Xserve Outside the Reality Distortion Field

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1. 2002-05-19 8:51 pm

   Anonymous

   “More important than this, is some of the technology which Apple is showing off in the Xserve product. Finally, Apple is up to speed with their internal bus speeds.”

   If Im Not Mistaken … Is The FSB Still at 133mhz Per G4 ???

   Correct Me If I’m Wrong…

   WooHoo First Post !!!
2. 2002-05-19 9:12 pm

   Anonymous

   and a very good discussion of the decisions apple had to contend with. with respect to the ata drives, i have read articles which discuss the use of ata drives in future higher end storage systems. i am not quite comfortable with them yet, but redundancy and a back up plan should take care of that. i do use apple servers, and i am looking forward to getting an xseve this summer, though i would like to see the raid system first. and, since we have a small design office, i am considering using these as rack mount workstations like the intellistation r (discontinued). these really need to be evaluated in terms of apple’s market, which is not ferrari’s but more like subaru’s with the wrx–fast, inexpensive, reliable… and, having witnessed the potential horrors of windows servers, i have to say that apple’s servers tend to work very well in heterogenious environments, and never seem to outright fail.
3. 2002-05-19 9:24 pm

   Anonymous

   Advancements in computing have rendered ECC obsolete. There is no reason to have ECC RAM as long as your computer uses SDRAM DIMMs or newer style RAM.

   The ATA busses in the Xserve are ATA/100 for a combined theoretical peak of 400MB/sec.

   The RAID in most Macs is software RAID, but Apple has included a hardware RAID controller for the Xserve.

   All in all it is a good value considering that the G4 1GHz can run circles around the P4 2GHz. [Everyone thinks clock cycles are a measure of equivalency, but they aren’t. That’s just Intel’s reality distortion field. No one would question that the Itanium is more powerful that the best P4, but it only runs at 800MHz.]
4. 2002-05-19 10:08 pm

   Anonymous

   Check out the Spec stuff for the Itanium….for integer operations it’s terrible. I think that the Sparc and the Itanium are the only modern general purpose CPU’s that lack out of order execution, and the Spec int scores reflect this.

   “thinks clock cycles are a measure of equivalency, but they aren’t”

   That’s not the whole story. How many instructions a CPU can execute in one second is

   (clock speed) * (instructions per cycle). So what if the G4 can do more instructions per cycle if it’s clock speed is so much lower the the P4(less then half the fastest P4 by now). You can either increase clock speed or the number of instructions per cycle to increse your performance.

   My $0.02

   James
5. 2002-05-19 10:53 pm

   Anonymous

   Taking things in reverse order:

   > No one would question that the Itanium is more powerful that the best P4, but it only runs at 800MHz.]

   I think that quite a lot of people would differ with this statement.

   The fastest an Itanium managed in on the SPECint2000 cluster of tests was 395. It did quite a bit better on SPECfp2000, scoring a 715. By comparison, Dell managed to score 811 SpecInt2000 and 802 SpecFP2000 on a Precision WorksStation 340 w/ 2.2Ghz Pentium IV.

   The scores for the Itanium are a bit old. Compiler improvements over the past year or so would have driven up its speed a bit. But not *that* much. Outside certain applications (primarily cryptography), Itanium hasn’t done particularly well. Certainly it hasn’t been able to make any real inroads into the markets where 64bit processors are needed. We’ll see whether the much-delayed McKinley is able to pull the Itanium architecture out of the benchmark dungeon.

   >All in all it is a good value considering that the G4 1GHz can run circles around the P4 2GHz. [Everyone thinks clock cycles are a measure of equivalency, but they aren’t. ]

   In that case Apple should fire all of its marketers, who have been saying this ever since the G4 got stuck at 400Mhz.

   I think the “clock cycle” myth is a bit of a red herring.

   The problem is that on most workloads the G4 really isn’t that fast. While there are certainly exceptions, particularly applications that heavily benefit from Altivec’s vector model (Photoshop and BLAST), the G4 doesn’t perform that well.

   And that makes sense. Remember, Motorola’s primary market for the G4 isn’t Apple. It is embedded systems. This means that power efficiency, heat dissipation, and probably cost are more important than raw performance. On the other hand, only a tiny percentage of Intel’s new x86 CPUs go into anything more embedded than a laptop, so Intel spends watts like there was no tommorrow in pursuit of high performance for its pricy processors.

   Here Anton Ertl summarizes a run of SPECint and SPECfp by C’t magazine. This is quoted from the comp.arch newsgroup (see groups.google.com) The text of the actual C’t article is available from http://www.heise.de/ct/english/02/05/182/

   “c’t 5/2002, pages 182-183 publishes SPEC CPU2000 results for various

   Apple G4s and a Pentium III/1000 (all with 512MB RAM in single-user

   mode). Here they are:

   C compiler SPECint_base SPECfp_base

   G4 800 gcc 242 147

   G4 867 gcc 259 153

   G4 1000 gcc 306 187

   P3 1000 gcc 309

   P3 1000 MSC 236

   The Metroworks compiler produced slightly worse results than gcc. The

   gcc version used was gcc-2.95.[23] on all machines. The compiler used

   for the Fortran benchmarks was Absoft Pro Fortran 7.0.

   The article lists the individual results for SPECint_base; The G4 1GHz

   is significantly faster then the P3 1GHz on 176.gcc (444 vs. 286) and

   300.twolf (522 vs. 340), and significantly slower on 186.crafty (334

   vs. 444).

   ”

   Note that a) the P-III is slower than the P-IV. b) gcc isn’t a great compiler. But it was the fastest available for these tests on MacOS X. Using a commercial compiler, SPECint base on the fastest P-IV is more than twice Apple’s score, and the Dell 340 is three times as fast on floating point.

   GCC 3.1 helps out the G4. But it won’t be in wide use until at least the release of MacOS 10.2.

   Don’t get me wrong. I like Apples. I bought a brand new TiBook a few weeks ago. But I didn’t buy it because it was overwhelmingly fast.

   Yours truly,

   Jeffrey Boulier
6. 2002-05-19 11:17 pm

   Anonymous

   One thing that this article seems to ignore which is very important is the software of the various systems, an area I believe that apple has a clear advantage. Most customers looking for an entry level server system cannot afford the most skilled system administrators and thus having reliable and easily configured software is essential.

   By building OS X on a Unix core with well tested open source software (Apache, Samba, PHP, MySQL, Tomcat, OpenSSL) apple has created a rock solid, full featured server platform. Beyond this they add their own QuickTime Streaming Server and WebObjects software to increase the power of the system. Most importantly however is how easy apple has made it to configure and monitor such a system. As they put it the Xserve adds “legendary Apple ease of use that makes it possible even for non-techies to manage a large server farm”, somthing that the other entry level servers cannot claim with the validity apple can.

   It seems to me like the Xserve is showing what may be (to Apple’s suprise) the strongest point of OSX, its ability as a server platform. By combining the power of a Unix server with the ease of use of the Mac may lead apple into a whole new market where the profit margins are much larger.
7. 2002-05-20 1:25 am

   Anonymous

   … but this stands out:

   All in all it is a good value considering that the G4 1GHz can run circles around the P4 2GHz.

   Nice try, troll. Next time, don’t make your lies TOO bad. Maybe a half truth like 1GHz G4 = 2GHz P4 or maybe even the truth: 1GHz G4 ~= 1.7GHz P4. But ‘run circles’? Too obvious of a troll.
8. 2002-05-20 1:47 am

   Anonymous

   > All in all it is a good value considering that the G4 1GHz can run circles around the P4 2GHz.

   Sean, get real.

   Please consult previous OSNews stories about some benchmarks done against dual and single G4s against P4s and Athlons.
9. 2002-05-20 1:55 am

   Anonymous

   until it ships why even have this discussion?!?!

   Pull more crap like this and I’ll stop reading this “news”. Call it what it is–a 7 foot heap of speculation straight from the asses of zealots.

   ugh
10. 2002-05-20 2:15 am

    Anonymous

    I recently got a new iMac G4. I did not get this because I wanted the fastest computer on the block, nor a screaming powerhouse. I’m still in college so I move several times a year and the computer’s easily transported. I love the LCD screen (easy on the eyes), although I would’ve liked a higher max res. I got the top 800mhz model and my old computer was a 600mhz PIII. Now obviously it is faster than my old computer; but the difference is far from staggering. But this is also true of faster Intel machines. The only places I’ve gotten a real speed boost are in encodings and compiling. I got my Mac because I wanted to try something new and I’m glad I did. I’ve developed an attachment to Apple lately that I never had with the PC platform. That being said, I still feel that anyone severely biased over these things is a moron. The power of average PCs and Macs seems to be relatively equivilent, and bickering won’t get you anywhere. People should just use what works for them and not get their panties in a ruffle when someone else doesn’t get the same experience out of it.
11. 2002-05-20 2:24 am

    Anonymous

    The article mentioned the following:

    [i]The first thing to note is the outrageous pricing of the Compaq servers in this and future categories, which is literally more than twice as much as the next most expensive machines. I can not see any reason for their machines to start at over $12000–without any software installed no less! [i]

    There are a number of reasons why server equipment is more expensive than expected but the biggest is redundancy. The compaq servers that are priced so outrageously have features such as dual power supplies, hot swap drive bays and most importantly on-site support. This is the sort of thing no company can do without.

    Unfortunately your story made no mention of these sort of features existing on the Apple offering. Without them the only market for these Apple Servers are small companies that like to live on the edge.

    All in all though, these servers will fill a demand I think.

    Cheers

    David
12. 2002-05-20 2:43 am

    Anonymous

    The fact is that people shouldn’t talk about what they don’t know. I’d bet that most of you don’t even have a bachelors degree nevermind a masters degree in the field.

    Benchmarks are never accurate unless comparing the same processor (just like clock speed).

    SPEC is hichly influenced by intel in order to get good results for their processors (it isn’t multiprocessor enabled which everyone is under the impression of).

    Someone said that the clock speed myth was a red herring. Then why is intel marketing itaniums at 800MHz as their most powerful processor?

    As much as everyone likes clock speed it can be misleading. The P4 has a 21 stage pipeline while the G4 has a 7 stage pipeline (shorter is better). One way of attempting an increase in clock speed is to increase the length of the pipeline. The problem is that each instruction has to go through each stage. This works beautifully if the computer is able to anticipate the instructions that will come after it, but most of the time this is not the case. The finished instruction will make everything in the pipeline irrevalent and the pipeline will be cleared and an instruction will start at the beginning. Having a full pipeline means that your processor is running most efficiently and a RISC architecture helps this. Intel’s high clock speeds help to offset some of the problems of a pipeline since it is able to fill up faster, but its length is still quite long.

    Processor design is very complicated and none of you understand anything about it (which is what Intel wants). GCC is absolutely atrocious when it comes to the PPC processor (there are many other compilers that are much more efficient). The fact is that people who know what they are talking about know the superiority of processors like PA-RISC, UltraSPARC III, PowerPC, Power4, etc. The problem is that even well educated people don’t understand more than they hear in an Intel commercial.

    Oh, and Jeffrey Boulier the Itanium is much faster than any P4. The problem is that people look to sources of information that are either partial or ignorent. YOU seem to read too many macosrumors articles (talk about ignorence).
13. 2002-05-20 2:43 am

    Anonymous

    >>what it is–a 7 foot heap of speculation straight from the asses of zealots.

    <<

    Maybe some people enjoy the heap, or don’t think there is anything wrong with the heap. I just don’t care ether way about the heap. But I will take a picture of it while looking at it.
14. 2002-05-20 3:05 am

    Anonymous

    On a whole I think the XServe’s look very nice and from the article seem to compare favourably with x86 offerings.

    From a marketing standpoint they do seem impressive. Dual gigabit ethernet controllers and 4 individual ata controllers.

    This is where I am not sure about. Taking just the Ethernet controllers and ATA channels in consideration this equates roughly to over 600 Mbytes/sec (400 drives + 200 ethernet).

    Now I am not sure how Apple BUS architecture is designed but if it’s anything like general x86 setups there is a north bridge and a south bridge. The south bridge usually linking into the disc controllers, pci bus and onboard ethernet devices while the north bridge talks to the CPUs memory controllers and AGP. Now if apple do use similar chipset laytous to x86 is the interconnect between the north and south bridge large enough to cater for all these bandwidth intensive devices (4 x hard drives, dual gigabit ethernet controllers).

