We need to talk about Windows priorities as a product. And I am saying this as someone who wants Windows to succeed – it’s a great OS that, despite it’s naysayers, is still one of the best when it comes to backwards compatibility and richness of functionality. I mean, I can literally run a game written for Windows 95 on Windows 11 without major issues (no, I am not going to open the SafeDisc can of worms this time). I can’t do that on macOS or Linux boxes reliably, and yet Windows is doing a-OK with this task. That being said, I am disappointed to see the direction that the OS is taking lately, and it feels like a very odd misplacement of priorities, especially given the advances that other Microsoft products are going through.
A detailed post outlining all the problems on Windows – problems that are only getting worse. Using Windows these days feels like visiting Times Square in New York – it’s a cacophony of lights and colours and advertisements and noise that, while an experience worth having, I didn’t want to stay for much longer than a few minutes. It doesn’t have much to offer besides the lights and colours and advertisements and noise, because those are the very point of Times Square. There’s nothing else of value there.
Windows is the same – it isn’t an operating system designed for its users, it’s an operating system designed to increase ad and services revenue. The people in charge at Windows clearly aren’t the people who care about a coherent, welcoming, pleasing, thorough, and well-crafted experience – it’s the advertisement bozos and cloudbros who run the Windows department.
And that’s sad.
I don’t know about Times Square, but what Windows offers is being the gatekeeper to cutting edge hardware and the largest software library ever. Want them? You need Windows.
Plus the fact hardware on Windows is either officially supported or not, while on Linux it’s more of a “whatever” situation (yes, even with hardware that’s in the tree, just look at the latest breakages around suspend on AMD GPUs).
Aye… I can agree to that. But you see, Microsoft is scared of thing called ChromeOS (which is available to OEMs for free), so they want to eventually go the same route of giving out the OS for free as a loss-leader and then making their money via commissions advertisements. But in traditional Microsoft fashion, they doing all that “monetization” in the most crass and annoying way imaginable. I never understood why the paying customers have to be subjected to that (and by “paying” I mean customers who have bought a boxed version of Windows and have paid the full price, not the Dells and HPs who pay next-to-nothing for their OEM license). I mean, dear Redmond, just give us an “Ultimate” version available as a boxed copy (or a paid download) that will have all that junk removed. That version already exists in the form of LTSC anyway, it’s just that you have to buy it from grey-market key resellers to have it.
kurkosdr, I’m surprised that we’re 17 posts-in this thread so far and not one of them thought to address this comment of yours:
—
“…what Windows offers is being the gatekeeper to cutting edge hardware and the largest software library ever. Want them? You need Windows.”
—
Apple’s computers are known for having significantly superior build-quality… and now coupled with M-series processors Apple has officially taken the “cutting-edge” title that was either genuinely had or at least largely perceived to be.
With regard to software, you do have a point however even then with some serious caveats. Mac software may not yet delve into some specialized industries that Windows is immersed within, however for all mainstream (and yet still many specialized industries), there is are typically good options, equal/same options, and often-times even superior ones.
I think Windows only real advantage anymore is games. Because iPad games are fully compatible on M-series Macs, Apple is even chipping away at that. MacOS/iOS compatibility effectively doubles the marketshare for Apple-ecosystem software, so we can expect game developers to increase accordingly.
I was surprised at the both your obliviousness to the genuine threat Apple’s ecosystem poses as well as your over-emphasis for the one ChromeOS does. Chrome does pose a threat albeit to only in a few Microsoft strongholds and even then only on the low-end of those markets.
Frankly, games are Microsoft’s only real, remaining, undisputed advantage these days and even they have figured that out. It’s why they recently made such a major play in buying up major gaming studios. I’ve made this point to other Windows users and I’m always surprised at the aforementioned obliviousness they share you with you as well as the inevitable realization that their platform is nowhere near as secure as they assumed. The same platforms they’ve written off in the past for an assumption of being inconsequential have been eating Microsoft’s lunch for a while now.
haus,
https://www.tomsguide.com/us/ipad-bendgate-apple-quality-control,news-28901.html
Alfman,
I said “computers” even though iPads DO have a superior build quality… especially since every other tablet will CURRENTLY bend in half with little effort
oh….and also
“December 20, 2018*”
haus,
Yes ***computers*** were included too.
Oh I see, you meant “Apple’s computers are known for having significantly superior build-quality since December 20, 2018”
“Apple design flaw STILL UNFIXED FOUR YEARS LATER!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfwKXjl5vJU
https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/09/15/apple-hit-with-lawsuit-claiming-m1-macbook-screens-are-defective
You finding a flaw doesn’t invalidate my point.
