Home > Windows > Systemd support is now available in WSL Systemd support is now available in WSL Thom Holwerda 2022-09-22 Windows 18 Comments The Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL) can now run systemd inside of your WSL distros, empowering you to do more with your Linux workflows on your Windows machine. The most controversial piece of Linux software in recent times makes its way to WSL. About The Author Thom Holwerda Follow me on Mastodon @firstname.lastname@example.org 18 Comments 2022-09-23 5:25 am tux2bsd to quote myself from July on another forum, the subject was about systemd guy going to MS: “It’s possible he keeps working on systemd from Microsoft. Embrace, extend, extinguish. My long term prediction is Microsoft will adopt the Linux kernel and some other aspects e.g. systemd as it is a glue layer.” … and… ” Linux (proper, the kernel) & systemd are independent of the rest of the system. Whatever Microsoft hypothetically plonk on top can be totally closed source.” 2022-09-23 3:38 pm CaptainN-- The thing that was less predictable (while Balmer was around anyway) was the extent to which MS would embrace open source projects. It was once unthinkable that they’d replace Trident with Blink. Balmer even scoffed at the suggestion, calling it “cheeky”. But that’s exactly what they did. The great thing about open source is that it’s compatible with embrace and extending, and forking. But extinguish is going to be hard, and increasingly, it doesn’t look like MS would have much of an incentive to extinguish, considering how much of their revenue relies on open source tech. I mean heck, they don’t even have a dedicated WIndows team any more. 2022-09-23 4:50 pm tux2bsd Embrace, extend, extinguish – that’s just the tag line, has been for decades although the ecosystem has have changed considerably with smart phones etc, so it’s not the exact tactic but they’ve always been a predator company and I don’t believe that will ever change. Balmer was an embarrassment. 2022-09-23 10:58 pm Drumhellar Any examples of this, except the one time they actually used the phrase in regard to supporting third-party office formats? And, how do you do this with opensource? 2022-09-24 3:00 am tux2bsd As you couldn’t be bothered to search I’ve done that for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish 2022-09-24 1:03 pm Drumhellar I’ve seen that list, and it is actually terrible. The only example in that list that is an actual example of EEE is office documents: W/R to ActiveX – the allegation is that Microsoft was engaging in EEE by adding ActiveX as a plugin mechanism for IE, rather than making it compatible with Netscape plugins. This is not EEE, as Microsoft did not embrace or extend Netscape’s plugin functionality, nor does extinguish apply, since it is only recently labelled as unsupported more than 20 years later, and still technically works. W/R Opera: The case was almost entirely about browser bundling (Which isn’t EEE), and was later dropped after Microsoft agreed to offer a users a choice at first startup. Java: Microsoft replaced the standard Java Native Interface with their own interface which worked with COM much better. JNI was a mechanism to enable platform-specific features, and as such software that used it was not portable anyways. Microsoft only killed it when they were forced to by the lawsuit. They did technically violate the Java license agreement, but still no examples of extinguishing. AIM: AOL’s OSCAR protocol was not published and Microsoft reverse engineered it. AOL blocked MSN from operating on their network though, so Microsoft created their own protocol, which AOL complained they weren’t allowed to use. Adobe: Adobe blocked Microsoft from bundling PDF support, but no part of EEE ever took place. Email: Microsoft still supports IMAP, but only abandoned the decades old and somewhat insecure authentication method, and supports the modern and public OAUTH protocol for authentication. Google, and many other providers, have done the same. Unix/Linux: Microsoft embraced POSIX since it was a requirement to sell to many government agencies. They haven’t extended it, and have continued to support it in some form or another for almost the entire life of Windows NT – currently WSL is the method for supporting similar functionality, and the Linux components of WSL2 are opensource, making it impossible to extinguish. So, yeah, Office formats and possibly instant messaging are the only ACTUAL examples of EEE. 2022-09-23 7:34 pm zzarko A colleague of mine developed some bash scripts with WSL… And guess what, they do not work the same on the Linux server. So, I guess the next logical step from M$ would be: – Well, just install Windows server, there your bash script will work as expected… 2022-09-23 7:46 pm Alfman zzarko, A colleague of mine developed some bash scripts with WSL… And guess what, they do not work the same on the Linux server. So, I guess the next logical step from M$ would be: – Well, just install Windows server, there your bash script will work as expected… As an outsider it’s really hard to find the line between deliberate incompatibility versus a coincidence. Experiencing incompatibilities between implementations is natural, but proving actual intent is hard. I don’t suppose you know and can share the exact nature of the incompatibility? It could be interesting to see. 2022-09-25 12:31 pm emarsk The fact is, you don’t run your bash script “in WSL”. You install a full Ubuntu in WSL (or some other Linux distro of your choice), and then run your bash scripts in Ubuntu, with Ubuntu’s bash. I can’t see how Microsoft could be accused of making some “deliberate incompatibility”. In fact, Microsoft is working quite hard to remove incompatibilities, by developing WSL in the first place, and by adding more and more interoperability with the host OS, like allowing to run GUI Linux applications, and now systemd-dependent software such as snap. My guess is that the incompatibilities found by the OP’s colleague are to be found between their Linux server and whatever Linux distro they installed in WSL. 2022-09-25 1:37 pm sukru emarsk, I actually ran into a problem (posted below). The current WSL does not support systemd, or by extension snap packages, which might be required for some scripts (including ubuntu’s own upgrade script). But, yes, Microsoft is actively trying to remove those differences. https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/5126 2022-09-28 5:17 am th22 zzarko do you say the same about Windows–>Wine incompatibilities? 