Today is a solemn day of introspection and rememberance here in the United States, and we here at OSNews would like to send our condolances to those who lost loved ones in the attacks on the Pentagon and Twin Towers. Though most of the people of the world did not experience the attacks first hand, there are very few people in the world who were not affected by them in some way. I know it’s a bit off-topic, but I’d like to open up a discussion thread today for people to air their feelings about the events of a year ago, and where they think things stand today. And if you read on, I’ll get things started by talking a bit about what happened to me on that day and since.On Semptember 11, 2001, I was in Atlanta at the Networld+Interop trade show. My wife was pregnant with our second child, and I brought her and my one year old boy with me to Atlanta. That morning I was on the trade show floor at the Red Hat booth, preparing to launch a product that I had worked very hard on, the Red Hat E-commerce Suite. The trade show floor opened at 9:00, and people started to trickle in. I started to give software demos. All of a sudden, cell phones started ringing.
My wife was on the phone. “A plane had hit the World Trade Center.” We started to bring up news sites on the web to see if we could see pictures and find out what happened. Before long, we were getting other flashes of news. We slowly started realizing that something terrible was happening. She called a few more times to update me, but slowly our cell phones stopped connecting, due to the fact that every living being in the convention center was on the phone. Access to the main internet news sites came to a virtual standstill. One of the only accessible sources of information was Slashdot, where people were re-posting news that they had gleaned from other sources. One of my co-workers, an ex-special forces guy, called some friends at the Pentagon and reported, ashen-faced, on what they knew. It was a coordinated attack with passenger planes, and there were still planes in the air.
By 9:40, companies were packing up their people and leaving the trade show. Red Hat rented a bus to take everyone back to Durham. I’m from Washington D.C. so I didn’t go. Luckily, we had rented a car, because within an hour of the airport closing, every rental car in Atlanta was gone. My wife was was watching TV in the hotel, frantic, and worried that the CNN building (next to the convention center) might be a target. I left the trade show and took the train to the hotel. Normally on public transportation people don’t talk to one another, but this trip was like group therapy. None of us knew much about what was going on, we were just fleeing downtown Atlanta and heading for the suburbs.
When my wife picked me up, I was so glad I had brought my family, and even though we were were displaced 800 miles from home in a hotel room, we were together, and we weren’t in D.C. My good friend was at Cantor Fitzgerald the week before doing consulting, but had decided at the last minute to take some consulting work back in D.C. and not return to New York that week, and his life was spared, while all the people he had worked with that previous week perished. My best friend’s wife was in the Pentagon on Spetember 11th, though she was luckily on the other side of the massive building and felt only a vibration when the plane hit.
We made it home safe by driving our rental car to D.C. My product, which was not ever really launched and hit the market when companies were paralyzed, was ultimately a financial failure. But it was a small price to pay to be safe and sound. A year before, I had stood at the window of the World Trade Center in the Cantor Fitzgerald office, looking out over New York, standing at the exact spot that the plane hit the building. It makes me think how only a twist of fate can bring us happiness or great misfortune.
Since that time we’ve seen hysteria and paranoia and the erosion of our personal freedoms in this country. More people now would like to see the press have less freedom, and would gladly accept less freedom for themselves in exchange for a little more safety, or even the perception of safety. Greedy people bellied up to the table in Washington to exploit the crisis for a handout. Even though the immediate aftermath of the attacks brought out the very best in people, with heroic deeds and noble sacrifice, the long-term aftermath has just as much brought out the worst in us, with cynical opportunism, political maneuvering, and exploiting the people’s emotions for personal gain.
After this year, I hope there are no large-scale commemorations of the events of September 11th. Like all great tragedies, it should be remembered, but not ostentatiously commemorated or celebrated. Today, let’s remember, and let’s try to move on from this and make the world a better place. I believe that that’s the best way we can honor the memories of the people who died that day, and it’s the best way to make sure that the people who planned and executed that villainous attack will have ultimately failed to achieve their goal.
ok let’s review:
1) Recent discoveries of us subs, may prove that the us was planning to attack first.
(The discovery you are talking about is a JAP sub found off the coast of hawaii, it was believed to be the first shot fired in the pacific from america, Get your facts straight. Oh btw way if you really want to get facts right why not read “A World at Arms: A global history of World War II” by Gerhard L. Weinberg. Read that and then well talk.
2) Histori lessons has taught me that, the US would have won maybe 1-2 month later, so there was no need to throw the bomb
(Above book will really explain how it was gonna take @ least 8 months to yr+ to finish it off. An it wasn’t just gonna be americans, limes, frogs, and russians)
3) If tyhere were need, then I am sure japan would surender after only 1 bomb, no need to throw 2
(Payback is a bitch isn’t it?, should have thought about that before a sneak attack on a sunday morning during peace time whill having there ambassadors negotiating a peace with the usa)
4) If you really think that it was one of the best moves the US has made blah blah blah
(well since I’m a nuclear engineer, enough said.)
Get your facts correct, if it wasn’t for the USA then democracy as we know it today would be gone. The reason your able to vote today in what ever country your in in is because of us.
“BTW, we weren’t trying to take over Viet Nam. That was our problem. We were ‘policing’ and not allowed (by our own military) to gain ground. That’s why we lost so many people and why we never won.”
A police force of 300 000 soldiers? Plains “raining” agent orange to kill the ground (kids are still born with handicaps because of this)? 100000’s dead viatnemese on a police action?
Please! Live with it. A poor country kicked the ass of the biggest power on earth like David killed Goliath. How many films does Holliwood need to make to try to change the history and get over this trauma?
C.
the us really loves democracy, huh?
like the puppet regimes it supports in afghanistan, pakistan, saudi etc. etc.
don’t forget the barfed coup attempt in venezuela either…
Okay, C. You’ll believe what you want to believe. From now on I’ll just let you prove your own ignorance…
From someone with friends and relatives in Venezuela, I gotta say you’re wrong about that.
“like David killed Goliath”?
China beat us in Vietnam. I wouldn’t describe China as David.
And we were there because people there asked for our help.
Some of those people were the people of france. It wasn’t just the US doing its own thing that time. France had helped another people fighting for freedom that asked for help – the US. We saw vietnam as fighting the same battle we had 200 years earlier.
Vietnam was actually one of the most justified wars we have had. It just was doomed to failure because of politics.
-c.u.s.c.
It also bothers me that King Bush doesn’t feel that he needs Congress’s permission to declare “war” on another country.
Who does he think he is?
-cusc
if you just stop messing about in other people’s countries, maybe the ‘terrorists’ will go home?
I tried to read this thread… Sorry, I couln’t go any further… It made me sick to see how stupid people are, knowing nothing about history or the world around them…
Don’t you know that the truth is different from the justice?
When I see posts like “without americans, all of you would be speaking german” I have to go and vomit… And americans still wonder why people dislike them… Why don’t you all go and read something, try to understand humankind and its history, and then get back… But now, maybe you are too stupid to understand simple things…
So many of you are venting your opinions about what happened in the past, your dislike for certain governments, etc. Day’s like today should be devoted to how war, killing and destruction can be avoided, how peaceful resolutions to conflicts can be achieved, how war achieves nothing but death, disease, misery and destruction. In fact, every day should be devoted to that.
Those of us in the USA, it would be good for us to reflect why so many in the world hate our government. Our government has a lot to account for. But, the finger pointing and name calling going on here is sickening. My God, if many of you were in the same room, there would be rivers of blood running from it, if your comments are any indication. You want to talk about history? It’s very simple. War = death, disease, misery, hopelessness, despair and destruction. That is all anyone has to know.
“And we were there because people there asked for our help.
Some of those people were the people of france. It wasn’t just the US doing its own thing that time. France had helped another people fighting for freedom that asked for help – the US. We saw vietnam as fighting the same battle we had 200 years earlier.”
Yes. Vietnam kicked every invasor out of their country including the french that wanted to play colonisator (or conquistador). Lots of European countries went to Vietnam and they all got kicked out.
And no. You weren’t fighting for freedom. The people wanted a change and they fought for it. And yet you talk about freedom when the french en the US armies killed 100000’s viatnamese. I guess it never occured to you that the viatnamese people doesn’t liked to be ruled from Paris or Washington?
“Vietnam was actually one of the most justified wars we have had. It just was doomed to failure because of politics.”
Yes. Oh Chi Min and the Vietcong informed the people and motivated to defend themselves. Anyone that survived the hell of Viatnam can tell you that.
However, I think we’re getting way off topic.