You using a four-year-old flaw in an effort to establish a point…. does however help validate mine though.
haus,
It kind of does though.
I’m happy to oblige with links validating your point 🙂 You need to recheck your math though, the video is from 17months ago…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfwKXjl5vJU
3:33 “Even the new models designed right now are still put together with the 50 volt power line right next to the CPU data line.”
And the M1 screen issues are for laptops that are also less than 2 years old…
https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/09/15/apple-hit-with-lawsuit-claiming-m1-macbook-screens-are-defective
If you go to apple boards you’ll see thousands of people complaining about quality issues with apple’s new products.
“Macbook Air M1 camera quality”
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252303587
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253181534
Just yesterday…
“Apple M1 Mac Mini Has MAJOR Bluetooth Issues – What’s causing it?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6oKsozPZUI&t=2s
https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/11/m1-mac-bluetooth-problems/
Thankfully for users the bluetooth bugs ended up being fixable through software updates several weeks later, but it does seem substandard for a trillion dollar company to fail at Q/A this badly in the first place, n’est pas?
Oh well, such is life, haha.
Your conflating “build quality” with “durability”.
Apple’s machines have fantastic build quality. The fit and finish, quality of materials, lack of out-of-box defects for the most part (due to extensive QA testing) all contribute to the fantastic build quality of their devices.
The durability of their devices, however, has always been in question. From iPhones that shatter when dropped on soft floors, to iPads that fold in half if you sneeze on them, to keyboards that can’t handle a bit of dust, all contribute to the general opinion that Apple products are generally not very durable.
The123king,
Well, we can defend weaknesses and flaws up to a point, but when we see many customers complaining about those issues then it should start to become a red flag. This isn’t apple specific in any way but when I’m looking at reviews and see so many owners complaining about the same problems, then I give them credence and adjust my expectations accordingly. This is good advice in general even though fans don’t always want to hear it. Many loved brands have experienced lapses of quality over the years and I don’t think apple is an exception.
https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/273480-apple-wont-replace-broken-macbook-pro-keyboards-with-latest-model
As a society we’ve broadly traded off build quality for cheap Chinese components that are good enough, but often not that great. Even premium bands are affected because they always want to earn more profits :-/
Alfman,
You’re still getting your terms mixed up. A Ferrari has fantastic build quality, but it’s not very durable. Drive it down a country lane and you’ll take $1000’s off it’s value from chipped bumpers and broken trim. On the other hand, a Lada has awful build quality, with panel gaps you could stick your arm in, and trim pieces that fall off all the time. But you can drive one through the roughest terrain in Siberia and the thing will just keep on trucking.
In the same vane as the Ferrari, Apple have great build quality, with tight tolerances and well machined parts. But at the same time, if you drop some crumbs on your keyboard, it’s probably going to break it.
I get your point, but i have to be pedantic about terms, because build quality and durability are two wildly different things.
The123king,
I don’t think these are strictly exclusive. A keyboard that doesn’t last under normal use can be considered both not very durable AND bad quality. Nevertheless even going by that logic, apple still sometimes puts out products that are endemic of low quality and I’ve linked to examples of this above. How did they not notice the camera was worse or that bluetooth functionality was so glitchy and broken? Those are things that should have been caught by Q/A and yet for whatever reason were allowed to ship that way.
The problem with Apple is simple…they always find a way to royally screw you on the hardware. Look at the new Apple display, a $2000 monitor that literally lacks a feature monitors have had since the fricking 1980s, the ability to replace the damn cord if your cat chews it up…argh!
Trust me I’ve got customers that are total Macidiots and the amount of multiple thousand dollar E-waste they generated because Apple won’t support their own gear after a few years (and make it such a royal PITA nobody else wants to fix it either) is astounding. Say what you want about Windows but I can take a bloody C2D based Thinkpad and get the keyboard or screen replaced for sub $50 USD, good damn luck getting a first gen Macbook Air repaired for less than assraping prices.
Do they make nice hardware? Sure…but so does BMW and like BMW the second the company no longer supports it throw it away because it costs too damn much to fix, the same goes for Apple at least here in the states.
Where is the upvote button ?
MS Windows, the OS with about 300% more of end user desktops than any other rival, in fact 300% more than it’s rivals combined, allegedly hasn’t yet succeeded!
