Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 22nd Oct 2009 15:17 UTC
Legal Remember when Steve Jobs unveiled the iPhone, and proclaimed, to much applause, that they patented the hell out of it? Well, apparently Apple likes to boast about its own patents, but when it comes to dealing with other's they're not so willing. That is, if you believe Nokia: the largest phone manufacturer in the world has sued Apple for patent infringement.
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Well, well
by Hakime on Fri 23rd Oct 2009 06:16 UTC
Hakime
Member since:
2005-11-16


"I'm not a particular fan of patent lawsuits, but this does kind of feel like what goes around comes around. Apple shouted its iPhone patent portfolio off the rooftops a few times (during launch, when the Pre came out), so it's kind of hypocritical not to pay up for other companies' patents."



Remember when Steve Jobs unveiled the iPhone, and proclaimed, to much applause, that they patented the hell out of it? Well, apparently Apple likes to boast about its own patents, but when it comes to dealing with other's they're not so willing.


Well could you stop your stupidness, I mean did you ever hear so far that Apple sued Palm or Google for what they have done for the Pre and Android respectively? I don't think so, right? But in the same time, Palm and Google have largely used patented ideas from the iPhone.

Instead of getting things wrong every time you write something, get your facts right. What you should say is that Nokia is a loser on the smartphone market, they don't have the technology, they sell third class products, and they failed in everything where Apple succeeded.

I mean look at it, Apple succeeded to sell a smartphone by millions, Nokia never could; Apple invented a technologically attractive devise, Nokia never could; Apple pionnered multi touch technology on a mobile, Nokia never could; Apple developed a successful market for mobile applications that users actually use, Nokia never could besides having got viruses and malwares spreading on Symbian; Apple is successful in Japan, Nokia never did anything there besides showing how crappy Nokia phones were compared to japanese phones.

And here we are now, Nokia suing Apple because it can't compete in technology and innovation. This is what you should notice in this story not bitching BS over Apple.

Nokia is becoming irrelevant in the smartphone market, where money can be done. The last quarter Nokia has a net loss of more than 800 millions dollars, that means they are losing money in a big way. So what to do better to get some money than to sue the company that makes the iPhone, so that Nokia can show that it still exist trying to make people believe that somehow the iPhone was possible because of Nokia?

Before Apple introduced the iPhone 3GS, it represents 32% of the smartphone industry operating profits in 1H09 with one phone, higher than what Nokia could achieve with a ton of different models, crappy phones with low margins.

http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20090804/iphone-claims-32-percen...

Recently it has been estimated that the average selling price for an iPhone last quarter was $612. Nokia’s average selling price per handset last quarter was about $93.

http://aaplmodel.blogspot.com/2009/10/fiscal-4q-09-actual-results-v...

Make the math, Nokia is doomed. They are not making money. Again what to do then? Well sue the competitor responsible of that....

And if you would have made some research, you would have discovered that Nokia was sued by Qualcomm. Qualcomm has filled 11 patent infringement lawsuits against Nokia between 2005 and 2007 that related to the technology used to access 3G wireless networks.

The suit notably alleged that Nokia's GSM/GPRS/EDGE cellular phones infringe on two patents covering the uses of speech encoders. Another Qualcomm lawsuit filed in the Eastern District of Texas, Marshall Division (a.k.a., the rocket docket) accuses Nokia of infringing on two additional patents covering the downloading of digital content over a GPRS/EDGE network. The case was eventually settled when the two companies made a cross-licensing agreement that also included transfer of several patents to Qualcomm as well as continuing royalty payments by Nokia.

But the real important thing is how Nokia reacted to that. Nokia has criticized very much Qualcomm for doing such action, stating that the dispute could impact the 3G technology as a whole and that the technology evolution could suffer as a consequence. Nokia even filed complaints with German, French, Italian, and UK regulatory authorities. Those complaints accused Qualcomm of harming competition in the cellular phone market with excessive patent licensing fees and seek to have Qualcomm barred from enforcing its patents.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/05/nokia-phones-could-...

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/05/nokia-qualcomm-pate...

Yes this was back to 2007, only two years ago!! And now, having played the victim against Qualcomm, Nokia is suing Apple for the very same reasons. Come on, this is hypocrisy.

And attacking Apple on that is more than a stupid move. We all know that Nokia wants to sell multi-touch phones and doing that will force them to ripp off Apple's idea as Google and Palm did. If They want a multi-touch phone which gonna have a chance on the market, they will have to step on Apple's patents on the matter. That means if Nokia is attacking Apple now (assuming that Nokia's claims are valid), Apple will attack them for anything they will try to do with a multi-touch devise. Actually, Apple can probably already attack them on some patent infringements.

This is what you should have commented with a little bit of research and less hypocrisy yourself, Holwerda, not always bashing on Apple for every story where the name Apple appears.

Now I have a bit the impression Apple is entering the hardware market expecting things to be done similarly there.


I don't get it, what are you talking about? How does this make any sense? Apple has been designing and selling hardware for more than 30 years, come on!! This is total non-sense.

