As most OSNews readers know, I got into a spat with the Gnome developers last week, which culminated in my publishing of an angry editorial, which sparked a firestorm of controversy. On one hand, the controversy was positive, because it introduced a lot of people to the fact that many people believe that Gnome developers have not had an effective channel to receive and interpret feedback from users. But on the other hand, the controversy had the negative effect of inflaming passions, putting everyone’s guard up, and perhaps even widening the gulf between those who love Gnome but want a voice in its future, and those who hold its future in their hands. This effect was unintentional, and I would like to apologize for any damage I might have done to the project.I understand that when working with people you don’t know, over an impersonal medium like email and mailing lists, it’s easy for misunderstandings to spiral out of control. In fact, before this more recent controversy, I was on the receiving end of a misunderstanding with Gnome developers when a suggestion that I made regarding a Gnome theme ended up being applied incorrectly and I was the target of some truly unfair online abuse for it. It’s so easy to fly off the handle on an email list or a blog that sometimes we are incensed by something someone says or does, and we respond too hastily, and misinterpret their words or intentions. And because it’s so easy to respond, one lack of understanding can lead to an unnecessary flamewar of epic proportions.
I realize that my confrontational writing style makes me particularly susceptible to this kind of misunderstanding, because I often come on so strongly that it makes people defensive, and they’re in no mood to try to see my true motives. And I realize that I am as guilty as anyone of flying off the handle, and misinterpreting someone else’s words or intentions, and In the case of this current controversy over Gnome user feedback, I may have misinterpreted other people’s points. If this happened, and they saw their points, misinterpreted, and aggressively refuted in my editorial at OSNews, I can understand why they would have been angry, and responded in kind.
I must admit that the nasty personal attacks and blatant mischaracterization of my motives that came forth in the comments at OSNews, on Slashdot, and many personal blogs hurt me deeply. And pondering that, I tried to temper my anger and think whether I may have inadvertently made anyone else feel the same. I realize that being angry and defensive isn’t going to do us or the Gnome project any good, so I would like to extend an olive branch of peace. If I have misinterpreted your words, or mischaracterized your motives, I apologize. And I would like to continue to work with you to make Gnome better. I can’t promise that I won’t continue to disagree or even become angry, but I will do my part to put this particular disagreement behind us and work toward making Gnome better.
I want to be fair to everyone involved. Regardless of what I might have said in the heat of the moment, I don’t honestly believe that the Gnome developers want to be deaf to users’ needs. None of us really believe that we are volunteering our time on this or any other open source project solely for our own personal use. Everyone who has labored on free software ultimately wants it to make an impact on the world, wants it to be used by many people. I believe that the Gnome developers really do have the project’s best interests at heart, and I want to reiterate and assure them, and everyone, that I do too.
It’s sort of an inside joke to us here at OSNews that I have been accused of being too pro- or too anti- just about every OS, platform, and technology you can imagine. While in one thread I’m criticized for talking about open source software too much, in another I’m savaged for being rabidly anti-open source. I spend hundreds of hours working to make Gnome better, but then I’m accused of having a vendetta against Gnome. It would be funny if it didn’t hurt so much. Yes, I’m a hot-tempered internet persona (being Mediterranean and all), but I’m also a human being.
I realize that much of the most stinging criticism I received was from people who hadn’t paid close enough attention to the facts and couldn’t be bothered to even completely read what I said. I’m tempted to set the record straight, but for fear of opening old wounds, let me just say that some people accuse me of short-circuiting the process by airing my grievances on OSNews, but I can assure you that I went through all the “proper channels” for many weeks and months and only posted what I did out of desperation. And I did it not to attack Gnome or open source software, but because I care about it so deeply. I mean, think about it. Would I spend hundreds of hours of volunteer time working to help Gnome and other open source software just as the setup for some elaborate troll? No, you are not being Punk’d. Besides OSNews, GnomeFiles and third party Gnome apps that I help with various ways, I am also the editor responsible for the monthly Gnome column of the European Linux+ magazine which prints in 5 languages.
In conclusion, I think that even if we disagree, we should be able to disagree without making enemies of one another. I’m not going to make any more demands, and I’m going to let this issue rest. I stand by most of the points that I tried to make, but I apologize for misstating anyone’s opinions, and I welcome any of the Gnome developers to respond to my points in editorials at OSNews, or if they prefer to make their points on their blogs or other sites and let me know, I will link to them from OSNews (if they’re written in a conciliatory fashion, of course). I don’t want to perpetuate the flamewar, but if we can all take a deep breath and try to move forward constructively, I would like to use the resources at my disposal to facilitate that. That’s all I ever wanted.
Update 1: Expert-Zone’s Thom Holwerda (who wrote a similar editorial to my original one) also has something to say to the Gnome devs.
If another developer tells me to implement something that I don’t want to I’ll tell him where to jump too.
Those developers who get paid by RH or Novell probably have some manager at RH or Novell who tell them what they have to code. They listen to this person because that person gives them money.
I really don’t know why we have to explain this. You’d figure it would be a simple thing to understand.
You don’t respond but you comment which is typically behavior when one does not have a decent retort.
Sigh..
I asked you to respond to it or point me towards a point by point rebuttal.
What you did was reiterate the original points that Eugenia and countless others have made.
You see, an debate is structured like this:
1. Points
2. Counterpoints
3. Count-Counterpoints
I asked you to respond to step 2, not go back to step 1.
Notice how the post I linked to presented each individual point and then responded to it? That’s how you debate.