To get back: strength to the families that suffer because of the violence of Al Qaeda or the US army. People are people and 8000 died. September 11th shouldn’t be a “only US dead matter” conmemoration day but a “madness and greed killed 8000 people” day.
Regards,
C.
C.
Ralf, it’s people like you who give credence to the theory that all the intelligent Europeans immigrated long ago leaving only inbred, low-IQ, neo-nazis like yourself. This is of course only a theory….
>> When I see posts like “without americans, all of you would be speaking german” I have to go and vomit… And americans still wonder why people dislike them… Why don’t you all go and read something, try to understand humankind and its history, and then get back… But now, maybe you are too stupid to understand simple things…
Yet you can judge all Americans and dislike them in general based on the posts of opinions that you disagree with. You are at the opposite end of the same spectrum these people are on. Talk about stupid.
Its pretty obvious you;re the fascist. Ralf has acquitted himself admirably – you leave much to be desired.
BTW , FH’s comment ” Fuck all you non americans ” = = US Foreign Policy paraphrased.
>Now, when we are the target, France (who haven’t had a
>military victory in over 100 years) and England, who are
>supposed to be our friends; puss out. What I’m seeing from
>Europe now is nothing but snobbery and a ripe bunch of
>poltroons.
What are you talking about???? Great Britain has backed the US ALL THE WAY over the last 12 months. RAF tankers re-fuelled American planes during the Afghanistan campaign.
The British freely agreed to a REQUEST by the Americans that the Royal Marines help search the mountains in Afghanistan, because the American Rangers were inadequately trained for mountain warfare.
The British SAS had been in Afghanistan for some time before the bombing began conducting recon missions and raids.
The British allowed US aircraft access to its Diego Garcia base in the Indian Ocean.
The Royal Navy had an assault craft, a nuclear submarine and a number of other ships in the area providing support for the Americans.
Tony Blair went out of his way to help build the alliance against al-Qaida this time last year, reaching countries that the UK has better relations with than the US does.
The UK is the only country that supports the removal of the oppressive regime in Iraq.
I don’t know where you are getting your information from, but the UK hasn’t been looking the other way along with other European countries. To suggest so is rather insulting and it makes me wonder what other rubbish is being spouted in the American press about the UK.
>> BTW , FH’s comment ” Fuck all you non americans ” = = US Foreign Policy paraphrased.
And any other country in the same position that the U.S. is in would be so much more altruistic… Give us a break!
“Meet the new boss…Same as the old boss.” – The Who
make me wonder if Washington had it right with his “avoid foreign entaglements” bit in his farewell address.
Actually, President Bush does have WAR POWERS on a limited basis, I believe it is for forty days. This was established a long time ago, secondly, he has WAR POWERS if the Iraqi Regime is considered to be a terrorist state(which is is). However, have you been watching t.v. or reading news articles lately, Bush, while he CAN legally attack Iraq w/out congress apporval, he has stated he won’t…He will seek congress’ approval first.
if you just stop messing about in other people’s countries, maybe the ‘terrorists’ will go home?
Boy people love having it both ways (including those in the US government). Either you want us “messing” with other people’s countries our you don’t. Don’t ask the US for billions of dollars in financial aid, or for military equipment or to build factories in other countries and then tell us to mind our own business.
Imagine a world where the US “stopped messing” with other people’s countries, whatever that means. Would that stop US resentment or create more of it. At that point we would here all the people poo-poo’ing about stuck up Americans keeping everything for themselves. We would hear about how American’s can’t share or want it all for themselves. While you are complaining about the US government wanting to insure its billions of dollars of investment abroad, ask yourself what the situation in those countries would be like if it wasn’t for US investment.
People want to get the third world out of the third world status, and that takes tons of money and economic investment. It also takes stable governments. The US should support more democratic governments, but the US support of dictators is once again neither unique or irregular. In many cases we support one dictator over another dictator. Unfortunately most of the world isn’t truly ready to embrace a representative government. Let’s not imagine all the cases of support dictatorial regimes as being the big bad US supporting the big bad general against the poor freedom fighters. Those “freedom fighters” are many times fighting at the behest of yet another dictator, just one that we don’t like!
Every government has turned blind eyes to problems they don’t want to deal with and governments that support their world view despite what they are doing to their citizens. Why do people cry about US lack of action in many African nations and then demonize us for our actions in Iraq or Yugoslavia? At least the US government has an answer to their contradictory position–there is no US interest in those areas. That might not be the most PC answer, or a very nice answer but it makes sense. For the most part governments and people mind their own business until someone starts messing with their business. Why does anyone expect more of the US?
Every body can stay here posting lots of comments, but as I can see the fact is:
Recently (one year) too much people die. Was that necesary? Really Not. Whas that Just, may be but not against that people, just against the country.
Why against the country, Why USA.
Simply, USA dont’t care how many wars have to fight, has the money, has de power, has resources. And everybody everywhere may be shure right there will be. USA is not a saint. Every war they where has economic background. Sometimes has used by politics, but the trut is… USA will do anything it consider necesary by its self benefit. There are a lot of phantomimic programs to cover the real world.
It in it’s right. Every body with power will use it for it’s own benefit and it USA does.
As in somewhere i had read “The history is written by the winners” you USA habitans only know your side of the history, you were lunatic with comunist and like with “war to terrorism” it’s a shield to justify al your country do, it was an excuse to fight and irrespect other countries.
I’m from Guatemala, we have no choice than support USA, few years ago (1945) here was a civilian revolution with a lot of benefits for our country. There was Nixon as USA president, and everything that doesn’t like to USA was pointed as comunism. UFCO has de control of a lot of our territory (United Fruit Company) and then economic control and Power. These changes afect theire interest and some UFCO investors was in the congress. To resumen as an example they order to CIA take over and release that change. Our President was obligated to leave the country, he tried by diplomatic ways (Without bloody war) to prevent this invasion, but as always is Whitout consentimen of USA nobody support Guatemala, and we go backward. CIA put as president an uncualified governor. Make a show about the Holy intervention of USA against comunism, and dictate to our new president what they want to ear. UFCO continue as it wants, and the history continue…. but the important is this…
USA acts at it’s own. If something is good for they, then they help, else no way.
I’m sorry for your pain, but please, remember the pain of all people in the world and the hurt you country cause…
……
Don’t use my grammar to criticize me, if you comment about, comment about the contents.
Hmm, wasn’t your country one of the first to go? Not to mention being one of the most complicit nations mit Das Dritte Reich?
Belgische Shutz Staffeln troops were some of the most brutal concentration camp guards in all of “Greater Germany”. In fact, that was not just the german speaking belgians. One fighting unit – comprised of French-Speaking Belgians- were SO GOOD – the germans often used them for propaganda footage. And again, since they were so good, the unit was moved from the control of the Wehrmacht to that of the Waffen SS during the war.
That being said, I’m fairly sure a good portion of your elder countrymen would’ve been happy to speak the language of the Fatherland.
Just because I’m an American, it doesn’t mean I dont know about my history AND yours as well.
Eugenia, what did you do with this kind of thread? See, now everybody is talking about something different from the subject… 🙂 Maybe in the future you should consider people’s feelings and frustations before… This is REALLY a senzitive matter, america vs rest of the world… And for sure, this, osnews, is not the place for it…
In the end, since I’m not going to write more in this thread, I’m very sorry for the people who died a year ago. I want a world withoud this… Peace and knowledge to all…
USA acts at it’s own. If something is good for they, then they help, else no way.
As I pointed out elsewhere this is the modus operendi of every government throughout history. The US has stuck its nose into situations where it had no self interest, Bosnia and Somalia are the first ones that come to mind. However for the most part we have to protect our interests, as do the governments of every other country around the world. The US may have the biggest military and one of the biggest economic engines in the world, but it isn’t infinite. We can’t just go everyone and solve every problems. (If we did, wouldn’t we further be getting into everyone else’s business and be creating more resentment?) Since our resources aren’t unlimited, we have to pick which conflicts to enter and which side to move on. Once again, this is the same as every government throughout the world throughout history.
Has the US always made the right choice, far from it. At the same time, don’t demonize the US government for acting in the exact same way as every government throughout history.
>>In the end, since I’m not going to write more in this thread, I’m very sorry for the people who died a year ago. I want a world withoud this… Peace and knowledge to all.<<
Ah ha. you must be more French than belgian. You have the typical French attitude – surrender as soon as the going gets tough.
…while he CAN legally attack Iraq w/out congress apporval, he has stated he won’t…He will seek congress’ approval first.
Actually, congress already gave him their approval last year.
