“An Intel-based iBook has been widely trailed to be unveiled next week. If you’re anticipating speeds and feeds ahead of next week’s keynote, we’ll have to disappoint you. But sources close to Apple suggest that the many in the rumor mill have failed to illuminate the bigger picture – a strategy to makeover the iBook as a cut-price bait to lure switchers, with price points much lower than Apple has ever risked for a portable machine. In many ways, the strategy is risky, but with rival PC notebook laptop prices in freefall – Dell today offers a $499 [EUR 410] notebook – Apple may not have any choice but to embrace it.”
I am really excited about this, and would really love to get both a Mini and a new iBook in the next few months, just to get the speed gains.
Anyone want to buy an ibook??
how much for the ibook?
Email me: adam at osnews.com
You should be getting an e-mail from jaybo[at]openvms-rocks[dot]com
As long as the quality is preserved it can only be described as a good thing. I think Intel will charge lower prices to Apple than IBM did, which means that Apple might lower the price without sacrificing quality.
That’s awesome. Seeing as how I bought my iBook just 3 months ago, I could still net a lot of cash for it on eBay (high resell value and all), and get a new one … AND have money left over.
But I love my wittle iBook.
Er, yeah if you really think you can sell your iBookl, buy a new one and somehow make a profit, go ahead…
If I sold this for $1000 CAD (it’s got 1 GB of RAM), and Apple was selling their new ones for $900 CAD, I would manage that, yes.
Apple did very good with the Mac mini, it’s the best seller. So if they can give us a nice low cost iBook, it’s going to be a winner too.
Finaly, apple is selling good stuff for less $$.
The power of OS X without the need of a loan.
Finally?
Iapple’s been seeling computer gear for less money than the competition for a long time now.
It’s still really early for intel support. Apple’s Rosetta had better be at top form in order to release an intel machine now. All commercial software is still PPC! If the user buys MSOffice for a new macintel iBook, performance might be impacted.
PSTTTT…… the new Office will be a universal binary.
why do you think that Apple announced the intel switch at WWDC a full year before they were going to have any?
The new office isn’t out yet. So I hope MBU come up with an intel version of office at macWorld
But I am going to go for it, I think we will replace every PC we have in our family over the next year or so with intel Apples.
If they release an ibook and a mini, I will buy them the day after they ship.
I am going to dump all micro-swisscheesesecurity-soft as fast as I can for everyone in our family we can including the grandparents.
I love Linux, and I don’t see myself switching my main desktop to any other OS soon. But I admit that Apple laptops are very attractive and may get myself one within a year.
I may switch my parents to apple as well; and having apple laptop helps me being their support guy.
Frankly, a cheap iBook would mean cheap parts. Will Apple ship an iBook with a Celeron M processor; with less RAM than their current base model; with a 90 day warranty?
I feel like everyone is thinking that any Intel/Apple stuff coming next week is going to be Yonah based which might leave room for a small price cut on one of Intel’s solo units, but it couldn’t be anything drastic. In order for Apple to sell a unit at that low a price, they’d have to strip out more than they’re willing to.
Moving to Intel processors will bring Apple’s prices to a competitive point with the rest of the industry simply because comparisons can be made. Frankly, their prices might be competitive right now, but I can’t tell because one huge-ticket item (the processor) can’t be accurately compared. That said, I think that Apple will simply forgo the low-end 256MB RAM, Celeron M powered, 90 day warrantied machines. They want to sell a better experience – plus, Mac OS X (like Windows Vista or XGL/Composite) is going to need more RAM and better graphics capabilities because the display engine is simply more advanced.
Actually. They need less RAM because the display engine is so advanced. They need more VRAM though.
In Quartz 2d extreme applications are rendered and stored in vram. In, say Windows XP, they’re rendered and stored in RAM.
Quartz 2D extreme is not enabled by default in Tiger and requires a proper graphics card. (i.e. nothing that would fit in a laptop)
>(i.e. nothing that would fit in a laptop)
You are wrong. The requirement of Quartz 2D extreme is the same as Core image, the following:
“ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
ATI Radeon 9550, 9650, 9600, 9600 XT, 9800 XT, X800 XT
nVidia GeForce FX Go 5200
nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL, 6800 GT DDL”
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/coreimage/
So the last iBook and all alu powerbook can run quartz 2D extreme.
An old Ars Technica article talked about Q2DE and how it works deep down inside. Because it uses a relatively large amount of VRAM, it’s not recommended to use it with anything less than 64 MB. In fact, if you want to enable it on iBooks/Powerbooks with supported video cards but only 32 MB of RAM, you have to edit some plist file.
This is from apple.com site : “Quartz Extreme functionality is supported by the following video GPUs: NVIDIA GeForce2 MX and later, or any AGP-based ATI RADEON GPU. A minimum of 16MB VRAM is required.”. G3 iBooks (<=600MHz) didn’t have 16MB of vram, so they upgraded them to Radeon 7500 with 32MB of vram.