I don’t know what you mean by “count”
By QuantumG (IP: —.lo1.lns1.server-access.com) – Posted on 2005-03-16 04:12:25
If another developer tells me to implement something that I don’t want to I’ll tell him where to jump too.
If you don’t program then you cannot contribute and if you cannot contribute then you do not count and I can ignore you and 60% of the trolls on the net will back me up.
But!!!!
If you can code and you ask me to implement something I tell you to go freakin jump and write it yourself.
Then I take your patch and sit on it with my middle finger in the air pointed at you until you give up all hope.
That is the great paradox of bad Open Source development.
Not all projects are like this but it is damn frustrating to watch when your favorite desktop has some of its biggest guns sit back and tell you that submitting a feature request is pointless and submitting a patch moreso.
Ok but what about the people that try to contribute through patches that are ignored and even Havoc on that thread admits it?
I haven’t read that specific post. I would suppose patches get ignored for a few reasons:
1. The patch is poorly coded
2. The patch implements functionality that is contrary to the goals of the project
3. The patch solves a problem in a backwards way
4. The developers are too busy to accept it. Remember that reviewing a patch is often just as much work as coding it.
What about all those feature requests that are ignored?
Once again, could be one of:
1. The feature requested is stupid or contrary to the goals of the project.
2. The feature requested requires major changes to the underlying platform.
3. There are no developers with time to implement that feature.
Oh yeah, its so much fun to contribute to Open Source when you get that attitude back. The sad part is that a bunch of people I think responded to her in a completely reasonable way.
Yes, some responded unreasonably. It is the way of nature to put your spikes up when you feel like you are being attacked.
re: Leo
By leo (IP: —.gv.shawcable.net) – Posted on 2005-03-16 04:16:26
Sigh..
I asked you to respond to it or point me towards a point by point rebuttal.
Nope. Sorry. You are wrong.
You asked me to do nothing.
You asked Eugenia to respond point by point.
I merely commented on another arrogant response in defense of the developer-centric model and since you know that everything I said above is true but you don’t want to admit it, you dismiss my post.
Which is a pretty typical method of admitting you have nothing productive to say or you would use your own words instead of hiding behind a link.
@Johnathan Bailes
By leo (IP: —.gv.shawcable.net) – Posted on 2005-03-16 04:23:56
Ok but what about the people that try to contribute through patches that are ignored and even Havoc on that thread admits it?
I haven’t read that specific post. I would suppose patches get ignored for a few reasons:
1. The patch is poorly coded
2. The patch implements functionality that is contrary to the goals of the project
3. The patch solves a problem in a backwards way
4. The developers are too busy to accept it. Remember that reviewing a patch is often just as much work as coding it.
How in god’s name can people rip Eugenia a new one in every other post when they admit right off the bat they not read the darn thread? The whole thread.
Havoc said that many developer’s do not implement patches because it is in his own words “just too much of a pain” in such a big project.
I don’t get it, if you don’t like the way the volunteers are handling your feature request (with or without a patch) why don’t you go become a customer of a commercial Linux distribution and let them know about it. They’ll do everything in their power to make their customers happy and that means you. You don’t have to learn how to code, you can “vote” with your dollars.
You can ask developers to implement features if you are polite, humble and willing to offer any form of assistance. Developers appreciate these qualities in users. You do not even have to be a hacker. Being reasonable and understanding is also a plus.
In contrast, if you are rude, uncompromisingly forthright and insulting to developers, expect zilch. If you make a mockery of their project, and you expect them not to take it personally, you are being obtuse. And if you compare their project to Apple and Microsoft projects, that have millions of dollars in funding to squander, you’ll incur their wrath.
Not all projects are like this but it is damn frustrating to watch when your favorite desktop has some of its biggest guns sit back and tell you that submitting a feature request is pointless and submitting a patch moreso.
Where exactly did a developer say this?
There is a difference between not listening to users, and not bowing to every one of their whims.
Feature requests are appreciated, but don’t count on them being implemented. Just checking the kde bugzilla comes up with: Total: 8312 bugs and 7930 wishes
Most of those will probably never be implemented even if every developer jumped to it right now. Big deal, get over it or start coding.
How in god’s name can people rip Eugenia a new one in every other post when they admit right off the bat they not read the darn thread? The whole thread.
I figured you’d wig out over that point.
I’ve read enough to know what its about.
Respond to my post, don’t get sidetracked.
Havoc said that many developer’s do not implement patches because it is in his own words “just too much of a pain” in such a big project.
Perfectly valid reason. You think they should be forced to implement these features against their will? No? Then do it yourself or pay someone.
How in god’s name can people rip Eugenia a new one in every other post when they admit right off the bat they not read the darn thread? The whole thread.
Also, don’t compare me to those who are attacking Eugenia personally. They’re idiots.
I have nothing against Eugenia. I just think she is misguided and doesn’t understand how open source works
I merely commented on another arrogant response in defense of the developer-centric model and since you know that everything I said above is true but you don’t want to admit it, you dismiss my post.
No, I responded to it. Just not in the first post.
Which is a pretty typical method of admitting you have nothing productive to say or you would use your own words instead of hiding behind a link.
Christ. I could rewrite everything this guy said in my own words, but what’s the point. I agree with his points, and I think they are well stated, so why repeat it?
hey Eugenia,dont aplogoise.be happy that u have said ur words..remember one thing, “If you’re on someone’s shitlist, you’re doing something right.”…and as long as gnome developers dont change their harsh attitude,things wont be the same for gnome in future…and this entire event is one good example why many have already switched to KDE development..
