Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 9th Feb 2006 19:11 UTC
Debian and its clones MEPIS, one of the more popular Debian-derived distributions, may be moving in a new direction soon. MEPIS founder Warren Woodford is considering building future MEPIS releases from Ubuntu sources rather than from Debian. SimplyMEPIS 3.4-3, which is scheduled for release today, has been quite a challenge to build, according to Woodford. "It's taking up all my time, fighting the Etch pool... We've had a lot of trouble, because the Debian community has become so active, it's been difficult to get this out, so I'm looking at alternatives to getting out stable releases."
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morgoth
Member since:
2005-07-08

This is exactly why I said Ubuntu was a bad bad thing. Ubuntu will eventually kill off Debian, and any Debian based competitors. Monopolies are always bad for business, whether they're Linux based or not.

Dave

Reply Score: 0

Temcat Member since:
2005-10-18

Could you please enlighten us as to why Ubuntu is a monopoly? :-)

Reply Parent Score: 3

cr8dle2grave Member since:
2005-07-11

1. Ubuntu is not a monopoly by any sane definition.

2. Debian could easily suck some wind from Ubuntu's sails by fixing their broken release policies. Ubuntu is really nothing more than Debian with a release policy appropriate to desktop use.

Reply Parent Score: 5

DeadFishMan Member since:
2006-01-09

2. Debian could easily suck some wind from Ubuntu's sails by fixing their broken release policies. Ubuntu is really nothing more than Debian with a release policy appropriate to desktop use

Well... *I* donīt think that the Debian release policy is broken. Actually, I like their approach of "itīs done when itīs done". It might not matter that much for kids running the latest gimmicks on their computers on their mommaīs basement but it surely is appreciated by the sysadmins around the world and people that use their desktops to work, not play.

Thatīs just one of the aspects where I consider Ubuntu being overhyped. After all, their repositories are nothing more than frozen snapshots from Etch where their developers can do the (admitedly heavy) work on the packages so that they can suit their needs. But what most Ubuntu fans forget is that _this_ work depends on the _heavier_ work done by Etch mantainers and that Debian have much more manpower (over 1000 developers/maintainers last that I heard) than Canonical have at the moment. Ubuntu just takes advantage of the wonderful infrastructure put in place by Debian.

While I have nothing against nor torwards Ubuntu, *I* think that it is a dangerous idea to consider Ubuntu as the base for developping anything related to Linux as a standard since, in my eyes, it is just another fad. If the ISVs coming from other platforms are not targeting RedHat to develop commercial software, then they oughta be targeting Debian. Period. Ubuntu might be good for desktops, Debian is good at everything.

That being said, Iīd like to play a little bit with Kubuntu mainly because it usually is bleeding edge on KDE but before that Iīd like to ask to the Ubuntu-ers if that sudo thing can be changed to a proper root account without breaking too much stuff (I know about sudo -s, but I want a proper root account). Thanks in advance.

(Disclaimer: Iīm a current MEPIS fan/user)

Edited 2006-02-10 06:03

Reply Parent Score: 2

morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Dearie me...comprehension is exceptionally bad today. Read my reply to the other poster. Saves me having to repeat it.

1. Not a monopoly - yet.

2. Debian does not have broken release policies. Slow, yes. But not broken. Please choose your words more carefully. Debian's main issue is that it supports so many arches. imho - too many arches. In reality, only PPC, i386, amd64 and sparc should be supported, the rest should die like the dinosaurs that they are.

Please note that Debian doesn't have millions of dollars donated to it. It does what it does on a much smaller budget than Ubuntu. Money does help. Maybe Mark should have donated a few million to Debian eh?

Dave

Reply Parent Score: 0

sirwally Member since:
2005-07-19

"This is exactly why I said Ubuntu was a bad bad thing. Ubuntu will eventually kill off Debian, and any Debian based competitors."

Please explain? Why is Ubuntu a "bad, bad" thing? If Ubuntu killed off Debian, Debian would still live on as Ubuntu because Ubuntu _is_ Debian. For arguments sake let's say Debian was killed off, and Ubuntu tooks it's place. Why would that be a bad thing in the grand scheme of things? I would assume that most Debian users would then be using Ubuntu (or one of its derivatives) and I don't really see why that would be a bad thing. Perhaps it's just because you don't like Ubuntu because it's popular, and because it is encroaching on Debian's turf. Perhaps I am wrong. However, I see this sort of lame argument so much from the Linux crowd, and it's _really_ sad.

"Wah! My Linux distro is better than yours, and yours is becoming so popular that it threatening the longevity of mine. It sucks! Instead of embracing the more popular distro, I'm going to bite my nose to spite my face and switch to another unknown distro! See how you like that!" Quite frankly, I couldn't give a rats. Use what you want, but believe this -- Linux will _never_ succeed (at least in the desktop world) being so damned fractionalized. I don't know how many distros there are these days, but probably way more than when I last checked, and _way_ more than there should be. I think it would be _far_ more constructive for people to work on existing, popular distros than to create their own, because unless they do something _really_ special, it will only ever be used by a relative handful of users, and effectively go nowehere. Sure, it was a good learning experience, and probably a lot of fun, and that's great, but at some point the less popular distros have got to die out and allow the more popular ones to live on.

It will all work out in the end.

"Monopolies are always bad for business, whether they're Linux based or not."

