i havnt bought ati since starting to use linux (to install nvidia drivers you just have to get out of x, run the installer, and change the nv driver entry in xorg.conf to nvidia. quite painless). and yes, i am blaming ati, because if nvidia can do it, so can they.
the reason their drivers suck is because they believe they dont have to care. stop buying ati, fire off an email saying why, and hopefully once enough people get fed up, they will actually start supporting linux.
Just saying that all linux distros suck is not very helpful response. In the past a lot of the UI’s in applications didn’t blend together well as different toolkits were used. If you take a look at Mandrake or Fedora linux 3 you can see they have done a great job making the UI’s consistent by using variations on Red Hat’s blue curve idea.
I use Fedora Core 3 linux everyday to do my office work (Open Office 2.0 beta), download/listen to music (RealPlayer 10), surf the web via Mozilla Firefox, burn CD’s via K3B, and run applications super fast using XFCE4.2 Window environment. So, it is possible to have a free, and very useful desktop linux. Granted it took a certain amount of tech. knowledge to setup Fedora 3 correctly.
This technical curve is what gives most linux newbies problems. If you look at the big picture and you really need to save money and you are doing just office work or programming then linux is the way to go if you can spare some time getting up to speed.
I definitely won’t be buying ATI again but can’t justify upgrading my graphics card at the moment to an Nvidia one just to run 2D office apps acceptably.
I’d say that FC3 sucks the least out of the distros I’ve used recently. It’s still extremely buggy, though.
Well, I have been using both Fedora at home and Ubuntu on my work laptop for awhile now.
Fedora’s package management system from rpm to yum next to the debian way and even with apt4rpm its not as fast or as consistent with dependency resolution unless you limit yourself to a few repos.
up2date and the Install/Remove apps tools that come with Fedora out of the box are either slow or in the case of the Install/Remove program useless because it is tied to only the apps on the CD.
SMART Package Manager is the only tool that comes close to Synaptics/dpkg in terms of package management.
The only other thing about Fedora that has suckage is the lack of restricted module package like you have in Ubuntu. It is a pain to have to re-compile madwifi everytime I get a kernel update. A pain.
But ….
I use Fedora Core 3 every day and I plug in my Nikon 4100 camera and gthumb pops up in 5 secs or so and asks me to import my pictures.
gtkpod takes care of my iPod. CUPS and gnome-photo-printer takes care of printing on photo paper for my family’s pictures from the HP 8150 Photo Printer.
In general if the Fedora community came out with a better resticted modules type package and if RH/Fedora put together a package management system that did not rot. Then and only then would I say that Fedora was the tops.
It would be nice to have more optimized packages too btw. The Fedora Faq already has the how to do I get decent multimedia stuff taken care of and where to get plugins and all that.
Ubuntu just needs more of the gnome-systems tools like runlevel-admin for stop and starting services and boot-admin for modifying grub and firestarter included out of the box. And it needs a script to get most of the things mentioned in the Ubuntuguide right away. Unlike Fedora many apps are just not available on that one CD.
I would say that Ubuntu is almost the perfect customizable desktop because there are sooo many packages available but by default comes with so little.
This gives a person that knows what they want a ton of flexibility.
Now, for the commercial distros I still hear that Xandros rocks.
mostly every os even windos an mac whatever sux in sum way. wit one simple command on my debian install i was able to make it not suck though. apt-get remove menu. whoever designed the way pretty much every os organizes stuff in the ‘start’ menu should be shot in the head. now i write my own menus in debian and am very happy with it.
‘ll talk about what I damn well please, Lumbergh. If you weren’t able to compile enlightenment and went to pick up a fight with on the e irc channel, it’s your own problem.
Once again, you have a reading comprehension problem. I was able to compile the entire E17 software stack. It just doesn’t work. And read again, I didn’t go there to pick a fight. I explained the problem, as did another person that came in that had the exact same problem as I did, and is typical with immature zealots (you should know about that), they threw hissy fits.
This doesn’t change anything to the fact that the e demo movies were very impressive,
Anybody can make a movie. But in your zealotry, you forget that a movie doesn’t make something that people can use on their desktops. E17 has been worked on for 5 years now.
and show that X in itself isn’t a obstacle to innovation (which was the original point, which you completely missed it seems)
No, I didn’t miss the point. I agree that X is fine, but then you bring up E17 as if a movie counts. The movie even didn’t look that good.
Whether or not the e code builds is completely irrelevant.
Once again, take a reading comprehension course. The code did build, it just doesn’t work.
I’d say that FC3 sucks the least out of the distros I’ve used recently. It’s still extremely buggy, though.
I use Fedora Core 3 everyday and I rarely run into bugs. Once in a while Firefox will crash or realplayer will stop working but those are application bugs not Fedora bugs. One of the secrets/tips to a smooth Fedora experience is to learn how to use Yum correctly. Update your system regularly to get bug fixes using the command “yum update” or “yum check-update”. The bugs people see are mostly KDE and Gnome bugs I think. Once you feel comfortable using linux and the shell try switching to XFCE4.2. It rarely crashes and runs most GTK applications incredibly fast.
Admittedly, I do not use it, but I hear this repeated so often, and there is nary a word on what is wrong with it. As I understand it, They barely touch it nowadays, and yes, I supported them removing the about KDE dialogs from the menus of KDE apps.
For one thing it is incomplete. The most important thing that I’m missing is kuser that is one of the few GUIs to LDAP based user management there is.
Maybe I’m just unlucky with FC3, but here is my list of recent bugs:
– last-but-one gamin upgrade made unmounting USB storage devices impossible (fixed after a fortnight with the latest upgrade)
– the kernel back in Dec 2004 or so prevented Palm devices connecting to the computer at all. This was fixed eventually.
– gnome-pilot corrupts data on many palms when syncing, generally creating two copies of every entry in my contacts and to do list.
– write an email in evolution. Move the cursor to a few characters from the start of a line of text and press tab. Watch the display screw up
– Maximise xemacs in metacity and it enters an infinite loop of redrawing itself
– Nautilus frequently crashes on start up
– logging out with a USB storage volume mounted would require manually killing gam_server to unmount it afterwards (this is probably fixed now)
– Eye of Gnome currently crashes frequently when trying to view images from nautilus
– gnome-mixer has been showing some strange behaviour recently, refusing to respond to keyboard volume controls and mysteriously muting the PCM channel
– Endless minor annoyances, like: minimised windows are shown incorrectly in the workspace switcher as restored if you log out and log in again
YMMV, of course, but that’s what I’ve found. Ubuntu was no better, so I’m sticking with FC3 until I find a better alternative.
I realise that most of those bugs were GNOME bugs, but FC3 is supposed to be a flagship GNOME desktop – many gnome developers work for redhat, after all. You’d think that they might patch the bugs.
I agree 100% with this article, the guy has hit the nail on the head. I’ve used most of the major distros and found nothing ever works properly. Okay, I enjoy tinkering around, but sometimes things just really piss me off, such as the package management in Gentoo, harassing me because I want to install a bloody unstable package, even though I have changed a config file to do so. I then post on a forum and get called a nOOb and I should be using Google or search before I post (Even though their stupid search brings up all the wrong results). I want an answer to a problem, not have to search endlessly on droaning forums and stupid howto sites. My answer to that is f**k off, I’ll try another distro, so I try Debian/Ubuntu, and then apt-get ends up broken or the package I want to install breaks another package, everyones answer to that is, go and compile it yourself, my answer to that is reinstall Windows and use the version with that, its thousands of times better.
I also own a Powerbook, and although I think the finder is a pile of wank, at least it works out of the box. Installing software is simple and its secure. If only I could easily buy games and software for it down the local supermarket, like I can for the PC.
Windows is the nicest and easiest to use, although the constant security issues drive me insane.
Take me back to the days of my Commodore 64!!!
