An anonymous commenter on OSNews posted the snarky comment, “There is no OpenSolaris. Show us the code or quit mentioning it.” That made a couple of Sun engineers angry enough to fight back on their blogs, and the battle is now immortalized in a ZD Net article. Well, Mr. Anonymous commenter, you have been inducted into the OSNews Troll hall of fame. A plaque of a blank face representing you will be posted in our Troll hall of fame, under the bridge.
OSNews Troll Succeeds Beyond Wildest Expectations
Submitted by Will Senn 2005-05-06 Humor 65 Comments
The anonymous reader was me!!!!
How do you know the wildest expectations of a troll? Maybe he wanted them to send him the source code engraved on goldplated birch bark. 😉
in a tea cup.
who really cares?
… and this is revealed by the responses from the Sun engineers. Sun is still working on the legalities; they have not yet produced a source code release because they aren’t finished with removing or getting permissions for parts that they do not control. There’s no indication of how long this process will take, and we aren’t even assured that the open source release will correspond to what is now shipping as Solaris.
If the troll had written “there is no OpenSolaris yet“, he would be completely correct; people are already talking as if Solaris has been open-sourced, and this has not yet happened.
Now, I do believe that Sun will get the job done. But until they do, it’s vaporware, and pointing to the existing and widely used binary-only distribution of Solaris does not change this, as Sun has already made clear that they cannot ship the source that corresponds to the existing, shipping binary distribution. They will ship something else, and it is not done yet.
you got it wrong
it is not that type of troll
a true online troll is one that makes a leading statement, like “there is no Opensolaris”
the point of the troll is to get people to BITE…
just like TROLLING when you are FISHING… in the real world.
so there was no need to mention that the troll picture would be put below the bridge….
if the trolls really do belong below the bridge, would they not pounce on us and steal our shoelaces ?
But lets hope this doesn’t spur a string of anonymous comments lashing out at anything they see fit. Me, I’ll always be the TaterSalad. I’m not afraid to post non-anonymously.
He gets fifteen minutes of fame and immortalized by OSnews, great now everyone will wanna be trolls. Thanks OSnews!
There is no OSNews!!!! This site is a figment of my imagination.
I don’t believe that the commenter was actually trolling. He was merely explicitly saying what a lot of us Sun customers are thinking. He obviously touched a nerve at Sun if they felt moved enough to respond so verbosely to Shaman’s initial 2 line comment.
Anyone who believes Sun is open sourcing Solaris from the “goodness of their hearts” needs to be whacked with a big “they’re a publically-traded company” clue stick.
Sure, Alan and the other Sun engineers (I respect you all) may be working from their heart, but don’t think for a second that the people actually running Sun share the same passions. They, by necessity, must see a financial incentive to do this.
It’s been my impression that Sun tends to be the “Microsoft of the UNIX world”, often employing similar… shall we say, tactics, especially in terms of two-facedness, FUD, and litigiousness.
They probably announced OpenSolaris a little too early, or perhaps they announced it to generate hype, or force themselves to actually release it, who knows.
It’s sad that when someone states something even remotely controversial that it’s instantly labeled as “trolling” and shunned. It’s the Internet’s own version of witch hunts.
I think if you actually discuss with some who are under the Sun NDA, you will find that there really is an OpenSolaris. I have and they have code soooo…
Just recently a Sun executive who should know said publically the legal side is done, the packaging and getting it out is not yet finished.
Sun put a 45 day timeframe on completing the process at their May 3 2005 uqarterly event.
So when July 1 comes around, it should be released.
My guess, Sun has found cleaning up the code, legally and technically, has been much more of a chore than originally thought. But I doubt it’s vaporware.
I also doubt there is ulterior motives involved, but I also suspect there is more fear and loathing in the Linux developer shop than they want anyone to know about.
The sham sleight oh hand that open source is Linux, when Linux is just an open source kernel isn’t going to last much longer — Linux the kernel, is not the same as Linux the OS. There are several distros of OpenSolaris being done which will look just like a linux distro to the end user — that’s when it’s going to get fun. Who cares what kernel you are running — joe sixpack user doesn’t.
“There is no OSNews!!!! This site is a figment of my imagination.”
Like maybe an evil genius came up with yhe idea of a website to fool you into thinking there is one right?
Your name is not Descartes, is it?
This article is more of a troll than what the original poster posted.
There is no Troll hall of fame. Show us the pictures of this alleged hall of fame or quit mentioning it.
over OpenSolaris. Didn’t Sun ever mentionned to open up Solaris many years ago? o_O
Troll comments payback.
