SkyOS Beta 8.5 has just been released. New features include the Indexing Service, an SQL based file attribute and content index service which makes it possible to find your files in a fraction of a second, better developer support, and a lot of bug fixes. NVU has also been ported and is available in this release. You can read the changelog here. Update: Screenshots gallery by OSDir.
Sad to see a project with such potential tied download to EULA.
Since EULAs are A Good Thing ™, you are proven a troll and an Anonymous Coward ™. – Voted down.
It is quite sad to see this site littered with trolls … Maybe an implimentation of a trust system so we can weed out these trolls ?
Trouble is, what is a troll? everybody with a different opinion? Then we are all trolls.
In my opinion, the GPL family of licenses aren’t that great for the community. I mean, think about it: by using GPL, you basically prevent commercial products from using your code, meaning the community as a whole suffers from having products that aren’t as good as they could be, either time, feature, or money-wise.
That aside, SkyOS isn’t something I’m particularly fond of–to me, it looks like a hodge-podge of features with no particular goal and a dozen or so applications whose UI’s, to put it bluntly, aren’t that great. To put it bluntly, SkyOS is basically a dis-organized, less elegant BeOS.
I know the author tends to visit this website, so I suppose the nice thing to do would be to give him some suggestions instead of bashing his product:
1) Read up on human-computer interaction and interface design. I recommend Tog on Interface, along with his website asktog.com. I also recommend you read Tog on Software Design, which is invaluable for anyone designing a next-generation OS.
2) Get your hands on as many OSes as possible and study their UI and how they act in general.
3) Reuse as much code as possible, but for the love of god, make sure you rewrite the UI’s to fit in with the overall feel of your OS. I cannot stress this enough!
4) There is no number 4.
5) I recommend you ditch C++ for a more modern language. Python is great, but it wouldn’t be too hard to create your own python-like language that compiles into C. If you don’t want to create your own, I recommend using C++ for the back-ends and python or some other advanced language for the graphical front-ends.
– bytecoder
I agree that SkyOS needs some proper, sensible (G)UI design. Badly. I mentioned this multiple times in the SkyOS forums. The conclusion? They’ll look at it when they’ye in RC stage. Let’s hope they don’t forget
.
“I agree that SkyOS needs some proper, sensible (G)UI design. Badly. I mentioned this multiple times in the SkyOS forums. The conclusion? They’ll look at it when they’ye in RC stage. Let’s hope they don’t forget
.”
Yeah, but Thom all you ever do is complain that window control buttons aren’t in the OSX position, or that the title bar doesn’t act like BeOS, then back up you opinions with either anecdotes or the claim that “apple spent millions on HCI”.
you never actually bring up real issues like space wasting window frames, or the moving taskbar, or actual app interfaces.
“Python is great, but it wouldn’t be too hard to create your own python-like language that compiles into C.”
I think your pretty much descrbing what Pypy does
RPython -> Translator -> Highly optimized C
—–
Compared to the CPython implementation, Python takes the role of the C Code. We rewrite the CPython interpreter in Python itself.
[…]
translate our high-level description of Python to a lower level one.
[…]
In order to make a C code generator feasible we restrict ourselves to a subset of the Python language [RPython], and we adhere to some rules which make translation to lower level languages more obvious
http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?news
There is a Google Summer of Code project to construct a Python -> C++ translator. So forget about Pypy for a Python(subset) -> C translator.
[quote]In my opinion, the GPL family of licenses aren’t that great for the community. I mean, think about it: by using GPL, you basically prevent commercial products from using your code, meaning the community as a whole suffers from having products that aren’t as good as they could be, either time, feature, or money-wise.[/quote]
You expect companies who invest their time, money, and effort to give back to the community. That is something companies are bound to do if they use GPL software. They wont give back otherwise. They simply dont care and are in it for the money.
first of all GPL DOES NOT prevent companies from releasing commercial software. It only insures that open source software stays that way. There is commercial software published under GPL and Xchat is only one that comes to mind. While xchat is free for linux and *nix in general it is not so for win32. However you can still get the source and compile is yourself thought there are some major problems you might encounter. Oh yeah and if you think that companies will spend money developing software and then give it away … I suggest you take a look at say Novell, IBM, Apple, and several others. They all do that and they all use some for of an OSS licencing. (some more that others) So get with the program. Most companies do not really make their money from selling software but rather supporting it and about 99% of the users love the convenience of commercial software ( OSS or not) because it’s easier for them to pay than learn all that *useless crap*.
Oh and SkyOS is too little too late as far as OSes go. No one really cares about another OS even if it were to change the face of computing. Plus SkyOS is really a noname OS published by a noname company. And as far as the OSS thing goes I am sorry guys but you suck. Turning an OSS system into a closed source one for the sake of making money in just gay and stupid. Provided that the only market share that you may have (for a long while) is geeks, this is a cutting-the-hand-that-feeds-you moove.
will you please do paragraphs dick
Statements like “4) There is no number 4. ” indicate that you are a nigger fucktard.
Replace the second “to put it bluntly” with “Basically.” I didn’t proof-read that part.
– bytecoder
The SkyGI API is C. No C++ involved.
Oops. My mistake. My point still stands, however, and this should make it even easier to make bindings for another language.
It is not my intend to criticize anything other people do but what I don’t get is why SkyOS – as a relatively young OS in development – hast a horror C API that looks like it is as painfull as the old WIN32 API.
The developer knew the Win32 API and wanted to stick to what he knew rather than foraging blindly into unknown territory? There’s still lots of people that don’t like this newfangled object oriented stuff. I may not count myself in their number, but I do understand where they are coming from…
I am one of these, I learned quickbasic as my first languuage, so non-object oriented just seems more natural to me (though I can code in both).
OO development is not natural to many people. Once you move out of the GUI realm of development it gets hard to map abstract concepts into OO. Luckily, the Unix world hasn’t bought into OO as much as others. I suggest looking at data-driven programming.
One of my pet peeves has always been languages that force you into stuffing everything into a class and declaring it static. Just put into a namespace and be done with it.