Well, I can see that we (Americans) are not wanted in the world community, we try to help, we try to be the leader that the ONLY world superpower has the ability to be, but we just aren’t wanted. Maybe it’s jealousy, maybee it’s just pure hatred, none the less, I propose we isolate ourselves from the world community. Of, course, Israel, we will gladly still invlove you with everything we do, but that’s about it, well, maybee England too.
Let’s see how the world fairs when we pull out our Trillion+ GDP, when we pull out our military from S. Korea and N. Korea invades, lets see how the Middle East and Western Europe fair when China come rolling across the border, let’s see how Europe reacts when Russia becomes the big red bear again, becasue without us there is no deterrence, you won’t have the deterrence of 30,000+ nukes that has kept those giants at bay for a long time…
Oh, don’t worry about us, though, sure we consume 40% of the worlds oil suppy, but we have always been able to make what we need(i.e. automobiles, telephones, electricity, t.v’s, elec. computer, nuke energy and bombs, airplanes, this sure is a long redundant list), we will find alternative energies, as far a food goes, well, we are the worlds bread basket, more food for me!
Maybe if we shut down the borders to all immagrants and forieners we would slow down development growth (birth rate in US is slightly higher than 0, most of our pop growth comes from immagrants) and save some of this beautiful land for ourselves…We’ll let Europe form the E.U. into the worst parts of the bible (one world givernment = Revelations), anyway we will check back in with ya’ll in about 10 years to see how bad your various plagues and poverty and socialist/communist governments have become…
Just don’t ask us for money or help…we learned our lesson, we’ve been bent over and screwed without even the courtesy of Vaseline too many time to save the world again…
Don’t take this too serious, just some random thougts.
> Hmm, wasn’t your country one of the first to go? Not to > mention being one of the most complicit nations mit Das ?> Dritte Reich?
Actually, I’m from Romania. I moved in Belgium a year ago. Romania was an ally of Germany until 23 august 1944 (it’s complicated why and how). Then came Russia. 45 years of darkness and terror (believe me, I know)… Of course, back then, the western world (including America, of course) had no problem letting Stalin to take everything he wanted…
But I don’t get your point. Europe is a region with a lot of countries, with a lot of history which is hard to get by… In a few decades, I hope the problems will be solved, but who knows…
Back when the USSR broke up, people talked about the “end of history”. How naive we were. The Cold War, for all its ills kept the lawless countries safely controlled. After the Cold war– we have Afghanistan, Bosnia, Somalia– all running out of control. I was a pacifist. I didn’t agree with Viet Nam in the sixties. I felt we should ignore the pesky little 3rd world rat holes. Unfortunately, I guess we can’t do that. The US and NATO are all that stands between civilization and a retreat to Taliban medieval-like hatred.
What are you talking about???? Great Britain has backed the US ALL THE WAY over the last 12 months. RAF tankers re-fuelled American planes during the Afghanistan campaign.
I am aware of Tony Blair’s support, and I respect him very much. I should have been more specific regarding who I was talking about instead of blanketing all of Europe. My mistake.
What I’m referring to is the unsupportive posts from the UK on this site today and the people in the UK that are upset with Tony Blair’s decision to help with Iraq. I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear.
I think Tony Blair is a great leader; it’s the unsupportive followers that I’m quite disappointed in. However, my opinion matters not at all. The world will go on its merry way and I will eventually die. Therefore, please don’t get too upset at anything I say.
> Ah ha. you must be more French than belgian.
I don’t get you. What’s your problem? Ok, if you want to talk seriously, no problem… About what? 11th september? america vs europe? WW II? Is this the right place? Without Europe, America would still hunt for animals to have something to eat, believing that if someone takes a picture of you would steal your soul…. and so on… Don’t be so smart….
Fuck you and your country!
Its odd how easily you say that of anyone else but how much offence you take when its flung back at you.
Its that national attitude that suggests that the US can never be wrong that causes crap like this.
Its that national attitude that suggests that the US can never be wrong that causes crap like this.
Funny, I think I’ve been pretty clear that the US not only can be, but has been wrong in the past. I’m suggesting the opposite position back to people like you however. Why do you hold the US to a standard higher than all other governments throughout history. It would be nice if we lived up to a higher standard, and in many cases I think we do, but how come only the US is to be condemned for protecting its own self interests? Are you saying your own country doesn’t do the same thing?!
No need to get upset ~seedy~, for the most part we Americans love Enlgand, after all, we can always joke that a bunch of minute men kicked the hell out of the world superpower at the time, the hated Red Coats…Only joking, that was nothing more…
Seriously, the UK and US don’t need to fight, after all, we share the world most popular language, and a lot of culture, although the culture is getting more and more different, anyway, in my proposed Declaration of Isolation, I said that you gues could join us and let the rest of the world rott without us, see we can be friends…
> but how come only the US is to be condemned for
> protecting its own self interests? Are you saying
> your own country doesn’t do the same thing?!
Maybe this is the difference. Europe doesn’t try first brute force, like america, replacing one dictator with another and so on, but in the hope of peace, education is put in the first place… Of course every country protects its interest, but not without thinking of the whole picture before…
Like Asimov said, “violence is the last refuge for incompetence”…
“but how come only the US is to be condemned for protecting its own self interests?”
Well maybe becuase nowadays there are no other government that sticks his nose everywhere living thousands or dead people behind “because it’s protecting its own self interest”?
C.
“This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I’d like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas 10? If so, why don’t they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon – – not once, but several times – and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the American who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don’t think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I’m one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those. ”
Just some food for thought.
…Europe doesn’t try first brute force, like america, replacing one dictator with another and so on, but in the hope of peace, education is put in the first place…
I’d like to believe this was true for the most part. This isn’t historically true however. Furthermore, the general US foreign policy is not entirely consumed with war. That is a further distortion. If we simply brute forced everything, would we not be “brute forcing” Europe militarily due to the recent farm and steel tariff issues? Would we not also be brute forcing Egypt, Jordan and other countries of the world militarily to support our position in Iraq?
Well maybe because nowadays there are no other government that sticks his nose everywhere living thousands or dead people behind “because it’s protecting its own self interest”?
But is this because of a moral high ground or because of a lack of ability. I’m not condoning the US government supporting oppressive rulers, which is essentially what we are talking about. At the same time we can see the exact same thing occuring on microscopic scales around the world. Look at the unstable regions of the world that we are discussing. What proactive action has been taken by the African governments to stop the genocides over the last decade, or the financial collapse generated by Mugabe’s dictatorial mandates?
World peace is a nice thought. We could do it if everyone “kept to themselves”. I’m not talking isolationism here, but simply respecting the rights of their neigbors. It was said earlier that the greatest threat to world peace is nationalism, and I’d tend to agree with that. It is this intense nationalism which causes people not to “keep to themselves”. Thus we have wars and destruction. If the US “kept to themselves”, that wouldn’t shut down the war machines throughout the world, unfortunately.
Thank you very much Gordon…understand that the Canadiens are our good friends, sure we both make jokes about one another, but when it comes down to it, we are very strong allies…
I read through all the posts. What enrages me is that many people say: the goverment of country X murdered N people on year Y, so I guess it is alright that the goverment of country Y killed N’ people on year Y’.
Come on people! All killing is bad, every war is bad. And nobody has to support the killings of his current or former goverment or their ancestors. This includes <add your country here> too.
It is sad that many Americans haven’t understand that the “Anti-Terror War” is a war of their goverment. Not theirs. There are more peaceful means of eliminating terrorism. American goverment chose war. But that doesn’t mean that the American citizen shall buy that.
And to say my religious thing: Jesus teached “turn the other cheek” not “eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth”.
Actually, the concept of zero was developed in India. Arabs originally got credit because they were the first to bring the concept to the western world (due to trade routes). Check your facts.
> That is a further distortion. If we simply brute
> forced everything, would we not be
> “brute forcing” Europe militarily
Wait a second. Are you denying that America nowadays is acting like it’s the world’s policeman? Not only policeman, but the judge also???… And this I don’t want, where my problem with America is… Unfortunately, you act like this only when your interests serve you… Nothing to gain for America? No problem… Cecenia? Communism? Terrorism? What’s that? A, if terrorists attack us, then ok, we have to take over the world, because we are the best… You are very proud of landing on the moon, for example, but you forget, of course, that Von Braun built the rockets… By the way, Von Braun was the chief architect for the Reich and V2 missiles…
But this is stupid and it isn’t going anywhere anyway… Too bad we’re even talking about this…
and can we go back to our Mac vs. PC pissing contests?