“But…Linux GUIs truly suck big time. I dont know how Linux users do it. I mean it is horrible…slow and clunky. Yeesh! I think so far OS X has the GUI right but then again I am quiet used to XPs GUI as well.”
what the FSCK are you talking about? I am FAR FAR more productive with the K desktop than windows or OSX can provide. as for it being slow and clunky? WTF? is your experience from a live cd? of course it’s gonna be slow and clunky from a cd. KDE and GNOME run worlds faster than windows anything on the same speed computer.
as for the ugly comments, you do realize you can change the default them in KDE and GNOME if you don’t like them?
I would agree with the article for the most part, I find suse 9.x the best distro with apt4rpm. (the best of both worlds, the awesome suse plugger with the awesomeness of apt.)
one area I think linux can make DRASTIC improvements is in hardware. getting any none SANED scanner installed sucks ass.
I’ve spent too much time going over a zillion distros searching for the ‘perfect’ or most ideal OS. Started off buying into some hardcore BSD advocacy (http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php), and when the real world implementations didn’t work out for me, I moved onto Linux and the myriad versions offered. Even tried QNX for a bit (which, unlike many Linux distros I tried, had sound working right ‘out of the box.’).
Anywhats, perhaps Matz, the creator of the Ruby language said it best:
“I emphasize the feeling, in particular, how I feel using Ruby. I didn’t work hard to make Ruby perfect for everyone, because you feel differently from me. No language can be perfect for everyone. I tried to make Ruby perfect for me, but maybe it’s not perfect for you. The perfect language for GuidoVanRossum is probably Python.”
Use what ‘fits’ you best.
“This is utterly depressing, ruining some otherwise really decent looking distributions (eg. Ubuntu) and I look forward to the day when some new distro maker comes along who *couldn’t give a shit* about pleasing the ‘must be Free’ GPL people, creates a decent desktop and *does a deal with both Nvidia and ATI to provide working 3D drivers*, either on install or from a simple click-to-install download.”
What do you expect for free? If you actually bothered to _pay_ for the _non-freely-redistributable_ product you’re asking for, you’d get it. Mandrakelinux and SuSE at least both include the commercial ATI driver in their paid-for packages. Buy one and shut up.
If he bought the card, then why the hell should he have to pay for the privelege of having the driver as part of the OS.
I never thought OS X and XP would trigger it.
The fact is: Everybody wants to put together a Linux distribution, but very few add anything to the world of Linux.
Putting together a theme for KDE or Gnome does not count.
Putting together an applet that allows you to edit your “httpd.conf” does not count either. Etc.
It seems to show that a business model is required to have a truly focused development effort.
Apple has accomplished more with BSD in the past 2 years than the Linux community in the past 5 years.
I couldn’t of put it better myself. There are so many Linux distributions that it hurts my head, so many different projects all aiming for the same thing, 6000 different office suites and 40 different desktops, non-consistent applications. Maybe oneday, someone will pick out all of the best bits out of every distro and make the ultimate working distro. Then we might see some progress.
Anonymous wrote:
> Everything in the whole wide universe, including the universe itself, sucks in at least one special way.
You should have signed that one.
Obviously he’s never heard of the ENGLISH forums at http://suselinuxsupport.de.
http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/
linux does suck but that too depends
on your point of view on what you what from an os????
so lets make it clear ask yourself”what do you want from an os????games =windows (yes i know i can get games on linux but there are far fewer right?)mabbee that might change one day i hope… productivity = well both linux and windows(but more programs in windows)…fiddling and typing more =linux(frustrating doing bash shit,why can’t it be like the days dos is dead in windows)ok if you like that too; as i said depends on what u want from an os…all i want is something that works in almost every situation ,why can’t linux be for people to have more fun and not limited to mostly just business people??linux should be easier for everyone to understand,try getting a kid to use linux ???
please don’t tell me theres easier to use linux’s i know, but when you get to their core they can be a complexed pain in the bum at times.
Finalzone, this is THE WRONG WAY. Linux doesn’t needs more fragmentation. If you think something in Linux is wrong, you can talk to developers. You can join other people thinking like yourself, and do your voice sound louder. You can look for alternatives, encourage and support them and spread the word; you can do A LOT of good things. But making yet another one-man Linux distro? Not, thanks.
Linux is great partly because users can reach developers easily. Why not use this big advantage?
Far away from what? It’s already better than Windows, and has almost caught up with OS X.
I’ve seen many people doing that kind of claims, but nobody backing it up firmly. In what Linux is better than Windows? We’re talking of desktop usage as it’s the focus of this discussion.
I’ve tried quite a bunch of distros since 1997 and while recent ones have more out-of-the-box functionalities than Windows, I don’t find them better, especially once you need more functionalities. Not worse, but definitely not better. Enough to annoy me. I mess with Linux but I work with Windows (save for server usage, since Linux is better than Windows for my needs, let alone cheaper).
Once again, you have a reading comprehension problem.
Once again, you come in looking for a fight and insult those who disagree with you instead of presenting valid arguments.
I was able to compile the entire E17 software stack. It just doesn’t work.
To me, compiling something that doesn’t work is synonymous with not successfully compiling it. But since you’re nitpicking, let me rephrase what I said: If you weren’t able to produce a working build of enlightenment and went to pick up a fight with on the e irc channel, it’s your own problem.
And read again, I didn’t go there to pick a fight. I explained the problem, as did another person that came in that had the exact same problem as I did, and is typical with immature zealots (you should know about that), they threw hissy fits.
Well, if you had the same attitude you so often display in these comment sections (i.e. arrogant and bellicose) then it’s no wonder they told you to stop bugging them.
Guess what, I tried to build e myself and it didn’t work. Did I go complain to the developers? No, I just said “oh well, I’ll wait until it’s out of alpha stage.” I’m not really interested in using e day-to-day, I just want to play with it. I’m ready to wait a little bit more for that.
Anybody can make a movie. But in your zealotry, you forget that a movie doesn’t make something that people can use on their desktops. E17 has been worked on for 5 years now.
That is completely besides the point, but I understand you needed to insult me some more.
I know e isn’t ready. I know people can’t use it on their desktops. I know its development is slow. That is completely irrelevant to the point I was making – unless you are suggesting that Rasterman faked those movies, in which case I will ask you to provide proof for your accusations, or politely ask you to refrain from making any more unsubstantiated allegations (which will be a real challenge for you, I understand).
No, I didn’t miss the point. I agree that X is fine, but then you bring up E17 as if a movie counts. The movie even didn’t look that good.
Yes, you did miss the point, because the movie does indeed count unless you claim that it’s a fake. Otherwise it’s proof that X can be used to do some cool bleeding-edge stuff, even if it won’t run on your machine.
For the record, I though the movie looked fantastic (despite the frame rate issue), and so did the vast majority of posters when the story was published here.
Once again, take a reading comprehension course. The code did build, it just doesn’t work.
I can comprehend just fine – especially considering that english is a second language for me. To me a build that doesn’t work is not a successful build.
Peut-être devrait-on continuer la discussion en français pour que je puisse juger de ta propre compréhension, ducon?
keep in mind that linux is mainly a server OS and works well for what it does. It’s also good for a developer workstation.
gotta stay true to the server audience. i would sure hate if he concentrated on the deskop as i run it for servers. microsoft windows has been invading linux on the server side recently (yes, they both are growing but windows is growing reasonably hig since win 2k3)
I’ve seen many people doing that kind of claims, but nobody backing it up firmly. In what Linux is better than Windows?
More customizable, for starters. Konqueror and kio slaves, for second. Nicer AA fonts at large resolutions, too (not just for apps, but for the UI as well). FreeType 2 beats ClearType anyday.
User tests have demonstrated that users were able to use Gnome/KDE very quickly, without a significant drop in usability, and that in less than a day.
But let me put the question differently, since I was responding to people who say that Linux has a lot to do to catch up with the Windows desktop (in terms of usability, not market share): in what way is the XP desktop easier than a well-configured KDE or Gnome desktops (like the one offered by Mandrake, with a cleaned-up main and contextual menus)?