That is basically just the last year, if we look historically and include devices up to a decade old MS Windows becomes even more dominant!
I’m all for variety, because from my perspective variety offers some security, but even I know that ship has sailed.
If we are gonna talk about pet peeves in Windows? Boy do I got one,p*sses me off so damn much I’d love to go to Redmond and smack the moron who thought this was a good idea upside the dang head!
Now the ads at least in windows 10 is easy enough to disable, but if you don’t want a driver updated because later version are crap? well good luck buddy because Mommy MSFT gonna break your system whether you like it or not! I have an RX580 (not spending more than $300 for a damn GPU and these days that would get me a card worse than what I have) and on driver 21.82? works like a dream, get above 100 FPS and can even record at a solid 60FPS using Relive…as long as I do NOT update the driver, if I do? The FPS goes right down the toilet and give up recording unless you think VBR with stuttering so bad it looks like a slideshow is viewable!
But whereas with earlier versions of Windows you could simply tell Windows Update “I don’t want that” and hide the driver update guess what? There is NO WAY that I have found to keep Windows Update from FORCING bad drivers onto your system, none! I have tried Group Policies, I have tried Windows Update troubleshooter hiding the update, even tried multiple registry hacks to try to get the damn thing to just STOP IT…nope, if I allow Windows Update to run? It will bork my system every.single.time. by giving me the trash driver i do not want!
So while the article complains about it trying to rip off the Chrome OS model, I’d say its more the Apple centric “We think you are a moron and we know what is best” because I’m finding more and more things that used to be a simple “turn this button off” setting that ever since Windows 10 requires reg hacks and GP editing and even then might work, might not, because God Forbid someone not want the default way of doing things…argh! Sorry but this one has been driving me batshit and I really needed to vent, I mean is having a simple “No I don’t want the damn update” button in windows that actually works so damn much to ask for? really?
bassbeast,
Welcome to the future of computing. We know what’s best for you and soon enough you will accept it. You don’t need to block our changes because our innovation is best for all consumers, we swear! 🙁
Yup and short of running something like NLite and hacking the OS to pieces GLWT when it comes to just getting the damn thing to DO WHAT ITS TOLD, argh!
BTW as a little FYI to those who use AMD GPUs after spending fricking WEEKS trying to get windows to just STFU and stop giving me bad drivers I FINALLY found a fix! You basically have to completely abandon company supported drivers and go third party, but since switching to the Amernime drivers? Been solid as a fricking rock and I get BETTER performance than what I was getting on stock. Oh and if you have a GPU that has been abandoned by AMD? Not a problem they have modded drivers going back to the old terrascale arch! Link below if anybody else wants to get windows to just STOP IT and leave your GPU alone!
https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/3rd-party-driver-amernime-zone-radeon-insight-22-2-2-whql-driver-pack-validate-signature-22-3-1.436611/
Oh yeah, Nlite ! Damn I used this one !
Huh. Good to know.
Before going for that, I’d probably have seen if something like this solved the problem:
1. Switch Windows to boot in “I’m a driver developer and need to test my creations, so allow unsigned drivers” mode.
2. Strip the Authenticode signatures from the working AMD drivers so a verification failure doesn’t cause problems.
3. Patch the drivers to report a version newer than anything likely to be distributed. (If the version metadata is stored in the PE
VERSIONINFOresource, then there are freeware GUI editors for that.)You can’t do #1 because that will trip anticheat software in games, haven’t tried #2 or #3 but I wouldn’t be surprised if those would as well. the Amernime guys use Radeon Pro as the basis which for some damn reason doesn’t seem to freak the anticheat software, but then again it says in the installer that they specifically made sure it wouldn’t trip the anticheats so whatever they are doing? Seems to work.
And then you run Windows 11 and start scratching your head, thinking: “How could they screw up things that were working good for the last 20+ years?”
And people are still wondering why I cherish XP SP3 or 7 SP1 ? Because those are the last of their kind that allowed users’ control over the OS, not the other way around.
Kochise,
Indeed, it’s been a gradual shift. They can’t take away too many owner rights at once without facing stiff backlash, but by phasing in anti-features slowly it becomes normalized. Even most of the ardent holdouts begrudgingly fall to the pressure of the network effects once old versions loose support.
Wow…thanks for making me sad Kochise by making me remember XP. Ahh XP x64, that OS was sooooo damn good! Solid as granite, allowed me to rock a quad core (2 dual core Xeons) when most were still on single cores, could take just oodles of cheapo ECC memory, ohh it was just so damn nice. and hey it just got the hell out of the way and did what it was told!