@Johnathan Bailes
By leo (IP: —.gv.shawcable.net) – Posted on 2005-03-16 04Most of those will probably never be implemented even if every developer jumped to it right now. Big deal, get over it or start coding.
What is the point if I code up a patch and it gets ignored?
What make a fork for goodness sakes?
Nobody was talking about chaining developers to a chair and forcing them to implement every user whim.
The whole thread in the developer list was started when a developer asked for ideas to involve users more in the next release.
It was about getting an idea of what user’s really want because they cannot implement every feature request.
First the developers say essentially they want some ideas on involving users because of so many feature requests and a handful as per my original post please said they did not care and that even getting that information did not matter.
Caring what the user thinks is a far cry from being the request b*tch of the same said users. A fary cry in an arguement of pure extremes.
I use gnome every day for work and home. I am a Unix sysadmin. I like it a great deal and if the Gnome Roadmap is any indication and they actually get all that stuff in one release I will be a much happier user.
However, after reading some of the responses by some of the developers and looking over feature requests like proper samba browing in Nautilus (Connect to Server works but browsing into a host launches no username and pass prompt so you get no permissions error) or the now famously silly decision to implement a new menu structure before they finished a proper menu editor is just very, very frustrated for a user who prefers gnome and gtk+ over KDE.
Heh, that’s interesting. I just recently heard that many of the KDE developers have quit over the years due to a lack of freedom. Maybe they went and worked on GNOME, maybe not. The point is, maybe whining users results in a lack of freedom, which results in developers moving on, which results in users switching to something else (cause there’s no developers to implement their features) which results in whatever they switch to losing it’s developers which starts the cycle all over again.
Gnome is and has always been the shining example of a user centric product. Not the users like whiny blog owning people, but the majority of Joe six packs out there. Therefore, the direction of the project can only be decided by those who do the programming, no silly web poll as suggested by eugenia will ever represent the opinions of the target audience.
eugenia can suggest, the developers can reject. They decided that the suggestions will are not suitable for the target audience.
Ranting and raving will not change their mind, only further solidify their opinion that you’re just full of ranting and ravings.
firestorm of controversy ??? Give me a break! A couple of rants on this blogsite is totally irrelevant in the big picture.
Gnome is a very user friendly desktop, and its due to the acute sense of direction of the developers of finding the best suggestions to implement.
Gnome goes on, i bet the gnome forums don’t even mention this so called editorial. They are hard at work improving their product, not busy complaining “no one listens to me”.
Gnome goes on, i bet the gnome forums don’t even mention this so called editorial. They are hard at work improving their product, not busy complaining “no one listens to me”.
Could have fooled me half the personal blogs on Planet Gnome took the time to comment or in some cases personally flame Eugenia.
As someone else earlier said, “I wish they had put that time into writing the new menu editor.”
But for the curious that and a lot more is coming:
http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap
Well this will be my last post on the subject (“Thank god” I hear you cry). I have wasted way too much time on an ultimately moot point.
I explained to you why patches don’t get accepted sometimes and features don’t get implemented. Many times it is just a matter of developer time not being available.
You claim you do not want to force devs to do anything, and you also don’t want to code it yourself, or hire a developer to do it. So what is left?
So Gnome needs a menu editor in your opinion. Why does it not have one? It just hasn’t gotten done yet. The lumps come with the gift I guess.
There are three options to get a menu editor:
1. Code it yourself
2. Hire a developer to do it
3. Force a developer to do it
You say you don’t want to do any of those things, and yet you are mad that the feature is not there. I don’t see how this line of reasoning is at all productive.
Take some courses in essay writing and journalism and rhetoric. Write articles using professional techniques.
Eugenia, well done! Its amazing the type of perspective time and distance can produce. The important thing is not that we agree or disagree but how we act towards one another; by reflecting and choosing grace you have demonstrated that it is always a better choice than disgrace. I wish more of the readers here would take your lead (ahem, Mr. Bailes) as no one needs to continue to rehash the points of an argument that went far beyond its intended mandate. When reasonable people act reasonably it is inevitable that reasonable solutions will be found. Many people who don’t get involved in the development process aren’t aware of how heated debates can get even among co-operating developers. It isn’t the heat of passioned debate that incites division but rather the taking of personal stakes and the false impression that we are really distinct and disparate groups. You are correct, “users” and “developers” want the same thing. Both groups want to help the other. Not every discussion will lead to favoured results but when we remember each others humanity, we have already made the most important step, the very step that sits at the heart of the FOSS movement — empowering each other through cooperation and respect. Ubuntu is an aptly named distribution for this very reason. If even one user (recall developers are users too) is left behind or castigated then we have much to learn and much more work to do.
Thank-you, Eugenia. I don’t strictly agree with your points but I respect your right to have and to champion them and I applaud your decision to do the best thing possible (in this case) for the project and the community which also happens to be one of the hardest things a individual person can do: to let go of personal ego for a moment so as to stop a bloody battle. I’m left thinking of the story of the Mahabharata: despite the pleading of his family, his friends and even Krshna, Duryodhana would not set aside his pride and personal agenda. This lead to the inevitable decimation of an entire nation. How lovely that history need not repeat itself endlessly!
Best Regards!
So Gnome needs a menu editor in your opinion. Why does it not have one? It just hasn’t gotten done yet. The lumps come with the gift I guess.
It does not have one because the gnome developers made the decision to ditch the old limited method and implement a new xdg complaint menu system but saw it as a low-priority (huh?!?) to actually finish the menu editor before doing this.