😉 2022-09-28 7:13 pm bassbeast you got better odds of winning the powerball 3 times while being struck by lightning for that to happen friend. Say what you will about the house Gates built but they know where their bread is buttered and that is the ability to have a quarter century’s worth of backwards compatibility to keep customers on Windows. if they went with a Linux kernel all that would have to be shitcanned and the second companies can’t keep their 20 year old specialized software or that XP era driver that runs that quarter million dollar CNC? Its buh bye Windows hello Google. MSFT tossed IE because they have realized browsers are yesterday’s news, browsers are so 1990s. What matters today is EYEBALLS, eyeballs you can get data from and sell products to which means they need to keep them on Windows and to do that they gotta keep that backwards compatibility. Why do ya think they aren’t doing a thing about those workarounds that let you install Windows 11 on a C2Q or being able to use any old Windows 7 key to get a legal copy of Windows 10? Its because the OS isn’t where the money is at, its all that yummy data the users generate and as long as that is the case? They will keep killing themselves to make sure that 10-year-old copy of Quicken, that 20 year old driver, and all those bits of specialized one off held together with duct tape and spaghetti code keep right on running on good old windows because as long as that is the case MSFT has the lock on desktops. 2022-09-28 9:13 pm Alfman bassbeast, if they went with a Linux kernel all that would have to be shitcanned and the second companies can’t keep their 20 year old specialized software or that XP era driver that runs that quarter million dollar CNC? Its buh bye Windows hello Google. I had a client who was a dentist and they ran into this exact situation: https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/28996931/Old-Xray-equipment-running-on-Win-XP-so-can't-upgrade-to-the-latest-Eaglesoft.html I help out with IT at a dentist office. They’re running Patterson Eaglesoft 16. All computers are running Windows 7 Pro x64 except for one PC. It’s running Windows XP because it is connected to a Gendex X-Ray machine. They asked me to update the Eaglesoft version 16 to version 18. Version 18 doesn’t support Windows XP. Have you figured any creative ways around this? Right now, the option is to either buy a new X-Ray machine for $18K or stay with version 16. The Gendex X-Ray machine uses DenOptix 1.5 and we couldn’t get the X-Ray machine working on a Windows 7 box. I had a few different Gendex techs look at it and they just said that we’ll need to stay with Windows XP until we replace the X-Ray machine. Thanks in advance for any suggestions! A lot of equipment ends up permanently tethered to unsupported versions of windows. If you want support you buy newer hardware. This is the way it’s always been. IMHO one should buy open source products (even if they’re windows based) because at least then you’ll always have a path to pursue 3rd party support even after manufacturer support ends. I know your going to reprimand me for saying that, but it is true. I concede that most vendors do not provide open source, especially in such niche industries. That is a problem that I myself face all too often. However for the CNC case you brought up in particular I believe the demand and market for open source there is quite strong. It would be wise to choose hardware that is at least compatible with open source software even just as a contingency plan for the future scenarios you brought up. 2022-09-29 1:49 am sukru Well… http://linuxcnc.org/ I have no idea how good this project runs. However, since the 3D printing era, there is an interest in open source manufacturing tooling support. Everything from designing things (OpenSCAD), “slicing” for target machine (CURA), and driving the mill itself (https://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/full/ ?) Anyway, this probably requires more manual tuning than commercial off the shelf software (if my experience with basic PLA/FDM is any indication). 2022-09-24 1:53 pm sukru I actually ran into a bug today, and having systemd (+snap) might have fixed it. Ubuntu in-place upgrade (do-release-upgrade) assumes presence of systemd, and will fail otherwise: https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/6942 Fortunately there was a simple workaround, someone mentioned hand editing one of the temporary scripts. And that also meant, there is a very active group of Microsofters(?) that work on open source support. 2022-09-24 3:51 pm joahim An interesting coincidence https://www.phoronix.com/news/Lennart-Poettering-Out-Red-Hat 2022-09-26 9:53 am Bill Shooter of Bul Hmm, my guess is he’s at a tech giant now. Any one else would have made more of a large splash about getting him. Google in particular seems like a fit, they were so so upset over the rework of cgroups. I can’t find it now but they basically said ” we’re the largest user of linux, why can’t you listen to us?” And Linus basically said, “you don’t pay my salary I don’t have to listen to you.” Which to be fair he basically says to anyone telling him to do anything, so I guess someone took him up on that. 2022-09-28 1:06 pm Alfman I can see that too. The ability to gain influence has a lot of corporate value, much moreso even than an employee’s skills, which are a commodity.