Today is a solemn day of introspection and rememberance here in the United States, and we here at OSNews would like to send our condolances to those who lost loved ones in the attacks on the Pentagon and Twin Towers. Though most of the people of the world did not experience the attacks first hand, there are very few people in the world who were not affected by them in some way. I know it’s a bit off-topic, but I’d like to open up a discussion thread today for people to air their feelings about the events of a year ago, and where they think things stand today. And if you read on, I’ll get things started by talking a bit about what happened to me on that day and since.On Semptember 11, 2001, I was in Atlanta at the Networld+Interop trade show. My wife was pregnant with our second child, and I brought her and my one year old boy with me to Atlanta. That morning I was on the trade show floor at the Red Hat booth, preparing to launch a product that I had worked very hard on, the Red Hat E-commerce Suite. The trade show floor opened at 9:00, and people started to trickle in. I started to give software demos. All of a sudden, cell phones started ringing.
My wife was on the phone. “A plane had hit the World Trade Center.” We started to bring up news sites on the web to see if we could see pictures and find out what happened. Before long, we were getting other flashes of news. We slowly started realizing that something terrible was happening. She called a few more times to update me, but slowly our cell phones stopped connecting, due to the fact that every living being in the convention center was on the phone. Access to the main internet news sites came to a virtual standstill. One of the only accessible sources of information was Slashdot, where people were re-posting news that they had gleaned from other sources. One of my co-workers, an ex-special forces guy, called some friends at the Pentagon and reported, ashen-faced, on what they knew. It was a coordinated attack with passenger planes, and there were still planes in the air.
By 9:40, companies were packing up their people and leaving the trade show. Red Hat rented a bus to take everyone back to Durham. I’m from Washington D.C. so I didn’t go. Luckily, we had rented a car, because within an hour of the airport closing, every rental car in Atlanta was gone. My wife was was watching TV in the hotel, frantic, and worried that the CNN building (next to the convention center) might be a target. I left the trade show and took the train to the hotel. Normally on public transportation people don’t talk to one another, but this trip was like group therapy. None of us knew much about what was going on, we were just fleeing downtown Atlanta and heading for the suburbs.
When my wife picked me up, I was so glad I had brought my family, and even though we were were displaced 800 miles from home in a hotel room, we were together, and we weren’t in D.C. My good friend was at Cantor Fitzgerald the week before doing consulting, but had decided at the last minute to take some consulting work back in D.C. and not return to New York that week, and his life was spared, while all the people he had worked with that previous week perished. My best friend’s wife was in the Pentagon on Spetember 11th, though she was luckily on the other side of the massive building and felt only a vibration when the plane hit.
We made it home safe by driving our rental car to D.C. My product, which was not ever really launched and hit the market when companies were paralyzed, was ultimately a financial failure. But it was a small price to pay to be safe and sound. A year before, I had stood at the window of the World Trade Center in the Cantor Fitzgerald office, looking out over New York, standing at the exact spot that the plane hit the building. It makes me think how only a twist of fate can bring us happiness or great misfortune.
Since that time we’ve seen hysteria and paranoia and the erosion of our personal freedoms in this country. More people now would like to see the press have less freedom, and would gladly accept less freedom for themselves in exchange for a little more safety, or even the perception of safety. Greedy people bellied up to the table in Washington to exploit the crisis for a handout. Even though the immediate aftermath of the attacks brought out the very best in people, with heroic deeds and noble sacrifice, the long-term aftermath has just as much brought out the worst in us, with cynical opportunism, political maneuvering, and exploiting the people’s emotions for personal gain.
After this year, I hope there are no large-scale commemorations of the events of September 11th. Like all great tragedies, it should be remembered, but not ostentatiously commemorated or celebrated. Today, let’s remember, and let’s try to move on from this and make the world a better place. I believe that that’s the best way we can honor the memories of the people who died that day, and it’s the best way to make sure that the people who planned and executed that villainous attack will have ultimately failed to achieve their goal.
Nowadays,
everyone is suppose to speak english, much better.
Nowadays, US is going to attack Irack just to get its petrol reserv, just as US attack afghanistan to take control over the caspian petrol road, if it was just to avange the 9/11’s victims, I’m sure they could kill Oussama ben laden, just as Al queida did to kill Massoud commander.
Why did they bring all the Us army to take control on an entire country made of stones and mountain ?
It’s only a matter of energy control and way of getting it.
American people just don’t know how to think.
in france we have a proverb
“la dictature c’est ferme ta gueule
la democratie c’est cause toujours”
(dictature is “shut up”
democraty is “keep talking” (or talk to my ass)”
“The Matrix is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.” – Morpheus
You can watch your television and read the mainstream news for the blue pill.
Or you can start clicking, reading, and thinking. And free your mind.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
http://www.bushnews.com
http://www.jihadunspun.com
http://www.thememoryhole.org
http://www.disinfo.com
http://www.indymedia.org
http://www.statewatch.org
http://208.187.163.46/completetimeline/index.htm
http://www.opensecrets.org/index.asp
http://www.unansweredquestions.org
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/high_resol…
http://www.freespeech.org
http://globalresearch.ca
http://emperors-clothes.com
http://www.mathaba.net
http://cryptome.org
http://www.newswithviews.com/patriot/patriotism5.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul52.html
http://www.smirkingchimp.com
http://www.commondreams.org
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/remember.html
Lastly, a moment of silence and sadness for all the people, from all countries, who have perished due to terrorism and war.
And especially on this day, for the Americans who died a year ago, September 11, 2001. Let us honor our brothers and sisters. They gave their lives for something greater than themselves. Let us be grateful for their sacrifice and never falter in our defense of the freedoms and morality that make America a great nation.
—
“A bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular; and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inferences.”
Thomas Jefferson, founding father of America
> Yes, let us also remember that America is the only country
> to have used Nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, chosen
> apparantly because of their large populations. Let us mark
> the day that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed too.
I hope you don’t intend to imply (as so many have tried) the
‘Great Evil’ of the US in using the atomic bomb to end the
second world war. This is not ment to disparage the original
author (about which I know nothing), but today’s Politically
Correct generation should try reading history books, instead
of rewriting them to their liking.
Let us not forget the context of the usage of those weapons.
Remember Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Saipan,
Bougainville, Makin and Tarawa? The US war planners
were looking at an invasion of Japan, like the one in
Europe, scheduled for late 1946. After seeing the body count
in the South Pacific theater, estimates for the invasion
went as high as several hundred thousand Allied casualties
and Japanese casualties in the millions. They chose the
lesser of two evils. It’s all too easy to look back almost
60 years after the fact, from the comfort of our easy chairs,
and criticize those decisions. Thankfully, no one has had
to make similar decisions since then.
He who rises up to kill us…. We will preemt it and kill him first!
PRAX, USA
I just found this at The Daily Mirror:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12188969&met…
SHAME ON YOU AMERICAN-HATING LIBERALS
Tony Parsons
ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting – the mass murder of thousands, live on television.
As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot’s mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.
An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing – nobody deserves this fate.
Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.
But to the world’s eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America’s comeuppance.
Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.
There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country – too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans – but it has become an epidemic.
And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.
America is this country’s greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood.
A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon?
And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children – not just Americans, but from dozens of countries – were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?
What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognised them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody’s son and somebody’s daughter, husbands and wives. And children. Some unborn.
And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?
These days you don’t have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.
The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world’s only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.
The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.
Remember, remember.
Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, “I love you,” before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.
Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum. Remember, remember – and realise that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.
So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex.
So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.
AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn’t is a sign of strength.
American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq – that’s what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute’s silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?
When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that – and didn’t push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a “war on terrorism”. A real war.
The fundamentalist dudes are talking about “opening the gates of hell”, if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn’t believe.
The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth.
The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.
But don’t blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand – assuming you haven’t had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.
I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush’s poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be – rich, free, strong, open, optimistic.
Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.
Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers.
Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper.
And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein.
Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange centre, oh mighty one!
Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.
No, do more than remember. Never forget.
PRAX, i would put it to you that after a historical analysis of conflicts involving the US, you would find that the US forces did not do well at all when their technology and weapons were placed outside their area of intended use.
I would appeal to your lower instincts (and you appear to be well endowed in that region) by suggesting that person-to-person, the US forces would suffer severe trauma to their posteriors. Face it – US soldiers would much rather be chewing gum, watching TV and eating doughnuts. Why? Because they have nothing worth defending.
I fear that nothing external will crush the US Empire… so i wait patiently for the US empire to crumble from within, rotting from complaceny and obesity. Like so manty empires before it.
“but today’s Politically
Correct generation should try reading history books, instead
of rewriting them to their liking”
Well said. They should also condemn all violent death. For example, FARC’s idiotic campaign in colombia has killed tens of thousands of people. It is back by poeple poking their noses (to quote C) in other peoples business. Who is helping finance and TRAin FARC? Cuba. There are also reports that ETA (the basque terrorist group that escapes spanish authority by going to france) and the IRA are helping train them. There are reports that Chavez of venezuela is helping. Yet no complaints in this group about cuba. None about russia. None about serbia (who russia supported by the way). None about china, none about N. Korea (want a ballistic missile or nuclear bomb we’ll help) None about packistan, NOne about india. None about iraq, None about Sudan. None about Iran. None about Somalia….etc.
To all of you US Bashers. STop being hypocrits. All violent death is wrong and none of it should be ignored. If you want to stand up against wrongs then be consistent. If you just point out US wrongs then you are demonstrating your true motives which are not altruism.
ryan, are you saying that the US does not shirk from violent death as a means to its own ends?
I happen to have very strong political views that here in the USA are called “radical” (for reasons unknown to me, since to me they are just rational, but this is irrelevant now), but fra from being please, i was among those very disappointed to see this news posted here.