“A plaque of a blank face representing you will be posted in our Troll hall of fame, under the bridge.”
Do you think you could upload a picture of this Troll hall of fame?
Just because you can’t download it doesn’t mean that is does not exist. When I Beta Tested Solaris 10 I had to sign the “NDA from Hell” before Sun would give me access to anything. I am sure that it is no different with OpenSolaris. At least Sun is making the attempt, that is more than I can say for IBM or HP.
frickin’ ‘a that was funny…
its good to see trolls are finally getting recognized for all the hardwork they do!
I think every troll on OSNews should get a reward, but then the world would run out of rewards.
Man, I’m shocked you haven’t deleted the post already! I mean, we don’t want OSNews to look bad, do we?
As another reader said, storm in a teacup. It was a topical comment so don’t get your undies in a twist. I doubt it was a comment directed at / slamming the good coders over at Sun, nor was it intended to make Sun look bad. More, I would suspect it was more of a “Hey, you guys getting on that opening of the source thing?”
Besides, bad publicity is better than none, or so they say.
Wow this is quite interesting! Global village alright! Someone posts a comment and you get near instantaneous reactions! Brilliant haha
this troll had made comments about IBM not open sourcing OS/2… or SCO having evidence… or Microsoft’s antitrust activities… or who killed JFK… lets see as much publicity about these issues!
This is precisely why I view the rise of corporate blogging with great trepidation. Sooner or later, a company is going to get sunk by something someone mentions in a blog post…
The reason it’s a troll, because Sun has set an explicit timeline leading right up to this quarter. Even at their Q2 announcement this week, they said it is coming _this_quarter_, meaning _within_the_next_three_months_.
Already there are screenshots and commentary on the build process at Blastwave and Cuddletech (pilot program members).
http://www.cuddletech.com/shots/opensolaris-sparc-feb1b.jpg (apparently not the default UI–default would be GNOME)
http://www.blastwave.org/dclarke/blog/ (incl. build times)
I’m surprised that the Sun people would take a comment like that so seriously, especially if their accustomed to this forum. Do they not know that trolling and flamewars are par for the course here?
Congratulations to OSNews for getting some nice press coverage! It is nice to see that mixed in with a plethora of zealots and low brows that there are some quality industry players that post to and peruse this site. On the other hand it is pathetic that a cowardly troll gets so much attention.
Do these bloggers.
Qualify for Micro$oft Team 99 blog money.
Sun and Microsoft are partners .
Fintan – http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/fintanr/20050425#putting_trolls_to…
Alan – http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/tpenta/20050425#opensolaris_is_not…
While it’s nice that OSNews gets some press coverage (it often does on Slashdot, btw), I do think giving a troll so much attention is a mistake. Trolls crave attention, and this one has been rewarded in spades.
Sun’s engineers could have made these announcements without directly referring to the troll’s post as the triggering event.
Actually I don’t think that the original commenter was really trolling. He was most likely just frustratedly venting. But since his snarky comment sparked some real reaction among Sun people, I’ve retroactively labeled him a master Troll in order to be able to make a cheap joke.
Just trying to lighten up everyone’s day!
I don’t know, but I think I would be concerned that trollish content on my site gets more attention than legitimate stuff. I think they responded appropriately and without going “off the deep end” like calling Sun fanboys nazis:
“Wow. You guys are delusional. And clueless. And using logic blocking.
This feels like USENET all over again. I think I’ll end this by using a Nazi reference.
Sun fanboys are Nazis.
^^^ official USENET “end of thread” designator”
ZDNet picked up the “story” and ran with it, which doesn’t say a great deal about their journalistic skill.
some sun devs read a fairly average osnews comment, and blew it out of proportion on their blogs. thats perfectly fine, cause blogs are a great place to vent, and its understandable that you would be a little pissed if you are pulling long shifts to get something out the door, and you are not only unappreciated, but called a lier.
whats not so cool is zdnet picking it up, being moderately respectable and all. slashdot picking it up is just silly.
Yes, it seems we are in agreement over this.
Don’t feed the trolls, OSNews.
Can i open source my genetic make-up. I wish to be copied and improved upon.
I think he may be right:
“If you can’t download it then it doesn’t exist”.
If Sun wants to join the Open Source world, why doesn’t it Open Source Java? You know, the thing that people are BEGGING them to Open Source?
Just showing a code doesnt make thing going open source. I
could show you solaris code somewhere in 1997. I was young
had a lot of time for hacking around, been here been there
copyed the shit hell out from them. It’s not only about
solaris tho, i had that little smile on my face when everybody around was so excited about some of Microsoft code leek (not that long ago).
