In this video (.torrent, Quicktime) “you will see great attempts at crashing the Haiku app_server, some commentary on the robustness of the code, and a staggering amount of threads for Java running on BeOS R5.” Here is more about the video.
In this video (.torrent, Quicktime) “you will see great attempts at crashing the Haiku app_server, some commentary on the robustness of the code, and a staggering amount of threads for Java running on BeOS R5.” Here is more about the video.
Great video there, it’s good that the Haiku developers can be so humorous to their work, and not be phased when things don’t always go according to plan. Great work guys keep it up.
Yeah I agree, they really seem to be all lighthearted about it, just code and we’ll see what happens, and laugh about it when something goes wrong. I really appreciate that; expecially as a long-time BeOS user.
I like the atmosphere in the video. Good stuff.
That’s been the atmosphere with both waltercon’s thus far. It’s an eccentric, electric, and entertaining group of folks.
The best way I could ever spend a “vacation” is to hang out with these guys for a weekend. What a priviledge!
where can i download or buy the latest BEOS operating system and can u install it on a x86 pc
http://www.yellowtab.com
chearss
you can read an “easy” method for installing HaikuOS here:
http://haikunews.org/1105
it was posted recently on OSNews also.
Azuerus says no torrent
Hi, this link worked for me http://haikunews.org:6969/torrents/WalterCon_Haiku.mov.torrent
See ya,
François
Haiku is really *really* exciting!!
Good work!
im thinking about buying zeta 1.0 delxue and i just wanted to know if their are any other new beos operating systems that are better than zeta 1.0 deluxe, also is it possible with zeta 1.0 delxue to share files with a networked windows xp pc
You can use this http://www.bebits.com/search?search=samba+switcher&x=0&y=0 to make the zeta pc the server to share files with windows.
Working on downloading the movie.
Keep up the good work, Haiku team!
Have to agree with that comment – it was just so refreshing and funny watching the Haiku dev’s putting their OS into action. From the looks of Haiku it seems just as snappy as R5 and thats got be a good thing.
Regards the Java port that looks damn good too.
Anon
YellowTab killed it for me. OS X is my new fave.
“YellowTab killed it for me. OS X is my new fave.”
Eh? How could yellowTab have killed it? Zeta IS NOT BeOS. The last BeOS release was years ago. Zeta is a separate OS by separate people, albeit re-using much of the same technology.
Your comment is like saying “Slackware killed Linux for me”.
You fat, stupid retarded fuckpuffin.
Maybe sometime in the next few months we can see Java 1.4.2 running on Haiku itself
Very cool, all of this. I’m going to have to come to the next WalterCon.
Andrew and I were trying to get it transferred to a Haiku box (needed to burn a CD, etc. didn’t have the equipment on the boxes that had Java) to try that out. At this point there’s no reason is -shouldn’t- run, but we have no idea if it will. 🙂
Oh yea, I just love this type of Video. It shows me that I’m not the only nutcase on the planet (I should bet nuttier friends to feel less alone or attend waltercon next year).
Let’s get this in a video format that doesn’t suck ass, please.
What is wrong with it? I watched it with MPlayer and it is absolutely fine.
Haiku Media Center OS more like it.
Would be real good for this.
The article says “torrent, Quicktime”. All I get is a file that OSX doesn’t know what to do with and Quicktime can’t open. Is there a link to a Quicktime movie or not?
The quicktime movie is distributed via a torrent as to not overload the generous host giving us this file.
1) Download a client
http://www.bittorrent.com/
http://azureus.sourceforge.net/
2) Download the .torrent file, open it in Bittorrent, it will download a .mov file
3) Watch it in Quicktime
4) Profit
I knew keeping that torrent running was a good idea…. 913% share ratio and rising.
That Java demo must have been after I bailed on Sunday to enjoy the long, slow drive from Vegas to LA in bumper to bumper trafic.
A good time was had by all at WalterCon Las Vegas. Hope to see everybody next year.
Tapeworm
Nope, we were abusing it on Saturday afternoon or evening as I recall.
if (Tapeworm == Issac) {
You may have been out gambling.
}
I used to really like BeOS and followed OpenBeOS for a while.. I went to the new Haiku website and was checking things out and found this in the document that was called “why we need OpenBeOS”.
The first things they say are below:
“These facts are:
1. Open source UNIX clones (Linux) make a poor desktop OS for the average user.
The clones currently have a 0.1% share of the desktop market. Developers are trying desperately to make these clones easy to use based on X (KDE, Gnome) but have not succeeded in providing the level of simplicity required by today’s average user.