    Also I read somewhere on apples page that while the Xserve has DDR ram it said somewhere else that is has a 1 GB bus to ram. Does this while the Xserve is equipped with DDR it can’t take advantage of it? Does this mean that the Xserve while impresive specwise is more about marketing hype then technical superiority (ie. the wow factor hardware like gigabit ethernet cards let down by inferior bus architecture)?

    If anyone knows aything about these issues I would be interested in knowing.
15. 2002-05-20 4:02 am

    Anonymous

    “Operating system costs, even for many non-Windows options, can be anywhere between $700 and several thousands of dollars.”

    argh! is this osnews?

    who pays anything for a proprietary server os when you can get a free one for free?
16. 2002-05-20 4:03 am

    Anonymous

    Whether or not GCC is an ‘atrocious’ compiler for the PowerPC is largely irrelevant–it’s the only one in wide use on the Mac platform, and for all practical purposes it’s the “Apple anointed” compiler. The performance of Visual C++ on Windows is more important than the performance of ICC from a user standpoint for the same reason: the OS and nearly all the applications are made with Microsoft tools these days, except for the handful done with Borland’s. It’s cruel to say that ICC’s chief use is for compiling benchmarks and entertaining engineers (and giving OS News editors and readers argument fodder), but it’s probably not too far from the truth, either.

    Back in the mid-80s most people who really knew processor design would tell you that Zilog’s Z80, and Hitachi’s enhanced HD64180 version, had better design than Intel’s 8/16-bit 8086 line (up to the 80386SX). When the Z80/64180 was at 4-6 MHz and the x86 was at 8-12 MHz, the 64180 in particular could still be faster. When it was 6-9 Mhz versus 20 or 25 MHz, well… you could live with it. When it was still 6-9 MHz, maybe 12 MHz, versus 66 MHz, forget it.

    Of course clock speed isn’t everything. But it’s disingenuous to suggest that CPU design can come close to making it irrelevant. An engine design that’s brilliant and even groundbreaking from an automotive engineering standpoint may still get its ass kicked by a Mustang GT in a race. Likewise, Motorola’s elegant, efficient CPU design makes their CPUs more elegant and efficient, but in the real world, inelegant, inefficient designs can be faster.
17. 2002-05-20 4:32 am

    Anonymous

    Isn’t this like comparing pictures of burgers in front of McD’s and BKing.

    They both are made to look attractive.

    They both look like Burgers.

    but one is flame broiled.

    how do you compare.

    Besides they both suck.

    To “gz”.

    Apple systems do not use the same system layout as generic PeeCees.

    The past generation of G4’s was using something called the MaxBus architecture.

    What it is technically I don’t know, although from what I’ve gleaned it’s a more efficient way of distributing bandwith resources then the usual N/S/PCI setup.

    I’m hoping that this new generation of systems are based on Hypertransport as well as RapidI/O.

    But no mention of this is anywhere in the Apple Literature, and since Apple is a HyperT and RapidIO “Syndicate” member I would think they would advertise these technologies;

    so it’s an open question until we see which side of the toast has butter on it.

    Just like everything else in this discussion.

    To Sean.

    Please don’t.

    I love Mac’s, I love PPC, but no, we ain’t faster, just because you say so.

    G4 is good but not that good.

    If it was there wouldn’t be constant discussion on it’s merrits; which implies that G4’s are not showing a clear advantage over P4’s.

    Motorolla suxs and Apple needs to deal with them now.

    PS: G5 is only a distant dream, which like many dreams might never happen, so fellow MacEvangelists, don’t go there, as you will get sh*t on your face.

    As long as Apple is dealing with the sinking ship which is Moto’s CPU division, we got to be praying for an act of God to make PPC’s desktop cpu future look rosy.

    PPS: PC users; K7/8 will not help any, because it will take longer to move all software/people to a completely new Arch, than there is time left in the future dev of CMOS technology, (which incidentaly is supposed to stop being usefull at the same time as the Aliens are supposed to invade (2012)).

    I think Apple should contract AMD to make Apple branded PPC’s that will fulfill Apple’s needs; but this would also take to long, so I see IBM re-becoming the prefered CPU vendor sooner than later.

    Ciao.
18. 2002-05-20 5:29 am

    Anonymous

    1)

    If the bottleneck was in the processor, and not in the memory system, then we can reasonably expect these G4’s to perform on par with a mid-1.5GHz Pentium chip on normal operations, and maybe up to a 2GHz Pentium on certain optimized floating point operations.

    Completely wrong..

    Altivec helps a g4 1 gig keep up with a p4 1.7.. if your useing floating point operations it wont come close not a chance. You mean if they used vectorised altivec code.. this is differnet from “floating point operations” which implies using the fpu .. which ath and even p4 kick g4.

    Benchmarks show this is part of the “reality distortion field”.

    Some lightwave benchmarks?

    http://www.blanos.com/benchmark/

    After Effects Showdown: Mac vs. PC

    http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?%…

    GFlops even a k6 (BEFORE Athlon) 350 mhz machine can get up to 1.4 GFLOPS!

    http://aggregate.org/EXHIBITS/sc98.html

    As to apples marketing .. be afraid .. be very afriad.

    Another real world benchmark with multimedia (u know the thing that allways mac goes faster at? WRONG AGAIN)

    http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=538

    If anyone can actually find me a benchmark other than distibuted.net which relies on 1 instruction that altivec does but not SSE then pls post it here.

    EVERY REAL WORLD BENCHMARK ON THE NET SHOWS that a g4 1 gig is similar to about a 1 gig Athlon or 1.4 gig p4.. the dual gig 1 g4 (being 2 processors not 1) is of course not as good as a single p4 2 gig + or athlon let alone dual proc for pc.

    2)Since the G4 in the dual processor Apple workstations, was recently defeated in multimedia benchmarks by a dual 1.5GHz Athlon, it will be interesting to see how the Xserve will benchmark against the single and dual processor Pentiums with their new memory subsystem.

    So do some dam benchmarks.. get one .. run apache and linux .. and apache and windows and apache in osx.. youll see how the ddr ram cant really save apple. The pcs will win.. u might be able to find one of the photoshop benchmarks .. say the 5.01 (the one made up by apple marketing department) to make the g4 win! u might!!

    Unfourtunatly ppl do not understand.. most code is normal CPU code .. so similar Mhz between g4 and pentium 3.. with p4 and ath they seem to give more cpu performance per clock than g4.

    Altivec is better than SSE but not as good as SSE2 (altivec dosent support 64 bit numbers) and ends up performing similarly per clock to 3dnow and sse.

    Lets get to the point.. altivec is about multimedia only and in multimedia benchmarks when 3dnow or sse2 are used clock for clock they are very similar.. so would u rather a 2 gig machine.. or a maxed out 1 gig.. because the g4 technology has allready been pushed so far.

    3) In terms of raw performance there is a great deal of benefit to be gained from using the DDR RAM.

    not reall look at a benchmark for gods sake.. sure it helps a athlon 2 gig .. a bit.

    4)it could provide a truly impressive disk I/O performance advantage for the Xserve, especially since the four disks act as one large disk via software RAID software built into the OS.

    what like same RAID that was invented for SCSI?

    5) Its a good price and built in gigabit is good.

    Thats all.. oh but web serving and networking arent going to use altivec now are they?
19. 2002-05-20 7:32 am

    Anonymous

    Dan will you set up the free OS for free, for me ? 😉

    Thoems
20. 2002-05-20 9:01 am

    Anonymous

    I find Xserve overpriced. For half the price of the single processor version you can build a dual Athlon 2000+ MP with as much RAM and hard drive capacity in a U1 rack. And it will kiss Xserve ass all around as far as processing power go. And with FreeBSD, it won’t be much different from console-mode MacOS X
21. 2002-05-20 10:51 am

    Anonymous

    Here is some RC5 benchmarks posted a few months ago from a technophile on one of the old Mac tech sites…

    RC5 CPU Comparison:

    Processor________________MHz___CPU___Key Rate

    PowerPC G4_______________1000___2___21,129,654

    DEC Alpha 21264___________725___8___11,536,680

    AMD Athlon Thunderbird___1533___2___10,807,034

    Intel Pentium 3__________1333___2___7,559,280

    Intel Xeon_______________1000___2___5,835,597

    Intel Pentium 4__________1800___2___4,870,420

    Sun UltraSPARC III________750___2___2,977,968

    Sun UltraSPARC II_________450___2___1,458,333

    So here is another look at another benchmark to add to the too many benchmarks we already see. RC5 is another well respected benchmark in the industry as well. To be honest like the other Mac users said in this thread, I also didn’t purchase my Mac due to some story about it being a speed demon, I went due to other reasons. I will say that Macs (as well as Sun boxes) will outshine PCs clock for clock from my own experience and daily use of the machines at work and at home. I don’t care either way. I am more interested in the total package and Macs appeal to me more in this sense than PCs. I own both platforms, so I can speak without prejudice and/or lack of experience. A good number of Mac users have PCs as well and people don’t seem to realize this and try to come to some conclusion that Mac users don’t use PCs because of some inferiority complex or whatever they can think up as an argument, zealotry and/or excuse, that is not the case. Not everyone will agree on what is best and what is not… guess what I don’t care, I use a Mac and nobody is going to change my mind otherwise, end of story!
22. 2002-05-20 11:11 am

    Anonymous

    Note that a) the P-III is slower than the P-IV.

    Actually the P4 is the first Intel CPU to be slower per clockcycle than it’s predecessor. IIRC a PIII 1 GHz performs about the same as P4 1,3 GHz – raw power, no CPU-uniqe instruction sets utilized.
23. 2002-05-20 1:45 pm

    Anonymous

    Apple and Motoral are both part of AIM, right? The “I” is IBM. … So, why is Apple “married” to Motorala as its sole source of processors? Does IBM just flat-out only make POWER chips? Couldn’t they be talked into providing G4/G5 equivalents? That’s something I’ve never really understood about the workings of that alliance.
24. 2002-05-20 1:46 pm

    Anonymous

    I always enjoy friendly discussions on these boards. This is the first time, it comes from something I wrote. I figured I’d respond to some questions/statements all in one e-mail:

    Sean: The ATA busses in the Xserve are ATA/100 for a combined theoretical peak of 400MB/sec.

    No, the maximum theoretical bandwidth of the ATA system in Xserve, as quoted by Apple is 266 MB/sec, as shown on their website: http://www.apple.com/xserve/storage.html

    Sean:The RAID in most Macs is software RAID, but Apple has included a hardware RAID controller for the Xserve.

    Apple does not have a built-in hardware RAID on Xserve, but will ship a hardware RAID module later this year. To quote Apple’s documents on the Xserve disk system: “Apple Drive Modules integrate seamlessly with Mac OS X Server, delivering software RAID support and built-in remote monitoring capabilities.”

    Sean:All in all it is a good value considering that the G4 1GHz can run circles around the P4 2GHz

    Comparisons using mainstream software applications, not more abstract benchmarking system, do not hold up this performance claim in most operations. This is especially true in non-AltiVec enabled applications, or applications where AltiVec acceleration makes no sense.

    tantalic: What about the software?

    Without actually using all the different pieces of software on each of the systems, I did not feel it a point that I could investigate very deeply. I therefore mentioned the software, but did not do any in-depth reviews.

    strobe:until it ships why even have this discussion?!?!

    From looking at raw information, it is possible to project if there is any hope of the Xserve meeting expectation. This was the purpose of me writing this article. Many times I state that benchmarks and real world performance will be the final deciding factor, but that just looking at what the system is made of can give us an indication of if the Xserve has any prayer of living up to its hype.

    David McPaul: There are a number of reasons why server equipment is more expensive than expected but the biggest is redundancy. The compaq servers that are priced so outrageously have features such as dual power supplies, hot swap drive bays and most importantly on-site support. This is the sort of thing no company can do without.