Heh, I stand corrected. I guess Ars Technica should check their facts.
Don’t confuse Quartz Extreme with Quartz 2D Extreme. More importantly, Q2D Extreme is still not on in 10.4.3.
I don’t confuse them. Until the 10.4.2, Quartz 2D extreme was present in Tiger but disable by default. I test it on my powerbook 15″.
Now since 10.4.3, Apple has removed it.
The iBook will never be targeted for the sub $500 laptop market. Apple has made this clear in their 10-Q statements regarding margins and areas of the market they freely admit they don’t want.
The $500 laptop will disappear when Vista arrives. The video requirements for the Operating System will force Dell to raise the price points.
OS X already has those requirements.
The video requirements for the Operating System will force Dell to raise the price points.
I’m sure Dell will just hate that.
>”Moving to Intel processors will bring Apple’s prices to a competitive point with the rest of the industry”
Maybe for their laptops if only because they’ve been out of sync price wise because of the G4, but Apple’s other lineup has actually been much lower priced than the competition for quite a while.
Maybe for their laptops if only because they’ve been out of sync price wise because of the G4, but Apple’s other lineup has actually been much lower priced than the competition for quite a while.
Correct. Apple does have much lower prices than its competition- no one will sell you an OSX machine for less.
And sometimes they even compete with the Dells of the world if you want exactly what they sell.
Potential Apple Customer: “I need a cheap desktop Mac.”
Apple: “We offer the $499 Macmini- the fastest small desktop computer on the earth.”
PAC: “Yeah thats great, but I don’t need the smallness. Can I buy a larger computer with a CPU not from 2002 in the same price range?”
Apple: “Sorry. We only offer the $499 Macmini- the fastest small desktop computer on the earth.”
PAC: “So that means I can’t trade in the smallness for say….a modern CPU or a graphics card that does not suck? All the other computer makers sell $500 computers with way better specs.”
Apple: “”Sorry. We only offer the $499 Macmini- the fastest small desktop computer on the earth.”
PAC: “Well….”
And the Pentium 4 hasn’t been around for awhile? Isn’t the Pentium M based on the Pentium III, which came out in 1999? Does everyone need a graphics card that has more than 64mb of VRAM? Who buys the Mac minis, the average desktop users or the gamers? Does Windows XP make more efficient use of its hardware than OS X?
>>PAC: “So that means I can’t trade in the smallness for say….a modern CPU or a graphics card that does not suck? All the other computer makers sell $500 computers with way better specs.”
What other sub-$500 computers have DVI, Firewire, USB 2.0, combo DVD-ROM & CDRW, 512MB ram AND a separate 32MB graphics card?
Most PCs in the sub-$500 category either have a DVD ROM or a CDRW, not both, and certainly not in the same drive. They don’t have Firewire at all, and they don’t have DVI graphics. Instead you get an integrated VGA graphics card with 32 MB shared RAM. I’m sure you’ll enjoy running Vista on that. The computers you’re talking about are also the size of a beer cooler.
And where in Apple’s marketing do you find them calling the Mac mini the fastest desktop on earth?
I will replace my current 12″ powerbook and dual 2Ghz G5 powermac when and if I see a easily maintained triple-boot system between OSX/Vista/”Some Linux Distro”.
Have done it with Gentoo but it was too much like hard-work so trashed it after a while.
Otherwise they will do just fine thankyou.
For Linux, try Ubuntu.
A couple years ago I would have never guessed it, Apple entering the budget market. Apple has historically tried to get a lot of return so they could make their money without doing massive sales volume, with apple entering the budget arena they will most likely have to sell a lot more units to make the same profit and honestly, I think they can do it.
If they offer a $700 ibook with an svideo out, I’ll buy one just to play with it. Anything above that price point I can’t justify spending for a toy.
>”Apple has historically tried to get a lot of return so they could make their money without doing massive sales volume”
While true, that statement is misleading as it suggests that Apple sold their products for more. They simply require that you buy more thus allowing them to make you pay the same (actually slightly less) than a PC of the same specs.
>”Anything above that price point I can’t justify spending for a toy.”
Perhaps you ought to use it for real productivity then.
“They simply require that you buy more thus allowing them to make you pay the same (actually slightly less) than a PC of the same specs.”
Please, please stop it. Sounding like a broken record. Or rather, a broken record with a new label. Its totally obsessive.
Curious why you say it to me, but not those who keep implying that Apple sells its gear for more money than the competition.
“Curious why you say it to me, but not those who keep implying that Apple sells its gear for more money than the competition.”
I don’t think you believe it yourself. I don’t think you expect to convince anyone by saying it over and over again. The point is the saying. You’ve got locked into a very self destructive and twisted way of behaving on this site, you really need to look at what you’re doing here, and put your energies into something else that is your own, instead of trying to mess up something that will never be yours.
Believe it or not, this is well meant, good advice.