2. Mac OSX not to be released on x86 hardware any time soon.
Microsoft would not stand still if Apple were to challenge Windows with OSX on x86 since OSX would then compete directly with Windows. Microsoft would most likely stop development of Internet Explorer and Office for OSX, which they have recently threatened due to lack of OSX software sales. This would be a fatal blow to Apple and its plans to increase its desktop market share.
There is no choice for another OS on x86 for 99.9% of users!
Therefore, if OpenBeOS = Mac + UNIX + Performance + x86 + open source + 0$ then, OpenBeOS has the opportunity to fill this HUGE untapped market!!!”
Their TOP 2 reasons for needing this OS are now MOOT since they wrote them.
1) Linux probably has from the numbers I have seen from people who put out uselessnumbers like IDC estimates Linux at somewhere between 3-5% not 0.01%. Does this change their reasons for having OpenBeOS since it was their number one reason?
2) Well, now we WILL HAVE OSX on X86…does that change things too?
I think in some ways maybe they are delusional.
Ya know it was easy for alternative OS’s to justify their exsistince on the desktop because there was only ONE to compare to..Windows. Everyone could all look in the same direction and point to MS.
But, now there are TWO. Will this make it harder to justify the need for an alternate OS on X86? Will it fragment those people building such projects?
For example: The OpenBeOS people were basically justifing themselves by saying that a) Windows sux, b) Linux is too hard, and c) MacOS does not exsist for X86.
I would say one of those things will never change(a). But the other 2 are moving targets. Linux is getting better/easier at a pretty good clip. Now OSX is going to be on X86 too.
It sort of takes a lot of the wind out of their sails does it not?
It sort of takes a lot of the wind out of their sails does it not?
No. Their “sails” are pretty much filled with the desire to have an open-source operating system that doesn’t suck for the desktop, which Linux does and for the most part always will. Haiku will be, from the ground up, designed for the normal everyday user, and while OSX on x86 will provide quite a bit of competition in that area, OSX is not open-source.
I never understand these types of complaints? Why do some people seem hell-bent on destroying well-intentioned competition?
“Their “sails” are pretty much filled with the desire to have an open-source operating system that doesn’t suck for the desktop, which Linux does and for the most part always will.”
I don’t understand this need to denigrate other OSes while creating/perpetuating another one.
I love and use Linux as my main OS, I find it perfectly usable, and still approve what the Haiku people are trying to do. The main point is IMO that we both belong to the open source family.
Well, sorry, but Linux can’t recreate a desktop experience; what desktops need are a strict set of guidelines and structures; if *NIX were to re-create something, the best hope would be to grab the BSD kernel then embrace and extend OpenStep.
BeOS is an alternative in that all the hardwork, in relation to API design has already been done, now it is just a matter of re-creating it, and once created, then extended it in the apropriate direction – there is already the structure there to allow extension where as the *NIX world seems to be for ever at war with each other over desktop, toolkits and libraries, each duplicating the functions of each other, merely because of immaturing reasoning such as which licence it is licenced under.
“Well, sorry, but Linux can’t recreate a desktop experience; what desktops need are a strict set of guidelines and structures; if *NIX were to re-create something, the best hope would be to grab the BSD kernel then embrace and extend OpenStep.”
Clearly opinions differ here. Millions of people use Linux and they find it OK also as a desktop OS.
Millions of non-end users; just because a million geeks use it, doesn’t make it a useful tool for an end user who has no desire to learn how to use a computer, beyond learning the rudamentry steps required to complete a task.
The only real alternative, quite frankly is MacOS X, and maybe, a miracle from above, Solaris x86 and maybe somewhere down the line, BeOS.
My sister uses it, she is definitely not a geek. She said that the transition from Win XP to SUSE and KDE was a no brainer.
A 8 year old neighbor of mine uses it as well. He loves the games
OT: I read your blog: very nice.
<em>I think in some ways maybe they are delusional.</em>
Oh there’s no doubt about it, they’re delusional. Dreamers usually are. Sometimes something comes of it, sometimes not. We’ll see. It’s pretty much the same story with a dozen other tiny alternative OS efforts.
If you’re looking for news about practical developments, you’ve come to the wrong website.
