Submitted by The European Commission has threatened to fine Microsoft up to 2m euros [$2.4m] a day until it gives rivals more access to its systems. Brussels said the software giant had failed to supply adequate information about its server programs. Microsoft has five weeks to provide improved documentation before the daily penalties are imposed. But the company pledged to contest the EU’s “unjustified” demands by whatever means possible. Update: Microsoft contests.
per day! That’s a lot of money!! Yeah I know someone will jump out of a bush and say MS does that in 2 hours but damn! I wish I had 1 million just once!
Have they finally found their nemesis? I hope so.
.. they couldn’t expect to get paid.
I think Microsoft use of his monopoly is cristal clear and even USA would have done something if it was not for the fact that Microsoft is american and has strong political influence there (especially with Bush on the throne).
However lately it has been clear that even Europe is not immune to USA companies pressure, so I wouldn’t count Microsoft “beaten” just yet.
Diego
This is just a shakedown attempt by a corrupt bunch of European thugs. The United States government should retaliate if they don’t stop this extortion attempt.
“The United States government should retaliate if they don’t stop this extortion attempt.”
It would come as no surprise to me this is exactly what will likely happen. And very soon.
The EU is just being fair towards other players on the market; monopolies are bad for an innovative economy, luckily they acknowledge that in the beautiful EU.
Maybe the US can learn something from it, being a country where the democracy is ruled by those with the most money, where the countries budget is drained by a lost war in Iraq causing the highest budget deficit in the history of the US and a country which needs to spy on its own citizens just like the communists did 30 years ago. Come one, present day USA is not a democratic country anymore, stop talking about retaliation, you don’t have the right to, USA is no better than North Korea or Iran.
The EU is chock full of quasi-communist states like France that just can’t compete anymore because of their socialist/statist economic policies. The europeans are looking at a world of hurt when it comes to competing with the Indians and Chinese. Don’t forget that we had two world wars, fascism and communism coming from the europeans in the past century. The european standard of living is lower than it is in the US or Canada (just look at the numbers). Europe is full of old school statist-socialists who want to bring everybody down with them. The US has nothing to learn from the EU. A country like France is pretty much a neutral state to the US and not an ally anymore. There’s nothing democratic or free about statist socialism.
Denmark is a close ally, and as rightwing libertarian I’m every bit as upset about the recent behaviour of USA in regard to a certain country trying to become a member uf EU.
USA is just as quasi-communistic as France is, perhaps even worse. Just look at things like software patents, reengineering (illegal in USA), EULA’s (they are virtually void in Denmark), and so on.
In France the elite has the power – in USA the elite has the power. Your country is a rotten as mine is (unfortunately).
Ya, its corruption. Its not because Microsoft abused its illegally acquired monopoly and is now being punished for it… though only very slightly.
Now now, be nice.
USA is supposed to be a democracy, so stay within your boundary.
We’re allies, and some of us in Europe consider USA to be a very close friend. But if USA keeps using this highly inappropriate mafia style, bossing around with european allies we will actually stop being your friends.
Stop force patents on us – don’t force us to take in certain countries in EU – and please let us be selvgoverned instead of ruled from Washington.
If you dont like it dont use it that simple.
Yeah, wake me up when I can say to my auntie “go to this [random wholesale store name] and buy a PC without any OS installed, I will put ubuntu there for you”
http://www.tigerdirect.com
http://www.newegg.com
etc
You can also go to a lot of local PC stores and ask them to build you one without the OS.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Some companies simply do not want to sell PCs without an OS installed for support reasons. If they sell a PC without an OS, they would be expected to support it no matter what OS was put on it, even if it’s not a hardware issue.
Agreed, and I do that myself. I know my local store won’t object that I don’t ask an OS to go with my hardware parts, the only thing I’m saying is that you cannot do that with a FutureShop, and, roughly speaking, every “newbie” mass-retail computer store out there.
Your point of “they would have to support whatever is installed by the user” is interesting though!
“If you dont like it dont use it that simple.”
Great idea!! There are vastly superior altenatives to MS crapware.
That said, it’s nice to see that the EU has the cajones to stand up to MS and make them obey the law.
South Korea seems to have the same cajones. Good for them. 🙂
Unfortunately, too many U.S. politicians have been thorough paid/offed/lobied by MS, most namely the Bush admin, to grow the cajones to stand up to MS.
Edit: Not a political statement. MS has greased Democrats as well, most notably in Massachucetts where paid off Dems have turned against ODF.
Edit: Not a political statement. MS has greased Democrats as well, most notably in Massachucetts where paid off Dems have turned against ODF.
Thanks for the clarification – otherwise, I might have mistaken this for a political statement.
And where might I find the evidence of the payoffs you allege JeffS? And surely you are not suggesting by the term “offed” that folks have been murdered in the pursuit of MS business? Which politicians were “offed”? I missed that report in the news/web/paper/tv.
I think that Bill’s picture on the article summarizes pretty well his reaction.
They don’t deserve anything else. He might have an humanitarian foundation, but its money is more then dirty!
Walmart!
Good luck finding it nowadays in your average Walmart. Here in CT (and where I go to school outside Chicago) you simply cannot find the notebook you refer to.
They do, of course, carry 4+ pcs with Windows XP preinstalled.
Perhaps Wal-Mart.com will have it.
Yeah. Send the aunt without a computer to walmart.com.
See the problem yet?
If only it was that simple.
Why don’t the companies who need more access get into MS’s shared source program?
That being said, 2.4 mil a day would bankrupt most companies nearly immediately…it really seems like they’re trying to make an example of MS, sounds like some folks are getting a little too big for their pants.
The terms of the Shared Source system are outrageous.
For their MVP Licensing Program:
Program Details
Use and Restrictions
Licensees may read and reference the source code but may not create derivative works.
Eligibility reviewed annually.
MVPs may access source code for the sole purpose of providing support services.
Source code may not be used to assist with the development of a commercially distributed product.
Eligibility Requirements
Maintain status as a Microsoft MVP in good standing.
Reside in an eligible geographic market.
Be 18 years of age or older.
Sign the Master Source Code Agreement and the License Form.