It is being coded now for the Gnome 2.12 roadmap and if I thought my patch would not be ignored I would go that devel thread that has some examples of the new editor and contribute some work. I don’t program C that well but why bother boning up on it when developers say they just don’t have the time to go through patches that they want to implement anyway.
That was the frustrating part.
Not that a patch was refused but they are being ignored and the guys who are getting paid to deal with gnome on a daily basis admit this.
Even the ones they want to implement.
I am frustrated that XFCE handles samba browsing better than gnome and that it was been a problem with gnome since vfs and nautilus was intro’ed into gnome.
Why not? I am not trolling around saying gnome sucks or nonsense like that.
With all the corporations using gnome as their desktop it is just mind-boggling that someone has not put resources on getting samba-browsing in Naut fixed.
I have watched a number of development lists for awhile now and I do know how OSS development works. It does not mean that FOSS is perfect or a panacea and I still believe it is the best way.
However, burying your heads in the sand and ignoring some of the problems like getting user input without bogging development down in useless features is important to address.
Am I fixated over the menu editing example?
Yes, because it is the perfect example of this since it did NOT have to happen. There was no over-whelming reason to break the little bit of functional menu-editing available in gnome to implement a new menu system until a functional menu editor was in place. The world would not have ended. Sun would not have dropped gnome and the sun would not have expired. But someone just forgot to care that not all of us want to edit desktop files through vi to edit a menu entry.
I know because I do read those developer lists.
It would be productive if the gnome devels had not gotten sidetracked by the whole Eugenia web poll idea and had actually tried to come up with a way to find out what the users they have out there in the world wanted. And then made decisions based on the need of their development with that input in mind. No dictation of development from users just input. Which is all anyone was talking about to begin with.
It would be productive if the gnome devels had not gotten sidetracked by the whole Eugenia web poll idea and had actually tried to come up with a way to find out what the users they have out there in the world wanted.
a better way to put it …
It would be productive if Eugenia hadn’t sidetracked the developers with the web poll idea and instead she could have tried to set up some real world testing so she could actually contribute and not rant.
Rambus (IP: —.tm.net.my) – Posted on 2005-03-16 05:47:56
It would be productive if the gnome devels had not gotten sidetracked by the whole Eugenia web poll idea and had actually tried to come up with a way to find out what the users they have out there in the world wanted.
a better way to put it …
It would be productive if Eugenia hadn’t sidetracked the developers with the web poll idea and instead she could have tried to set up some real world testing so she could actually contribute and not rant.
If you do not know that a few of the developers were just as much to blame then you did not read that thread.
Yes, I think she reacted badly at one point.
Yes, I do not believe it warranted an editorial here.
But on that one thread at that one moment, the developers were at numerous points just as rude as Eugenia ever was.
But on that one thread at that one moment, the developers were at numerous points just as rude as Eugenia ever was.
Perhaps. But now is the time to let by-gones be by-gones and to lay down our arms. It is time to return to thinking, planning and working towards the next small or large contribution that we can make to help everyone along. Let us continue to disagree if we must but let us stop pointing fingers at each other. Who does that serve except, perhaps for one moment, our own egos?
Best regards.
By Magic8 (IP: —.qc.sympatico.ca) – Posted on 2005-03-16 06:02:31
But on that one thread at that one moment, the developers were at numerous points just as rude as Eugenia ever was.
Perhaps. But now is the time to let by-gones be by-gones and to lay down our arms.
I should edit that remark to say a handful or a few of the developers.
By the way.
So why don’t you contact your commercial Linux supplier and request them to make the menu editor a priority. As their customer they will listen to you. If not, go to another commercial Linux supplier.
GNOME rocks!
I’m using the latest version from Ubuntu hoary and it has a new theme and Firefox rocks even more. I can’t tell you how much happy I am with my Linux desktop, though it’s not perfect because I’m not using one of the latest kernels because one of the programs that I develop has some conflict with the kernels. The problem is that it’s a “leaky abstraction” so I can’t hand a C/GTK code that reproduces the problem, at least not yet, because I use Ruby-GNOME2, which adds two more layers to the C/GTK (Ruby’s and Ruby-GNOME2’s). But I’m still happy.
Very good attempt at peace making Eugenia. Unfortunately, the very predictable response and attacks continue even when you are trying to extend an olive branch. The name calling, pouting, and “I’ll attack anyone who dares not share my opinion” crowd are whining as expected. The guys at Microsoft must be laughing their a$$es off when they read this stuff. Linux is growing in spite of you clowns, not because of you. Grow up or go back to Slashdot with the rest of your chest thumping cronies.
Sheez…
close your eyes and pretend that this is not happening as much as you want. Your frients at Microsoft have their eyes wide open, I assure you.
…if we made a big poll, and most of OSNews readers requested proper threading for this site’s comments feature, would it be implemented?
That would be a nice way of saying “Dewd, get the hell out of here”. 🙂
Don’t bet on it. Just a silly question: what software is it that OSNews is running? Is it even open source? Cause if so I’ll gladly hack on threading.
It takes guts to admit that one wasn’t innocent in letting this discussion (and I still think Eugenia had some valid points, btw.) spiral down into a flamewar. Very impressive.
And while we are at it, thank you Eugenia for your efforts in improving Gnome, gnomefiles.org especially is something I would truely miss if it wasn’t there anymore.
“close your eyes and pretend that this is not happening as much as you want. Your frients at Microsoft have their eyes wide open, I assure you.”
Sorry to burst your bubble dewd, but entire reason I even visit sites like this is to look at alternatives to Microsoft. Just because I think irrational rantings and attacks by a lot of childish posters accomplish nothing good it doesn’t mean I have friends at Microsoft.