What you are quoting is dated 31 Jul 2002:
http://open-beos.sourceforge.net/nsl.php?mode=display&id=23#75
Maybe they have changed their mind ever since, because on:
http://haiku-os.org/learn.php?mode=faq_normal
I find:
“Why are you using the NewOS kernel? Why not use Linux?
The goals of Haiku are to re-create the experience of using BeOS as closely as possible. Linux is a large system that has become fairly well established at this point. Its kernel design doesn’t fit well with the BeOS kernel/servers/kits design. The general consensus was that using Linux as the kernel would inevitably result in extending Linux, not in recreating BeOS.”
>2) Well, now we WILL HAVE OSX on X86…does that change things too?
We have OSX on Macs, which is not the same as OSX on any generic X86 box.
Unless the OSX on X86 install process becomes simple enough for non-geeks to handle it OSX on X86Macs changes nothing.
Aside from the entry level Mac Mini Apple will always charge a reasonable price premium for thier boxes.
Their TOP 2 reasons for needing this OS are now MOOT since they wrote them.
1) Linux probably has from the numbers I have seen from people who put out uselessnumbers like IDC estimates Linux at somewhere between 3-5% not 0.01%. Does this change their reasons for having OpenBeOS since it was their number one reason?
Not particularly relevant to their first point, since it primarily talks about usability and not marketshare.
2) Well, now we WILL HAVE OSX on X86…
In the sense that they mean it, no, we won’t. We’ll have OS X on x86-based Macs, but that’s a far cry from having it run any compatible x86 hardware.
Furthermore, don’t you think it’s a little disingenuous to question a project’s justification for existing based on an obviously-outdated documenet?
Valid points, but it still changes nothing. You see, BeOS has this feel during use which other OS’s cannot replicate. It’s hard to try to explain something which you cannot express with a bulleted feature list or raw benchmarks. The system is extremelly responsive, and it feels like handling a sports car. Yes, a sports car doesn’t have back seats for the kids, doesn’t have a lot of cargo space, doesn’t use regular fuel etc, but the shear thrill and excitement while handling cannot be matched. This is what drives the Haiku (OpenBeOS) groups and why BeOS just wont die.
We’ve all tried Linux (and have it installed on a spare partition), but it’s handling is extremelly slow. Yes, it’s like a truck, can do some heavy industry strength work, and is the lifeblood of servers everywhere. But is feels like a truck to run. No elegance and speed during cornering.
MacOSX feels like a 4WD. Still slow, but much nicer to use than a truck. It also has leather seats and cup holders and climate control and GPS and what not. But it sucks at handling corners.
Windows (in all honesty) works. Yes, there are some things it could do better, but it just works (and thats why it’s used by 90% of the population). But it isn’t exciting to drive. And has OK (but not great) handling. Probably because there has been a lot of effort on designing new roads which travel straight (tunnels / bridges), so there is no need to go around corners. Works well while you are on the main straight. The second you venture off the beaten track, you get bogged in the mud.
BeOS was all about perception.
Who gives a rats arse if there is or is not another system which may or may not fill the same need. More competition, more innovation and more fun to be had by developers, users and hobbiests alike. Getting sick of people saying “Oh, but system <foo> can do what system <bar> can do hence <bar> is useless”. Choice is good.
Those drunk guys do an amazing progress
keep it up !
I would be interested in how far you could get the same speed on a different kernel.
Or is really the kernel the main reason for the fast and responsive gui?
I’ve heard that Beos had a somehow better/finer grained multitasking but that it was harder to program on because of that.
I mean, if it was just a design flaw in the kernel than linux should have fixed it by now.
I would be interested in how far you could get the same speed on a different kernel.
Or is really the kernel the main reason for the fast and responsive gui?
If I understand correctly, BeOS´ kernel follows closely a microkernel design approach, which brings some performance concerns of its own. The main reason for the BeOS GUI snappiness is that, unlike Linux´s, it runs in kernelspace (X is a userspace application in *NIX) and the BeOS kernel is heavily multithreaded.
I’ve heard that Beos had a somehow better/finer grained multitasking but that it was harder to program on because of that.
I´m not a developer (at least, not one that´s worth to mention :-)) but I heard the same thing. The freely available Be Book, which has a somewhat outdated reference to the BeOS API helps a lot but in the end, it is up to the developer to leverage the benefits of the heavily multithreaded environment.
I mean, if it was just a design flaw in the kernel than linux should have fixed it by now.
As stated above, it is not a flaw, but a design decision. The Linux kernel is a project completely separated from the GUI, that is an user space application, common to all Unices, running on top of the Linux kernel. There is no such a thing as the Linux GUI.