I is indeed sad that neither the poster of the message nor the editors here could see that posting such a news topic here would offend by itself many poeple (and i was one of them) and that the hurt reaction of those who took offense would in turn offend and hurt those (not only americans) that felt brutalized by the attacks, even if they were so lucky as not to loose any person dear to them.
I know for sure the editors of this site are not cynics that are ready do anything to get more contacts a day, but this only makes the whole thing worse, in a sense.
What did you expect by posting this message? Could you really not see all the useless pain and offense that the following discussion would have created? It was so easy to predict …
I read this thread very carefully, and the discussion was exactly as superficial, emotional and (at times) offensive as I had imagined. Nothing so low as the discussion going on in political newsgroups, of course, but not far from it in content, if not in aggressive language.
Everything so predictable, I could have written half the messages myself, almost word by word: the american atrocities, the USA only source of freedom, hiroshima, the holocaust .. everything.
The sad fact is we are deeply divided: most americans do not understand at all why can somone hate us so much, and we do not even try to discover why. Who cares where the attackers came from and what they thought? And why should we try to understand them at all when it is so easy to call them terrorists and fanatics, as if they were aliens from outer space? But the really worrying fact is that even when we have the will to honestly discover why, we find we do not have the knowledge, the information to do so. Many intelligent, informed, poeple (including the president) are deeply convinced the situation in Israel/Palestine has nothing to do with the attacks, and that the crisis in the middle east can go on without any repercassion on the “war on terror”. The fact that hundreds of millions of mulsims and arabs feel otherwise about the issue is immaterial, it seems.
On the other hand, the non-americans here feel flabbergasted that such a tragedy makes the front pages the world over, and feel their own tragedies are forgotten. When these tragedies are much worse than any average american can imagine(even after 9-11), and when they think the USA allowed those tragedies to happen, then you begin to feel all these celebrations as an insult, a statement that their deads are remembered and vindicated, but your deads are nothing.
Many people here did make an effort to be civil and factual, but that did not lead the whole discussion anywhere. The fact is that we live in a completely de-ideologized and de-politiczed time, where not even the idea of social and politival confrontation or discussion or struggle is possible. Which does not mean that confrontation and struggle do no longer exist, of course, but only that we cannot take part in it as free individuals, aware of the situation, and responsible of our choices.
it is all very sad …
I am saying if you are truly against violence then stand up against all wrongs, stand up against all violence and yes that includes violence from the US.
But no one is this group (other the obviously US-based) is willing to look at violence unless it is somehow connected to the US. I already know, they’ll say the US kills more people. BS! BS! BS! Look at the problems in kashmir and throughout india and packistan. Look at the civil wars in africa and in colombia. Look the chinese governments crusades and those of russia in Chechyna. Look at ETA in spain. Look at the treatment of the Kurds by just about every arab/muslim country (thinking iraq and turkey). Look at who is making things worse in israel (sharon is the standard line but what about support for hamas and hezbollah by Sryia, iran, etc. Oh and by the way, those children in iraq are dying because saddam diverts funds intended for those children by the various UN oil for food/medicine programs for weapons systems from places like china. Saadaam is happy to let those children die because it is good publicity, which is about as sick as it comes.
Or in other words be consistent and thorough instead of just uniformily singling out the US and letting all other wrongs go without notice. If you truly care about wrongs then you’d see it all but most of the US-bashers have a serious case of tunnel vision.
Thanks. As one American, I really appreciate your kind,
thoughtful words, the support of Prime Minister Blair and
the people of the UK. Sometimes, I get a little sick of
seeing the U.S. being kicked in the teeth for everything
that happens around the world. When you can’t even send
food to people without them getting mad at you, I’d say
it’s time to cut the foreign aid to a trickle. Send help
to the people who appreciate it. Leave the rest alone.
First of all my compassion to all the victims of 9/11.
Beeing an european i might have a different look on US than you will have. I rather like the americans and i’m very grateful that they liftet the dust from good old conservative europe after WW-II. Especially my country (coming from austria) was gently turned to “modern” live by adopting the american way of live in some way.
But US politics are dirty, at least sometimes. This fabulous “desert storm operation” was aimed at the oil. Period. And several of those “anti-comunism-actions” were at least questionable. But europe is no better at all or china on india or ..! Do you really think they act differenty. Wake up! If it comes to real power things get dirty regardles of the nation concerned. It applies almost everywhere. Let me put it in blunt words. America is big so its dropplings are big too. But the smaller ones also stink.
Resumee:
Dont be naive! We, the citizens in the western world share a good living because of exploiting the weakness of the third world by letting the politics do the dirt-work. And we are not universally loved due to that fact.
null, is it I who am bereft of intelligence? You think peace is always achieved bu eliminating those who are against it? Well, it depends on what kind of peace you’re talking about. The Pax Romana was enforced peace – is that what you’re speaking of? Have you ever heard of Ghandi? Of Martin Luther king, Jr.? I don’t think you have the slightest idea of what you’re talking about.
How do any of those people have anything to do with powermad dictators? With the situations that existed in Afghanistan and presently exist in Iraq? Somehow I do not think that Saddam will stop researching nuclear weapons if we all refuse to sit on the back of Iraqi buses like Rosa Parks. Can you mention an example that is relevant to my argument?
I am getting to be old – I was in a nasty little war in Southeast Asia and I saw what war is and what it does. It is not the way.
How does being in one war qualify you to make such an absolute statement? War is not the way? What should we have done with Hitler? And why wouldn’t taking out Hitler as soon as he broke his treaty obligations have prevented World War II? You do not seem to understand that war is a last resort used to protect freedom and prevent future destruction.
I suppose I will never understand why pacifists view anyone who does not agree that all war is a evil not-very-nice thingy as a little runny-nosed kid who sits around playing Quake all day on his Pop’s PC.
Empower the UN.
The UN is about as effective as a bunch of sputtering firecrackers, and I do not think that either America or Russia will assent to bend over and let themselves be spanked by the UN. Frankly, American policy decisions should be dealt with in American elections by having an informed and educated populace.
It’s sad that someone thought that flying planes into the twin towers was a good idea.
It’s sad that the USA leadership does not understand why that happened.
The US leadership understands exactly why that happened. Oppressive dictators blame America for their problems and indoctrine their people via their absolute control over the educational system. What is sad is that the Arab leaders understand the problem, yet they do nothing to eliminate it.
(Well, null, what else did you expect the people to do when their leaders keep screaming, “Death to the heretics!” all over the public radio. Send us flowers?)
American people just don’t know how to think.
*falls off chair laughing*
It’s all too easy to look back almost 60 years after the fact, from the comfort of our easy chairs, and criticize those decisions. Thankfully, no one has had
to make similar decisions since then.
Damn right! Why is it that we only hear of the deaths that occurred, not the ones they prevented?
ryan, are you saying that the US does not shirk from violent death as a means to its own ends?
No, of course not. However, our violent deaths prevent many more violent deaths. There is some sense in killing a minority of people who desire to take over the world, which Hitler demonstrated. Too bad that Europe ignored the problem until they were pushed off the continent, but they did turn around and help out *after* all those millions of lives were lost. I suppose we should be grateful for *that*, at least.
in this century history was always written by the usa and another community (.).
so don’t believe what you see on tv!
Americans stop making a saint of your army and its acts. Your army isn’t any more good or any more moral than the armies you denounce evil. If the US army has its hands clean, why did the US renounced the world court treaty? And don’t tell me that when the US army comits war crimes it does that for the good of humanity.
Probably you haven’t heard of the news at all, so read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1970312.stm
I find this whole discussion rather sad.
What have Americans done to deserve all this jealousy and hatred.
And I am ashamed of the Europeans on here. We share so much with America, language, history, customs. Most Americans are just emigrated Europeans who have made thier country successful.
Shouldn’t we be saving this hatred for the dictator’s and religious fanatics around the world.
About the only thing I can agree on is that moslems do appear to be stuck in the past. They need to modernise and start working towards making their own countries and communities happy and wealthy rather than picking on rich successful countries (who incidentally got rich by nothing more special than hard work and commitment) In a nutshell don’t blame us that you are backward and poor. Sort your problems out and then we will start taking you seriously.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859843980/
Reading this may give you a hint why the world dislikes the US as a country. With supporting and protecting such scum, you won’t ever gain any respect as a nation.
In response to:
I would appeal to your lower instincts (and you appear to be well endowed in that region) by suggesting that person-to-person, the US forces would suffer severe trauma to their posteriors. Face it – US soldiers would much rather be chewing gum, watching TV and eating doughnuts. Why? Because they have nothing worth defending.
Thanks for the insults Allende. All I have to say to you is: Come to the USA and attack us. I am not a soldier, but I will be on the FRONT LINES shooting at you!
PRAX
null, that is why peace is difficult and hard rather than the easy road. You can not even imagine it.
PRAX, have you ever wondered which is the only nation on this globe that has its flag burned somewhere every single day of the year?
And have you asked why this might be the case?
“PRAX, have you ever wondered which is the only nation on this globe that has its flag burned somewhere every single day of the year?
And have you asked why this might be the case?’
Jealousy?
Allende:
Jealousy knows no bounds
We make the F-22 Raptor for people with your mindset
http://www.f-22raptor.com/
PRAX
“Americans stop making a saint of your army and its acts. Your army isn’t any more good or any more moral than the armies you denounce evil. If the US army has its hands clean, why did the US renounced the world court treaty? And don’t tell me that when the US army comits war crimes it does that for the good of humanity.”
Why would the us allow a bunch of envious, anti-US, hate mongers to cast judgement on its soldiers? It should not and i hope it does not. What a joke. China, russian, france and Iran are going to cast judgement on US soldiers. No way. Veto it again just for emphasis.
Right on Ryan. The UN is good for nothing!
PRAX
Yeah, right. They are wimps when it comes judging your sins, they are fine when they are to judge eg Milocevic’s sins. US insisted on arresting Milocevic and sending him to international trial. What a hipocrisy!