And for their Enterprise:
Use and Restrictions
Licensees may use the source code for the sole purpose of assisting in the support and development of internally deployed products for the Microsoft Windows platform, ongoing support of Microsoft Windows deployments, and internal security audits of the Microsoft Windows operating system.
Source code may not be used to assist with the development of a commercially distributed product.
Licensees may read and reference the source code but may not modify it.
The license term is one year.
Eligibility Requirements:
Be a state /local (or similar) government organization in an eligible geographic market OR maintain 1,500 Windows seats (Windows 2000 or above) under one of the following:
An Enterprise Agreement.
A Select Agreement with Upgrade Advantage or Software Assurance.
Enterprise customers must reside in an eligible geographic market.
Sign the Non-Disclosure Agreement, Master Source Code Agreement and License Form.
From what I read, the shared source program is ONLY for maintaining/assisting with etc. MS products.
This is NOT in ANY WAY viable to MS’ competitors. That’s what has the EU pissed
“Why don’t the companies who need more access get into MS’s shared source program?”
Because the shared source program doesn’t allow you to use the code… just see it.
“That being said, 2.4 mil a day would bankrupt most companies nearly immediately…it really seems like they’re trying to make an example of MS”
Why is it so hard for some people to understand that Microsoft’s abuses deem this kind of response. If anything, this is only a slap on the wrist for the abuses they’ve made over the years.
Whether I agree with what they’ve done or not, it’s their IP to do with what they please…their entire business model is built around it.
I would also think that if these firms are only looking for better integration with MS software, looking at the code should be all they need.
“Whether I agree with what they’ve done or not, it’s their IP to do with what they please…their entire business model is built around it.”
The penalty was constructed in such a way that repaired the damage Microsoft did. A comperable equal alternative would be to fine them 50 billion dollars and give the proceeds to all those companies that were harmed by microsoft’s illegal activity.
“I would also think that if these firms are only looking for better integration with MS software, looking at the code should be all they need.”
The integration is not the problem as Microsoft still maintains the APIs… which are subject to change with any update… hence the reason why the structured the penalty/settlement the way they did.
Alright well I’m done talking about the first point, Europe can feel free to do whatever they want, but MS won’t go out without a fight.
As for the second point, aren’t all software companies like that? MS has been really good about publishing changes pretty quickly, and I suspect that members of of the SSI get the updates much sooner than anyone else. Also, it’s not in MS’s best interest to break API’s as that will also mean changing software they’ve written to run on top of Windows as well. If anything, they’ve done a pretty incredible job of maintaining their API’s.
“Alright well I’m done talking about the first point, Europe can feel free to do whatever they want, but MS won’t go out without a fight”
Its not uncommon for those who committed illegal activity to do everything in their power to escape punishment.
“As for the second point, aren’t all software companies like that?”
You mean using illegal business activities to fuel their growth? Hmmm… I really can’t think of any other software company short of SCO that resembles that characteristic.
“Also, it’s not in MS’s best interest to break API’s as that will also mean changing software they’ve written to run on top of Windows as well.”
You’re right about that, but if its in their best interest to break their API’s to maintain their illegally acquired monopoly, then you can be they will do it. They’ve done far lesser things to do so.
“If anything, they’ve done a pretty incredible job of maintaining their API’s.”
They’ve only made major changes to their APIs when they had a significant-enough competitor gaining market share by building compatibility. If they haven’t broken their API much since then, its only because their anticompetitive business strategies have been so successful thus far.
“Whether I agree with what they’ve done or not, it’s their IP to do with what they please…
This is another excuse Microsoft used with the EU to avoid paying the fines. However, they should have got their lawyers to check on that one too. IP is invalid in the EU. We seen to that ages ago.
Stop being such a whiner. The EC has fined huge companies before, companies bigger than Microsoft. This is actually a sign that at least parts of it *isn’t* corrupt, as opposed to other systems where you “contribute” to the presidental candidates and then get away with just about anything.
No, it’s just a novel way of raising funds for inefficient French farmers.
Let me guess… you are a U.S. of A. citizen… liberty, democracy and all, and this is the kind of commentary you are able to produce?? Nice…
Edited 2005-12-24 11:31
The EC is only making threats. It is pretty unlikely it will actually come to fines.
Microsoft’s tactic in just about everything these days appears to be to fight every case right up to the wire with every weapon at their disposal. I would expect some fairly hostile exchanges over the next few weeks and maybe an appeal from MS to the US government to get more involved and then they’ll all agree something.
It’s worth bearing in mind that the EC is annoyed with MS for agreeing to document their protocols and then reneging on the deal by imposing restrictions designed to make it almost impossible for anyone actually to make use of the information. The authorities in the EC don’t like being two-fingered by a smart-ass any more than they do in the USA and I’m sure that a US authority would have reacted in the same way.
No, it actually will come to fines, if Microsoft want to continue trading in EU countries. If it does not pay, it will be excluded. Simple as that.
Although, it does sound of cutting off your nose to save your face
“No, it actually will come to fines, if Microsoft want to continue trading in EU countries. If it does not pay, it will be excluded. Simple as that.”
The U.S. can play the game… and make it stick.
It’s an ugly truth, but it will be done. Someone at the U.S. Dept. of Commerce calls someone at the EU who believes they are in control of things, and tells them to QUIT….. End of the story.
Ugly story, but it’s pretty close to the truth.
t’s an ugly truth, but it will be done. Someone at the U.S. Dept. of Commerce calls someone at the EU who believes they are in control of things, and tells them to QUIT….. End of the story.
Not exactly…..
The way we do itover here is to have a table of people working on doing one thing….
So, your guy at the US Dept. of Commerce calls about 24 people in the EU Dept. of Commerce and somehow convinces them all to take the US point of view, fair enough, that could be done…
However, it will take months of bickering and in-fighting amongst member states who will agree/disagree with the motion.
It is inefficient and slow, but it gets things ironed out properly, and we seem to be able to work it like that. LOL
Look what the EU did about software patents
“Look what the EU did about software patents
”
Let’s not look at the mess they have created with everything else….. This whole EU “thing” hasn’t been a great deal for a whole lot of people.
(I travel there weekly, clueless I ain’t)
The U.S. can play the game… and make it stick.