The bug that I referred to could be related to this:
http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-2004-03.html#04
Many many times on win32 I have wanted to make an app that lets the user choose the directory where files will be saved. Using GTK this has never been a problem. But now both win32 and GTK have this annoying feature that you can’t select a directory in the file chooser.
Oh please, spare the self pity.
This is so funny… You’re all worse than 3 year olds. Having to post derogatory comments about each other and then having to publicly apologise is just so stupid. When are you going to grow up!
“I realize that my confrontational writing style makes me particularly susceptible to this kind of misunderstanding”
Personally, I’ve got more problems with the confrontational modding style you use. Sorry to have to say this, but I think you have an inconsistent modding behaviour and a lot of people I talked to agree with this point of view. This worries me much more than confrontational writing (which is often good to provoke discussion on a subject.
Hope you don’t have hard feelings about my comment.
Darkelve
I don’t think you’re the one who should be apologizing for this Eugenia. It seems to me that you had full right to say what you said.
I just would like to mention the following:
I responded to Eugenia’s original article with 4 posts. It was clear to me that she was on to something while at the same time it was clear to me that the rhetoric she used to make her points clearly illustrated her lack of ‘savoir-faire’ in how to deal with the FLOSS community on it’s terms.
I read all of the pro-users and pro-developers this and anti-users and anti-devs that. Strangley enough I felt as if know one was speaking to me, and those who do what I do. I am a sys admin administering GNOME desktops for 300 users. So what does that make me-and those who do the same kind of work ? are we users? we certainly aren’t devs -but where do we fit into this user vs. dev dilemna.
I did not feel as if I was being addressed when I read how some dev’s were talking about users. Let’s face it devs, as software developers, don’t have any direct interaction with users, period. Me and my ilk do. We are the ones who have to work out work-arounds for all of those things which the dev’s didn’t get right.
I can attest to GNOME being ‘user-centric’ in one important sense-GNOME has made leaps and bounds when it comes to implementing software in such a way that users aren’t constantly bothered by things which require more technical knowledge of the computer.
But from my standpoint as a sys admin “user” of GNOME I can state unequivocally that GNOME has been utterly lacking when it comes to providing the tools that I need to properly administer GNOME desktops. In fact administering GNOME desktops has been a usability nightmare since the introduction of 2.x. Ironically GNOME is so ‘user-centric’ that most of it is coded as if there were nothing but ‘users’ and developers.
Me and my ilk are fighting in the trenches. We are the ones who face user complaints.Moreover sys admins are the one who need to be convinced that GNOME is best platform for a solid desktop experience-we are the one who implement these desktops for users. When I took on my job as sys admin I chose to switch from KDE to GNOME for the default desktop- I did this because of the ‘users’. KDE for sys admins is far and away much easier to administer. But KDE, IMHO, demands too much from users who usually cannot even remember to pay attention to where they saved their document. I am forced to follow the developments at GNOME just as I am forced to follow the implementation details surrounding the gconf system, the mime system and all of the issues with gnome-vfs.
In fact 40% of my time has been spent on trying to grok the various GNOME subsystems and find work-arounds for the issues that they bring. And considering that each of these subsystems have gone through major reworkings in the past 3 releases and that there is 0 documentation about these changes has made this work much harder.
to give a concrete example: as a personal GNOME user I abhor the loss of menu editing functionailty in 2.10. But as an admin, me smiles
When some dodo-bird dev decides to change the MIME-spec for MS-word documents according to what *he* thinks should be standard ignoring 99% of web page links- I have to solve it-for if I don’t my users scream bbloody murder.
Gnome-vfs + samba has caused me more hair loss than all of the years of my life put together. I recently read about a ‘bug’ with gnome-vfs- and that bug suggested a patch to samba to solve it. ROFL. You(devs) want me to patch samba to fix the broken gnome-vfs- ha ha haha ha. Don’t even get me goin on gconf. Or the situation with gnome-volume-manager where someone posted a patch to turn off the desktop icons for mounted drives-which was turned down by one of the devs because it didn’t suit his notion of usability- previously this functionality had been hardcoded in Nautilus with a WONTFIX bug sitting in bugzilla for over 3 years. I can’t tell you how much fun it was trying to disable this functionality-and I shouldn´t have to explain to anyone that as a an administrator I MUST BE ABLE TO TURN OFF DESKTOP ICONS FOR MOUNTED DRIVES.
My solution? I recompiled the GNOME desktop without hal/dbus support, ie. because I was not given the tools to properly administer this feature I was forced to withdraw support for all things hal and dbus enabled. (why oh whay is my /etc/fstab being constantly rewritten ?) Now Nautilus launches executables files not unlike Windows Explorer- for some GNOME devs this appears to be a step towards usability- but for sys admins like me who really appreciate the *difference* between Linux and Windows this is a major step backwards. Can we sys admins have an option to turn this *feature* off ?
But slowly but surely the situation is improving. GNOME 2.8 and 2.10 are primarily bug-fix releases. Sabayon is exteremely promising-and I am really looking forward to seeing it mature. I won’t be updating our desktop to 2.10 for several months because I need that time to come to terms with all of the undocumented changes- time to compile some vague comprehension of these changes from the vast and asundry mailing list/bugzilla/blogs about functionality changes.