If you think that the international court are a bunch of wimps, you shouldn’t have send anyone there. But what US seems to want is to have an international court under its commands, not an independent one.
And with what accusations would China and France send your so inocent soldiers to a trial? I can’t remember any harm done by the US army. Or are they gonna set up a story to trap your soldiers? Just like you set up stories to set up Iraqi soldiers?
I am an American. On my fathers side, my ancestors were Irish, and fled the poverty and repression rife in Ireland in the early 1900’s. On my mother’s side, my family is French. They came to America, by way of Canada, where the first of our line on this continent helped to establish the french presence in the New World by founding the city of Montreal in the 1600’s.
I am proud that I am descended from hard working Irish, who were looking for a better life for their sons and daughters. I am proud to be descended from a courageous adventurous Frenchman, who came to an untamed land with the intention of taming it.
I am proud that my maternal great-grandfather got to return to the land of his ancestors in 1917, albeit in a trench, to defend it from the Germans, as an American. I am proud that in the 1940’s my paternal grandfather was stationed in the country of those who had oppressed and starved his father, and defended it from attack by the Germans, and helped liberate the land of my maternal ancestry.
On Semptember 11, 2002, I was proud of my countrymen, who no matter what their race, or creed, or color – stopped what they were doing, and helped as little or as much as they could. I am proud that I was able to give blood 1500 miles away to help.
What the rest of the world fails to realize is that though we may seem fractured and seperated from each other by race or class or religion, when our country truly needs us we are one. Nowhere in the world has such unity of mind and purpose ever appeared – not in Ancient Greece, or Rome, or China. Not even in the British Empire.
When we are truly united, and we have a “job” to do – you can be sure it will be done, be done quickly, and be done right. And, with the anti-American sentiment of the rest of the world, you had best hope that the “job” need not be done to you. Americans are quick to forgive, but we do not forget. You would do well to hope that we have “forgiven” you in your nation’s next time of trouble, lest we “forget” you.
It’ a pity what the world’s opinion of America has become. Perhaps we should follow the wisdom of our first President and “avoid foreign entanglements”. We could watch the decay of the world from the comfort and safety of our living rooms, in front of our big screen TV’s, wasting food and water.
the us is a sovereign nations that needs to plan is actions according its own interests without sujecting its soldiers to the whinnning and envious UN member cry babies.
if this os news group is at all indicative of people outside the US then it is fairly obvious that US soldiers will be guilty before falsely proven guilty for media hype.
Oh and i dont agree with the US actions against Milocevic. I beleive he should have been dealt with by his own country men not by the UN. I find it ridiculous that anyone in the UN, the US or the EU ( all have blood on their hands) would be bold enough to cast judgement on anyone.
Right on Ryan. The UN is good for nothing!
Yeah, right. Who needs a UN that criticises our actions? Screw them! Screw the UN supported Kyoto pact! Screw them all! Screw those stupid Europeans who look like incarnations of Mohandas Ghandi!
Kill-kill-kill!
learn to read please.
I supported the actions to stop serbia. I support the Kyoto agreement. I don’t support war with iraq (though have no problem with taking out sadaam).
What i don’t support is the hypocrisy of the US, the UN and the EU casting judgement on milosevic. I don’t see why the winning murderers get to cast judgement on the losing ones. Read the note. Milosevic should be dealt with by his own.
Reading this may give you a hint why the world dislikes the US as a country. With supporting and protecting such scum, you won’t ever gain any respect as a nation.
That just shows how narrow minded and small you are. Kill Americans because Henry Kissinger was a bad man. You are pathetic.
Nobody ever said that the US doesn’t have wicked people in it. They do. We also have our share of morons; the dumbest of which have migrated into congress and the senate. The difference is that most muslims can’t grasp the concept that one American (or even a handfull) doesn’t equal all Americans. You act like we go through society and hand pick these people to be our leaders. That isn’t how it works (especially now).
Regardless of the process of our government, most muslims are narrow minded drones who believe all kinds of propaganda spoon fed to them; which propaganda is molded to cause hatred for America (in much the same way, I imagine, Hitler stirred up his people to hate and eventually kill six million Jews).
To give an example, on September 11, 2001, I worked with a staunch muslim from Egypt. When I arrived at work, I didn’t throw rocks at him. I didn’t push him down the stairs. I didn’t kidnap him and tourture him to death. I treated him just as I always had. As a friend.
Most muslims on the other hand (and this is proved I think by many of the obvious muslim posts) would be happy to grab the first white guy they could find and do all of the above, and more, to exact revenge for the purported “evil” of America. I don’t know, perhaps a certain reporter who was killed last year might come to mind.
What i don’t support is the hypocrisy of the US, the UN and the EU casting judgement on milosevic. I don’t see why the winning murderers get to cast judgement on the losing ones. Read the note. Milosevic should be dealt with by his own.
So what you are saying is that you don’t understand why wicked people can pass judgement on other wicked people. I think everyone is wicked to some level. Nobody is perfect. By your logic, all evil should go unpunished. I disagree.
The Kyoto treaty is a joke. So are all environmentalists.
“The rain forest will be gone…” Have you ever flown over the damn thing? It’s bigger than the entire US and satelite photos show it is NOT deminishing.
“Humans are causing global warming…” Studies have shown the biggest contributor to global warming is carbon dioxide. If you want it lowered, I suggest all the environmentalists ante up to the cause and stop breathing. Try it for a year and tell us if you notice an improvement.
the Kyoto treaty is a grab for power; nothing else. Fortunately the US has a leader right now who is bright enough not to fall for it. I can only imagine what would have happened if Cardboard Cutout had won the last election. Ugh!
“Screw those stupid Europeans who look like incarnations of Mohandas Ghandi!”
Do you mean the ones who were running the concentration camps in Yugoslavia? Do you mean Europeans like Le Pen, like Franco, like Mussolini, like Hitler, like Lenin, etc, etc, etc??? Or do you mean the voters who supported them?
OOOPS! They must have all been Americans!!!! Thank you Mourga for enlightening us all.
I can only imagine what would have happened if Cardboard Cutout had won the last election. Ugh
Lol: Camel
I hope that guy doesn’t run again What a loser!
PRAX
Kill Americans because Henry Kissinger was a bad man.
Never said that. I just said that people like Henry Kissinger make US look evil to the rest of the world. This is the US as a country, not the American citizen as an individual. American citizens must act again their share of morons. I truly believe that Americans are good people as individual. But giving power to such scum makes them look evil as a whole.
“Do you mean the ones who were running the concentration camps in Yugoslavia? Do you mean Europeans like Le Pen, like Franco, like Mussolini, like Hitler, like Lenin, etc, etc, etc??? Or do you mean the voters who supported them?”
All of them have been taken care of. Today Europe talks about peace. Why don’t you take care of your war mongers and talk about peace too?
Also you must confuse Lenin with Stalin. Unless you mean the old joke “all comunists are evil”.
Americans stop making a saint of your army and its acts. Your army isn’t any more good or any more moral than the armies you denounce evil. If the US army has its hands clean, why did the US renounced the world court treaty? And don’t tell me that when the US army comits war crimes it does that for the good of humanity.
Maybe we would stop making a saint out of our army if we knew how we were doing it.
What have Americans done to deserve all this jealousy and hatred.
We exist.
null, that is why peace is difficult and hard rather than the easy road. You can not even imagine it.
Jay, that is why peace is difficult and hard rather than the easy road. You cannot even imagine it. Do you really think that parading around on a white horse championing pacifism is going to stop those chemical and biological weapons from being used against us?
Yeah, right. They are wimps when it comes judging your sins, they are fine when they are to judge eg Milocevic’s sins. US insisted on arresting Milocevic and sending him to international trial. What a hipocrisy!
The UN talks. And talks. And talks and talks and talks. And talks and talks and talks and talks and talks and talks. And talks and talks and talks and talks and talks and talks and talks. But they never *do* anything unless the US threatens to do it for them.
The UN wants to ask Saddam to comply with UN resolutions that the UN is supposed to enforce. Saddam will accept, just like he has done in the past; then he will kick the inspectors out, just like he has done in the past; then the UN will ask Saddam to comply, just as they have done in the past; then Saddam will refuse, just as he has done in the past; then America will threaten to enforce the resolutions, just as it has done in the past; then the UN and the international community will help out, just as they have done in the past; then the UN will tell the US to pull out and ask Saddam to comply with the resolutions which he simply will not do, just as he has done in the past.
How many times must this cycle of incompetence and meaningless resolutions that will never be enforced continue before you bumbling idiots realize that Saddam must go?
Peace Sells… But Who’s Buying?
Megadeth – 1986
PRAX
Think about this…
Does Microsoft evil?…
Everybody know about MS Monopolistic actions, the Computer Manufacturers Threats and presures to prevent they to sell computers with other OS than Microsoft ones or Whitout any installed.
Oviously Mocrosoft’s practices prevent the free commerce modeling, forcing to do what it whant’s.
Thing about Be’s trial against Microsoft, The BeUnited settlement and all other trying to stop Microsoft bad practices. The states in trial against Microsoft can’t stop it, MS money, power and influence overpass the justice (in a “free and justice country” ). Why? Economic Benefits.
Look at this. Windows as OS look’s great, is easy and everybody knows about it. But really it work’s bad, doesn’t like at all, etc. There are too much ways to do the things better, but it’s hard to leave MS products. Al the enviroment third parties and hardware vendors may be compatible with MS and agree at it’s practices because it’s necesarely to survive in computer market.
I bought a computer with Windows 98 preinstalled, I didn’t want it, but the seller fear penalties if they sell Computer without MS Windows Preinstalled software. ¿Where are my costumer selection right? ¿What I can do if it’s the computer I want?
MS have access at opensourced code and can use at it’s own becouse we can’t know if they are using these code.
Any OS that want’s growth has to fight against MS and it’s Power and control, and MS does anything to kill it. It could be a exceptional OS, but MS never leave it grow.