After all, the burden of proof is on them as much as me…
I work with Windows because I don’t have a choice, but I like the KDE UI a lot better.
Adding to SuSE 9.2’s general suckiness:
After a set of updates in January, my SuSE box randomly started freezing in X for no reason every 10 minutes or so if I’m in KDE or GNOME. I now have a laptop right next to my desk so that I can ssh in and kill X. I have not been able to solve this problem despite posting the issue on linuxquestions, nvnews and other forums. Instead, I’ve switched to enlightenment and icewm where this problem does not occur so frequently. I have no idea how to debug this problem since the logs don’t show anything.
As for xine, kaffeine, mjpegtools etc., I deleted them and installed the packman ones via apt. At least that part works well.
Also, SuSE 9.2 seems very slow. Even after disabling ipv6 (and don’t get me started on that fiasco), firefox takes a few minutes to open linuxtoday.com whereas firefox on Windows XP Pro on the same machine opens the page immediately. Everything seems slow as molasses in KDE and GNOME. Enlightenment and icewm feel a bit faster but nowhere near Windows XP Pro’s speed on the same machine.
Contemplating switching to Windows XP Pro. Trouble is, I’ve never used Windows (since I moved from Solaris to linux), so I don’t know how difficult it’ll be to learn a new OS.
Hardware: AMD Athon MP 2000+ single CPU, Tyan Thunder K7 S2462 dual AMD motherboard, nVidia GeForce Ti 4200 AGP card, 512MB memory
Software: SuSE 9.2 Pro with updates applied via YaST, nvidia 6629 driver. [No newer X, KDE packages etc. installed from Novell/SuSE]
Anand
im using fedora as i type this post.. its reasonable. the problem is there are so many damn distros and package systems out there. They dont even have yahoo messenger for fedora yet. firefox won’t even install correctly when i run the install script.
There’s a lot of factors. a lot of times you have to compile your own apps or untar and learn where to put things.
and then.. you have to worry about dependencies.
people think they solved these problems through ports achieves and so on but you know, there are plenty more apps than what is located in a ports archieve.
it’s all really frustrating. but i am experienced and have managed to use it effectively.
btw: I use linux desktops for customer support. I think they are ideal for company desktop usage. Because companies don’t need all this stuff home users do.
So I think It’s ideal for companies but not home usage. I think it’s ideal for developing, but not multimedia.
Companies can simply maintain their own ports list and have their own update service in-house. .. very useful. and you dont hav eto worry about all those nasty programs that get installed on their machines (And viruses) since most of the stuff on linux aren’t compatible with another distro
So, I had to test out this piece of software the other day and I booted my PC into Windows XP and just as the desktop was loading IE crashed and a window popped-up asking me to send a bug report to Microsoft. I kind of chuckled a bit as I dismissed the error window. I distrust the security on Windows so much I have the network devices disabled on boot up. I just thought it was kind of fitting. Here is a virgin Windows XP installation that is rarely used and has no other third part software installed on it and bam! it crashes on startup. It just makes me wonder how good Microsoft’s programming and testing is on their products.
If linux is supposed to suck so much then why do I feel safe with my FREE iptables firewall running, with security enhanced kernel running, with the Mozilla Firefox browser running with no possibility it could download or install VBScript viruses? Hmm. Imagine that. A system that can run for about a year without a reboot, or without spyware being cleaned off that is painful to remove…
[quote]Contemplating switching to Windows XP Pro. Trouble is, I’ve never used Windows (since I moved from Solaris to linux), so I don’t know how difficult it’ll be to learn a new OS.[/quote]
If you have any problems with Windows, drop a note at http://forums.techguy.org/
we try to solve your problem if you face one
I use both LInux and XP Pro. XP Pro is actually not that bad. After you install it check the services running and disable messaging and everything else which you don’t need to increase security.
Also, be aware that XP installs defaulting to an administrative account. After disabling services setup a ‘limited’ user account and make sure password protection is enabled for all your accounts. Then only use the limited account to work in. Switch to admin account to install stuff. This will keep you virus and spyware free for the most part.
is the only OS that I truly *link*. The rest are OK.
is the only OS that I truly *like*. The rest are OK.
Great comment, it is a great way to put how I fell in words. OS X looks great and if it was for PC, I would try it. Why is it that noone in to Open Source community will make a sugestion to make linux apps easier? Maybe it theaten them to have a OS anyone can use? I don’t want a hand everything to you Linux OS, but a more GUI spcific user-friendly distro would be great. I don’t shouldn’t have to compile any software.
Give Mandrake 10.1 a try. You’ll get lots of easy apps (including MPlayer, K3B and other great Linux apps), you’ll have GUI tools to configure just about any aspect of your distro, and you won’t have to compile any software (due to the very large amount of apps found in the Mandrake software repositories, including contrib and plf).
EVERY distro sucks BIG TIME! Still, I try to use the ones that suck much less than others
Does this means that we are all SUCKERS? 
I was addressing to the author point of article that seems to imply all Linux distros suck. Concerning fragmentation, you will notice that most of Linux distros are based from the original (Fedora/Red Hat, Debian, Suse and Gentoo).
To me, compiling something that doesn’t work is synonymous with not successfully compiling it.
Then you maybe you need to take a computer 101 course. Because that statement is laughable.
//My fonts are AA (as has been the norm for the last couple of years) unlike on the fonts on XP which has seriously ugly font handling.//
Uh .. ClearType fonts in Windows XP are “ugly?”
Drunk, stupid, or stoned you are.
Also, be aware that XP installs defaulting to an administrative account. After disabling services setup a ‘limited’ user account and make sure password protection is enabled for all your accounts. Then only use the limited account to work in. Switch to admin account to install stuff. This will keep you virus and spyware free for the most part.
To bad a LOT of programs for Windows don’t work with the limited user account. Even for stuff like Quicken, you are forced to use the Admin mode to run the program.
I believe that this is currently the biggest problem regarding Window’s security (and is a big reason I use Linux).
//Binary drivers are one of the big reasons why Windows has horrible stability.//
What the hell version of Windows are you using? 95/98/ME ?
And are you using third-rate craptacular hardware?
I first installed Windows XP home three years ago on my box.
Since then: about 10 lockups, spread over *36 MONTHS* usually due to overclocking my vid card.
Leave the “Windows has horrible stability!” tripe at the door. It’s simply not true in 2005.
Even after disabling ipv6 (and don’t get me started on that fiasco), firefox takes a few minutes to open linuxtoday.com whereas firefox on Windows XP Pro on the same machine opens the page immediately
How would you know?
Contemplating switching to Windows XP Pro. Trouble is, *I’ve never used Windows* (since I moved from Solaris to linux), so I don’t know how difficult it’ll be to learn a new OS.
Firefox is indeed significant faster on XP-PRO than on SuSE, (pages are loaded in a third of the time needed on SuSE)
Once stripped out SuSE firewall2 and replaced by shorewall things aren’t that bad anymore,better to configure anyway.
Would be nice if they would port the windows driver that controls the hardware firewall of the nforce3-250 mobo’s to linux or unix/bsd(Apache gets installed with the driver),or as module integrated into webmin.
Contemplating switching to Windows XP Pro. Trouble is, I’ve never used Windows (since I moved from Solaris to linux), so I don’t know how difficult it’ll be to learn a new OS.
Piece a cake if you can realy handle both Linux and Solaris.
When can we expect a Windows sucks thread?
//Far away from what? It’s already better than Windows, and has almost caught up with OS X.//
Too bad that the best product frequently loses. Poll 100 people who use computers on a regular basis. My guess is that 95 of them use Windows. And if you told them that “KDE on SuSE is better!” they’d likely give you a blank stare, and mutter “what a geek” as they buy their off-the-shelf software which will work flawlessly on their system.
And that ain’t gonna change for a loooooooong time.
Plus, your opinion that the Linux desktop is “better than Windows” is 100% subjective, and a minority view (by far). But, you’re entitled to it.