When in this world do we have to pay for beta? LoL people in this world don’t even like paying for finished products and this guy is trying to sell beta. Well sure some itchy people might be paying but hey screw it, if he asked for donation i would have given but nah i am not paying for a beta of something which is far behind other OSes and even free OSes.
for crying out loud. How many times does this have to be explained. You pay now, and get access to betas, but you get the final when its released. So your not really paying for a beta, your pre-paying for the final, but getting access to the beta for doing so.
SkyGI in terms of design is very similar to Win32, this was proved when the ReactOS team, created a SkyGI Wrapper for ReactOS’s win32 implementation and MS Win32, allowing SkyOS apps to be run on ReactOS and Windows.
How many betas more are necessary?
I recommend you ditch C++ for a more modern language. Python is great, but it wouldn’t be too hard to create your own python-like language that compiles into C.
What on Earth have you been smoking? Python is MUCH slower than C/C++; why would you want to create an OS GUI with it? And creating “your own Python-like language” is not exactly a trivial undertaking. Far better to deploy the time and personnel developing the project than reinventing the wheel.
You seem to be missing the point. The win32 API isn’t that great from a design perspective, not because it’s procedural, but because it just plain isn’t very good.
– bytecoder
as of 8.5 I think it has a great api. It introduces interfaces, so that you can assign a whole different function to each widget. For example you can define kind of an OnMyButtonClick function. Ive programed strait c in windows before, and trust me.. skyos is a cakewalk to program in compared to windows. It may have had a few similarities, but they are certainly nothing alike.
Of course I know it’s much slower than C/C++, but it doesn’t usually matter when you’re writing non-intensive graphical programs. Also, I’m not sure how you managed to mistake “graphical front-ends” with OS GUI.
Anyway, Creating a python-like language that compiles into C isn’t really that hard if your a decent programmer; I should know, I’ve already looked into it heavily.
– bytecoder
Anyway, Creating a python-like language that compiles into C isn’t really that hard if your a decent programmer; I should know, I’ve already looked into it heavily.
I wouldn’t recommend the guy developing SkyOS to venture that himself, better to keep the focus…
If he really wanted to go on the Python direction (which I agree would be good), he’d better pick something ready and use it.
Well, the problem with that is that there really isn’t anything good enough to (generally) replace C++ out there. Python is great and all, but it’s incredibly slow. O’Caml comes close speed-wise, but it falls short in general applicability. The language of choice for an OS is very important, and if it’s well-liked, it can help foster a nice dev community, which is why I don’t think he should skimp on something like this.
If you don’t write shity Ocaml code it’s faster then C++, the only compiler thats then faster is the Intel C compiler, the Intel C++ being slower again.
I’m nos sure what you mean with “applicability”, since the only thing I can think of that keeps ocaml from being used is that so few people know it (or even aoubt it).
“Well, the problem with that is that there really isn’t anything good enough to (generally) replace C++ out there”
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/
I may be way off base, but I’ve found that code produced by dmd is much slower than C compiled through gcc.
So? At least then they might produce a decent product, even if they don’t give back. Helping a company make a better product is considered giving back to the community in my book. Even if they do charge for it, you still have the option of using the open source version and improving it.
So? At least then they might produce a decent product, even if they don’t give back. Helping a company make a better product is considered giving back to the community in my book. Even if they do charge for it, you still have the option of using the open source version and improving it.
So write your own code and release it under a BSD license and then companies can use the code all they want, whether they give back or not.
Really, it is up to the developers what license their software uses, not the users. So, like I said, write your own code and respect other programmer’s wishes.
There is a reason they chose the GPL….just in-case you weren’t aware of this 😛
Everyone has the right to do what they want. But isn’t it ok to have our own opinion and share that?
To me people who release code under GPL has this mentality:
Since i can’t make money off software, i will make sure no one can Or we can look at it like:
I like doing coding but the work that i share, i want to make sure that the contribution to it are shared back because there are many mean people out there who will steal it and misuse it otherwise.
And the one who release BSD think:
Coding is my passion and thats what i do. I give it to people for free so that they can use it as they find suitable.
To me frankly it is immaterial what developers think, i simply don’t like GPL since i feel GPL will cause long term irreversible damage to software industry.
For once again to people who are not clear why i think GPL is not good for Our industry health:
Universities do research->Release code under BSD-> Companies benefit from it and make a product out of it->Companies make money->Donate some back to universities->Universities get more resources for research.
GPL on the other hand kills this eco-system. Many average GPL tools have killed better commercial tools since it is difficult to compete with FREE unless you have features which no one else has which is very difficult to do in software.
Unfortunately dumb trolls are allowed to vote … this is very bad for the community …. Especially when good people post great posts only to have lame trolls vote you down … any os mods around? Anyways, you make some excellent points, and perfect facts concerning the mentality of GPL and BSD based licenses …
Voted up ..
I think trying to generalize the mentality of GPL users in such a negative way, and putting BSD in such a postitive light seems a bit trollish to me.
BSD and GPL both have their merits, and I find that there are situations when it seems more reasonable to use BSD, but there are also times GPL makes more sense.
GPL Mentality falls under: if you want to use this code, I want the ability to use your code too.
BSD is simply: Here’s the code, use it how you wish, just make sure I get credit for what I wrote.
The difference between my examples and your’s is that you threw motive into it. “Coding is my passion” “i want to make sure no one can,” your spinning BSD as honorable and GPL as restrictive and dictoreal in motive. I think thats total bullocks. Everyone has their own reason for doing it, I don’t think passion or money are any part of it.
To me BSD seems careless (about what the code is used for) and GPL seems very groupie (i.e. if you want to use our code, join our group and only THEN can you use it)
I hope this doesn’t get voted down by people who are stern supporters of either side, I tried to be fair and honost, and remember, this is all my opinion about how it is, if you think I’m wrong, post a reply.
Universities do research->Release code under BSD-> Companies benefit from it and make a product out of it->Companies make money->Donate some back to universities->Universities get more resources for research.