It’s an ugly truth, but it will be done. Someone at the U.S. Dept. of Commerce calls someone at the EU who believes they are in control of things, and tells them to QUIT….. End of the story.
—————————————————–
Sorry, but it doesn’t work like that anymore, have you not being keeping up with current events? Airbus, farming?
The US can ring, but its not going to do anything
The EU has a stronger economy then the USA now.
Now the EU wants to be boss, just wait until there is a strong european military, the plans for it were all over it in the EU constitution. So it’s no wonder they want to get rid of everything from the US. The war against iraq with france, germany and belgium being against the US was a first sign.
But I don’t believe all the EU wants linux instead of MS. They are trying to get a more cooperative MS. Something free like linux would maybe hurt their capitalistic system even more then a capitalistic monopoly. At least linux is too risky I think.
Let’s see what China does.
Interesting times..
The EU has a stronger economy then the USA now.
Wrong. Even if all the EU countries have a higher GDP than the US now, which is not the case according to CIA fact book, the EU has over a 150 million more people in it. The standard of living is much lower.
Now the EU wants to be boss, just wait until there is a strong european military, the plans for it were all over it in the EU constitution.
The EU is still a trading bloc at its heart. A EU strong EU military is a joke. Of course, the enemy state of France would probaby want one, but the UK and not even the Germans (with their conservative government now) would go along with that. Sorry, but the disgusting frogs won’t be the leader of some grand european coalition against the US. The UK will tell them to fsck off. But I know possibly you and the other statist slimy socialists would like that because of the EU corruption.
I’m completely against the state and I’m no socialist at all. You’re way of target.
The plans which are laid down by EU leaders are very f–ked up. They want strong military and extreme neoliberalism. Whether that comes or not, time will show. Whether the EU standard of living is lower or not it doesn’t matter. What matters is the power the leaders have behind them and how far they will abuse it to get a powerful position in the world.
There is nothing liberalistic about EU.
It’s static socialism of the worst kind. EU is basically the opposite of what a true libertarian is believing in.
But EU is f–ked up. So is USA. So is France, Germany, Denmark, Russia, Indonesia and Brazil.
If there are politicians and bureaucrats, it’s bound to be f–ked up.
[quote]If there are politicians and bureaucrats, it’s bound to be f–ked up.[/quote]
Damn right.
Whether we call the EU neoliberal or static socialism, I think we agree it sucks.
I’ve never been a fan of political party’s and the so called left and right terms. It all just ends up to be the same crap anyway: Elite profiting from the masses.
can we get this racist banned ?
If you are talking about canucklefrog, then yes, I think he is both racist and trolling, he should be put to a vote.
I for one vote to ban him
can we get this racist banned ?
Not surprisingly, nazi europeans hate free speech. You can’t ban anything bitch.
Don’t even mention the EU. They’re just as undemocratic. And I know, I live in Belgium.
It’s corporate lobbying which makes the rules.
It is Belgium which is undemocratic and corrupt, not the EU.
I know because I lived in Belgium and in many other European countries. I wouldn’t live in Belgium again if my life depended on it.
That’s a ridiculous request. The average person doesn’t want to buy a PC without an OS because (a) installing and configuring an OS requires more expertise than the average person possesses, and (b) there’s nothing particularly interesting about an OS to the average person. They want to buy a finished product, not a Franken-PC. The fact that many of you think that buying a PC without an OS is a mainstream scenario shows just how out of touch you are. Geeks who need a bare PC know where to find one. Try NewEgg or countless other hardware vendors. Your whole argument is a worthless canard.
Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows CE; PPC; 240×320; HP iPAQ h6300)
It’s no surprise that some of the cheering for the EU’s extortion is coming from Eurotrash socialists. Sure, why not? EU economies are almost entirely leveraged thru extortive taxation. Let’s prop up our inefficiency by taxing the successful American companies — or force them to surrender theit IP… /sarcasm
Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows CE; PPC; 240×320; HP iPAQ h6300)
As a european libertarian.. well I’m not happy about this fines, but IP does not exist. It’s a lie made by the elite who wants to stay the elite.
IP is a way to say: I own you and you are my fcuking slave, and I’ll beat you to death if you think something I haven’t allowed you to think.
I don’t cheer for what EU is doing with this fine, but it is related to giving people access to their own data, and as such I won’t oppose the step. Anyway I don’t believe EU will have the guts to actually stay put.
Hail Bush and Bill Gates, might they dominate the world, hail, hail
“…even Europe is not immune to USA companies pressure,…”
I’m sure they are not – allthough I’m not sure exactly what case(s) you’re refferring to.
But the EU is not without teeth either. Remember the case not long ago of GE wanting to purchase Honeywell? The US government approved the deal – despite anti-trust worries. But the EU did not. The Bush admin then tried with pressure on the EU. Didn’t help. The deal did not materialize.
So – if MS wants to continue doing business in the EU then they too will have to play by the rules there.
is not it’s efficient market capitalist ways but the US military which props up the almighty US Dollar. If anyone threatens that then a bogus war is waged against them i.e. Iraq.
Iraq was not about Weapons of MAs Destruction or bringing Democracy to an oppressed people, it was about Sadam turning to the Euro for Oil trading and not the US Dollar. The only thing keeping the US economy afloat is the use of te US Dollar on international markets. The less power it has the more the US econemy will be shown for the inept beast it really is. Enjoy the ride cause at the moment the way you guys have been going, its all down hill. Not to worry, it’s happened to many a great empire before even the English remember when the sun set on their Empire (thanks to the US). Have fun.
The EU can’t compete anymore. France and other western European countries are slipping into third world status. The socialism has made them lazy. China and India will demolish them, while the US will at least stand a chance.
The Western Europeans stood by as Milosevic committed genocide on Yugoslavia. There is nothing to admire about the EU.
Mean while the US government and Corporations treat their populace and workers with ut most contempt. There is a reason why the US is falling behind in manufacturing and that is because you get what you pay for in terms or labour wages. Keeping a third of your population under the poverty line does not a great nation make.
Nor does treating your populace as a terrorist suspect. Democracy is definately dead in the US but it is in many other countries but you know, keep up the FUD and treat your populace like crap and they will hopefully remain ignorant enough not to rise up and bitch slap you for doing it.
