On this blog, I write about the various computers I use and about the operating systems I use on them. Apart from Windows 7, which is relatively modern, these include Mac OS 10.6 Snow Leopard, which at this point is quite old, and Mac OS 9, which is practically ancient. I’d like to talk a bit about why I use such old systems.
A good, succinct answer to the posed question. I love using older systems not for nostalgia’s sake, but simply to learn, to experience systems I didn’t get to experience when they were current because I was too young or the hardware was too expensive. A few posts down I mentioned I’m about to buy an old HP-UX workstation, and I can’t wait to get my hands dirty and learn as much as I can about it.
Windows 7, released in July 2009 and having received its last feature update in February 2011, is relatively modern, while OS X 10.6, released in August 2009 and having received its last feature update in July 2011, is quite old. I stopped reading here, thank you very much.
Why? I think it’s a fair point to make. Apple releases new versions of macos quite regularly, and backwards compatibility isn’t all that great. Microsoft windows releases aren’t all that frequent, and you can still run most of the latest software on windows 7.
* Windows 10 six-month update cycle has entered the chat.
So you drank the koolaid …
Microsoft calling them “Builds” instead of just service packs and patches doesn’t really change much aside from the nomenclature. If they had adopted this strategy earlier, we’d have a ton of windows 7 “Builds”, since pretty much every security patch requires a rebuild of something or other, often the kernel.
Security patches are released on a monthly basis, these “service packs” bi-annually. You are conflating two different things here.
Windows 10’s ‘service packs’ are more like them very slowly trying to fix the garbage that they released. For example, they’re FINALLY going to be fixing the multiple control panel fiasco. Windows 10 wasn’t exactly ‘done’ when it was released. I figure every 6 months they’re making a large change that makes it more in line with what it really should be…
That said, there are things that supposedly will no longer work on Windows 7. Not getting security updates in this day and age is enough of a reason to ditch it.
Windows situation is changing.
Previously you could download and update DirectX, which is required to run modern games. And driver APIs were compatible across releases (2000-XP, and Vista-7-8). Then DirectX 12 happened, along with “Windows Store games”.
Now, it is no longer possible to run many modern games in older Windows versions.
How many people does that really matter to? Backwards compatibility isn’t free or happen automagically, there’s a real world cost in providing it. If you’re into running old OS’es then you’re likely doing so on old hardware so you have to question how many modern games would even run well on old hardware, if they run at all, assuming a compatibility layer exists? Yes, there are people who think it’s cool and even brag about the fact they’re `still using X` old software or hardware, as if it’s supposed to be impressive. That tends to be a small group and nobody outside of it cares. The only constant is that people will find things to complain about so I don’t fault the industry one bit for not prioritizing the past.
Yes, there is a cost, and yes companies are still doing it, because there is also a customer demand.
If I move to a new house, is it not reasonable that I would expect my appliances continue to work?
If I buy a new laptop, why should not I expect to have my old software continue to run?
Look how much effort was spent to make sure DOOM continued to run Windows 95:
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20160404-00/?p=93261
Or how much Android developers need to care about running on older devices:
https://developer.android.com/training/search/backward-compat
Or how much good press Xbox is receiving for supporting older games and accessories:
https://www.howtogeek.com/699890/how-backward-compatible-are-the-xbox-series-x-and-s/
I am sure there are cutoff points. Yes, for example, no need to run Windows 3.1 applications on Windows 10 anymore. They can run fine on DOSBox emulation: https://www.howtogeek.com/230359/how-to-install-windows-3.1-in-dosbox-set-up-drivers-and-play-16-bit-games/
I don’t understand how latest third-party apps still running on Windows 7 makes the OS itself in any way “more modern”. Windows 7 never evolved much from its initial release so it’s still a product of 2009 just as much as Snow Leopard was. Microsoft failing to produce a viable successor until 2015 doesn’t change that.
Windows “evolution” is mostly about tacking stuff on, rather than fundamentally changing things. This is not meant to be a jab at microsoft, but that’s the way it is. They have to, because so much of their customer base relies on backwards compatibility.
MacOS on the other hand … well … app store, sandboxing, notarization, metal + a bunch of other apis they’ve introduced. It has evolved quite a bit.
While windows … well it’s still just windows isn’t it? They still have two control panels in windows 10 … wonder why …
The reason why windows 7 is (imho) much more up to date than snow leopard is simply because of the reason you’ve stated yourself. It took microsoft a long time to come up with a new version of windows, and most people didn’t even bother with windows 8, further prolonging windows 7’s big market share.