    This argument doesn’t hold water. First of all, the low end configuration of the systems are not double or triple the cost, as it is once you start adding the additional processors and hard disks. Second of all, ever machine reviewed had hot swappable drives, hardware monitoring and other features for minimizing down time. I’m not sure about redundant power supplies, but if that was the reason for the extra cost, then it should have shown up in the bare-bones configuration as well. Lastly, the support contracts are not standard on Compaq or any servers, and are not in the prices that you see reviewed. Again this was done out of fairness, since there is not enough information on the websites for me to make a valid comparison.

    David McPaul:All in all though, these servers will fill a demand I think.

    I agree 100%
25. 2002-05-20 1:55 pm

    Anonymous

    in your phd program. but, the point is correct, that specific comparisons are necessary, though processor specific is a bit much. the whole point is comparing different processors.
26. 2002-05-20 2:32 pm

    Anonymous

    Someone said that the clock speed myth was a red herring. Then why is intel marketing itaniums at 800MHz as their most powerful processor?

    Intel hasn’t really been marketing itaniums as their most powerful CPU yet, in that the initial run (which was extremely low volume) was more oriented at porting applications.

    As much as everyone likes clock speed it can be misleading. The P4 has a 21 stage pipeline while the G4 has a 7 stage pipeline (shorter is better).

    That is a overgeneralization. I can build a single cycle core but it’s performance will be crap.

    One way of attempting an increase in clock speed is to increase the length of the pipeline. The problem is that each instruction has to go through each stage. This works beautifully if the computer is able to anticipate the instructions that will come after it, but most of the time this is not the case. The finished instruction will make everything in the pipeline irrevalent and the pipeline will be cleared and an instruction will start at the beginning. Having a full pipeline means that your processor is running most efficiently and a RISC architecture helps this.

    This is misleading. You assume Intel/AMD’s chips are still CISC and 1 CISC instruction per pipeline segmen. However, this hasn’t been true since the Pentium Pro cores. While the chips appear to be CISC, they are not internally. The pipelining is done on the RISC instructions needed to perform the operation.

    Processor design is very complicated and none of you understand anything about it (which is what Intel wants). GCC is absolutely atrocious when it comes to the PPC processor

    GCC is atrocious when it comes to any processor, and there exists compilers that regularly outperform it on any platform. However, I think apple is trying to achieve portablility, thus the big push for GCC.

    The fact is that people who know what they are talking about know the superiority of processors like PA-RISC, UltraSPARC III…

    Indeed, but the problem is those are unaffordable for the most part on the home system, tis why the argument keeps coming back to the horrible x86 line and motorola bumbling with it’s G4/G5 chips. As much as I’d like to buy an ultrasparc machine, I don’t see dropping a grand for a UltraSPARC IIe as a great investment. Nor do I see shelling out for a underperforming, undercached G4 as a valid one either.

    I don’t like the x86 processor, and I’m not bound to it by software, however, at this current moment it is the best investment (unfortunately).
27. 2002-05-20 2:53 pm

    Anonymous

    There’s no point in me saying whether G4 or P4 is faster. But the fact of the matter is a system built with x86 hardware is cheaper than Mac hardware, and if you play it right you can get as much performance if not more out of it. Clock for clock, the G4 may be better. But clock for clock, the G4 is more expensive. However, the cost to maintain an x86 based servre may be more than the cost to maintain a Mac server. But for the people who are capable, they see it as x86 with the advantage.

    Many people are saying SPEC is not a decent benchmarking tool, many more base their opinions on Photoshop benchmarks, which are completly ridiculous because Photoshop does not show consistent results even when testing over and over on the same machine. Rather than using technical factors to evaluate CPUs, I like to look at how much bang I can get for my buck. I think it’s great that Apple invests so much effort into designing their systems, that includes efficency, design of enclosures for quietness, and what not. But if they would but the same amount of effort into cranking out more power, we can honestly say that PowerPC is the dominant platform.

    I’m a little offended by Sean in his statement about most of us not having Bachelor or Masters degrees in comp sci. You don’t have to be a geninus to know what to do with your money. And if Sean says you do, then please explain why hundreds of thousands of employees with masters degrees and maybe more, working for a company that has billions of dollars, can screw up so bad like Microsoft?
28. 2002-05-20 2:57 pm

    Anonymous

    #1 Even the “free” one’s aren’t always free

    #2 Look at the net stats. Since the overwhelming majority of servers are *not* Linux, and the big ones that are probably have service contracts behind them, I’d say quite a few people pay for proprietary server OS’s.
29. 2002-05-20 3:01 pm

    Anonymous

    The ethernet cards are not on the same bus as the PCI bus and the hard disk bus. The listed bandwidth for the PCI/ATA bus is 566 MB. This can be seen in the graphic at:

    http://www.apple.com/xserve/architecture.html

    Their downloadable PDF file goes into some raw number descriptions too. I found it very informative.
30. 2002-05-20 3:02 pm

    Anonymous

    Sean, based on “Author’s Response #1” and the documentation it provides refuting three of your assertions, I wouldn’t brag too much about your educational superiority to everyone else here. Nobody knows everything, and that includes you.

    I also noticed that you can’t spell “ignorant” (your version is “ignorent”). Maybe you should have studied more English in college.

    Sorry all, but I can’t stand arrogant, insulting academic snobs.
31. 2002-05-20 3:17 pm

    Anonymous

    Xinet looked at some servers, including Mac OS X server (on a REGULAR G4, mind you, not on the new XServe rack-mount):

    http://xinet.com/benchmarks/benchmarks.2002/

    FWIW: The mac does pretty well.
32. 2002-05-20 3:46 pm

    Anonymous

    Glenn Sweeney: “Altivec is better than SSE but not as good as SSE2 (altivec dosent support 64 bit numbers) and ends up performing similarly per clock to 3dnow and sse. ”

    Actualy the new G4’s have a 128bit engine which is still better than SSE2, no matter how you look at it.

    Yes it does seem like the P4/K7 at their current speeds beat the current G4, but if they where running at the same speed it wouldn’t look to good for the intel world.

    Also Glenn: “Lets get to the point.. altivec is about multimedia …”

    No Altivec is about the whole experience, and is very important in the markets that Apple serves, much more so than SSE is to intel users.

    altivec isn’t comaprable to SSE in any way really because not only is it’s general computing power double that of SSE2 or 3dnow, it’s design also doesn’t require a cycle jump like that of the Pentium IV/III.

    To betcour: “overpriced”

    Why do people like you not get trough your head that you can’t compare a real car to a Kit Car.

    I can also build a space ship from russian parts that I can buy on eBay for very cheap.

    first of all I looked and looked and couldn’t even find a cheap 1U rackmount case anywhere. 2nd all of the energy necessary to power your dual Athlon puppy, could power 4 of these Xserves.

    PS look at these interesting benchmarks, not very positive for the Mac but important none the less.

    specificcally check out the osx tab.

    http://xinet.com/benchmarks/benchmarks.2002/
33. 2002-05-20 3:48 pm

    Anonymous

    I always hoped that the benchmarks would show the Xserve putting out comparable, or even better benchmarks. If these short benchmarks are any indication, it sounds like it might very well do just that!
34. 2002-05-20 4:13 pm

    Anonymous

    Howdy:

    Re: ealm

    Actually the P4 is the first Intel CPU to be slower per clockcycle than it’s predecessor. IIRC a PIII 1 GHz performs about the same as P4 1,3 GHz – raw power, no CPU-uniqe instruction sets utilized

    I think this is where we get into the “reverse clockcycle” myth. While the P4 doesn’t get as much work done per clock as the P3, especially if you are dealing with older code, it clocks far faster. So despite it being less efficient per tick, the P4 IS the faster CPU.

    Consider the original IBM POWER, which capped out at 60Mhz or so, but could manage a ridiculous amount of work per clock. A vastly less efficient UltraSPARC-IIe is the faster CPU “simply” because it can run at 600Mhz.

    SEAN> Benchmarks are never accurate unless comparing the same processor (just like clock speed).

    I’ve thought that the whole point of benchmarks was to allow someone to compare different processors, architectures, operating systems, compilers, etc.

    I have a Wang VS 5640 and a SPARCstation 20 sitting on the shelf next to me. I have a COBOL program of which I would like to run multiple iterations. It compiles on both systems with minimal effort. It takes eight minutes to run on the Sun and forty-eight on the Wang. The output produced is the same.

    Should I refrain from saying that for an application like that COBOL program, the Sun is much faster? After all, I’m comparing two completely different systems; the Sun uses a RISC SPARC running a Unix operating system, the Wang’s CPU is CISC with a somewhat 360ish instruction set running the decidedly non-Unix VS OS. Without the use of that COBOL benchmark, how can I compare their aptitude for my workload? On looks? Based on the fact that Wang is a way cooler name than Sun, and had marketing slogans like “My Wang works wonders”?

    Sean> SPEC is hichly influenced by intel in order to get good results for their processors

    Yes. They are also highly influenced by Sun, IBM, SGI, AMD, and scads of others. Remember that Intel doing well on SPEC is a very new thing. Aside from the Pentium Pro surprise, they were a perpetual bottom feeder until quite recently. This may have something to do with Intel being able to spend tons of money on CPU design and state-of-the-art fabs.

    There are some interesting discussions about the politics and decisions of SPEC on the comp.arch newgroup. Check out groups.google.com.

    Sean> (it isn’t multiprocessor enabled which everyone is under the impression of).

    Hopefully this just means the poor benighted masses who don’t read OSNEWS. We know that SPECrate is the multiprocessor equivalent.

    Sean> the Itanium is much faster than any P4. The problem is that people look to sources of information that are either partial or ignorent.

    Most of what I have read indicates otherwise, including from the Intel-dominated SPEC consortium. It is certainly possible that it’s innaccurate. What specific applications do so well against the P4? Why hasn’t the Itanium done very well in the marketplace so far, given its tremendous speed? Is everyone just waiting for McKinley (the osbourne effect)?

    Sincerely Yours,

    Jeffrey Boulier
35. 2002-05-20 5:09 pm

    Anonymous

    Seabass,

    You say that the new G4s have a 128-bit engine, but does it do double precision floats? The person who said that the G4 doesn’t do 64-bit numbers isn’t entirely accurate. I guess what he/she meant to say was: “The G4 can’t do double precision float numbers.” Because that was true when the G4 first came out, I don’t know about the new crop of G4s. In fact, the AltiVec extension had 128-bit registers from day 1. It just means that you can store up to 4 32-bit floats into each AltiVec register, it doesn’t mean AltiVec handles double precision floats.
36. 2002-05-20 5:37 pm

    Anonymous

    Has anybody verified the pricing on the Compaq DL360 G2 mentioned in the article. According to the HP website, a DL360 with dual 1.4P3’s, 512mb ram and an 18.2gb disk is only $4k. That’s still more than the XServe, but only about a third of what the article mentions.
37. 2002-05-20 5:41 pm

    Anonymous

    Nothing that I can see shows any change in the AltiVec units themselves. Just like MMX and 3DNow, they all do 32-bit floating point only.
38. 2002-05-20 5:48 pm

    Anonymous

    It’s funny, the G4 actually wins awards in the embedded world because of it’s speed being so high! Embedded does not automatically mean slow, Ericsson are using G4s in GPRS equiptment (base stations not the phones) and these will need a lot of raw power. They had previously done a multibillion dollar deal to use Alphas. Then Compaq killed the Alpha – Do’h!

    However put a G4 into an Apple and suddenly it’s swimming in treakle, why?

    I think there is firstly the memory bandwidth issue (which has now been taken care of) but also OS X seems to cause the system to slow down badly, the compiler will have an effect also (SPEC marks are strongly effected by compilers).

    I’d like to see some benchmarks run later in the year when 10.2 is out with some gcc 3.1 compiled code, I think the G4 will not do so badly then.

    >PS look at these interesting benchmarks, not very positive for the Mac

    >but important none the less. specificcally check out the osx tab.

    I did this is one thing it say:

    >On a per-processor basis, it was the fastest processor Xinet tested,

    thats not very positive?

    It also said this:

    >By itself, the UFS filesystem did not perform well, but

    >adding a RAID masked this behavior and greatly increased write >performance.

    Part of OS X holding the system back as I suspected…
39. 2002-05-20 6:44 pm

    Anonymous

    DrP wrote:

    Sorry all, but I can’t stand arrogant, insulting academic snobs.

