“The biggest barrier to Linux business desktop adoption is Linux itself, as too many distributions make it harder for developers to port to or create applications for Linux, according to John Cherry, initiative manager for Desktop Linux at Open Source Development Labs. OSDL is a nonprofit corporation that supports Linux developers and users. There’s a good opportunity today for Linux desktops to attract knowledge workers, but more applications are needed, said Cherry.”
I’ve been saying this for years, and every single time I get shot down by the zealots who tell me “OMG YUO’RE FUDDING THERE ARE LOTS OF BINARY ONLY APPZ OUT THERE” — as if that were pertinent.
Now we’ve got an OSDL guy saying the same thing. How are the zealots going to spin this one?
Firstly, you might not want to start out a thread with such a confrontational and insulting tone. I am pretty sure that you would consider that rude if done in person. Same thing in a forum.
As for your point, buried inbetween your “zealot” references, I am not certain that the issue is the number of distros. If you have an app, someone each distro’s community will likely take it up and package it to place in the repos.
As for proprietary apps, which cannot really be “released” by the owning companies in quite the same open way, it mustn’t really be that tough. As an example, UT2k4 comes with a Linux installer on the same CDs as the Windows installer is on, right in the box you buy off the shelf. It works on Mandrake, Ubuntu, Fedora, SUSE, Debian, etc. without changes or customizations.
Now, I am not an expert, nor do I claim to be, but it is a closed-source binary app, and it seems pretty portable between distros.
EDIT: Oh, I see your Bio in your profile now, “Linux is f***ing garbage.“. I guess I used more effort to reply than I needed to.
Edited 2006-04-05 19:01
Actually ‘Tom K’ was and is always biased against linux.(I believe he had a different nickname before)
So take his posts with a grain of salt.
Actually all the proprietary applications are binary only.
But the article suggest it’s hard to spread these binary only apps across the numerous distributions.
And OSDL solution being the Portland project.
I’m hoping companies will use autopackage or installers(like bitrock for example) which are distro inspecific
That unmistakable trolling style of Mr. Poo is indeed hard to miss.
Sounds like “Linux Is Poo” under different nick.
Could explain why Tom K. is from the same country (if Canada is a country
There was a time when Linux was playing catch up. But now Linux kernel + glibc is very mature. At least some distributions can try for 3 to 4 year release cycle.
By this, I dont mean just leaving an ftp server on
for 4 years. We need commitment that security patches
will be applied, and to the extent possible new hardware would be supported in a manner that requires
only upward compatible changes. For example, writing
a driver for a new ethernet card is unlikely to affect
anything else. But jumping from static /dev to devfs to udev is a big change.
Of course, we dont want a system that is ossified. But, at the current pace, the only way Linux can be supported is through open source apps. If you don’t want to release your source code, it is very dizzying
for software companies to keep up with Linux.
You are joking right? The only way tou can call his post an insult is if you consider yourself one of the trolls.
He only said the truth.
Ever heared the famous “WHY REINVENT THE WHEEL?” It’s the same zealots over and over.
The reason for their trolling? They dont want to learn again. simple as that. Everybody must adapt to their illuminati tastes.
Oh… why bother…
Tom K. is probably the same as “Linux Is Poo”.
I’ve seen Tom K. spread a lot of garbage about many systems incl. non-linux systems.
The one and only thing I haven’t seen is constructive posts from him.
There are many distro independent binary releases for linux, and there are several ways to create such. It’s just not that common, but it could be and it should be.
Funny though, that a PC-BSD fanboy is at the attack. I know PCBSD-users are generally more grown-up than you seem to be. And I like the package management in PC-BSD. So wonderfully easy.
The PC-BSD fanboy apologies if it seemed to be attacking anyone.
I was actually defending Tom K.’s view. because i know he said the truth.
If you look at what i wrote from a grown up point of view (not trolling…) you will surely understand.
I like PC-BSD package management too
and you are right about the forums. People have been very polite since the begining. If you care to visit the forum, please read some of my posts. I do behave as a grown up.
Guess is get a bit annoyed by the so called “trolls”, no matter what they troll for.
Cheers
Renato Flórido
*update*
Please define what a fanboy is and tell me why have you connected the fact that my username is pcbsdusr to being a PC-BSD fanboy. Because what i do, where i place my work/free time does not have anything to do with this post.
Was i ever seen saying Writing) PC-BSD is the best or that others are inferior?
At least give an example when posting about someone’s manners please.
Edited 2006-04-06 01:14
This OSDL guy has a head on his shoulders and obviously groks the issues.
The biggest reason why desktop Linux failed to grow is because of all of these compatibility and fracturization issues.
There’s the linux kernel and then there’s a whole bunch of bits that are here and there, but not everywhere.