Here (in Guatemala) the MS Windows XP home edition (internet activated) Retail price is 110US$ (OEM). If our minimun “obligatory” salary are equivalent to “90 US$” and the average efective income per capita is around 60 US$, How do you think that we can progress, if when we do something good for our country you revert it “because it’s protecting its own self interest”?
Microsoft and the “BSA” are in “Witch Hunt” here, in my country, Taking off our computers looking for any licence agreement violation, and all that they do.
And now think about this,
How BeOS or other product can grow if MS doesn’t permit it.
In this OS worl MS act as the US on the Human World.
How any little country can grow if US doesn’t permit.
Listen people I’m just going to stop caring you hate us americans god damn what the fuck is wrong with you did you not read my post, all you do is attack us how about I hate you huh??? Just look at the UK they don’t hate us so what are they>? evil now? how about you just fuck off and leave us alone and thanks to all the UK love, I guess it just shows you who your real friends are and if I ever meet any of you fuckers I’m going to punch you in the face
null, I have to be honest – I cannot claim to be a pacifist. I wish I could, but I have not reached those heights <g>. All I can claim is to have seen the horrible fruits of war and the desire to avoid it unless there is absolutely no other option. The thing that especially concerns me is that we are in this new, post-cold war world where the things that were achieved with the old Soviet Union like “balance of power” don’t apply anymore. There has not really been time for a “world view” to develop and a basic plan of action – and a consensus among nations about what to do with lunatics who could have access to weapons of mass destruction and have shown in the past they are crazy enough to possibly use them. The USA, being the superpower, obviously is looked to be the leader. For example, I am very concerned about secondary effects if the US takes Saddam out…what ripple effect will occur in the region? This morning, in addressing the U.N., Bush did not speak to these things. Ah well, it is a new world with many dangerous places and lots of mistakes out there waiting to be made. But, I admit, one of those potential mistakes could be not doing anything. Nobody knows for sure.
As this wild discussion winds down, the power of feeling regarding the USA and other issues has really had a deep affect on me. In that sense, I’m glad there was this discussion. OSNews posters never hold back <g>. It has forced me to examine and take into consideration the viewpoints of others. Thank you!
> — Hiroshima: at least 300.000 people dead because the usa
> could not wait a couple of weeks to win the war.
>
> — Nagasaki: at least 300.000 dead because the usa could
> not wait a couple of weeks to win the war.
Not according to this:
http://www.csi.ad.jp/ABOMB/
Hiroshima: between 180,000 to 200,000
Nagasaki: between 70,000 to 80,000
“…because the usa could not wait a couple of weeks to
win the war.”?
Evidently, you’ve not looked up the casualties lists in
the Pacific theater either. The Japanese had a philosophy
of death before surrender, fight to the last man.
Battle of Tarawa: 4,718 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Guadalcanal: 14,800 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Iwo Jima: 20,000 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Saipan: 31,000 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Bougainville: 41,000 Japanese soldiers killed.
Battle of Okinawa: 107,539 Japanese soldiers killed.
This alone accounts for almost 220,000 men and is by no
means a comprehensive list. These casualties were for tiny
specks of land in the middle of the ocean. Can you imagine
the number of dead in an invasion of the Japanese homeland?
No sir, the war wouldn’t have been won in a “couple of
weeks.”
I don’t believe the moral “holier-than-thou’s” today have
a clue of what was actually happening back then, or why people came to the decisions they did.
Is it really jealosy?
If it was jealosy of ‘freedom’ wouln’t they have attacked the netherlands instead?
If it was jeaslosy of ‘wealth’ wouldn’t they have attacked switzerland?
If it was jealosy of technology, wouldn’t they have attacked japan?
Think about it… They hate you because of your actions. Your foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?
Actually, that is a poor analogy. Does Microsoft give billions of dollars each year to it competition. The US does. Does Microsoft help it’s competition to gain equipment? The US does (i.e. food donations). Does Microsoft lend it’s competition workers when they need aid? The US does (i.e. Peace Core, firemen, rescue workers, etc.).
Is this the most posts an article has recieved on OSNews (I know the trothless “Greeks are Stupid” article was close).
> Think about it… They hate you because of your actions. Your > foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples
> countries, and the terrorists will go home?
You mean stop supporting Isarel, or anyone else the terrorist
would like to wipe off the face of the Earth?
hmm looks like it. Nothing like 1000 year old problems to bring out the weirdos
“Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?”
You mean give other nations billions each year in foreign aid, but not attempt to influence it’s use? There’s the problem. Everyone seems to want it both ways. Give us money, food, equipment, technology, then mind your own business.
The Greek thread hit the limit as this one is about to do, I think <g>.
“Think about it… They hate you because of your actions. Your foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?”
The terrorists represent the last front of a deeply fundamental conservative religion that is being threatened by westernized values. They are the last hold out of a way of life that is far from modern. They loathe our culture and everything about us. The muslim world, which has never gone through a reform or modernization, is now surrounded by liberalized western values and society. Some members of this world have taken to fundamentalism to fight off that change and westernization. This is not new. its roots go back at least 100 years and are quite pronounced after WWII when the arab states become independent. At that time, pro western rulers tried to embark on rapid westernization. Resistance occurred then as now.
They won’t go away regardless of our policy. What they hate is far deeper than just our policy it is the fabric of our society, our culture, and values and its influence. Change your policy for better and they’ll find another reason to hate you. The US is on the top of the hate list but Europe is probably number 2 with Russia at number 3. Europe is not immune to this so be careful what you say. You will be on the receiving end of islamic terrorism. It is just a matter of time.
I’m not done talking to you anti-american people
In response to:
“Think about it… They hate you because of your actions. Your foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?”
Hey Hmmm.
Nobody wants to fight the “little guy”! What would that prove?
We the (USA) are always the target when other peoples shiznit don’t work out! People/Terrorist will always “find” “their reason” for doing anything! Don’t you forget that!
PRAX, USA
> Is this the most posts an article has recieved on OSNews
The record is 281 comments.
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=1620
he he time to break a record eh?
Is it really jealosy?
No, as I said in an earlier post, I think that they are doing the same thing as Hitler did 60 years ago. Only American’s are the ones being demonized for the most part; although the Jews are still mixed in there somehow.
By demonizing another group of people, the peckers they have for leaders in the Middle East are able to rally support for themselves from everyone under them. This makes them rich and powerful.
I think that is mostly what it is. It may also be that they think America is run by Jews and supports the Jews and they hate them for whatever reason.
Think about it… They hate you because of your actions. Your foreign policy. Stop messing about with other peoples countries, and the terrorists will go home?
I sincerely think this is an excuse, not a reason.
null, I have to be honest – I cannot claim to be a pacifist. I wish I could, but I have not reached those heights <g>. All I can claim is to have seen the horrible fruits of war and the desire to avoid it unless there is absolutely no other option.
If you do not believe that all war is evil, then I agree with that much. I myself said that war is a last resort – how does that make me incapable of imagining a peaceful world? I’m not exactly like that hick sheriff in the James Bond movies, you know! 😉
The thing that especially concerns me is that we are in this new, post-cold war world where the things that were achieved with the old Soviet Union like “balance of power” don’t apply anymore. There has not really been time for a “world view” to develop and a basic plan of action – and a consensus among nations about what to do with lunatics who could have access to weapons of mass destruction and have shown in the past they are crazy enough to possibly use them.
Weapons of mass destruction in the modern world are at least roughly equivalent to massive armies in the pre-atomic era, and dictators today are also roughly equivalent. Such rulers still use genocide, propaganda, terrorism, starvation, and poverty to control their people. There is little hope that a rebellion will oust these people from power, and even less that the replacements installed by the leaders of the revolutions will be any better. American attempts to influence the outcomes of these revolutions through the sale of arms and other supplies have not produced stable governments. The only way to remove these oppressive regimes from power is through the use of force from the outside.
The problem is that weapons of mass destruction are even more dangerous than the armies commanded by Hitler in World War II. A dictator who acquires a few nuclear warheads without disclosing their exact location could effectively hold the US for ransom. One ICBM or SLBM could be launched and less than thirty minutes later millions of Americans would be dead. We have no means of shooting down or reprogramming these missiles once they are launched, nor could the target city or cities be evacuated in such short notice.
We *must* prevent people who would like to see millions of Americans dead from acquiring such weapons. It is not an option.
The USA, being the superpower, obviously is looked to be the leader.
By whom? The people who continually post ridiculous anti-American crud whenever the US is mentioned? Or our allies which happen to be quite few?
For example, I am very concerned about secondary effects if the US takes Saddam out…what ripple effect will occur in the region?
The problem with ousting a dictator is that the people of that nation have been fed on propaganda. In Arab states, this translates into a hatred of all things American. But you must also remember that we do have an excellent record of establishing stable, peaceful, and productive democracies – after we win the wars. If instead we simply keep our troops in there to be shot at indefinitely, we have failed – consistently. I am not worried about how the new government of Iraq will do because I am confident that we can win such a war.
As for the other nations in the region, once Iraq is defeated, I believe that they will quickly become compliant with our idea of peace. If they take advantage of the opportunity to launch military strikes, they will have to answer to us and our allies, which at that point are already in the region and have already proven effective against Saddam. When we do decide to use force, the stability of the region depends on a decisive victory.
This morning, in addressing the U.N., Bush did not speak to these things. Ah well, it is a new world with many dangerous places and lots of mistakes out there waiting to be made.
I dislike pointing this out, and I am not attempting to blame the Democratic party itself for this, but the presidents who have instituted the most horrible military failures in American history are liberal Democrats. The Bush Administration is well aware of the problems that led to Vietnam, and they have no intention of repeating the mistakes. We do not take the use of force lightly, but when the military is called upon its purpose is to fight and win wars. To take territory. To fight back at those who attack them. To eliminate their opponents ability to retaliate.
