Submitted by Philip Langdale of the Galeon team just announced that some major Galeon developers decided at the GNOME summit that the way forward for Galeon (which hasn’t gotten much development in the last few months) was to shift focus to expanding the power of Epiphany’s extensions system, and coding Galeon functionality as Epiphany extensions.
Why waste time with those shell apps when you can navigate the web trought Firefox ?
as usual Gnome developers don’t understand the real needs of users.
oh and btw
Konqueror act as file manager and web browser.
Maybe because epiphany is a native application and doesn’t only emulate the gtk widgets? Choice is good.
And, BTW, I use firefox but I’m all but fully satisfied. It use way too much memory and I’ve got the feeling that after a few hours it slow down the whole desktop.
I hope that 1.5 will fix this problems.
> Maybe because epiphany is a native application and
> doesn’t only emulate the gtk widgets? Choice is good.
The same applies for Galeon by the way. Galeon and Epiphany are just sitting on top of the Gecko rendering engine which still is the core of Mozilla. While the window is GTK+/GNOME based (bookmarks editor, toolbar, dialogs etc.) the stuff rendered in the window is still based on mozilla + xul. Basicly Galeon and Epiphany are doing the same thing, use the same resource and render the same thing.
> I use firefox but I’m all but fully satisfied. It use
> way too much memory and I’ve got the feeling that
> after a few hours it slow down the whole desktop.
But how is this possible ? Technically this is absolutely bullshit.
Firefox is directly based on the Mozilla core. So when you compile Firefox as browser then you only get the browser as is. The Mozilla core + Xul + Gecko and all the other stuff.
But if you run Galeon or Epiphany you do even more.
The Mozilla core + Xul + Gecko and all the other stuff + Galeon (or Epiphany) ontop of that + GNOME and GTK libs. So at the end Epiphany (or Galeon) are way more resource hungry than Firefox alone.
This is not just because I say so, this is because it is so and can be verified by everyone else.
This is not just because I say so, this is because it is so and can be verified by everyone else.
Until you actually try it out and see that the original poster was right. In all its goodness, Firefox doesn’t really use your resources in a very efficient way. Galeon and Epiphany feel a lot faster than Firefox does– no matter what the theory says, it’s the practice that matters to me.
Same for KDE. Konqueror as a webbrowser might not be the better than Firefox, but at least it’s faster in usage than Firefox is.
Same applies for Firefox on OSX. Safari beats the crap (literally!) out of Firefox performance-wise. Probably not feature-wise though.
> Galeon and Epiphany feel a lot faster than Firefox
> does– no matter what the theory says, it’s the
> practice that matters to me.
Well but ‘feelings’ or ‘practice’ don’t make the things I said less valid. Valid facts are.
a) Firefox is directly based on the Mozilla code
b) it uses XUL as it’s primary technology
c) Gecko for rendering
d) plugins and other stuff.
Points a) – d) is what Mozilla or Firefox is. To get Galeon or Epiphany working. You need to.
a) Firefox is directly based on the Mozilla code
b) it uses XUL as it’s primary technology
c) Gecko for rendering
d) plugins and other stuff.
——- and ——–
e) GNOME libraries
f) Galeon or Epiphany
Ontop of that. So from resources the Galeon or Epiphany option are more resource hungry than the standalone Firefox or Mozilla versions. But you notice a speed improvement because in case you run GNOME as your primarily desktop the libraries are loaded and cached in memory already.
But the initial poster is wrong since he said that Galeon and Epiphany has nothing much in common with Mozilla or Firefox (at least how I understood him) and that everything in Epiphany is fully GNOM’ified.
This sentence assumes that even the Gecko rendered stuff (buttons, textfiels, togglebuttons and so on) are GNOM’ified as well but they aren’t. They are still XUL based and use the Gecko rendering engine. And since he left out Galeon from this, he also gave me the impression that only Epiphany benefits from full GNOM’ificiation (which is not true as I just confirmed). Galeon and Epiphany are both GNOME windows around the Gecko engine, as well as Firefox’s XUL window is around the Gecko engine (more or less easily said).
You need to get your facts straight.
1) Firefox uses XUL as its primary GUI toolkit.
2) Epiphany uses GTK+ as its only GUI toolkit.
3) They both use Gecko to render web pages.
4) Firefox on GNOME uses XUL in addition to an emulation layer to provide a GTK+ look and feel.
5) All things being equal, Firefox should be more resource intensive and slower than Epiphany/Galeon.
6) Epiphany/Galeon is better integrated into GNOME than Firefox.
7) Epiphany/Galeon is a lot faster and more responsive than Firefox on GNOME.
> You need to get your facts straight.
No, it’s you.
> 1) Firefox uses XUL as its primary GUI toolkit.
Right, thats what I said.
> 2) Epiphany uses GTK+ as its only GUI toolkit.
Also correct.
> 3) They both use Gecko to render web pages.
Correct, but Gecko uses XUL to render the buttons inside it’s view. That is, Buttons, Sliders, Comboboxes, Entryboxes and so on.
> 4) Firefox on GNOME uses XUL in addition to an
> emulation layer to provide a GTK+ look and feel.
Firefox uses some native GNOME Dialogs now as well as some native GTKFilechooser but XUL stays XUL.
> 5) All things being equal, Firefox should be more
> resource intensive and slower than Epiphany/Galeon.
No this is wrong. Epiphany and Galeon are more resource intensive than Firefox. Since you put Galeon or Epiphany ontop of an existing and fully installed Firefox/Mozilla installation. Not just that you also add the requirements of GNOME.
> 6) Epiphany/Galeon is better integrated into GNOME
> than Firefox.
No doubt, but XUL doesn’t integrate into GNOME and that’s the problem.
> 7) Epiphany/Galeon is a lot faster and more
> responsive than Firefox on GNOME.
Care to back this claim up with any values ?
As confirmed by Christian Biesinger (you know, from Mozilla project) Gecko never uses XUL but something more low-level; “on some platforms it asks the OS theme engine to draw the button. if it doesn’t do that, it’s drawn using crossplatform code and CSS” XUL is used for application windows, menus, toolbars etc.