He’s pretty realistic about the whole situation. In fact, since desktop linux has such an uphill battle ahead of it, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone took the kernel and put a cohesive, proprietary userspace on top of it that could actually compete with the likes of Apple and Microsoft.
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone took the kernel and put a cohesive, proprietary userspace on top of it that could actually compete with the likes of Apple and Microsoft.
Or if an OSS-friendly millionaire decided to take an already well-developed open source desktop and make it as easy-to-use and as beginner-friendly as possible, with the aim of creating THE definitive Linux distribution. Perhaps also giving out free CDs to encourage take-up.
Hmmm….
Unfortunately, millionaires don’t tend to know what “easy-of-use/beginner-friendliness” is, nor why it’s a terrible design goal. From what I’ve seen, said millionaire has acheived the opposite effect while simultaneously convincing his audience otherwise.
Or if an OSS-friendly millionaire decided to take an already well-developed open source desktop and make it as easy-to-use and as beginner-friendly as possible, with the aim of creating THE definitive Linux distribution. Perhaps also giving out free CDs to encourage take-up.
Hmmm….
Even if Shuttleworth’s goal was to drive RedHat and Novell away from the desktop by just giving away the CDs for long enough, then he is faced with a scenario of biting the hand that feeds him and is then forced into hiring his own desktop developers. And even in that scenario where does KDE fit in? Does it just die out into hobbyist land?
There’s a whole bunch of other factors that you haven’t even began to contemplate yet that still hinder desktop linux adoption. The real problem is that so much of the damage has already been done and is hard to reverse – especially the social issues.
And of course the situation only gets worse with more choice from Apple.
And even in that scenario where does KDE fit in?
Kubuntu?
Sad though that there are people here who marginalise those of us who use Windows, and claim, when an application title isn’t available for Linux, its apparently an ‘attitude problem’ with the end user rather than a deficiency with Linux.
Linux is great on the server, no questions asked, but for the desktop; if Linux advocates out there would like their operating system of choice being adopted by mainstream, maybe it would be wise to shut ones mouth and listen to the consumer, and find out what he or she would like to do with their computer.
I can assure you, that the end consumer isn’t going to be satisified running 0.10 version applications that are in pre-beta state, and are perpetual promise mode of ‘next release we’ll have….”; and each time, failing to deliver.
End users like the idea of using, for example, Photoshop Elements, they like the idea of being able to go down the road and purchase software off the shelf, and know that they have a physical copy of the media, the product is actually supported rather than it being abandonware as the case of, for example, Inkscape which has died a slow and painful death (and being a person with high hopes that it would take off, it has been a great disappointment) – there are a constant reliable cycle of updates that are easy to use and the documentation is actually readable to a mear mortel.
The problem is, there are people like me out there who know what needs to be done, but instead are yelled and screamed by at my the unwashed masses, with people convinced that we’re ‘anti-Linux’ or ‘anti-Opensource’ or ‘anti-Stallman’ as I was labelled by one individual here; how about instead of abuse, you sit down, shut up, and listen; my uncle put it best when he said, “if you spend more time ranting, and less time listening, you might miss out on some valuable information”; may I suggest that some of our resideny Linux advocates take that onboard.
Edited 2006-04-06 03:41
Though obviously you have a point, do realize that your tone is quite insulting to the reasonable Linux fans/advocates (which I still think is the majority).
1) I’d like to know who took a point off for my post; the points system isn’t used to mark down posts you disagree or add points to those who you agree with.
The idea of the point system is this; filter out the trolls so that you end up with quality posts (which, IMHO, mine was), which actually contributes to the debate rather than being a mindless rant of no substance.
2) Interesting, I’ve had nothing but abuse hurled at me since the day I started posting here, by people who think that because they’ve ‘found linux’, like the person who just ‘found god’, and anyone who disagrees with them should fear the rath of the zealot Linux advocate.
I’m sorry, but on this site, the Linux nuts seem to far exceed those who are reasonable; dare explain why Linux isn’t ready for the desktop, and brace for the frothing mouths, screaming voices and abuse being hurled.
Idiots who come out of the wood work and demand that everyone should move to Linux because it works for them – neglecting the fact that they now work less productively simply to prove live out their zelotry rather than being pragmatic and admiting when something doesn’t work.
but on this site, the Linux nuts seem to far exceed those who are reasonable
This unfortunately seems to be the case – but posts with a tone like yours, in my opinion, only make things worse: they drive away the reasonable folks (nobody likes to be insulted), without provoking a reasonable well-balanced response (because it’s hard to take a rant like that seriously, and also because it gives the impression that the author (you) won’t listen anyway). Indeed, like that in the end you are left with only the responses of the zealots…
All this has nothing much to do with the contents of your post – as I said, I mostly agree.