Win 7 was nice but you could never get it as close to bare metal as you could with XP X64 but at least it also did what it was told…then came Windows “Hey did you know tablets are a thing? and we don’t call programs that anymore, they are apps cuz we want to be like apple. Did we mention we have an appstore?” 8 and its been going downhill ever since.
Yup, that’s why to me Windows ends at 7, not 10 or 11. I have to use those on a daily basis because “this is what you get nowadays” but my XP and 7 machines are still running and kicking ass.
I used to fine tune my 2000 and XP distros using nLite. Such a clever application to build the most perfect and dedicated installation discs. Nothing as such with 7 or 10. Bi annual “updates” breaking things and only your eyes to cry the loss of your personal files.
Backup is everything.
As long as I update the drivers using the AMD website when they send me an email and uplessI install theirs windows installs it’s one in a few days and FPS tanks.
Of course you have an older card than mine but all of them suck using the windows drivers. For reference I have a 5700, it was £311 back in sane times though. I’d have probably upgraded by now if the 6700 were not over double that (not even mentioning anything else!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YDy6ygIjfY (You’re Too OLD to Game!)
I’m afraid even the AMD drivers from their website post 21.82? Take a big steaming dump on the RX5xx cards. the FPS dies, recording becomes a slideshow, its just God awful so its one of them “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” kinda deals.
But you should try the modded drivers I linked to above as they have one for the Navi GPUs and from what I’ve seen everyone is getting more solid FPS from the modded drivers than the stock (really not a shock considering AMD has never been known to have the greatest drivers) and it will tell WU to take a flying leap so YOU get to decide when the damn driver updates!
I’ve been running them for a couple days now and I’m tickled pink, my FPS is rock solid and even Relive works a hell of a lot better so I’ll stick with the modded ones and AMD can keep their buggy shite drivers.
Great article, from an IT support/management point of view it’s the same. So many scripts and systems to remove the crap out of windows and try to get them to still work as a business system and not a facebook OS. (Windows Enterprise alleviates this a little, however a lot of small companies (100-200) use Windows Pro and it’s a hard fight on those systems).
Things like Print nightmare issue, the issue of the January updates breaking DC’s causing them to reboot is all giving more and more strength of looking at alternative systems. I dont think it’s going to be overnight but i have seen a lot of companies introduce more and more mac’s into the workplace, Windows is still dominant but going back 10 years mac’s would have been seen outside design/media agencies.
For me Microsoft needs to refocus on Windows 11 on performance, stability outlined in the article above, they are the moment seem to think that throwing everything into azure is enough for business, but what OS are we going to use to access the systems in Azure, Windows is becoming less compelling.
REM2000,
Honestly most businesses just want windows to be a non-moving target. They’d much rather avoid adware, not being forced into microsoft online accounts, not being beta testers for new GUI paradigms that nobody was asking for and few even want. They just want to get work done and need the support that makes windows usable minus the anti-features that MS seems to insist on.
They won’t change their priorities because they don’t have a decent competitor. The fact they continue to get away with these things is the proof itself that there isn’t one.
dark2,
Windows users may say there’s no decent competitor, but that kind of statement and opinion is completely relative. A lot of mac users may not like something about apple but say there’s no decent competitor for macos. Linux users might say there’s no decent competitor for linux. That’s the thing, people who like one OS over another will almost universally prefer to keep using their preferred OS.
I personally choose linux. I know it’s strengths and limitations and that’s what’s best for me. Does it have problems that annoy me? Absolutely, but “there’s no decent competitor for linux”. On the left there’s apple intentionally making computers less repairable and crawling towards what may be the eventuality of a walled garden for macs. To say nothing of their prices and their inability to do cuda work. On the right there’s microsoft pushing unwanted adware and forcing unwanted features into windows. BSDs are more consistent than linux while still getting much needed independence from the BS of the corporate world, but they have even less support than linux.
The reality is there are alternatives and all of them have their fans, but they all have legitimate cons too. Everyone has to make a choice among different imperfect options. For better or worse, most people end up with the monopoly being the path of least resistance.
“I personally choose linux”
That’s nice and all, but do you realize you seem to be responding to all these criticisms of desktop Linux in order to reinforce your own rejection of reality? You’re pretty blatantly changing the subject away from Windows or Linux, and squarely making the debate about yourself.
dark2,
Umm, that’s because my opinion IS about me in the exact same way that your opinion is about you. I was pointing out why your logic was relative to your opinion.