Whichever consumes more resources is subjective. If run nothing but X already, then you need only XUL in addition when running Firefox, but (partial) GNOME when running Epiphany. Which one is heavier, I don’t know but I’d suspect the GNOME subset. (Then again Firefox itself also uses GNOME libraries if available, so go figure.)
But if you already run full GNOME desktop, using XUL is nothing but overhead.
To compare XUL vs. gtk+ looks, try loading “chrome://pippki/content/certManager.xul” in Galeon or Epiphany.
— tko
http://blogs.gnome.org/tko
Err, no, Gecko does not use XUL to render widgets. And Epiphany/Galeon does not use Firefox/Mozilla. They use Gecko. Sheesh!
> Gecko does not use XUL to render widgets.
It does.
> And Epiphany/Galeon does not use Firefox/Mozilla. They use Gecko.
That’s not the point. The point is that Gecko is part of the Mozilla framework and thus rely on using XUL as it’s primary widget drawing toolkit. So it’s kinda regardless if there is Firefox or Mozilla around it or not. The technology still is the same. You still can not get a separate Gecko engine only. This has been planed 3-4 years ago or so with the project GRE or how it was called. But it has never shaped to become reality. So whenever you install Gecko you are somehow forced to install Firefox or Mozilla to get it. Even if not, Gecko is a complex thing. Why don’t you people go to the Mozilla project page and get some clue before talking about these things. I mean it’s all written there, there is no need to turn true facts into lies only to have it suit your own opinion. Don’t believe me ? Then go to the project page and get aware yourself.
> Feelings and practice are extremely important.
No doubt.
> Whatever metric/reasoning you may be using is
> supposed to accurately predict what will happen in
> practice. If it doesn’t it just shows that your
> metric/reasoning is somehow flawed.
Metric reasoning is the correct approach in proving things. Metric proves that 1+5 is not 9 and it also proves basicly everything in our life. A subjective feeling or opinion doesn’t make it real as long as it’s not viewed objective. And please do us a favor and don’t turn true facts into lies.
Gee, I now feel dumber for having read your posts.
as you said:
Why don’t you people go to the Mozilla project page and get some clue before talking about these things. I mean it’s all written there, there is no need to turn true facts into lies only to have it suit your own opinion.
Next time please provide links to the facts before stating your opinions. Thanks.
> Gee, I now feel dumber for having read your posts.
Maybe it’s not related to my post but rather than your overall mental capabilities.
> Next time please provide links to the facts before
> stating your opinions. Thanks.
How easy is this ? http://www.mozilla.org is all you need.
Hey Mr Anon. 84.129.234.
Read this page from http://www.mozilla.org
What is Gecko?
The embeddable, cross-platform Gecko rendering engine is the heart of Mozilla. It has no user interface; it just understands web content and displays it. This ability is valuable in an enormous set of applications, some of which have little to do with a “browser.” For example, Gecko (in concert with XUL; see below) is used to display the user interface of Mozilla applications.
Gecko began development in 1997 and has evolved into a lean, fast and robust layout engine that features an architecture that is open, portable, extensible and customizable. It has been embedded in a variety of third-party software and hardware products, from HTML-to-PNG converters to commercial IDEs. Gecko serves as the rendering engine for the latest Compuserve 7.0 service, and is the engine in the recently released Netscape 7.0 Preview Release and a beta test for the AOL service.
Other examples include several projects that are pure browsers:
* Galeon (ignores XUL; is specific to the GNOME desktop for Unix/Linux; has been popular for the past year),
* Chimera (ignores XUL; is Mac OS X-specific),
* K-Meleon (ignores XUL; is Windows-specific), and
* m/b (uses XUL and is cross platform).
Source : http://www.mozilla.org/start/1.0/guide/toolkit.html#gecko
I’ll post more if I find it
Ooo, cool.. I didn’t know Gecko was used in Compuserve. I should have checked that out. Wonder how it compared to AOL’s embedded IE.
rm6990, I was one of the first contributors to Galeon when it was first introduced to the GNOME community so I know what I am talking.
XUL buttons, spinboxes, scrollbars etc. is being rendered inside the Gecko window. This is a fact for many years and no, neother of the above browsers can ignore XUL in any ways.
As you can see on this screenshot (Epiphany)
http://images.freshmeat.net/screenshots/36942.png
The “Google Search”, “I’m Feeling Lucky” and the Search entry are XUL widgets.
As you can see on this screenshot (Epiphany)
http://ftp.sun.ac.za/ftp/iso-images/gnoppix/www/pages/screenshots/g…
The round group selection buttons are XUL buttons. Go and compare them with GNOME/GTK+ group selection buttons. Do you see that they are not anti aliased ?
So please stop talking thatthey are ignoring XUL. They are not ignoring it because it’s impossible.
Don’t make me get the source code…
its entirely possible they are rendered in gecko.
But really, does it matter?
When I used galeon it was faster than mozilla at the time. I think firefox is faster now, but I haven’t used galeon in a long time.
> Don’t make me get the source code. Its entirely
> possible they are rendered in gecko. But really, does
> it matter?
It does, since some people are trying hard to convince me the oposite.
Here a screenshot of the recent Firefox
http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss8cq.png
Compare the buttons and objects inside the window with the buttons and objects inside the dialog (both Firefox). While the dialogs are already GTK’ified and uses my personal chosen Clearlooks theme the stuff inside the renderer is not using the Clearlooks theme but the colors. Now this is Firefox and not Galeon or Epiphany but the same applies for them. Simply test it up on your own. Load up http://bugzilla.gnome.org/ for a test and look how the buttons and objects look there compared to the buttons and objects found elsewhere in Epiphany or Galeon. Look at the small square selection buttons, the ones in the rendered window are white with black arrow, the ones in the dialog uses white with a blue arrow (and differently shaped). Look at the pushbutton inside the rendered window and look the pushbutton inside the dialog. XUL or not XUL ?