    Don’t worry; I don’t think he’s an academic. You’ll note that our “esteemed” friend never claimed to have a degree, either, and I can’t imagine he would, since he made such blankets statements as “shorter is better” for pipelining. For the “non-academics,” anyone who saw the Macworld NY this past year or read the Ars Technica article a few months before that would have seen exactly where he got his information. The funny part is that he managed to mangle a simple concept while chastizing everyone else for being stupid.

    As for the Itanium, I know Intel’s going to push the new version soon enough. However, a few weeks ago one of the chief designers there came to my compilers class and was showing how some of the features hadn’t paid off very well (granted, it was a somewhat cursory introduction, but still…). So I don’t know if it’s exactly fair to assume that the previous generation of Itaniums are necessarily faster than the current generation of P4s. At the very least, our “enlightened” friend didn’t provide any evidence for his claim, which is hardly surprising.
40. 2002-05-20 7:34 pm

    Anonymous

    Wow, the marketeering hype is flying fast and furious here! Lots o’ allegations and spin, but nothing that would really benefit someone who would use something like that. So what is the real deal?

    Well, despite the weasel words and mumbo-jumbo, you’re not getting any bona fide UNIX system — you’re not going to be able to install and run your favorite AIX programs, for example. So what’s the point? The bottom line is that you’re either stuck with what software Apple has to offer, or if you go the free software route you’re paying more money for a platform that’s less capable than a commodity x86 box.

    Given the choice, I choose to spend less and get more. What kind of bonehead would want it the other way around? People who waste money stocking data centers will find the difference gets made up out of their salary after they’re fired. So what is it that would keep me from being out on the street if I recommended one of these boxes?

    Generic services like HTTP and FTP are easily done, but Linux/x86 wins hands down for the most bang for the buck. So what’s left? Application services? I don’t see any for Mac/OSX! Where are they? About the only thing that makes this box attractive is that it could replace the hodgepodge of Macs that litter a typical Mac shop’s “server room”.

    When it gets down to brass tacks, the only reason someone’s going to buy one of these things is because:

    1. They buy Apple stuff as a knee-jerk reaction.

    2. They buy stuff for people who buy Apple stuff (as a knee-jerk reaction).

    Not terribly exciting, is it?
41. 2002-05-20 8:16 pm

    Anonymous

    I’m going to have to take the blame on those Compaq prices. I went to their site, and sure enough was able to get the numbers I listed. There’s just one problem, I was looking at the “3 Pack” configuration…read three of them. Didn’t see that. Chalk it up to late night working after a long day. Scary thing is I double checked my numbers and made the same mistake twice! So, the new price range for the Compaq’s on the mid range server are $4077-4852, and on the high end $6420-8200. That doesn’t change the final conclusions, however. Sorry for the confusion.
42. 2002-05-20 8:42 pm

    Anonymous

    I think a major part of the equation that is missing is the SCSI RAID system Apple announced but won’t ship for a while. Jobs mentioned they will release a high performance SCSI RAID in a separate cabinet, I saw a picture somewhere, it looks about 3 or 4 units tall. If you go poke around on the Apple Store, there are interesting options to add high speed SCSI cards, obviously they’re primed to just plug in massive storage units. I think most people will just set up their own low cost RAIDs from whatever suits their application.

    Also there are interesting options for dual gigabit ethernet, and ISTR reading of fiber channel options coming soon. I want it!

    I’ve been playing with MacOS X for servers and I think it has absolutely great features. The Perl implementation is excellent. I’ve seen many great MacOS X sites running PHP, JSP and other tricky web services with ease. Apple has great ties to the open source BSD community and there have been some recent improvements to many core programs, even GCC itself, that will lead to some awesome improvements in the short term future. And don’t forget: no server taxes.
43. 2002-05-21 1:12 am

    Anonymous

    Wow, the marketeering hype is flying fast and furious here!

    You’ve done such a wonderful job of summarizing this board that you even summarized your own post.

    Let me humbly summarize some points that other people have made here and other places, about why people might want one of these things.

    1. Price. (Hardware) I defer to the article.

    2. Space. They’re tiny. And unlike so many x86 servers, they won’t overheat at max load. (My lab’s first rack of dual P2’s was effectively nonfunctional due to heat concerns. Yay segfaulting perl scripts!)

    3. Price. (Administration) Windows is expensive. Hiring a Linux or BSD administrator is expensive. Obviously Mac OS X won’t always be cheaper to administer, but will it be more expensive?

    Reasons not to buy an XServe:

    1. Doesn’t fit your needs. There is no magical uber-computer that fills every need and costs $0.42. That doesn’t mean that the XServe is useless.

    2. Macs make you puke. Understandable, but no self-respecting geek would make technical decision based on emotions.

    Sorry to be flamy. I get that way when I run into kneejerk posts that invoke “brass-tacks.” (Talk about stuck in the past…)
44. 2002-05-21 2:04 am

    Anonymous

    Hmm, I smell trolls from both camps, but this one caught my eye which hadn’t been discussed yet…

    Well, despite the weasel words and mumbo-jumbo, you’re not getting any bona fide UNIX system — you’re not going to be able to install and run your favorite AIX programs, for example.

    Can you prove this? Linux itself isn’t a bone-fide Unix system either, but it apparently has a lot of attractiveness lately in the business market. Also, just because Apple slapped on their own proprietary GUI to a modified Mach3 with BSD interfaces (calling it ‘xnu’), doesn’t mean you can’t recompile quite a few apps. I have a rather sizable swarm of non-OSX apps running daily under XFree86 4.2.0 or the CLI. Sure you can’t do a 1-to-1 port of some low-level apps, but that is true with the multitude of ‘Unix’ systems out there. Heck, I didn’t expect TinyFugue to compile straight over since the code is so old, but it works like a charm.

    So what’s left? Application services? I don’t see any for Mac/OSX! Where are they? About the only thing that makes this box attractive is that it could replace the hodgepodge of Macs that litter a typical Mac shop’s “server room”.

    Hmm, Application Services? Which ones are you looking for? I can probably point you to a place where to look or someone to complain to for not being on the ball and supporting their customers.

    When it gets down to brass tacks, the only reason someone’s going to buy one of these things is because:

    1. They buy Apple stuff as a knee-jerk reaction.

    2. They buy stuff for people who buy Apple stuff (as a knee-jerk reaction).

    Hmm, you have a point… that is if you are referring to the big guys. This thing isn’t really aimed at the big guys, but the small guys who can’t afford the staff required to keep a real Linux box supported with the more expensive IT guys. Apple’s key pushing factor is ease/cost of support, not for blowing everything else away in performance/dollar factor.

    Overall, I wouldn’t mind one, but that is because I don’t have the time to keep Linux or Win2k under my watchful eye and constantly tinkering it for my users. A little ease of use does go a long way to some people, even if there is a trade-off.

    Since you like raw power and are used to something other than what Apple is now offering, be my guest to use what you want. Apple is offering a choice, not a demand. You can take it as it is or leave it. Just don’t bash people like me for our choices in computing, especially since I haven’t done the same, and have given money to both major commercial players (OSX/WinXX), and worked with the major free player (Linux).
45. 2002-05-21 4:00 am

    Anonymous

    (I’m speaking here as a SysAdmin, primarily of FreeBSD and Sun boxes, who uses OS X on a TiBook for most things. This is why I wouldn’t buy an Xserve for general purpose use.)

    No ECC RAM. This is one of the biggest omissions IMHO. As far as I’m concerned, without ECC it’s not even in the running.

    Only 2GB of RAM. 2G isn’t much, these days, particularly if they want to be moving into the Oracle market. I would have expected 4G minimum.

    No SCSI option. I’m far from a SCSI bigot, but at the end of the day if boatloads of disk I/O and random-access disk patterns are what you have, SCSI is faster. If all the local disks are going to be used for is booting the machine or perhaps some low-end fileserving, then ATA disks are fine – but it would have been nice to see an option on the high-end machine to swap the ATA drives for SCSI drives. I consider this particularly relevant to Apple’s apparently upcoming foray into Oracle territory.

    No hardware RAID. Again, I consider this a rather large omission as it *seriously* limits the amount of “useful” disk space available. AfAIK OS X doesn’t do software RAID5, so you’re limited to either a RAID1+0 (with some space subtracted from each drive for the system, since OS X won’t be able to boot from a RAID0 – or a RAID5 for that matter, should it be added to Jaguar) or an optimised-for-failure RAID0 (again, losing some space to the system). Even one of those halfway-hardware-RAID chips put on many PC motherboards would have been sufficient, as it at least manages to make all the devices appear as a single drive to the OS, but ideally they would have used one of the existing “real” IDE RAID cards like 3ware make. From where I’m standing, these things top out at around 200 – 220GB of usable space. Other people may be prepared to risk the fourfold increase in risk by using RAID0 over all the drives, but I wouldn’t be.

    Apart from those things, I think the Xserve is an ok deal, depending on your needs. The places I expect to see them popping up are:

    * Data-processing clusters, in which case my RAID requirements above are largely moot (the ECC comment is still very relevant though). They’ll be a good deal for this, assuming the required processing benefits greatly from Altivec. If not, a bunch of PowerEdge 1650s are a better deal.

    * Low-end fileserving. Eg, to the small group of Mac users we have here, or for a small company. In this case the large amount of storage for the relatively low price is pretty good – although my above comments about the RAID aspect should be taken into account. Additionally, the (undoubtedly simple and excellent) management tools will be a real winner here.

    For general purpose use though (eg file & print serving to a range of different machines) I’ll stick with my PowerEdge 1650s running FreeBSD. On that note, I’ll just point out a few things about the 1650s (my personal favourite 1U machine) that I see a lot of people making these comparisons neglecting:

    Price. They start cheaper and mostly stay cheaper.

    Processing power. For some things, the 1Ghz G4 is going to be faster. For most things, the 1.4Ghz P3 is going to be faster. For the most things, however, CPU power is largely irrelevant as the tasks are IO bound – in which case the SCSI on the 1650 gives it the edge.

    Dual power supplies. Not essential, but nice to have.

    Up to 4G RAM and ECC. It might be slower PC133, but even that is going to be faster than swapping. Plus it has ECC – essential for any non-toy server IMHO.

    Hardware RAID. Very important – bumps the “usable” amount of disk space up to about 200G (3x73G drives) which puts it in the same ballpark as the Xserve in terms of “usable” storage. Given the 128MB of cache included, also nullifies most of the overhead of RAID5.

    Free slots. Even with hardware RAID and dual GB ethernet, the 1650 still has two 64 bit/66Mhz slots free. I’m not quite sure what Apple are thinking with their combo AGP/PCI slot…

    Support. The standard support with the 1650 is four hour onsite support. To get that level with the Xserve costs an extra US$950. I’m not sure what Apple’s “standard” support is (anyone ?), but bringing the 1650 back to “3 years next business day” knocks nearly US$1800 off the price.

    I banged together a 1650 that I consider equivalent to Apple’s high-end offerings to compare prices:

    1650 w/dual 1.4GHz P3, 2GB RAM, 3x73GB 10kRPM drives, RAID controller, 3yrs SILVER support (4hours onsite) : US$7873

    Xserve w/dual 1Ghz G4s, 2GB RAM, 4x120GB drives, Applecare premium: US$7799

    1650 advantages: more expandability, much faster drive subsystem, ECC RAM.

    Xserve advantages: faster processors if you use something benefiting from Altivec, potentially easier administration.

    Personally, I think the 1650 is a better machine for most tasks. But Apple has done fairly well with the Xserve as a first go. I look forward to the second generation which will hopefully address my concerns above.
46. 2002-05-21 7:22 am

    Anonymous

    One other problem which I haven’t seen mentioned too often is the filesystem. If you have a 480GB volume (foolishly assuming RAID-0) and you are the least bit concerned about downtime, you are probably going to want a journaling filesystem to avoid the painfully long fscks you will have to endure if the volume were ever to go down hard.

    SGI offers XFS for both Irix and Linux. On the Sun side of things, there’s VxFS, offered as a 3rd party solution, but contrast that to Apple, which has no journaled filesystem solution in any respect. Your choices are UFS or HFS+. The UFS side of things doesn’t even offer more modern conveniences such as soft updates.