Follow it, and it could be the day you look back on later and say, this is when I really got out of something terrible that I had not even realised I was in. Yes, you can do it. All it takes is to do it.
They simply require that you buy more thus allowing them to make you pay the same (actually slightly less) than a PC of the same specs.
Cognitive dissonance aside, repeating it over and over again won’t make it any more true.
Well, the Dell looks cheap at $500. Then up the RAM to 512MB, add Windows XP Professional, a 1-year warranty, and a Pentium M processor and it skyrockets to $900 – and it still only has integrated graphics, a case that doesn’t match Apple’s, and no free RAM slot. Plus, realistically, with Windows you’re going to need AntiVirus software which would bring it up to $980 (for 15 months of virus protection). Plus, the Apple unit comes with lots of free software like iCal, iPhoto, Quicken, iMovie, iDVD, and GarageBand. Of course, if you don’t need that software, the fact that Apple’s included it is meaningless to you, but it’s a little clear that Dell’s unit costs a lot more unless you want a stripped unit. Will Apple sell a stripped unit? Maybe, but probably not. Apple doesn’t want to sell crap even if it allows them to put a cheaper tag on the box.
Correct me if I’m wrong but iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and Garageband is part of the iLife suit which Apple started charging for.
iLife comes free with a new computer.
yeah, they are ilife programs, but they come preinstalled on newly purchased computers. The bite is that you have to buy them new if you upgrade your os from lets say panther to tiger.
Um, no, there are just like any other programs. Upgrade the OS and they should work just fine.
It’s only if you want to have the latest version of iLife that you need to pay to upgrade.
Not true, you could have tiger with the old iLife 04…
There two options, you could install panther & ilife 04 first, and later do an upgrade to tiger (easy) or you could do a fresh installation of tiger and later find the .pkg of ilife in the restore cds/dvd of panther included with your system (less easy)…
I just had a few comments on some things that I frequently see on these sorts of forums. Mainly, It is the XP Home versus XP Pro upgrade as well as the Celeron versus Pentium M issue – especially sounded out by Apple people.
First with XP Home versus Pro – It is not necessary for your average home user or student to upgrade to Pro. I have my parents, both of my siblings and my girlfriend running the Home that came with their PCs and I run Pro as I need to be able to join a domain at work and use the other added functionality. The three feature differences are as follows – XP Home cannot join a domain, XP Home cannot have password-protected SMB shares, XP Home cannot have finely grained file permissions. With XP Home it is either a other users can see my home dir or they can’t sort of permissions system. These differences should not affect your average home user too much because when you figure in a hardware firewall/router the outside world cannot connect to their shares, if they have any, anyway.
Second the Celeron versus Pentium M issue – The Celeron is the last generation Pentium M with a smaller cache (1MB versus 2MB) plus some of the power conserving features disabled. The cheap $499 dell comes with a 1.4Ghz processor running with a 400MHz bus which is faster than the G4 that Apple ships in their high-end PowerBooks. They still give you 3-4 hours of battery life under normal use without the power-saving features.
As to your concerns about the warranty and software – it costs $100 to upgrade to a superior warranty than what Apple offers which is 1 year of onsite service. It also costs less than Applecare to upgrade that to 3 years of that onsite service. The software that a user needs for spyware and virus protection have pretty good free alternatives – Microsoft Antispyware and AVP Anti-Virus do a pretty good job for free. I put my siblings and girlfriend on Firefox and enabled the SP2 firewall in addition to the router and they have yet to encounter any spyware or virus issues. Not to mention that the $499 Dell comes with a nice 15.4″ widescreen display which is superier by far to what comes with the 14″ iBook (1280×800 resolution). Finally, another stick of 256MB for ram is $30 from newegg.com and anybody can take off the little panel at the bottom and pop that in. XP is also not quite the hog that OSX is in the memory department and runs great with 512 while I had to upgrade my PowerBook to 768 to stop the disk thrashing.
All I am saying is that I frequently read the sort of things that you say here – that the Dell needs $500 in upgrades to be useful – and it is false. You need to understand the competition and market and price realities a bit better. I am not an Apple-hater eitther – I have a 12″ PowerBook and I really do like it and OSX. I would love to see Apple offer a $699-$749 iBook and I think that they both can and should do it. That doesn’t mean they can’t offer a higher-end dualcore Yonah model with a higher margin to subsidize it a bit either.
>”All I am saying is that I frequently read the sort of things that you say here – that the Dell needs $500 in upgrades to be useful – and it is false.”
Its not that people are saying that the Dell needs those upgrades to be useful… but that it needs those upgrades to be a fair comparison with the equivilent Mac.
“I just had a few comments on some things that I frequently see on these sorts of forums. Mainly, It is the XP Home versus XP Pro upgrade as well as the Celeron versus Pentium M issue – especially sounded out by Apple people.”