> Did you click on the link even? If you did, you would
> see it obviously wasn’t me “talking thatthey are
> ignoring XUL”, but it was in-fact the Mozilla
> project. If you feel they are being innaccurate,
> contact them and ask them to change the webpage,
> don’t bitch at me about it. There isn’t much I can do
> about it.
While there is a mistake on their site which obviously needs to get fixed badly it still don’t make the things I wrote less valid. Even Mozilla page maintainers make mistakes but then, you shouldn’t take everything as word if you don’t prove it on your own. You know getting said something is ok, but veryfiying what was told to you is even better.
Go to http://www.mozilla.org/ and tell me those buttons look anything like the ones on bugzilla. They must be rendering the buttons. Gecko renders things. Maybe its gecko rendering the buttons..
Now, go dig through the mozilla source code and prove your point with code examples, as punishment for wasting our time with your retarded screenshot evidence.
> Go to http://www.mozilla.org/ and tell me those buttons
> look anything like the ones on bugzilla. They must be
> rendering the buttons. Gecko renders things. Maybe its
> gecko rendering the buttons..
I am not sure if I can follow what you want.
> Now, go dig through the mozilla source code and prove
> your point with code examples, as punishment for
> wasting our time with your retarded screenshot
> evidence.
Why ? The screenshot already proves from the latest version of public released firefox, that the gecko rendered html page don’t use GTK’s native widgets as compared to the buttons and objects found in the dialog. Since it’s not doing this then it’s clear that the code for native widget rendering doesn’t exist either. If you still don’t want to believe this then why don’t you test this with your version of Epiphany or Galeon (assuming that you use one of them). Everyone else can do this on their own in case they don’t believe it.
Here you see KDE’s KHTML rendering native widgets.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2329/gnome23zy.png
[i]XUL or not XUL ?</>
They are all XUL just like the whole interface. AFAIK Gecko renders *all* of that XUL no matter where it is.
The fact that the buttons etc. don’t use your theme is just because Firefox on Linux is incomplete in this way. I think that those buttons have the default non-themed GTK look.
Take a look at Firefox on winXP and you’ll see those same buttons have winXP native look.
[i]XUL or not XUL ?<i/>
They are all XUL just like the whole interface. AFAIK Gecko renders *all* of that XUL no matter where it is.
The fact that the buttons etc. don’t use your theme is just because Firefox on Linux is incomplete in this way. I think that those buttons have the default non-themed GTK look.
Take a look at Firefox on winXP and you’ll see those same buttons have winXP native look.
(I hated my accidental all italic post
WTF…?
So please stop talking thatthey are ignoring XUL. They are not ignoring it because it’s impossible
Ummmm, HELLO? Did you click on the link even? If you did, you would see it obviously wasn’t me “talking thatthey are ignoring XUL”, but it was in-fact the Mozilla project. If you feel they are being innaccurate, contact them and ask them to change the webpage, don’t bitch at me about it. There isn’t much I can do about it.
Have a nice day.
:: Metric reasoning is the correct approach in proving
:: things. Metric proves that 1+5 is not 9 and ….
No sir, your reasoning is that 1+5+unknown_epsilon is not 9. And you keep insisting on that because you do not factor “unknown_epsilon” in — probably because your intuition tells you it must be almost 0. And people keep telling you that it is in fact non-zero… that they are experiencing 1+5+… > 9… Then you go around and complete your own sophism by saying they are talking bullshit, since it is obvious to *you* that “unknown_epsilon” is almost zero “becuase 1 + 5 is not nine…”
And you keep going circles like that instead of researching what is the integration problem that makes that “unkown_epsilon” be a big quantity rather than the expected negligible value you expected.
:: A subjective feeling or opinion doesn’t make it real as
:: long as it’s not viewed objective….
There is nothing more objective than the physical world… so, if people keep finding that it is slower, instead of belittling those people you should try to figure out where things went wrong and where your model[1] fails to capture some of the behaviours.
True is that it would be better if they came with a quantitative report (say 35% slower when doing X) than a qualitative report (it feels slower/much more sluggish than brand Y)… but the fact there are such qualitative reports signals something that is not working as expected.
Truth is on the the measurements, and if your reasoning does not predict what measures say, then either: (i) you have not fully understood the problem, (ii) you have a “bug”, (iii) the problem is intractable and you approximations/simplification were too gross.
Say goodbye to you armchair-and-blog-reading “uber-hacker” mentality… do welcome and embrace a more engineering-oriented mentality: model, measure, measure, measure, rinse, repeat.
[1] Assuming you have a model, which you obviusly don’t… you are only giving a 10,000 feet description of the landscape.
> 3) They both use Gecko to render web pages.
Correct, but Gecko uses XUL to render the buttons inside it’s view. That is, Buttons, Sliders, Comboboxes, Entryboxes and so on.
No. XUL uses Gecko, or rather, XUL is rendered by Gecko just like CSS and HTML is rendered by Gecko.
Correct othervise.
> 5) All things being equal, Firefox should be more
> resource intensive and slower than Epiphany/Galeon.
No this is wrong. Epiphany and Galeon are more resource intensive than Firefox. Since you put Galeon or Epiphany ontop of an existing and fully installed Firefox/Mozilla installation. Not just that you also add the requirements of GNOME.
Yes, but with Firefox there is *much* more XUL to render than there is with Galeon or Epiphany.
It wouldn’t make much sense to run Galeon without Gnome and that means Galeon is not taking any more resources than other Gnome programs. One of the (claimed) advantages of Desktop Environments is shared resources, you know.
Furthermore, unless Firefox is compiled without Gnome support it will also use Gnome libraries if available. This is the way the official FF is built.
Let’s take a look of the Gentoo ebuild… You’ll need the gnome-vfs package for Gnome support. Hmm… now if we take a look at the gnome-vfs ebuild you’ll get a bit more Gnome deps…
> 7) Epiphany/Galeon is a lot faster and more
> responsive than Firefox on GNOME.
Care to back this claim up with any values ?
No, but logically it should be true: With firefox you have a lot of XUL chrome to render by the slow Gecko. At the same time this XUL/Gecko combo has to emulate the look of GTK and it’s theme engine and render web pages.