There seems to be little admirable about being human and look at racial segregation and rites abuses in the US of A. It happens everywhere and it nothing to be proud of full stop. Even us here in the ass pimple of the planet country called Australia have our share of racial/gang problems. Hopefully we will all grow up oneday and be nice to each other, I can dream can’t I.
Seems an appropriate sentiment given the time of year but hey sorry to offend anyone not christian or who is but a hypocrite.
This is silly. The US has never been a shining example of democracy; it’s always been run by the elite. The difference, if it is even true, is that it used to be run for the common man and elite; where as now it’s just sold off to the highest bidder. Of course, that’s the most extreme possible view of it.
The poverty line in the US is the “wealth line” for many countries. The sad thing is that 80% of those below the poverty line are happily keeping themselves there with stupid notions like a 40 hour work week for all and $0.20 gallons of gas which just haven’t existed since the 50’s, but they haven’t noticed yet.
Well, that is, the ones who aren’t just living off welfare or worse their girlfriend.
And what’s the proposed solution? Cater to them? I think we’ve bigger fish to fry than working conditions in the US. They’re not perfect, but the worst job I’ve ever worked never beat me, harrassed me, or even yelled at me (although my boss’ breath was worse than a thousand beatings).
Unfortunately ever western country seems to enjoy treating their populace as a terrorist. The problem there has nothing to do with “republicans” or “conservatives” or “fascists.” There’s not enough of them to elect themselves, trust me. However, there are enough idiots who vote safe instead of free to elect them. If you want to stop facism, stop gullible people from voting
.
We have a word for this sort of thinking here in the US: Conspiracy theory
. It’s not actually accurate, as this wouldn’t be a conspiracy at all. However, it falls along the same lines of unprobable reasoning for something when more propbable reasoning exists.
It’s highly unlikely that the US failed to go take Iraq for 50 years when it would have been EXTREMELY valuable simply as an oil source in an age when fewer would have objected to taking it for that (say, 1970, faked oil shortage). It’s also unlikely that we didn’t use the Kuwait invasion as an excuse to do just that.
The US Dollar is not valued because it is used in other countries. It is valued because the US economy is valued. If we weren’t doing major trade and did not have a strong industry we wouldn’t have a valued unit of currency which has absorbed an insane amount of abuse via inflation.
It is more likely that the concern over the value of the US dollar is hurting the US dollar more than the Euro is. Besides, the most valuable dollar hasn’t been the US for a long time, it was a far less used unit called the British Pound.
“It’s a few months into 2006 and it’s final Microsoft is closing it’s doors, with hugh fines upwards of 2.4 million dollars a day MS Spokeperson says that they can not keep up and are not willing to do what the EU want so they are closing operatings and telling everyone to use Linux….”
What! What?! O sorry I was daydreaming again.
Tell me then. Which country here in the EU isn’t undemocratic? (or in the world?)
I lived in Denmark (I’m danish and belgian) and Italy as well and don’t tell me anything about honest leaders and democracy there…
France, Germany, Holland, Spain, the UK, … where do you see real democracy? Ye we can vote once in so many years to try picking the least bad politician who seems to lie fewest… but apart from that there’s no way the leaders are going to listen.
By the way, people talking about the French being communists? State-communism is mostly out of the game in Europe (I don’t miss it!). Europe is actually becoming more and more fascist again. All the new laws being made which take away all our freedoms with the war on terrorism as excuse…
Microsoft is a sucky company but don’t come and say that the EU is so fantastic for fining Microsoft. Waw, how great. If the EU was really wanting to make a difference to the current situation they would actively promote an alternative like linux and let all schools use it.
It’s just like the dumb ban on smoking which would be for the public health. But they don’t even try to stop the pollution by cars, use of pesticides and dumping of toxics which have a far greater influence on our health.
They’ll never make a decision where they wouldn’t profit from. I can see huge fines from MS are nice for the EU top.
But what’s it going to change for the situation of MS being in monopoly? Not much. They should ban MS if they have balls.
Fascism and Communism is highly similar, both being socialists movements and ideologies.
There is no doubt the anti terror laws are going the wrong way. I’d wish Venstre and Konservative and DF had less power in Denmark. It’s not healthy for democracy.
However. This is not special for any country in the world.
The elite lost a lot of power with the fall of communism in Central end Eastern Europe.
Now the elite is trying to take that power back.
First, that’a a lot of dough. Don’t think about what MS already has, think about revenues, costs (especially marketing ones) and what is really the net profit MS gets. Think now about the dent this makes on the bottom line.
Regarding desktop PCs with Linux, please, you can buy them over the internet, quick delivery and all… if you must go to stores, then go, they’re there at supermarkets here in Brazil. But they are a lot more expensive here — about USA$ 350 here, USA$ 100 in the US — yes, I barely can be believe it, too, must be a screamer… 😉
But still cheaper than its Windows Starter Edition counterparts.
d~Lob
While this has been an interesting discussion, it’s also been more political than anything else….
MS isn’t going to be paying anyone folks….. It’s SO not happening…. Get over it.
Microsoft MUST obey the ruling, if it does not then, Microsoft MUST pay the fines. It SO is happening….
So you get over it.
If you were caught driving over the speed limit and were ordered by a court to pay $400 fine, would you do it ?
And if so why would you pay it, and not expect Microsoft to pay their fines to a court ?
You miss the point………
Were the U.S. to decide to cease business with the EU for a single week…… You don’t care to know the results.
Life isn’t as simple as you might believe.
Political moves can be very serious shit.
I don’t think he did miss the point. I think people in the US are continually missing the point.
If a country does not “play ball” with the US, the first thing it does is start trade sanctions against the country. If the EU did this with the US, the US economy would fall apart in weeks.
The US do not have a self-sustaining economy and needs the help of other nations to export to and import from.
Take this away, and there would be a disaster.
Still saying ain’t a nickel in fines are going to be collected….. Let’s give it a month to cook.
The EU is in 10x worst shape than the US. Low birth rates + massive taxation + bureacratic dictatorships = EU going down the tubes. And that’s bad for the world because we know when europeans get in a bind they turn to fascim, communism, and socialism.