A couple of points you missed or possibly figured were not relevant:
1. XP Pro does SMP while the home version does not. (And this is definitely a non issue for most home users). Personally, I prefer either multi processor or multi core, and these days preferably both. 🙂
2. From what I have read the Pentium M in reality is built on a heavily modified Pentium III core.
In any event, I think the most expensive upgrade to the Dell would have to be in the software department to bring it into alignment with the Apple. The iLife suite is still coming with the iBook according to Apples site and to get the same functionality with the Dell would require a fairly Hefty investment. If you already have all the software you need then the point is moot. Unless of course you plan on using your existing software on two or more machines at home. 🙂 Then you still would have to figure in the software cost if you wanted to be legal about it.
Bill
Bill,
I did forget the mutiple core/CPU angle of the Home vs. Pro. You are right – if you are going to have a PC with multiple cores at this point you would want Pro and that might be more of an issue with the upcoming Yonah notebooks. I do not have any multiple CPU boxes and so I forgot about that difference. I would imagine those machines would come with Pro by default from Dell when availible, though, so you would not need to pay to upgrade.
You are right about iLife and if the person would use all of the components of that then that is a good investment. However, if all they are using is iTunes and iPhoto then iTunes has a Windows and Google’s Picasa ( http://picasa.google.com/index.html ) is a very good iPhoto equiviant and both are free.
Also, I was just reading Thurrot’s view on the newly bundled applications coming for Vista and they are a much closer match compared with iLife ( http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5270_02.asp ) So microsoft realizes they have a problem there and are addressing it.
It will definetly be an interesting year or two in the PC industry as Apple moves to Intel and Microsoft moves to Vista…
I did forget the mutiple core/CPU angle of the Home vs. Pro. You are right – if you are going to have a PC with multiple cores at this point you would want Pro and that might be more of an issue with the upcoming Yonah notebooks. I do not have any multiple CPU boxes and so I forgot about that difference. I would imagine those machines would come with Pro by default from Dell when availible, though, so you would not need to pay to upgrade.
This is not true. Home supports any number of cores as long as they’re on one physical CPU. Yonah is no reason for Dell to default to Pro.
Some points I’d bring up:
1) I agree that no one should have to upgrade from Home to XP Pro in order to make their laptop equivalent to an iBook.
2) Do you mean AVG antivirus? I googled “AVP” and didn’t find anything on a free anti-virus program.
3) From the Dell 15.4” laptop screens I’ve seen and used, I’d have to say they rate average at best. On the otherhand, Mac laptop screens are of a much higher quality. I definately wouldn’t say that the Dell screen is “superior by far” and as such, I don’t know what you were looking at when you made the comparison between the two. Even though the 15.4” Dell screen is larger than the 14” in the iBook, some might go with quality over screen area. Also, please consider that Apple has a much nicer dead pixel policy than Dell does.
4) AVG for antivirus and Microsoft Antispyware (along with Lavasoft Ad-aware and Spybot Search & Destroy) for antispyware are good free alternatives to the pay versions, but with a Mac, you don’t have to worry about any of those problems, so you don’t need utilities like those installed and you don’t have to take up time running those utilities. I think that’s a pretty nice advantage that makes the point about the existence of free antivirus/antispyware programs for the PC kind of moot.
5) I’m sorry to hear about the disk thrashing on your powerbook. I have a Mac Mini with a 1.5ghz G4 processor and 512mb of RAM and it can still play movies with only 5 mb of RAM left (as reported by the System Profiler) on Tiger. Even though Tiger likes a lot of memory, it seems to use it efficiently and therefore I wouldn’t say that my system ever grinds to a halt on a regular basis. I’d say that XP on the other hand is much more of a memory hog with even more slowdowns on a frequent basis, and if you’re only using 256mb, then you’ll be getting a lot of those slowdowns. You’d have to disable those unnecessary services that are activated by default (like the wireless configurator even if you don’t have a wireless card) before you can even start to compare XP’s memory efficiency to that of Tiger.
6) In the end, Dell’s laptop is certainly cheaper than Apple’s lowest-costing solution, but you certainly have to add hardware and software to the former to make it approach equivalency of the latter. Besides that, there is more maintainence involved with a Windows machine to keep it running right. Some people don’t want to spend the time to run spyware programs and let antivirus programs run. And some people don’t have friends or family like you to install that extra software and hardware and show them how to use it. These are the kinds of people I think would be happier using a Mac, even though it would cost more money.
BTW, I also use a PC, too, if that matters.
First with XP Home versus Pro – It is not necessary for your average home user or student to upgrade to Pro.
Actually, it is, at least at my school. XP Home is banned from the network for the stated reason:
“Windows XP Home is banned because Microsoft indicates that it is designed for a Home network typically consisting of 2-5 networked computers (not 5,000+ like UNCG’s). XP Home does not have the Pro features of data and network security. If the necessity arises for an XP Home computer to join a domain or Active Directory, it cannot, by Microsoft’s design.”
http://hrl.uncg.edu/resnet/faq/specifications.html
but…
Apple’s low end stuff is…low end. I tried to switch to an eMac last year, but it was too slow. After 6 months I traded it even up for a Dell Optiplex with the same features but with a 3 Gig P4 and 128 Megs of video RAM. Much happier.