However, to be honest, I’ve never noticed Firefox’s widgets being much slower than pure GTK.
PS. I’m not the poster you replied to.
> Well but ‘feelings’ or ‘practice’ don’t make the things I said less valid. Valid facts are.
Feelings and practice are extremely important. Whatever metric/reasoning you may be using is supposed to accurately predict what will happen in practice. If it doesn’t it just shows that your metric/reasoning is somehow flawed.
> I use firefox but I’m all but fully satisfied. It use
> way too much memory and I’ve got the feeling that
> after a few hours it slow down the whole desktop.
But how is this possible ? Technically this is absolutely bullshit.
well, I suppose this is due to the interaction between firefox and xorg/XAA. I know for sure that x11perf results drop after a few hours, and specifically in the -aaXXtext tests, and, for example, gnome-terminal feels more sluggish, until I launch glxgears (this could be related to bug https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4320, I learned about this trick here). I’m not sure how this can influence the rest of the desktop.
Nice to see someone giving a balanced answer to silly comments people over here make (readers and some editors).
With more people like you maybe OSNews has a chance… let’s hope!
dô,Lôb
> I use firefox but I’m all but fully satisfied. It use
> way too much memory and I’ve got the feeling that
> after a few hours it slow down the whole desktop.
But how is this possible ? Technically this is absolutely bullshit.
Read the original post again. The OP didn’t claim Galeon being better in this matter.
I used Galeon compiled on top of Firefox for quite a while until I got tired of the overall slowness of it and especially the really bad memory leak problem. It was so bad that I had to quite Galeon for night – if I didn’t all my memory inc. swap would be filled in the morning to the very last byte… (not always, though)
Now I’ve switched from using Firefox/Galeon to Opera/Konqueror and now web browsing is more enjoyable than ever.
At the same time I switched to KDE as I find it to be much faster than Gnome esp the new 2.12.
It really feels as if I had gotten a new faster computer. And the overall quality of KDE and it’s apps compared to Gnome… There is no comparison actually.
I’m very happy that I did this
Computing is fun again.
I think your “really” telling lies.
Oh really? Ever heard of oom kills? I know them now thanks to Firefox.
And yes, I even tried the famous “Firefox mem leak fix”. Helped a bit but I still got an oom…
Well, I’ve never had that problem. I know others have had, but I haven’t.
Most issues with FF is due to poor plugins or extensions.
However, I do think a slightly more Gnomeish mozilla-based browser is a good idea.
Even better would be KDE (and KDE apps) developed according to the fundamental ideas in the Gnome HIG.
“Even better would be KDE (and KDE apps) developed according to the fundamental ideas in the Gnome HIG.”
No, no, no, no!!!!
Please don’t f*** up KDE too!
After opening this thread in booth from a fresh start.
firefox-bin
Total: 93.4 MiB
RSS: 31.0 MiB
Shared: 16.6 MiB
epiphnay
Total: 86.4 MiB
RSS: 28.6 MiB
Shared: 19.2 Mib
Opening News Archive,Features,Interviews,Editorials,View Tpoics in new tabs.
firefox-bin
Total: 102.4 MiB
RSS: 39.2 MiB
Shared: 18.8 MiB
epiphany
Total: 92.6 MiB
RSS: 33.9 MiB
Shared: 19.1 Mib
Conclusion:
This discussion is pointless.
I prefer epiphany over firefox because
a) It has a nicer UI
b) It doesn crash as much
c) If it crash it restores state
d) It restores state on login
e) It’s more integrated with Gnome
Could there just be a toy for people living in another planet (Epiphany) and a usable one (Galeon) ?
Epiphany is the simbol of GNOME done wrong, where the apparent simplicity makes it harder to use. Passing through poor and undocumentend extensions is just wrong. Example : how can I use the right button mouse for gesture with the mouse gesture extension ? Answer : you can’t. Mouse gesture with the middle button is really hard for me (it is hard to click on a mouse wheel).
It’s just cracking browser and both epiphany and galeon are lighter. It’s a shame about Galeon since it’s had some innvotive features before even firfox and I love the portal page idea. Galeon was my first taste of Linux over 4 years ago and i loved it from the outset.
Please guys, dont give up on galeon. Galeon is superior to epiphany in every way.
approach seems reasonable.
Take a browser with very little in it, and add extra functionality as extensions. Seems wise to me – now where did I see that before?
Extending Ephiphany with Galeon functionality through extensions is a better approach than developing two different browsers on the same codebase (one with very little in it (Ephiphany), and one with quite a bit (Galeon)).
But of course, the modular approach has always been my favourite, so I’m very biased on this one.
I realize that Epiphany is a pretty unpopular project with many people, but it has improved greatly since it was first bundled in to Gnome. The Epiphany version that ships with Gnome 2.12 is actually a pretty good browser. I’ve actually made the transition over from Firefox, and have been very happy with it overall. There are a few items I miss (adblock is the biggest… I know there are CSS tricks, but that isn’t nearly as friendly or usable; some of the options that can only be set through gconf and/or about:config), but they are minor compared to the benefits (easily searchable bookmarks and history is great; much easier keyboard navigation, should you choose to use it, than what I saw in Firefox).
If the Galeon developers bring some of their more advanced magic over to Epiphany, it seems to me that everybody wins. Gnome’s default browser becomes more usable and widely acceptable to people. Firefox will still be used be many people who want the same browser across multiple OSs.
Epiphany has extensions to do a lot of the cool stuff Firefox can do (like Web Dev stuff, page info, even adblock).
I’m not sure which is faster. But I have been an Epiphany user since late last year. Mostly because it blends with the rest of GNOME.
Some may complain that Epiphany lacks functionality. I guess not much of a “pro web surfer”. Whatever Epiphany lacks, I don’t miss much.
If I understanding correctly, “coding Galeon functionality as Epiphany extensions” won’t effect Epiphany’s elegance and simplicity. Therefore whatever development the Galeon guys are bringing over are highly welcomed.
I’m not sure which is faster. But I have been an Epiphany user since late last year. Mostly because it blends with the rest of GNOME.