DeadFish Man
The kernel does have quite a large effect on the fast and responsive GUI, in that it can do fairly quick task/thread switching, and message passing. However, that’s only one of the things that contributes to a responsive GUI.
The BeOS kernel doesn’t suffer from a single-threaded Big Kernel Lock that slows things down. Technically, the BeOS kernel isn’t a true microkernel, as it does include a lot of things in kernelspace, such as video, network, storage, etc. drivers, but it isn’t quite that simple. In the BeOS design, there are kernel level drivers that are often quite minimal, and deal directly with the hardware, and then there are accelerants, which are drivers that run within userspace, that communicate with the kernelspace portion of the drivers. This is how networking and video/GUI is done before BONE (Be OS Networking Environment, which is all within kernelspace) and this means the most complicated stuff (and usually the most likely to be buggy) is done in userspace. This does have performance overhead, of course.
Starting with Windows NT 4.0, Microsoft has done all their GUI stuff within kernelspace; BeOS, Zeta, and Haiku use the kernelspace low-level driver for the video card, combined with the accelerant driver in userspace, and this is driven by the App_Server, which is an entirely userspace application.
The BeOS GUI is very finely multithreaded, which allows it to be more responsive, though not necessarily faster in absolute raw speed than another system for graphics. However, the rest of the system design may make things feel faster. BeOS has a 3 ms standard time quanta, whereas Windows and Linux have much larger ones, typically at least 10 ms each. This also tends to make things more responsive, but it also tends to thrash the CPU cache a bit more as well. Now, for the GUI programming, there’s no question that the finer multithreading does make it more difficult to program than writing single-threaded GUI applications in other systems. In BeOS GUI applications, you have a minimum of one thread for the C++ BApplication object that is in the main thread, and also one thread for each separate BWindow, which may be covered with one or more views (aka controls in Windows) that are distinctly different. In Windows, windows contain nested windows and all are handled the same, and each window can have a separate thread and message queue for the most part; in BeOS, a window is something that then has views that can be further divided into views (BView’s) where each view is tied to the parent BWindow, which uses one message queue.
BeOS has a much richer message handling system than Windows, and that makes some useful differences. However, Windows in some ways has a better system that’s more reliable, though simpler, because the threading model is easier to deal with in Windows. How the GUI is drawn has some significant differences between the two, and what Windows supports for graphics operations in many ways is more powerful/flexible than BeOS has, but of course, it all comes at a price. BeOS uses floating point numbers for the coordinate system in drawing, and Windows uses integers, among other things. But, if you are really curious, look at Windows documentation and the Be Book
I enjoyed watching the video very much. Ok, as far as the demoed stuff goes… It’s great of course, but what I enjoyed the most were the witty remarks of the guys in the bkground. Those guys seem like one of thos old-school hackers, checking out stuff they made and torturing it to the breaking point – for the kicks of it. None of that bitching about the secondary stuff, so often observed with serious “developers” (that’s a suit word btw), like: my X’s got a Y that your’s Z doesn’t, which makes me very productive and up-to-date and blah blah blah.
These guys instead just whistle while they work – I admire that.
2) Well, now we WILL HAVE OSX on X86…does that change things too?
Ok, OSXx86 will be available in 2006 and that does change the equation becuase now there will be a real alternative for your average joe-end-user desktop OS available on Intel hardware. However, the majority of people will still be purchasing non Apple hardware, unless Apple pricing policy changes and for those people I think Haiku/Beos can still be a real alternative to MS windows/Linux- but as always having the applications are going to be crucial.
Anon
how nerdy were those guys? I mean, I know they are OS developers and all, but I think that was too much even for me.
Well, a bit on the geeky side… ( so am I
)
But they’re not that different from me and my classmates
I liked the movie… it’s always nice to see something you haven’t witnessed for way too long
dylansmrjones
kristian AT herkild DOT dk
That’s Mr. Nerd to you!
(I’m the one in the white Nike hat)
D’OH! Next time I’ll watch a video I was on site for during filming to verify I was actually visible first
I was mentioned at the end of the video, though
I think some people still says those bad things only because they are “ignorant”.
Why should you complain and demotivate Haiku developers? I repeat, you are ignorant:
do you know that Haiku represents also a technical and research project? Remember it is based on microkernel, which is NOT the COMMON way to design a OS.
