Linked by Rayiner Hashem on Tue 15th Nov 2005 17:44 UTC
Apple I recently bought one of the new dual core PowerMacs. Having used the machine for a couple of weeks, I thought I would share some of my observations and feelings about it. First, let me get my biases out in the open. I have, for about four years, very happily used Linux on my desktop. Doing so has made me very comfortable with the UNIX environment in general, and with GNOME specifically. During that time, I have used OS X machines on a regular basis, so I am quite comfortable in that environment as well. Since I switched to Linux, I have not used Windows for anything more than the occasional bit of software testing or lab work, and generally feel quite uncomfortable with it. Thus, this article is very much written from the perspective of someone who finds OS X and Linux pleasing on principle. I implore the reader to make his own value judgments based on my comments.
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Arun
Member since:
2005-07-07

Tested memory that is certified for aggressive timings, bandwidth, dual-channel configurations, and the quality of the circuitry of the modules. These are the highest-quality are resilient batches of memory supplied with guarantees of performance.

All this means what exactly at 4-4-4-12 timings? Absolutely nothing!! So no value add. On rayiner's G5 a cl 3-3-3-8 memory isn't better or more reliable. You can pretend all you want but the memory that comes with the G5 is Good not some cheap generic no name brand as you and Rayiner seem to suggest.

OCZ does provide ECC memory, so does Mushkin.

They have no DDR2 533Mhz ECC memory in thier catalog. Hmmm.. the G5 needs one of those. Let me see. Corsair, Mushkin and OCZ have none. Premium indeed. They are hobbist gaming enthusiast brands. Not serious companies making serious products for the entire computing industry.

If you think top end computing is an X2 or pentium Dxxx with OCZ or corsair or mucskin DIMMS. I have bad news for you about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

If you understand how ECC memory works you know that ECC memory quality is as variable as any other DRAM, and that the error correction is only useful for correcting one-bit errors and does nothing to ensure the quality of the memory. Premium ECC memory will be from the better bins, have quality circuitry, and all of the niceties associate with selectiveness.

Really. You can do multi-bit correction with ECC and chip kill. Sun's recently announced UltraSPARC T1's memory controller supports quad error correct and octal error detect ECC and chipkill.

According to me that is top-end computing. Not Corsair, OCZ and mushkin in a gaming PC.

No. Why would it? Don't tell me, despite that I told you that these brands have value models hours ago, you've just now discovered them. To think, you only need to Google everything someone says to construct a half-assed response.

No I knew they had a value brand. I bought mushkin DIMMS before remmember. I was looking a t corsair the orher day. But is thier value brand any better than the samsung DIMM? No google query will answer an opinion I thought you would provide. Now answer the question.

"Crucial for example is Micron memory with a different brand name to set it apart as "quality." Keep in mind that there are only a few DDR/DDR2 manufacturers in world. In picking Hynix, Samsung, or Micron branded memory you're picking from the ass-end of the spectrum."

Hey, maybe you can repeat me some more and lie about what I've said. Quality, that.


Scroll down in that link and take a look at the picture of the Crucial DIMM. That is exactly like the DIMM I got from crucial for my G5.

http://www.short-media.com/printcontent.php?print=r&id=290

What value or "quality" is that extra curcial sticker adding to the micron DIMM. Nothing? Only naive idiots like you think a subsidiary or spin off means quality somehow.

You can pick your designation from (1) illiterate (2) stupid (3) troll that's wasted my time.

Or Smarter and less gullible than you and you don't want to admit it.

Edited 2005-11-16 19:58

Reply Parent Score: 1

rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

You can pretend all you want but the memory that comes with the G5 is Good not some cheap generic no name brand as you and Rayiner seem to suggest.

The only part in the Mac that I suggested was cheap was the Western Digital. I did so because when I bought the X2's drives, the 2500JD was running in a completely different price bracket from the Maxtor and Seagate 250GB drives I was considering. This is because it was previous-generation technology (older platter designs, etc). For the rest of the parts, I simply suggested that they were nothing you wouldn't find in a Dell. You've done nothing but prove that. Dell doesn't use no-name parts in their computers. They use cheap, often generic, but decent parts. My last Dell tower came with Micron RAM, for example.

The whole point of the exercise was to debunk the idea that Apple uses particularly high-quality parts in their machines. The underlying implication, of course, is also that these parts cost more, justifying the price premium of Apple computers. All you've done is debunk these claims with your insistence that quality fans don't matter, or quality RAM doesn't matter. Maybe they don't. That doesn't change the fact that Apple machines use the same parts Dell machines do.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

The only part in the Mac that I suggested was cheap was the Western Digital. I did so because when I bought the X2's drives, the 2500JD was running in a completely different price bracket from the Maxtor and Seagate 250GB drives I was considering.

