Linked by paolone on Fri 20th Jul 2012 19:21 UTC
Amiga & AROS The AROS distribution Icaros Desktop has made its next step towards compatibility with legacy Amiga workbench applications, including an entire AROS enviroment compiled for the classic Amiga platform, which is almost binary compatible with the original Amiga OS 3.1 (and its extensions). When the user needs an old program, he or she only has to fire up the AROS M68K environment and run the application. The Amiga virtual machine can optionally be set to run at startup like a system service.
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RE: AMOS Pro is included?
by bassbeast on Sun 22nd Jul 2012 07:16 UTC in reply to "AMOS Pro is included?"
bassbeast
Member since:
2007-11-11

That's nice but I have a question: Other than nostalgia what is the point?

I mean I can understand why you'd want Amiga back in the day, with its specialized chips it was a multimedia monster in an age where a 30 FPS 320x240 video on anybody else was frankly impossible.

But why now? what does Amiga offer that the others don't? You don't have the killer specialized hardware anymore since everyone uses the same bog standard stuff, it frankly can't hold a candle to a modern Windows, OSX, or Linux when it comes to multitasking, so other than nostalgia what is the appeal?

Not trying to troll, and if anybody was waiting for this please do enjoy it, i'm just trying to understand what the appeal is here. I mean I get maybe firing up a VM once in a while just to relive memories, but what is the point of completely rebuilding a long dead OS like this?

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: AMOS Pro is included?
by Zobeid on Sun 22nd Jul 2012 13:35 in reply to "RE: AMOS Pro is included?"
Zobeid Member since:
2012-04-28

Of course nostalgia is part of it... The Amiga was probably the most widespread and popular computing platform to ever suffer total commercial failure (thanks to Commodore's mismanagement), so obviously there are a lot of people who don't want to let it go. (The inclusion of software like AMOS Pro and Hurrican says something about this too.)

But, more than that... It's an alternative. Rational or not, some of us are attracted to the different, the offbeat. We don't think it should be the destiny of every OS to someday grow up and become a Unix or Linux spinoff. That applies not only to AROS and Icaros Desktop, but also Haiku, Syllable, etc.

Also, it's small. Linux (at least in the mainstream distros) has followed the path of Windows and Mac OS X, and bloated out into a multi-gigabyte monster. It's really too much of a good thing. I feel like if an OS can't fit on a CD-R, it tells me something has gone way, way off track.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: AMOS Pro is included?
by djohnston on Sun 22nd Jul 2012 21:10 in reply to "RE[2]: AMOS Pro is included?"
djohnston Member since:
2006-04-11

Also, it's small. Linux (at least in the mainstream distros) has followed the path of Windows and Mac OS X, and bloated out into a multi-gigabyte monster. It's really too much of a good thing. I feel like if an OS can't fit on a CD-R, it tells me something has gone way, way off track.


Hate to rain on your parade. I am an enthusiastic Icaros user and a longtime Linux user. But, the Icaros 1.4.5 iso is 2.5GBs in size. That will hardly fit on a CD-R.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: AMOS Pro is included?
by zima on Wed 25th Jul 2012 15:22 in reply to "RE[2]: AMOS Pro is included?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

The Amiga was probably the most widespread and popular computing platform to ever suffer total commercial failure (thanks to Commodore's mismanagement)

Putting the blame on Commodore misses the reality of the situation (well, not uncommon in later ~Amiga movements...) - look at this graph http://arstechnica.com/features/2005/12/total-share/5/ (and the next 6), there was nothing C= could do against such onslaught (except maybe adopting large part of Amiga tech for the PC, as an add-on card for gfx & audio; but that would be heresy to many Amigans)

The Amiga architecture, what gave it its strengths in the heyday, also severely limited its progress - the tightly integrated hardware made the improvement process more expensive (and it wasn't spread among many companies), slower. Plus, with software mostly targeting the configuration that everybody had, hardly anybody saw reason to upgrade - Amiga never really managed to move beyond the A500 generation of hardware, it remained the baseline for most of its users till the end.

Complicating things was how this very console-like dynamics didn't have a matching economic model (like with Atari 2600, video game crash of 1983 - curiously, C= largely brought this one, seems they didn't really realize what they did in 83). The hardware prices were expected to go down, profits were falling, and meanwhile C= wasn't able to extract money from dev houses - because they didn't have control over them as a gatekeeper, what for example Nintendo did back then. So yeah, with how Amiga was, there perhaps was a way to keep it afloat - but you probably wouldn't like it (copied games collections were so much nicer...), and it would need to be done at the very beginning anyway: by early 90s, the cat was long out of the bag.

PC started off worse, but could be more readily expanded, and it swamped everything else with its economies of scale - it just turned out to be a more optimal model of doing things, a more sensible approach (look at present "Amigas" - they are just PCs really, only with weird CPU for no good reason)

Also, it's small. Linux (at least in the mainstream distros) has followed the path of Windows and Mac OS X, and bloated out into a multi-gigabyte monster. It's really too much of a good thing. I feel like if an OS can't fit on a CD-R, it tells me something has gone way, way off track.

It tells me something has really gone way, way off track when it's OK if an OS can't reliably recover from misbehaving applications. Or has no security model to speak of (yes, various ~Amiga operating systems are virtually immune due to being maybe few thousand active users; still, it was more the qualities of design).