It is heavily multitasking, which is an UNCOMMON way.. to intend software.
And it has some aspects that are UNCOMMON.. like the filesystem, the GUI..
Haiku DOES have its reasons for existence. It is a nice OS, fast as lighting and, whatever his marketshare is, it’s INTERESTING.
I’m the main one you hear talking about what the server can & can’t do, and that’s Mr. Computer Geek, to you guys.
–DarkWyrm
If I understand correctly, BeOS´ kernel follows closely a microkernel design approach, which brings some performance concerns of its own. The main reason for the BeOS GUI snappiness is that, unlike Linux´s, it runs in kernelspace (X is a userspace application in *NIX) and the BeOS kernel is heavily multithreaded.
BeOS does not follow the microkernel design closely – it is in fact more of a hybrid. For instance, in a true microkernel design, if there is such thing, everything but process and memory management, including file systems etc. would be in user space (or userland in BeOS lingo).
BeOS takes a more flexible approach as the kernel is extensible through kernel add-ons, which are a bit like Linux kernel modules, file systems are kernel add-ons, for example. Of course, there are also normal drivers, which can be loaded in either kernel (usually) or userland. However it is still very lightweight. It is also fully multithreaded, so there can be multiple kernel threads, enabling non-blocking system calls (the downside is that every thread needs some physical memory locked while it’s running in CPU’s supervisor mode).
Everything else is userland – including the app_server, which takes care of the GUI. The thing that I find kind of smart, regarding the GUI, is that graphics drivers are actually split into two. One is the (kernel) device driver which deals with HW, the other is a userland driver called “accelerant”. I’m not sure what the trick is, but I suppose the idea here is that having a big portion of the gfx driver in the userland (that is where app_server lives) reduces context switching overhead.
There is a mirror/archive of portions of the old Be site, most notably Newsletter and Developer Area
http://www.beatjapan.org/mirror/www.be.com/aboutbe/benewsletter/ind…
Besides being an *excellent* read, with many general advices on just about everything, plus inside jokes, it is still a useful reference for BeOS/Haiku. A very coll complement to the BeBook.
For me Linux is not a choice at all period on any of my computers.
I disagree with the philosophy, the development model and a lot more.
Why oh why is it that every time something pops up about something else which is not Linux, some stupid Linux/RMS fan jumps along and says “Hey, what about Linux”…
I’m quite confident, ALL (or say 99%) of us who are interested in alternative OSes has heard of Linux. A big majority of us has tried it, and some of us has put it on the shelf and don’t really care about it.
So for this and next Haiku thread, can it please be about Haiku as that is our interest, and if we wanna read about Linux future, belive me, we will find those articles and evangelists typing like madmen. For a long time these came about 1 or 2 every day on OSNews.
“Why oh why is it that every time something pops up about something else which is not Linux, some stupid Linux/RMS fan jumps along and says “Hey, what about Linux”…”
Get your facts right, please. I replied to agildehaus who said:
“No. Their “sails” are pretty much filled with the desire to have an open-source operating system that doesn’t suck for the desktop, which Linux does and for the most part always will.”
I replied:
“I don’t understand this need to denigrate other OSes while creating/perpetuating another one.
I love and use Linux as my main OS, I find it perfectly usable, and still approve what the Haiku people are trying to do. The main point is IMO that we both belong to the open source family.”
So who is bringing Linux into the equation now?
What I’ve always loved about the BeOS community is the positive attitude. It’s like “OK, so this might not be successful but at least we are trying to break some new ground, doing things a bit differently and we are having fun while doing it”.
It’s good to see that the spirit is still there. I’m sick of the wiseass attitude you get from most other communites in the computing world. Where has the excitement gone?
Since I’ve started a new company I haven’t had the time to mess around with BeOS for over a year (and it wont boot on my new box for some reason). I’m using Linux for most of my work, and sure it gets the job done and I enjoy using Gnome, but it’s so ugly and bloated compared to BeOS.
I’m interested in how far the Java development has come though. Will I be able to run apps like Eclipse on BeOS anytime soon?
Hopefully I will be able to switch from Linux to BeOS/Haiku again, but I don’t see it happening at the moment. The application development is just so much further ahead on the linux side, and I don’t have the time to develop my own apps anymore.
Thanks for the video anyway! It made my day actually.
No, not eclipse. It uses SWT, and theres no SWT port – yet, and not likely to be any time soon.
Tapeworm is greater than or equal to Joe Bushong.
-mikesum32