    Worst of all, Apple has Dominic Giampaolo, yet they haven’t produced even rumors of having a journaled filesystem. How do they expect people to use these as storage servers when their filesystem choices are sub-par?
47. 2002-05-21 10:50 am

    Anonymous

    Actually Apple does support multiple file systems and is flexible to different configurations…

    Local: HFS/HFS+, DOS/FAT, UFS, UDF, ISO

    Network: AFP, NFS, SMB/CIFS, WebDAV

    I think they have covered a pretty good range if you ask me. I think the journaled file system thing will comes, don’t expect it overnight since they just hired Dominic Giampaolo not so long ago.
48. 2002-05-21 2:03 pm

    Anonymous

    Tsk, Tsk.

    Silly thing to say in a field dominated by non-degree types. Good way to wind up with trouble. You can be a sheepskin snob, but I’d recommend keeping it under wraps.

    My finest engineer regularly stuns highly educated R&D types, and he has a high school diploma. He gets paid well, and deserves it. I couldn’t run my high-performance, elite shop without him.

    The best degrees are sometimes the Baccalaureate from The School of Hard Knocks, followed by postgraduate work at The College of Getting the Shit Kicked Out of You.

    Oh. And exactly 16 angels can dance on the head of a pin, as long as it’s a big pin, and the angels are small.
49. 2002-05-21 2:39 pm

    Anonymous

    I wonder if that will coincide with the release of OS X 10.2 or with the hardware RAID option?
50. 2002-05-21 3:12 pm

    Anonymous

    why do people think apple’s will have easier administration, it’s not as if their new management console has been in a proven position for a number of years, i’m very hesitant to even consider a system that looks like a giant kludge, seperate channels for everything is simply over engineering a problem that’s been sufficiently handled elsewhere for quite some time. Apple is struggling to keep up, they see a trend with the adoption of linux and squarely punch it in the nose with their latest offerings, too bad the price is so high otherwise it might actually be adopted more quickly. Then again I’m not sure that’s a good thing at all.
51. 2002-05-21 3:28 pm

    Anonymous

    Just for fun I ran a test with gcc 3.1 on an IBM Winterhawk, and compared that with the results of the same program compiled with the IBM’s xlc compiler. The test program was a bytecode interpreter written in C, running 10000 iterations of the dhrystone benchmark.

    At highest optimisation the xlc compiled interpreter managed 950..1000 dhrystones/s, and the gcc compiled interpreter was about 50 dhrystones/s slower.

    Not bad, I’d say.
52. 2002-05-21 5:20 pm

    Anonymous

    Bascule: On the Sun side of things, there’s VxFS

    As of Solaris 7, Sun’s implementation of UFS comes with journaling as well. Just add “logging” to the options section of your vfstab’s UFS filesystem entries.
53. 2002-05-22 10:17 am

    Anonymous

    I see that some folks have answered my post, so I’ll try to answer theirs.

    Anonymous lists several reasons why we should buy the Xserve. Anonymous quoted me, so presumably read my post. But Anonymous apparently didn’t notice that such ostensible reasons have already been shot down.

    Apparently Anonymous isn’t aware that the 1RU form factor isn’t an Apple invention. Sorry, but Apple is the Johnny-come-lately to a market full of 1RU boxes, with many quality boxes at better prices.

    Anonymous doesn’t appear to appreciate that when it comes to price, lower is better. The Xserve is more costly for what it offers, compared to the commodity x86 competition.

    And then there’s the RDF falsehood that claims that Apple products are somehow much less expensive to maintain than anything else. I read falsehoods like this one phrased in the “everybody knows that…” style, leading the uninformed reader to believe that the claim is a fact, by appealing to ignorance. Nobody wants to appear unknowledgeable, and so on the receiving end, folks will happily nod and stipulate to what they don’t know to be wrong, which when you know nothing is pretty much everything. (On the giving end, there is no shortage of people who are perfectly willing to show the world just how little they know, as evidenced by the ceaseless amateur rumblings on CPU design, and wild speculation based on a single line of advertising copy.)

    I have little doubt that the “easier to maintain” fallacy is rooted in the “easier to use” fallacy. Back in the days when MS-DOS ruled, Macs may have been easier to use in comparison to DOS PCs, but those days are long gone. These days it’s nothing more than a myth, having never been proved or otherwise legitimized. I think that the reality is that Mac users have a lot of trouble recognizing the WIMP, desktop metaphor on any other product than a Mac. They fail to understand that 95% of people have no trouble adjusting to a slightly different desktop that employs the same metaphor. But that’s neither here nor there in this case.

    Administering network services is a completely different animal, and the old unsubstantiated claim about ease of use in one area certainly doesn’t carry over to a completely different one. One could be a naive and foolish consumer, and simply believe whatever they are told. I, of course, will not take that route. Because of this, I am lead to question the assertion. And what I find is that there’s nothing to back up the claim.

    Tough luck, Anonymous. Perhaps one day you’ll learn that plastic “flashy trash” is not the stuff of quality, and reconsider your slight of things that you consider to be past.

    Krevinek wants me to prove that OSX is not a UNIX system. Nice try, but the burden of proof is on the claimant. Let Apple and all their shills prove that it is. They cannot, and I know why. If you don’t know, then you would be better off keeping mum, and perhaps learning something, instead of waging a bellicose fight against reailty.

    Krevinek goes on to say that Linux isn’t a recognized UNIX system either. Well Krevinek, I know that, which is why I never claimed that it was. Lay off the red herrings, k?

    If I’m going to plunk down a few grand for a Rolex watch, I’m going to want it to be a real Rolex watch — one that I can take into a Rolex dealership to have repaired, one that I can sell for a good price if I want to. A fake Rolex doesn’t offer any of those benefits. Similarly, Apple’s misuse of the UNIX trademark doesn’t help me one bit. As a consumer, I’m inclined to get my own best deal, and not to act as a charity for dishonest vendors.

    Krevinek also promotes the “ease of administration” fallacy, using buzzwords like “tinker” to imply that bona fide administrators don’t really know what they’re doing. Well Krevinek, if you have to have Appple to dumb it down for you, then you’re not one to talk, are you?

    My conclusion remains the same. Once you strip away all of the sophistry and other fallacies that surround Apple products, you find that the Xserve is not a very good deal. If you’re an untalented person who runs a shop of Apple products, then the Xserve is the natural choice. Most of the “benefit” is really the lock-in to Apple’s proprietary way of doing things, though. Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.

    For those who don’t suffer from xenophobia, I believe that a cheaper NAS box or server appliance would do the same job better and for less. For those who can administer their way out of a paper bag, something less proprietary and more standards-based is the better choice. I try and try, but I can’t see any legitimate market for this product other than those foolish enough to spend money on the Apple brand and nothing more.

    Anonymous wrote “There is no magical uber-computer that fills every need and costs $0.42. That doesn’t mean that the XServe is useless.” No, there is no magical computer, just the quite real ones that all do pretty much the same thing. That means that price is the only consideration. the Xserve may not be useless, but when you can pay less and get the same value, you’re a fool. If you’re doing it with your employer’s money, you’re also fired.
54. 2002-05-22 12:41 pm

    Anonymous

    Like with all things time will tell. There are going to be businesses out there who will purchase and make great use of the XServer and there will be those who wont. There are going to be those who will find fault with this unit no matter how wonderful it is and there are going to be those who will defend it no matter how bad it is.

    Sybase and Oracle are releasing the enterprise version of their databases sometime this Fall for OS X. Borland already has PowerJ for OS X. OS X is the only version of UNIX that MS Office has been nativley ported to. Despite what many people belive, tt is my belief that we will eventually see small and medium sized companies switch over to this platform.
55. 2002-05-22 4:48 pm

    Anonymous

    I remember reading about Apple’s first attempt on

    an UNIX-like OS, called A/UX. Anyway, it’s hard

    to imagine an Apple computer running an IBM operating

    system
56. 2002-05-22 5:50 pm

    Anonymous

    I’ve gotten a few e-mails claiming that the Network server mentioned in the beginning of the article probably ran A/UX instead of AIX. Apple made A/UX back when the Macintosh platform was based off of the Motorola 68000-series processor. This OS was never ported over to the PowerPC platform, which the network server was based off of. IBM on the other hand, does have AIX for PowerPC, so it was a logical choice for Apple.

    To make it simple, here is the text of platform support from the A/UX FAQ:

    I found an A/UX FAQ, to answer that A/UX on PPC question http://www.faqs.org/faqs/aux-faq/part1/ :

    G.02) What’s the minimum system I need (CPU, disk and RAM) to run A/UX?

    ———————————————————————- —

    A/UX 3.0 works on the MacII (with PMMU _or_ 68030 upgrade with FDHD ROM’s

    installed), IIx, IIcx, IIci, IIfx, SE/30, IIsi (with 68882 chip) and the

    Quadra 700|900|950 computers. A/UX 3.0.1 (and later) adds support for the

    Q800 and Centris Machines (the Centrises _must_ have the real 68040 w/FPU –

    See Q&A #G.03). A/UX will run on the Quadra 610 and 650s (recall that A/UX

    requires the _real_ 68040 chip!) with a little bit of work:

    You should make a copy of the A/UX Install Boot floppy and then copy the

    Enabler for the Q610|650 onto this copy. You then boot up from this floppy

    and install A/UX as usual. Finally, you’ll need to copy the Q610|650

    Enabler onto the A/UX MacPartition (or whatever MacOS disk you will use

    when starting up your Mac and booting A/UX); do this by first booting off

    a boot floppy or boot CD and then copy the Enabler over. You do _not_ need

    to make any changes to the A/UX System Folder (i.e. the System Folder used

    under A/UX).

    A/UX will NOT run on the PowerMacs, any AV machines, any PowerBooks (or

    portables), the LCs, the Duos, the ClassicII, the Q605 or on the Quadra

    630… It is recommended that you NOT run A/UX 3.1.1 on the II, IIx, IIcx or

    SE/30 machines, since their MacOS-compatibility is unreliable under 3.1.1.

    Recall that A/UX _is_ UNIX and thus contains some very hardware specific

    drivers. It’s for this reason (and not Apple not doing things correctly) that

    A/UX won’t work on newly released platforms. To support a new platform, at

    least _some_ work (and possibly extensive work in some cases) must be done.

    If you really want to cut it close, 8MB RAM and an ENTIRE 80MB hard disk will

    just make it. You’ll have little room for user files (unless you clear out

    some space by removing /games and maybe /catman) and depending on your

    workload, may suffer from low performance (due to swapping… you may even

    encounter the infamous swap messages

    A much better system would be 16MB of RAM and about 200MB of disk space.

    This would give you much more room to grow as well as sufficient RAM to

    increase your performance (assuming that you tune some kernel parameters).

    All in all, more RAM is prefered: 20MB (or more) is ideal.
57. 2002-05-22 5:53 pm

    Anonymous

    >>Anonymous doesn’t appear to appreciate that when it comes to price, lower is better. The Xserve is more costly for what it offers, compared to the commodity x86 competition.<<

    You obviously haven’t done your homework!

    >>Krevinek wants me to prove that OSX is not a UNIX system. Nice try, but the burden of proof is on the claimant. Let Apple and all their shills prove that it is. They cannot, and I know why. If you don’t know, then you would be better off keeping mum, and perhaps learning something, instead of waging a bellicose fight against reailty.<<

    And I guess you’re about to tell me that Windows XP is a totally new operating system built on ‘N’ew ‘T’echnology right?! Your post was useless FUD with no factual statements other than MS-DOS ruled the PC desktop way too long, but I can imagine that you’re an average zealot that would just say about anything stupid to get attention!

    ’nuff said!
58. 2002-05-22 7:58 pm

    Anonymous

    hi:

    I liked the careful separation of stuff that’s known (like pricing and megahertz ratings) from stuff that’s believed (like performance consequences) and thought the article very thorough overall.

    However, there are two things that should be added: in defence of Sun and in support of Unix (whether Darwin, Linux, or Solaris.

    1- Sun’s V100 isn’t really a blade server. There’s one coming and you can see a prototype by pulling a CPU board out of a V880, but the V100 isn’t it. In either single or

    (unadvertised but extant) dual CPU models the V100 is an entry level toy designed for pseudo embedded deployments and so Sun can claim to be cheaper than Windows PCs. My expectation is that the blade server will have dual 1.4GHZ US3i chips and sell for marginally less than the Dell Poweredge but, of course, I don’t know this for sure.