Welcome to fantasy land. Population – You. If the company involved was penny pinching by using OSS in the first place, do you really think they’ll go out of their way to pay anyone for anything? It may happen, but it would be the exception, not the rule.
GPL on the other hand kills this eco-system. Many average GPL tools have killed better commercial tools since it is difficult to compete with FREE unless you have features which no one else has which is very difficult to do in software.
So? If you’re trying to build a tool that competes in a crowded marketplace, then design and build a better mousetrap, make it proprietary and hope someone finds it useful enough to pay for it. BTW, why does the above paragraph single out GPL tools when the same would apply to tools licensed under the BSD license? Your bias is coming through loud and clear.
Personally, I like both licenses and believe both have their place. Whining about one not being enough like the other is just pointless. If you don’t like the license the software is licensed under, there’s no point whining about it – just ignore it and move along.
Now, back on topic, I can’t help but be impressed with the progress SkyOS is making. Every update brings jumps in functionality and additional apps. Great work guys! Can’t wait for 1.0
> To me people who release code under GPL has this mentality: Since i can’t make money off software, i will make sure no one can
You couldn’t be more wrong. I mean, yes, there are SOME people who have that mentality. The majority of opensource developers I contact to, have this mentality:
“I know that I’m not almighty, so if I release the code under GPL, people can help me to develop a better tool me me and for them”
GLP is just a licence, your philosophic whine on the eco-system of software coding is flawed and not based on reality; but pure rhetoric.
To code must have a few brain cells to rub together, so I assume coders are smart enough to decide what licence to code under.
So I guess your little whine about the GLP licence would have little effect on swaying anybodys opinion.
-5 from me Einstein.
if you want it to be fast… why not write it in assembly? lol
I already know O’Caml is fast. It’s just, so ackward to use, although I don’t know why. It just doesn’t seem as elegant as python is.
“Well, the problem with that is that there really isn’t anything good enough to (generally) replace C++ out there.”
Actually, not true. The D Programming Language serves exactly that purpose, the only thing it lacks is widespread adoption. See http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
I’ll say this…. I have always been a supporter of gpl and to a certain extent I still am…. however.. if I start to see the balance go to much towards gpl I will support BSD more or in certain instances even closed source liscensing.
A large liscensing imbalance is not good for anybody, however, the balance of liscensing causes intense competition and gives us, the consumers a much better product.
anyway… there is no reason for SkyOS to go GPL, it is his right to go closed source just as much as it is our right to go gpl or bsd or whatever.
time will tell if he made the right decision, and if he didn’t…. he may open the source.
It seems that people are to religous about this gpl/bsd/closed liscensing… I think it is a good thing to have a balance between the various liscensing and I think it would be detrememtal to the industry and to hundreds of thousands of jobs to make everying opensource. If everything is closed source.. that opens up the opposite extreme….. price gouging.
I will do what I can to maintain balance
everything opensource
First things first, C++ is still widely used in the industry and has a proven track record.
Secondly, Why the heck would anyone want to create a new language for an OS they are developing, I mean, your trying to get developers interested, not drive them away by telling them “Our new language is the best way to do things, please take several months out to learn it”.
Thirdly, Win32API thoughts… imho, a wise decision, ALOT of developers KNOW the Win32API calls (And as someone who has used them for years, they really arn’t that bad at all), and it’s very easy to throw your own C++ class wrappers around it, not to mention easy to get other compilers to support your own OS.. Take for example FreePascal and Lazarus (Delphi clone front end) – It sounds to me like this project could easily be ported to SkyOS without much effort, giving SkyOS developers a speedy Delphi style interface.
Just my 2cents worth in to the kettle.
Stop talking about politics!!!! ! !! Who cares what license its under!! Seriously this is turning into some sort of obsession!!!
Just wanted to let you people know.. after you get tired of debating the damn GPL and skyos (like always). btw, you don’t have to think about paying $30 for beta testing, instead if you prefer, it’s $30 for skyos 5.0 final, and the beta is just a free perk for paying up front for the final version. The way I think about it is that by the time I am done beta testing and 5.0 comes out, all my reported bugs will have been worked out.
I am a beta tester for skyos. The last revision is much better than ever. Of course it still is buggy. I am currently having trouble with the automatic dhcp that is built in. However when it does work firefox is blazing fast on skyos. For some reason firefox works so good on skyos it’s unbelievable. Pages render in a split second and browsing is super fast. I guess maybe skyos’s tcp/ip stack is just really fast and efficient or something. Or maybe it’s the new kernel.
Anyways, Skyos installed in about 7 minutes for me with all the packages available. In beta 8.4 it took around 11 minutes, so some definite speed improvements can be seen this time.
unfortunately my 6800gt is still unsupported. but what can you expect when Nvidia refuses to support alternative OS’s. The Vesa 2.0 driver works ok in the mean time.
what’s my opinion of skyos? I like it a lot because it doesn’t require me to know what is going on behind of scenes in order to config the whole system. Instead it just boots up and automatically makes all my hardware work. Something windows nor linux can do at the moment. Provided though that skyos still has limited support for drivers.
I use Gentoo Linux and Windows XP on a everyday basis, and Skyos seems like a mixture of both. It has a windows like interface, however it also has a lot of the features that MacOS touts, such as realtime indexing and “it just works” type of install. I can see that a lot of linux stuff is implemented in there too, but skyos covers up all the config with a simple MacOS like control panel that let’s you config the whole system with a few clicks.
ok, just wanted to give you my impression. Maybe i’ll write a review.
I guess it comes down to a matter of timing. If this was 1995, then SkyOS might be able to play off the whole pay for the Beta scheme, but with fairly mature hobbyist desktop environments like KDE and Gnome, then there is less of a reason…even it is a measly $30
My question is what does SkyOS offer over someone taking the linux kernel and doing something novel in userspace? You get all the drivers for free and don’t have to worry about the viralness of the GPL in userspace.
In any case, best of luck to the SkyOS team.