As usual I am caught in a netherworld between users and developers. I try not to get to frustrated and try not to laugh to much when I see how clueless most of the software devs are in dealing with administration issues-most of those blogging at planet.gnome would be lost having to deal with the issues which I deal with everyday. Personally I would love it if some of the devs actually spent some time working with GNOME in administrative settings- ie. set up an LTSP server and serve out GNOME desktops and then *see* what the problems with gnome-vfs are, or why Natuilus can’t stat() freespace on local-dev samba shares correctly. But if I sound like I am complaing to much about GNOME- at least GNOME provides some documentation as opposed to the LTSP project which defies description.
I don’t end up filing bug reports very often. I don’t have the time. When the GNOME devs do something that breaks something I end up having to fix it. There are probably more GNOME users in thin-client situations than there are home users of GNOME. I belong to small voiceless army of thousands of sys admins working on trying to make GNOME *the* desktop for users. Perhaps one day we will see a gnome-admins mailing list which specifically address the issues that I and others like me have.
Finally a little note: if GNOME provides us sys admins with proper tools for administration chances are these tools can appeal to ‘power-users’ which have been sidelined in the 2.x GNOME development. The ‘users’ in GNOME’s ‘user-centric’ model of development are the absolutely clueless ‘users’ who don’t even know what a file manager is. The lack of ‘power-user’ features is really only a symptom of the lack of proper administrative tools. If the GNOME devs want to make things easier for their users please focus a little on the ones who will be providing these users with GNOME.
…as it did. I would have thought anyone who hangs out at OSNews would have known Eugenia’s style by now… she does this all the time.
I know, for example, how much she likes the BeOS, yet she takes lots of opportunities to be harsh about driver support and future development, etc… and I do believe it is to spur on Haiku (as an example).
It is very nice that everyone has kissed and made up. GNOME is an awesome project and I would not use Linux without it.
I would agree with you except for the fact that many developers appear openly hostile to users. The “stop bothering me and learn to code” retort is common and one that I certainly see as hostile. It’s also common to see a developer assert that F/OSS is intended only for developers. Of course, there’s always the tendency to tell the users they’re wrong, especially when they don’t behave the way the interface guideline du jour says they should.
I realize that those sentiments can’t be applied universally. But, I’ve been using F/OSS products for 10 years and certainly feel that, on the whole, it has become increasingly resistant to user input. (In part, I suspect, because of the increasing politicization of F/OSS. Many developers seem to be primarily focused on bringing down Evil Corporations.)
You know I rarely agree completely with you editorials, but I always enjoy reading them. Just because you are headstrong and opinionated, like many of us geeks out there, doesn’t mean your articles are somehow less valid than others’ work.
Misunderstandings aside, this whole situation highlighted at the very least a communication problem and some raw nerves in the gnome project. But it’s good to see the situation has calmed down.
As both a gnome user and regular osnews reader, I look forward to seeing more of your contributions in both.
I also sad some things that may have hurt you – maybe I was a bit ignorant.
I had to deal with the same accusations once, too, here on osnews and I know how it can destroy your self-confidence, so maybe I should’ve known what I was doing. However, I guess as soon as you start to do something that many people get to know about you will eventually get accused of things you never really thought about this way. Even if you _really_ just wanted to do something good and never intended to hurt anybody you will hear the strangest accusations.
However, I think most of us learned something out of this and it’s past now (or soon will be). Just keep going your way and do what you think is the right thing to do. Don’t let the jerks make fun of you and destroy your visions for there will be always something that can hurt you. You’re too famous and honest to always be treated right.
some people should start seeing this whole desktop thingy more rational. seriously most of this stuff isnt really worth all this raving about.
Not only is it cheap publicity but its damaging to Gnome and Linux in that it’s causing a division between users and the community.
People new to Linux do not need to read this. Eugenia please remove this for the sake of the whole community.
just for curiosities sake, why not patch samba(if you took the time to recompile gnome)? why are drive icons on the desktop not a good idea? does nautilus launch stuff without +x? do you use one of the “corporate” distros?(novell, jds, rhel, etc)
not being sarcastic, i just wanna get a better idea of where your comming from.
as for the whole developer/admin thing, its pretty much universal. we both think that we have the hard job, and the guys on the other side have it easy. honestly though, gnome sounds like a pain to support. its amazing that the dm most supported and deployed at corporations with big networks would be such a pain to admin.
@Johnathan Bailes
By QuantumG (IP: —.lo1.lns1.server-access.com) – Posted on 2005-03-16 06:10:58
So why don’t you contact your commercial Linux supplier and request them to make the menu editor a priority. As their customer they will listen to you. If not, go to another commercial Linux supplier.
1. I do not typically use a commercial linux at home. I use Ubuntu and I am a test user for RH’s future in other words I also use Fedora.
2. I have mentioned this to a Sun rep before since I do use Gnome on Solaris and gotten the response that they did not plan on shipping a version of gnome without this functionality themselves but could not guarntee what community sites like blastwave.org would do.
Besides menu editing is coming in gnome 2.12. The fact the feature needs coding now was not the point. The point was that gnome had no overwhelming need to change the menu system until they had that part of the puzzle finished.
Also, just because I am frustrated by the some of the responses I saw in that thread from developers and the fact a good idea (getting more user input) went down the toilet of a long flaming thread, does NOT mean that I do not appreciate the work of OSS projects.
Just two days or so ago, I sent a kudos thank you letter to the rhythmbox people. I am using the main branch of their upcoming release of Rhythmbox compiled from the Arch tla archives and it rocks with the CD burning and the tag editing integrated soooo very nicely into the interface.
Many many times on win32 I have wanted to make an app that lets the user choose the directory where files will be saved. Using GTK this has never been a problem. But now both win32 and GTK have this annoying feature that you can’t select a directory in the file chooser.
The Gtk filechooser has a mode for chosing directories.