Nevertheless you do highlight a difference between you and I: You have a problem with users who choose linux, but I don’t have a problem with users who choose windows. If windows is better for you then that’s great use windows! I am happy that you are happy. But the opposite doesn’t appear to be true, you become irritated over when people have a different subjective opinion than you do. I feel this endless rift between the two worlds is completely unnecessary.
It may be futile but I actively try to get everyone on the same page respecting each other’s choices. Note that with you I’ve been trying to convince you to respect that linux is best for some users, meanwhile with Geck I’ve been trying to convince him that windows is best for other users. This is such a simple concept and yet in both cases neither of you want to give any credibility to the other side. You both feel compelled to declare the other side wrong instead of respecting that people have differing needs and preferences.
So tell me, how can I convince you to be less judgemental of and be happy for those who find that linux be better for them?
I once had a coworker that admitted Linux sucked and primarily used it because he had a bad experience with Microsoft. His opinion was realistic and respectable. You on the other hand are going full religious zealot on every comment here and need to take a break. Does it matter if a black box like a router “runs Linux?” Nope, you could technically build it with only preset logic gates and it doesn’t matter to the end customer what’s inside. “Lots of people like Linux.” Yeah, difficult people that like the status quo of it being difficult to use make up most of them unfortunately. That or people in this kind of echo chamber that truly believe you’ll never have to use terminal, edit config files, etc. still easily disproven by looking at new user help forums. The last issue I saw was a kernel update randomly changed the audio frequencies thus causing speakers to only produce static noises. Only fixable through config files, which probably can’t be edited without using a terminal to get admin privileges. desktop Linux will always be a death by a thousands cuts experience like this, so be more like my coworker and admit it’s a terrible experience, and you get more religious fulfillment out of Linux than practical use out of it.
dark2,
You’ve got that backwards actually. I’ve consistently stood up for people deciding for themselves what is best for them (regardless of the OS they choose). Your accusation that I’m a religious zealot doesn’t hold any water. Many people like windows and honestly that’s fine by me, but you seem to be in denial that linux really is the best choice for many of us. Millions of people are already using it on the desktop.
Linux will never be a desktop competitor because its lack of a stable ABI makes it hell to support, hell even Linus Torvalds himself has software he supports that works on Windows and Mac but NOT Linux because he says its too much a moving target.
And if the guy that literally invented the thing won’t support his own software on the platform? That should tell ya something.
bassbeast,
I agree it should have a stable ABI, but that doesn’t mean lots of people aren’t using it on the desktop today in addition to all the chromebooks, mobiles, routers, set-top boxes, etc.
I don’t really follow Linus all that closely, can you provide a link so we’re on the same page?
@bassbeast
Linux, Git, Subsurface … which one exactly can’t you use under Linux? Don’t be ignorant. Don’t make some claims just because you read them somewhere. Rather try GNU/Linux instead and tell others after. What supposedly doesn’t work for you, due to “unstable ABI”.
Uh huh…so Linus fricking Torvalds himself is full of shite, is he?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc
Maybe you should stop being a religious zealot.
@bassbeast
The gist of that video is it should be possible to pack your application for Linux once and for it to after work on most Linux distributions. The video was made around a decade back. In that video an application Subsurface is mentioned. Now go to the Subsurface application home page and click on the Download. What you will find over there right under Linux section in 2022 is a Snap package and an AppImage.
As fo r priorities,
MSFT should not focus on the Desktop OS anymore. They should focus on O365 and Azure as it’s their cashcow now. The Desktop OS has gone or is going to Linux and Apple. Forcing Ads into the Operating environment, especially if you paid for it, will force MSFt out of the OS market AFAIK now, it’s only in test phase. Just have a look at Canonical and Ubuntu when they forced Amazon into the Dtop default build.
As fo r priorities,
MSFT should not focus on the Desktop OS anymore. They should focus on O365 and Azure as it’s their cashcow now. The Desktop OS has gone or is going to Linux and Apple. Forcing Ads into the Operating environment, especially if you paid for it, will force MSFt out of the OS market AFAIK now, it’s only in test phase. Just have a look at Canonical and Ubuntu when they forced Amazon into the Dtop default build.
IMHO until GNU/Linux market share on desktop is at 1% and Firefox market share is nearing that. Until that changes significantly. Until then for sure people have a right to express their opinion. Regarding Windows. But beyond that they didn’t really earn the right to be taken seriously.