I might try the switch again someday…when I can afford better hardware. I’ll wait and see what the Power Macs price at.
Off topic: is the “power” tied to PPC? Will Apple have to rename the Power Books and Power Macs?
edit: I mention the eMac because it was more powerful than the Mini and the iBook at the time of purchase, so I believe it to be representative of Apple’s low end product line.
Edited 2006-01-07 20:27
jtrapp: Yeah to some degree. I don’t know that Power is really taken directly from there, but that’s what it stands for if I’m not mistaken so I don’t know that they’ll strip the name.
At any rate, the writing makes a good point. Yes, Apple provides a great product by far. Nobody can deny that entirely (some mileage may vary obviously). What it comes down to is that you can go online, and look at two different price tags. The majority of people don’t know what exactly should be changed or not. They know the name Dell by word-of-mouth, and they see $500, so they’ve made the sale. They know Apple, but more than likely for an iPod. Even if they knew they made other devices, the cheapest iBook is $1000. Half price “can’t be beat,” is what it seems like is the choice in the end.
Maybe what should happen is something similar to the Mini. Develop a cheap, and yes, somewhat lower-end notebook which can compete with places like Dell. This might help drag in users to make Apple known for more than iPod’s to the iPod users. Hey, maybe include a deal with an iPod in it honestly. It would a good way to stimulate thought. Anything with an iPod must work well. Then again, this doesn’t seem like Apple’s strategy. In the end, I’m just excited to see what they’ll be presenting for us this year. I hope to buy a notebook of my own sometime in the somewhat near future.
Apple’s low end stuff is…low end. I tried to switch to an eMac last year, but it was too slow. After 6 months I traded it even up for a Dell with the same features but with a 3 Gig P4 and 128 Megs of video RAM. Much happier.
What are you firstly using your computer for? you’ve purchased an eMac loaded with a pretty basic kit, don’t you think that *MAYBE* you underestimated what you use your computer for?
Couple that with the fact that you failed to actually say WHAT version of the eMac you purchased – the above statement is as stupid as me saying, ‘I bought a Dell computer and it sucked’ – well, what bloody model?! Dell sells MANY models of varying support packages, software packages and hardware deals.
eMacs, by and large are a damn good machine, and having flogged on to death for 2 years, running a variety of high end software, many different things hooked up to it, I’ve found it to be a pretty damn good kit for most peoples requirements; its no worse than the middle of the road kits that Dell sell.
Oh, and btw, Optiplex, please, thats a business desktop, something I would hardly recommend for Joe average – its great if you have a fleet of 1000 desktops, useless for anything else.
If it’s cheap and made good like the Mac mini, I will buy it.
Look for major app for Intel Macs tomorrow.
I sorta disagree with the article, because Apple has always followed it’s own business model which flys in the face of anyone elses and Apple continues to make great products that sell not only to a niche market, but to a mass market too.
Edited 2006-01-07 20:56
iBook is currently the cheapest laptop I consider worth paying for… Now, that won’t last too much longer at $1K.
I really hope they don’t destroy the ibook by making it cheap unless they drop the price on the powerbooks…
Apple is in a unique position as a pc vendor because it receives revenue from:
1) OS X
2) iLife
3) iWork
4) iTMS
5) iPods
6) WiFi accessories (Apple is second place only to Cisco)
7) Consumer apps (Final Cut Express, etc…)
8) Professional apps (Final Cut Pro, etc…)
9) 3rd party product sales at retail outlets
10) AppleCare/Service/Upgrades
11) Misc (Mighty Mouse, iSight, etc…)
12) .Mac
Now other pc vendors may be receiving revenue from similar products and services, but not all, and in many cases not as substantially. Also, the above items are all high-margin (with the exception perhaps of retail sales).
With the above revenue in mind, Apple could sell Macs below cost and still earn a profit on each person.
Of course Apple hasn’t been doing that historically, instead they’ve been targeting a niche with products that command the highest margins in the industry.
However, looking to what Apple has built out already, and the direction in which they’re heading with Mac sales accounting for less of a percentage of revenue as well as a lower margin on a per-customer basis, Apple will start to focus more on increasing Mac sales to increase sales of the other products and services.
This will be done by lowering the price of their Macs.
Apple is in a great position to compete on price. Apple has high enough volume to get the discounts seen by other top pc vendors in terms of hardware components. In this regard, they’re on equal footing in terms of competitiveness with the top-ten pc vendors.
However, the other pc vendors have to pay a licensing fee for Microsoft Windows and all bundled applications.
When a pc used to sell for $3,000 or so, it wasn’t a big deal to pay $100 or more for the OS and bundled software. Now, when PCs are selling for under $500, the idea of a vendor paying $100 or more for the OS and bundled software is rather painful.