Now, now, you hurt me.
Socialism has his good side. I pitty the americans who live on the ‘outside’ of ‘the american dream’. They have nothing to rely on – exept maybe on the goodwill of some people.
But then agian, that’s completely their own fault. You shoud all be the best!
Now here’s some logic: that isn’t possible.
So Microsoft has to obey the ruling from a bunch of fascist thugs that are trying to extort them? I’m sure the Department of Commerce will have something to say about that. Let the trade war being. We know the EU will collapse soon enough because of their fascist socialist policies.
Or I guess the fascist-statist EU can’t stand when a successful capitalist is among them. What a sick bunch of depraved losers. The Europeans cause two world wars, brought on communism and fascism in just the last century and now, once again, they punish the successful and believe that the european people are too stupid to make a choice.
…that most of the europeans around here are for hefty fines. Mix in some anti-capitalism, with anti-americanism, with some weak-minded indoctrination of fascist socialism and you get drones that need the government to wipe their ass when they take a shit.
Microsoft continues to not listen, the only way you get them to listen with this daily fines and maybe with threat of exclusion from market.
Afterall company will listen when it affects their money otherwise they do not care.
Folks seem to be getting this a little out of proporption. It’s just a spat between a regulator and a participant in the market, both of whom have been upping the ante in a game of chicken. Happens all the time. The two sides are bound to settle some time soon. It’s not in Microsoft’s interest to lose a lot of money or lose some of the European market, and it’s not in the EU’s interest to make the world’s most popular operating system a pain to run and obtain for EU citizens.
This has nothing to do with country A or system of government A being better than B, etc. etc. Neither is exactly ideal, but to paraphrase a famous man, all the alternatives are a lot worse. Try holding this debate in Tehran. All we are seeing is the slow crumbling of Microsoft’s unprecedented monopoly. It was bound to happen sooner or later. Microsoft are too smart to exhaust themselves by going against the flow all the time.
Politically, Europe is in the middle of a large and divisive debate about the economic future of the continent. The UK and the Eastern European countries favour a very market oriented approach as the only way to bring back economic growth (currently tiny) while a bloc led by France believe in a larger state. It is therefore wrong to generalise about European socialism.
This action is heavily driven by the ‘market’ side of the trading bloc. They realise that all businesses in Europe (and elsewhere) are paying excessive costs to feed Microsoft’s 60% profit margins. These tollgate charges on all businesses reduce the available capital to invest in the R&D required to improve productivity. Improving productivity is the only way for the market to deliver sustained economic growth, which benefits everyone, the US included.
In fact, allowing competition in the IT market, and therefore reducing Microsoft’s tollgate charges in Europe also benefits the US economy, as it releases MORE money for European businesses to spend on other American goods, and by improving growth, increases the money that European consumers spend on US goods.
Remember, that growth is not a zero-sum game.
looking at people like canucklefrog? He has the most immature entries I ever read here. The overall quality of osnews is really going down thx to such characters…
Some people here really need to read some books about basic concepts and facts in history, economics, another social sciendes.. this seem to be the case of CanuckleFrog..
You guy, really talk like a fascist , and an ignorant as****e. You better read a couple of books, grow-up and then try to do or tell anything positive .. if you can…
It would bee too long to try to explain, comment or correct some of the views formelly exposed her, so, I
simply will try to clarify facts wit 3 or 4 basic ideas:
– 1 – Democracy is a social concept very difficult to achieve. It mostly a state of mind of a whole society,
or the big part of a society.
– 2 -The US is not a Democracy, and barely has ever been.. The nearest proximity to that would be, probably, the society and political system of the original States of the US; 2, 3 or 4 centuries ago.. I recommend a book called ‘Democracy in America’ by Alexis de Tocqueville, to enlight about that.
– 3 – Neither are the Europenn countries true democracies. But in Europe, there are more than 50 independent states or Nations, with huge political, Social, and economic differences. Talking about Europe as a whole unique entity is ridiculous, and mixing the European Union and Europe is ridiculous too!!!
And people in the US, with their educational system (based in huge knowledge in just one thing, and total ignorance on all the rest), their general culture ignorance, bias, xenophoby and racism.. are not normally aware of this facts. Less aware are, even about facts related to other countries or cultures not belonging to the westrn world.
– 4 – The European countries and the USA have common basic cultural roots in many aspects an need each other in economic terms
Also, the European countries and other american countries outside the USA have common basic cultural roots in many aspects an need each other in economic terms. This is moree and more obvious and present because of the fact of the increasing ‘globalisation’
– 5 – ‘Monopolies’ in economics, are as desirable as ‘dictatorships’ in politics. So, those who defend monopolies, should knonw themselves where they are situated.
It happens tha the US have historically tried and succesfully achieved the creation of monopolistic
companies in several key economic sectors. This is the case in IT right now, with several examples that we
all know… Of course other contries have tried too, but the US are the king of monopolistic economy and
lack of respect for true democracy right now. All that is NO good , neither for the US citizens-consumers,
nor for the rest of the countries and the world economy…
To simplify , the US growth and economy has lived and learned to live historically out of the work of other
countries and the inmigrants in the US.
– 6 – Many countries in Europe and other places have had similar policies historically, and some have tried
new economic and social models, (with less than stisfying results, as the 20th century histry shows us!), but worldwide only the US seems still specially attached to a model of restrictions, abuses, and lack of cooperation with other countires, cultures etc. And this in many sectors: IT, Internet & Computers; but also in Global environment, economics, Politics …
– 7 – The European Union is not a State, neither has a constitution, as many people belive and someone pointed out before… Its only a complex and unfinished model of cooperation and possible union between many different countries that try a new and diferent approaches in political and economical relations, than the old models that Big monopolies and Empires still defend ;-). It goes in their interest too… since together this countries can counterweight the monopolistic & imperialistic behaviours. Nevertheless, the countries of the EU are far from not applying themselves that kind of behaviours to others, and historically have done so. The current union just helps them to act in some aspects with one voice and more weight than they would have as a bunch of smaller contries against some big economic and militar empires.