@Geck
You are absolutely correct. My comment on the Desktop market was forward thinking at best. I’m in actuality, not a zealot for Linux or Apple. Not even Microsoft. The bottom line is, at least in Westernized society, “Money Talks”. That’s even evident in the open source community. Look at Nessus and later on OpenVAS for example. Another example is CentOS and Redhat.
Back to the Desktop, Desktops are only fraction of the Personal Computing market now. That being said, Android(Linux) is on top of that market, and at a close second place, Apple’s iOS(BSD). The desktop is mostly used these days in commercial business. Not the home/personal space. Justimagine your productivity if you’re inundated by Ads, while you work. or in the not too distant future, ads are served from Windows Update servers themselves, as oppossed to akamai, doubleclick, google, etc. That would render most L2 firewalls useless to blocking that. Of course Microsoft offers OS offerigs, based on either your tier of service, (ie: Home/Pro/Enterprise). But would that justify the price per unit personally? or. Professionally?
Geck,
We have OS-extremists on either side accusing the other of not deserving to be taken seriously, but that isn’t helpful. We need to speak up for all consumers, not just those who choose linux. Saying “they didn’t really earn the right to be taken seriously” is an elitist statement that is more off putting than anything. The fight against corporate oppression can not be won by linux users alone, which as you point out is a tiny fraction of the market. We need to voice the common interests of all consumers.
@Alfman
If you will read the whole article and especially the “Conclusion” section. The “Conclusion” is correct. To improve the current situation the only thing one can do is to start using GNU/Linux on desktop. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.
Geck,
I’m already using linux, so in your eyes doesn’t that make me correct too? We’re not “correct” or better than anyone else for using linux. I’m happy to have the author join the linux community if he chooses to, but notice how his attitude is the opposite of yours. His message is that he hopes redmond will turn the ship around. He hopes to make a difference if enough people echo his sentiment. Note that he is not talking down to his windows-using peers saying they cannot be taken seriously and he’s not accusing them of using smoke and mirrors. He is being genuine, and that shows. I think this is a lot more effective at calling for change than pompously dictating what’s best for others. Freedom of choice is great but it also means that we have to respect everyone’s right to choose for themselves.
When it comes to operating systems, most people just want to get on with life, they’re not looking to join a cult. Attitude matters and sometimes I don’t think people realize how pretentious they come across and just how offputting that is. Respect goes a long way in earning trust.
Long story short, I don’t object to your opinion Geck, but I do think you need to work on your messaging. You’ll be more convincing if you don’t alienate people first.
@Alfman
Until GNU/Linux on desktop is at 1% and Firefox is nearing that. Until then what you wrote is just smoke and mirrors. In the end it doesn’t really matter all that much if the guy is genuine or not. If he genuinely won’t do anything about it. As for your other observation. Personally i am OK it we mandate usage of GNU/Linux on desktop in some form. To reach significantly higher market share. I don’t have problems with that. This likely should already be done years back.
Geck,
The world is a lot bigger than just linux. and although you can choose to limit your world view to Linux/FF, that is small minded. Ultimately you don’t get to say what is best for others.
Then you are no better than the corporations pushing their own antifeatures. This mentality where you feel entitled to overrule people’s preferences even if you think it’s for their own good is exactly the mentality of a dictator. People deserve to make their own choices. We need to stop the tactics and unfair advantages that monopolies & duopolies use to harm competition.
@Alfman
I will just repeat what you said. You call people small minded, claiming they are limited, dictators, claiming they support monopolies, unfair advantages, harm competition … Under a Microsoft Windows discussion.
Geck,
Limiting your world view is small minded though. I can’t agree with you that “we mandate usage of GNU/Linux on desktop in some form”, how would that even work? Maybe this is naive, but just because microsoft and apple are guilty of anti-competitive behavior doesn’t mean I want to see linux go down that path too. I’m strongly against coercion tactics regardless of who’s behind it.
@Alfman
For starters lets say to be mandatory for every third computer in public sector, schools, libraries … to run GNU/Linux on desktop for the period of 10 years. And all software provided for it to run and be interoperable with top GNU/Linux distributions. Like Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch. This would have some meaningful effects. Instead of being aware of the problems and not doing anything meaningful about it. In addition it would likely resolve all the problems you listed above. Regarding Windows.
Geck,
I’d like to see more linux in schools (and other operating systems) too, but I’m not comfortable with it being forced upon them.