Idiots can throw their money in the garbage, I’d rather take the educated approach and use Linux.
“Leave the “Windows has horrible stability!” tripe at the door.”
Really? I have Windows kicking me out of apps all the time. I have IE freezing up. I have all reason that people are saying Linux sucks for, on Windows. You add in the mix that Windows has a 15,000 man division working on it as opposed to the kernal team or your average Linux distributor, so what’s so impressive about Windows “stability”?
WindowsXP is better than Windows98 but it still sucks. Go ahead and use Windows, by all means, but live with the high cost and medium quality. I’d rather use Linux and have everything that I want, after doing some experiementation and learning. Windows is not even an option.
The biggest hang up that makes most computer literate people stumble regarding Linux is the question, “How do I make money by writing open source software?” Anyone who has used Linux can figure out how to get what they want out of it, except that they might have some trouble with Nvidia or the latest hardware, that’s why you should use older hardware with Linux, and keep things simple, you can do your digital camera, ipod (apparently), photo manipulation, internet, custom apps, DVD, etc all with Linux for free…and more.
When you know how to program you have to use it as a tool at your job. You might not be in the business of software, but in any job, you can use your software development skills, to write custom applications, and apply that knowledge directly where the other guy who does not know how to program can only use prefabricated product line software. You should want to avoid that kind of software, and take control, apply your own knowledge. Keep it simple, cheap, effective, and under your own control. That is the only way to get ahead, in any endeavour, not just programming. That’s what Linux allows you to do. Who the hell cares about Microsoft or how much junk they sell, that’s not my concern, I’m more concerned about my own financial status, and my own ability to write the software that I need.
//I have Windows kicking me out of apps all the time. I have IE freezing up//
Likely you have cheap hardware, old hardware, improper driver configs, or riddled with spyware. Or all four.
Just with personal experience: Using high quality hardware, consistent patching/updating, antivirus, firewall. Xp gives me no problems. Many others have the same experience, but ymmv.
“Even after disabling ipv6 (and don’t get me started on that fiasco), firefox takes a few minutes to open linuxtoday.com whereas firefox on Windows XP Pro on the same machine opens the page immediately”
How would you know?
Windows XP Pro came installed on my machine. I’ve installed linux as a dual boot. I’ve tested firefox’s speed by trying to load pages in SuSE 9.2, have them take a long while and then boot to windows and then load the same pages in firefox. The same page that wouldn’t load quickly in linux usually loads very quickly in Windows XP Pro.
Anand
I had the same experience,seems more a SuSE related one.Debian,Ubuntu,Fedora,FreeBSD..are to my experience not affected.One thing that’s worth mentioning is the improper behaviour when downloading dvd images with Firefox.So far as i have witnessed only Konqueror didn’t count the data down to infinite minus,and started with the correct file size from the beginning.
“Likely you have cheap hardware, old hardware, improper driver configs, or riddled with spyware. Or all four.”
The hardware excuse is a load of bull, and frankly I’m tired of hearing it in this forum. ALL hardware is designed to run Windows and pretty much nothing else, which you find out when you try and run an alternate OS. The hardware companies can’t suck up hard enough or fastest enough to MS. That being the case and the fact that Windows comes pre-installed in machines makes for a less than impressive display on Microsoft’s part. If I have to worry about what hardware I’m using, which OEM I’m buying from, then I’m right back to the problems of using Linux. Cheap hardware in a $650 machine. How much should a person have to spend on hardware to run Windows? No, the hardware excuse simply doesn’t work.
As for spyware, we keep it down to a reasonable amount. But of course, if any amount is too much, then we’d have to start addressing Windows security.
Way back a few years ago when I used Windows, I got tired of updating it all of the time and having to defrag and other work. As soon as I stopped doing that the system quickly fell apart. With Linux I only update the kernel every three or four months and than reboot, and the system is stable and reliable. There is almost no maintainance. Running servers is another story because it doesn’t matter what platform you use, you have to constantly keep up to date with security issues.
Windows is too much hardache for me. I would end up throwing my computer out of the window in frustration.
And that is not even mentioning the cost of running Windows, the anti-virus, the product activation nightmares, bloat, etc.
//Cheap hardware in a $650 machine. How much should a person have to spend on hardware to run Windows? No, the hardware excuse simply doesn’t work. //
Well, that’s your perogative, I guess. All it takes is a bit of research, really. You can easily buy *extremely reliable* parts to build a wicked fast box for $650. And you likely wouldn’t have all the problems you describe. I know I don’t, and I didn’t even top $600 on my built-by-me machine.
To each his own. If it’s not worth your time to search for the best hardware for your budget, then I’d suggest you buy a Mac mini — solid performance for about $600. I’d get one myself, but I’ve already invested lotsa dough in Win32 apps.
Is the hardware in PCs from makers like Dell, Gateway and Compaq cheap? Does the average consumer have a choice of quality hardware when buying from those makers? Has anyone suffered hang-ups, freezes and other quirks with PCs from those makers? I own a gateway which has Windows XP Home that sufferes from freezes here and there. If I run a linux live CD on it, there is no feezes except for the slowness of the CD Drive.
How many people build their own PCs and actually install Windows XP? I have two custom built PCs that run Linux. Everytime I build a PC, I just can not find a good excuse to buy Windows XP for it.
The hardware I buy seems to work fine for Linux. What could possibly be wrong with Windows XP that it is so sensitive about hardware?
What is most interesting is that Microsoft created the market for cheap hardware by becoming the standard OS. A good example is WinModems.
If only hardware and software developers would communicate accurate APIs may be some of these little bugs would go away.
//The hardware I buy seems to work fine for Linux. What could possibly be wrong with Windows XP that it is so sensitive about hardware? //
Heh … well, the hardware *I* buy seems to work fine with Windows XP. What could possibly be wrong with Linux (SuSe, MDrake, Ubuntu, Lycoris that I’ve tried) that it is so sensitive about hardware? (especially sound cards).
//If only hardware and software developers would communicate accurate APIs may be some of these little bugs would go away.//
I wholeheartedly agree, but unless there’s some incentive to do so, it likely won’t happen. Maybe the Mac Mini will help the situation, being a low-cost alternative.
The only reason why you need new video hardware is for gaming. The video card is the primary source of hardware incompatibility. Gaming on Linux is not there yet, maybe it never will be, or maybe it will, who knows. I use a console like Xbox or PS2 for gaming so it’s not an issue for me.
Notebook systems can also be problematic with Linux, the power management and bios issues, although things are looking better in this area as of the last six months or so.
I’ve always just used older systems that once ran Windows and Linux has worked well on them. I basically pay nothing for hardware and software.
You can buy a good sound card for Linux for $20.
Long time ago, at least five years ago, when I used Windows, I purchased Office as well as a number of Microsoft books. I spent at least a thousand dollars or more like fifteen hundred, and did not end up getting value out of it. I’ve never done that with Linux, it’s served me incredibly well. I have not gone without anything, except heart ache since my conversion.
This is not the fault of any of the distros, because the hardware vendors dont support them. This will not change, however hard the distributors try, when the hardware vendors detain their support.
Who’s fault it is doesn’t matter to me, it doesn’t change the problem at all. What matters to me is that I’d have to replace half my hardware (some of it with inferior components) to be able to run Linux. Compared with that, the cost of Windows upgrades every few years doesn’t seem so bad.
Stick to a single DE, like you do in windows or in OS X, and youll have your “consistent” GUI.
If I was just using my PC for internet access and MP3 playing then that would be fine. But I need to be able to create documents and work with images. Maybe in a few years there’ll be plenty of apps for the main DEs, but at the moment neither KDE or GNOME have the apps I need.
Far away from what? It’s already better than Windows,
Maybe if you’re talking about Windows 3.1
and has almost caught up with OS X.
In the same way that a push bike can “almost” catch up with a Ferrari…
Then you maybe you need to take a computer 101 course. Because that statement is laughable.