Now this is really sad. People are stuck with a crappy browser called Epiphany just because they use Gnome. I’d rather be stuck with Konqueror for the same reasons…
Thank god I was smart enough to switch to KDE before going crazy with Gnome and it’s pathetic apps and super stubborn/selfish/stupid developers.
“Thank god I was smart enough to switch to KDE before going crazy with Gnome and it’s pathetic apps and super stubborn/selfish/stupid developers.”
And my respect for the KDE community continues to decline. Why does KDE attract all the idiots?
> And my respect for the KDE community continues to decline. Why does KDE attract all the idiots?
Would you please stop diffamating KDE using people ? If GNOME developers would have that much brains then they won’t need to re-invent themselves all the time.
“Would you please stop diffamating KDE using people ?”
I made no stab at the quality of KDE, I called into question the character of the “KDE community” which is very poor indeed.
If GNOME developers would have that much brains then they won’t need to re-invent themselves all the time.
Why did the KDE developers go and develop KHTML when they could have just used Gecko? According to [0]Wikipedia, KHTML was introduced in 2000 with KDE2 while the Mozilla project was launched in 1998? Im sure they had valid reasons just as the Gnome developers had when they decided to develop Galeon/Epiphany.
[0]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHTML
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gecko_%28layout_engine%29
“Why did the KDE developers go and develop KHTML when they could have just used Gecko?”
I’m clad they did. To answer why, I’ll quote myself from the beginning of this thread:
“I used Galeon compiled on top of Firefox for quite a while until I got tired of the overall slowness of it and especially the really bad memory leak problem. …”
“Now I’ve switched from using Firefox/Galeon to Opera/Konqueror and now web browsing is more enjoyable than ever.”
“I’m [g]lad they did. To answer why, I’ll quote myself from the beginning of this thread:”
Yes if you read the rest of my reply:
“Im sure they had valid reasons just as the Gnome developers had when they decided to develop Galeon/Epiphany.”
Thank you for validing the existence of Galeon/Epiphany and proving my point. Decisions were made by the KDE/Gnome developers and were both happy. You love KHTML and I love Epiphany.
Thank you for validing the existence of Galeon/Epiphany and proving my point. Decisions were made by the KDE/Gnome developers and were both happy. You love KHTML and I love Epiphany.
Well… you’re wellcome
Agreed…
And my respect for the KDE community continues to decline. Why does KDE attract all the idiots?
Since when passionate feelings have made people idiots? It was that kind of feelings that kept me using Gnome for so long regardless of its shortcomings.
There is all kinds of people in every community out there. Is it smart to attack the whole community, just because there (inevitably) is some “idiots”?
[/i]”Since when passionate feelings have made people idiots?”[/i]
Passion is one thing, calling the Gnome developers “super stubborn/selfish/stupid” is completely different. Not only is it immature, its also clearly trolling which is a very common trait in the KDE community.
“There is all kinds of people in every community out there.”
Yes and for some reason KDE attracts the worst elements of a community namely trolls and indvdiuals that show no respect for the hard work of others. I’m sick of hearing all this garbage coming from the KDE community about how terrible Gnome is.
Passion is one thing, calling the Gnome developers “super stubborn/selfish/stupid” is completely different. Not only is it immature, its also clearly trolling which is a very common trait in the KDE community.
In that case you don’t understand passion. Throughout the human history it has always been something that makes people sometimes act stupid or say something without thinking it through.
Yes and for some reason KDE attracts the worst elements of a community namely trolls and indvdiuals that show no respect for the hard work of others. I’m sick of hearing all this garbage coming from the KDE community about how terrible Gnome is.
Are you *really* under the belief that the Gnome community doesn’t have its good share of these people too? I’ve not noticed much of a difference between the camps in this matter. And remember, I was a Gnome user before…
The fact that I don’t agree with Gnome devs doesn’t mean that I don’t respect their work. And if your comment were meant to be taken literally I wouldn’t respect the work of the KDE devs either, which of course if far from the truth.
“In that case you don’t understand passion. Throughout the human history it has always been something that makes people sometimes act stupid or say something without thinking it through.”
But didnt you just say:
“Since when passionate feelings have made people idiots?”
Yes you and the KDE community are “idiots” because you “act stupid”. Thank you for once again proving my point for me.
“Are you *really* under the belief that the Gnome community doesn’t have its good share of these people too?”
After using Linux on the desktop for more than 2 years and on the server for more than 5 years, its been my experince that the Gnome community is very passive and lighthearted while the KDE community is aggressive and quite frankly rude.
“The fact that I don’t agree with Gnome devs doesn’t mean that I don’t respect their work.”
And yet you call them “super stubborn/selfish/stupid”. That sounds unrespectful to me.
After using Linux on the desktop for more than 2 years and on the server for more than 5 years
heh, noob
“heh, noob”
I’m not sure to what your referring. Before 1999 and IBM’s endorsment of Linux, it wasent even a blip on the radar. Desktoplinux has only been bearable since 2003, for me atleast.
> Yes you and the KDE community are “idiots” because you
> “act stupid”. Thank you for once again proving my point
> for me.
Calling the KDE community to be “idiots” is plain dump and shows that you are the only one that “acts stupid” here. To say I do feel sorry for you, the KDE community feels sorry for you and I bet the GNOME community don’t want supporters like you too. If GNOME can only prove itself by diffamating others and disrespecting other peoples work then it clearly shows that people should decide for KDE. Not just because of its supperior technology but also because such rude attitude like yours should in no way be tolerated.
This whole community thread is pointless. Its not the GNOME community calling the KDE community idiots. Its a couple people posting their flames on this forum.
Now please try to act your age. Unless you’re 8, then, nm.
> Its a couple people posting their flames on this forum.
Grown up in the GNOME community I can tell you that the biggest heat spreaders are amongst the core developers. Users usually don’t care much enough for GNOME to defend it (there are exceptions of course). Those who program it usually feel much more offended and react emotionally and even more agressive.