Pardon me, why are KDE and Gnome “hobbyist desktop environments” ?
What would be “a professional desktop environment” in your view?
That should have been “Can’t wait for 5.0”
“Apple OSX”
And the problem is that companies can’t take GPL work, improve it and market. No wonder there is no cool UI like Apple for Linux.
“Apple OSX” – Well, since the education market has been Apple’s biggest cashcow for a long long time, they kinda have a vested interest there don’t they. But besides that, as I said before, it’s the exception and not the rule.
And the problem is that companies can’t take GPL work, improve it and market. – It’s not a problem for the author of the code and ultimately (and rightly so I might add) they’re the ones that decide how their code should be used. If the company wants to use OSS code in this way then they’re more than welcome to use BSD licensed code instead.
No wonder there is no cool UI like Apple for Linux. – It’s just a matter of time really. Here’s just one of several that are being worked on:
http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/xshots
Can’t wait ’till it’s ready!
First of all get a name. Second you are a dumbass. Third read my post again. Commercialization is inherent necceasity for industrial growth. GPL is crippling industry.
Name one good innovative software designed by your so called GPL brothers? Most of the innovation has happened in universities and commercial companies but with advent of GPL, it is cutting the legs of industry to stand on the shoulder of industry research.
People like you want all the things free in your life and you can’t see other making money because you are jealous but my friend, prosperity brings prosperity. Wonder if anyone would like to work if they get beer and food for free.
Now shut up your fuckin stallman dog type crap.
And about IBM, IBM is the biggest fokked up company. They know they make money by selling hardware and they are using Linux as a puppet. Its not even worth talking to morons like you…
I have seen the screenshots and i must say it looks attractive.I’m a happy gentoo user and know what you mean.They seem to target the OSX way inside Linux,so in the end a lot of people could say it just works and doesn’t look that awfull.
Why do comments on SkyOS always are about the GPL, but not about SkyOS itself? Only a small group of people do that, so you all lose focus guys. Try for once talking about something relevant when SkyOS is mentioned, talking with GPL zealots is plain boring and they never learn so there’s no use for a discussion. GPL zealots – fcuk you!
Yes, mod me down, I will have 100% proof that GPL zealots exist here. Else no-one would be bothered by this comment.
Why do the comments alwaystend to focus on GPL and not on the tremendous (or so we’re told) improvements in SkyOS itself?
Hmm…perhaps its this wa for the simpl reason that if SkyOS /were/ under GPL then it would be possible to test out the fcuking thing–as it is all these once intresting announcements on OSNiews.com ammount to is recollections of the ‘Look at my new toy!’ handwaving so many of us recall from childhood visits to the neighborhood spoilted brat who always had th cool toys that only his ‘extra special but only for today bestest friend’….
Make the betas releasable under some type of beta-testers’ license allowing for bitorrent release and incorporate some kind of time bomb (ala Winows 2003 Server betas) to prevent any use of the betas after the final reease and most importantly make the debuggers and error reporting tools on by default so as to nab any and all useful info….Then, THEN you might find more of us discussing the behavior of the latest features, and what hardware support has een improved ala the intresting post commenting on the length of time decreasing to install as compared to earler betas. And what d’ya know all without costing Robert anything in extra bandwith (except maybe for the phone homes in those error reportng tools) and it may even lead to (Gasp Shock) more sales down the road by someone who triedout the betas and remembers them fondly.
As it is now…we’re bored already with hearing about how great this new toy you have is and would like to either discuss ways to convince you to let us pay too or would like to play something else, something you don’t need to be a ‘cool kid’ to play with.
–bornaganpenguin
Apropos new toys: darn, your nick is better than mine, LOL!
>>darn, your nick is better than mine, LOL!
Glad you like it, it took me a while to consider just what I’d like in a new name–one that reflects my current feelings with computers and operating systems…bornagainpenguin was I felt highly appropriate given my old username was iWindoze (something intended to play off the whole iMac and ‘lets make windows look like a Mac craze that hit a few years back and originally based on the old Windowblinds skin ‘iWin’ does anyone even remember that one? but recently I’ve had people in the Linux community not take me seriously about tryingwanting to move to Linux full time and a name change was appropriate, and this one most appropriate of all…)
unfortunately my ‘new’ (used) laptop has a few sticky keys and I ended up mistyping my user name….d’ya think there might be a way some how to get the mods to allow me to fix it?
[looks at mods] Hint…hint…Please?
Nice story. My nick was at first FedupPenguin at Distrowatch, I used it when I was annoyed about something. But it wasn’t a nick I could keep using forever, so I went for the present one.
Some people say: you are anonymous.
I reply: darn, I am not anonymous, “Anonymous Penguin” is my chosen nickname!
I am also much better known under another nick, but here and at DistroWatch I just wanted to be an Anonymous Penguin, one among many others.
As to the typo, try to get in touch with them, “Contact Us”, top left of the page.
That’s a cool story too..
As for contacting them, I intend to–I just don’t know how much work it will be on their end and hesitate to bug ’em about something that was more or less my own fault…
–bornagainpenguin
As it is now…we’re bored already with hearing about how great this new toy you have is and would like to either discuss ways to convince you to let us pay too or would like to play something else, something you don’t need to be a ‘cool kid’ to play with.
As much as I hate to admit it, I know you have a very good point.
+ vote for you too!
You mean having spent $30 makes you a cool kid? Oh brother. This is a commercial product and you have to pay for it. It is really cheap. If you cannot live with that fact then fine, but don’t bring up the same old discussion about open-sourcing SkyOS as it will simply not happen. You can have any of the many other operating systems that are both free and open-source. Their way is fine, I’m a happy Ubuntu user myself. But it doesn’t mean it’s the *only* “true” way of doing things. Nobody moans about Microsoft not open-sourcing their products anymore, I hope the same will be with SkyOS. Have a good day
now this is just conjecture but, i’mma hazard the guess that the main market for altos lies in the college age (and a bit beyond) (the old fogeys having been using *nix so long they feel no desire to change) demographic and to most kids in college or fresh out of it any money is a lot of money, especially when the return value is uncertain.