    2- I think the author should have included the full cost of the base Operating System with the hardware. You cannot run

    the box without an OS and people who want to compare working systems have to take OS costs into account. To make the comparisons valid the article should have used the cost of a box that works, otherwise you unfairly penalize companies like Apple that don’t charge separately for it. Yes, that would have created more rows to distinguish Lintel from Wintel and shown Wintel to be a bad deal, but so what? it is a bad deal.
59. 2002-05-22 8:18 pm

    Anonymous

    I was torn between putting the OS cost in and not putting it in. I decided in the end to leave it out to avoid criticisms of biasing the Apple solution by artificially inflating the software cost. I do state that entry level Windows options are between $700 (Server) and $3500 (Advanced Server). Believe it or not, I still got flack about the OS integration, even though I didn’t put it in. If I had put it in, and assumed that they were all running as Windows as file servers, then none of the Intel platforms would have ever won. I guess either way is unfair, but at least this way we could study the hardware trade-off a little bit better. If I had the software configurations, I would have loved to compare the costs of those as well!
60. 2002-05-23 4:38 am

    Anonymous

    While I am impressed that this disscussion is rather calm, I dont understand why this is a PCvMAC. here a company(Apple) is introducing a new U1 server. All we really need to know is; Will Apples server have what people want at the right price. looks to me that the answer short of seeing any hands on reviews is “yes”. You should look at this particlular Apple product more like any other compnay offering a server. There are several companies using different chipsets.

    how am I going wrong looking at it in this fashion?
61. 2002-05-23 4:52 am

    Anonymous

    Speed, since you are so knowledgeable about how OS X is not a UNIX based system, please inform us why that is. So far you have not supported your claims anymore than Anonymous has his.

    Also, regarding the costs. Has everyone ignored what Hank stated in his article? Add on the cost for the common OS and applications used in the server world to the PC systems and then see how all the systems compare.

    A lot of you also seem to be neglecting what markets the Xserve is aimed at. You can’t compare apples to oranges (no pun intended). Think about who the systems are aimed at and what purposes they will primarily be used for.
62. 2002-05-23 4:58 pm

    Anonymous

    The article may make no mention of it, but Apple is offering several support plans for these servers. I believe they range from $950 (for 24/7 phone support and 4 hour max. on-site support) to $2799 (for the same basic service you get for $950 plus all kinds of priority support, tools, and training guides). I have a feeling these may have been left out because they were not included with the base price of the server. You can read more about it at http://www.apple.com/xserve/support.html.
63. 2002-05-23 7:57 pm

    Anonymous

    I see that Anonymous and pt_bandit are unhappy about some things, but since they can’t argue with the truth, they really have nothing to say. Sorry Anonymous, but your mudslinging isn’t going to alter the fact that Apple products are a poor value. And if you’re going to get angry at someone about that fact, get angry at Steve Jobs, not me.

    Some have noticed that every Apple product announcement is accompanied by an Apple vs. PC flamefest. This is not by accident. Apple actually has people on the payroll whose job it is to organize their religious followers to shill in public fora like this one. Ironically, Apple could have spent that money on improving their product line. But what we have instead is a group of poeple who all shout “what about Windows” when they can’t explain a weakness in their own product line.

    Witness the second part of Anonymous’ personal attack, one that tries to evade the fact that Apple is marketing OSX as UNIX when it is not. pt_bandit takes the sheeply tack of repeating the same issue that I had just disposed of. Ho hum. The thing is that I’m not selling any product. I have nothing to prove here!

    OSX is not UNIX because OSX is not UNIX. If it were a bona fide UNIX system, there would be a way to prove that it was. But it’s not, so one cannot disprove a non-event. For example, I couldn’t prove that fairies don’t exist. But that inability hardly means that fairies actually do exist! In the end, those who want us all to believe in fairies, will o’ the wisps, and other mythical tales can shoulder the burden of convincing us (or failing to, as the case may be).

    But what are the implications of all these marketeering shenanigans? Well first of all, Hank is trying to make Apple’s product appear more valuable than it really is because of the free software that comes with it, claiming “standard Unix utilities” and other nonsense. The truth is that you can get Apache for just about any OS that you want! What is being marketed as some mystical trait of “Unix” is in fact just free software that anybody can obtain and use, on any platform. And since on the IA-32 platform there’s TOTALLY FREE Linux, chock full of everything that OSX offers and more (except for Apple’s little-used proprietary stuff, of course), the alleged price advantage of OSX turns out to be a sham.

    Since pt_bandit implies having knowledge of Apple’s marketing plans, perhaps pt_bandit would care to spell out what markets the Xserve is supposed to be for. Lord knows I tried to figure it out, but couldn’t find any good reason to buy one of the things. If there are good reasons, please tell us. I’m soooooooo tired of slogging through the fallacious copy.
64. 2002-05-23 9:21 pm

    Anonymous

    “I’m soooooooo tired of slogging through the fallacious copy.”
65. 2002-05-23 9:48 pm

    Anonymous

    I have to say that you are way out in left field and you should be writing science fiction novels, not posting FUD on something you know nothing about.

    “Sorry Anonymous, but your mudslinging isn’t going to alter the fact that Apple products are a poor value.”

    Well that is my view of Microsoft products, but being that opinions are like arseholes and everybody has one, I’ll let you wipe your own arse!

    “This is not by accident. Apple actually has people on the payroll whose job it is to organize their religious followers to shill in public fora like this one.”

    Now this one is really funny… you are creative in your words of FUD and disillusion that goes way left field and has no credible meaning to fact, only bias.

    Face it, you’re a zealot only jealous by something you have no understanding of, like you can’t stand the fact that Apple is something different and doesn’t follow the lemmings and just doesn’t seem right to you, or maybe it’s because your friends dislike it because it’s cool to do so and you just tag along for the ride. The problem is that your words are so predictable that they show the same pattern as other zealots like you only proves that anything you say is worth nothing and only tarnishes any credibility for those who actually have something worthy to say!

    “And since on the IA-32 platform there’s TOTALLY FREE Linux, chock full of everything that OSX offers and more (except for Apple’s little-used proprietary stuff, of course), the alleged price advantage of OSX turns out to be a sham.”

    WOW, there is TOTALLY FREE Linux available for PPC platform, so what’s your point?!

    ’nuff said!
66. 2002-05-23 11:24 pm

    Anonymous

    I have to say that you are way out in left field and you should be writing science fiction novels, not posting FUD on something you know nothing about.

    Too bad you can’t say anything about the topic. Why is that?

    Well that is my view of Microsoft products, but being that opinions are like arseholes and everybody has one, I’ll let you wipe your own arse!

    Just as I predicted! First you attack me, now you attack Microsoft. And still nothing to say about the Xserve. What’s the matter, can’t think of a single good thing to say about it?

    Now this one is really funny… you are creative in your words of FUD and disillusion that goes way left field and has no credible meaning to fact, only bias.

    OK, then you can explain what Guy Kawasaki does for a living, and what the purpose of the EvangeList is.

    Face it, you’re a zealot only jealous by something you have no understanding of

    What am I a zealot of? What am I jealous of? What do I not understand? I think you’re not doing very well as a mind-reader.

    like you can’t stand the fact that Apple is something different and doesn’t follow the lemmings

    Different in comparison to what? Are you trying to claim that I’m angry that Apple isn’t in the wildlife business?

    or maybe it’s because your friends dislike it because it’s cool to do so

    Who exactly are you referring to? Names, please. Or does your crystal ball get fuzzy at that point?

    The problem is that your words are so predictable

    LOL, you mean like your use of “Microsoft” and “lemmings”? Pot, kettle, black!

    WOW, there is TOTALLY FREE Linux available for PPC platform, so what’s your point?!

    Ah…the point is that the same thing can be done for less on IA-32. Haven’t you been paying any attention???
67. 2002-05-24 12:13 am

    Anonymous

    Most everything you wrote is a half truth, which you use to create false premises.

    OS X is UNIX based.Apple has never said it was UNIX.

    So your ‘point’ about OS X is not UNIX is true to an extent, but so what?

    Kawasaki hasn’t been a mac evangelist since OS 7 and 8 days.

    He’s busy with Garage.com.
68. 2002-05-24 1:28 am

    Anonymous

    Anonymous, if you had found any fault with anything that I wrote, you would have been able to point it out specifically. Because you attack me, the person, without ever touching on anything that I have written, you’re making it plain that you are unhappy with the truth, but you do know it to be true. Instead of making dishonest responses that try to deny the truth, why don’t you join the discussion or just go away?

    Apple’s weasel words are not valid, according to the owner of the UNIX name. It’s obvious that Apple is trying to ride the coattails of UNIX, so trying to say that it’s not happening when there’s so much evidence to the contrary is futile. Convoluted and contrary arguments may help some lawyers in the court of law, but it will not help Apple in the court of public opinion.

    So what? Pay attention to what has already been written! OSX is not a UNIX system, and there is no UNIX software that is binary compatible with OSX. That means that the claims about being able to run UNIX software are false. And one more alleged reason to buy OSX turns out to be fallacious.
69. 2002-05-24 5:50 am

    Anonymous

    >>So what? Pay attention to what has already been written! OSX is not a UNIX system, and there is no UNIX software that is binary compatible with OSX. That means that the claims about being able to run UNIX software are false. And one more alleged reason to buy OSX turns out to be fallacious.<<

    OS X is UNIX plain and simple, I use it in a UNIX environment along with Solaris and Linux, and in fact runs UNIX software, so your claims are false!

    As for whatever you said in your post above regarding me is absurd and you’re only drawing at straws. I have already given my opinion on the Xserve in previous threads and I am not repeating myself. I also did not attack Microsoft as you claim, I only made an opinion as you did regarding Apple, unless you are admitting that you’re attacking Apple?

    Saying OS X isn’t UNIX is almost like saying “Windows isn’t Windows”, but that would fit your hypothesis due to some incompatibilities between the different Windows breeds, it’s just not the case and would not go well with the Windows faithful! If you do not like Apple or its products, why are you even on this thread? Do you see me over in the Microsoft/Windows threads spreading FUD and other nonsense? I didn’t think so!
70. 2002-05-24 12:13 pm

    Anonymous

    OS X is UNIX plain and simple, I use it in a UNIX environment along with Solaris and Linux, and in fact runs UNIX software, so your claims are false!

    I see your claim repeated over and over, but I still don’t see OSX on the UNIX list. Frankly I don’t believe you have the slightest idea what makes up a UNIX system. Your misuse of the word “environment” in that particular context proves that you’re far from an expert on the subject! Clearly you’re talking trash. And since you’re the one making the claims about OSX, you are the bearer of falsehood here!

    I also did not attack Microsoft as you claim

    Well, if you’re trying to use weasel words to save yourself from that embarrassing gaffe, I will accept that you are a different person with a different IP address going by the CattBeMac moniker. I was replying to the comment from —.speed.planet.nl, and recognize that 212.153.26.— may signify a different person. But in that case, you have no cause to take offense, do you? After all, if I’m talking about someone else… You can’t have your cake and eat it too, when it comes to representing your identity. Seems that you painted yourself into a corner with that one!

    Saying OS X isn’t UNIX is almost like saying “Windows isn’t Windows”

    Almost, if all you’re doing is counting words. But what I’m talking about is the meaning, not petty semantics. Windows is Windows. Microsoft owns Windows, and has the right to call whatever it wants “Windows”. Apple does not own UNIX, and has no right to call OSX “UNIX”. You may not like it, but it’s still true.

    Do you see me over in the Microsoft/Windows threads spreading FUD and other nonsense? I didn’t think so!

    A lie is a lie, no matter whether you cross your fingers, stand on one foot, or go “over in the Microsoft/Windows threads” to tell it.
71. 2002-05-24 1:33 pm

    Anonymous

    Wow, this is is stupid debate! In order for a system to “really” be Unix, that means that it must be based off of source code that is directly from the owner of the Unix name? Better still, all versions of Unix are supposedly binary compatible? I’d love to know how everyone got around platform dependant issues to pull that off. Speed, is the baseline for binary compatibile that it must run on the current system *and* PDP-11’s, the original Unix machine? Instead, is binary compatibility that it must run on any processor architecture that a Unix system is ever compiled for? Of course which version of Unix do you consider to be *the* Unix. Are we talking about System-V based Unix, BSD-4.3 Unix, or do we again go back to the good ol’ days of the very first Unix source code?

