Linked by David Adams on Fri 12th Sep 2008 16:34 UTC, submitted by irbis
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth announced Wednesday that his company, Canonical, will hire professional designers and interaction experts to improve the usability of the Linux desktop software ecosystem. They will work closely with upstream developers to bring a better experience to users of the open source operating system.
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RE: Great move, but ..
by aseigo on Fri 12th Sep 2008 17:46 UTC in reply to "Great move, but .."
aseigo
Member since:
2005-07-06

> stuff like OK dialog button order

there actually was a de facto standard for this before GNOME pulled a switch-a-roo for no measurable benefit other than to create a new area of inconsistency.

that said, KDE4 and Qt4 appications adapt their button order to the platform: KDE, Windows, Mac or GNOME. a technical solution to the problem, for sure, but it proves that its not only possible it works pretty well.

> The Linux Foundation should really work on these things.

as long as they work with the rest of the community. i'm a little concerne with this announcement that Shuttleworth is tap dancing to work but all by himself and to a tune he's not letting others listen to.

organizations like LF an Canonical can provide a lot of value, but if it's done without working with the rest of the community it's value wasted.

people working on the Linux kernel and other server side bits tend to understand that ... why it gets lost as soon as we hit the desktop? well, i have thoughts on that, but i'll keep them to myself for now =)

> And there is soo much tech duplication and NIH in Gnome and
> KDE.

there is a lot *less* "NIH" in kde4 than there was in kde3. in part this is because the rest of the ecosystem is maturing and gives us more options, in part its because the KDE project recognizes the value in using what is available.

as for strigi, we actually tend to go through Nepomuk these days and when strigi popped around there really weren't any good alternatives. "building what needs to be built" is not NIH.

moreover, Strigi is not tied to KDE in any way. (which actually makes things a bit harder for us at times..)

> Don't wait and hope the Guadec/Akademy double event next
> year will fix all those issues!

it won't. it's a step further down the right path, but it won't be a silver bullet event.

Reply Parent Score: 10

v RE[2]: Great move, but ..
by Manuma on Fri 12th Sep 2008 18:21 in reply to "RE: Great move, but .."
RE[3]: Great move, but ..
by segedunum on Fri 12th Sep 2008 20:27 in reply to "RE[2]: Great move, but .."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Im sorry but you are wrong, there weren0t even a standar when GNOME implemented it, they just followed the Mac OS style, KDE followed thw Windows style.

Yes there was. There were Unix and even Linux desktops before KDE and Gnome came along, what with CDE, Motif applications and guidelines et al, and the accepted standard was left-to-right as it was on Windows. Many of those applications still exist and many people run them still under Linux systems. You see, some of us actually remember this stuff?

Now, what then happened was that some Gnome developers came along, looked at the Mac and said "Goodness, that's what we want to be. I'm moist!" and so the right-to-left button ordering was implemented with no regard for previous Unix desktop history or even with any evidence whatsoever that the change improves usability. There is still no such evidence. It was simply pulled out of the Mac's UI guidelines, shoved into Gnome's UI guidelines and implicitly accepted as fact. The Mac approach isn't better, nor is it wrong. It's just different, and that's what fails to sink in still. That's before you even bring locales into it..........

It's nice to see that Mark Shuttleworth is continuing in that fine tradition of Mac worship, and neatly painting over the really critical things such as attracting developers to Ubuntu, creating a software development target that developers will want to go for and allowing Ubuntu users to install software in a sane manner. But, whatever.

You are still trolling with or w/o code.

You think that was trolling? Bugger. Mind you, there are some people around here who either can't accept the truth, or worse, they think the Linux world and its Unix heritage started when Mark Shuttleworth started throwing CDs at people.

Edited 2008-09-12 20:29 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[2]: Great move, but ..
by kragil on Fri 12th Sep 2008 20:51 in reply to "RE: Great move, but .."
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

Thanks for the insightfull answer, Aaron.

> stuff like OK dialog button order

there actually was a de facto standard for this before GNOME pulled a switch-a-roo for no measurable benefit other than to create a new area of inconsistency.

Yeah, I remember. And I wasn't blaming KDE ;)

that said, KDE4 and Qt4 appications adapt their button order to the platform: KDE, Windows, Mac or GNOME. a technical solution to the problem, for sure, but it proves that its not only possible it works pretty well.


Yeah, that is probably the way to go. KDE adapts, because Gnome cannot/or is not willing to ;(
But in the end it will be a testament to KDE that they can swallow a little pride and do what is best for the free desktop, although they had most of the technologies first.


> The Linux Foundation should really work on these things.

as long as they work with the rest of the community. i'm a little concerne with this announcement that Shuttleworth is tap dancing to work but all by himself and to a tune he's not letting others listen to.

organizations like LF an Canonical can provide a lot of value, but if it's done without working with the rest of the community it's value wasted.

people working on the Linux kernel and other server side bits tend to understand that ... why it gets lost as soon as we hit the desktop? well, i have thoughts on that, but i'll keep them to myself for now =)



I think it is because Gnome has a lot of corporate people with an agenda working on it .. way more than KDE.


> And there is soo much tech duplication and NIH in Gnome and
> KDE.

there is a lot *less* "NIH" in kde4 than there was in kde3. in part this is because the rest of the ecosystem is maturing and gives us more options, in part its because the KDE project recognizes the value in using what is available.

as for strigi, we actually tend to go through Nepomuk these days and when strigi popped around there really weren't any good alternatives. "building what needs to be built" is not NIH.

moreover, Strigi is not tied to KDE in any way. (which actually makes things a bit harder for us at times..)


OK. I probably did not pick the best examples, but it just feels like there are lots of things that might work for both desktops.
At Guadec2008 someone promoted C++ for Gnome development. Maybe if they would adopt that it would keep them from reimplementing a lot of things KDE already did in C.


> Don't wait and hope the Guadec/Akademy double event next
> year will fix all those issues!

it won't. it's a step further down the right path, but it won't be a silver bullet event.


That would be sad ;(

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE[3]: Great move, but ..
by theoddone on Sun 14th Sep 2008 09:38 in reply to "RE[2]: Great move, but .."
theoddone Member since:
2008-09-14

Isn't it strange that Gnome was built by two guys who had close ties with Microsoft long time ago !?

I trust Mark, that's all.

It's about time somebody had the guts to do something like this.

Go Ubuntu, go !!!!

Reply Parent Score: 2