I also made the experience that specially on OSN users flame more in KDE threads than the other way around and I wonder why. Maybe truth hurts, maybe it’s just OSN exclusive expert moderators or chief editors who can’t stand other peoples opinions. I don’t know – it’s just my opinion.
Intriguing observation!
I wonder what statistics one can gather from monitoring censorship. If the data can be processed without bias.. perhaps a perl script could do it.. hrmmm >;)
> Yes you and the KDE community are “idiots” because you
> “act stupid”. Thank you for once again proving my point
> for me.
Calling the KDE community to be “idiots” is plain dump and shows that you are the only one that “acts stupid” here. To say I do feel sorry for you, the KDE community feels sorry for you and I bet the GNOME community don’t want supporters like you too. If GNOME can only prove itself by diffamating others and disrespecting other peoples work then it clearly shows that people should decide for KDE. Not just because of its supperior technology but also because such rude attitude like yours should in no way be tolerated. The GNOME community is reducing itself because people want to keep distance from individuals like you. We see this with every new former GNOME user we are winning daily for KDE.
Ali, your not going to sucker me into a fight with you. We all know your pathetic tactics like posting a reply over and over again just to avoid being modded down. Maybe if you try and improve your behavior I may have a coversation with you. Someday Ali….
You seem to lack arguments or why do you start namecalling people ? It’s a common tactics of GNOME suckers to do this as soon as they have been shown to how they are. I think the GNOME crowd are the ones that need to improve their behavior or why do we all have to read everywhere how ignorant GNOME developers are, how much they don’t know what users want and how much other stuff there is ? Sorry bud, but your namecalling will not get the result you are expecting.
“In that case you don’t understand passion. Throughout the human history it has always been something that makes people sometimes act stupid or say something without thinking it through.”
But didnt you just say:
“Since when passionate feelings have made people idiots?”
It is a well know fact that even the smartest people do stupid things sometimes. And more often so when they feel passionate about something.
Acting sometimes stupid doesn’t make people idiots.
And yet you call them “super stubborn/selfish/stupid”. That sounds unrespectful to me.
Ok, so if I don’t have much respect for Joe Redneck as a person I can still respect his work as a e.g. construction worker…
“Passion is one thing, calling the Gnome developers “super stubborn/selfish/stupid” is completely different. Not only is it immature, its also clearly trolling which is a very common trait in the KDE community.”
this is true. the reason why is that the KDE desktop has a lot more to compensate for. its a bit like the unintelligent person who calls others uninteliigent, the ugly person who calls others ugly, or the homosexual who dislikes homosexuals because they are homosexual themselves and want to draw attention away from it.
“Passion is one thing, calling the Gnome developers “super stubborn/selfish/stupid” is completely different. Not only is it immature, its also clearly trolling which is a very common trait in the KDE community.”
this is true. the reason why is that the KDE desktop has a lot more to compensate for. its a bit like the unintelligent person who calls others uninteliigent, the ugly person who calls others ugly, or the homosexual who dislikes homosexuals because they are homosexual themselves and want to draw attention away from it.
What?! This is one stupid post. Plain and simple. LOL
have you reached primary school yet?
have you reached primary school yet?
Lighten up. Life is not that serious. And neither is this thread.
Want to compare Konqueror to Epiphany? I used to compare Konqueror to Galeon back in 2002, Galeon was winning…
Why didn’t the Epiphany guys work more closely with the Galeon guys?
Let’s compare:
GNOME – KDE
metacity – kdwm
nautilus – konqueror
epiphany – konqueror
gaim – kopete
gimp – kolourpaint
gnumeric – kspread
abiword – kword
dia – kivio
anjuta – kdevelop
glade – qtdesigner
gtotem – noatun
audacity – krec
gnome-terminal – konsole
gconf – control center
sound juicer – kaudiocreator
evolution – kmail
gpdf – kpdf
calculator – kcalc
bluefish – quanta
gnome:
dvdrip
kino
gxmame
freeciv
gnucash
gnomemeeting
kde:
kasteroids
kstars
kalzium
kturtle
khangman
kgpg
khexedit
kpalmdoc
k3b
rosegarden
amarok
I’m sure I’m missing a few, but it seems to me like KDE comes out ahead.
Now is that because KDE’s developers are simply superior or that the GNOME developers are selfish/stubborn/stupid?
Judging from what happened between Epiphany and Galeon, I would think stubborn at the least. Galeon existed and was better than Mozilla, or anything else at the time. Tabbed browsing came from Galeon, as far as I know. And what did GNOME decide to do? Use Epiphany as the default browser, which was horribly buggy at the time.
Selfish and stupid also apply, IMO.
However, they could prove me wrong by making GNOME 3.0 better than KDE 3.4.x. Think it will happen? Then make it happen!
I use both at the same time, BTW.
I’m not sure what your trying to prove, your list is nowhere near complete and extremly KDE biased.
Go to http://www.gnome-apps.org , http://www.gnomefiles.org
Okay, so rosegarden, amarok and quanta are not included in the default KDE install + koffice.
But neither are dvdrip, kino, freeciv, gxmame, or anjuta included in the default GNOME install + goffice.
I’d appreciate more detailed explanation of why you disagree.
I’m not trying to prove anything, just stating my opinion with examples to back it up. I am interested why you thought my list was extremely KDE biased. I thought it was mostly fair..
> gimp – kolourpaint
gimp -> krita
planner -> task juggler
not existing -> kpresenter
not existing -> kivio
not existing -> umbrello
not existing -> kstars
not existing -> klogo
not existing -> keducation
rhythmbox -> amarok
and and and
gimp -> krita
planner -> task juggler
[Criawips] -> kpresenter
[Dia] -> kivio
[Gaphor] -> umbrello
[Skynet] -> kstars
[[0]] -> klogo
[[1]] -> keducation
rhythmbox -> amarok
[1] I don’t know what this application is. Did you mean KTurtle?
[0] Keducation is not a singular application.
> [Criawips] -> kpresenter
Criawips is still just a name and the guy is still hacking on it whenever he finds time. It’s nowhere near usable or good enough for production. KPresenter is and works flawlessly well.