The floor price at which PCs can be sold for while still making a profit to the vendor is determined by:
ComponentPrices + Manufacturing+ R&D + OSLicensing + SoftwareLicensing + Marketing + Distribution + RetailMarkup + Misc = Cost
Now besides the fact that the variables OSLicensing and SoftwareLicensing are not in the Apple equation, and Marketing is given to Apple via free and extensive media coverage, Apple’s formula would look more like this:
(ComponentPrices + Manufacturing+ R&D + Marketing + Distribution + RetailMarkup + Misc) – Sum(AdditionalProfits) = Cost
Now, I don’t expect to see Apple become the low cost leader in pc sales, but I do see Apple increasing its lead as the value leader as it will lower prices to be closer to competitors while still commanding higher margins.
–MacSlut
>”Of course Apple hasn’t been doing that historically, instead they’ve been targeting a niche with products that command the highest margins in the industry. ”
They’re the highest margins because they bundle so much more… thus requiring you to pay more. (They give you fewer options to buy less and spend less.) However, their gear IS less money if you match up a PC with the same specs.
>”Now, I don’t expect to see Apple become the low cost leader in pc sales”
Well, they actually already are. They just don’t sell computers at certain low ends as other PC makers. The computers that they do sell however ARE lower priced.
>”I do see Apple increasing its lead as the value leader as it will lower prices to be closer to competitors while still commanding higher margins.”
Apple already is the value leader. The primary difference that the Intel transition will make is that people will be able to make more direct comparisons. They will will stop discounting the fact that Apple is giving you more for your money. So really, all that will change is people’s perceptions because the prices are already lower.
They’re the highest margins because they bundle so much more… thus requiring you to pay more. (They give you fewer options to buy less and spend less.) However, their gear IS less money if you match up a PC with the same specs.
So the argument goes like this:
Macs cost a certain amount more than PCs of nearly the same specs because they bundle in things (such as OSX and iwhatever programs and better hardware?) which means you have to pay more.
BUT if you compare a regular computer bundled with all this stuff to the price of an Mac (which is impossible because only Apple sells computers with iwhatever programs and OSX….even though those OSX86 hacks exist now so I guess not) the Mac is cheaper.
Is that it? It kinda makes sense….I mean if I had to rationalize Apple’s higher prices on computers of nearly the same specs thats how I would do it too I guess.
But it makes me wonder- why the obsession with showing what a value Macs are? Is it a bad thing that they are upperclass systems for upperclass budgets? Someone has to be the BMW of the computer industry.
The argument is useless unless its specific. The form of the argument has to go like this:
Apple configured like so, X dollars
PC configured like so, y dollars
Difference Z dollars, for which you get…(eg iLife).
Then, give a few examples – high low and medium end of the market.
Now, in one of his many atavars or pseudonyms, the poster did try a couple months ago to give a long list of what extra Apple was selling you for the extra hundreds or sometimes thousands, and Rayiner shot it down in flames. And he didn’t even make the devastating logical point that if this is the reason for the higher price, why does the premium in dollars rise with the price of the hardware? Are we really saying that iLife with a Mini is a compulsory $100 purchase, but with a PowerMac its a compulsory $700 purchase, when its the same software?
Its fundamentally dishonest, is the problem one has. Its a bit like saying that Mont Blanc pens are not more expensive than Brand X, they just make you buy more. Then it turns out that the more is bits of tinfoil and packaging and a tiny bottle of ink. And the price difference is a hundred dollars.
The fact is, Apple costs more. No, it doesn’t include more, or not enough to affect the point. But, this has nothing to do with whether people should buy it or not. Do whatever you want with your money, just stop going around telling people black is white.
Your last point – agreed! Why do people have this strange compulsion to argue that Apple doesn’t cost more? People who buy branded polo shirts, or pens, or cars, or stereos don’t seem to feel this compulsion. For goodness sake, just enjoy what you’ve bought, and stop worrying!
They should get the damn intel crap out already so I can pirate the shit out of Apple. I mean that’s the reason they moved to intel after all, right…
One nice thing about this machine would be that it’s a way to buy a laptop without having to pay the “Microsoft tax”. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been forced buy Windows even though I don’t use it (I prefer Linux). Of course, in the past I could have bought a Mac and run the PPC version of Linux on it, but the number of PPC distros is limited.
Now, I am assuming that any standard i386 Linux distro will run on these new Intel-based Macs – does anyone happen to know if this is the case? I’d be pretty disappointed if it wasn’t.
Woah… somebody modded a bunch of posts up… My score went up to 3… and now 5 minutes later im in the low 2s. What happened admins?
Edited 2006-01-08 00:43
Look, you have your own site.
Can’t you just leave these guys alone and move on? Its obsessive and destructive, and it is not doing your cause any good.
In fact, having your own site and doing it is moving into very dangerous territory. Time to stop, in your own best interests.