Is the WD2500JD in the g5? or is it the WD2500JS? Different drive SATA-II and the price checks prove you wrong.

Dell doesn't use no-name parts in their computers. They use cheap, often generic, but decent parts. My last Dell tower came with Micron RAM, for example.

Did I claim that Dell used cheaper parts than Apple? There is nothing wrong with Micron DIMMs.


The whole point of the exercise was to debunk the idea that Apple uses particularly high-quality parts in their machines.


They do use high quailty parts. They just don't meet your silent PC standards that are personal to you and only you.

The underlying implication, of course, is also that these parts cost more, justifying the price premium of Apple computers. All you've done is debunk these claims with your insistence that quality fans don't matter, or quality RAM doesn't matter. Maybe they don't. That doesn't change the fact that Apple machines use the same parts Dell machines do.

The are more expensive. We just did the excercise of adding ECC memory to you X2 and it increased the price.

The WD drive is more expensive than the seagate in your 7200.8 and is rated to be quieter and support AAM.

I didn't say qaulity RAM doesn't matter. I took offense to you claim that the RAM that came witht he G5 is "generic" and the one in your X2 is name-branded. The G5 uses name branded DIMMS (micron, samsung). Since you claimed to have installed curicial memory in the G5 along with the no name one.

It is even more funny that you made no mention of the brand of memory in the X2 all the article says is CAS2 DDR 400.

X2:
Processor: AMD Athlon X2 4400+ @ 2.2 GHz
Motherboard: DFI LanParty nForce4
Cache Memory: 1MB of full-speed on-die L2 per core
System Memory: 2GB of CAS2 DDR-400 SDRAM
Graphics Card: Gigabyte GeForce 6600GT 128MB
Hard Drive: Seagate 7200.8 250GB SATA
Optical Drive: MSI SATA CD-RW
Power Supply: Seasonic S12 380W
Case: Antec P180
Operating System: Ubuntu AMD64 5.10

Reply Parent Score: 1

japail Member since:
2005-06-30

> All this means what exactly at 4-4-4-12 timings?
> Absolutely nothing!!

The constraints of the processor don't change the status of the brand, which is the whole point of this. The RAM shipped in the PowerMac isn't 'premium' memory, it's just common OEM memory. Do you think I'm suggesting Apple pay $50+ more for memory? No. The cost doesn't match the benefit.

> On rayiner's G5 a cl 3-3-3-8 memory isn't better or
> more reliable.

Well reliability is another matter. It isn't any faster when used there. ECC memory isn't useful at all in his X2 configuration.

> G5 is Good not some cheap generic no name brand as
> you and Rayiner seem to suggest.

It's cheap mediocre memory. It isn't nameless as Rayiner suggested, but I don't really care about what Rayiner suggested. That precisely why I quoted "generic" and provided an appropriate meaning.

> They have no DDR2 533Mhz ECC memory in thier catalog.

I didn't say that they did. I said that they had ECC memory, though they're essentially in a different market segment.

> Not serious companies making serious products for the
> entire computing industry.

Your good friend BMW makes a lot of budget cars. The entire computing industry isn't desktop computers. In fact the computing industry at large doesn't consist of 'premium' products. No aggregate does. That's not premium, that's average. What does your watch need with 800MHz DDR2?

> If you think top end computing is an X2 or pentium
> Dxxx with OCZ or corsair or mucskin DIMMS. I have bad
> news for you about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

HPC has nothing to do with this discussion. That's not even remotely the same market. Buying high-performance desktop memory for anything that require reliability is retarded. Though the processor concern is a little amusing. Multicore Xeons and Opterons will fill far more slots on the Top500 than the PowerMac will.

> Really. You can do multi-bit correction with ECC and
> chip kill. Sun's recently announced UltraSPARC T1's
> memory controller supports quad error correct and
> octal error detect ECC and chipkill.

If you want to pay in latency, cost, and space you can implement all sorts of codes. I'm not sure what that matters to the discussion of the G5 and the Athlon64, since they don't.

> No I knew they had a value brand. I bought mushkin
> DIMMS before remmember.

I think I've been clear-enough about what I've stated that precludes the lack of any process improvements from producing superior products. I think I've been perfectly clear from the onset that 1) You shouldn't compare brands you should compare models 2) If you're going to compare brands, then the brands considered "premium" are not Samsung, Micron, et al 3) The reason they're considered premium are previously outlined

> What value or "quality" is that extra curcial sticker
> adding to the micron DIMM. Nothing? Only naive idiots
> like you think a subsidiary or spin off means quality
> somehow.