Karl, I know where you are comming from.
I’ve been twiddling and recompiling gnome too and I am really starting to miss the good old fvwm days.
It is not that I disslike gnome (I use it at home and I love it), but it is hard to turn into a well behaved beast.
The mount icons on the desktop turns into a horrid clutter once the mounts exceed ten. I, for one, like my and my users desktop as clean as possible.
You voiced your opinion, some people didn’t like it. Guess what? That’s what’s creates diversity. That’s why we *have* opinions.
Gnome has a website, if they want to spout off about their favorite brand of hamster shampoo, that’s their right.
This is your forum, use it as you wish. Just keep in the back of your mind, that the asshats who post here are only voicing their opinion, too.
Oh, yeah, and what the hell is up with that USB malloc() bug?
Linux users want webcams, too!
Chuck-
I’ve just read the modded down comments for this thread and they made me Laugh Out Loud! Is there an archive so one can have a chuckle at the marvellous polemics?!
Don’t need to apologize. Those GNOME prima donnas have been years behind schedule. Besides, they don’t even look at 20% of the patches people send to them.
Please, READ the header of the table. 20% is the percentage of ******UNREVIEWED******* patches, so the patches reviewed are 80%.
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/patch-diligence-report.cgi
what would be OSS if directed by only one big boss
what would be OSS without review, debate, criticism
what would be OSS without free expression
what would be OSS without questionning
what would be OSS without remise en question
what would be OSS without fork, and evolution
All of you know the response. Some of you are afraid by the power of OSS. Don’t be.
Don’t know about GTK, but for win32 check this out:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/sh…
Criticism against Integrism
By Robert (IP: 217.167.123.—) – Posted on 2005-03-16 15:11:19
…
what would be OSS without review, debate, criticism
what would be OSS without free expression
what would be OSS without questionning
…
All of you know the response. Some of you are afraid by the power of OSS. Don’t be.
Gosh, some of us see some FOSS projects preferring the three things above with some of the elitist attitudes of once again a small minority of the developers responding to Eugenia.
I am NOT afraid of OSS and prefer it. Right now I am sitting at work hopping boxes and setting user creds on Ubuntu with gnome 2.10. Keeping notes with Tomboy and IM’ing with gaim or listening to music with Rhythmbox or writing my AAR’s with Abiword and finally keeping up with mail using Evolution connected up to the corporate Exchange server.
I use gnome and linux for my work desktop to get real work done. Period.
That does not mean that I am not frustrated by some of the attitudes revlealed in that thread. It does not mean that I am blind to the disconnect between users or developers or even worse the antagonism. Just because I prefer the OSS method of development does not mean that I cannot see its faults especially in the difficult task of putting together a project so large it encompasses my entire desktop whether I work in Linux or Solaris.
The article greatly reduced my confidence in OSNews as a news source. I’ve seen a large amount of opinion based pieces that are grounded squarely in the whims of the author.
This isn’t particularly bad, but does lead me to treat the site as it has become, an Opinion Editorial site. This simply requires me to come into the site with a higher degree of skepticism, much like I do with Slashdot.
What Eugine wrote was bad journalism, not uncommon in today’s situation. A journalist should be truly objective, that article was not. It made inaccurate and unfair claims about the Gnome Project. Attempts to validate opinions with weak facts, including Web Based Polls. The article simply wasn’t a good one.
If that is the intent of OSNews, then they can take their site down whatever path they wish. They have the right to print whatever they like on their website. But as they take their current road, they put their credibility at risk.
I’m just one reader,
Brandon
I’ll try to answer your questions succinctly.
One should never have to patch applications which properly belong to the system- like the kernel, apache, or samba in order that something which is layered upon the system-ie. the gnome desktop, to function correctly. Requiring a patch for samba in order theat gnome-vfs functions correctly *means* supporting a fork of samba. An absolute no-no in my book.
As a user I love Nautilus drive icons on the desktop. But as an admin of a LTSP-based thin-client GNOME desktop I really hate it when all of my users suddenly see a clickable icon on their desktops that points to the backup partition that I just mounted. In a thin-client situation If I mount something on the server an icon for it appears instantly on all my users desktops. Absurd actually.
Actually GNOME is probably easy to support if your organization has thousands of users. In such a case you have at least a dozen people working on administering the desktops and probably have the man power to create custom schemas. It’s as if administration facilities in GNOME were crafted for extremely large corporations/institutions. In much the same was as is the case with OpenOffice-sure you can create a ‘resp’ file that custom tailors how the OO install procedes. But you need to spend hours searching for this info, then hours reading the ~180 page file describing how to implement a resp file and however many hours testing until it actually works. Sure for Sun Microsystems, Inc. such functionality is a god send-but for lowly sys admin managing a media pool at the local university it is absolute overkill.
And no I don’t use any commerical supported distros- I am using Gentoo. I chose Gentoo because it makes precisely the kinds of things I routinely need to do much, much easier. I know the filesystem layout like the back of my hand and have wrote-memorized the syntax for probably 80 different config files. Gentoo sources are, with the exception of portage patches, identical to the source released from the various projects. By the time Redhat or SuSE get done with a package it has been custom-tailored to their needs-ie. what they deem their enterprise customers to need-and in so doing only they can support their changes. In my situation I am running a hybrid-functionality- the machine must function as a non-stop server and as a modern-desktop with the newest software-becuase what it serves *is* the desktop. Gentoo has allowed me to cut my own distro specific to my needs.
There is a new version of Knoppix out, 3.8, that now includes UnionFS on the Live CD.
Let’s get back to talking about OS updates please.