But, I admit, one of those potential mistakes could be not doing anything. Nobody knows for sure.
If Saddam and other terrorist states are attempting to acquire weapons of mass destruction, then not acting would be catastrophic. I am not saying that we must rush into a decision or that this always means war, but we cannot rely on meaningless UN resolutions to prevent these people from acquiring such weapons. The UN has had ten years to enforce its resolutions, and they have done nothing. People speak of containing Saddam and keeping him in a box – what box? What is containment if he can freely violate the rules, leaving us without any way to monitor his supposed commitment to peace?
And how, exactly, are we supposed to force Saddam to comply with these resolutions without the use of force?
As this wild discussion winds down, the power of feeling regarding the USA and other issues has really had a deep affect on me. In that sense, I’m glad there was this discussion. OSNews posters never hold back <g>. It has forced me to examine and take into consideration the viewpoints of others. Thank you!
Hmm…I found out much about anti-American sentiment as well. What do you think of the US state department creating an online forum where these matters can be discussed without descending into personal attacks?
By demonizing another group of people, the peckers they have for leaders in the Middle East are able to rally support for themselves from everyone under them. This makes them rich and powerful.
…and it also gives them a way to explain why their people remain poor and ignorant.
The record is 281 comments.
Mozilla is more important than the war on terror?! j/k :0
Zealot:
You can be sure that if helping in some way at it’s competitors benefit Microsoft, it will.
US does that contribution because acomplish with determinates benefits. Also do that when politicaly carrie some advantage. Many of this is only to shut up.
Hey buddy, don’t be angry with me. Don’t missunderstand we aren’t here to fight. It’s only than nobody will talk bad about theire own home. And I understand you. The fact is the attitude. You live good, have food, study, opportunities and a future. In other parts around the world the live is hardest, and your country doesn’t do more easy. You live good, and you have to give thanks to your nation, but isn’t the case with all us here out of your country.
But better than donate USA could truly help if they don’t truncate our activities, not interfering when they aren’t welcome. As you may know the CIA is present at all the world constantly evaluating what things are bad for USA. It violate the liberty sobereignty of any country intervened. Some unclassified documents shows how the CIA dirty act in other countries.
¿How you feel now about having extranges at home?
¿Do you understand why is ugly have extranges trying to change your country?
¿Do you feel now our pain when you invade our home?
We live that everyday. The diference is that you aren’t custom. You’re also an invader, my little country can’t defend itself. ¿Do you thing whe will invade you?
But you can’t undertand me, you don’t live here, or better: “You don’t live out there”. If you had born outside may be you understand what and why all other people outside USA in this forum has a diferent point of view than you.
I don’t agree the agression of 9/11, It’s incorrect in any point of view, only desire that you understand now how you make us feel fear
…and it also gives them a way to explain why their people remain poor and ignorant.
That is very true.
null, I should not have said you cannot imagine a peaceful world. That was foolish of me – how do I know what you can imagine? <g>
No matter what I think, there does seem to be war in the air.
I thought the message limit was 250 – I think that’s where the Greece thread stopped and I thought that was it. :::sigh::: I wish we had a world where the most urgent matters were discussing Mac processors, Microsoft, Linux and OBOS…time to go look at SuSE 8.1 🙂
I took the limit out about 3 days ago, after some people emailed that they wanted it out. We had put the limit about a month ago, because we are already at 37,000+ entries in the db, and when I log in to the backend it is slow as hell to do some queries.
You never question the solutions. If you really question the solutions you will have to question the ones who have offered you those solutions. But sentimentality stands in the way of your rejecting not only the solutions, but those who have offered you the solutions. Questioning that requires a tremendous courage on your part. You can have the courage to climb the mountain, swim the lakes, go on a raft to the other side of the Atlantic or Pacific. That any fool can do, but the courage to be on your own, to stand on your two solid feet, is something which cannot be given by somebody. You cannot free yourself of that burden by trying to develop that courage. If you are freed from the entire burden of the entire past of mankind, then what is left there is the courage. — U.G.
There is a reason that adult minds are not often freed. They are too steeped in fear, unable to escape their conditioning, their programming.
It is easy to posture and be “pro-American”/”pro-Israeli” or “anti-American”/”pro-Palestinian”. These postures/programs/platforms are given to you; there is no individual effort required.
But do we have facts that we are working with? Or just more illusion from the machines? What are the principles we are working with? Do they include the right of all people to self-determination? What are the limits to how we use force others to our own viewpoints? Do we limit ourselves to peaceful means or do we unleash the engines of nuclear war? Do we abide by any rules of engagement or is simply “might makes right” ?
I put the red pill on the table. If you take it, that means you want to know more. To discover where the rabbit hole goes. It certainly doesn’t end in the simplicities of one the major idealogical platforms. Taking the red pill means finding the courage to create your own beliefs based on what is real, not what you are programmed for.
Free your mind.
—
“We should look forward to a time, and that not a distant one, when corruption in this as in the country from which we derive our origin will have seized the heads of government and be spread by them through the body of the people; when they will purchase the voices of the people and make them pay the price. Human nature is the same on every side of the Atlantic and will be alike influenced by the same causes.
When corruption.. has prevailed in those offices of government and has so familiarized itself as that men otherwise honest could look on it without horror, then we must be alive to the suppression of this odious practice and bring to punishment and brand with eternal disgrace every man guilty of it, whatever be his station.”
–Thomas Jefferson, founding father of America
I am very grateful to all the people that helped in the Sept. 11 crisis. With that said, how are we supposed to move on with our lives if everytime we turn around it is constantly thrown in our faces? I know that is not over, but how am I supposed to ge over losing someone when everytime I turn on the television they are showing pictures of it? How are we supposed to stop attacks over here when we broadcast everything we do? We already know that there are contact people over here working for the other side. Why show them or weakest links or areas, because that is what we do everytime we come on T.V broadcasting about how we are planning on stopping there attacks when they come?
I am writing this not to put down the US.I feel that it’s a honor to be in this country and I am damn proud, too. But shouldn’t we let some of this be just between the big people and they inform us of the happenings while its happening or after, because it’s not like we have to much imput as it is?
Its apparent how limited you are.
>>The terrorists represent the last front of a deeply fundamental conservative religion that is being threatened by westernized values. They are the last hold out of a way of life that is far from modern.
You’re quite dim aren’t you … terrorist represents a deeply fundamental conservative releigion? and what releigion would this be, as you say at the end, Islamic terrorism? What sort of half wit blinded remark is that? Let me educate you: not all terrorist are islam, not all muslims are fundamentalist, neither are they conservative. There are modernized Islamic nations out there. Islam is around the world, not just the middle east.
>>They loathe our culture and everything about us.
No, they just loathe you.
>>The muslim world, which has never gone through a reform or modernization,
And that’s exactly why, idiotic remarks like that. You are a shame for whatever you stand for.
>>is now surrounded by liberalized western values and society. Some members of this world have taken to fundamentalism to fight off that change and westernization.
Be aware that people who terrorize are no longer considered Muslim. Thus cannot be labeled “Islamic terrorist”. Just because CNN says so, doesnt mean it’s true. Hitler attacked Russia in the beginning under the name of Christianity. Let’s call him the Christian Warmonger.
>>They won’t go away regardless of our policy. What they hate is far deeper than just our policy it is the fabric of our society, our culture, and values and its influence.
Stop saying ‘our’. They just hate your ignorant guts.
>>Change your policy for better and they’ll find another reason to hate you. The US is on the top of the hate list but Europe is probably number 2 with Russia at number 3. Europe is not immune to this so be careful what you say. You will be on the receiving end of islamic terrorism. It is just a matter of time.
Oh there’s that islamic terrorist. Beware of my generalizations. Them islamic terrorist are gonna get you too, no matter what you do or don’t do. Ignorant prick.
sorry i posted the above, fogot my name. Just so you know.
It is easy to posture and be “pro-American”/”pro-Israeli” or “anti-American”/”pro-Palestinian”
************************************************************
Nice spin Rabbi Pigstein, but “Pro-Israel” doesn’t equal “Pro-American”, neither does “pro-palestinian” equal “Anti-American”. Go vote for Liebermann or go agitate some Blacks against Whites or something.
And to HELL with the Islamists, the only race on the face of the entire EARTH that ever managed to make themselves a bigger PAIN IN THE ASS to the rest of humanity than your own.
And SCREW YOU TOO Johan
” Hitler attacked Russia in the beginning under the name of Christianity. Let’s call him the Christian Warmonger.”
No, let’s call you another SHIT-FOR-BRAINS semite race-baiter.
And a SECOND CURSE against Islamists for leaving the People of the Book on their own against the parasitic race. It’s a real shame your religion places such importance on your works, because you’re going to be judged by them. You’re so fond of saying that our Bible has been altered by the jews, but remember that you will have no such excuse for the way you perverted the intent of your own scriptures on 911.
H. Franco Mussolini :
oh i’m semite now arent I … sheesh. Ignorance.
For christian who read my post, i dont mean to offend, i only say it to underline that by practicing a releigion doesnt mean you advocate things done by evil people under the twisted guise of your beleif.
our perverted intent on our scriptures? Show me these scriptures you talk about.
there’s so much genrealizations with your post, i wont even bother to reply.
Wake up to the real world, Agent Mussolini. Wake up to the overpowering greed that rules America. Listen to what our neighbor, Canada, thinks of us:
The perceived greed of the Western world, including the United States, is one of the underlying causes of the horrific terrorist attacks of a year ago, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien says.
Wake up to the vast disparity on how supportive the Bush administration has been in supporting the Palestinians vs. the Israelis.
Wake up to the support the US gave Israel for their vast offensive against the Palestinians — against every international law, UN resolution and humanitarian decree — including the massacres at Jenin.
From the point of view of the “leadership” of the US, it is certainly “un-American” to be pro-Palestinian.
Wake up to the flawed, unbalanced foreign policy that is creating fertile ground for acts of further terrorism against Americans and Israelis.