None. Crucial isn't a premium brand. The "quality" is solely in Micron shedding its name (as a good supplier in your opinion) for sales. I specifically stated that it wasn't a premium brand. I really hate repeating myself, and I don't like you repeating what I say as if it's original.


> Or Smarter and less gullible than you and you don't
> want to admit it.

I have have a total of 4GB of Kingmax memory (I bet you can't guess who provides the DRAM for those spectacular modules) and probably another 8GB in assorted brands. I don't buy premium memory because it's not important to me. If you think you're smarter than all the more power to you, but given your ignorance, your inability to focus, your reliance on Google queries to make silly comments that don't make any sense in this discussion, your lack of knowledge of this subject, I don't know what you're basing that on. It must be your Sennhisers.

Edited 2005-11-16 20:55

Reply Parent Score: 1

japail Member since:
2005-06-30

I haven't slept in about thirty hours and I have the flu. I haven't even clicked on any of your links for hours, but I've probably been an idiot and an asshole, since interaction in meat space has made that fairly obvious that I'm on a roll. And despite my typical insistence that people not post crap here, I sort of browse my posts and I see probably don't meet my own standards of excellence.

You win. I'm an idiot. I probably haven't been anywhere near as coherent as I thought. I don't really add much value here, and I'm going to leave. I've probably posted a day's worth of complete rambling nonsense. Sad, really.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

The constraints of the processor don't change the status of the brand, which is the whole point of this. The RAM shipped in the PowerMac isn't 'premium' memory, it's just common OEM memory. Do you think I'm suggesting Apple pay $50+ more for memory? No. The cost doesn't match the benefit.

I just don't get where you are explaining he value add of the premium memory here.

Well reliability is another matter. It isn't any faster when used there.

Exactly so what good is the premium memory in the G5?

Your good friend BMW makes a lot of budget cars.

Really name a budget BMW branded model.

The entire computing industry isn't desktop computers.

Now you are talking sense. I can garauntee that nobody but hobbist builders, gaming enthusiasts and overclockers use OCZ, Corsair or Mushkin DIMMs in the majority of the entire computing industry.

In fact the computing industry at large doesn't consist of 'premium' products. No aggregate does. That's not premium, that's average. What does your watch need with 800MHz DDR2?

Finally some more sense. You got is Apple is another manufacturer in the entire computer industry and doesn't target the same people OCZ, mushkin, Corsair, alienware, northwest falcon do. That is a very small segment of the entire industry.

Samsung, micron, Infineon make products for the rest of the industry. Products that go into servers that need 99% uptime. And hence end up in a PowerMac at cl4-4-4-12 for reliablity first and foremost.

HPC has nothing to do with this discussion. That's not even remotely the same market.

HPC is not the only other market. Oh dear... this is going to take long. Have you heard of reliable systems for multibillion $$ buisnesses. HPC is one market out of many. There is a market for mainframes.

Look at BlueGene/L it uses 700Mhz PPC cores. The doesn't use the fast whiz bang enthusiast rig for performance.


Buying high-performance desktop memory for anything that require reliability is retarded.

I am glad you agree. The powermac is designed for reliability hence the ability to use ECC memory. So I guess they sacrificed a little performance for it. But thier customers ( the guy that buy 10s and 100s of PowerMacs for business) sure will appreciate the thought put into reliability.

You as an indivudual probably won't.

Though the processor concern is a little amusing. Multicore Xeons and Opterons will fill far more slots on the Top500 than the PowerMac will.

I am sure IBM openPower boxes will show up they use the same cpu. Infact the BlueGene/L is using a PPC cpu. Guess who makes the G5 aka PPC 970MP.

If you want to pay in latency, cost, and space you can implement all sorts of codes. I'm not sure what that matters to the discussion of the G5 and the Athlon64, since they don't.

It does. Because Apple clearly chose reliability over low latency for the G5. Rayiner chose performance over reliability. Apple makes computers for millions of customers, Rayiner made one for himself. The decision making process is significantly different.


I think I've been clear-enough about what I've stated that precludes the lack of any process improvements from producing superior products. I think I've been perfectly clear from the onset that 1) You shouldn't compare brands you should compare models 2) If you're going to compare brands, then the brands considered "premium" are not Samsung, Micron, et al 3) The reason they're considered premium are previously outlined


So by your rationale even though a value model of Corsair is a premium brand not all thier products are premium.

Ok what is the brand in Rayiner's X2 since it isn't really memtioned in the article. For all you know it is a no name generic brand.

Reply Parent Score: 1