Making something open source is more like letting ideas you
have, to evolve in a new world. It’s a market where everybody wins, because it prevents existense of monopoly in
ps: everybody hates monopoly until he runs one
At least Sun is making the attempt, that is more than I can say for IBM or HP.
1. do not understand the license complexity of UNIX derivatives. If Solaris can becomd open source easily does not automatically mean the same is true for AIX, HP/UX or Tru64.
2. have not thought through the gain IBM or HP would get by open sourcing AIX, HP/UX or Tru64. How home entusiasts do you think are going to buy an POWER4 based system tomorrow if AIX becomes open source?
Just because there are other UNIX out there does not mean you have to rush to any comparisons.
The guy said there is no OpenSolaris — ‘OpenSolaris’ is, by defintion, solaris for which source is publically available. THIS DOES NOT EXIST YET.
The ‘troll’ was right, and he was just pointing out that to the rest of the world OpenSolaris is vapor ware.
Would you osnews editors get off of you god damned high horses? This article is more snarky than the post in question.
This OSNews is a troll story in of itself.
I don’t think anybody’s denying that sun is working on a product called OpenSolaris, nor that the source code for it exists in some human readable form. At this point though, it’s not any more open, in common terminology, than OpenVMS was. Sure, the OS exists, but its source is not publicly available, so it’s not “open” in the sense that people normally mean. As far as the public is concerned, there is no Open Solaris Operating System.
Actually I owned two POWER systems when I was learning AIX and considered purchasing a machine to get back up to speed on HP-UX. Both types of machines are readily available on eBay (if you are willing to pay for them). And I understand the licensing quite well, so I ask again where is IBM and HP in this? If Sun can manage to produce OpenSolaris, why can’t IBM and HP follow suite? I have maintained, as others with Enterprise experience will agree with me that IBM and HP hold AIX and HP-UX as their “ace in the hole”, for when the Linux solutions they push fail for whatever reason. When IBM Open Sources the ability to create LPARs on Linux, that will be an exciting day. But I would not hold your breath on that, just as I don’t expect HP to give Linux the ability to create vPars.
Sun makes a bold move and the nay sayers and the Linux zealots who once said “competition is good” bitch! Obviously nobody read my post about OpenSolaris to be released in 45 days. I’m looking forward to a bunch of people eating crow when OpenSolaris is released.
Actually I owned two POWER systems when I was learning AIX and considered purchasing a machine to get back up to speed on HP-UX. Both types of machines are readily available on eBay (if you are willing to pay for them).
You have not answered point 2 in any way. That you personally are willing to get an old POWER machine is a single sample. Single samples are statistically irrelevant.
Both types of machines are readily available on eBay
Even if you buy off the whole eBay availability, this does not translate into any significant benefit for IBM or HP. And I think most people are unwilling to pay disproportional (in term of their performance) sums for old workstations, by the way.
And I understand the licensing quite well, so I ask again where is IBM and HP in this? If Sun can manage to produce OpenSolaris, why can’t IBM and HP follow suite?
If you understand the licensing issue well, you should be able to answer the question yourself: The proportion of System V code portions inside AIX and Tru64 are different compared to Solaris is quite different.
The rest of your posting is not related to what I have posted.
This is really sad. OSnews feels promoting this sort of activity improves the OSNews image how? The fact that the person in question is named a Troll here only proves that someone hopes to be the hero here.
I apologise if I am out of line here, but I feel this entire situation is being exploited more for personal gain than anything. OSNews actually takes pride in the fact that Sun pays enough attention to this news site to notice this? Well, more power to them.
Again, I’m sorry, but this has me enraged. *spit*
Who cares what “value” it brings to IBM or HP, the same could be said about Sun. What “value” does it bring to Sun? Of the three, Solaris is the lowest cost (even before they basically made it “free”). Sun didn’t have to Open Source Solaris, they could have continued to keep it closed and proprietary just like IBM and HP are going to keep AIX and HP-UX. And this is how IBM and HP are going to maintain their “value”, since these operating systems support features that Linux running on POWER and HP’s SuperDome do not support.
Sun is managing to produce an Open variant of a SVR4 based operating system, so explain to me why IBM and HP can’t? That is because Sun has been removing the SVR4 code that would raise the ire of the SCO Group and Novell for years. So how about answering my question?
“That is because Sun has been removing the SVR4 code that would raise the ire of the SCO Group and Novell for years.”