I would have no problems paying $1299 for a 14″ iBook whether it is the current model or an Intel Mac. Compare my 14″ iBook (Nov. 2003) to the current 14″ iBooks:
Price – $1299 vs. $1299
CPU speed – 933MHz vs. 1.43GHz
Level 2 cache – 256K at 933MHz vs. 512 at 1.43GHz
System BUS – 133MHz vs. 142MHz
RAM – 256MB (266MHz) max 640MB vs. 512MB (333MHz) max 1.5GB
Drive – DVD-ROM/CD-RW vs. SuperDrive
Graphics – Radeon 9200 vs. Radeon 9550
Storage – 40GB (60GB BTO) vs. 60GB (80GB/100GB BTO) with sudden motion sensor
Comm – Airport Extreme ready, no bluetooth vs. built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0+
Trackpad – not scrolling vs. scrolling
As you can see Apple has provided more/better features for the same price so I do not see them slashing prices just because other companies sell their computers at basement prices; however, I can see them lowering the price by $100.
>While true, that statement is misleading as it suggests that Apple sold their products for more. They simply require that you buy more thus allowing them to make you pay the same (actually slightly less) than a PC of the same specs. <
I did not intend it to mean that Apple sells it’s
products for more, simply that when selling mid to high end products the profit margins are generally higher (for any company) then on low end products, profits on low end products generally come from moving a large volume of product.
>Perhaps you ought to use it for real productivity then.<
As far as the using it for productivity, that remains to be seen, if I wanted a machine for productivity I would get a powermac, not an ibook.
I would buy the ibook to see if i want a powermac for production or if I want to stick with my linux powered pc.
This is a stupid argument. The “they make you buy more and get more” thing is numerically unjustifiable and really quite pointless. It’s widely known that Apple’s profit margins on its Macs are 20%+. A study found that the cost of a $500 Mac Mini was (before marketing and distribution) $283, meaning a gross margin of roughly 44%. In comparison, Dell and HP’s margins are on the order of 10% or less.
Now, you can argue up and down about relative value and all that, but if we look at concrete things like “how much did your new Mac cost Apple to make” the facts are quite clear.
And Dell/HP do NOT R&D on the operating system side – there is cross subsidising in Apple, the profits made by the hardware is then pollinated accross to the MacOS X development, and thus allows them to develop and OS and sell it at a lower price to a small community than Microsoft.
Btw, if you want to moan about something, why don’t you bitch to Microsoft about their 85% profit margins on Windows and Office? Why not start bitching and demanding that they ‘lower their price to something that is socially acceptable?”
Its the free market baby, if you don’t like it, take your $5 elsewhere and assemble your own computer using the elcheapo parts you found at your local garage sale.
Hey, I never said Apple should lower its prices. I do think some of their machines are overpriced (PowerMac, PowerBook!), but that’s not what I said in my comment. The original poster claimed that Apple machines cost more because they made you buy more. In truth, they cost more because Apple makes more money on each one. I’m not going to argue about whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, or whether its worth it or not, its simply the truth of the situation.
The problem is, that what you say is not true..
The 283$ price of the mac mini only takes in account the sum of the prices of components and chips from third parties, to that price, you have to add the cost of the design of the motherboard by Apple, the aluminium case, the assembling by asian partners, shipping…
Actually, the real profit margin of the mac mini is around 18-19%..
If what you say is true, how can you explain that Aopen sell their mac mini clone for 1200$+ with similar specs? They have a 100%+ profit margin?
And, not, the PowerMac isn’t overpriced…
A PowerMac G5 Quad (2x Dual Core 2,5Ghz), 8Gb of RAM DDR2, 250Gb HD, DVD-RWDL, Quadro FX 4500 512Mb costs 6449$ without discounts, (you could get one for 5834$ with education discount)..
VS.
A BOXX Tech (One of the most cheaper brands in workstations) model 7400 with two Dual Core Opterons 280 at 2,4Ghz, 8Gb of RAM DDR400, 250Gb HD, DVD-RWDL, Quadro FX 4500 512Mb costs 10309$…
Same specs and nearly 2x the price.. Now I say, i could get a mac for half the price!
Even Infoworld says that the PowerMac is the best workstation:
http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/01/02/01FEtoyawards_1.html
The PowerBook, is another world, because of the G4, we can’t have pci-express, but this will change in 2 days.. Can’t you wait until 10 of january?
Here we go again with the same crap. Probably from the same person. Take a look at the following, clipped from Evesham and Macwarehouse in the UK.