> [Dia] -> kivio
DIA is a joke and not reliable for production usage.
> [Gaphor] -> umbrello
Gaphor is nowhere close to Umbrello.
[Skynet] -> kstars
I don’t know this app but some of the others you named are nowhere good enough for production usage nor are they reliable. Unfortunately I had the situation that I had to draw plenty of graphs for university and DIA always caused a lot of problems like crashing, like saving corrupt files, like printing strange results and and and. The KDE counterpart Kivio was more like Visio and worked like that. I had to use it to get my work done and finished. Same applies for Gaphor which is nowhere. Just throwing some use cases on a canvas doesn’t make it a good UML application. Same applies for Planner compared to Task Juggler for KDE.
Look it’s ok that GNOME has these tools, but sadly they are totally immature to the counterparts found on KDE. And I say this – not because I want put KDE in better light here, just because the KDE counterparts were the only ones that worked reliable enough, were mature enough compared to the money hungry alternatives found for Windows. And I tell you this, not because I am up for a flame fest towards GNOME, I say this because I really was in need of these tools for over 4 years in a go (the time where I was at uni) and now as IT-Professional in the company that I am working on. Project leading.
DIA is a joke and not reliable for production usage.
No, I disagree. Dia is fine for production use. Its the GIMP of diagram editors.
> No, I disagree. Dia is fine for production use. Its the
> GIMP of diagram editors.
While I consider The GIMP as a great art and great application for image manipulating which still has no alternative (not even Krita) DIA on the other hand is a worse example of slammed together program that doesn’t work. I had to use it, I went through many hours of frustrations day in day out until I decided to give Kivio and Umbrello a go and realized that I wasted a lot of my spare time with DIA. Maybe one day DIA can become a serious contender to Kivio or Umbrello but until then it has to go a very long path.
> bluefish – quanta
bluefish is not a gnome app, it can use gnome-vfs optional at compile time, nothing else, there are some attempts to follow the HIG but mostly completly ignores it.
screem – quanta
would be a more accurate app comparison in terms of being gnome / kde apps, and in terms of features.
“NVU – quanta” and “NVU > quanta” would be more accurate.
NVU ? bluefish is at least a GTK based app and features gnome-vfs support and some HIG support. NVU is not a gnome app, and is IMO worse than bluefish, quanta, and screem, for getting anything done.
I use both at the same time, BTW.
Jeez, that must be quite a feat. Do you have the KDE toolbar sit on top of Gnome’s and each WM take up half the screen?
(I’m kidding of course)
And my respect for the KDE community continues to decline. Why does KDE attract all the idiots?
Have you ever considered that maybe these people only *seem* like idiots? Propably not. It wouldn’t fit into your seemingly black&white world.
So why would KDE users act “a bit funny” and therefore look like “idiots”? Maybe that’s just because they’re really enthusiastic about their great DE.
Understandably this is not the case with Gnome users who just can’t nothing but humbly take what ever crap is given to them from their godlike, allmighty, allknowing devs.
When I was a Gnome user I rarely had anything good to say about it. In fact If I said something about it to my friends I propably cursed it or said that its nothing special – like it really isn’t. Gnome also made me to claim that Linux is not ready for Desktop yet.
This was totally different with KDE. For the first time it has made me really enthusiastic about Linux Desktop. My girlfried propably thinks I’m crazy after I gave her a full tour on KDE
PS. I switched from Gnome 2.10 to KDE 3.4.2. Before the final switch I briefly checked Gnome 2.12 too only to find out it is worse than ever. Especially the performance was horrible. To me it seems that it is it’s all downhill for the poor little Gnome. We all know who is responsible for that.
> And my respect for the KDE community continues to decline. Why does KDE attract all the idiots?
Stop generalizing, I happen to be a KDE user and I don’t share the sentiment of the poster you replied to. The fact of the matter is that there’s a vocal (and sometimes obnoxious) minority – from both camps – hanging out in online forums. You, my friend, fall into this category and you know why? Because instead of moving on to next article when the discussion got out of hand you stopped to post a message where you provoked other people by calling them idiots.
Think about it.
where you provoked other people by calling them idiots.
I have not even once called people idiots in this discussion. In fact I’ve “defended” people from being categorized too easily as idiots, like in my last post.
Indeed, you didn’t.
In case you didn’t notice – I was responding to carbon-12, not you. Follow the link in the header of my previous post.
In case you didn’t notice – I was responding to carbon-12, not you. Follow the link in the header of my previous post.
Sorry, my mistake. I’m not sure why I first thought your answer was to me even though you clearly quoted the other poster. I realized this too late. And that link in the header… well I’m new to this forum.
Anyways, I’m still the poster you “don’t share the sentiment” with…
“Think about it.”
well at least he has that faculty. and peeps that do don’t use KDE.
Don’t bother, I’m not going to bite.
You know … more polished the widgets are, easier they slide and so everything feels faster and smoother. I know that Gnome users don’t appreciate realism, but if you really have a nice, realistic desktop with shadows, transparency, and stuff, then all you need to add is nice polished theme and some grease.
I despise every application that does not start on K. They are good for amateurs but power users need some extra functionality – the more the better. I can’t wait TrollTech is bought by MS, or at least Enlightenment 18.0 prealpha is released.
You know … more polished the widgets are, easier they slide and so everything feels faster and smoother.
You can’t fool us. You’re clearly just a Gnome user pretending “a stupid KDE user”.
But now that we are at this, could you please tell me why Gnome 2.12 is sooo slow? This is the release where they added more polish with the default Clearlooks theme, BTW.
It’s not just the widgets, I literally had to wait for the desktop to redraw after changing desktops…
With the same low end hardware which really shows every difference in performance, KDE 3.4 feels a lot faster and more responsive than Gnome 2.10. even with all the eye candy enabled.
Let’s take kwin vs metacity for an example… Oh my god what a difference! While kwin is as fast as Openbox3, Metacity is one of the most sluggish feeling window manager I’ve ever used. And this is true even after enabling the halfpaged “reduced resource usage” in gconf.