>>You mean having spent $30 makes you a cool kid?
No, I mean getting to play with a cutting edge rapidly evolving OS that looks like it might actually be a ‘good’ Windows replacememnt for home users…fooling around with a new toy…since SkyOS is not yet available in stores or as a viable general release and betas are all that are truly available all it CAN be is a toy to play with.
>>If you cannot live with that fact then fine, but don’t bring
>>up the same old discussion about open-sourcing SkyOS
>>as it will simply not happen.
Fine with me, just don’t expect the rest of us to pay any attention to your new shiny OS that no one can play with.
>>You can have any of the many other operating systems
>>that are both free and open-source. Their way is fine, I’m
>>a happy Ubuntu user myself. But it doesn’t mean it’s the
>>*only* “true” way of doing things.
Congratulations on your Ubuntu experience. (Have you tried XYZ? LOL, no seriously!) I’m glad that you’ve found a Linux to your liking, there’s one for everybody…join the party! I’ve begun to like Ubuntu quite well now that I’ve found the ‘unofficial’ addon cd made by some of the Ubuntu forumers. That said this completely emphaises and underscores my point…if you go back and reread my post (go ahead I’ll wait..)
…
(You ARE rereading, aren’t you? ;P)
…
I only mentioned the GPL (or open sourcing) SkyOS in connection with an answer to the question of why SkyOS discussions always degenerate into GPL (or accusations of improper GPL usage which I personally think Robert is too intelligent to have commited..) rants and so little SkyOS focused commentary takes place. My answer: Not enough people have access to the betas to make commentary–a state of affiars that hurts EVERYONE including SkyOS and its users.
You may note on your careful re-reading of my post that except mentioning the GPL in relation to it being /one/ way to open things up to allow everyone to participate (or to ‘play’ if you will…:P) I don’t make any mention of the GPL in my own suggestions for solving the problem of there being a derth of SkyOS related commentary. Let’s try not to hurt ourselves noding our heads in agreement with each other, okay? I haven’t brought the GPL into play here–you have.
Me–? I just wanna see how this cool toy behaves on my hardware…[laughs] but I’m not about to pay for the privledge of seeing if it will, even if it DOES net me a cool looking official cd-rom some day in the future.
I’ll stick to the things I can try before I buy, thank you very much. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Plenty of other fish in the sea, and soon enough others will realize that and you’ll see the SkyOS discussions with only a token few comments at every story much like you see with RiscOS and the various incarnations of Amiga. ‘tho I’m not quite sure that will be an improvement….
[quote]
Make the betas releasable under some type of beta-testers’ license allowing for bitorrent release and incorporate some kind of time bomb (ala Winows 2003 Server betas) to prevent any use of the betas after the final reease and most importantly make the debuggers and error reporting tools on by default so as to nab any and all useful info….Then, THEN you might find more of us discussing the behavior of the latest features, and what hardware support has een improved ala the intresting post commenting on the length of time decreasing to install as compared to earler betas. And what d’ya know all without costing Robert anything in extra bandwith (except maybe for the phone homes in those error reportng tools) and it may even lead to (Gasp Shock) more sales down the road by someone who triedout the betas and remembers them fondly.
[/quote]
You hit the nail straight on. Perfect.
You hit the nail straight on. Perfect.
Agreed. Really.
I agree too.
What SkyOS really needs is a growing community of developers who code 3rd party applications.
To increase the number of people who use/try (and like) SkyOS is the way to get them.
This solution wouldn’t disadvantage actual memebers of the beta team too, cause…the actual “beta membership” is actually about spopnsoring alternate os development AND getting SkyOS 5 final.
As a beta tester, I would actually welcome some move that would increase the SkyOS user/tester/coder base.
On a completely different subject now, I think Osnews should take (more drastic) measures to keep skyos threads on the focus.
Why not automatically get a -2 rating to a post in the skyos thread that would use the words “GPL” or “OPEN SOURCE” ?
I am really SICK (as might be many others) of having to parse 50 opensource zealots posts to get to the actual 10 interesting SkyOS posts…
Lakedaemon
>Why not automatically get a -2 rating to a post in the >skyos thread that would use the words “GPL” or “OPEN >SOURCE” ?
Because things like SkyIRC now under GPL would immediately be below the threshold and nobody would see it. Now this might be a bit rude so you pansies can stop reading now. If some of you anti GPL, pro SkyOS zealots could pull you head out of your ass long enough to look at the some of the software that runs on you chosen platform you would finally understand that the GPL and Open Source is a good thing, especially for you. If neither existed your platform would have no software, no compiler and without those two no users.
Wait, who has said that Open Source is bad? No one in this topic. The only things have been said that I can figure that you got confused enough into thinking that someone here said OSS was bad were the “quit asking for SkyOS to be Open Sourced”. Which certainly isn’t a bad thing to ask. Seemingly everytime something about SkyOS gets posted on OSnews, someone, somewhere, manages to bring up the point that “omg SkyOS isn’t GPL, I won’t use it”. The only thing I can say to that is: Grow up.
>Seemingly everytime something about SkyOS gets posted on >OSnews, someone, somewhere, manages to bring up the >point that “omg SkyOS isn’t GPL, I won’t use it”. The >only thing I can say to that is: Grow up.
What’s your fucking point? Every time somebody brings up MacOSX somebody bitches about how Aqua is not Open Source and how it is not fair since Darwin is based on FreeBSD, but you know what, THOSE THREDS DON’T END IN FLAME WARS!!!!! Some people just aren’t very grown up, maybe because they are minors, its not like we check for IDs. Ignore them, masturbate, do whatever you want just don’t post another “I am so sick and tired of this shit” post. OK?
Come on, you are acting like SkyOS is being singled out by some sort of nut jobs. What about all the BSD is dying or BSD is dead. UNIX will die this year and so on posts that liter the internet? No mater how it feels like to you know, you are not being singled out, but by 6 billion people on the planet, lots with PCs and Internet, couldn’t it just be that some idiots got internet access to? Hey AOLs everywhere you know.