“Well maybe becuase nowadays there are no other government that sticks his nose everywhere living thousands or dead people behind “because it’s protecting its own self interest”?
ever heard of Russia or China? Packistan or India (who were at the brink of nuclear war? Ethiopia? Somalia (warlords), Serbia? Sudan? Iran (who supports just about every terrorist group including Al qaida), Turkey (not so nice to those kurds)? Iraq? Syria (lots of support for anti-israeli groups)? The PLO (clinton gave them a pretty good deal)?
There are still plenty of nasty’s in the world. I really think that many of you just dislike the fact that the US has more reach than anyone else. everyone in this group is unwilling to accept or look at any wrong doing by anyone but america. Is everyone else a saint or is it just okay to be a devil with a short arm? So many of you seem willing to forget about wrongs so long as they are committed locally.
US citizens may need to learn why the US is disliked but the rest of the world may need to learn what a world that is dominated by the chinese, Europeans, Russians, Packistanis, and indians is like. I can guarantee it will be far worse. Far worse. The US is not the cause of all wrong. Really.
The king of spain often says “i am not so stupid and my wife is not so smart.” Likewise, America is not so evil and the rest of the world is not so good.
All you Americans that think that the world would be doomed without your money and we should be grateful to you for having $, you remind me some rich boy I knew once a child that owned a ball and wouldn’t let other kids play unless they kissed his ass.
You are pathetic. Is money the best of your qualities?
the generalization of people here. “All you Americans…” boy, that really helps with this discussion.
Then again, I’m a third generation American, with a heritage from northern Europe, China, and the Middle East. What do I know? I’ll just leave my computer and go back to oppressing myself.
the fucking americans dig their pridefull nose in every countries business. now come and try hitting iraq, all muslims will get together and beat the fucking ass of george w. bush to hell.
look:
we muslims belive in god, our holy religionship is in saudi arabia. maybe some of you people heard of hadch or kaabe (kaaba) the 3 directions of islam is (iirc i may be wrong now) syria, saudi arabia and iraq. if america starts hitting iraq without a fucking reason then we gonna beat them up. attacking iraq without any fuckign reaons is like attacking the islam itself.
Ryan wrote:
The US is not the cause of all wrong. Really.
Same goes for Americans too. Sadam isn’t the source of all evil. Bin Laden either. Not to mention the former USSR. OK they _are_ bad but I think the US causes the world more harm in the try to get rid of them, than the harm they cause themselves to the world. US looks sometimes like an amateur surgeon. And nobody wants to get operated by a such.
Wait a second. Are you denying that America nowadays is acting like it’s the world’s policeman? Not only policeman, but the judge also???…
Funny you mention that, because this is the exact debate we have inside the US. “Why should we go around the world saving economies and countries that have no bearing on our well being,” is a mantra raised by the right wing in our country. Everytime we have, once again Somalia and Bosnia come to mind, we get nothing but international heartburn for it. More on this below…
And this I don’t want, where my problem with America is… Unfortunately, you act like this only when your interests serve you… Nothing to gain for America? No problem… Cecenia? Communism? Terrorism? What’s that?
I would like to see the US, the UN and the entire international community take more responsibility for letting oppressive and dictatorial governments off the hook. If the west had stayed out of these areas initially we wouldn’t have to worry about interacting now. Unfortunately the west did create the situation throughout the world via hundreds of years of mismanaged policy and we, the current people of the world, now have to deal with it. I’ll work on my government to clean up its act, you guys do the same. Without sarcasm, lets see if we can get rid of all regimes which oppress their people. It is possible to get rid of war, it will just take a few generations.
A, if terrorists attack us, then ok, we have to take over the world, because we are the best…
Every country that has been beset by terrorism has gone after them with a vengeance, not just the US. Britain, Spain, Germany, Japan and other countries where freedom unfortunately allows these types of people to breed and grow covertly deal with the issue in the same way. In the case of the al Qaeda, this was an international powder keg waiting to burst and every nation that feels threatened (including vocal opponents to US action in Iraq action like Germany) are being just as vigiliant as we are.
You are very proud of landing on the moon, for example, but you forget, of course, that Von Braun built the rockets…By the way, Von Braun was the chief architect for the Reich and V2 missiles…
Many people in Germany did horrible acts under Nazi Germany. Should we have simply exterminated the whole lot of them? I think not. Von Braun and many other former Nazi’s made enormous contributions to the world after they were removed from that setting. I don’t excuse Von Braun’s actions during WWII, but that doesn’t diminish the good he and others did. Are you equally appalled at the Fokker corporation for their production of airplanes, or Volkswagon for their production of tanks? Do you have any idea how many German, Italian and Japanese engineers during the war period went on to add positive contributions to the world?
But this is stupid and it isn’t going anywhere anyway… Too bad we’re even talking about this…
I disagree with you on this point the most. This is constructive dialog. This is an exchange of ideas. This type of constructive exchange is what is necessary so that people of different views can live together without war. Certainly it is easier to envision a warless society if we turn it into one homogonous unit. That isn’t possible however. Instead we must learn to live with each other’s differences of opinions. Dialog, talking, debating and other constructive mechanisms, when used intellectually will be what makes that possible.
Please, United States Citizens….
American are from the American Continent.
North American Include Mexico, United States and Canada
Don’t call yourself “Americans”, it’s not proper, when you using american it’s hard determine what are you refering to.
Everywhere from II world war customed to use american refering to United States Troop, but it’s really bad.
When you say “Americans” you are covering more than you are thinking.
Please all other over de world think about this…
(Gengtilicio en español: Estadounidense)
Oh, by no means, but realize that the basis for all economic principles is the fundamental statement of, “There’s no such thing as a free lunch.” See by having Trillions more than anyone else, we can do things that no one else can…other qualities the US possess as a nation, inlcude inventing/innovating/creativity. You don’t have to look hard to find evidence of this: electricity, cars, telephones, electronic computer, nuclear energy (and bombs), t.v.’s, airplanes, ball point pens…the list goes on and on…
We are very giving, do you realize that we give more aid than all other countries???Seriously, we rebuilt Europe after WWII.
We invented baseball! We pay some of our player the equivelent to the GDP of some small countries (250 Mil. for A-Rod).
Oh, yeah, we have one of the longest standing governments is the world, our constitution has been in effect since 1789, no wars over change of power here…You know what come to think of it mourga, the world would be a better place without us, I mean, modern society is so out of touch with the neanderthals that preceeded us, it’s a disgrace, all of this technology in medicine and science is spoiling everyone, get a clue!
when I said a “constructive dialag” I was not including the simplistic, ad homenin attacks by the likes that occur between my two posts. Sorry for the confusion…
I wrote : “All you Americans _that_think_that_ blah blah”
This may not be clear enough but the statement refers to Americans that believe in what follows. Not to ALL Americans UNCONDITIONALLY.
When I see posts like “without americans, all of you would be speaking german” I have to go and vomit…
If people get sick when you hear a fact, that is their problem. I wonder how these people react when they get up in the morning and hear the temperature on the morning news; it must send them into the bathroom crying.
And americans still wonder why people dislike them…
So far you have not given a reason. Just because we saved Europe when Germany decided to start a World War – twice, I might add – while most of the countries in Europe just sat by and tried to “negotiate” with the powermad dictators, does not mean that we like being hated by the Europeans. If you are capable of exercising logic, I suggest that you do so.
So many of you are venting your opinions about what happened in the past, your dislike for certain governments, etc. Day’s like today should be devoted to how war, killing and destruction can be avoided, how peaceful resolutions to conflicts can be achieved, how war achieves nothing but death, disease, misery and destruction. In fact, every day should be devoted to that.
An honest assessment of history shows that sometimes there are no peaceful solutions to the problems we face. When you appease terrorists and power-mad dictators, they do not produce peaceful, happy citizens nor do they practice peace themselves. When the Euroweenies stop ignoring the problems that are faced by people everywhere – both free and oppressed – we will finally achieve peace. Until then, we must act alone.
And no. You weren’t fighting for freedom. The people wanted a change and they fought for it. And yet you talk about freedom when the french en the US armies killed 100000’s viatnamese. I guess it never occured to you that the viatnamese people doesn’t liked to be ruled from Paris or Washington?
We went because we were asked by the South Vietnamese government, which was being *invaded* by the North Vietnamese. If you think that the North Vietnamese gave their people freedom, you haven’t the faintest idea what you are talking about.
Yes. Oh Chi Min and the Vietcong informed the people and motivated to defend themselves.
I wonder how crossing over their country’s border and attacking both the South Vietnamese soldiers and Americans qualifies as “defending” themselves.