I can’t wait for KDE 3.5. According to some beta reviews it will be even faster…
How does one know that Epiphany runs faster and is more responsive than Firefox? Simple. Run the damn program. You can theorize all you want.
Why did the KDE developers go and develop KHTML when they could have just used Gecko? According to [0]Wikipedia, KHTML was introduced in 2000 with KDE2 while the Mozilla project was launched in 1998? Im sure they had valid reasons just as the Gnome developers had when they decided to develop Galeon/Epiphany.
Nice providing wikipedia links, but you have to considering the facts in the history.
It’ is true that the Mozilla project was launched in 1998, but the code was not in a usable state. It was not even possible to build, as lots of the Netscape code was not released(IP issues). And as history shows, most of(all?)it had to be rewritten anyway.
KHTML was introduced in 2000 with KDE2, as in KDE2 was released. Work on KHTML actually started before Mozilla was introduced. And even more important in 2000 when KDE2 was released Mozilla was not even close to be usable. The first really usable releases was the 0.9 series in 2001(but KHTML was still ahead back then).
G’day gents, even I can’t fight off a hoard of angry KDE users.
Have a nice day.
Gnome is a crap piece of desktop made by a bunch of morons.
kde has prevailed.
WTF?
Please explain me why EVERY gnome-related news ends up with a lot of kde or simply anti-gnome trolls starting flames.
Get a life, guys.
> Please explain me why EVERY gnome-related news ends up
> with a lot of kde or simply anti-gnome trolls starting
> flames.
The problem is why reasonable and very good backed comments by users are getting moderated down. Specially when having a slight touch of criticising GNOME. And comments where a whole community (the KDE one) is being titled to be idiots moderated up to +5. Seriously OSN totally lost all it’s credibility and seriousity with their crappy and very abusive moderating system. I doubt GNOME can keep up showing a good face in the public for a longer period if this kind of behavior isn’t changed. No company will take GNOME serious if this is the only way of public communicating.
Please explain me why EVERY gnome-related news ends up with a lot of kde or simply anti-gnome trolls starting flames.
Basically, they have a hard time accepting their favorite geek fetish isn’t considered the holy grail of free desktop projects.
Please explain me why EVERY gnome-related news ends up with a lot of kde or simply anti-gnome trolls starting flames.
Maybe its because they love linux, have seen and understood the advantages of KDE, and therefore are embarrassed of the fact that there are people out there, who try to promote Linux for Desktop with something like Gnome.
> Maybe its because they love linux, have seen and
> understood the advantages of KDE, and therefore are
> embarrassed of the fact that there are people out
> there, who try to promote Linux for Desktop with
> something like Gnome.
Well written!
<- KDE user
I was honestly under the impression that the Gnome camp flamed more in KDE threads than KDE users flame in Gnome threads. It reminds me of the “This Land” flash from the last elections – http://www.jibjab.com/Home.aspx
As a conservative*, I thought it skewered Bush pretty well and let Kerry off lightly. Then I read on a liberal board how everyone there thought it bashed Kerry too hard and let Bush off easy.
I realized there that attacks always seem worse when directed at one’s self (or one’s group). Each party thought the cartoon made fun of them more than the opposition. Similarly, it seems KDE and Gnome each feel that the other side is guilty of worse flaming/zealotry.
In reality both sides have their share of nuts, and it’s pretty useless to argue about it since our perceptions will be skewed by our alignment.
*I’m sorry to have mentioned politics, was necessary to explain how I came to my conclusion
“No company will take GNOME serious if this is the only way of public communicating.”
that seems a very odd and out-of-touch comment considering that the vast majority are taking GNOME seriously when none are taking up KDE.
> “No company will take GNOME serious if this is the only
> way of public communicating.”
>
> that seems a very odd and out-of-touch comment
> considering that the vast majority are taking GNOME
> seriously when none are taking up KDE.
I wasn’t refering to the companies that support GNOME now (those who have the developers hired) such as Novell, Red Hat, Sun and so on. I refer to the corporate companies that GNOME is targeted for (that is every else company that still uses Windows).
Xi Chen from Grande Prairie, Alberta is a big fat FAG!!!!!!!
–Xi Chen’s gay lover
kde:
kdissert – http://freehackers.org/~tnagy/kdissert/
umbrello – http://uml.sf.net/
cervisia – http://www.kde.org/apps/cervisia/
kmymoney – http://kmymoney2.sourceforge.net/
gnome:
beagle – http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=641
NVU is cool, gtk, etc.
eclipse – http://www.eclipse.org/ ( not really GNOME, but.. )
muine – http://muine.gooeylinux.org/
beast – http://beast.gtk.org/
wired – http://bloodshed.net/wired
gtkpod – http://www.gtkpod.org/
Both browsers are running on the same machine (Ubuntu Breezy Badger). Both have two tabs with the same websites open (/. and google).
Epiphiany is using 88.2MiB
Firefox is using 91.5MiB
The difference isn’t enough for me to care much but it seems like Epiphiany uses less resources.
/Prefers Mozilla
My biggest problem with Firefox is how sluggish it feels on older hardware, that’s the reason I switched to Epiphany on my duron 1ghz Ubuntu box.
In my opinion it shouldn’t need to take a second just to open a menu item.
And I also think it has nothing to do with XUL or GTK, the problem is that it uses XUL AND GTK to render the widgets.
It doesn’t really feel like a problem on nowadays hardware, but it does on mine.
How can I use the right mouse button for Epiphany gestures? Now epiphany uses the middle mouse button and that isn’t what I want.
How can I change this?
Is this comparison out of date? Epiphany seems a bit slower than Firefox (maybe because it’s based on a Mozilla 1.6 engine?), which in turn is slower than Mozilla 1.8. Except for script speed, they are all slower than Konqueror.
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/browserSpeed.html#linspeed
Depends on the version of epiphany, I would expect most versions to be built against 1.7, just like firefox is (deer park uses 1.8)
It would be nice if more attention was paid to gtkwebcore that nokia released so gnome could have a nice fast 100% native browser like konqueror.
Does anyone know how to make epiphany open tabs by a single click? NOT middle click.