I never said anything about being singled out. Where I implied that, I have no idea. Those other instances are certainly valid, I hate having to sift through those too. Maybe you should calm down?
Actually I am calm; I’m just taking it with humor. Problem is people don’t agree with me on what is funny.
Lighten up people.
Great post.
I really couldn’t care less whether or not SkyOS is open source, but I do think they’re missing out on a great community of OS geeks out there that will happily test it out and report bugs and altogether make it a far better system, this shoudn’t cost either side any money, and both stand to gain. Also, by allowing betas, SkyOS could gain far more people who are willing to pay for the OS.
Release the betas, you can’t lose!
Why GPL it ? You can BSD it. LGPL, MPL, multilicense, etc.
The license is not so important (you can make your own too), but open source it !
This wil benefit the community, business and let the project grow better.
Marco Radossevich
SkyOS is getting some really nice features lately yet it still looks simple & oldskool. This is going to be a great OS! I think we need OS’s like this to give big boys (Windows, Linux, BSD) something to think about. Even a small group can create an awsome product
.
What I don’t like about SkyOS is that iit’s so similar to Windows. Why the hell someone should use a windows a like system instead of Windows.
Well I don’t care if someone asks for money or doesn’t use the GPL – but just for using soemthiing like Windows – no thanks.
What I don’t like about SkyOS is that iit’s so similar to Windows. Why the hell someone should use a windows a like system instead of Windows.
Care to elaborate on this? What parts do you find too similar to Windows? Have you actually used SkyOS?
You are right about SkyOS being too similar to Windows, but the SkyOS team said they are doing that because else they will scare off Windows users.
It’s a discussion, problem is SkyOS and OSS go hand in hand, SkyOS uses Open Source software for its user applications.
Many people view it as, you should only reap what you sow, and many of these “Zealots” believe the SkyOS team are not sowing enough, and reaping plenty.
I personally do not care if my OS is Open, Closed, Commercial or Free, as long as it does what I want. But many have strong views about Open Source, I know there are a few in the SkyOS community who would be considered SkyOS Zealots, at one time I myself was probably considered one.
You maybe fed up with the “Open it then I’ll use it” comments, and that’s fine, I understand where you are coming from here. Should we also stop the un-educated comments aswell? such as some OS users dismissing Linux as s fad? dismissing BSD simply as a dying OS?
Thing is we can educate un-educated people, the same is with the OSS “Zealot” comments educate them, and show that SkyOS is giving back / is going to give back; show them the OS is worth while using.
You can spout facts, figures, and technical jargon to do this, but theres nothing like real hands on experience, so the idea proposed by “Bornagainpenguin” would help “educate” these people.
Well…. I think you are a bit too idealistic there but I concede that you are right.
Mind you, I only suggested to automatically mod these “open source it” posts down a bit, to spare time for the modders and the readers that come in the SkyOS threads for usefull information.
Isn’t it what the post-rating is all about ?
To come back to mister Bornagainpenguin’s post.
It looks like a few people here finds it sensible.
Maybee we should point his post to Robert and have his comments on the subject (it would be interesting).
On the other side, maybee Kelly and him already thought about that and dismissed the idea
Lakedaemon.
(quote)
To come back to mister Bornagainpenguin’s post.
It looks like a few people here finds it sensible.
Maybee we should point his post to Robert and have his comments on the subject (it would be interesting).
(/quote)
Since Tom H. seems to be know SkyOS well, maybe he could use that post as starting point for an interview with Robert, or write an article expanding these ideas and present it to him..
My name is Thom, with an H (*not* derived from Thomas– it’s just that– Thom).
Anyway, these issues have been brought up to Robert numerous times. First only by minor individuals like me. Later on, a few months back now, a letter was sent to Robert & team, undersigned by almost every long-time SkyOS fan. In this letter we made a few proposals that could improve SkyOS’ stability, development process, and more (we were begging for a feature freeze, for instance, something SkyOS needs imho, and in the opinion of other prominents too).
This letter was, for the most part, discarded, and of course Robert has every right to do that (it’s his project, after all). That’s why some of the undersigned basically left the community. Including me.
If you want to renew that effort, feel free to go to the SkyOS forums and post about it. I’ve stopped trying.
You’re absolutely right. It’s his project. So stop acting bitter, as though he owed you something. That’s why all the whining here (and to a lesser extent in the OSX-X86) threads annoys me. People think a company or a person owes them something, something for free. Get over it. Not all things in life are free, and there’s lots of non-free things that are good.
(That flame wasn’t entirely directed at you. It was directed at all of the whiners.)
(Yes, my comment score average just died. Sigh.)
I’m not acting bitter, I just explained that we already sent Robert a letter, and what his reply was. I see no bitterness.
And about the free thing, It’s not because I want SkyOS to be free just for the sake of it being free. All I’m saying is, is that SkyOS would get better stresstesting and more developers if it were more easily available to people. That’s all.
It’s a 2-way road, SkyOS certainly have interest on using news sites like OSNews to publicize his software, and then gotta accept criticisms and suggestions.
It’s a very common phenomenom among some software developers to keep improving it, adding functionality, fixing bugs, and never release it, always having the feeling that there’s a bit more to be done, a bit more to be improved, one more cool functionality to be added.
The problem might get even worst if the software in question is a one-man-show, as it seems to be the case on SkyOS.
Robert should let his baby go, it’s grown enough
The post by bornagainenguin is one of the most lucid I’ve read about SkyOS in ages.
Both me and Thom are from the SkyOS community and date back from SkyOS’s 3.X.X days, but of late I have moved away from the community, I can’t speak for Thom, but I do enjoy watching SkyOS’s progress, I just don’t follow it as rigorously as I used to (when I setup eXpert Zone as a SkyOS news / help site).
But yes someone should present the ideas to Robert, and Kelly and see what happens from there.