To get back: strength to the families that suffer because of the violence of Al Qaeda or the US army. People are people and 8000 died. September 11th shouldn’t be a “only US dead matter” conmemoration day but a “madness and greed killed 8000 people” day.
LOL
Its pretty obvious you;re the fascist. Ralf has acquitted himself admirably – you leave much to be desired.
Oh joy. Time for pin the tail on the fascist again.
Arturo,
Guess what, our nationality is called AMERICAN…check this out, and try to keep up…if you are from Mexico, your NATIONALITY IS MEXICAN…if you are from Canada, your NATIONALITY IS CANADIEN(sp?). North American would describe all three, but is regional, not national, similarly, if you are from Brazil, you are Brazilian, your regional name is South American. If you are from cuba, you are Cuban, or you could be called Latin American/Central American, depending on how you view the region….A citizen of the United states of AMERICA is AMERICAN…see how that works??? Check out the CIA Worldbook if you don’t accept my argument…
What are you talking about???? Great Britain has backed the US ALL THE WAY over the last 12 months.
Finally, some good news!
I don’t know where you are getting your information from, but the UK hasn’t been looking the other way along with other European countries. To suggest so is rather insulting and it makes me wonder what other rubbish is being spouted in the American press about the UK.
It is unfortunate that some people just generally assume that since many Europeans are incomprehensibly stupid all Europeans are that way. It is similar to the way people think that all Americans are stupid, except that the view of Europeans is based more on frustration and bewilderment than blind hatred and jealousy.
Boy people love having it both ways (including those in the US government). Either you want us “messing” with other people’s countries our you don’t. Don’t ask the US for billions of dollars in financial aid, or for military equipment or to build factories in other countries and then tell us to mind our own business.
Ah, but then they put on their victim hats. The US is supposedly taking up all the world’s natural resources and making all the world’s pollution, so we should give all our ill-gotten money away to the poor poverty-stricken people who really deserve it. Of course, as soon as we try to make sure that the money actually gets to the people (rather than the dictators and their wealthy friends), the US-haters put on their diplomat hats and ask us to stop meddling.
Trying to reason with these people is like trying to pull a grizzly bears teeth without pain-killers or sedatives. You are quite likely to get your head crushed, if the bear is in a good mood. 😉
People want to get the third world out of the third world status, and that takes tons of money and economic investment. It also takes stable governments.
The reason that the third world is still the third world is because of oppressive governments. We can give all the money we want to places like Nigeria, but we would be incredibly luckily if the people even see one cent of it.
In the early stages of the war against Afghanistan, people criticized the US for not sending supplies to the poverty-stricken population. We then sent supplies, which were confiscated by the government never to be seen by the people as long as the Taliban controlled the government. These groups retain power not in spite of the poverty but precisely because of it; poverty can be blaimed on the US, and the news service can just “fail” to report when the US sends aid. It is a cozy little setup – for the dictator.
Joseph Stalin was once asked why, when his people were being starved to death and wiped out with genocide, they people remained loyal to him. Stalin said nothing at first, but then he took a chicken and slowly plucked all its feathers off while the bird screamed in agony. He then set the bird down and walked away. Freezing and unable to keep its own warmth, the bird huddled between Stalin’s legs for warmth even though it had suffered such pain at his hands only moments before.
Maybe in the future you should consider people’s feelings and frustations before… This is REALLY a senzitive matter, america vs rest of the world… And for sure, this, osnews, is not the place for it…
Oh, quit whining just because you lost. 😉
Seriously, it was very nice of you to write the sentiment about September 11th.
At the same time, don’t demonize the US government for acting in the exact same way as every government throughout history.
Huh? At the end of World War II, we could very well have taken over the world. Western Europe disbanded its armies. US had a nuclear monopoly for a good four years. No other country could have withstood the American economy paired with the production of nuclear weapons. But we did not attack. We have only attacked to protect our interests when they have been threatened by people who would like to see the US cease to exist. The US foreign policy has been almost entirely isolationist since the beginning until recently. I could go on and on, but we are not “just like every other country.”
Maybe this is the difference. Europe doesn’t try first brute force, like america, replacing one dictator with another and so on, but in the hope of peace, education is put in the first place… Of course every country protects its interest, but not without thinking of the whole picture before…
Are you referring to the war against Iraq? Hussein has failed to comply with his UN resolutions for quite a few years. Each time we suggest war to remove that liar from power, you idiots suggest another round of diplomacy. He complies…for about a week. Then he kicks the UN inspectors out. Up until now we haven’t had a President who thought of war as something other than a distraction from Monica. We’ve had a lot of reports that Hussein has biological/chemical weapons and is close to acquiring nuclear weapons, but what do the Euroweenies want us to do? Negotiate, again, for another round of agreements that are completely meaningless because we will not be able to enforce them. Sheer idiocy…
Well, we’re back to September 11 again, one year after the free world changed forever. The media is bombarding us with the horrible images of that day, relentlessly making us re-live the horror we felt last year. I don’t know how we can expect families of victims to be able to cope.
There is a channel button on your remote, is there not?
Please, please, please think before you write. Your statements do nothing but a disservice to the image of the U.S. to people on this board. Certainly some comments through this discussion have come in at the same level as the ones you’ve recently posted, but that’s not an excuse to stoop to those levels. Instead point out the issues logically and intellectually, not by saying silly things like “We’re so great because we invented baseball and have the biggest army, and if you don’t like it screw you…”
Dustin I know the US and their money have offered much advances to the mankind. But in my country we say “do a good thing and then forget about it”. That is, be altruistic. Don’t expect to buy respect with $.
After all the world doesn’t need only advances and money. I’d prefer to live in a peaceful world with stone-age technology.
After all the world doesn’t need only advances and money. I’d prefer to live in a peaceful world with stone-age technology.
Unfortunately this was never the choice. We didn’t live in a peaceful world before the advent of technology or civilization at the begining of the agricultural revolution. If we were speaking of the ficticious world you speak, I would choose stone-age and peace too. That unfortunately isn’t, and never has been, a reality.
On another note, this editorial on ArabNews.com speaks very pointedly towards much of the sentiment I have been trying to convey on this board in terms of attrocities and international action:
http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=18538
Praise all those people died of the WTC and Pentagon Attack on September 11,2001……………..
Please, please, please think before you write. Your statements do nothing but a disservice to the image of the U.S. to people on this board. Certainly some comments through this discussion have come in at the same level as the ones you’ve recently posted, but that’s not an excuse to stoop to those levels. Instead point out the issues logically and intellectually, not by saying silly things like “We’re so great because we invented baseball and have the biggest army, and if you don’t like it screw you…”
DIY. I made no such claims.
@siiiawww
i give a fucking shit on those who died on 11th sept in usa. get a freaking look here:
http://www.hizbollah.org/arabic/picarchive/picarchive.html
look at the killed children you americans and the fucking jews are responsible for that massacres.
Hypocrite.
>>You are very proud of landing on the moon, for example, but you forget, of course, that Von Braun built the rockets… By the way, Von Braun was the chief architect for the Reich and V2 missiles…<<
And he von Braun got the idea for rockets from Goddard (an AMERICAN!)
>>Are you denying that America nowadays is acting like it’s the world’s policeman? Not only policeman, but the judge also???<<
Haven’t we been asked to, time and again, over the last 50 years? Now when we take the role, without being asked, the world gets upset? Screw you.
Fuck off. You have a problem with how we do things pick up a gun and stand post…I don’t think you will for long when a delta formation of F-16 Eagles levels off the horizon and you hear the boom from the supersonic speeds…Oh, sure you sure are quick to yell at the American, but when when good ol’ Saddam chemical bombs thousands of his own people, you don’t even want him out of power.Jackass.
Its odd how easily you say that of anyone else but how much offence you take when its flung back at you.
Its that national attitude that suggests that the US can never be wrong that causes crap like this.
Didn’t I say that our country can be wrong; and that I think it is corrupt? My only point is that there are a large number of Europeans that don’t want to support us in fighting against the group of individuals who bombed us. Guaranteed if you were bombed in a similar fashion, we would be there to help.
I also apologized for making a blanket statement and not being specific regarding who I was talking about.
What more do you want?
Guaranteed if you were bombed in a similar fashion, we would be there to help.
I dunno…maybe there is something to this pacifism thing after all? j/k 😉
Dustin wrote:
Oh, sure you sure are quick to yell at the American, but when when good ol’ Saddam chemical bombs thousands of his own people, you don’t even want him out of power.