IIRC, Sun has invested at least 5 years worth of R&D into OpenSolaris so far. The fact that Sun has been working on this for so long shows a lot of foresight into the UNIX market, which IBM and HP probably lacked completely, and IBM and HP are backtracking and taking Linux as the next best thing to be ‘politically correct’ in the marketplace.
I agree that deep down within HP and IBM, they probably still view lock-in as a revenue model, which isn’t good for their UNIX customers. With OpenSoalris, Sun is blatantly pointing out that all HP and IBM customers are overpaying big time. It basically is a mockery of all Itanium and POWER customers–this all makes for some good dry entertainment for UNIX aficionados everywhere.
Sun makes a bold move and the nay sayers and the Linux zealots who once said “competition is good” bitch!
Hey, I’m not bitching about the competition. I’m bitching about the hype. Compete already. Whatcha waitin for..
Actually Solaris has been competing very nicely. It will be interesting to see how things progress in the next few years. OpenSolaris represents the potential for Sun to get more man-hours of development put into their product.
This isn’t a race for who gets there first. Its a race for gets it right. So things like style and attitude matter just as much as the features. Ever notice how commercial software tends to advertise on your hardware? Some people like this, but I bet a growing percentage of the market do not. Trends matter. Honesty matters. Being real matters. Capitalism just can’t compete with reality. But maybe it can learn how to get along.
So how about answering my question?
If you cares to read my postings, the answer is point 2. “Your” whole collection of all old POWER machines on eBay does not sum into a significant reason for IBM to open source AIX. The very same reason also holds for all other UNIX variants you can ask by your logic: Why is ther no open source UNICOS/mk, etc.
But it is pretty obvious: You do not care to read my postings. On the other hand, your only interest seems inflamming an “Solaris vs all other UNIX” discussion. I was only interested to point out two reasons.
Sorry but yout have NOT answered Robert’s question, at all. Rereading your comments is a waste of time that I have, unfortunately, indulged in.
To see if their Unix(TM) license they bought from SCO is any good or not.
Sorry but yout have NOT answered Robert’s question, at all.
I think I have written this before, and I really hate to repeate myself. But since you like it:
For: If Sun can manage to produce OpenSolaris, why can’t IBM and HP follow suite?
Neither, AIX, nor HP/UX or Tru64 runs on IA-32 or AMD64. There is no consumer hardware for this operating systems. The gain to have open sourced AIX is very minimal. For IBM or HP, the gain of open sourcing AIX, HP/UX, Tru64 would be minimal, and completely disproportional to the efforts.
And on the other hand, Robert Escue’s argument never gets explained, why the small collection of old POWER hardware can result in any momentum that would amortize the investment in removing System V codes.
It is no wonder if you do not read my 2nd argument, that you keep asking the very same question.
Same holds for: Sun is managing to produce an Open variant of a SVR4 based operating system, so explain to me why IBM and HP can’t?
Now I wasted much more of my time.
I checked the comment, and saw it was written by “Shaman”. I don’t think that’s anonymous.
Ok, so the original poster could have used more tact, maybe he could have been more polite. Here is the thing though, the poster actually followed up his abrasive statements with argument. And some other people chimed in to back him up. A troll is someone who makes a knowingly absurd claim for the exclusive purpose of titillation, anger, or fervor.
Had that post and all follow-up posts been wrapped up and nicely packaged into a well-constructed argument and exposition of opinion, then I don’t see Sun making an effective rebuttal.
The product, offering, whatever you want to call it, of ‘OpenSolaris’ does not exist. The code base for what will (might?) eventually be OpenSolaris exists. These are two distinctly different things. If you can’t understand that, consider the following:
Windows XP x64
Mac OS X Tiger
Do you see the difference between the first three and the last one? I ask because if you listen to some of the language tossed around by Sun, you can’t tell a difference. To the average developer, admin, or end user, OpenSolaris is about as real as the Mars Rover. OpenSolaris to me exists in blogspace. Proof of Live comes in the form of terminal session captures, IRC banter, and journal entries. And what does that tell me? That people are working on it? I already knew that.
I respect Sun a lot. I like what they do. These engineers are smart, hardworking people. But the situation as I have just described it frustrates the impatient and gives fodder to the naysayer. Surely they understand this..