What may be happening in some cases is that donations to schools come with vendor strings attached, and that’s a conflict of interest. I don’t know if there’s a way to have financial neutrality such that schools cannot be pressured by companies.
I don’t mind initiatives to promote linux so long as it increases choice and freedom. Removing the barriers to linux = excellent, forcing people to use linux = bad in the same way that forcing them to use windows = bad.
@Alfman
That is too idealistic. In the end most of the changes are forced. For example when we will really start doing something to preserve the environment and for it to have some meaningful effect. There is a very big chance you won’t like it and might be compelled to fight it. At least up to some degree. Bottom line GNU/Linux on desktop in 2022 at 1% and Firefox is nearing that. And at the same time knowing and being aware of the oppressing issues on the other sides. The very first thing to do is to substantially increase GNU/Linux on desktop and Firefox share. The rest is just smoke and mirrors and won’t have any meaningful effect. In contrary as things will only get worse.
Geck,
1) If you think operating systems ought to be imposed by force, then you’d be no better than those you are replacing.
2) Historically battles of force reward the incumbents and not the little guys..
If your plan to increase market-share involves mandating what people are allowed to do then count me out. I feel strongly that we need to advocate for change by demanding laws be fair, antitrust enforcement to open up the market, and then striving to be better ourselves. But at no point do I want to endorse a policy of coercion. If you do though I guess we have no choice but to disagree.
@Alfman
I feel that in 2022 and at least in western societies it’s in general accepted that introducing a mandatory quota rule is a reasonable approach in regards to resolving underlying oppressing issues. As for some people not liking it in regards to some area. Well, they in the end should learn to deal with it. As that is the whole point. And as said when we will really start doing something to preserve the environment. Instead of the usual blah, blah, blah … Rest assured a whole lot of people will for sure complain. At least for a while.
Geck,
You may not care about the oppression as long as your not the one being oppressed, but we’re going to have to disagree on this. I still think this was productive since we have a clear understanding of where and why we fundamentally disagree.
The irony is that the most popular Linux desktops are those that are the most “Windows” like, for my own sphere of influence my preference is to supply users with Mint or something similar, because on average it can be configured to deliver an end user experience they are most familiar with!
The bulk of my Linux users, need the Linux part less and less, the bulk of the working day is still in the GUI, and especially now WSL is available the demand for Linux is actually diminishing.
It’s of course not just Mint, but other flavours that desire a greater share of the market place specifically develop features to make the desktop more and more Windows like, the situation mimics society. Lots of complaints or demands to be treated as an individual, to be different, but an underlying desire to be one of the same or part of the crew. Such a contradiction!
I’m not sure if I should laugh or cry!
Linux is more backwards compatible than Windows is. Sorry to burst your bubble Microsoft Fans. I’m using Windows 11 for Work, and I have to literally install Linux and WINE, just to run Cisco Unified Contact Center eXpress 10 editor for Windows. Since Windows 11 is incapable of installing/running it (likely 32-bit java on 64-bit windows or some other weird java thing) But 64-bit Linux running WINE handles it fine. In my experience WINE is more backwards compatible than Windows is, and has been for a while now. My ex-housemate couldn’t run Command and Conquer Generals and Zero Hour on Windows Vista/7. I had no problems running it in WINE first try 10 years ago. I can probably find more examples. The thing is these measuring contests are pointless with VMs. What we really need now is just better VM support for Windows 95/98se and Voodoo2 emulation etc. It’s the 95/98/Glide transition period that sucks on all platforms.
@Darkmage
Hi,
Wouldn’t that backwards compatibility open the door for old malware compatibility? Remember, Windows 9x was haven for PC Herpes.
spiderdroid,
Running windows malware under wine is not a new idea…
https://www.linux.com/news/running-windows-viruses-wine/
It turns out that it’s a bit difficult to run most windows malware on linux because linux is more secure than windows was back then but also because the infection and escalations vectors were windows specific.
Wine programs runs under the same process security as linux programs, so in principal malicious windows binaries specifically targeting wine should have the same capabilities as malicious native binaries targeting linux. In practice this means compromising the user account but not compromising the system without a privilege escalation vulnerability.
It’s also worth noting that snaps and flatpacks provide further isolation over basic UID checks. I am an advocate for process sandboxing.
…though, given how malware-like some copy-protection and anti-cheat code gets, Valve funding Codeweavers to improve game compatibility is likely also going to improve malware compatibility… not to mention that Wine’s ability to fake having a Windows kernel has improved by leaps and bounds since 2005.