The end result is the same, and that’s really what matters, isn’t it?
Please, do carry on with your personal attacks.
“Well, that’s your perogative, I guess. All it takes is a bit of research, really. You can easily buy *extremely reliable* parts to build a wicked fast box for $650. And you likely wouldn’t have all the problems you describe. I know I don’t, and I didn’t even top $600 on my built-by-me machine.”
You couldn’t possibly be serious. Are you reading what you’re posting here? Now, not only do I have spend $600, but I have to build it myself?? Think about that. All this for a Windows-compatible machine?
See, the issue here is not that Windows is a POS, it’s that the same complaints used against Linux can also apply to it. Hardware problems, etc.
Plus, your opinion that the Linux desktop is “better than Windows” is 100% subjective, and a minority view (by far)
You can’t really say it’s a minority view, because people can’t judge what they don’t know. The main problem with Linux is still visibility.
And if you told them that “KDE on SuSE is better!” they’d likely give you a blank stare
Actually I’d give them a Live CD and say “try it out!” Most people won’t stick with it, but a few will, and that’s enough for me.
Too bad that the best product frequently loses.
It’s not a matter of “winning” or “losing”. Linux’ desktop market share continues to grow, and the technology continues to improve at a breakneck pace. That’s really all that matters.
What matters to me is that I’d have to replace half my hardware (some of it with inferior components) to be able to run Linux.
What hardware components would that be? I’m curious, because all of my excellent hardware works flawlessly with Linux.
It seems to me that all you’re doing here is spreading FUD.
Maybe if you’re talking about Windows 3.1
No, I’m talking about Windows XP. In my opinion, KDE 3.3 is a better Desktop Environment than Windows XP. More customizable, better integration (kio_slaves and Konqueror are a hard combination to beat), better fonts.
In the same way that a push bike can “almost” catch up with a Ferrari…
The only advantage OS X has over KDE 3.3 on X is that Macs have double-buffered desktop, which means redraws that seem marginally faster. This has been solved with the Damage extension to X, and should be commonplace among Linux distros soon. For the rest, KDE is every bit as mature as OS X is (and in fact you can theme it so it is virtually identical to it, including having the app menu bar at the top of the screen for those who like it).
Meanwhile, instead of using car cliches (I thought those had been completely banned from reasonable conversation?), you should provide concrete examples that show fundamental problems with KDE that make it a lesser desktop than WinXP…remember “cluttered menus” is not valid because a distro can easily unclutter these (Mandrake has done a good job of this so far). I’m talking real technological advantages of WinXP over KDE as a desktop environment.
//You couldn’t possibly be serious. Are you reading what you’re posting here? Now, not only do I have spend $600, but I have to build it myself?? //
Er, no … My point about spending $600 (which really isn’t a whole hell of a lot of money for a PC) is that you can, indeed, get a rock-solid performer running XP for that price. Yes, you’d have to build it yourself, which would take all of one afternoon, if that.
So, is it your position, then, that *EVERY LAST OEM BOX* (from Dell, Gateway, whatever) that costs <$600 will constantly lockup, crash, and have problems with Windows XP?
I can’t subscribe to that theory. I’ve seen many such boxes run just fine, if properly administered.
If there’s a PEBKAC that’s doing the damage, it won’t matter which hardware/OS combo you use.
//I’m talking real technological advantages of WinXP over KDE as a desktop environment.//
Well … I’d say the fact that I can buy one of thousands of software programs right off the shelf at any computer store I wander into, and have it work on XP, is a bit of an advantage.
That’s probably not important to you. But I’d venture it *is* important to the vast majority of folks who use computers.
If you own an ATI based card then, in Linux good luck. Get a Nvidia card. Both Arch Linux and Ubuntu have repositoies for the Nvidia driver which is a piece of piss to install.
Running Arch Linux and I have great 3D acceleration on my Ti4400 Nvidia card. Ut2004 runs a treat under Linux and I love it for the mod Red Orchestra. A comparo between XP Pro and Arch is that under Windows I can run UT/RO at 1024 x 768 with highest details but have to use DirectX due to poor OpenGL support and window res switching in XP. In Arch I run 1280 x 1024 for UT/RO with the same highest settings and it is very playable. Not only that but I can stream media over the net and play online with no lag which I can’t under Windows XP.
My only beef is the hap hazzard Nview support under the current Nvidia drivers but that is a work in progress and I expect the capabilities to be there next release in the control panel app they have under Linux.
Fonts on Linux are a lot better using Gnome 2.8 than under Windows XP on my 17″ LCD. Both are tuned for LCD but ClearType “tm” is not as clear or smooth as the aa fonts in X-Org.
Sound is hap hazzard under Windows XP with the Prosumer C-Port DSP24 not being decently supported under Windows XP causing app issues and OS crashes. Under Linux with ALSA it is a dream and works very well but I am still holding out for the Linux audio apps to get there but they are developing very well.
If you want a trouble free desktop that is a piece of piss to install then try Ubuntu Hoary which worked effortlessly. Just not as clean as Arch although Arch setup requires a little in effort. As far as effort to maintain Linux = 10 out of 10 for ease of maintenance and WindowsXP = 1-2 out of 10. XP constantly requires maintenance for optimal performance and setting Windows XP up for Audio is more tiresome than any Linux OS setup. So for audio work, my preference is Linux even though there isn’t as much Audio software out there, it works, XP doesn’t.
NEXT . . . .
Well … I’d say the fact that I can buy one of thousands of software programs right off the shelf at any computer store I wander into, and have it work on XP, is a bit of an advantage.
That’s not an advantage of the desktop itself. Many people would argue that OS X is a better desktop than Windows XP, despite the fact that it doesn’t have the same volume of commercial apps. The same could be said of the Xbox, which is superior to the PlayStation 2, yet has less titles for it.
However, I’ll take you up on it and say that most commercial apps for Windows have perfectly good replacements on Linux, and that it is possible to run most of the popular Windows apps on Linux through Wine (I myself use MS Office and Quicken, which both run flawlessly on my Linux box).
So, despite the fact that your example was off the mark, it’s also not quite valid. Except for some very specific apps (most of which are only used in highly specialized contexts), you can do pretty much everything on a Linux box that you’d do on a Windows one.
Now, can you give me examples of how the Windows XP desktop environment is better than, say, KDE 3.3? This was my original question, to which you have yet to answer.
The last paragraph is well written. Newbies take note.
What hardware components would that be? I’m curious, because all of my excellent hardware works flawlessly with Linux.
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro (I’ve had no luck getting a dual headed display working properly with this card), Hercules Digifire 7.1 and E-mu 1212.
No, I’m talking about Windows XP. In my opinion, KDE 3.3 is a better Desktop Environment than Windows XP. More customizable, better integration (kio_slaves and Konqueror are a hard combination to beat), better fonts.
KDE is fine if you run nothing but KDE apps, but it becomes a total mess if you need to mix in apps that weren’t created for that DE. Even Windows 3.1 allowed you to consistently copy and paste between apps, yet that’s broken between some of the most popular Linux apps.
For the rest, KDE is every bit as mature as OS X is (and in fact you can theme it so it is virtually identical to it, including having the app menu bar at the top of the screen for those who like it).
That would be a really useful feaure if it worked in all Linux apps. But since it only works with KDE apps it just adds to the inconsistency.
I’m talking real technological advantages of WinXP over KDE as a desktop environment.
Consistent applications – this has a much bigger effect on my ability to get a task done than any number of little UI tweaks. The variety of KDE apps is far too limited for me to make to with nothing else. Why isn’t there even a standard clipboard for copy and paste of data between apps?
Consistent graphical configuration – in Windows I can control all my hardware from graphical control panels and system tray tools. In Linux I have to deal with a mix of distribution specific utilities, KDE/GNOME tools, 3rd party utilities, and config text files. I shouldn’t have to use three different methods to (unsuccessfully) access all the features of my graphics card! In Windows I just go to the display control panel and all the options are there.