Sun seems hell-bent on creating this frenzy. And for what? We know it’s cool; stop yammering on about it. Actually, the only thing absurd here is how Sun people responded. Their tone was uncalled for. They acted like it was ridiculous someone had the audacity to claim that OpenSolaris was not, at that moment, “open”. Well, it wasn’t, and it still isn’t. So stop the games. That post actually adds some balance to what I’ve been hearing for months. And another thing, the poster reads OSNews.com. It would not be unreasonable to assume that this person knows what kind of energy it takes to develop an operating system; what kind of resources have to be committed. You really thing people reading Slashdot, OSNews and friends don’t have any idea of the manpower it takes to open a closed source OS? We already know it takes more than doing a search/replace for curse words on the source tree.
An appreciable cadre of Sun wanabees and fan boys perked up to toss in their $.02. Blindly backing up anything Sun people say. A note to those people (you know who you are): Drop it. You’re not in the inner circles; you don’t work for Sun. Stop kissing up.
Sun thinks they are slick. They generate this buzz, this hype. They stop short of saying anything actionable, yet they keep people itching. So I find it funny when they go into a tizzy when someone expresses frustration.
Personally, I can wait. Whenever Sun delivers is fine by me. OpenSolaris will be added to the roster of available open systems software; all complex, uniquely incapable, not much better or worse than their closed counterparts. When it finally comes to fruition it will likely be the most interesting news story that day.
I never thought engineers read this sort of stuff and pay attention to what people said, that is weak.
So my argument is invalid because there is no “consumer” hardware for AIX or HP? Get real! Part of the reason why Solaris is so popular is because of the third party hardware market. IBM and HP (particularly IBM) have missed the boat by overpricing their Unix workstation offerings:
Now look at a dual Opteron offering from Sun:
HP’s site refers potential purchasers of workstations to VARs, but the pricing is similar. The bottom line is IBM and HP are practicing what Sun has been accused of for years, that their workstation solutions are grossly overpriced.
No kidding AIX and HP-UX don’t run on Intel hardware (except HP-UX on Itanium). Just because I didn’t answer your question to your satisfaction (which is very narrowly defined) doesn’t mean I didn’t answer it. And since you obviously cannot answer mine, you are starting to waste my time!
well the sun opteron wks are cheap. but the sun sparc isn’t.
AIX is not htere for x86 hardware and ibm dosent want to port
it x86 thats why they offer linux for there x86 workstations and those have simmilar price to the sun opetron workstations.
I’ll be very happy when OpenSolaris gets here – but it hasn’t yet. gliss is right – it does not yet exist. The people saying it will never happen -want- to be proven wrong (for the most part). We want Sun to realize the potential they have, embrace it, and go kick some OS butt.
Everyone here seems to believe in Myths. There are no such things as “trolls”, “secure” Windows, “desktop” Linux, “open” Solaris, or Duke Nukem Forever.
I never thought engineers read this sort of stuff and pay attention to what people said, that is weak.
Sometimes yes. Othertimes what people write here can be quite enlightening.
“the point of the troll is to get people to BITE…”
True. But just because people bite doesn’t mean that the comment that got under their skin was a troll. Much of what Schwartz says gets under my skin, but that doesn’t mean that he is a troll (although there are a bunch of other things I would call him).
The comment that there is no Open Solaris doesn’t come out of the blue: it contains a very real warning. Ten years ago, Sun promised that Java would be standardized by a recognized standards body and they have failed to deliver. And since then, McNealy, Schwartz, and other Sun employees have been railing against some forms of open source and it looks like they have been trying to pull other dirty tricks on open source projects.
With that kind of history, people don’t trust Sun’s statements about what they are going to do anymore, in particular given that they have had several delays already.
Open Solaris stops being vaporware only when it actually ships under an open source license and compiles into something useful. The fact that we don’t take Sun’s word for that anymore and the fact that open souce folks get annoyed by Sun is something Sun only has themselves to blame.
as David points out, the comment is only retroactively trollish…
OpenSolaris is such a hot topic, in part, due to the perceived lack of confidence that Sun means what it says and that it will actually deliver an opensource Solaris.
There have been rumors of the open sourcing of Solaris for a very long time – see: http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/story/0,10801,92854,…
and then in January, the official announcement – see:
Gotta cut Sun some slack though, it takes time to iron out the details and deliver a project this big – take the Netscape browser, a much smaller project – on January 22, 1998 they announced their intention to open source Netscape. It took them over 2 months, until March 31, 1998, to deliver on the promise – see http://www.opensource.ac.uk/mirrors/www.opensource.org/docs/history… for a short history. Not only that, but Sun’s announcement said Q2 – give them a Microsoft (IT version of a Mulligan) and if they get it out this year, they will be doing swell.
oh, and gnillort still motivates generates more discussion on the web than any other form of communication – sorry to say (top posters beware!)