I wish they’d seen what p7zip thought of it. Back around 2005, Info-ZIP’s support for non-DEFLATE compression algos and other advanced or niche features was spotty at best and may have been nonexistent. (It’s been a long time.)
ssokolow,
Maybe there’s some malware that isn’t working because the win32 API isn’t implemented correctly under wine, but it still seems that a lot of malware would fail because it’s trying to infect bits of windows that don’t have a reason to exist under wine.
You are right about the DRM. It’s much more likely to break because it can share the behavior of malware and may even try to inject a kernel payload. I found two links where codeweavers talks about DRM and how software can run fine once the DRM is disabled.
https://www.codeweavers.com/support/wiki/mac/faq/cxgamesdrm
https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/tips/evil-genius/patching-and-drm
I don’t know about the legality of it, but it wouldn’t be the first time legitimate users prefer cracked versions because the DRM doesn’t work.
Obviously I don’t need to tell you, but the advice of not running untrusted executables still applies with WINE 🙂
Uh huh…go try to load the last released AMD Terrascale driver on Ubuntu, I’ll wait…whats that, they don’t work? How about Loki games for Linux released in the mid 2000s…oh those don’t work either? Meanwhile the fricking Vista Terrascale drivers work just fine in windows 10, no tweaks required. Oh and before someone chimes in with the Terrascale GPUs and APUs “work” in Linux…no they don’t, what you get is a glorified VESA driver. No hardware MPG support, no hardware accelerated anything, it will turn a flagship 6990 into a simple display out, no actual GPU functionality.
I’m sorry but even Linus Torvalds refuses to support some of his own software because its lack of a stable ABI makes it hell to support, thats his own words, if you think its more backwards compatible than Windows? i have a bridge you might be interested in.
bassbeast,
I not familiar with the hardware or game, but if you’re using a historical binary driver supplied by AMD, then no it won’t work due to the unstable ABI, however these binary-only drivers were _never_ supported by linux itself and the responsibility for them lies squarely in AMD’s lap (for better or worse).
The long term compatibility is referring strictly to the open source drivers that are maintained by linux developers and not third party developers. Obviously it’s understandable that users will want the drivers to keep working regardless of whether they are open source and who made them, but in practice the manufacturers aren’t as good at maintaining their binary drivers long term. Fortunately AMD GPUs are much better supported by open source drivers today.
Don’t get me started on Linux ABI stability, in 2022 it’s still a *major* issue that waste coders’ nerves and tears. It just shows how Linux is just a hack and cannot get its own shit together and solve things elegantly, despite the numerous bearded “experts” amongst its fans base. Currently working on Alpine, there’s an API breakage between 3.12 and above, hence you have to deliver one package for each OS version. Imagine if that shit was the case on Windows. So I can understand AMD and the like not to waste too much resources on Linux bloat maintenance. As such, Linux ain’t really eco friendly due to the amount of storage space to waste for all these duplicate packages, and also file transmission from “up to date” repositories instead to rely on locally archived packages that haven’t changed for years, yet you still always need to recompile those shit for your new kernel version. Because reasons. Grow up Linux.
Kochise,
I agree, Although ABI stability over 14 years (when AMD terrascale came out) might be a bit optimistic for binary drivers, haha. I’ve had to throw away windows hardware in shorter intervals than that.
In my view an ABI should be stable within major releases at least, none of this “every update might break compatibility”. I think there are some good technical solutions to maintain functional continuity even when the ABI needs to change, but it’s all for naught if leadership remains too stubborn to address it.
While at it, there’s a program developed mainly by Microsoft that can’t be closed using alt-f4: https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/issues/7243
Microsoft has ALWAYS been a Marketing company that makes software. ALWAYS! The problem is that for the apps that they have a huge market share in they have been running rings around companies created and run by software engineers that have been somewhat inept in marketing while Microsoft has been equally uncaring about quality. ALWAYS.
How do I know? I got into computers (mainframes) in 1980 and got to see and experience a lot of the software and hardware that has been out since that time. Other than that, none experience at all (sic).
As for “stable ABI”. We have one person that is 100% behind Linus on claiming “stable ABI” is holding application developers back. Another one saying Linux itself is the problem, due to not having “stable ABI” regarding drivers. And another one saying it’s a mess as everything should be rewritten in Rust anyway. Rust not having a “stable ABI”. All this under a Microsoft Windows article that is basically suggesting if Windows doesn’t get their act together we are all moving to GNU/Linux.
Yet the issues about Windows are any of that.