There is simply more modern up-to-date software that will run on windows 7 than snow leopard.
And just as I also said already, having to stick with a legacy OS doesn’t make the legacy is “modern”. It is only an emphatic feeling of subjective nature, the author likes Windows 7 and wants to see it as still relevant.
HP-UX isn’t something i’ve dabbled with, but i appeciate ancient UNIX’s. So much so, that i’m restoring a PDP-11 with the goal of running 2.11BSD (and other things)
It’s hard to ignore just how well-built some of these older systems really are. I’ve dabbled in Classic MacOS on a PowerMac 7600, and one thing you have to appreciate is just how well laid out everything is, and the attention to detail these machines had. Working on the PowerMac was a dream, much better than some modern PC’s. And going back to the PDP-11, whilst it’s not so easy to work on (i have a BA23 case, not so easy to access stuff) the case is just built like a tank. And the logic behind the ordering of cards (PDP-11’s are backplane based systems) is actually very straight forward once you know what you’re doing.
I really liked how heavily, if not always well the unix workstations were made – considered in visual terms of damage when dropped from 100ft onto a car, I’d imagine an octane could work. The car might draw a few glances, at least. Perhaps they were bit overbuilt.
In modern workstations, they don’t really have the same space pressure to require much thought into design, I’d suggest. (even lenovo’s TR Pro workstations, can be seen not not really be equivalent, from pictures).
Rack servers though, have to care about space and servicing; I guess it does at least illustrate, what is not given attention to, but it is out there.
I understand where this guy is coming from, owning quite a few exotic/old machines myself. I have SPARC machines, a huge itanium machine, 68k macs, PA-RISC machines, SGI/mips machines, etc. However … the usefulness of a computer is pretty much determined by … well … what it can do …
Like it or not, the modern PC (whether it’s running windows, linux, some BSD, etc) is as universal as things can reasonably get. Yeah i get it, windows on x86 just isn’t sexy. Fine, I’m definitely not a fan of windows myself, but the versatility and universal utility of a generic PC running a good, mature OS is undeniable.
I enjoy classic mac os as well. It gives me the warm fuzzies and reminds me of a time when computing was more fun, less serious and just all around more enjoyable (IMHO). But the flipside of that is that most of this feeling is just nostalgia.
Do i enjoy messing around with irix on my old octane2? Yes, absolutely! Do i enjoy actually trying to get actual work done on it? lol no
Do i enjoy compiling gentoo on my RX8640? Yes, but i am a bit of a masochist in that sense. Would i read my email on it? No.
A hobby is a hobby, and it doesn’t need an excuse.
Modern computers are amazing. They really are. The companies that are selling them … well … in some cases, maybe not so much.
Sounds to me like the author would greatly enjoy using haiku.
I have to disagree.
First, most modern computer designs are too complex to use their full power. While with older designs it was possible to understand all the hardware, I doubt most people can follow the details of most hardware in their computer.
Second, modern computers lack hardware. Older designs let you add your own hardware to the inputs and outputs available and control them directly. Modern computer tend to have USBs only and when you try to find hardware that can be interfaces to the USB you find yourself limited in bandwidth and latency , and that is not the worse the costs of even simple interfaces can be outrageous, Why I can not get I2C as standard even is beyond me.
Finally, the manufacturers keep talking about the speed of their CPUs, but there is very little about memory access speeds and the costs of the MMU access. On a system with giga-bytes of memory the number of 4K pages is ridiculous.
Yes, modern computers are complex. So are modern cars, airplanes, boats, etc. It is unfortunate in a way, but it is driven by market demand.
Even a raspberry pi 4 is a pretty complex specualitive out-of-order, superscalar machine.
PCI-e is open: https://pcisig.com/specifications
USB is open: https://www.usb.org/documents
Your PC has i2c, and it is probably easily accessible. In PC speak, it is called SMBus.. You can tack on to tbe bus lines from temp sensors, fan controllers, etc.
Or for a less practical way, you can use the i2c management bus of your RAM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Rkk8McYCw
Memory access time specs can easily be found for most memory modules. It gets a bit muddled when you go look for the memory controller specs of your cpu.. Memory access speeds and latency in a modern system aren’t always super obvious or predictable. Big Ryzen/TR/Epyc systems are NUMA, and so are high end intel systems.
First, Thank, many Thanks in-fact for your information about adding I2C , I will be looking at my laptops for adding this feature.