Yeah, setting ease in Windows easy not. How about printing a word document and telling the system to use a printer tray that is not windows default. You have Page settings, then the print dialogue in Word, then you have the printer properties settings to try and get Word to print something specific. Very sloppy. As is setting default settings for a printer in Windows, you have 3 dialogues to jump through to ensure consistant print defaults.
Oh well, must be how MS keeps Windows so easy to use. NOT.
BTW I don’t live in the US and I don’t want to use US settings Microsoft! How many times do I have to tell you f’ing OS that. I want to use my version of English spelling, my stationary defaults which should be tied into local settings but no, they aren’t and Windows but mainly Office constantly fight you trying to return to US defaults. That sucks and isn’t what I call user friendly.
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
Well, you could get an equivalent NVIDIA card, so that wouldn’t be a regression.
KDE is fine if you run nothing but KDE apps, but it becomes a total mess if you need to mix in apps that weren’t created for that DE.
No it doesn’t. I regularly use GTK apps with KDE, and they work very well, thank you very much.
Even Windows 3.1 allowed you to consistently copy and paste between apps, yet that’s broken between some of the most popular Linux apps.
Text copies and pastes fine. For images, I’ve learned (working with Photoshop daily on Windows) that it’s always better to save to disk and open from disk, as you can lose some information and/or quality (depending on which apps you copy from).
So that bit about Copy and Paste seems to me like an outdated complaint, or FUD, or both. Copy and paste works just fine on my desktop (oh, and as a bonus it also works with the middle button for instant paste!).
That would be a really useful feaure if it worked in all Linux apps. But since it only works with KDE apps it just adds to the inconsistency.
You know, consistency would be a valid argument if Windows apps themselves were consistent in their UI. In fact, they aren’t. On my office desktop I have Lotus Notes, MS Office XP, Maya 6.0, AlienBrain, Photoshop and Windows Media Player. All of these apps have their own UI quirks. And you know what? I manage, just like 99% of users out there.
Minor UI inconsistency is a false problem, created by those who want to spread FUD.
Consistent applications – this has a much bigger effect on my ability to get a task done than any number of little UI tweaks.
Why? Do you suffer from ADD? You must find working with non-Microsoft apps very difficult, since they are as inconsistent as what you’ll find on Linux.
Again, false problem.
Why isn’t there even a standard clipboard for copy and paste of data between apps?
There is for text, and that’s really what matters.
Consistent graphical configuration – in Windows I can control all my hardware from graphical control panels and system tray tools.
…which have inconsistent UIs. In Linux you tweak every desktop setting from the KDE control center. For servers admin, you can use the distro specific tool. That has never been a problem for me. Again you’re making a mountain out of a molehill.
If all you have going for Windows XP are minor graphical inconsistencies, then you’d better find a better argument.
I shouldn’t have to use three different methods to (unsuccessfully) access all the features of my graphics card!
Get a nvidia card. They have a nifty little GUI configuration tool.
Now, can you give me a REAL technological advantage of the Windows XP DE over KDE?
“linux on MediaGX sucks…”
Cyrix Media GX sucks even with Win98, WinME and Win 2000. This 486+sound+video chip on same die has been designed back in days when Win95 ruled the desktop world.
Why should Linux kernel maintener(S) bother with such exsotic and marginal pieces of hardware as Cyrix MediaGX CPU was. No wonder since Linux kernel gaudged only 70 bogomips.
~oOo~
I got my Cyrix MediaGX PowerSpec sucker model 1660 which was testbed for various Linux distro installation trials and I’ll tell you : only Progeny Debian ( kernel 2.2.18), Caldera 2,3 , RedmondLinux and Mandrake 7.2 were installed on it successfully but the whole experience was horrible. Final decision was to let Windows95 rule in its small CirixMedia GX kingdom.
BTW PowerSpec systems are low-end machines by design most often built of parts from unknown or less known hardware manufacturers and are intended to be sub $300 boxes and “affordable” ( read totaly unupgradeable, scaled down variations of standard hardware and so on).
I’m happy with my Win95 on Cyrix GX and with my Xandros 2.0 Business Edition on Dual Pentium III 933 Mhz PC .
QUOD LICET IOVI NON LICET BOVI !!!
And article is real todays Linux world Summa Summarum
One of the biggest problems that Desktop Linux faces lies in another aspect of the ‘choice’ discussion. The article’s author faults redhat for lacking KDE and Slack for missing the Gnome boat. Neither runs on windows without a lot of work. People complain about fragmentation among the DE’s and then bitch when their distro doesn’t support every single one of them.
The open source release cycle is also an apples and oranges fight. Security fixes aside, Ubuntu, for example, releases every six months. That’s three years and counting better than Windows. With most of the distros there are ‘at your own risk’ testing releases all the time if you need the bleeding edge stuff. Yet you hear complaints all the time about this week’s new package not being in warty-stable. Nobody complains about not being able to use the newest version of internet explorer because without an MS security badge they don’t even get to see it.
On the other hand, package installation and configuration is unforgivable, everywhere. Why the hell am I still opening xorg.conf to change “nv” to “nvidia”? This is the kind of stuff that’s fixable… easily. I think that a good fifty percent of the boosterism on the internet is part of the problem. This very discussion lays blame all over the place for DruggedBunny’s video problems. Blame ATI, blame Bunny blame the distros. Let’s get solution oriented. How do we get it fixed? Surely the big brains on this forum can take time out from arguing about the semantics of wether or not a nonworking Enlightenment installation was or wasn’t compiled correctly. And Bunny, if/when you get this thing working how about passing it on. Take 15 minutes to write down what you did and stick it on one of the five dozen wikis that you DIDN’T find the information on.
Well, you could get an equivalent NVIDIA card, so that wouldn’t be a regression.
That’s hardly a cheap option, it wipes out the money saved by not having to buy a future version of Windows. You didn’t provide an alternative sound card option. Are there any sound cards as good as the E-mu 1212 that are properly supported by Linux?
Linux would have to have very significant advantages over Windows for me to consider buying replacements for this hardware.
No it doesn’t. I regularly use GTK apps with KDE, and they work very well, thank you very much.
Yes they work, but as I said before; they have a UI that’s inconsistent with KDE apps. What’s hard for you to understand about this?
Text copies and pastes fine. For images, I’ve learned (working with Photoshop daily on Windows) that it’s always better to save to disk and open from disk, as you can lose some information and/or quality (depending on which apps you copy from).
Im my experience this is pure FUD. I’ve never had any trouble whatsoever when copying and pasting between Windows and Mac apps. That includes images from Photoshop, spreadsheet tables and charts, formatted text, etc.
So that bit about Copy and Paste seems to me like an outdated complaint, or FUD, or both. Copy and paste works just fine on my desktop (oh, and as a bonus it also works with the middle button for instant paste!).
In your previous paragraph you admitted that Linux copy and paste doesn’t work consistently for anything except plain text. How is it an outdated complaint or FUD?
Having to save dozens of images (and other types of data) to disk before importing them into another app would significantly slow down my workflow. Why would I switch to an OS that lacks a basic feature that I use so often?
You know, consistency would be a valid argument if Windows apps themselves were consistent in their UI. In fact, they aren’t. On my office desktop I have Lotus Notes, MS Office XP, Maya 6.0, AlienBrain, Photoshop and Windows Media Player. All of these apps have their own UI quirks. And you know what? I manage, just like 99% of users out there.
The little UI quirks that Windows and Mac apps suffer from can be annoying, but they’re mainly cosmetic and easy enough to live with. Things like file dialogs, menus, keyboard shortcuts, copy and paste, etc. are all consistent enough between the Windows apps I use. The inconsistency in Linux apps is so much worse that it simply can’t be compared to the minor consistency problems between Windows apps.
Why? Do you suffer from ADD?
Silly personal attack noted.