Edited 2009-10-23 06:21 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE: Well, well
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 23rd Oct 2009 09:39 in reply to "Well, well"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

As usual, you only focus on the (possibly) negative things I have to say about Apple. You conveniently ignore the last paragraph of this article, because it does not fit into your paradigm. You have been on a crusade against me for a long time, but you always conveniently ignore anything that does not reaffirm your belief that I am anti-Apple.

It's almost religious.

For instance, you never comment on the positive articles about Apple, like, the last three we ran. You block those out, because they do not fit into your perception of me. You solve your cognitive dissonance by blocking them out.

I'm actually not even annoyed or anything by you. I feel sad for you. It must be lonely in a world where all you care about is religiously attacking anyone who dares to say even one negative iota about The One Company and Its Glorious Leader.

Edited 2009-10-23 09:40 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE: Well, well
by ariarinen on Fri 23rd Oct 2009 10:30 in reply to "Well, well"
ariarinen Member since:
2009-02-07

Apples Iphone Patents are software based, while Nokias patents are hardware based.

Technology:
Nokia has patented its own multi touch technology, it is far more high tech then the one made by Apple. But thats not really important.

Nokia and Ericssons and Qualcomm are the pioneers in this field without their technology you can't build a phone. Ericsson and Nokia has developed the wast majority of the worlds current standards and they power majority of the worlds telecommunication.

The fight between Qualcomm and Nokia is not important Nokia had to pay much higher license fees, the cross-licensing deal was a great deal for both, both had their wins and falls and they sued etch other around the world till they settled the case. Both has patents that they other one has to use so a new cross-licensing agreement had to be made.

Nokia looses some marketshare on the smarthphone market but its mostly to Samsung or LG not to Apple. But with the new N900 they will have the most innovative and powerful smartphone on the market, and their range is the largest, for keyboard bases E-series to touchscreen/keyboard based N-series and the new XpressMusic line with the X6.

To directly compare Nokia and Apples ASP is not fair, Nokia has much broader portfolio while Apple has one. If you instead compare Nokias N-series with the Iphone sales they are in the same price range and volume. Apple has also profit-sharing with the carriers that increases their earnings.

Nokias 3Q loss is entirely based on accounting principals, do to write downs in their joint-venture with Siemens and some on Navteq. They made profit, and they had positive cash flows, and the art artificial loss with only affect dividend payment.

Nokias patent claims are very real and it will take years before they reach and verdict or agreement.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Well, well
by JLF65 on Fri 23rd Oct 2009 17:35 in reply to "RE: Well, well"
JLF65 Member since:
2005-07-06

Apples Iphone Patents are software based, while Nokias patents are hardware based.


If that were true, then they probably don't have a case against Apple. Remember, there's a little term called "patent exhaustion" that applies to hardware patents. What is it? Patent exhaustion means that if a hardware part is subject to a patent, the maker of the part pays the patent fee. The patent owner cannot charge people USING the part a patent fee as the patent was "exhausted" by the first party (the manufacturer). The only way a hardware patent could apply to Apple is if it covered the ENTIRE device in some manner, which would imply it is NOT a hardware patent.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Well, well
by spiderman on Fri 23rd Oct 2009 12:25 in reply to "Well, well"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

I mean look at it, Apple succeeded to sell a smartphone by millions, Nokia never could; Apple invented a technologically attractive devise, Nokia never could; Apple pionnered multi touch technology on a mobile, Nokia never could; Apple developed a successful market for mobile applications that users actually use, Nokia never could besides having got viruses and malwares spreading on Symbian; Apple is successful in Japan, Nokia never did anything there besides showing how crappy Nokia phones were compared to japanese phones.

From that quote, I can say that you are from the US, and don't know anything about Nokia. You probably only read US newspapers and think the Apple has taken over the world with the iPhone.

For your information, in the rest of the world the iPhone is just another phone. The quote is totally incorrect, especially the first sentence. In the rest or your post, you are plain wrong.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Well, well
by cycoj on Fri 23rd Oct 2009 22:31 in reply to "Well, well"
cycoj Member since:
2007-11-04

"
"I'm not a particular fan of patent lawsuits, but this does kind of feel like what goes around comes around. Apple shouted its iPhone patent portfolio off the rooftops a few times (during launch, when the Pre came out), so it's kind of hypocritical not to pay up for other companies' patents."



Remember when Steve Jobs unveiled the iPhone, and proclaimed, to much applause, that they patented the hell out of it? Well, apparently Apple likes to boast about its own patents, but when it comes to dealing with other's they're not so willing.


Well could you stop your stupidness, I mean did you ever hear so far that Apple sued Palm or Google for what they have done for the Pre and Android respectively? I don't think so, right? But in the same time, Palm and Google have largely used patented ideas from the iPhone.
"
The point here is that Apple hasn't sued Palm or Google because most of Apples patents would not hold up. Apple might have been the first to have patented multitouch but it's easy to find prior art. Furthermore patenting the individual gestures, WTF!? The IPhone patents are artificially inflated to make Apple look like a big innovator. In particular if they would start suing Palm I believe they would loose out, because Palm will hold quite a few patents they Apple would be infringing (not that I'm saying these should be any more valid then Apples).