Even with all that the EU has been very soft with MS, and has been waitng for one year to accomplish with
the resolutions taken, with scarce results…
MS kows it is a big monopoly and knows its backed by the US administration, whatever it is – since is a
pillar for the technological, economic and millitary sectors of the USand also of the domination of the
world by the US.
So , as I said before the EU administration punnish their illegal behaviour, but they do it slowly and in a
soft way (still?)
I do not see any economic, even less military threat to the monopolistic economic, and imperialistic behaviour of the US woldwide. Specially any threat from the EU countries. Above all because a big bunch of the european countries and societies have the same mentality of superiority, xenophoby, racism, and economic selfness than the US. If anyone in the US is looking for threats to their abusive, bulling,
imperialistic, and monopolistic behaviour, you should look towards asia, guys…. Some big countries there
(as in othr parts in the world) have still debts to arrange with you… but it will not be in the next 20
years… thats pretty sure to me …
So, in the meantime, enjoy life, make love (for real… not wan***g in front of the PC, and of course not for all the american puritan minds ;-)), get fat drinking coke and eating shit food, keep working hard and making
big progress in IT (you do that very well), and keep on fragging hard in the video games or th internet.
In 20 years if anything big comes I still could be on your side, since I am a westener, but, who knows…. Or maybe your policies will not let the world survive still 20 years more …LOL!!!
Angel–Fr@gzill@
If I ran MS I’d cut my losses and run. To hell with the EU, as it is beginning to look like in the long run they are going to keep niggling away at them one lawsuit after another. Pretty soon the EU will rank right up there with SCO dumping millions into one frivilous lawsuit after another.
MS won’t share their closed source commercial program? Oh NO! What a concept… What is next, going to sue them for charging money for their product?
First the stupid “Pull media player out” (when the OBVIOUS solution was to make them bundle a few competitors along with it… although anyone who thinks realplayer is a GOOD program should be taken out and shot.) now this nonsense. I say pull all MS products off the shelf and pay your business partners (like Intel and AMD) to do the same and accellerate the slide into third world status they already have well under way.
Oh, and I voted up a few of the responses people were voting down here. How dare somebody call a group of people using thuggish tactics a thug. Most all of these post with negative numbers here have no offensive language, are most certainly NOT off topic, and I don’t see any spam or advertising. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over? GOD FORBID anyone stand up to defend the ‘evil empire’ against the rabid anti MS fanboys.
HHHMM LOL… i don’t get u…
It seems to me that you are just on your side!
Only i wish to enlight you about some concepts that you semm not to have vey clear in your mind…
THe EU does not sue MS. They are the administratation, a government body, not a company. they impose fines,for not respecting the law.. and with MS they are going soft (read my big article before…)
If MS does not agree with the fine they can go to the courts, ( they will..) but thats another level of the stoy …
Nobody ask them to become open Source… 😮
they simply have to abid by the rules in economic law, what they don’t… and not avoid compettion tru monopolistic measures , what is what they have been doing for years , and still do.
Seems that economics is not your speciality, if not you would understand very easily why they misbehave and apply illegal measures…
But other people are not economist, possibly and understand that …
Finally there is a bunch of multimedia players out there some commercial and closed source that are better than WMPlayer, and much lighter and quicker… Real Player is not my favorite neither !!
, And some FLOOS and free ass in beer that ar better than WMPlayer. And best of all the do not interfere with your activities and do not spy you !!!.. Try some of them.. they exit in all platfoms and OS, Linux, Windows, DSD, Mac OS …
Regards,
Angel–Fr@gzill@
I’ll concede it’s not sueing, but it may as well be. They are passing and enforcing goofy laws in an attempt to bully and harass a business on stuff that frankly, is getting more and more ridiculous.
Of course I am assuming that english is not your primary language, as your posts are incoherent lacking complete sentences, proper spelling, or any of the dozen other things I expect from people who should be taken seriously… I was having a great deal of difficulty finding any coherent thoughts in the post you suggest I back-read… But if you like, let’s dissect your items.
#1 and #2 – redundant. Yes, America is not a true democracy, and we have Ben Franklin to thank for that. “No democracy can survive once the masses find out they can vote themselves out of the public largesse.” It is a Democratic Republic in which the unwashed masses vote for public representatives. If nothing else a true democracy would be about as completely impractical as Communism or Anarchy, and much like those viewpoints is naive about the scale of society and human nature. Of course that you reference that nutjob commie deTorqueville doesn’t exactly lend creedence to your arguing something that isn’t even relevant to the discussion.
#3 – Well DUH. Anyone who needs that explained to them has been living under a rock the past hundred years.
#4 – They need the US a lot more than the US needs them. I mean seriously, what does the US import from Europe they couldn’t get from say… South America or Japan. It’s not like Europe HAS any natural resources left to exploit, which basically means labor and manufacturing which are cheaper elsewhere.
#5 – Monopolies CAN be the result of democratic freedoms; this is something some people don’t grasp. A lot of times to BECOME the monopoly you have to lead the “Great unwashed masses” down the path of ignorance of their own free will. People are sheep, or lemmings if you prefer. The “mob mentality” is majority rule in action. Calling monopolies undemocratic shows a lack of understanding on simple human behavior.
#6 – Just sounds like sour grapes to me. Garners a few points with the excellent job of using a bunch of words to denegrate a nation without actually saying anything.
#7 – Technically the EU is a state. One does not need a constitution to make it a state. Do they have a legislature that creates laws that govern the people who live within it’s member states? Does it have a heirarchical order? If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it most certainly is not a cat.
Not entirely certain what you mean by “economic selfness” but the rest of your little post reeks more of someone who has never lived under REAL imperialism. You think the US is xenophobic, go to japan and watch what happens to half-breed children or go watch the unwashed effite parisians spit on *** children in the street.
Oh yes, the US is SOOO racist and xenophobic compared to the rest of the world. RIGHT.
Of course, your original posts and this reply should be modded right off the site for being OT.
Guy you are deathshadowed minded ..lol
Your paranoia, indoctrination and fascist way of thinking do not let you distinguish between facts and ideas…
IN my former posts I exposed FACTS. You try to correct me with ideas, ideals (Nazi ones), and sofisms (and its so clear that u havez no idea of economics, law, history etc … it just makes laugh..)
