Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 17th Mar 2014 17:46 UTC
In the News

The big story over the weekend.

The exit of engineer Julie Ann Horvath from programming network GitHub has sparked yet another conversation concerning women in technology and startups. Her claims that she faced a sexist internal culture at GitHub came as a surprise to some, given her former defense of the startup and her internal work at the company to promote women in technology.

GitHub's response:

We know we have to take action and have begun a full investigation. While that’s ongoing, and effective immediately, the relevant founder has been put on leave, as has the referenced GitHub engineer. The founder’s wife discussed in the media reports has never had hiring or firing power at GitHub and will no longer be permitted in the office.

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RE: A fine example...
by Kochise on Wed 19th Mar 2014 10:36 UTC in reply to "A fine example..."
Kochise
Member since:
2006-03-03

Hello jal_, regarding our past conversation ( http://www.osnews.com/thread?556695 ) regarding misogynist behaviors, I searched the web for more occurrence. While I sure do sound "miso", I've been raised by my mostly feminist mother in between my two older and younger sisters.

I found this :

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and...

http://cafaitgenre.org/2013/03/16/sexisme-chez-les-geeks-pourquoi-n...

There is obviously several other examples, compulsory of the 4chan attitude that I condemn.

I'd like to add this :

It is said, amongst men, that "a hole is a hole, a dick has no eye" to say that even an ugly woman can be served to men. This! is a sexist joke, far beyon the "dongle" comment that infuriated Aria. To this the guys would have deserved the ban, but not with a silly dongle joke. There is a level of measure to be taken, and the red button is not one of them.

Aria was not threatened the way Anita Sarkeesian was.

So, that leads to what I wanted to explore with you. As a coder, I had to work with coder... girls, that were even better at coding logic than I was. I had them in great respect, relating to them as very competent colleague, sexually unrelated. They were very few, but very efficient. They can only work with smart people that elude the sexual tension and recognize them as coworkers.

Unfortunately, it's not a common conception, and men overall prefer to follow the Christian stereotype to put the woman at raising kids and cooking the meals. If I recall correctly, at school the top level students were mostly girls, so that's maybe a hint. Keeping women at house is perhaps a subconscious strategy to avoid to face competent and effective female coworkers that might put them to shame.

Now the conclusion : like it is said that "penis has no eye", it is also said that "money has no odor". The final consumer is unaware if the product was conceived, produced, manufactured and sold by men, women or even kids (Nike shoes). Soooooo...

What if a company is settled up entirely from female workers and coworkers, create so much successful products that put to shame the (male based) competition ? That would be a significant proof.

It reminds me a bit the way some firms are rotten with unions. I'm not against unions, I'm unionized myself, but some unions or unionized workers are beyond logic and/or reasonable : they want everything for nothing (French plague). When an union works for the comfort of the workers without causing trouble to the firm, that's cooperative work, and Chuck Norris approves that.

So, maybe to make laws to favor some undeserved positions to women, I just say : STOP ! If a woman is more competent than a man at the same position, the logic would be to chose the woman, isn't it ? True, reality ain't always drove by logic.

Women should take a realistic stance instead to try to occupy positions amongst men. Beside irritating everyone with their (often valid) claims they should just play with the (tricky) system and just show they have... balls, if not favor female positions in their company, since there is no law to specifically favor mens.

That's my two euro cents.

Kochise

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: A fine example...
by Ultimatebadass on Wed 19th Mar 2014 12:26 in reply to "RE: A fine example..."
Ultimatebadass Member since:
2006-01-08

Aria was not threatened the way Anita Sarkeesian was.


Actually, what Sarkeesian did was trollbait 4chan, pulled a "damsel in distress" (help me internets! t3h 4chans are saying mean things!), setup a kickstarter and laughed all the way to the bank.

Edited 2014-03-19 12:26 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: A fine example...
by jal_ on Wed 19th Mar 2014 12:50 in reply to "RE[2]: A fine example..."
jal_ Member since:
2006-11-02

Actually, what Sarkeesian did was

Thank you for exemplifying the problem, once again.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: A fine example...
by jal_ on Wed 19th Mar 2014 12:49 in reply to "RE: A fine example..."
jal_ Member since:
2006-11-02

While I'll reply more indepth later, do you know this video by any chance? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UWxlVvT1A

Quite powerful, imho

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: A fine example...
by Kochise on Wed 19th Mar 2014 13:42 in reply to "RE[2]: A fine example..."
Kochise Member since:
2006-03-03

Will see that later, but I don't always believes in video propaganda. If they are the "majority", they can make them heard another way. I can understand that you are protective toward your daughter, but don't be biased.

When women are as competent as, if no more than men, no one dare to challenge them. Call this respect, submissiveness, cowardice, these kind of women inherently shadows the fact that they are females in the first place. They talk on a equal ground with their men collegues, customers, bosses...

Don't worry, a lame man can also be the victim of quip, from men and also from those "fragile" women. Ever seen geek/nerd guys having hard time with (a) girl(s) ? Ooohh, suddenly those girls aren't the poor little victims anymore and can play quite a harsh game with men.

Don't get me wrong, on either side, stupidity can breaks records...

Kochise

Edited 2014-03-19 13:43 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: A fine example...
by jal_ on Thu 20th Mar 2014 14:45 in reply to "RE: A fine example..."
jal_ Member since:
2006-11-02

It is said, amongst men, that "a hole is a hole, a dick has no eye" to say that even an ugly woman can be served to men. This! is a sexist joke, far beyond the "dongle" comment that infuriated Aria.

There's always worse. Always. But we don't say to a brutally raped and beat-up woman "Remember that girl in India that was gangraped and her intestins poked out by an iron bar? So stop whining." The dongle joke was a crude one, and not the worst. However, you can't see that joke and the reaction free from context. Without context, it may be innocent. But in an environment where sexism seems to be the norm, it may be the last straw. Follow @everydaysexism on Twitter, even just for a few days, and see what women have to endure, day in, day out, every day. Then add to that a working enironment known for its sexism.

So, maybe to make laws to favor some undeserved positions to women, I just say : STOP ! If a woman is more competent than a man at the same position, the logic would be to chose the woman, isn't it ? True, reality ain't always drove by logic.

I'm against most forms of positive discrimination. But remember that when all things are equal, it wouldn't be necessary. The tech industry proves time and time again to be very unwelcoming to women, because of the rampant sexism that even plagues this forum.

they should just play with the (tricky) system and just show they have... balls, if not favor female positions in their company, since there is no law to specifically favor mens.

The system is fully and completely designed by, and for, men. It's a male system. A menz system. A system where women are at a disadvantage from the start. Read for example this: https://medium.com/thoughts-on-society/a1345b36b91b for a very good metaphore. And worse, not only is it a system that disfavours women, it's also a system that treats women like objects designed for male pleasure. And if you are a women, working in tech, fighting the misconceptions and the men favouring working conditions, *and* have to deal with co-workers making sexist jokes, sexual advances or even rape, and on top of it all you get rape threats for speaking out about it, I can only say we live in a rotten, rotten world.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: A fine example...
by Kochise on Thu 20th Mar 2014 16:58 in reply to "RE[2]: A fine example..."
Kochise Member since:
2006-03-03

I don't follow you quite fully on this path. Do you think Angela Merkel is at her position for just being a woman ? Christine Lagarde for the IMF ? Hilary Clintown just because spouse of a former USA president ?

Nope, these girls have competences. I've told you, women can create their own network and business to show proofs, and label them "Made by women" to get almost automatic support by half the population.

Kochise

Reply Parent Score: 2