Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 27th Nov 2006 10:55 UTC, submitted by Jean Claude
Linux French députés' offices will be equipped with a Linux operating system and open source productivity software. There will be 1154 French parliamentary workstations running on an open source OS, with OpenOffice.org, Firefox and an open source email client.
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RE[4]: Things to consider
by hraq on Mon 27th Nov 2006 15:11 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Things to consider"
hraq
Member since:
2005-07-06

"Most actually take much less RAM because in linux 90% of the code is shared with PIC-ed .so files, "

OK in linux most of shared libraries that you must install for a given application will never be used for another application; so to install 10 applications you will need to install 100 shared libraries that almost all will never be shared because there is no app other than that you installed will use it!

And by the way dependancy hell in windows is unnoticable to customers, but in linux dependacies are deterrent to the platform, and need to be addressed soon.

"Perhaps CentOS is kind of broken?"
Never, it's Redhat Enterprise Linux without redhat logos, besides these horrible things will show up even more with some other weak distros.

"Even with big stuff like compilation/linking and image processing I never got swap active."

Compilation or image processing are CPU intensive tasks not memory intensive tasks Mr Genius. You have to try P2P networking with Gigabytes of files sharable or better try java based applications like Azureus and see the results, or open 20 tabs on firefox with heavy graphics and flash aniamtions; add to that a movie that you would like to watch with xine based player.

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[5]: Things to consider
by asabil on Mon 27th Nov 2006 15:19 in reply to "RE[4]: Things to consider"
asabil Member since:
2006-03-03

Sorry to say that hraq, but are you stupid ?

1) You just say non sense, and you have no idea about how memory management works, if I have 16G of ram, I would be happy if my OS uses all of that, otherwise it would be a waste.

2) You are talking about shared libraries, but again you really have no idea what it means, shared libraries are SHARED. Prove your saying before saying nonsense again.

3) Here again, you still didn't upgrad eyour brain, and you still think 100% like a msft user, you are using RedHat and/or CentOS not because of their advantages/disatvantages for your but rather because they are the most known distro, just like a msft windows user would prefer to use Photoshop just for scaling or rotating photos.

4) Compilation and Linking can be memory intensive, go take some compilation courses and come back.

Sorry if I was *very* harsh, but I got fedup for your FUD.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[5]: Things to consider
by Almindor on Mon 27th Nov 2006 15:22 in reply to "RE[4]: Things to consider"
Almindor Member since:
2006-01-16

OK in linux most of shared libraries that you must install for a given application will never be used for another application; so to install 10 applications you will need to install 100 shared libraries that almost all will never be shared because there is no app other than that you installed will use it!

Wrong. From libc and stuff like openSSL to gtk and qt, all are pretty well used by many apps. Only few fringe libs aren't actualy "shared".

The dll hell argument is partially right, but taking all the shared stuff with each copy of program is stupid. You could just as well go with static linking. Try telling that to security experts wise guy.


Compilation or image processing are CPU intensive tasks not memory intensive tasks Mr Genius. You have to try P2P networking with Gigabytes of files sharable or better try java based applications like Azureus and see the results, or open 20 tabs on firefox with heavy graphics and flash aniamtions; add to that a movie that you would like to watch with xine based player.


Java based applications suck equally well on most platforms. Windows happens to have a bit better java implementation (as can be tested by the fact that many java applets crash here while work in windows) but that's about it. It has nothing to do with linux per-se.

Btw. linking is real ram and cpu killer. Ever tried smart-linking a half-million lines of code thing? Probably not. Suffice to say, I had to kill ld AND X. In windows I'd have to kill windows tho ;) .

Image processing is a RAM killer too. Try doing something on 4000 by 4000 image then we can talk again.

Point is we're comparing apples and oranges.

And thing is, windows IO and memory handling is worse than linux one. I can't prove it, but I can sure feel it every day.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[6]: Things to consider
by hamster on Mon 27th Nov 2006 16:43 in reply to "RE[5]: Things to consider"
hamster Member since:
2006-10-06

Thats not my experince... last time i had to setup a linux server it needed not only a lot more but double the amount of ram windows needed. It was a fedora core 3. Even without any load on the server it kinda walked insted of running as win2k3 did.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Things to consider
by Ookaze on Mon 27th Nov 2006 16:57 in reply to "RE[4]: Things to consider"
Ookaze Member since:
2005-11-14

OK in linux most of shared libraries that you must install for a given application will never be used for another application

Name one !
It's good to see only lies can help you make your point.
Which of libpng, zlib, openssl, nss, ... will never be used by another app ?
How can you even be sure of that, are you psychic ?
I've yet to find one library that you MUST install that is used by one app only.

so to install 10 applications you will need to install 100 shared libraries that almost all will never be shared because there is no app other than that you installed will use it!

You don't even know what a shared library is, do you ?
You never need to install 100 or even 10 shared libraries for one application.
Just show me one of these apps please.
Note well : Everything is compiled from source on my Linux OS, so if what you say was true, I would be the first to know. But to me, it's pretty obvious you're a clueless lier.