True, I am being idealistic… we can all dream can’t we?
The biggest problem with the voting system is that sure we can vote comments down to -5, but as quick as we can do that somebody else could vote it to +5. The voting system is more of a community based democracy, if the comment is totally insane vote it down, if you are unsure leave it be, and if its the best comment ever vote it up.
All i can suggest is that people in the SkyOS community register and help balance the democracy.
Sorry for mispelling your name, and thanks for the explanation regardings Robert’s position on that. Too bad. Seems like not everyone have Linus’ detachment and vision.
There is a way to try SkyOS, and not by pirating it. Kelly and Robert have repeatedly said in the forums that if you are a developer, who would like to write programs for SkyOS or port some of yours they will give you access to the beta program. The only thing being that they want serious people who produce. In other words they are trusting you to make the applications you say you are going to, not to take the beta say oh well and do nothing.
[quote:]
There is a way to try SkyOS, and not by pirating it. Kelly and Robert have repeatedly said in the forums that if you are a developer, who would like to write programs for SkyOS or port some of yours they will give you access to the beta program. The only thing being that they want serious people who produce. In other words they are trusting you to make the applications you say you are going to, not to take the beta say oh well and do nothing.
[:quote]
: /
To me, IMHO that IS pirating SkyOS…you’re promising to develop for the system, using their resources (bandwith, time, ect) and then not giving them anything back. The very definition of theft. Not trying to be personal about it, just the way I feel.
–bornagainpenguin
Problem is, that they don’t highlight this fact on the “Site” it’s all well and good mentioning it in the forum, but it’s highly unlikely any developer is going to sift through reems of posts looking for “serious developers can get the Beta free”
@Youll
Well… I just registered…And I’ll help with the balancing if I can
@Thom
[quote]
In this letter we made a few proposals that could improve SkyOS’ stability, development process, and more…
[quote]
Those are sensible thoughts too. From my distant point of view, it often looked as if there was no roadmap, no planning, no organisation in the SkyOS development process…And It made me wonder….
Well..one year after signing for beta membership,
I must acknowledge that :
1) SkyOS improves fast (essentially due to Robert “I have 5 arms & 3 brains” coding skills and involvment).
2) We have no clue what the next new features will be,
but usually, they are worth the wait.
3) bugs are squashed in a somewhat random manner…
Actually, Robert looks like he isn’t the kind of guy that works best when tied to a development process based on routin and disciplin…
And I would bet my horse that, given a choice between squashing bugs or doing documentation work, he would choose to implement a new feature…
humans…sigh…..
So, maybee that’s the reason why this letter of yours didn’t have the result you expected…
(even though your ideas are sensible, maybee Robert would just hate working under these conditions)
@Youll and Thom
If you don’t want to , I might
post on the SkyOS forums and ask Kelly if he could get in touch with Robert and get us answers to a few questions :
1) what about Mister pengui’s idea ?
2) now that Beta 8.5 is released, what next Beta 8.6 or beta 9, and what to expect ?
3) As Beta 8 was about networking, what about USB ?
Lakedaemon
I believe that Beta 9 will be about reenabling USB.
thom, that’s fine since you’ve been around the skyos scene for a while and you AND A FEW other guys sent a letter to management about what you feel about the OS, but you need to be careful with your new position here at OSnews on what you promote and don’t.
I’m sorry, but what is the point of this operating system? It’s closed source, but offers nothing of competitive advantage compared to open source (and free) OSes like Linux or FreeBSD. When looking at the screenshots, you see nothing but ported GPL software like Firefox, Thunderbird, Nvu, etc. It looks like a Linux clone with a less thought-out UI.
My question is: who would want to pay for something resembling a Linux clone without any compelling advantages over Windows except the price tag? What is the target audience? Clueless PC users who _are_ aware of alternative OSes but _haven’t_ heard of Linux? Sorry again, but that target audience doesn’t exist.
You see nothing but ported GPL software like Firefox, Thunderbird, Nvu
Erm, get your facts straight: FireFox and Thunderbird are MPL, and NVU is MPL/LGPL/GPL tri-license.
>>You see nothing but ported GPL software like Firefox, >>Thunderbird, Nvu
>Erm, get your facts straight: FireFox and Thunderbird >are MPL, and NVU is MPL/LGPL/GPL tri-license.
Get your facts straight? Come on, you are being to picky, if you name me any larger GPL license body of code I could find parts under the LGPL or GPL + amendment or derived (and hence still under) from MIT/X and BSD code. Besides what about GIMP, Blender (yes, yes with BSD, don’t get picky again), Gaim and so on. The point is a point even if you pick on its minute details.
You probably need to get your facts straight too, as the source code of Firefox and Thunderbird is mostly released under the MPL/LGPL/GPL tri-license as well. Have a look at http://mozilla.org/MPL/ as well as http://mozilla.org/MPL/relicensing-faq.html (note that relicensing is done to a very great part nowadays).
Anyway. the point was that it’s free software, available in e.g. Linux and FreeBSD. Why pay for an OS that has no unique value and offers no benefits compared to the free alternatives?
>You probably need to get your facts straight too, as the >source code of Firefox and Thunderbird is mostly >released under the MPL/LGPL/GPL tri-license as well. >Have a look at http://mozilla.org/MPL/ as well as >http://mozilla.org/MPL/relicensing-faq.html (note that >relicensing is done to a very great part nowadays).
Who gives a shit? The point originally made by the poster was not about some brain-dead licensing minutia yet that is what people attack in his comment. As soon as I point this out some dickhead goes back to the licensing thing rather then let it be good enough. Me thinks that the problem with the SkyOS threads that people just cant stop bitching about have got more to do with people nitpicking other peoples shit for irrelevant data to attack. What is this? Politics, where you attack the persons integrity if you cant fend of his arguments?
Yes, if MacOS X is minority, OS/2 died, BeOS died and Zeta attracts only for a few geeks, who will be interested in an closed and non-free OS to run multiplatform and free applications ?
Speed.
Of the OS and of its development.