Wake up to the stumbling economy and the deep recession American is on the brink of.
Wake up to the shards and scraps that are all that is left of the Bill of Rights.
Wake up to Bush II, the most power hungry bloodthirsty President the US has ever had.
Wake up to the fact the the Vice President of the United States is in contempt of court and has not turned over documents showing his collusion with Enron.
Wake up to having a rational discussion, about reality, not just lapsing into a dysfunctional emotive tantrum.
Wake up to being able to talk about something without attacking other people, other ideas, other minds. Wake up to what America is really about.
And wake up to the most important thing of all.
There is no spin.
Free your mind.
UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992
1. Resolution 106: “… ‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid”
2. Resolution 111: “…’condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people”
3. Resolution 127: “…’recommends’ Israel suspend its ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem”
4. Resolution 162: “…’urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions”
5. Resolution 171: “…determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria”
6. Resolution 228: “…’censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control”
7. Resolution 237: “…’urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees”
8. Resolution 248: “… ‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan”
9. Resolution 250: “… ‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem”
10. Resolution 251: “… ‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250”
11. Resolution 252: “…’declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital”
12. Resolution 256: “… ‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation””
13. Resolution 259: “…’deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation”
14. Resolution 262: “…’condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport”
15. Resolution 265: “… ‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan”
16. Resolution 267: “…’censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem”
17. Resolution 270: “…’condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon”
18. Resolution 271: “…’condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem”
19. Resolution 279: “…’demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon”
20. Resolution 280: “….’condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon”
21. Resolution 285: “…’demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon”
22. Resolution 298: “…’deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem”
23. Resolution 313: “…’demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon”
24. Resolution 316: “…’condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon”
25. Resolution 317: “…’deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon”
26. Resolution 332: “…’condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon”
27. Resolution 337: “…’condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty”
28. Resolution 347: “…’condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon”
29. Resolution 425: “…’calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon”
30. Resolution 427: “…’calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon’
31. Resolution 444: “…’deplores’ Israel’s lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces”
32. Resolution 446: “…’determines’ that Israeli settlements are a ‘serious obstruction’ to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention”
33. Resolution 450: “…’calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon”
34. Resolution 452: “…’calls’ on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories”
35. Resolution 465: “…’deplores’ Israel’s settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel’s settlements program”
36. Resolution 467: “…’strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon”
37. Resolution 468: “…’calls’ on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return”
38. Resolution 469: “…’strongly deplores’ Israel’s failure to observe the council’s order not to deport Palestinians”
39. Resolution 471: “… ‘expresses deep concern’ at Israel’s failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention”
40. Resolution 476: “… ‘reiterates’ that Israel’s claims to Jerusalem are ‘null and void'”
41. Resolution 478: “…’censures (Israel) in the strongest terms’ for its claim to Jerusalem in its ‘Basic Law'”
42. Resolution 484: “…’declares it imperative’ that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors”
43. Resolution 487: “…’strongly condemns’ Israel for its attack on Iraq’s nuclear facility”
44. Resolution 497: “…’decides’ that Israel’s annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights is ‘null and void’ and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith”
45. Resolution 498: “…’calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon”
46. Resolution 501: “…’calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops”
47. Resolution 509: “…’demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon”
48. Resolution 515: “…’demands’ that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in”
49. Resolution 517: “…’censures’ Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon”
50. Resolution 518: “…’demands’ that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon”
51. Resolution 520: “…’condemns’ Israel’s attack into West Beirut”
52. Resolution 573: “…’condemns’ Israel ‘vigorously’ for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: “…’takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw”
54. Resolution 592: “…’strongly deplores’ the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops”
55. Resolution 605: “…’strongly deplores’ Israel’s policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: “…’calls’ on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: “…’deeply regrets’ that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians”
58. Resolution 636: “…’deeply regrets’ Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: “…’deplores’ Israel’s continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: “…’condemns’ Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: “…’deplores’ Israel’s refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: “…’deplores’ Israel’s resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: “…’deplores’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: “…’strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: “…’strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.
Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.
From Findley’s Deliberate Deceptions, 1998 pages 192 – 194.
The following are the resolutions vetoed by the United States during the period of September, 1972, to May, 1990 to protect Israel from council criticism:
1. ….condemned Israel’s attack against Southern against southern Lebanon and Syria…”
2. ….affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections…”
3. …condemned Israel’s air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians…”
4. ….called for self-determination of Palestinian people…”
5. ….deplored Israel’s altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most world nations and the United Nations…”
6. ….affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people…”
7. ….endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people…”
8. ….demanded Israel’s withdrawal from the Golan Heights…”
9. ….condemned Israel’s mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations…”
10. ….condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem…”
11. ….urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon…”
12. ….urged sanctions against Israel if it did not
13. .withdraw from its invasion of Beirut…”
14. ….urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon…”
15. ….condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace…”
16. ….deplores Israel’s brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal…”
17. ….condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli ‘Iron Fist’ policy of repression….”
18. ….denounced Israel’s violation of human rights in the occupied territories…”
19. ….deplored Israel’s violence in southern Lebanon…”
20. ….deplored Israel’s activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites…”
21. ….condemned Israel’s hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane…”
22. ….deplored Israel’s attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon…”
23. ….called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations…”
24. ….urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel’s shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices…”
25. ….condemned Israel’s… incursion into Lebanon…”
26. ….deplored Israel’s… commando raids on Lebanon…”
27. ….deplored Israel’s repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians…”
28. ….deplored Israel’s violation of the human rights of the Palestinians…”
29. ….demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel’s crackdown on the Palestinian intifada…”
30. …called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands…”
Welcome to the desert of the real.
Without facts, without looking at the real world, endless platform debates will improve nothing. If our goal is a peaceful world where people can live happy lives, let us see who and what we are working with.
Ignorance is not a solid foundation for good decision making. Rather than throw insults at people, ask yourself “do I have the facts?”
If you don’t have the facts, go and learn. Without judging the information.
Trinity: I know why you’re here, Neo. I know what you’ve been doing… why you hardly sleep, why you live alone, and why night after night, you sit by your computer. You’re looking for him. I know because I was once looking for the same thing. And when he found me, he told me I wasn’t really looking for him. I was looking for an answer. It’s the question, Neo. It’s the question that drives us. It’s the question that brought you here. You know the question, just as I did.
Neo: What is the Matrix?
Trinity: The answer is out there, Neo, and it’s looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
From the Washington Post
UNSCR 678 – November 29, 1990
Iraq must comply fully with UNSCR 660 (regarding Iraq’s illegal invasion of Kuwait) “and all subsequent relevant resolutions.”
Authorizes UN Member States “to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area.” UNSCR 686 – March 2, 1991
Iraq must release prisoners detained during the Gulf War.
Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.
Iraq must accept liability under international law for damages from its illegal invasion of Kuwait. UNSCR 687 – April 3, 1991
Iraq must “unconditionally accept” the destruction, removal or rendering harmless “under international supervision” of all “chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities.”
Iraq must “unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material” or any research, development or manufacturing facilities.
Iraq must “unconditionally accept” the destruction, removal or rendering harmless “under international supervision” of all “ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 KM and related major parts and repair and production facilities.”
Iraq must not “use, develop, construct or acquire” any weapons of mass destruction.
Iraq must reaffirm its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Creates the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) to verify the elimination of Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons programs and mandated that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) verify elimination of Iraq’s nuclear weapons program.
Iraq must declare fully its weapons of mass destruction programs.
Iraq must not commit or support terrorism, or allow terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq.
Iraq must cooperate in accounting for the missing and dead Kuwaitis and others.
Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War. UNSCR 688 – April 5, 1991
“Condemns” repression of Iraqi civilian population, “the consequences of which threaten international peace and security.”
Iraq must immediately end repression of its civilian population.
Iraq must allow immediate access to international humanitarian organizations to those in need of assistance.
UNSCR 707 – August 15, 1991
“Condemns” Iraq’s “serious violation” of UNSCR 687.
“Further condemns” Iraq’s noncompliance with IAEA and its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Iraq must halt nuclear activities of all kinds until the Security Council deems Iraq in full compliance.
Iraq must make a full, final and complete disclosure of all aspects of its weapons of mass destruction and missile programs.
Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
Iraq must cease attempts to conceal or move weapons of mass destruction, and related materials and facilities.
Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors to conduct inspection flights throughout Iraq.
Iraq must provide transportation, medical and logistical support for UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 715 – October 11, 1991
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 949 – October 15, 1994
“Condemns” Iraq’s recent military deployments toward Kuwait.
Iraq must not utilize its military or other forces in a hostile manner to threaten its neighbors or UN operations in Iraq.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors.
Iraq must not enhance its military capability in southern Iraq.
UNSCR 1051 – March 27, 1996
Iraq must report shipments of dual-use items related to weapons of mass destruction to the UN and IAEA.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1060 – June 12, 1996
“Deplores” Iraq’s refusal to allow access to UN inspectors and Iraq’s “clear violations” of previous UN resolutions.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1115 – June 21, 1997
“Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access” to UN inspectors, which constitutes a “clear and flagrant violation” of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1134 – October 23, 1997
“Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access” to UN inspectors, which constitutes a “flagrant violation” of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1137 – November 12, 1997
“Condemns the continued violations by Iraq” of previous UN resolutions, including its “implicit threat to the safety of” aircraft operated by UN inspectors and its tampering with UN inspector monitoring equipment.
Reaffirms Iraq’s responsibility to ensure the safety of UN inspectors.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1154 – March 2, 1998
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access, and notes that any violation would have the “severest consequences for Iraq.”
UNSCR 1194 – September 9, 1998
“Condemns the decision by Iraq of 5 August 1998 to suspend cooperation with” UN and IAEA inspectors, which constitutes “a totally unacceptable contravention” of its obligations under UNSCR 687, 707, 715, 1060, 1115, and 1154.
Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors, and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1205 – November 5, 1998
“Condemns the decision by Iraq of 31 October 1998 to cease cooperation” with UN inspectors as “a flagrant violation” of UNSCR 687 and other resolutions.
Iraq must provide “immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation” with UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 1284 – December 17, 1999
Created the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspections Commission (UNMOVIC) to replace previous weapon inspection team (UNSCOM).
Iraq must allow UNMOVIC “immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access” to Iraqi officials and facilities.
Iraq must fulfill its commitment to return Gulf War prisoners.
Calls on Iraq to distribute humanitarian goods and medical supplies to its people and address the needs of vulnerable Iraqis without discrimination.
Additional UN Security Council Statements
In addition to the legally binding UNSCRs, the UN Security Council has also issued at least 30 statements from the President of the UN Security Council regarding Saddam Hussein’s continued violations of UNSCRs.
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?
“We certainly cannot deny to other nations that principle whereon our government is founded, that every nation has a right to govern itself internally under what forms it pleases, and to change these forms at its own will; and externally to transact business with other nations through whatever organ it chooses, whether that be a King, Convention, Assembly, Committee, President, or whatever it be. The only thing essential is, the will of the nation.”
“The presumption of dictating to an independent nation the form of its government is so arrogant, so atrocious, that indignation as well as moral sentiment enlists all our partialities and prayers in favor of one and our equal execrations against the other. I do not know, indeed, whether all nations do not owe to one another a bold and open declaration of their sympathies with the one party and their detestation of the conduct of the other. But farther than this we are not bound to go; and, indeed, for the sake of the world, we ought not to increase the jealousies or draw on ourselves the power of a formidable confederacy.”
— Thomas Jefferson, founding father of America
So why are we here, in the middle of not just one country’s affairs, but the entire middle east?
Is is the oil?
Is it ethnic hatred?
Is it a military industrial complex out of control?
It is the question that drives us.
Before more Americans die, I hope we find an answer that the founding father of America would agree with.
Oracle: You’re going to have to make a choice. In the one hand you’ll have Morpheus’ life and in the other hand you’ll have your own. One of you is going to die. Which one will be up to you. I’m sorry, kiddo, I really am. You have a good soul, and I hate giving good people bad news. Oh, don’t worry about it. As soon as you step outside that door, you’ll start feeling better. You’ll remember you don’t believe in any of this fate crap. You’re in control of your own life, remember? Here, take a cookie. I promise, by the time you’re done eating it, you’ll feel right as rain.
Hey everyone how did this move to Isreal????? I personaly don’t care one way or another I just wanted to make the ameican haters shut the hell up if you want to hate Isreal go right ahead
Reading the many posts by pro-americans, it becomes clear that they essentially “do not get it”, for want of a better phrase.
The only way they will “get it” is when they suffer what they have done to the rest of the world. And suffer the insulting commentary that they have given in response to reasoned arguments and appeals for re-evaluation.
I fear that it will come to that, and solely due to the fact that the americans cannot avert the inevitable clash simply because they “don’t get it”… they donm’t see “what is there to change?”.
For the sake of global diversity and universal dynamism, i sincerely hope the american empire crumble.
It would be the worst trahedy to befall mankind if the earth became a stagnant uniform feeding ground for the us miltary/corporate parasite… a world of “globalisation”… a world of “liberal imperialism”… a world where everyone wears a cap or a suit… a world where teh only place to find a kimono or a fez is in museums… a world where the only permitted way to think is along the lines of american democracy.
You people sure pretend to alot of wisdom for a race that still eats cous-cous and goat’s eyes with their fingers. We “get it” Allende. We get that every other nation in the world hates America, so Bush is correct after all to proceed without the support of the mud-races that pray to pagan gods for our destruction. For all your pretense about hating jews, you never pull this crap during a jew administration, you waited 10 years for another Bush. Bush expressed his intention of recognizing Palestine without regard to his popularity ratings, but you wouldn’t have it because you’re a bunch of camel-humping snivellers that love only murder. Quit flapping your camel-butt faces and make your next move so Bush will be justified in exterminating you. After that, when we want the U.N.’s opinion WE’LL TELL IT TO THEM.
And Morpeus, quit posting your megabytes of gay prose, you’re not impressing anyone. The more you demonstrate your correct grasp of right and wrong, the more you condemn yourself for approving of 911.
For the sake of global diversity and universal dynamism, i sincerely hope the american empire crumble.
It would be the worst trahedy to befall mankind if the earth became a stagnant uniform feeding ground for the us miltary/corporate parasite… a world of “globalisation”… a world of “liberal imperialism”… a world where everyone wears a cap or a suit… a world where teh only place to find a kimono or a fez is in museums… a world where the only permitted way to think is along the lines of american democracy.
First of all, America is the epitome of diversity. It is the great melting pot of cultures. Americans don’t feel that there needs to be “uniform American values” throughout the world to have peace. In fact there is no such thing. The great part of America is the peaceful coexistence of all types of value systems without constant civil war and civil violence.
In the end, a few hundred years from now probably, the entire world will be under democratic rule of some sort or another. Not American democratic rule, but democratic rule. The concept of a representative government predates the foundation of the United States by a few thousand years remember. The representative government is the high point of civic evolution. Unfortunately not every society in the world is ready for it.
As a human I would like to see the entire world scene emulate the core of American civic values without exchanging their cultural heritage for that. By this I mean I would like to see every country with a stable representative government. I would like to see the basic rights enacted in the United States constitution and bill of rights in place in every country. I would also like to raise the standard of living of the poor in all countries to the level of the west, and bring large populations into the middle class of those countries as well.
All of these things can be accomplished without destroying the underlying culture of the region. I’m sure there are plenty of people in the US, mostly our religious fundamentalists and far right wing politicians, who would like to replace the culture of those areas with “proper” Christian culture. This is not the overall drive I’m thinking of however, nor is it the drive of most people investing time and financial resources into these areas of the world.
If the economy, civil rights and governments of all regions of the world emulated Europe and the United States we wouldn’t be having the situation that exists in Israel or many of the nations in Africa. We wouldn’t have tens of thousands of people die every year during weather disasters. We also wouldn’t have the problems of rapid famine throughout the world.
Since this can all be accomplished without the destruction of the underlying culture, and the majority of the people involved in working towards this goal are not of the ilk to try and force a westernization of the culture and religion of the region, I fail to see why the engine for this transformation should be so despised.
H. Franco Mussolini, the level of intellect and blind hate displayed in your post indicates the kind of people the rest of the world is up against.
for your information, i am not “camel humping”, i do eat with my fingers, and i am a fair haired, blue-eyed, pale skinned person – your post suggests otherwise.
does it distress you that i am white and western and can see reasons for the US to fall?
It would be the worst tragedy to befall mankind if the earth became a stagnant uniform feeding ground for the us miltary/corporate parasite… a world of “globalisation”… a world of “liberal imperialism”… a world where everyone wears a cap or a suit… a world where teh only place to find a kimono or a fez is in museums… a world where the only permitted way to think is along the lines of american democracy.”
Have you been reading al qaida handbooks or something. thanks for showing us that its not just americans that can be irrational.
hank – thank you for a more calmer post.
what do you make of this american chap’s synopsis of the starte of the american people:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,12361,78998…
reading this would have you beleive that the US is not an example of any peak if civilisation.
you say you would liek to see representative govt everywhere… then why didthe US overthrow the ELECTED Allende in a bloody coup? why does the US spnsor unrepresentative puppets worldwide? why does it supply resources to minority terror groups? iran-contra?
as the English Guardian explained: the US people are kept away from such realities to make their lives more comfortable. and to make them more pliable.
i think it would be enlightening for both of us (at least) if you truied to reason why the US sposored the overthrow of Allende in Chile 1973, and more recently tried to overthrow Hugo Chavez who represents his people?
Even Arafat was elected! … you can you say the same for your George W Bush… right now in Florida we are seeing a replay of the electoral irregularities regarding Janet Reno…
come on Hank… you don’t seriously belive your own hype? do you?
i would put it to you that the US, never havinh had a long and ancient history, is still in the infantile cultural stage. and that is why they can;t see it when they pollute and destroy other peoples ancient cultures.
no, ryan, i read the broadest possible sources of news that i possible can, from the ny times, to the al-hayat, from the uk guardian to the spanish el pais. from the us Time, to the french figaro.
do you? i would be dissappointed if you were only fed on a diet of cnn and fox?
the US had no problem with UB Laden Esq. against the soviets?
the US had no problem with Mssr S. Hussein in 1979 when they broought him to power?
they had no problem with our chap Manuel Noriega, either?
Now do you see? Your ideas of the US;s morality are false. Its what they want you to believe.
Look at this: the Bush oil clan were dealing with the Taliban? Its even publsihed in the US papers!
Look at thus: george bush’s granddad helped finance the Nazi regime in germany. under the Trading With the Enemy Act, Roosevelt was forced to take their shares.
could it not be clearer?
>>Have you been reading al qaida handbooks or something.
>>thanks for showing us that its not just americans that
>>can be irrational.
Yes i do read a number of sources worldwide. I particularly like russian news sites because they always say the opposite of US sites but that is not the point. Irrational is irrational. Reading can but does not necessarily stop irrational behavior or thoughts.
Mark my words
The world is steadily changing. Intellectual thought has, for the last 50 years, been hijacked by the extreme left (and a few religious extremists in the middle east) Just like the right before them, they rewrote history and interpreted events to their needs. They are just as bad as the right.
However, extremes come and go. Europe, from which i strongly doubt you are from, is now pushing to its next extreme the right. It will be as bad as the left before it.
Take this into consideration the same laborers whose support put the left in power in Europe are decidely swinging to the right these days. They are anti-immigration, anti-jewish, anti-muslim, and incredibly nationalistic.