Funny watching some UltraNationlistic, indoctrinated NorthAmericans mistaken an administrative-legal action against a Monopoly, with an attack against the USA.. LOL
they are really NAZI Paranoids… and some of them posting here !!! LOL
It was not the EU who started the actions against illegals tactics taken by MS… The USA Administration and also many companies in the USA and private costumers have taken actions against MS before any action were taken in Europe !!!
And let me state this clearly: MS hast lost in the courts in the US alrady (and in other countries), against Administrations & Private corporations…
They have managed up to the moment to overcome the situation and court decissions with cash…
Maybe CASH will not be enogh this time … THEY (MS) have to abid by the rules and compete fairly against other companies, whether they are europeans, northamericnas or from Nepal…. As simple as that!!!
Read my former posts to clarify a bit your ideas!!!
I will not anwser again your posts or any post coming from any other NAZI, indoctrinated PseudoPatriotic arrogant american. It is simply NOT WORTHY!!! Losing
time with NaziAmericans its just a waste of tme. Above all because there are plenty of people from the USA with whom you can keep a sane dialog, and that have open minds and something interesting to say !!!
Angel–Fr@gzill@
I would love to see MS just dump the EU market. Be like “Fine you don’t like us then we will leave” and then see how well that works out. Just stop surpporting Europe, stop selling their software in Europe and be done with it. So bascially I agree with Deathshadow.
Fine Fine .. so it be..
There are other office suites, apart from MS, in the commercial field: Lotus Office, CorelOffice, StarOffice and others in the commercial field.
There are also other Office suites in the Open Source, free field: OpenOffice, Koffice, GnomeOffice and others. Without the monopoly of MS these suites would take more share of the market, That would be fantastic.
On the other hand prepare yourself, pack the suitcases to go to work to Mexico as illegal inmigrant, because if MS cease their business in Europe , korea.. places where they have been fined for their illegal commercial attitudes, the company would collapse in a few weeks. LOL !!!
and you would have to follow papa and all the familly to Mexico to work in the fields …
I hope you are a geek, a gamer, or something else, not a programmer. Because if you are, with such a privileged mind, i would not want to be the victim of your code…, except if you work for MS, what would not be strange… Hmmm, now i start to understand why so many bugs … 😉
Angel–Fr@gzill@
“I would love to see MS just dump the EU market.”
I’m sure it’s being considered……
I’m not sure anyone in charge of the EU’s position fully understands the economic ramifications of their action.
The EU is foolishly making the assumption MS will comply with their order… MS might well call their bluff. (then wtf they gonna do?)
This issue is far from black and white, and someone is going to put an end to it. Just a matter of who at this point.
“I would love to see MS just dump the EU market.”
So would I, unfortunately MS is not that stupid… pity
You are absolutly right guy!!!
Its funny watching some UltraNationlistic, indoctrinated NorthAmericans mistaken an administrative-legal action against a Monopoly, with an attack against the USA.. LOL
they are really NAZI Paranoids… and some of them posting here !!! LOL
MS Dumping the European Marke!!! ???… What a naif!!!
Read my former posts please:
“There are other office suites, apart from MS, in the commercial field: Lotus Office, CorelOffice, StarOffice and others in the commercial field.
There are also other Office suites in the Open Source, free field: OpenOffice, Koffice, GnomeOffice and others. Without the monopoly of MS these suites would take more share of the market, That would be fantastic.
On the other hand prepare yourself, pack the suitcases to go to work to Mexico as illegal inmigrant, because if MS cease their business in Europe , korea.. places where they have been fined for their illegal commercial attitudes, the company would collapse in a few weeks. LOL !!!
and you would have to follow papa and all the familly to Mexico to work in the fields …
I hope you are a geek, a gamer, or something else, not a programmer. Because if you are, with such a privileged mind, i would not want to be the victim of your code…, except if you work for MS, what would not be strange… Hmmm, now i start to understand why so many bugs … 😉 ”
Angel–Fr@gzill@
To bad the EU seems to be doing so in a somewhat improper fashion. But hey, it is their laws. If I could make laws there would be a lot of interesting circumstances too. That is how a kid with a new toy tends to behave. The linear course of events is puzzling from any but the most vicious of perspectives. It is like a Put-put game over there right now in the perceived European geographic area.
” Its only a complex and unfinished model of cooperation and possible union between many different countries…”
So I guess PEU (Possible European Union) would be the true acronym based on this definition. One aspect of globalization that I have always found interesting is the loss of identity. In each company you are required to be symphathetic to their mode of operation. So, for each different entity that you have to please you have to operate as an independent yet dependent whole.
Someone mentioned that they have not seen a military, economic, etc. et al, threat to the United States Monopolistic status, partially due to the same arrogance of many European bodies. That it will come from the east is certain, as grudges are truly grudged out till the end by most peoples, regardless of origin or destiny. The monopolistic properties of the United States have to be maintained to some extent, otherwise the “Super Power” title will slowly come into question as other countries begin to make “economic” bids on the title using weaponry instead of good products. This is always the nature of such disputes though.
Interoperability with Windows Servers? Isn’t there this nice OSS software called SAMBA that will do just that? There is nothing illegal about reverse-engineering protocols and formats for compatibility (i.e. as MSFT did for WordPerfect). And if you want to write a network file system or other networking software for windows, nothing stops you from using the documented DDK to write the drivers. Oh, is it hard? Well, yes, Microsoft had to put in the hard work to write their file system redirectors and login services too, but they’ve always made Windows extensible.
Another similar complaint is that Office has some secret hooks into the operating system which is how it manages to have certain features. Really, it’s just that the Office team is really huge and is willing to rewrite a large amount of functionality that’s similar to the Core OS to achieve their goals (like, for instance, their own dialog manager and control system which is entirely owner-drawn).
Really, there’s nothing that stops a company from reverse-engineering microsofts protocols for compatibilty, except maybe the complexity of the said protocols. There’s also nothing that prevents people from making their own server software and installing client-side facilities for accessing it (like Novell’s netware which has integrated Windows logins). It’s hard work, but Microsoft had to do this work itself.