Come on Dustin! How can you be so naive? It is possible that Saddam is killing or torturing his opponents but it is hard to believe that he bombs his own people with chemicals. This sounds as ridiculus as some conspiracy theories saying that CIA was behind the 11th Sept. attack. If Saddam was really that paranoid, his own people would have overthrown him. But the largest part of Iraq people seems to support him (for reasons that we don’t know or maybe even don’t understand) and that is why the US have trouble overthrowing him.
Remember the Gulf??? That was one reason we went into Iraq…btw Saddam’s “people” don’t support him…they can’t overthrow his government, it’s called a dictatorship, and he controls the guns…
It is possible that Saddam is killing or torturing his opponents but it is hard to believe that he bombs his own people with chemicals. This sounds as ridiculus as some conspiracy theories saying that CIA was behind the 11th Sept. attack. If Saddam was really that paranoid, his own people would have overthrown him
In a military dictatorship scenario, sometimes the people don’t have a choice. He did gas his own people throughout the 80’s. This was how he stopped the uprising from within. If he didn’t, who else gassed the Kurds? Just because an administration exacts terror on their people doesn’t mean the people can overthrow them. Stalin was never overthrown, neither are many of the currently seated dictators who torture and murder their own people. It’s naive to think that people under such an oppressive regime, who have never known democratic rule, would be able to overthrow their dictators.
The good thing about dictators is that their governments usually only last as long as they are alive. Saddam will die eventually, there will be a big power vacuum, and life will go on.
the fucking americans dig their pridefull nose in every countries business. now come and try hitting iraq, all muslims will get together and beat the fucking ass of george w. bush to hell.
Why do you care anyway? Bush is after Saddam, who isn’t a muslim. Why not just turn him over to us and save everyone a bunch of trouble?
look: we muslims belive in god,
Riiight, I have a “Noble Qur’an” with the painted gold doily on it right here. I also work with a fellow from Egypt who has shown me all the gory Arabic parts left out of the pacifist, marketing version sent out to English speakers. I also know the beliefs that all infidels should be killed until the world is all muslim, and the teaching that the US is evil and must die, and so on. Save me your sob story.
our holy religionship is in saudi arabia. maybe some of you people heard of hadch or kaabe (kaaba) the 3 directions of islam is (iirc i may be wrong now) syria, saudi arabia and iraq.
Does it also include Israel? Is that why muslims are always trying to kill the Jews or is it because they believe the birthright should not have gone to Issac and are offended because it did?
This is what makes me laugh about the self proclaimed intelligentia, lets-negotiate-with-insane-dictators crowd. The dictators say, we want Israel back and all the Jews and the US dead. How the hell is anyone supposed to negotiate with that? Um, okay. Well, um, what if we promise to phase them out of existence over the course of the ten years.
if america starts hitting iraq without a fucking reason then we gonna beat them up. attacking iraq without any fuckign reaons is like attacking the islam itself.
Wouldn’t that make our targets much clearer?
Also, if we show we have a reason, are you going to be fine with that?
“A minutes silence for the victims of September 11th 1973
…the date on which a CIA-sponsored coup in Chile overthrew the democratically elected government of Allende, leading to an estimated 30,000 political killings.
Now THAT’S terrorism.”
http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?50@@.3ba7412b/13
“Spin-on-this readers are invited to enter our ‘spot the difference’ competition. We describe two unelected world leaders who must be stopped at all costs. All you have to do is ‘spot the difference’. Here’s dictator one, known as ‘Saddam’: “he’s lined his own pockets while his people struggle to get by. He’s signed death warrants to have fellow countrymen executed. He wants to control the oil supply in Iraq.” Here’s dictator two, known simply as ‘Dubya’: “he’s lined his own pockets while his people struggle to get by. He’s signed death warrants to have fellow countrymen executed. He wants to control the oil supply in Iraq.” One clue, if you CAN spot the difference, you’re probably Tony Blair.”
http://www.spin-on-this.com/
mougra, Saddam used posion gas on the Kurds. Everything else aside, he is a lunatic.
When I argue for peace, I do not mean sitting by and doing nothing or making weak kneed treaties or that type of thing. Going to war, resorting to terrorism are the easy way that requires no imagination. The challenge of peace is a challenge because it is the difficult, hard way. Many of you are very intelligent, I know this from your comments about computing and operating systems. Use your intelligence! Do not take the easy way, the way a Neanderthal man could just as well take. Achieving peace is a hard, difficult road and requires constant and absolute dedication. Why are you wasting your breath insulting each other and each other’s nationalities? Some of you are very young. You sound as if war or terrorism is like your computer war games. It is not like that. There are no “cool wars” – what an incredible statement! War and terrorism means people, human beings, being blown to bits, families destroyed, economies ruined, disease, ignornace, hunger, poverty, hopelessness. The kind of hopelessness that would lead teenagers to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up.
The world is so small now, there is no more room for war. What good do you think will come from your insults and ill will? Nothing, absolutely nothing. If you want a challenge, you computer geniuses, take up the challenge of peace.
I don’t really feel like adding to this US vs the world argument.
But i have to say watching the It all on TV was the must sureal thing i have ever seen. Expecially the documentry i saw last night which had cameras following the fire fighters as the towers collapsed. The amount of dust and paper everywhere was mind blowing.
The loud crash of people jumping was also hard to comprehend. It may sound sadistic but i found it quite interesting to see this film, and respect the fact i will quite likely (hopefully) not see anything at all simerlar during my life time.
My final comment is that violence solves nothing, it only adds to the pain suffering and hatered in the world. Be it violence against so called innocents or suspected criminals it doesn’t solve anything, there are better ways to make people responsable for their actions.
“Spin-on-this readers are invited to enter our ‘spot the difference’ competition. We describe two unelected world leaders who must be stopped at all costs…
A funny post, but with one major flaw. George W. Bush WAS elected. Sure, all those rubes who look at an election in the same light they do a basketball game don’t like it, so they lie to themselves so as not to think their team is a complete loser (I have to admit, Gore did a fine impersonation of a benign lump, but there just wasn’t much else to cheer for).
RE:America…. by Arturo
By Dustin (IP: —.nextel.com) – Posted on 2002-09-11 22:26:21
…your regional name is South American. If you are from cuba, you are Cuban, or you could be called Latin American/Central American, depending on how you view the region….A citizen of the United states of AMERICA is AMERICAN…see how that works??? Check out the CIA Worldbook if you don’t accept my argument…
¿How you call to people of the American continent?
Your conuntry name means “United States” of <Continent> “America”.
The CIA can define right there it too, but it’s still a mistake, an institutionalized mistake. But Continent America and American is the right way. You confirm what I wrotte:
“Central America” -> “Central American”
“South America” -> “South American”
Whole Continent:
“America”->”American”
You don’t have a proper region name, but along the time this error become law around the world, to the point that you thinkg it’s right. One thing is that your country name can’t be properly pronunctiated as a regional name and then you use one more generic.
Peace, END
“This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.”
This is typical american-type propaganda. Please mention that the above was the opinion of one man, and if I remember correctly, it was written MORE THAN TWENTY YEARS AGO. Canadians greatly sympatise with the Victims of Sept 11, but most do not agree with the way Bush is handling thing. You can read about the general canadian view on:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?
pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1026144989210
&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492
&call_pagepath=News/News&col=968793972154
And the view of the canadian prime minister on:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?
pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&
cid=1026144988841&call_page=TS_Canada&call_pageid=968332188774
&call_pagepath=News/Canada&col=968350116467
I think his point is that United States of America doesn’t translate (in English) into an adjective.
E.g.
United Statesian?
Unitedish?
Statesian?
United States of American?
However, America does lend itself to become an adjective and that’s why it’s been used and the rest of the name has been truncated. Everyone pretty much realizes it’s a misnomer, but what can you do? It’s a quirk of the language. As a side note, all official positions use the full name but it’s impractical to use the fullname in common lexicon.
As a couple of side notes:
Somewhat similiarly Gautemalans are known as such and not ‘of the Republic of Guatemala’. Now if your country was unfortunately named after some (shared) geographic feature you’d be in a similiar predicament.
and:
“United States” isn’t particularly descriptive either since there more than country who use such a prefix. Just as it would be erroneous to refer to someone from the Commonwealth of [country] as from the Commonwealth since more than one exists.
Not that it makes it any less of a misnomer but what is to be done?
“United States” isn’t particularly descriptive either since there more than country who use such a prefix. Just as it would be erroneous to refer to someone from the Commonwealth of [country] as from the Commonwealth since more than one exists.