Conflict IS the source of all change. Creating conflict starts debate…debate changes minds. Eugenia, you do occasionally irritate me, like when you called Linux enthusiasts “freeloaders”, but do not apologize or shy away from conflict. If you think there is a shortcoming address it. You obviously have much influence in the OSS world to have caused such a stir, so use that influence for the betterment of free software. If it turns out that you are wrong…so be it…move on.
Theodore Roosevelt had something to say of small minded critics:
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
Replace man with woman and drive on with enthusiasm.
It seems that many of the commenters here would rather restrict our right to voice our opinions than deal with those opinions. They seem to have a religious devotion to F/OSS that compels them to see anyone who doesn’t agree with them as the enemy.
I think most of the adults in the room understand that folks like that pose the greatest threat to F/OSS. Who in their right mind would want to associate with or trust their software to anything that nurtures such an abundance of slanderous, vulgar, loudmouthed, arrogant adolescents?
Don’t think developers are responsible to their users? Fine, but do’t expect users to hold back their opinion of those developers.
Eugenia’s editorial was right on target. She deserves praise for running it and more praise for not trashing the personal insults that many of the children who post here seem to confuse with an appropriate response.
My opinion is that OSNews has now become a tabloid, selling the same stuff over and over again, bringing no real news, just living on controversy.
And as always My opinion will be moderated down or simply deleted.
You’re correct. This site is so boring. Selling the same stuff over and over again. New version of Fedora, new version of KDE, new version of Linspire, new Intel chip technology, blah blah blah. Like weren’t there new versions of all this stuff just a few months ago? How boring to talk about Operating Systems all the time! You’d think this was a site about Operating Systems or something.
And it’s just controversy after controversy. I mean, before this Gnome developer thing, it was … er … umm. Someone in the comments saying that Macs suck because they only have one button mice? Oh, wait! A Mono vs Java pissing contest! Yes! Controversy!
eug, You stood up for the right reasons IMHO, with your brilliant editorial. msg to gnome dev’s “Dont shoot the messenger. it might serve you well to listen instead of dismissing every critisism.”
also someone rewite esound, quick!, while they are still busy fighting
Here’s the part some of you are not understanding. This is bigger than a simple Gnome user controversy. These recent discussions have merely brought out some facts which seldom get consideration. If Eugenia was a helpless female, almost nobody would be on her case. If she was merely an assertive female, she would draw no more flak than anyone else. But the fact is, Eugenia can and does dish it out just as much as she gets it back. Her comments are often rude and insensitive to others feelings, thoughts, etc. With Eugenia, it’s often not a matter of objective comments on an OS or app, it’s “This sucks” or “This looks like ass”. She’s not above flaming people either, and anybody who’s been here awhile has seen her do it. Then we get told she thinks in greek which is a harsh language as if that explains it. So, guess what? Eugenia’s earned some bad feelings over time and calling those who disagree with her “assholes” in her (public) blog certainly doesn’t help. IF this forum is to be that ugly, then so be it, and no apology is necessary. It’s just the way it is here and those who don’t like it don’t have to be here, but expect the ugliness to be going in both directions. But there’s also no need for all these people to rush to her defense. She’s a big girl. She can take care of herself.
Go ahead, mod this one down too.
Good post… but indeed in vain… I was happy that my post didn’t get modded down, and I thought it was because it was a reasonably mature one like yours, but nope… no luck
. Well… we’ll see how this is gonna end…
I am glad she wrote the article for a few reasons:
1) Its good to clear cobwebs sometimes and get a new beginning as based on this:
http://www.gnomejournal.org/article/5/experimental-culture
its clear things needed discussed at least ? 😉
2) I’ve seen useability slip some in gnome albeit its still by far my favorite DM due to its KISS elegance at least for me.
3) I wuv Gnome/Gtk etal.
I am glad to see this discussion take place because I want to be part of a ‘community’ where even users have a definitive ‘team’ member role, which is something all of us can feel good about. I must admit to being highly offended and hurt that things like this might be going on because it chipped away at what I feel gnome/OSS means and it doesn’t have to be so.
I want to reiterate that my noted URL mentions ‘stodgy’ , and in conjunction with Eugenia’s editorial I’d like to think that coupled with healthy ‘stodginess’ we will see a very upbeat personal user relationship continue forward to serve us all effectively.
cheers
nl
——
Eugenia: “In conclusion, I think that even if we disagree, we should be able to disagree without making enemies of one another.”
Oh you realised too late you have alienated a substantial part of your readership? That’s bad. Especially as you site was already going down.
Good job!
Bye bye….
(go on moderate my opion, as always)
Eugenia, you were absolutely right to drag the voodoo coders from their caves and show them the bright light of day. They do not code in a vacuum [at least, I hope they don’t], they write code for something that actual users are going to get their hands on. They had better wake up to the real world.
And political correctness is not something we need. It is a luxury this world cannot afford and actually it is a sick joke played on people in a deeply cynical, utterly ruthless world. “Don’t give offense, don’t hurt one another’s feelings”. That’s why people are discarded in their thousands if the board wants to make sure the numbers look good. No more political correctness. When we regain the courage to call things for what they are, maybe more people will start to really listen and do something about the problems they perceive there to be.
You tell it like it is, but you give them an opportunity to respond. That’s more than a lot of people can say. And it’s a great web site to boot.
Sock it to them, girl!
Greek is a harsh language?
I’m about to find out. Starting “Medea” by Euripides this weekend. In English I’m afraid [I don’t speak a word of Greek, I’m sad to say], but the translation should be very good.