And by the way dependancy hell in windows is unnoticable to customers, but in linux dependacies are deterrent to the platform, and need to be addressed soon

Riiiiight. Like when codec packages urge you to desinstall any other, that's because they fear faeries ? Yes, that's the most prominent case of dependancy hell, that can make your video work one day (when you just installed the software without rebooting), and when you reboot Windows, it doesn't work anymore.
It's always clueless people like you that dare say such nonsense.
FYI, Linux library dependancies work extremely well, and are already addressed. The dependancies problems people have are only in the package systems, that try to prevent the user from destroying their system.

Never, it's Redhat Enterprise Linux without redhat logos, besides these horrible things will show up even more with some other weak distros

Yes, CentOS is not broken. As you're clueless, you thought that the fact that swap was taken (15 % here) meant you actually used it every time (referred to as thrashing) and so, you thought your lie that the system was going to a crawl would fly.

Compilation or image processing are CPU intensive tasks not memory intensive tasks Mr Genius

It's amazing to be so clueless as you are, really !
Compilation (especially C++ with GCC) and image processing are one of the most memory intensive tasks !
Actually, the kdebindings package compilation (with final options) was one of the only compilation capable of making my main computer go to a crawl, by taking all my memory + swap (1 GB + 2GB).

You have to try P2P networking with Gigabytes of files sharable or better try java based applications like Azureus and see the results

You using memory leak full apps like Azureus doesn't mean Linux apps use lots of memory, that just means they are buggy software.
My wife use (k)mldonkey with gigabytes of files shareable, and we never got a problem.

or open 20 tabs on firefox with heavy graphics and flash aniamtions; add to that a movie that you would like to watch with xine based player

And just the same, I'd never use Firefox on my Linux desktop (except when forced to). We use Galeon or EPiphany with far more tabs combined than you have (but not with heavy graphics and flash anims on each, except for ads), constantly open, and never had any problem launching (k)mplayer.
So please, keep your anecdotical bizarre evidences to yourself, they don't mean anything, especially as to Linux apps memory usage.
If you didn't realise by now that your heavy graphics and flash animations are the memory takers, you're a lost soul.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[5]: Things to consider
by ma_d on Mon 27th Nov 2006 18:28 in reply to "RE[4]: Things to consider"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

Compilation is memory intensive and CPU intensive.

Some libraries actually get shared quite a bit, examples:
Gtk/QT (obvious, and everyone shares them)
libgcrypt (what do you think is used in all those crypto programs on Linux?)
gtkhtml (could be, but many applications reinvent the wheel here because html isn't the best way to display everything that's pretty)
kdelibs (there's a lot of stuff here that's very effectively shared amongst kde applications, and some of it is necessary in order to ensure centralized handling of network protocols).

And some libraries seem to only get used by one program. Often this is because it doesn't make sense to have multiple programs: Example, an irc library. But linux software is usually designed around having a package manager to deal with these issues.
Linux has taken the high road here and it's a touch one. Obviously it's not going to be as easy to use, but the users seem to appreciate it nonetheless. And it's users whom you should cater to and not potential users if you're a respectable human being.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Things to consider
by dylansmrjones on Mon 27th Nov 2006 19:10 in reply to "RE[4]: Things to consider"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well.. more bullshit.

Azureus requires approx. 25-30 MBytes. I have Azureus running on occasion (usually helping out with torrents for *bsd or obscure linux-distributions). I have never had any kind of swap use with gentoo on a 1 GB RAM system. Reducing the ram to 512 MB changes the look though. Then the PC starts using something like 150-250 MB of swap space (I have 1.5 GB swap - and it is never used with 1 GB of ram).

Your system must be broken, or I am better at compiling applications then CentOS. Pick whatever answer you prefer (and I don't believe I'm better than the CentOS packagers).

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Things to consider
by sorpigal on Tue 28th Nov 2006 14:57 in reply to "RE[4]: Things to consider"
sorpigal Member since:
2005-11-02

There's an easy way to determine how many shared libraries on your system aren't really shared. Try this simple pipeline:

find /usr/bin/ -type f -perm /a=x -exec ldd {} + | grep -v ^/ | cut -d= -f1 | sort | uniq -c | egrep ' +1 '

This will give you a list of .so files used by exactly one program in /usr/bin/, which is where 90% of all user programs will exist.

find /usr/bin/ -type f -perm /a=x -exec ldd {} + | grep -v ^/ | cut -d= -f1 | sort | uniq -c | egrep ' +1 ' | wc -l

to get the count of how many there are

find /usr/bin/ -type f -perm /a=x | wc -l

to determine how many programs there are in total.

On my system I find 6544 files in /usr/bin/ and only 418 non-shared .so files. That does not seem like "100 shared libs for every program" it seems more like "15 programs for every shared lib".

Reply Parent Score: 4