Those are the two things most people are intrested in most in an alternative OS and SkyOS seems to have them both in spades…
I say seems because I simply have nothing to base anything on…but it would be nice to have something that ‘just works’ and ‘works well’ but is NOT Windows.
Price is only a small part of things. Not even the main part.
–bornagainpenguin
So let me just list a few things:
1. If you are interested in developing for SkyOS you can get a free membership in order to use the betas (until 5.0 finals comes out).
2. 5.0 Final will be a packaged cd product, shipped to your home. You are paying $30 right now for that. The beta access is just an extra perk for paying right now. If you like, you could just wait for 5.0 final and pay then. Plus, when 5.0 final comes out it has been said the price might go up.
3. A free “timebomb” SkyOS release would never work because history has taught us that if you make copy protection, it will be broken. In fact, there are old skyos betas and cracks for those betas floating around on p2p software. The skyos team is aware of it, as we even get people who unknowningly go onto our forums and start posting about their problems with SkyOS, even though they don’t have beta access.
4. Eventually a FREE SkyOS live cd will come out. It’s expected to come out around 5.0 final. You have to realize that the live cd will just be to satisfy those who want to see the OS before they buy it. SkyOS has a lot of advanced features that require the native SkyFS in order to function correctly. Already in our beta cd’s we have a live-cd like option, but much of the software in Live-cd mode cannot work without a hard drive. I guess that will be fixed eventually.
5. What’s the appeal of SkyOS when you have Linux and Windows already? Windows is just too expensive for many to legally obtain. Linux is just too complicated generally for people to even begin to think about installing it. And those linux installions that are easy also cost money. SkyOS is on the cutting edge of OS’s. We already have realtime indexing. A 3D system implemented. Photorealistic shadow support. A really good system viewer/file manager. Latest apps.
6. Things we lack are driver support for many devices. but you have to realize that Robert is not yet ready to release all the API and documention in order to create drivers. He is more interested in implementing new features and getting the bugs worked out of them. When the time is right, he will release the driver development kit and many other kits for developers.
7. You should be happy he is using GPL software because any changes and fixes he makes he submits back to the source. SkyFS for example was a derivative of Open BeFS and he managed to squash many of the bugs to make it a viable FS for skyos. He also plans to release many documents explaining how to port firefox for example. He ported NVU in only a few days after somebody requested it.
“Linux is just too complicated generally for people to even begin to think about installing it.”
I find installing Ubuntu to be as easy as installing Windows XP on a new computer. Generally, though, I agree about Linux being too complicated.
“SkyOS is on the cutting edge of OS’s. We already have realtime indexing. A 3D system implemented. Photorealistic shadow support. A really good system viewer/file manager. Latest apps.”
Do you think your target audience will appeal to those arguments? You have yet to come up with one compelling reason to choose this operating system over another. There is nothing that you just mentioned that would make a Real User choose SkyOS over other commercial operating systems. As I said in my original post, the only compelling reason is the price tag, but I also said you could get all this for free if you choose e.g. Linux.
I’m certainly not against non-GPL software. I’d be happy to pay for software that helps me get my job done. However, in order to switch from something familiar, compatible, and working to some new solution called SkyOS, you just have to have better arguments than the price tag. If it’s just about the cost, Linux fits my needs like a glove.
I’ve been reading the skyos.org website and found no argument to choose SkyOS over other OS’es. It offers nothing that other OS’es don’t have. Most of the software bundled is freely available.
Maybe I shouldn’t judge an unfinished product, since the final version 5.0 will not be released until next year. On the other hand, skyos.org is already promoting the unfinished product as “an alternative for people looking for a fast, stable, inexpensive, and most of all, user-friendly desktop experience”, along with screenshots showing off some popular open-source apps wrapped in a strange OS UI environment. Where’s the selling arguments? I just read technical terms like 64-bit journaled filesystem and UTF-8 support. Your target audience don’t care about that.
Speaking of technical details, the FAQ claims that “SkyOS uses no GPL’d code in the kernel/system.” However, the tour lists Ext2/Ext3 filesystem support as one of its features. I find that a bit amusing.
1. If you can prove you are serious about developing for SkyOS you can get a free copy, but I haven’t seen a good explanation about how to qualify as serious.
2. Given.
3. Given. But once SkyOS reaches a usable state and a larger audience p2p copies will be unavoidable. I’m not saying that this in any way affects your statement about a “timebomb” SkyOS copy.
4. Given.
5. I’m not too fond of Windows and there are things that annoy me about Linux. But since I like my Unix underpipings and want better quality hardware my next PC will be an Intel based Mac.
6. Yes, Robert has his interests, thing is those alone don’t build a viable OS. He would be well advised to release those parts of the OS (cal it a driver kit if you must) that people need to know about to develop or port (from lets say FreeBSD to not have the problem of GPL drivers with a non GPL OS) their own drivers. Some sort of accommodations need to be made and the best time is the sooner the better.
7. I should be happy as what? As SkyOS user or as user of GPL and Open Source software that is also available on SkyOS? I must agree that SkyOS users can be happy since they get good software but how dose it help the GPL and Open Source users? Code is partially not contributed back yet since the SkyOS 5 final version is not out yet and lots of those fixes will be SkyOS specific. Nobody else will care.
Thing is, a hole OS is a large project, especially for one guy and especially if he is doing it alone. He will have to make some accommodations to his users since he can’t do everything that a larger organization like RedHat, Novel, Apple or Microsoft can do. Problem is we have SkyOS users talking and not Robert. Problem is that Robert is a bit of a recluse.
I would like to see all this get sorted out but I know it will take a lot of time.
It says on the site that the beta is available for download. Is it only available to developers or is it available to the public?
Sorry friend, but where have you been? A two years vacation on Mars?
It is available to beta testers only, that is people who have paid 30Eur (or dollars, not quite sure)
SkyOS is coming along nicely. Perhaps it will replace linux as the default OS on the Walmart computers or provide a cheap powerful OS to developing countries. Either way great work guys!