Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 10th Apr 2011 19:57 UTC, submitted by PLan
Legal Should I be sad or relieved? Groklaw, the website that played a central role in the SCO vs. sanity case, has just announced it will close up shop on May 16 of this year. Groklaw's place in history has been secured, surely, but in recent years, the site became more and more like a relic from the past, clearly stuck in the everyone vs. Microsoft mindset of the late '90s and early 2000s. Even in today's announcement post, Groklaw shows that its time has indeed come.
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RE[2]: Microsoft...
by olafg on Mon 11th Apr 2011 17:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Microsoft..."
olafg
Member since:
2010-05-27

You're the one that is naive. Million line C++ codebases are not going to be converted over to Javascript. Very few seem to understand how much work it takes to build software like Autocad or Vegas.


I am not naive, I'm just way ahead of you... ;-)

Get off your high horse: I said competitors to Office, not AutoCAD. Actually, the HTML5 engine does a lot of the GUI-work for most apps. As ECMAScript gets closer to strict typing the JIT will do better work, and you can write your apps in a language close to C++/D that compiles down to typed javascript. Look at Google's Closure for a start.

And yes, I am proficient in both ASM, C++, ECMAScript and a slew of other languages... Most imperative languages are rather similar, which of course is why they can use the same compiler backend. Compilers can get a long way by static analysis on programs that stay away from dynamic features. You just have to know how the compiler works and write with that in mind.

Our alternative isn't good enough for you? Well then go eat your juicy steak then ya bastard! Go eat it with a nice cold beer! That will teach you!


Actually, online web-apps provide easy access from any HTML5 capable browser. So online-office is easier than moving your files and apps with you.

As for computational power. ActionScript3 is based on a dialect of ECMAScript and provides strict typing. Flash10 PixelEngine (used to be called Hydra) provides very fast SIMD operations on arrays. It's only a matter of time before a descendant of OpenCL is be available in browsers. Give it 5-10 years. If Apple, Opera and Firefox cooperate then HTML5 can become av very real office application platform. Webkit is very close, already.

Edit: And yes... you could run AutoCAD as a client-server app with the AutoCAD codebase running on the server and having a webGL streaming display engine in the browser-client. No problem if you have a speedy connection to the server.

Edited 2011-04-11 17:28 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Microsoft...
by nt_jerkface on Tue 12th Apr 2011 01:33 in reply to "RE[2]: Microsoft..."
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

Actually, the HTML5 engine does a lot of the GUI-work for most apps. As ECMAScript gets closer to strict typing the JIT will do better work, and you can write your apps in a language close to C++/D that compiles down to typed javascript. Look at Google's Closure for a start.


Let's say that MS even takes it a step further and brings HTML5/ECMAScript to Visual Studio and allows the use of C#. For most software that still isn't enough incentive to convert existing code.

By the time that even happens there will be alternative web frameworks that provide better performance. HTML5 is general purpose and development moves too slowly.

If Apple, Opera and Firefox cooperate then HTML5 can become av very real office application platform. Webkit is very close, already.


You didn't specify office applications. There will be a variety of online office applications eventually since it is commonly used software. But most business software is going to stay local.

And yes... you could run AutoCAD as a client-server app with the AutoCAD codebase running on the server and having a webGL streaming display engine in the browser-client. No problem if you have a speedy connection to the server.


That isn't an HTML5 application, that's just streaming and there is already existing tech like Citrix. The major downside to streaming is a company like Autodesk has to provide a massive amount of bandwidth and cpu processing in addition to the software. Or they could keep making money by selling localized versions. A tough choice.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Microsoft...
by olafg on Tue 12th Apr 2011 11:29 in reply to "RE[3]: Microsoft..."
olafg Member since:
2010-05-27

Let's say that MS even takes it a step further and brings HTML5/ECMAScript to Visual Studio and allows the use of C#. For most software that still isn't enough incentive to convert existing code.


There are already compilers that target javascript for all kinds of languages: java, python, C#, even C/C++/LLVM (emscript)... If the XXX2javascript compiler-writer knows the internals of the browser JIT then javascript effectively becomes an intermediate representation. So I am not so sure that you need all that much conversion eventually, provided that you can emulate the libraries efficiently. Of course, this assumes that people are willing to put the effort into it.

By the time that even happens there will be alternative web frameworks that provide better performance. HTML5 is general purpose and development moves too slowly.


I think this depends on how Adobe and Apple behave. If Adobe keeps improving Flash11/AIR with app development in mind and Apple keeps improving webkit with killing Flash in mind then HTML5 could become powerful enough to support typical apps. A lot of the animated GUIstuff in iOS can be done in webkit already.

Is Javascript a horrible IR? Yes, but unfortunately critical mass means a lot when it comes to market penetration.

You didn't specify office applications. There will be a variety of online office applications eventually since it is commonly used software. But most business software is going to stay local.


On the level of COBOL, yes. On the level of end-user-frontends, no?

That isn't an HTML5 application, that's just streaming and there is already existing tech like Citrix. The major downside to streaming is a company like Autodesk has to provide a massive amount of bandwidth and cpu processing in addition to the software. Or they could keep making money by selling localized versions. A tough choice.


A real possibility is that you have local computing centres tied to ISPs where your app-provider rent CPU time and that you purchase services that stream content to your, say HTML6 app. That bypass GPL by the way, because you don't have to share your code unless you distribute binaries to end users. And it prevents piracy. Not so suitable for Autodesk perhaps, but attractive for some other areas. Though, a cultural change is needed and will take time. Cultural changes are hard to predict though.

I don't think this is anti-proprietary at all. In fact this is how proprietary vendors can extend free software without contributing. Over time that might become more and more attractive (as free software foundations become more and more powerful and building from scratch becomes more and more expensive). Not sure what FSF will do with the GPL when or if that scenario comes through.

Edited 2011-04-12 11:39 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1