    There is no one Unix vendor that everyone licenses from and conforms to. I’m sure you knew that though. Still howeve,r since OS X is based off of NeXTStep, it would good to point out the NeXT did license the BSD source code and used that to create the BSD layer around the Mach kernel back in the 80’s, when the NeXT operating system was first made. For those who aren’t aware of exactly how convoluted the term “Unix” is, how about a little chart of the different versions of Unix from the very beginning through now. This link has been posted at OSNews before, and as the author said even *this* is a simplified version.

    http://perso.wanadoo.fr/levenez/unix/

    Notice that even Linux (which really stands for Linux Is Not Unix) and QNX (definately *not* Unix) is on this list along with OS X and all the FreeBSD derivatives, which of course aren’t *official* Unix either. Stop trying to drum up some conspiracy theory by playing naming symantics. Are you complaining because they wrapped BSD layer around a Mach kernel, instead of having a direct BSD-based kernel? Do you think the average user knows what a kernel is? Do you think the average user cares? Since Apple’s marketing is to the average user, I don’t see any problem with marketing departments dumbing down technical details for non-technophiles.

    However, lets look at the above OS branch hierarchy to see how we got to OS X, from the current OS-X down, since we don’t want to skimp on technical details like the Apple marketing department does (I’ll skip version numbers):

    -MacOS X 10.x comes from MacOS X Beta and DP

    -MacOS X Beta/DP comes from a merger of Rhapsody and Mach 4

    -Mach4 comes from Mach3 and Rhapsody comes from OpenStep 4

    -OpenStep 4 comes from NeXTStep

    -NeXTStep originally comes from merging 4.3BSD and Mach 2.x

    -Mach 2.x is a branch off of 4.2BSD

    -Both 4.2BSD (Mach base) and 4.3BSD (NeXTStep base) come from the merger of 2BSD and UNIX 32V. (circa 1979)

    -Both 2BSD and UNIX 32V BSD’s legacy is the “UNIX Time sharing system V6” (c.1976)

    -The “UNIX Time sharing system v6” shares source all the way back to UNICS, the original UNIX.

    So now that I’ve shown you how OS X is very much a UNIX operating system, inherentence speaking, could you please tell us why it isn’t?
72. 2002-05-24 9:02 pm

    Anonymous

    Hank, I was under the impression that you were the Hank Grabowski who wrote the article. But clearly you’re pretty clueless about the subject matter, so I’m wondering what the deal is. While I’m not sure who you are, I do know that your wacky notions are all wrong. No, that’s not what makes UNIX systems! You must be thinking of Java or something. Your slothful inductions about NeXT prove nothing. An elaborate graph fron some guy in France is hardly a definitive document on UNIX. Linux is named for Linus Torvalds, not what you claim. And semantics has nothing to do with the maker of popular antivirus software.

    Sorry, but your flim-flam has failed. OSX is not a UNIX system. What’s ironic is that if Apple devoted a small farction of the effort it puts into deceiving the public into improving its products, it could have made OSX compliant!
73. 2002-05-24 9:45 pm

    Anonymous

    Are you suffering from some sort of identity crisis here, you’re not very sure of who you are talking to and cannot distinguish from posts and IP addresses?

    Hank gave a well documented explanation to the different roots of UNIX, something that you did not provide to backup your claims, other than the repeat of “OS X is not a UNIX system”! Oh and my post above was not trash… I actually do program around Solaris and Linux and that is what I meant by UNIX ‘environment’ since that is what I am surrounded by in my control center 50+ hours a week. I am also not 2 different people, I work in the commercial space industry for a company based in Europe, so I posted from 2 different locations (imagine that)! I have also been working around UNIX/VMS systems since 1993 and have been around several different variants of platforms. I do not consider myself an expert on anything really, but I am knowledgeable enough about UNIX to do my job proficiently.

    I am not sure of what your problem is, I can tell you that your conspiracy theory is a flaw and is only based on personal opinion premeditated by some sort of zealotry and/or overly biased assertions.

    You make the call!
74. 2002-05-24 10:10 pm

    Anonymous

    I am in fact the author of the article that this message board hangs off of. I am certainly not an “expert” on Unix. I do however know how to research what I’m talking about. Let me address some issues you brought up in your last statement:

    You mock my statements on “binary compatibility” for a test of whether a system is Unix or not. However this is *exactly* what you stated in previous posts! To quote you directly:

    “OSX is not a UNIX system, and there is no UNIX software that is binary compatible with OSX.”

    “…you’re not getting any bona fide UNIX system — you’re not going to be able to install and run your favorite AIX programs.”

    I would never talk about binary compatibility being a stipulation for a Unix system being a “true” Unix system. I addressed it to point out the fallacy of your arguments.

    In the end Speed is talking about the fact that OS X is not registered with the Open Group http://www.unix-systems.org/ the “official” Unix people. This means that even if your system has basically the same source base as, say AIX, and doesn’t pass every test, then the system can’t be said to be an “official” Unix system. An equivalent statement would be that if your Java code doesn’t pass the test to be 100% Pure Java certified, then it isn’t a Java program. I wonder why Apple doesn’t try and pass the Unix certification test. Probably the same reason BSDI and many other *nix (make you happy Speed) vendors don’t register…no one really cares.

    Speed, are you suggesting that all registered Unix OS’s have software that can be dropped in and re-compiled to magically run on any of the other platforms! Get real! You can’t even get that kind of drop and go support when upgrading from one version of their OS’s to another!

    Lets shut Speed up once and for all. Apple’s MacOS X is a Unix-based OS that hasn’t been registered with the “official” Unix board. I’m sure no one will use it anymore. Notice how many people run away scared from Microsoft’s non-ANSI compliant compiler!

    PS Sorry for the Linux acronym mistatement. I was typing that post in between doing my real job.
75. 2002-05-24 10:16 pm

    Anonymous

    I wanted to put personal attacks in a seperate message. You’re not the only person who can use dollar words in messages. It doesn’t make you look smart. It makes you look like an arrogant ass. And by the way, even you make typos and grammatical errors. Case in point:

    So your ‘point’ about OS X is not UNIX is true to an extent, but so what?

    You either missed quotation marks, or forgot to do your grammer check. I got what you meant of course, and didn’t feel the need to point out BS instead of answering the question with more questions.

    Are you a philosopher or just an ass?
76. 2002-05-24 10:59 pm

    Anonymous

    Oh… so that is what this is over? I totally forgot about (or didn’t think about) the Open Group, D’OH!

    I guess that would make sense being that you couldn’t say Windows is VMS officially, though NT is based on VMS written in C (for portability) instead of assembly (like VMS).

    Okay I am happy with the ‘based’ analogy since that would be officially more appropriate in this case 🙂
77. 2002-05-25 1:26 am

    Anonymous

    Well CattBeMac, I guess that all you’re capable of is playing childish games. You’re changing your story more often than a whore changes her knickers. Maybe you think you’re “winning” by being so evasive, but the only prize that you’re going to get is a giant raspberry.

    You continue to fail to prove that OSX is UNIX. You’re trying very hard to distract all from that failure, but I’ll be happy to remind you of it. OSX is not UNIX. I know why, and you don’t. That makes you a fool as well as an idiot.
78. 2002-05-25 1:59 am

    Anonymous

    Hank, if you are the author of the article, then you are the (only) one who is responsible for saying a lot of stuff that’s not true. Now you say that you’re not a UNIX expert. Well, the time for you to come to that conclusion was when you wrote the article. If you didn’t know what you were talking about, then why did you write it at all?

    And now you’re attacking me (without any cause, I might add). Do you really believe that my brief comparison of OSX and UNIX is exactly the same as your incoherent diatribe? If that is so, then you are insane. To be truthful, I don’t believe that you’re insane; I believe that you are extremely dishonest. And let’s get one thing clear — you are the one who is making the bizarre claims.

    Now that you have finally figured out that UNIX does not “grow on trees”, and that it is in fact owned by the Open Group, then you have no excuse for not knowing why “Unix-based” is not an acceptable use of the trademark. Your latest crop of weasel words are totally illegitimate. The fact that you have nothing to offer besides personal attacks and shady prose is the strongest indication that Apple’s products have no merits of their own, thus no reason to buy them. And that is the bottom line. Underhanded marketeering means an inferior product.

    BTW, I’ll shed exactly one tear over your jealousy about my ability to write in a manner befitting an educated person. I am an educated person, and will not masquerade as a bumpkin just to make you feel better about yourself. Perhaps if you hadn’t masqueraded as someone who knows more than you really do, you wouldn’t be so bitter.
79. 2002-05-25 3:09 pm

    Anonymous

    The term “expert” gets thrown around too liberally in modern times. Anyone who’s used a language for a couple of years is suddenly an “expert” on the topic. I refuse to claim to be an expert in any one topic. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that the more I learn, the more I *know* that my knowledge of any one topic is very small. I would love to see where I listed myself as an “expert” anything!

    The point of criticism I have with you is your use of highfalutin words over substantive criticism. Rather than saying right off the bat, “OS X is not Unix because it is not licensed by the Open Group” you go off in a psuedo-religious diatribe. You try and turn your questions and statements into a great riddle that only you or equally superior beings know how to unravel. You also refuse to accept the history of the entire Unix architecture. The Open Group neither invented nor created Unix. The Open Group is an artifact of the fragmentation of Unix in the early days. Furthermore, I showed the falacy of your own statement that the only acceptable classification of Unix operating systems is those licensed by the Open Group. Once again, all of these different Unix derivatives share a common base. History proves me correct on this. I stated this in my first e-mail on the subject where I stated ” So now that I’ve shown you how OS X is very much a UNIX operating system, inherentence speaking, could you please tell us why it isn’t?” So once again, I ask you to please show how OS X is not a Unix platform through the code legacy it is based upon. I’m asking for technical, not legal statements. Since this is a technical issue, not one of licensing. The fact is you can’t, because the only way your statement is correct is when it is looked in the light of name licensing.

    Furthermore, when your own inane comments are brought to your attention, why do you further deflect chriticism with more bombastic diatribes directed at said authors. Do you deny writing the statements I pointed out in my non-ad homenin message? Why not say either you were mistaken in your comments, or that you mispoke. I would say your mis-statements shows that you are as much of a Unix “expert” as either I or CattBeMac is. That means that none of us here are experts on any operating system. None of us is a Tanenbaum or a Torvalds or anyone of that level of knowledge in operating system design and implementation. I would therefore say that none of us here is an expert on the issue.

    Please, have the courtesy to address criticisms directly, as I and CattBeMac have. Please, for once do not ratchet up the vocabulary one more notch to avoid addressing valid criticisms. Someone of your level of education realizes this is not goood manners in a debate.
80. 2002-05-25 3:26 pm

    Anonymous

    The sad fact to your whole stupid argument or whatever is that you never showed any evidence to back your claims… Hank had to bring up the subject about the Open Group for you, why didn’t you do the same instead of just repeating yourself time and time again? Obviously you really must have not known where to look and was just running off at the mouth because maybe Joe Shmoe told you so!

    And speaking of playing childish games, do you not read your own posts? ’nuff said!

    You saying that Apple is unworthy trying selling OS X off as UNIX is just bad as Microsoft selling XP off as a new operating system, which it’s not! And I will back up those claims.

    Contrary to your own denial, you have it in for Apple which that’s all fine and dandy and I don’t care either way. You’re still a typical zealot (or troll) that speaks the usual jibber jabber when flaming Apple, which brings no value to your words of ill-wisdom!

    But at the end if the day I still get payed very well to program around UNIX (or UNIX ‘based’ in your case) systems and regardless of UNIX or UNIX ‘based’ they still work well together in a single UNIX environment, which is something you wont prove different (unless you’re about to prove the industry wrong… I don’t think so)!
81. 2002-05-25 8:08 pm

    Anonymous

    I came here to read an article on the Xserve and its merits, then I notice the large amount of commenta and decideded to give them a look through.

    I have gone through this whole thread, and I must say Anonymous has proven himself an idiot a long time ago. Any one with half a mind will have already come to this conclusion, after reading this argument that has progressed for half the thread`s length. Useful discourse on the subject of the Xserve ended at about the 3rd page, after that the merits of the UNIX name was the new topic of discussion.