I would just like to point out this new link I just saw https://hackaday.com/2021/03/23/diy-i2c-tester/
Happy day are coming for me it seems.
Thanks to ever changing SSL protocols using old OSes to access the Internet has become a near-impossible task in many cases and it’s really sad.
http://web.archive.org has become a go-to option for browsing the web but what about accessing search engines? Questions, questions.
birdie,
I don’t have a big reason to use an old OS personally. I suspect an old browser is not going to be that useful on the modern web anyways, but assuming that SSL protocols are the main obstacle, you could get around it using a squid proxy that takes care of the crypto conversion.
https://elatov.github.io/2019/01/using-squid-to-proxy-ssl-sites/
You generate your own certificate authority and once you import your CA key into the browser your proxy will be able to generate SSL certificates and tunnels that are compatible with your browser.
@Alfman Isn’t it more complex than SSL, what about things like TLS?
My main problems with older hardware now is that enabling older versions of TLS barricades newer systems, disabling older TLS barricades older systems. I can always run separate AP for the older system using the old TLS, but that’s leaving your network wide open. VPN, ets. etc..
Then you have to weigh up the complexity of managing all these “fixes”, versus the number of clients you are solving a problem for. It’s not trivial in a real world environment, not trivial like it is in a single user lab.
I love making use of old systems, if I can, but it’s not trivial when security becomes an issue.
cpcf,
Yeah, I’m guilty of using the term SSL as a generic catchall. Old habits die hard. I use openssl for TLS, and call the certificates “SSL certificates”, haha.
I’m not sure I’ve understood you.
With a squid proxy you can specify different ports with different “SSL” options.
http://www.squid-cache.org/Doc/config/http_port/
I have not needed to setup a transparent proxy myself (such that the client’s traffic gets intercepted/redirected through the proxy automatically). so in my case I can explicitly configure specific clients to connect through the intended squid proxy. For a transparent proxy, I would imagine it should be possible to redirect different clients to different proxy instances using iptables. Combined with “ipset”, you can do a lot of cool things with userspace scripting, but I’m quite unclear on whether this has anything at all to do with your problem.
Yeah, I understand. Personally I use a couple linux boxes to DIY these sorts of things, so it’s pretty easy to try different things. Could you try using a different subnet or even vlan for older clients?
I have older wifi devices that won’t connect to a WAP AP, only WEP. Unfortunately WEP isn’t secure 🙁
Yep agreed, a VLAN or Subnet is the best option of a less than ideal lot, but it’s still has issues when you need some interaction with the wider network.
Have I diverged because I’m talking about establishing and providing a reliable and secure environment for Client/AP connections, and you are talking about the functionality of what comes after that?
Don’t waste too much time on me about the specific details, I leave the nitty gritty to our hardware/network appliance provider.
cpcf,
My suggestion to try squid was more for birdie’s situation.
Personally I don’t bother running older APs for older hardware, I consider those devices out of comission, end of story. But if it were necessary, you certainly could. WEP provides virtually no security over an open access points – it can be cracked in a minute using readily available software. If you’re going to run WEP for legacy devices, I’d just make the access point open and not even pretend it’s secure.
if you’d be comfortable running an open access point (many businesses have open “guest” access points for their customers anyways), then it isn’t necessarily a problem, however this network obviously should not have any privileged access to secure infrastructure,
It sounds like you should be using VPN tunnels over the insecure APs. The very same VPN technology remote users have at home should do the trick. If a VPN is already setup, that should get you most of they way there assuming you can get a compatible VPN client installed on your older devices.
There’s a bit of a learning curve, but OpenVPN works fairly well across a diverse set of operating systems IMHO.
I use an asus eeepc1005 netbook from 2010 with 32-bit windows xp. With it i run the software to use my spirometer with my patients. Also with her i use office 2007 and the latest version of chrome compatible. It all depends on what i need, in my case the need is a small size computer and the neetbook meets it and wndows xp allows me to use the software i need.
Your patients data won`t be safe, if you`ll browse net with old Chrome
He could use Otter Browser or Mypal then.
I have an old SGI Tezro, dual R16000 mips, v12;GPU’s, custom sound card, capture card and practically every program ever made for Irix.
I still use it for programming and creating silly special effects for my videos.
Hey Thom,
Long time reader, but never commented.
I should be getting a C8000 in a few days. If you want to join forces. =)
A few years ago, I was successful in getting GPU acceleration on an IntelliStation 285 with Linux. I’m hoping to repeat the feat. =)