And, meanwhile, most of the present useful software are ports from the PC operating systems... (which can be also very small, if you care about it and don't include many goodies which aren't strictly part of the OS)

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: AMOS Pro is included?
by ferrels on Mon 23rd Jul 2012 02:44 in reply to "RE: AMOS Pro is included?"
ferrels Member since:
2006-08-15

Just like MorphOS, the point is that you can have an Amiga-like system on modern hardware. AROS includes 3D hardware acceleration via GAllium 3D with all the eye-candy we've come to expect from late generation nVidia hardware as well as all the other niceties that we've come to enjoy from low-cost, modern hardware. As I said in an earlier post, that's the whole point of AROS. AROS wasn't designed to re-live the glory days of 68K Amigas. If you want to do that, go and buy a classic 68K Amiga system or use one of the UAE variants under Windows or Linux. But until AROS gets broader software support, especially office apps, then 68K emulation will just have to be a stop-gap until that support improves. We need native x86 AROS native versions of Ignition (spreadsheet), and a few other tools before AROS is ready for everyday use.

Edited 2012-07-23 02:45 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: AMOS Pro is included?
by moondevil on Mon 23rd Jul 2012 05:42 in reply to "RE[2]: AMOS Pro is included?"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

For me the whole point of the Amiga was its hardware.

What we were able to do with clever 68000 Assembly coding coupled with the Paula, Denise and Agnus chipsets.

No emulator is going repeat this type of experience. For those of us that used to do this, the operating system was just a mean to get to the hardware.

Nowadays time is better spend doing clever tricks with GPGPU/Shader and audio DSP programming.

On the other hand, we really need more operating system models besides the Windows/UNIX duality that we get on the desktop.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: AMOS Pro is included?
by zima on Wed 25th Jul 2012 21:59 in reply to "RE[2]: AMOS Pro is included?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

the point is that you can have an Amiga-like system on modern hardware. AROS includes 3D hardware acceleration via GAllium 3D with all the eye-candy we've come to expect from late generation nVidia hardware as well as all the other niceties that we've come to enjoy from low-cost, modern hardware [...] AROS wasn't designed to re-live the glory days of 68K Amigas.

It doesn't really use very thoroughly the niceties of inexpensive hardware, the most crucial modern example of those being the MMU unit of the CPU... (for "modern" = "already standard two+ decades ago"; nvm multicore).
It very much relives the old days (also some not very glorious parts).

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: AMOS Pro is included?
by paolone on Mon 23rd Jul 2012 08:08 in reply to "RE: AMOS Pro is included?"
paolone Member since:
2007-09-24

i'm just trying to understand what the appeal is here. I mean I get maybe firing up a VM once in a while just to relive memories, but what is the point of completely rebuilding a long dead OS like this?


AmigaOS made some real magic when hardware resources were scarce. At the times of first Pentium and Athlon processors I often asked myself how a low-footprint OS like AmigaOS would have performed on such CPUs, since it performed so well on a <10 MHz processor. I embraced the AROS project short after its birth because I felt it could give me an answer. And that's my motivation.

I perfectly know the world has changed so much in the meanwhile. We've now multi core processors, multi CPU motherboards, hybrid architectures like APUs and all the power a GPU can give, not only with graphics. So now my new curiosity is about how Amiga can deal with all this, and once again AROS can give me the answers (although current stable branch supports just 1 CPU and has no OpenCL support yet, multicore stuff is in the works).

Moreover, I grew up with the Amiga in the first 90s and loved its OS: there are many little habits I couldn't simply find in "mainstream OSes", so if I can have a way to continue with them, performing about the same tasks I can do with other alternatives, why shouldn't I?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: AMOS Pro is included?
by zima on Fri 27th Jul 2012 23:59 in reply to "RE[2]: AMOS Pro is included?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

AmigaOS made some real magic when hardware resources were scarce. At the times of first Pentium and Athlon processors I often asked myself how a low-footprint OS like AmigaOS would have performed on such CPUs, since it performed so well on a <10 MHz processor.

There's a "problem" (not really, just from an elegance point of view) when that means bringing over things which made it nice back then, which very much made sense, but just don't fit modern times...
I'm guessing that proper memory protection will come right around the time of ditching silicon for something else, in chips.

Overall, the answer to "how would have performed" is perhaps that it really doesn't, that is sort of outside context - it's not any more an Amiga (a limited but very tightly coupled hardware and software; with some sacrifices in that elegance and purist correctness in the latter, for the sake of efficiency)


And most other OS can be also quite small, when not looking at the size of whole distribution ( http://www.osnews.com/permalink?527819 ).

Edited 2012-07-28 00:03 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: AMOS Pro is included?
by zima on Wed 25th Jul 2012 03:38 in reply to "RE: AMOS Pro is included?"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Other than nostalgia what is the point?
I mean I can understand why you'd want Amiga back in the day, with its specialized chips it was a multimedia monster in an age where a 30 FPS 320x240 video on anybody else was frankly impossible.
But why now? what does Amiga offer that the others don't? [...] other than nostalgia what is the appeal?
[...] what is the point of completely rebuilding a long dead OS like this?

Remember, AROS started in what was basically still mid-90s, when the memory was fresh. And then they managed to keep tinkering with it - good for them, I'd say (considering how many ~hobby OS died along the way).
But at least AROS seems the least crazy out of all ~Amiga projects, it mostly realizes its place - while some other camps sometimes seemed to behave and express like they're just those few steps away from taking back the world.

And 30 FPS 320x240 video? I don't think that was possible on pretty much anything-consumer (and was brought largely by PCs, later) - CDXL had considerably lower resolution and framerate, plus very limited colour palette.
unless you meant animation, but that's a bit distinct (and, within different gfx styles, some other machines could do it too)

Reply Parent Score: 2