I’m willing to listen when people actually come forward with some factually based information rather than it being a scenario of giving linux to some unknown individual and how he has not only embraced Linux, but had his dog tintin come back to life, the laundry done each morning, and the cat house trained perfectly.
When I mention the lack of software – that is a fact, not an opinion; there is no commercial software for Linux; thats a fact! how the hell someone can argue with that, god only knows, but it seems that Linux advocates like the idea of some how turning any fact someone pushes out as some sort of example of how the original author is considered a loser.
Unstable driver API; apparently thats everyone elses fault because the linux kernel doesn’t have a stable driver API; mention that little fact, and you’ll get a double helping of abuse.
I don’t rant, I push an opinion out there; and if people wish to prove them wrong, they can give a point by point rebuttle of what I post rather than the grand unified abuse which Soulbender threw at me; completely avoiding addressing any of the issues in favour of a smear campaign based on FUD and smart ass replies – sorry, to push that up to a 2, the person who did so needs their brain exaimed very closely for that brain wasting disease up in Northern Western Australia which is carried by Mozzies.
I’m willing to listen when people actually come forward with some factually based information rather than it being a scenario of giving linux to some unknown individual and how he has not only embraced Linux, but had his dog tintin come back to life, the laundry done each morning, and the cat house trained perfectly.
Unfortunately, you have distro fanboys and then you have distro developers and various other developers who have no interest in seeing the forest through the trees. It just doesn’t matter.
And as you stated, without a stable kernel ABI, it doesn’t matter what the desktop guys do, it’s a complete lost cause.
“I can assure you, that the end consumer isn’t going to be satisified running 0.10 version applications that are in pre-beta state, and are perpetual promise mode of ‘next release we’ll have….”; and each time, failing to deliver.”
Oh, you mean exactly like 95% of all Windows software? Well, like 95% of *all* software really.
“the product is actually supported rather than it being abandonware as the case of”
The fact that you have paid for something is no guarantee it wont get abandoned and unsupported.
Usually you only get X months, maybe a year, of free support, support that more often than not turns out to be useless.
“There are a constant reliable cycle of updates that are easy to use”
If the products already delivers why do you need to update? Sounds like they’re in a perpetual beta-state.
“and the documentation is actually readable to a mear mortel.”
I find, for example, the KDE docs to be much better than the docs for most Windows software i’ve ever used.
“if you spend more time ranting, and less time listening, you might miss out on some valuable information”; may I suggest that some of our resideny Linux advocates take that onboard.”
Nice ending to your, uh, rant…
Which you, like all linux zealots fail to actually address the original post.
I spent time putting together atleast, what I consider, a decent post, how about sitting there, shutting your trap and putting the brain into gear and thinking about what I wrote.
You want to live in your opiate haze of blind faith that things will be ok in the future, thats your choice, but it doesn’t change the simple fact that Linux lacks hardware support, commercial software, standardisation between distributions, lack of stability within the kernel as to allow hardware vendors to provide drivers.
But hey, you keep your hands over your ears going, “I CAN’T HEAR YOU!” whilst those of us who have a bit of maturity, move on and realise that computers aren’t the centre of our existance, Bill Gates isn’t the IT industry version of Bin Laden, and we don’t need to jump around claiming anything that isn’t Microsoft is obviously better by default.
I have no vested interest in Microsoft, Linux or any other company; like 95% of desktop users, I use what works; I can hook up an iPod and it just works, out of the box, I can play encoded media without needing to hunt around the internet at repositories simply to get some basic things working out of the box.
Sorry, you can keep living in denial and watching your market share go from pathetic to laughable; or you can listen to people like me, and say, “gee, maybe this guy does have a point; maybe we linux developers should get together and solve these problems rather than bitching and ranting about the philosophy behind opensource!”.
“Which you, like all linux zealots fail to actually address the original post.”
It’s awesome to be called a Linux zealot when you dont even use Linux.
… distro specific feature enhancements being sent upstream to allow other to make use of them. That way there is consistency among distros.
lack of stability within the kernel as to allow hardware vendors to provide drivers
I tend to argue that if the stability of driver APIs where the main issue, one would see tons of drivers for devices that do not need a kernel module but work with userspace “drivers”, such as printers, scanners, etc.
Since only very few vendors of such device provide this kind of drivers, I guess there is actually a different reason why hardware vendors often do not provide drivers.
It might be the same reason why lots of hardware has no Windows 2000 support while being supported on Windows XP (or, depending on the hardware’s age, the other way around)
A better API stability would certainly make it easier to maintain drivers, but it is highly questionable to assume it would increase the number of new drivers.