You must find working with non-Microsoft apps very difficult, since they are as inconsistent as what you’ll find on Linux.
Name any non-Microsoft apps for Windows that don’t support copy and paste of non-plain text. Name any that don’t use fairly standard file dialogs, keyboard shortcuts, menus, etc.
There is for text, and that’s really what matters.
Maybe that’s all that matters to you, but you can’t speak for other people. I use non-plain text copy and paste constantly and I’m not going to downgrade to an OS without this basic feature. This was something you could do on an Apple Lisa in 1983, it’s pathetic that Linux lacks this feature in 2005.
Get a nvidia card. They have a nifty little GUI configuration tool.
The last time I looked at that you still had to edit XF86Config to change some advanced options.
Now, can you give me a REAL technological advantage of the Windows XP DE over KDE?
You’ve been given it. You may be too much of a Linux fanatic to accept it, but that’s your problem, not mine.
Linux would have to have very significant advantages over Windows for me to consider buying replacements for this hardware.
Well, then don’t switch! I’m not here to convince you. Keep running Windows. However, that’s not a reason to claim that Linux sucks. When you buy hardware, buy it for the OS you’ll use. That’s just smart shopping.
Yes they work, but as I said before; they have a UI that’s inconsistent with KDE apps. What’s hard for you to understand about this?
A few minor inconsistencies! Cry me a freakin’ river.
All kinds of Windows apps have inconsistencies, and it’s a minor annoyance at worst. This is criticizing for its own sake.
In your previous paragraph you admitted that Linux copy and paste doesn’t work consistently for anything except plain text.
Yes, and it doesn’t prevent from being productive one bit. If this is really what you base yourself on to say that Windows is superior to Linux, then that proves that you don’t have much at all.
Having to save dozens of images (and other types of data) to disk before importing them into another app would significantly slow down my workflow.
Well, what’s stopping you from using apps that work well together? I.e. if that’s part of your daily work, then use both GTK or KDE apps.
Or do as I do: use drag and drop instead of copy/paste for images – that works for a lot of apps where copy/paste doesn’t. Example: open a web page with Konqueror. Click and drag an image unto the Gimp main window: the image automatically opens up in Gimp.
That’s a lot more intuitive than copy/pasting.
The little UI quirks that Windows and Mac apps suffer from can be annoying, but they’re mainly cosmetic and easy enough to live with.
The exact same thing can be said of Linux inconsistencies.
Things like file dialogs, menus, keyboard shortcuts, copy and paste, etc. are all consistent enough between the Windows apps I use. The inconsistency in Linux apps is so much worse that it simply can’t be compared to the minor consistency problems between Windows apps.
That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. I disagree – of course, if you go out of your way to use obscure apps using motif, you’ll get glaring inconsistencies.
Meanwhile, the file dialog windows from Photoshop are quite different from those of Office apps. The shortcuts aren’t the same, the text box for the file name doesn’t behave the same way (it has the very annoying habit of selecting the entire file name when you click in it, usually to remove the “copy” after doing a “Save As…”).
UI inconsistency plagues Windows as much as Linux (okay, it doesn’t plague the Mac quite as much, I’ll grant you that). However, UI inconsistencies are a very minor issue. It has become the one of the last refuges of the anti-Linux posters, which is a sign that the KDE and Gnome desktop have matured quite a bit.
Silly personal attack noted.
It’s just a question. Hey, I’ve had people around me with it, it’s no big. The thing is that if minor UI annoyances will prevent you from being productive, then you’re SOL, whether you’re using Linux, Windows or any OS ever made.
I use non-plain text copy and paste constantly and I’m not going to downgrade to an OS without this basic feature. This was something you could do on an Apple Lisa in 1983, it’s pathetic that Linux lacks this feature in 2005.
Linux doesn’t lack it: it just doesn’t work for certain app combination. That’s a very different thing! For many of these app combinations, drag and drop does work.
You’ve been given it.
Uh, no. You’ve pointed out a minor annoyance, like there are a lot in Windows apps. I’ll give you an example: if I copy some text in Word and paste it Lotus notes (i.e. quote a passage from a document, which is something I do very often), it will copy formatting as well. I don’t want that: I want the text, only. What I have to do is paste it in a notepad window I keep open, then copy it again and paste it again in my Notes message. Is there a way to avoid it? Maybe, but I haven’t found it. That’s a stupid UI annoyance, but it doesn’t prevent me from being productive.
Windows has lots of these little annoyances and inconsistencies: I could do like you and focus on one and say that it’s ridiculous that something like this still happens in modern OSes, but you know what, that’s life. I do what everyone else does, I find a workaround. I do the same on Linux.
All OS sucks, depending on your likes and dislikes, your needs and your tolerance level.
You may be too much of a Linux fanatic to accept it, but that’s your problem, not mine.
It is easier to see the straw in a man’s eye than a girder in one’s own. You may refuse to see Windows’ own inconsistencies and focus on a single inconsistency between a limited set of Linux apps, but that’s your problem, not mine.
Well, then don’t switch! I’m not here to convince you. Keep running Windows. However, that’s not a reason to claim that Linux sucks.
I haven’t claimed that Linux sucks, I’ve just listed the main Linux problems that keep me from switching.
Yes, and it doesn’t prevent from being productive one bit. If this is really what you base yourself on to say that Windows is superior to Linux, then that proves that you don’t have much at all.
Speak for yourself. It’s incredibly arrogant for you to claim that a problem is insignificant just because it doesn’t affect you.
This heavily damages my workflow, it makes certain tasks that I do regularly much more time consuming. I wouldn’t switch to an OS that crashed every day or halved the speed of my CPU. So I’m not going to switch to an OS that lacks a UI feature which saves me a lot of time. Linux would have to have huge advantages over Windows to make up for this, IMO it doesn’t.
Well, what’s stopping you from using apps that work well together?
As I said before, there aren’t enough apps available for either KDE or GNOME for me to be able to avoid inconsistency.
Or do as I do: use drag and drop instead of copy/paste for images – that works for a lot of apps where copy/paste doesn’t.
I’ve tried drag and drop in Linux, it didn’t work between the apps I was using. Anyway, I much prefer copy and paste, I find it quicker and less error prone.
That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. I disagree – of course, if you go out of your way to use obscure apps using motif, you’ll get glaring inconsistencies.
“Obscure” software like GIMP, Scribus, OpenOffice and the apps bundled with KDE? The ironic thing is that the windows versions of OO and GIMP don’t suffer all the same inconsistency problems that they have in Linux.
The thing is that if minor UI annoyances will prevent you from being productive, then you’re SOL, whether you’re using Linux, Windows or any OS ever made.
The minor UI annoyances in Windows don’t prevent me from being productive. The UI problems in Linux do stop me from being as productive, that’s why I’m using Windows rather than Linux.
Linux doesn’t lack it: it just doesn’t work for certain app combination. That’s a very different thing! For many of these app combinations, drag and drop does work.
When the apps I use don’t support it, from my perspective Linux may as well not have it at all.
Uh, no. You’ve pointed out a minor annoyance, like there are a lot in Windows apps.
One person’s minor annoyance is another persons major problem.
I know people who are happy with malware ridden Windows 98 installations that crash every few hours. To them that instability is just a minor annoyance, better stability wouldn’t be considered a significant technological advantage.
You may find the problems with Linux to be minor annoyances, you wouldn’t be a fan of it if you didn’t. But that doesn’t mean that the problems I experience with Linux aren’t extremely damaging to my productivity. Maybe even as damaging as having the computer crash regularly.
I’ll give you an example: if I copy some text in Word and paste it Lotus notes (i.e. quote a passage from a document, which is something I do very often), it will copy formatting as well. I don’t want that: I want the text, only. What I have to do is paste it in a notepad window I keep open, then copy it again and paste it again in my Notes message. Is there a way to avoid it? Maybe, but I haven’t found it.