Actually this is true for the US too. It is the “United States of America”. However, Virginia and Pennsylvania (I’m not sure if there are others) are not states, but commonwealths. I guess to be completely accurate it needs to be:The United States and Commonwealths of the Lower Half and Western portions of the North American Continent, and islands in the Atlantic and Pacicific Oceans. Never thought of it that way before… 🙂
We are very aware of Britains involvement and appreciate it greatly. Seems Britain has one of the few governments that agrees with the philosopy of “freedom before peace”. Right now, I think Tony Blaire is highly regarded in the U.S.
Thousands of innocent people from all over the world (it was the WORLD Trade Center that was destroyed) died on this day. Today should be a memorial day of rememberance-not an opportunity to get in some political spin. It’s too bad some people want to get their cheap shot in instead of having some respect for the dead.
To AriB (IP: —.nyw.ny.webcache.rcn.net) – Posted on 2002-09-12 00:58:07
the problem is not the dead people. no doubt 11th september was not nice. but i am not the person hyping such a day and make it a memorial. we shouldn’t forget all the other people that got killed by whatever reasons on other days here on this globe. these people never get a memorial day or something.
Looking at all the Anti-American sentiment, all the feelings out there that we “got what was coming to us”, I want to predict the future for you that hate America: We *will* go it alone. It will escalate out of control. While we are too busy to intercede, you will get carved up and divided between Russia and the Islamists. India and Pakistan will also take the opportunity to have a pissing contest, and China will intercede by conquering them both. We won’t stop them, because of an unspoken agreement not to impede us when we’re forced to use nukes on the Islamists. Sad, but with no one else backing us, how else can it play out? Soon after that the Russians will get their reward when China has an, ahem, heart to heart talk with them, and we will not stop them in exchange for control of the anti-American coward countries that would not fight by our side. We will not pay to rebuild their cities this time, nor will vaseline be offered when we bend them over. America asked nicely, now we will *tell* you miserable ingrates how things are going to be.
Okay maybe not quite that far, but it’s fun to think about after learning how much my country is hated in this forum.
The Islam outreach sites are bragging about how many converts to Islam were gained by 911. I guess it’s not just extremists after all. Ever see Star Trek? No Islamists in it. Know why? It takes place in the future >:-P
H. Franco Mussolini please take this quiz…
TRUE OR FALSE:
1. Islam has the most effective foreign lobby in Congress.
2. Islam has more of its adherents in President Clinton’s cabinet than any other religious/ethnic/foreign entity.
3. Islam receives more U.S. economic help than any other region in the world.
4. Islam hates Jesus Christ more than any other religion.
5. Islam has been more active than anyone else in litigating suits against Christian symbols on public property in the U.S.
6. Islam has the most powerful secret spy organisation in North America. It collects many thousands of names of individuals and organisations in North America for its purposes of intrigue and influence. It possesses more influence upon law enforcement agencies than any other entity in North America.
7. Islam is the religion that teaches its adherents that they are supremely superior to all other people, the latter being merely animal-like.
How did you score? Here is our reply: all of the statements are FALSE. The only entity that meets these criteria is Talmudism/ Zionism.
—–
Usama bin Laden:
We are in a strong and brutal battle, like I have mentioned today, between us and the Jews, with Israel being the spearhead, and whomever backs it from Zionists and Crusaders. So we have not hesitated [lam natawarra`] in the killing of the Jews who conquered the sanctuary of our Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam). And the ones who kill our children and women and brothers night and day, and whomever stands in their trench, he only has himself to blame [falaa yalumnna illa nafsihi].
“The war is between us and the Jews,” the newspaper quoted him as saying. “Any country that steps into the same trench as the Jews has only herself to blame.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,53157,00.html
How did you score? Here is our reply: all of the statements are FALSE. The only entity that meets these criteria is Talmudism/ Zionism.
Interesting quiz, but the influence you are implying exists in US government et cetera is not such an extreme form of Judaism. Most American Jews don’t associate themselves with the orthodox faith. Furthermore, here’s an eye opener for all non-Americans, the overwhelming majority of Americans couldn’t care about the religion of Osama bin Laden or anyone one else. That comes from the environment we are brought up in. In the US you can have a fundamentalist Christian living next to a Wiccan who is married to an atheist, and no one cares. Certainly no one bothers blowing themselves up to get the government to convert to their religion.
If the current middle east, and the rest of history for that matter, only prove one thing, let it be that you can’t have theocracies. Unless 99% of your population is of the same religious belief, a theocratic government will always be rought with turmoil and unjust treatment of those not within the fabric of that religion.
In terms of the US involvement in the Israel/Palestine conflict, that has to do with a number of factors, with the media skew being one of them. After reading many Islamic newspaper sites I have gotten a much different perspective on the situation than I have from the western press. That being said, neither side has an unbiased view. Furthermore, still nothing in the Islamic press has convinced me that blowing up civilians is justified in Israel or anywhere else (Ireland ring a bell). Of course the whole reason for the mess is because Muslims don’t want to be ruled by non-Muslims and Jews don’t want to be ruled by non-Jews. See how much of a tangled web the intertwining of religion ond goverment weaves.
Can’t we all just get along? and that guy from the UK Mr. blair said with UN backing, even us US citizens are seeing the light that you can’t go it alone with out the UN. Iraq should not happen unless the World is in agreement
If you look at the bomb droping on japan more lifes were saved by doing it then not.
they were saying 1 million american lifes would be lost in a main land japan attack.
Also stop bringing up things like that just look what saddam did to the Kurds in the North , the Europens did to Africa and so on and so on everyone does things they are not proud of people do you think bringing them up and making me feel bad is really going to help you in 2002? all it does is make americans mad if I just started off on “those euro trash” things like that what do you think you’d respond with???
I think through the UN we can work together to fix the problem and the american people will not let bush go in alone don’t worry. Now can everyone please stop the american bashing I know it’s fun but what good will it do? do you see the responces you are getting from other americans? maybe that’s a hint so play nice and maybe if we work on our problems we can inprove the World and so on
Come on Dustin! How can you be so naive? It is possible that Saddam is killing or torturing his opponents but it is hard to believe that he bombs his own people with chemicals. This sounds as ridiculus as some conspiracy theories saying that CIA was behind the 11th Sept. attack. If Saddam was really that paranoid, his own people would have overthrown him. But the largest part of Iraq people seems to support him (for reasons that we don’t know or maybe even don’t understand) and that is why the US have trouble overthrowing him.
Saddam does not have a nice, open Democracy like all the little European countries. He has enemies, and he kills them with chemical weapons. Ordinary politicians use mud; fascist wannabes use weapons.
Achieving peace is a hard, difficult road and requires constant and absolute dedication.
Name one instance where peace has been achieved by pandering to powermad, totalitarian dictators.
Why are you wasting your breath insulting each other and each other’s nationalities?
I couldn’t care less about their nationalities. Stupidity is not limited to one particular nationality. Not even American. 😉
You sound as if war or terrorism is like your computer war games. It is not like that. There are no “cool wars” – what an incredible statement! War and terrorism means people, human beings, being blown to bits, families destroyed, economies ruined, disease, ignornace, hunger, poverty, hopelessness. The kind of hopelessness that would lead teenagers to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up.
I fully understand the gravity of the situation. War is not cool. War is hell. But sometimes war is better than laying down our arms and surrendering to people who want nothing more than to kill us and drag our dead bodies through the streets laughing and jeering at the dead heretics.
The world is so small now, there is no more room for war. What good do you think will come from your insults and ill will? Nothing, absolutely nothing. If you want a challenge, you computer geniuses, take up the challenge of peace.
Peace is achieved by eliminating those who want to start wars. It has always been so. Are you so completely bereft of intelligence that you think Hitler would have been a nice, peaceful ruler if we had just surrendered to his invading troops?
My final comment is that violence solves nothing, it only adds to the pain suffering and hatered in the world. Be it violence against so called innocents or suspected criminals it doesn’t solve anything, there are better ways to make people responsable for their actions.
*takes on happy goody two-shoes voice* Yes, by not defending yourselves you, too, can gain peace.
Sorry, but I want my peace *before* I go to heaven.
However, America does lend itself to become an adjective and that’s why it’s been used and the rest of the name has been truncated.
(Do we need to have this debate? Of all the useless…)
We are very aware of Britains involvement and appreciate it greatly. Seems Britain has one of the few governments that agrees with the philosopy of “freedom before peace”. Right now, I think Tony Blaire is highly regarded in the U.S.
It is nice to see that there are some positive posts here. :-))
Thousands of innocent people from all over the world (it was the WORLD Trade Center that was destroyed) died on this day. Today should be a memorial day of rememberance-not an opportunity to get in some political spin. It’s too bad some people want to get their cheap shot in instead of having some respect for the dead.