Instead of getting things wrong every time you write something, get your facts right. What you should say is that Nokia is a loser on the smartphone market, they don't have the technology, they sell third class products, and they failed in everything where Apple succeeded.

I mean look at it, Apple succeeded to sell a smartphone by millions, Nokia never could; Apple invented a technologically attractive devise, Nokia never could; Apple pionnered multi touch technology on a mobile, Nokia never could; Apple developed a successful market for mobile applications that users actually use, Nokia never could besides having got viruses and malwares spreading on Symbian; Apple is successful in Japan, Nokia never did anything there besides showing how crappy Nokia phones were compared to japanese phones.

Your point is?? Btw your Nokia is still selling multiple times as many smartphones as Apple, and lets not even talk about phones overall.


And here we are now, Nokia suing Apple because it can't compete in technology and innovation. This is what you should notice in this story not bitching BS over Apple.

Nokias R&D budget is many times that of Apple, a large proportion of the infrastructure behind mobile phone networks runs on Nokia hardware. What is Apples great innovation on the technology side? Yes they have taken some ideas from mainly other people and build a great product out of it. Apple is a great integrator, but they do not create any "base" technology.


Nokia is becoming irrelevant in the smartphone market, where money can be done. The last quarter Nokia has a net loss of more than 800 millions dollars, that means they are losing money in a big way. So what to do better to get some money than to sue the company that makes the iPhone, so that Nokia can show that it still exist trying to make people believe that somehow the iPhone was possible because of Nokia?

Before Apple introduced the iPhone 3GS, it represents 32% of the smartphone industry operating profits in 1H09 with one phone, higher than what Nokia could achieve with a ton of different models, crappy phones with low margins.

http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20090804/iphone-claims-32-percen... http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20090804/iphone-claims-32-percent-o f-handset-industry-operating-profits/" rel="nofollow">http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20090804/iphone-claims-32-percen...

Recently it has been estimated that the average selling price for an iPhone last quarter was $612. Nokia’s average selling price per handset last quarter was about $93.

http://aaplmodel.blogspot.com/2009/10/fiscal-4q-09-actual-results-v... http://aaplmodel.blogspot.com/2009/10/fiscal-4q-09-actual-results-vs.h tml" rel="nofollow">http://aaplmodel.blogspot.com/2009/10/fiscal-4q-09-actual-results-v...

Make the math, Nokia is doomed. They are not making money. Again what to do then? Well sue the competitor responsible of that....

And if you would have made some research, you would have discovered that Nokia was sued by Qualcomm. Qualcomm has filled 11 patent infringement lawsuits against Nokia between 2005 and 2007 that related to the technology used to access 3G wireless networks.

The suit notably alleged that Nokia's GSM/GPRS/EDGE cellular phones infringe on two patents covering the uses of speech encoders. Another Qualcomm lawsuit filed in the Eastern District of Texas, Marshall Division (a.k.a., the rocket docket) accuses Nokia of infringing on two additional patents covering the downloading of digital content over a GPRS/EDGE network. The case was eventually settled when the two companies made a cross-licensing agreement that also included transfer of several patents to Qualcomm as well as continuing royalty payments by Nokia.

But the real important thing is how Nokia reacted to that. Nokia has criticized very much Qualcomm for doing such action, stating that the dispute could impact the 3G technology as a whole and that the technology evolution could suffer as a consequence. Nokia even filed complaints with German, French, Italian, and UK regulatory authorities. Those complaints accused Qualcomm of harming competition in the cellular phone market with excessive patent licensing fees and seek to have Qualcomm barred from enforcing its patents.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/05/nokia-phones-could-... http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/05/nokia-phones-could-be- barred-from-us-in-qualcomm-patent-squabble.ars" rel="nofollow">http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/05/nokia-phones-could-...

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/05/nokia-qualcomm-pate... http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/05/nokia-qualcomm-patent- dustup-bad-for-3g.ars" rel="nofollow">http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/05/nokia-qualcomm-pate...

Yes this was back to 2007, only two years ago!! And now, having played the victim against Qualcomm, Nokia is suing Apple for the very same reasons. Come on, this is hypocrisy.

You're accusing Nokia of hypocrisy but not Apple? That's rich! I believe every large company are big on hypocrisy, they spin the news however they like. But don't selectively accuse one.


And attacking Apple on that is more than a stupid move. We all know that Nokia wants to sell multi-touch phones and doing that will force them to ripp off Apple's idea as Google and Palm did. If They want a multi-touch phone which gonna have a chance on the market, they will have to step on Apple's patents on the matter. That means if Nokia is attacking Apple now (assuming that Nokia's claims are valid), Apple will attack them for anything they will try to do with a multi-touch devise. Actually, Apple can probably already attack them on some patent infringements.

Why do all you Apple fanboys think that Apples multi-touch patents are so valuable? The multi-touch principle has been around quite a while before Apple, Apple just brought it to the mass market. They mainly patented stuff around (like the individual gestures, which IMO is trivial to work around and also not very likely to hold up against obviousness tests). Apple does not have a very valuable or extensive patent portfolio i

Reply Parent Score: 1