Reverse engineering takes quite a long time. Reverse engineer exchange for us all, please
.
The EU is chock full of quasi-communist states like France that just can’t compete anymore because of their socialist/statist economic policies. The europeans are looking at a world of hurt when it comes to competing with the Indians and Chinese. Don’t forget that we had two world wars, fascism and communism coming from the europeans in the past century. The european standard of living is lower than it is in the US or Canada (just look at the numbers). Europe is full of old school statist-socialists who want to bring everybody down with them. The US has nothing to learn from the EU. A country like France is pretty much a neutral state to the US and not an ally anymore. There’s nothing democratic or free about statist socialism.
Guy you are pitifull ..lol
Poor “CanuckleFrog”, you really are a complexed guy !!! LOL
The most intresting thing you have done in your life is watching on and on, all the ‘Rocky’ films and all the ‘Arnold’ fims after those of ‘Rocky’… LOL
Your paranoia, indoctrination and fascist way of thinking do not let you distinguish between facts and ideas…
Your statements, ideas, ideals (Nazi ones), and sofisms (and its so clear that u havez no idea of politics,economics, law, history etc … it just makes laugh..)
Funny watching some UltraNationlistic, indoctrinated NorthAmericans mistaken an administrative-legal action against a Monopoly, with an attack against the USA.. LOL
they are really NAZI Paranoids… and some of them posting here !!! LOL
It was not the EU who started the actions against illegals tactics taken by MS… The USA Administration and also many companies in the USA and private costumers have taken actions against MS before any action were taken in Europe !!!
And let me state this clearly: MS hast lost in the courts in the US alrady (and in other countries), against Administrations & Private corporations…
They have managed up to the moment to overcome the situation and court decissions with cash…
Maybe CASH will not be enogh this time … THEY (MS) have to abid by the rules and compete fairly against other companies, whether they are europeans, northamericnas or from Nepal…. As simple as that!!!
Read all my former posts to clarify a bit your ideas, You need it specially, because you are really ignorant.
And i repeat again that Europe and the EU are not the same thiong. There are more than 50 countries in Europe.. and you “CanuckleFrog” are the NAZI. Your post and manners are really unbereable. Please enlight a bit your ignorance and dont talk about Europe as if it was just France. (they would like it !!! lol).
And, anyway, your post aginst France and Europe prove that you are a real ignorant, that know nothing about France… ( and i’m not French, neither have special admiration towards some of their attitudes…, as I do not have special admiration towards some of the Americans -from USA- attitudes, like yours …!!!)
!!!
I will not anwser again your posts or any post coming from any other NAZI, indoctrinated PseudoPatriotic arrogant american. It is simply NOT WORTHY!!! Losing
time with NaziAmericans its just a waste of tme. Above all because there are plenty of people from the USA with whom you can keep a sane dialog, and that have open minds and something interesting to say !!!
Angel–Fr@gzill@
Wait… it censors ***? Good god I was raised Kabbalist and you cannot even post the common word for judaism? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
Fascism and Communism is highly similar, both being socialists movements and ideologies.
This is really off-topic, but actually you’re quite wrong. Fascism is not a socialist movement, in fact it is anti-Socialist. This is why socialists were sent to death camps in Germany and assassinated by Mussolini’s thugs.
I think what you mean to say is that fascist regimes and “historical” communist regimes (i.e. those who called themselves Communist, like Russia and China, even if they clearly didn’t fit the definition of Communism as established by Marx) all had authoritarian forms of government. That is indeed true, but this has nothing to do with Socialism.
The fact is that you can have libertarian socialism (which many would associate with Trotskyism, though in fact it’d be closer to anarcho-syndicalism) just like you can have libertarian capitalism. Similarly, you can have authoritarian socialism and authoritarian capitalism (such as Nazi Germany, where private enterprises flourished).
We both agree that an authoritarian government is bad, however we disagree on rules and restrictions on private entities (i.e. corporations). That is why you’d describe yourself as a right-wing libertarian, while I see myself as a left-wing libertarian. I believe the political spectrum is in fact more nuanced than you suggest.
The fact is that you can have libertarian socialism (which many would associate with Trotskyism, though in fact it’d be closer to anarcho-syndicalism) just like you can have libertarian capitalism.
Sorry to carry on off-topic. I think that Trotsky’s suppression of the Kronstadt uprising excludes him from being a libertarian socialist. The only followers of Trotsky that can be regarded as libertarian-socialists are those that decisively broke with him such as the Johnson-Forrest tendency in the States but I guess we are saying the same thing. It is good to see a fellow left-wing libertarian posting
MS counsel says “The Commission confuses disclosure of the source code with disclosure of the internals and insists that it will fine the company if it fails to address this,” in the Reuters article.
No the MS counsel is deliberately confusing the specification of communication protocols with “source code” and “the disclosure of internals”.
Typical MS bullshit.
Yes, I agree with you. I don’t think Trotsky’s political philosophy can be reconciled with his actions. I was merely pointing out that he is often depicted as less authoritarian than other soviet figures of the time, however he can’t really be said to be a libertarian.
Cheers to you in this holiday season! 🙂
#4 – They need the US a lot more than the US needs them. I mean seriously, what does the US import from Europe they couldn’t get from say… South America or Japan. It’s not like Europe HAS any natural resources left to exploit, which basically means labor and manufacturing which are cheaper elsewhere.
—————————————————
Why is it whenever you get these types are arguments, you get statements like the one above you get people making comments that actually have little basis in fact and just something they pulled out of there arse, its up there with my dad is bigger then your dad
Act your bloody age, nobody knows what really would happen if we had such a big trade war, and no we don’t need the US a lot more then US needs us, we both need each other as much as each other
The best you can come up with in responding to differing viewpoints is to label your own speculation and heavily media influenced leftist nonsense as fact, then run around calling everyone nazis… Much less that you LOL yourself so often you’d think we were dealing with a AOLuser.
Half crazed rants about everyone being nazi’s with a use of the language a second year japanese finishing school student would scoff at as ignorant, and people like this wonder why nobody takes their ranting seriously.
Oh, and calling non-christian of the judaic persuasion that this site won’t even let me use the word for a nazi, that’s just special…
In the same way some olympics are special.