Yes, this thread was supposed to be about our experiences a year ago when all this happened. It is a shame that people posted stupid things on the level of “u dumbass americanz kilt 300,000 with bomb.” Could they not have waited at least a day while we remember our dead?
Looking at all the Anti-American sentiment, all the feelings out there that we “got what was coming to us”, I want to predict the future for you that hate America: We *will* go it alone. It will escalate out of control.
Hmm…just for the record, this was not at all what I meant when I said that we would probably have to go it alone. Upon rethinking the matter, we will not go it alone. Britain has been with us; Canada is likely to join, and I think that other nations will join as well.
At least they are all paying lip-service today. 😛
Can’t we all just get along? and that guy from the UK Mr. blair said with UN backing, even us US citizens are seeing the light that you can’t go it alone with out the UN. Iraq should not happen unless the World is in agreement
It all depends on whether the UN has the guts to authorize the use of force to rectify Iraq’s failure to comply with the UN resolutions. It would look rather silly for the UN to say no. I think that once our case is made to them, they will say yes. Oh, they may stall a bit…to pretend that they are deep in thought, but they will authorize the use of force.
How sad that even with all your understanding you’ve chosen the path you’ve taken. I know a Christian with blue eyes and blonde hair. Jewish stores wouldn’t take his merchandise on consignment, but Muslim stores would. Once he actually got fired from a part time job because the Jewish owner thought he started going to school. When he was a child, Jewish adults used to trip him as he walked past them. Many of us are not blind, many of us see this. We struggle not against Sins & Demmagogues, but against DEM’s in Synagogues. But when you made your point by using our own citizens as flying weapons of death against their fellow man IT CHANGED EVERYTHING just as surely as Timothy McVeigh’s actions caused every Skinhead to re-examine his allegiances. The Jews may want our children to grow up to be uneducated slaves to their children through things like credit card debt, BUT THEY DON’T FLY AIRPLANES FULL OF US INTO BUILDINGS FULL OF US. You’ve united us all now. There is no more White and Mexican, Jew and Skinhead, now we are all AMERICANS, and we’re not going to forget what you did.
American triumphs:
– Independence from tyrannical, monarchial england.
– Reapeat above.
– Not coming over there and making colonies out all of europe
– Kicking mexican butt in texas (2nd biggest state in the Union).
– Helping out in World War I.
– Winning World War II (this means smashing nazism, imperial japanism, and fascism) with some help from the British.
– Not coming over there and making colonies out all of europe
** The only failing here is we could not abolish muslimism(the kill everybody that isn’t us religion), communism (take stuff away by force from people that have it to others that dont, so EVERYBODY is miserable), socialism (basicaly the same, but communistic wealth redistribution is “democratically” legislated), and globalist utopianism (everybody needs to belong to a COUNTRY, screw global socialistic/communistic tyranny).
– Establishing Israel as a soverign nation. Thumbs up to the Israelis for smashing the attempted Arab invasion and defending their home soil, and then keeping it so they can’t be so easily invaded again. I am proud we supply advanced American arnaments to help keep them safe and to kill Palestenian militant terrorist cowards who convince ppl to go blow up innocent civilian Israelis. If Israel lets Palestenians have towns and civilization even after killing Israelis, and their Jordanian cousins put them in refugee camps, you tell me who is “racist,” or mean or cruel or whatever….
– Economically grinding down the united soviet socialist republic (remember them?) and WINNING THE COLD WAR, no nukes required. Too bad we will not be able to do this to China, because the union bosses want to empower their communist friends by causing our manufacturing jobs to be shipped over there…
– Not coming over there and making colonies out all of europe We believe nations should mostly be left alone unless they are f- ing with other nations.
America is the greatest country on Earth. Followed closely by Britain and Israel, and maybe Australia. F all the rest of ya. All these other countries remind me of little children, or gangster ghetto thugs who are not mature enough to leave each other alone and not kill/hurt each other, so the big brothers or police or whoever has to come over and spank them so they behave. Just remember that whoever you are, wherever you are, you can thank the United States of America for you freedom to even look at and post on this page, that it even exists.
note: all alphabetical capitalization omitted has been omitted on purpose, to convey the relative worth of each word.
P.S. G.W. didn’t “steal” the election, saw that in some of the moronic posts a few pages back, I think…
Makes me feel quite sick, not from anti-American (who personally I feel should not post if all they are going to do is flame) but the Americans who have take a thread meant to show some form of respect to people effected by, killed or survived the horrific attack on the WTC, and turned it into mindless bickering and one-up-man-ish.
Well, here is my virtual candle for all none-combatants affected by war.
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[candle from: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/7373/xmas.htm#candle ]
Your link doesn’t lead to a candle, but there is a nice looking woman in a bra. I think that’s even better.
Thousands of innocent people from all over the world (it was the WORLD Trade Center that was destroyed) died on this day. Today should be a memorial day of rememberance-not an opportunity to get in some political spin. It’s too bad some people want to get their cheap shot in instead of having some respect for the dead.
I totally agree with you.
I think the only reason you are seeing so much negativity is that there are some posters here today who feel that those people’s deaths were deserved and more death should be doled out to atone for some percieved wrongdoing on our part.
On the anniversary of such a murderous and cowardly act, I think people’s ires are raised just a bit at the spewers of such ignorant drivel.
It seems like there is alot of anti American sentiment from some Europeans regarding “America’s” international behavior. Well, stop funding it. As I read these posts, I only have one vision. A European sitting in a Boeing airplane running on fuel processed by Exxon, drinking a Coke, eating a leftover McDonald’s burger typing on his Intel based IBM thinkpad with a 3Com ethernet card and batteries from General Electric running Microsoft Windows occasionaly glancing at the Disney movie being played, just hoping to get home in time to watch Star Trek and praying his girlfriend is not playing her Michael Jackson CD collection too loud.
America’s power comes from corporations. Corporate power comes from consumers. And none of the above mentioned companies were larger than life until hitting Europe. The vast majority of American corporate revenue is from international consumers. And I am willing to bet none of you have had a gun pointed at your head, and if you did it was a Smith and Wesson that you purchased.
Gee Dubya was put into power by companies being funded by international consumers. Are you getting how this works now? If you don’t like the U.S. then stop giving us money. Everyday you send billions over here whether we need it or not.
Finally, 9-11 is about freedom to Americans. In case any of you forget, that is our history. Remember? The U.S. has always been consistent on this issue. It is our defining cultural quality. If Americans feel that an external force is trying to remove our liberties or control us through tyranny and fear we will fight back. And that means whether anyone is with us or not. Again, check our history. We have been consistent on this. Does any country really doubt whether provoking the U.S. will result in retaliation? I think not. So don’t run up and kick us then go tell the teacher that we are picking on you.
So, if you don’t want to deal with the U.S. then it is simple. Don’t buy our goods and don’t fly planes into our buildings. But, right now both are happening.
Hey Hmm, better catch up on the news – Clinton isn’t President anymore <g>.
Peace!
null, is it I who am bereft of intelligence? You think peace is always achieved bu eliminating those who are against it? Well, it depends on what kind of peace you’re talking about. The Pax Romana was enforced peace – is that what you’re speaking of? Have you ever heard of Ghandi? Of Martin Luther king, Jr.? I don’t think you have the slightest idea of what you’re talking about. I am getting to be old – I was in a nasty little war in Southeast Asia and I saw what war is and what it does. It is not the way.
However, I believe Bush is going in, no matter what. To paraphrase Bette Davis, fasten your seat belts, it’s going to be a bumpy ride.
September 11 is also the date – in 1973 – when a coup encouraged by the US overthrew a democratically elected government in Chile. The official death toll in Chile, 3,197, was remarkably close to the number of lives lost to terror 28 years later in America. This disquieting piece of deja vu passed unremarked in American coverage.
Empower the UN.
The UN should be made aware of all international arms deals and all international funding. Prevent countries like America, UK, Russia (before it’s financial collapse), China, or any other powerful country from supplying arms and finance without it being explicit to the world that it is doing so. The UN needs to be able to punish those who covertly trade in arnaments and blood money.
Then you will see a decline in the underhand selling / provision of military hardware that all governments partake in and you will see a decline in the hatred towards countries who no longer will be able to finance wars in self-interest. You will see a decline in terrorist activities as people will be unable to fund their organisations without severe repercussions.
You guys find a way to get relief from such a huge pain.
And that we all, victims, attackers and bystanders (who can really say he’s not also a victim or attacker?), at least, learn something from this.
It’s sad that someone thought that flying planes into the twin towers was a good idea.
It’s sad that the USA leadership does not understand why that happened.