Monopolies are _not_ always bad for business. Monopolies are bad for business when they start abusing their monopoly position to better their position at the cost of their competitors. That is why there are laws against that sort of business practice. Making monopolies flat-out illegal (because they are a "bad, bad thing" would be insane. This would stifle growth and innovation because companies would be in fear of becoming so popular and inadvertently crushing all their competition because their product was better, so putting themselves in the position of being a monopoly.

Reply Parent Score: 5

MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

For arguments sake let's say Debian was killed off, and Ubuntu tooks it's place. Why would that be a bad thing in the grand scheme of things?

Yes, for those who use architectures supported by Debian but not by Ubuntu. Debian also officially supports a lot more packages than does Ubuntu. Debian (stable) is also a lot more stable, something business users care about. Ubuntu isn't exactly positioned to take over Debian's server segment. And you know there would be some people who wouldn't be happy with being beholden to Canonical, though the creation of the Ubuntu Foundation should help.

Anyway, Ubuntu does not have the same focus that Debian does, so in the end Debian croaking and being replaced by Ubuntu would be imho a loss.

Reply Parent Score: 3

g2devi Member since:
2005-07-09

Have you considered that part of the reason Etch is changing so quickly is because Ubuntu is feeding changes into Debian, and this in turn is making it easier for Debian maintainers to keep up to date?

Ubuntu's success doesn't mean the death of Debian any more than Fedora means the death of RHEL or openSUSE means the death of SUSE Enterprise. Quite the contrary. These bleeding branch distributions provide an important role in experimenting and stabilizing new technologies so that the old workhorses can be solid.

If you're going to deploy and be responsible for 1000 desktops, the last thing you want to do is to upgrade every 6 months or risk a supposedly minor bug shutting down your company. You may want the flash and glitz of the bleeding edge distros for your own desktop, but when you're head is on the line, you'll likely go for the low risk boringly stable. That's what Debian, RHEL, and SUSE enterprise are.

There's no way the bleeding edgers are a threat.

Reply Parent Score: 5

morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Quote: "Have you considered that part of the reason Etch is changing so quickly is because Ubuntu is feeding changes into Debian, and this in turn is making it easier for Debian maintainers to keep up to date? "

Sure. Some stuff is going back into Debian. You're trying to imply that all of the Etch changes are a sole result of Ubuntu. That's a load of codswallop. Keep dreaming your rosy Ubuntu glasses.

Quote: "There's no way the bleeding edgers are a threat."

Of course not, since on the workplace desktop, most users will have very cut down desktops for a variety of reasons. Having the latest and greatest in that type of scenario was never going to be a real issue, even before the release of Ubuntu.

Dave

Reply Parent Score: 0

historyb Member since:
2005-07-06

Ubuntu is very bad, I knew it from when it first came out and all of a sudden became the golden boy of distros. Here were Mepis and PCLinuxOS that were around for longer and ubuntu comes in and sweeps the community off it's collective feet.

Now even warren is running to them. Well no matter I use PCLinuxOS now.

Reply Parent Score: -1

AndyJ Member since:
2005-06-30

I'm sorry but what kind of subjective, unsubstantiated, unexplained, biased crap is "Ubuntu is very bad"??? I also have used Ubuntu since before the first version was released. It revitalised my interest in Linux after being put off by Red Hat. I since moved to Mepis and tried a bunch of others but have both (K)ubuntu and Mepis running on various boxes. (K)ubuntu supports my AMD64 machine nicely and Mepis runs good on my other x86 boxes. I like the cleanness of Kubuntu and the comprehensiveness of Mepis.

Now tell my just why hundreds of satisfied Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Edubuntu users are so dramatically wrong in thinking these distros are so good, and why in fact, they are just plain "very bad"???

I have seen so much FUD being spread around Ubuntu: from people who just "know" that Mark Shuttleworth has evil, monopolistic ulterior motives to those who are just plain upset that Ubuntu threatens to bring some stability and popularity to the Linux world on a scale previously unseen. There are Linux purists of some kind who despise the fact that Ubuntu brings Linux within the grasp of "average Joe" users removing the uber-geek mystique (although I would argue that Mepis and other distros also have their share of non-techie users).

It is absolutely high time that people who claim to support Linux stopped encouraging the separation between distros and started realising that keeping distros apart in small pockets all pursuing different aims and agendas will never be good for Linux.

And if people are so paranoid and naive as to think that a single person could wipe out the combined efforts of the many contributors, testers, users, in short the whole community that makes up the Linux world, then fine, go ahead and have your anti-Ubuntu, anti-Mark Shuttleworth witch-hunts. But the rest of us will continue to live in the real world and hope that increased cooperation and sharing of resources between distros will continue to improve Linux in all it's various guises.

Reply Parent Score: 5

d0nk3y Member since:
2005-12-15

You can't kill a way of thinking or a philosophy. That's my understanding of what Debian is - it's not some 'company that can go under' or anything.

(BTW, I use Ubuntu because it's Debian based and easy to maintain. That and it has most things I need on a single CD installation - and it works for me.)

Reply Parent Score: 1

morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

It works for you, but it doesn't work for me. I don't have to like Ubuntu, and I most certainly don't have to support it. People love fads. Ubuntu is a fad, just as Gentoo was 4 or so years ago.

Dave

Reply Parent Score: 0

steviant Member since:
2006-01-11

Ever heard of Chicken Little?

Reply Parent Score: 1

morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

And your off topic reply's point is? Amazing how an off topic reply doesn't get moderated down.

Dave

Reply Parent Score: 1

da_Chicken Member since:
2006-01-01

Ever heard of Chicken Little?

Oh, yeah. :-D

Reply Parent Score: 1