Apple Power Mac G5 Dual – Tower – 1 x PPC G5 2.3 GHz – RAM 512 MB –
HD 1 x 250 GB –
DVD±RW (+R double layer) –
LAN EN, Fast EN, Gigabit EN –
MacOS X 10.4 –
Monitor : none
119 in 2–3 days £1,479.00
Axis KD Plus (Jan06)
AXISKDPLUSJAN06
Microsoft® Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
AMD Athlon 64 X2 processor 3800+
512MB dual channel DDR RAM (PC3200) 400MHz
200GB Serial ATA hard drive with 8MB buffer
256MB NVIDIA GeForce 6200
17″ Viewsonic VX715 (TFT) DVI monitor
From £765.11
[edit – it does have a DVD writer, like all the Evesham offerings, it just doesn’t bother listing it, I guess for the same reason they don’t list the floppy…]
Evesham is a well respected quality/value/performance mail order vendor in the UK. It is not Dell. MacW is a standard mail order vendor for Macs. Both prices exclude VAT.
Please, just stop staring at a piece of black paper and saying its white.
Of course, everyone is fully entitled to spend their money how they want. There is no reason at all why people should not spend their money on Macs, and thoroughly enjoy them, and find them superb value for money. Please do. That’s not the issue. Just don’t tell the rest of us that they are cheaper. They are not!
You want to know why AOpen is priced so highly. Good question. I think they may be figuring the market will accept a premium over the Mini because it is not a Mac!. Doubt if it will fly, but they must have some reason for thinking it, and it will be interesting to see if they are right. But if you look at the MacWarehouse site and compare the Mini to their Intel offerings, you find you get better performance for two thirds of the price. You lose the unique form factor.
Edited 2006-01-09 09:06
There is at least one more difference between Win XP Home & Pro which is related to disk management. I believe XP Pro allows for the conversion from ‘basic’ disk to ‘dynamic’ disk. This allows software raid options such as striping & mirroring to be used. Multiple drives can be mirrored providing an excellent backup solution right out of the box. This is not an option with XP Home.
Greta,
You’ve read way to much into my post and turned it into a debate about Apple’s price/value today as compared to other computers.
My original post makes no mention or implication that Macs are higher or lower priced today compared to similarly spec’d PCs.
That being said…
“They’re the highest margins because they bundle so much more… thus requiring you to pay more. ”
Yes, that’s included in the premise of my post.
Re: Apple as low cost leader:
“Well, they actually already are. They just don’t sell computers at certain low ends as other PC makers. The computers that they do sell however ARE lower priced. ”
You just said that they require you to pay more. Personally, I do think Macs are worth every penny and more, but be that as it may, and as a different topic aside from *value*, I don’t think you’d find many who’d say the primary reason why they bought a Mac was because it was cheaper than an equivalently spec’d PC. That is what is meant to be the low cost leader. To do so, Apple would have to sell crappy Macs for under $300 just like the crappy PC vendors do.
“Apple already is the value leader. ”
What part of ‘I do see Apple *increasing* its lead as the value leader…’ did you not understand?
When I bought my first laptop last year, I really wanted to buy the iBook. However, since I also enjoy using Linux and was planning on using wlan, I just couldn’t choose the iBook because of their choice of wireless network card (Broadcom). Now that they’re moving over to the Intel platform, that problem is no more. So maybe my next laptop will be an iBook.
I own both Macs and PC’s.
Both are great machines. I have a Dell Inspiron 5100 Laptop for two years now, that I’m VERY happy with.
It came with Windows XP Home. I upgraded it with a 512mb RAM upgrade and an 80gb HDD.
It’s a reliable computer.
I own SEVERAL Apple Notebooks, starting with a PowerBook 1400CS, Wallstreet G3 233, Wallstreet G3 266, Pismo G3 400mhz and an iBook G3 600mhz unit, and TONS of Beige, B&W, G4 AGP, and a Mac Mini 1.42ghz G4.
I service Macs and PC’s everyday.
I like BOTH OS’es. And I use each for different purposes. I prefer Windows XP (only slightly) because I like the Keyboard Editing Commands that I can use on a PC better than those in the Mac.
But, that’s about the only reason I prefer a PC to a Mac. I like using the Home and End keys to navigate in text when I’m editing posts.
There might be a fix for this on the Mac. I’ve never looked.
I’m currently running the Developer Release of MacOS X Intel on one of the $199 specials. Not using it much. But it was a fun project for a Saturday afternoon.
Once the new Intel Minis come out, I’ll probably buy one of those and a new Intel PowerBook and wipe this machine and make it a PVR or something (Celeron D 2.94ghz, 80gb SATA, 512mb RAM, DVD Drive, ASROCK 915GL Logicboad).
Personally, I’m MUCH more interested in Haiku, ReactOS, Syllable, SkyOS, AROS, and other fun Open Source OSes. They are where the FUN is going to come from in the next year…
Apple makes good stuff, Dell makes good stuff (just bought a Dell for my Niece, and she LOVES it!).
You can’t build yourself up by tearing others down… so instead of constantly insulting the other platform with put-downs, I’d be interested to hear what you LIKE about MacOS X or Windows XP that people don’t know about.
What makes each platform more usable or functional for you?
” the assembling by asian partners”
Hmm, I think we know what THAT costs. Maybe a nickel a day in some sweatshop.