    I also am no expert, but by tone of Anonymous`s posts he most certainly isnt an expert, far from it actually. Any one who will fall back to an argument of I know something you don`t know can hardly be considered an expert on any topic.

    With that said, I throw my short diatribe into the mix. Mac OS X is UNIX based, simple as that. The whole philosophical assertion that Mac OS X is not UNIX, means nothing to me since guess what I`m using it and it does everything a UNIX needs to do.

    And to finish it off, the Apple branded spin: Mac OS X sends all other UNIX to /dev/null.
82. 2002-05-25 9:31 pm

    Anonymous

    Let me get this straight, you’re accusing me of launching into a “psuedo-religious diatribe”? That’s rich!

    The fact remains that OSX is not UNIX in any way. The Open Group is the sole authority on this matter, and they say that you’re wrong. That’s all that matters. Your diatribes, personal attacks and deceptive arguments are all for naught. If Apple had bought UnixWare from SCO instead of Caldera, then you might have been able to make an argument about lineage, but that’s not the case either, so it’s another red herring from you.

    To illustrate just how absurd your story (and CattBeMac’s, for that matter) is, I’ll use an analogy:

    Let’s say that someone worked at a Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise, and then parted ways with the KFC franchisee, going on to open a restaurant called “FreeKFC”. Now in the real world, that restaruant would be shut down right away over copyright infringement, but for the sake of the story I’ll stipulate that the place stayed open. But the FreeKFC restaurant didn’t sell KFC chicken, didn’t use the patented KFC pressure cooking process, spices or any of the other things that makes KFC what it is.

    Now let’s say that a third party, whose only connection to KFC is that he once ate KFC chicken strikes a deal with the FreeKFC operator for his plain old fried chicken recipe, which bears no familiarity with KFC’s product other than being chicken and being cooked. This third party then opens up a store, let’s call it “Appleby’s”. But this third person paints his store with the familiar KFC red and white color scheme, and posts signs saying “real KFC chicken” and “the taste of KFC” etc.

    Well, anybody with a lick of common sense would see right away that this third person is committing fraud! It’s cut-and-dried, there’s no doubt about it. Nunber three is not selling Kentucky Fried Chicken, period.

    But number three hires hordes of sleazy lawyers who devise convoluted arguments based on half-truths and the slimmest of relationships (like the guy eating at KFC once) in order to thoroughly confuse the courts, and maybe prevail through sheer underhandedness. Well Hank, you are one of those sleazy lawyers. And in this court of public opinion, you lost your case.

    KFC is analogous to UNIX, once the product of AT&T, but now in the ownership of the Open Group, just like Harlan Sanders’ company is now owned by a food conglomerate. UC Berkeley’s CSRG was analogous to the KFC franchisee, being a UNIX vendor, but never being the originator or owner of UNIX. Of course, FreeKFC is analogous to FreeBSD, people who are still in the chicken business, but who aren’t involved with KFC, just like FreeBSD is an OS that comes with utilties that were once bundled with UNIX, but aren’t anymore. And of course the “third party” is Apple.

    Hank, I don’t owe you an education. If you want to learn something about a subject, the thing to do is ask. You only have yourself to blame for your frustration. Maybe if you weren’t so intent on telling Apple’s lies, you would have made friends and learned things.
83. 2002-05-25 10:38 pm

    Anonymous

    this has been an amusing discussion
84. 2002-05-25 10:52 pm

    Anonymous

    Yeah it went from the Xserve to Kentucky Fried Chicken!

    Speed… get a clue will ya!

    Do you think anybody really cares if Apple carries a simple UNIX trademark or not? I don’t think so, you really like to amuse yourself, helk I am even enjoying you make a fool of yourself!
85. 2002-05-26 5:17 am

    Anonymous

    “Do you think anybody really cares if Apple carries a simple UNIX trademark or not?”

    Well, obviously you care, or else you wouldn’t have wasted so much energy claiming that Apple does!
86. 2002-05-26 3:30 pm

    Anonymous

    >>Well, obviously you care, or else you wouldn’t have wasted so much energy claiming that Apple does!<<

    You just don’t get it! I could care less if they carry a simple UNIX trademark or not, and that is all it is, if you actually research the site! As long as there is UNIX under the hood (in your case, UNIX based) and it performs like UNIX, and I can use UNIX commands in the CLI (with the different shells like bash, c, korn, and etc…) use the line and text editors (ed, vi, emacs, pico) and I am able to network easily with other UNIX or UNIX based systems and get my work done, I am happy camper. Like I said before, I work in a UNIX environment that is surrounded by Solaris and Linux, we use Solaris for our mission critical operations while Linux manages our worldwide network and keeps things humming. Now we also have HP/UX running the OpenViews package to monitor our network, but we also use Linux to do the same, so it’s pretty redundant, but hey it works!

    I understand that you have a major dislike with Apple, but unfortunately, we all don’t think alike. I was originally a PC user myself that defected, I also still have my first PC. I was not a happy with it and when it came time to upgrade years ago I made the switch. I still use PCs at work and I still get the same reaction when I use them, I will never come back and it’s pointless trying to change my mind. Why would I leave the Mac platform if I am happy with it? Sounds like an oxymoron if you ask me!
87. 2002-05-26 5:20 pm

    Anonymous

    …spends a lot of time arguing a point, then accuses the other of wasting energy by rebutting said arguement.
88. 2002-05-27 12:46 am

    Anonymous

    I hear you, wmd! It’s funny how CattBeMac suddenly doesn’t care about the matter only after being thoroughly debunked! LOL, anything not to lose face. And my time is never wasted as long as the truth is told. Besides, the real story is a lot more interesting than Apple’s marketing swill.
89. 2002-05-27 4:37 pm

    Anonymous

    Marketing swill?

    I use OS X day in day out— no RDF here, it works.

    You (in classic trolling behaviour) ignore Hanks and Catt’s salient points to continue your false premises based on half truths.

    Your own RDF perhaps?
90. 2002-05-27 4:44 pm

    Anonymous

    I don’t see any examples there, wmd. You’re talking out your arse. Typical Mac-head, 180° out of phase with reality…
91. 2002-05-27 5:44 pm

    Anonymous

    “You’re talking out your arse.Typical Mac-head, 180° out of phase with reality…”.

    Ah yes, well then, please excuse me while I return to making my living on a Mac ( and a PC ).
92. 2002-05-27 7:12 pm

    Anonymous

    I thought the master of spin was james carville?
93. 2002-05-27 7:53 pm

    Anonymous

    I was going to respond directly to the KFC argument and such. I rather would defer the defense of my statements to a source which Speed and others would have to agree has some level of authority (since Speed believes that the French guy has no credentials whatsoever). I defer to the Open Group, who currently maintains the standard. The link for Unix history at their site is:

    http://www.unix-systems.org/what_is_unix/history_timeline.html

    Now here is an interesting line from the Unix history, maintained by the Open Group, “The Single UNIX Specification brand program has now achieved critical mass: vendors whose products have met the demanding criteria now account for the majority of UNIX systems by value.”

    Notice that even the Open Group recognizes that there are *other* Unix-based systems in existence who aren’t registered Unix implementations. Of course, these companies are not allowed to use the Unix trademark, and thus say “Unix-based” or use the term *nix in geek circles.

    I think this, along with the timeline and any other Unix history you find, suffice in showing that OS X is indeed Unix-based (which is of course all that was claimed by me and Apple in the first place), and is officially recognized to be so. All OS X is *not* is a registered Unix system.
94. 2002-05-27 10:18 pm

    Anonymous

    …Speed believes that the French guy has no credentials whatsoever…

    Hank, you’re misrepresenting my position. Must you lie about everything? I said that the Open Group is the final authority on this matter. Their authority is traceable directly back to AT&T. What I have written comes directly from their documentation.

    Notice that even the Open Group recognizes that there are *other* Unix-based systems in existence who aren’t registered Unix implementations.

    That’s a lie. Not only does that page do nothing of the sort, but the Open Group specifically mentions “UNIX-based” as being a misuse of the trademark:

    http://www.opengroup.org/legal.htm#A%20Quick%20Guide

    Obviously a vendor who has no right to use the UNIX trademark has no right to use the UNIX trademark. So using the UNIX trademark in connection with their product is wrong. Doing so in any fashion is wrong, both legally and morally. Weasel words and other evasive language only put Apple further down the slippery slope.

    As far as timelines go, let’s remember that derivative “clones” of UNIX may copy the style of one UNIX release or another, but they still aren’t UNIX. Timelines show the progression of history, and aren’t statements of compliance. Hank, stop trying to confuse the issue with irrelevant distractions! OSX is not UNIX!
95. 2002-05-27 11:46 pm

    Anonymous

    >>That’s a lie. Not only does that page do nothing of the sort, but the Open Group specifically mentions “UNIX-based” as being a misuse of the trademark:<<

    Once again you need to research… those guidelines pertain to the following companies or groups who use the registered trademark, and not those who don’t. It is normal for the owner of the trademark to set standards on their trademark. How it is specified or how its is labeled, which includes the marketing strategies of deploying that trademark, whether it be how a logo should look to where you place it on the product!

    Nothing new here!!!
96. 2002-05-28 12:53 am

    Anonymous

    Your are most definately correct that no one may use the Unix trademark if they aren’t registered with the Open Group. However, look at the statement again. Notice they say “…vendors whose products have met the demanding criteria now account for the majority of UNIX systems by value.”

    If there can be no Unix systems outside the specification, then how can the Open Group registered Unix implementations represeent the *majority* of the Unix systems. By definition, if the only true Unix implementations are registered Unix implementations, then *all* of the UNIX systems must be registered UNIX systems.

    I don’t disagree with any statement you make on the validity in saying that OS X is not a *registered* UNIX system. How could I? They aren’t registered. However all of the UNIX systems share a common heritage, including non-registered UNIX implementation. This is why it is not false marketing to claim that OS X is UNIX-based. It would be false marketing to say that OS X is UNIX. Granted, some of the one liners Apple throws around claim this. Such as when they say something like “…power and stability of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of the Macintosh.” In the very next paragraph they explicitly say UNIX-based, not UNIX however. I will grant you that they could make it more clear in every single sentence, however I don’t think the average user (Apple’s marketing target) will notice the difference.

    Furthermore, I still say that a products inferiority or superiority has nothing to do with the marketing. Even the best product, if it isn’t marketed correctly, will dry up and disappear. It is a sad statement of market economics, but the best product doesn’t always win the race. Many times, a technologically inferior product achieves success at the destruction of a superior product. The marketing department’s job is to sell the product–good or bad–as the best solution for their target audience. The engineering department’s job is to create the best product for their target audience. Since they are two mutually exclusive branches, with mutually exclusive budgets and tasks, I don’t see why one influences the other.
97. 2002-05-28 1:06 am

    Anonymous

    Once again you need to research… those guidelines pertain to the following companies or groups who use the registered trademark, and not those who don’t.

    And what is that registered trademark? UNIX. Apple does not include UNIX code in its products, nor has Apple made its products compliant with the prevailing UNIX specification. And still, Apple uses the registered trademark to market their products:

    http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/darwin.html

    Quit lying, CattBeMac. I did my research. The proof is there for all to see. Apple is in the wrong, and you are in the wrong. How much do you get paid to lie for Apple anyway?
98. 2002-05-28 1:28 am

    Anonymous

    >>Quit lying, CattBeMac. I did my research. The proof is there for all to see. Apple is in the wrong, and you are in the wrong. How much do you get paid to lie for Apple anyway?<<

    Well if Apple is in the wrong, then the Open Group should be suing the pants off of them right now, but being that Apple is a member (Silver) of the Open Group, I doubt that will be the happen anytime soon… of course you did your research, so you knew that already!
99. 2002-05-28 3:35 am

    Anonymous

    Looks like you answered your own question, CattBeMac. Apple doesn’t get sued because they paid a lot of money for a membership. But the Open Group’s decision to keep it out of court does not alter Apple’s guilt. Apple is still wrong, and so are you.
100. 2002-05-28 7:02 am

     Anonymous

     Well, looks like Apple should close up shop.

     Speed racer has deemed them wrong.

     —————————————
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