Doesn’t Lotus Notes have a ‘paste special’ menu option in it’s edit menu? Windows apps *should* paste formatted text by default, that’s the consistent behaviour. But in every Windows app I use (even crippleware like WordPad) there’s an option to paste the plain text instead.
Anyway, at least there’s some way for you to copy and paste the data you require between these apps. Having to use an intermediary app to accomplish this is much better than not being able to do it at all. This possible problem with a single app hardly compares with the crippled copy and paste between a great many mainstream Linux apps.
You may refuse to see Windows’ own inconsistencies and focus on a single inconsistency between a limited set of Linux apps, but that’s your problem, not mine.
I see the minor inconsistencies in Windows apps and I don’t like them. But to me they’re nothing compared with the consistency problems in Linux apps. Windows inconsistencies are mildly annoying, Linux inconsistencies would drive me totally nuts if I had to work with it for any length of time.
I consider myself a novice computer user. I have mostly used Macs in the past (OS 8 to OS 9) and some Windows computers for typical college work (word processing, spreadsheets, e-mail, surfing the web, etc.). Although I never installed a OS on these computers. My boyfriend gave me a copy of the new Debian installer Sarge for my Titanium PowerBook. I told him that I heard that Debian was difficult to install on a PC and you want me to install it on a Apple laptop?
He said not to be intimidated and just give it a try. I had decided from the beginning that I wanted to switch to Linux full time so I wanted to get rid of OS 9 and use only Linux on the PowerBook. I carefully documented all of my hardware using Apple’s System Profiler in OS 9 and then read Debian’s PowerPC port page (gave installation examples). Next I pluged my laptop into my cable modem and put the net install CD in. I read each of the questions carefully and used the documentation that I had created to answer the questions/choices that were presented to me to the best of my ability. When the desktop environment install was complete almost everything worked perfectly.
The only remaining issue I had was with sound and DVD video playback. I googled Apple Titanium Debian install sound and found out that I needed something called alsa-base. I started Synaptic and checked alsa-base and installed it and now sound works. The Totem video player showed a error message stating it needed libdvdcss2 when I put a movie in the DVD drive. I was able to find this file on the internet using google and download it to my system and followed the instructions by typing “dpkg -i libdvdcss2_1.2.3-2_powerpc.deb” to install this. Now I can watch movies.
Everything else works great. Monitor resolution, sleep, external mouse, trackpad, DVD, battery charge monitor, airport and keyboard (the Debian ports page tell you what files to edit and what lines to add for right left and middle button clicks, and airport settings). It’s all there so I just found the files opened them up and cut and pasted the text from the web page to the files.
Now I have a complete desktop setup in Linux. I use Firefox for browsing, Thunderbird for e-mail, GAIM for instant messaging, OpenOffice for spreadsheets and word processing, Rhythmbox for my music, and Totem for my movies, and I was able to install it by myself with little planning. I was so proud of myself and have had my laptop running for the past two months without ever having my computer freeze, having to restart, or have the Mac error that says you need more memory for this piece of software. This is great. I am now showing my PowerBook to my friends who have Apples and PC’s so that they can move over to Linux.
My boyfriend showed me this article and I decided to share my experience.
I like FreeBSD, though it takes some work to make it functional on the desktop (for stuff like browser plugins). There’s is so much cross-pollination it’s beginning to not really matter anymore. FreeBSD’s ports system make it really easy to find and install stuff.
I use it now and than.Using “portupgrade -NrR” if you want to update 1 single port or “portupgrade -NRa” for all and last but not least “portupgrade -NRr” if you want to install something new,is not hard to live with and pretty straight forward.Although a GUI isn’t my turf i would like to see a standard cvsup.ports file included that will be altered during initial install by the influence of some gentoo alike net-select script or better yet triggered by what you enter as being the zone-time.Other than that i think FreeBSD is very stable and a good performer for the experienced,high newbie entry level.
//I consider myself a novice computer user … I told him that I heard that Debian was difficult to install on a PC and you want me to install it on a Apple laptop?//
Nice try. If you’ve “heard that Debian was difficult to install” you are *MOST DEFINITELY NOT A NOVICE*.
A novice would have less than 1/2 a clue what “Debian” even was, much less have any knowledge of the install process.
Plus, the fact that you would even consider switching operating systems at all, puts you in the intermediate/advanced class.
Which is a fine place to be. It’s just not where novices hang out. Ever. 🙂
The UI problems in Linux do stop me from being as productive, that’s why I’m using Windows rather than Linux.
Okay, what is it exactly that you need to do, and how exactly is Linux preventing you from doing it? Do you work in desktop publishing? Do you snap images off the web and put them in documents? What’s your work?
So far I’ve heard the fact that you can’t copy and paste images between some apps as a showstopper for you using Linux – but it’s been rather vague apart from that. If you tell me exactly what you need to do for your work, then I could see if there’s a workaround.
Now, if this is only something you do 15 minutes every week, and that it would take you 20 minutes using other methods, then I’ll have to continue saying that you’re making a mountain out of a molehill.
And how is drag and dropping any less reliable, by the way? To me it’s more reliable, and it’s a lot more intuitive.
But, hey, obviously Linux is not for you. Fine, we get it. To you, they’re glaring inconsistencies that prevent you from working. Let me then say the same thing you said to me: don’t assume that because you find these inconsistencies to be showstopper, that everyone else does.
All right, how about we agree that ALL OS suck, some more than other, and which suck more depend on our personal preferences? I’m ready to agree to that.
//However, I’ll take you up on it and say that most commercial apps for Windows have perfectly good replacements on Linux, and that it is possible to run most of the popular Windows apps on Linux through Wine (I myself use MS Office and Quicken, which both run flawlessly on my Linux box).//
Apparently, Linux has “perfectly good replacements” for most commercial Windows apps … except MS Office and Quicken, since you still run them via Wine.
Anyway … your point about the XP vs. KDE desktop environment functionality: I must admit that KDE can do just about everything XP does, desktop-wise. But, I still see XP as a tad more consistent across all applications. KDE has taken very large strides, however … unlike @JK, I’ve noticed that copy/paste is working *LOTS* better in recent versions of KDE. Sure, there are some glitches here/there, but you get that with any OS.
Apparently, Linux has “perfectly good replacements” for most commercial Windows apps … except MS Office and Quicken, since you still run them via Wine.
For MS Office, blame it on closed file formats. In order to stay compatible with documents produced at work, I have to use MS Office (though I must admit that the import filter in the latest OpenOffice betas has improved a great deal).
As for Quicken, well, it’s also kind of a file format lock-in. I would have switched to GnuCash or some other open-source apps (now that they can handle online banking), however I happened to use the French Canadian version of Quicken, and would you believe that the labels in the .QIF file it exports are actually translated! This was a stupid design decision on Intuit’s part – they should have had a translation table instead, and exported a standard QIF file. That means I can’t even import my data in a non-french version of Quicken – in other words, I’m stuck with the 2001 version of Quicken, unless I want to re-enter four years’ worth of financial transactions by hand!
I could do a search/replace of all labels and terms, but I wasn’t able to find a comprehensive list of all such labels.
Otherwise I would have switch to a native app long ago…then again, Quicken works fine with Crossover Office, so the incentive to switch is not that strong…
Direct comment link @Rockwell
By A nun, he moos (IP: 67.71.241.—) – Posted on 2005-03-04 15:59:16
Apparently, Linux has “perfectly good replacements” for most commercial Windows apps … except MS Office and Quicken, since you still run them via Wine.
For MS Office, blame it on closed file formats. In order to stay compatible with documents produced at work, I have to use MS Office (though I must admit that the import filter in the latest OpenOffice betas has improved a great deal).
What docs are you getting from work? Outside of some spreadsheets with embedded scripts I have run into nothing that OpenOffice or Gnumeric (for .xls) could not handle and convert back well since like about a year or so ago. Have no idea of version anymore.
1. JAVA
2. DESKTOP
3. SYSTEM
Runs on both solaris and linux (linux has the driver support)
Very slick interface, too.