My guess is that the US will have to step in and moderate Europe’s extreme right again. My guess is that the US will need to defend the rights of the many Muslims and the few remaining jewish in Europe again.
By the way, most of you just think you are angry at the US. What you are really angry at is your own lack of power, the europeans in particular. So very many of Europes policies (like the war tribunal nonsense) are really designed to curb US influence or to strengthen Europe. Don’t blame us for feeling powerless. It is not our fault. It is your own.
US policy has screwed people all of the world. Take note that the only terrorists that are trying to poison our water supply are muslim fundamentalists. They are not angry panamanians or nicaraguans or even chileans. And please take note that cuba, russia, china, packistan, india, sudan, somalia, serbia, have killed plenty more people than the US, some individually. Please also note that a lot more muslims have been killed by muslim nations and india in the last 20 years then by the US or israel in 200 years.
Or to rephrase one of my other posts, the root of this current terrorism runs a lot deeper than simple policy. I don’t subscribe to the apologist “you deserved 9/11” line. Yes their are bad policies that need to be changed. No changing them won’t make people who call us infidels and call for a holy war go away. The root of that evil has to do with something far more complex and fundamental. Some of it is feeling powerless. Some of it is simply resistance to change and hatred for the spread of western values, which don’t necessarily need to destroy other cultures. As i said before, you can track that fundamentalist movement well before most of the US’s sins. Bad US policy makes it easier for the fundamentalists to recruit yes but changing the policy won’t make this problem go away.
When I was putting forth my idealistic, perhaps even utopian, view, I was not stating that with any relevance to current US foreign policy. I don’t like the fact that the U.S. has supported the regimes in question for political expediancy. This is not the way that my future vision would be achieved, and as you pointed out it is an unfortunate part of US foreign policy of the last half of the 20th century.
The fact that this is hidden from the common American is not due to some conspiracy however. If it was a conspiracy, then they’ve done a very poor job covering their tracks. The fact that these things aren’t brought up in the media or during election is pure market economics. No one wants to hear about that, so those who are selling their air time or themselves (politicians), won’t touch it with a ten foot pole. It’s not snazzy and “cool” enough for prime time. Unfortunatetly most people don’t read much further than the front page of their newspaper or the ten minute daily news brief on TV, so they aren’t even aware of the existence of these events.
I would like to carry on this conversation after this drops off the osnews front page. My legitimate e-mail address is above ( [email protected]). If you could please put OSNEWS or something in the subject header so I know it isn’t spam. I would be happy to continue a rational and intellectual conversation on this topic with anyone on the board.
Thanks and take care,
Hank
I don’t think these anti-americans will ever learn will they? hank that’s a mistake you know a rational and intellectual coversation with these people is impossible. I’m also starting to just hate them back and say fuck’em, because when I tryed talking all they did is spout more shit
oh and all you stupid dumb fucks I’m thinking about becoming a jew what do you think about that???
Even Arafat was elected! … you can you say the same for your George W Bush…
Yes. Dork.
…right now in Florida we are seeing a replay of the electoral irregularities regarding Janet Reno…
Why? Because she lost since nobody likes her because she’s a beer wench with a law degree? If that is indeed what you are saying, it seems to me you cry foul play whenever someone you don’t like wins. That’s a crying shame. It really is. No, really.
I am glad that this topic was a record breaker. It was fun to participate. Now that the thread is dead, I can go home.
“Yet still there are double standards at work here. George Bush can rightly condemn the killing of Israeli university students as making him “mad”, but blithely brush off the slaughter of Palestinian children by a bomb dropped from a US-made Israeli plane as “heavy handed”. Yet it’s not just the pitiful remarks of President Bush, but the double standards of whole peoples. Here’s what I mean. Today, 11 September, our newspapers and our television screens are filled with the baleful images of those two towers and their biblical descent. We will remember and honour the thousands who died. But in just five days’ time, Palestinians will remember their September massacre of 1982. Will a single candle be lit for them in the West? Will there be a single memorial service? Will a single American newspaper dare to recall this atrocity? Will a single British newspaper commemorate the 20th anniversary of these mass killings of 1,700 innocents? Do I even need to give the answer?”
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=332182
“However, extremes come and go. Europe, from which i strongly doubt you are from, is now pushing to its next extreme the right.”
Well, his ISP is inty.net, which is based in the UK, as far as I can tell. Whats the matter? Can’t you believe that so called ‘civilased’ people from a ‘democracy’ who do not suffer from ‘technology and freedom envy’ would hate American foreign policy so much?
America really needs to ‘take its head out of the sand’.
Here is an example. It has been reported that at the World Racism Conference in Durban South Africa roughly two years ago, all the representatives of all the countries present voted in favour of passing a motion that ‘Zionism is racism’. Only Israel and America opposed it.
Let’s not forget about Kyoto. And about the World Court.
Most of this thread seems to be about nationalism–what governments do– and broad statements about what religions are about: Christianity, Jewish, Muslim.
This nationalistic and religious crap is what really traps us as individuals. Humanity will progress when we empower individuals and give preference to individual rights and freedoms. Only by empowering individuals can we overcome the fear and insignificance that individuals feel, fear that makes people want to belong to something bigger than themselves, like a nation or religion, and leads to ignorance and hatred of people of other nations and religions.
“oh and all you stupid dumb fucks I’m thinking about becoming a jew what do you think about that???”
Snip snip snip, fifty dollar tip 😉
“Here is an example. It has been reported that at the World Racism Conference in Durban South Africa roughly two years ago, all the representatives of all the countries present voted in favour of passing a motion that ‘Zionism is racism’. Only Israel and America opposed it.”
8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
You still don’t understand, do you? What you said is absolutely true. Maybe even all your references have been. But your “answer” to this problem was to KILL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE UNDER THEIR CONTROL. Could you have taken down Stalin by crashing a plane full of his subjects into a building full of his subjects??? FOOL! Your fate was sealed when you chose your course of action just as surely as the Aryan race’s fate was sealed when Hitler attacked fellow White races. Your religion teaches you that Christians are “People of the Book”, and that we have been mislead by the jews. Your solution was what? TO KILL US!!! Society can endure even the humblest laborer, but not the mad thinker. Deep down inside I know this whole mess was a jewish trick to get Christians and Muslims to kill each other off, BUT I HAVE NEVER HEARD A SINGLE MUSLIM EXPRESS REMORSE FOR WHAT WAS DONE. So keep patting yourself on the back, telling yourself how wise and pious you are. Your race apparently shares an abberrant thought process in common, an inherited psychological quirk, a genetic tendency to misunderstand and mishandle truth and reality. I look forward to your removal from the Human gene pool. Let Islam be preserved by a race with an appetite for something other than bloodshed.
america’s head is not in the sand. Europe’s is. America does Europes dirty work and Europe complains. zionism as racism is political nonsense pushed a bunch of arab states who are as anti semitic as it gets. Now that is not to say that israel has done no wrong. they have. but hatred for israel and the PLO support is nothing but a political ploy. palestinians, who i really feel bad for, are just toys to the middle eastern government just like the cold war was to the uS right-wing. hating jews sells in the middle east.
The world can be grateful to Adolf Hitler for one thing: He finally gave
racism a bad name. The
horror and revulsion we Americans felt over the Holocaust helped us
confront our own legacy of
racial discrimination. When our soldiers returned from defeating Hitler,
the “colored only” drinking
fountains were no longer tolerable.
Not only Americans were shocked sober by the Holocaust. The mood of
“never again” produced the
United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and, for that
matter, the state of Israel
itself.
Not that racism has been eradicated_far from it! Racial conflict may be
one of those demons that
permanently haunts the human heart. But at least it is no longer
publicly acceptable among those
regarded as members of civilized society_that broad territory between
David Duke and Louis
Farrakhan.
It is fitting therefore that the United Nations, the offspring of the
world’s revulsion against racism, is
conducting a World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination,
Xenophobia and Related
Intolerance in Durban, South Africa, this September. Racial
discrimination plagues societies all
around the globe, and one of the good purposes the U.N. can serve,
despite its flaws, is to discuss
and promote steps to mitigate discrimination.
Predictably, however, this serious conference with a serious objective
is the victim of an attempted
highjacking by elements that have an agenda other than racial equality.
The U.N.’s “problem
children” nations seem to have reached a consensus. They want the Durban
conference to
concentrate on the “evil” of Zionism rather than the evils they engage
in. After all, a real
conference about racism would embarrass an Iraqi regime that has
systematically suppressed its
Kurdish minority or the Sudanese who are waging a genocidal war against
their Nilotic minority. The
enemies of Israel do not come to Durban with clean hands, and that is a
chief reason they want to
turn the Durban conference into a festival of anti-Semitism.
Their mantra is “Zionism is racism,” a theme that actually made it into
a U.N. General Assembly
resolution in the 1970s when American prestige was at its nadir.
Zionism, the notion that the Jews
be allowed to have their own country like everyone else, is no more
racism than is the notion that
the Japanese, the Poles, the Irish and the Mexicans ought to have
countries of their own.
But “Zionism is racism” serves the interests of the practitioners of
tantrum diplomacy. For one thing,
jealousy of the United States unites the U.N.’s problem children. But
lacking the strength to hurt
the U.S., they attack our ally, Israel. Moreover, the Arabs who live in
and near Israel make a
plausible “victim group” because they comprise an ethnic minority within
Israel_an ethnic minority
that is more privileged in many ways than those in other countries, but
which nonetheless has
grievances that can be exploited. Most of all, however, accusing the
Jews of racism whitewashes
the Jew-hatred that is the heart and soul of anti-Zionism.
Those who try to hide their anti-Semitism pretend it is not “the Jews”
whom they despise, but only
a political agenda called “Zionism.” At a minimum, this is like
suggesting that the Third Partition of
Poland, which wiped Poland out of political existence for more than a
century and divided its
territory among its neighbors, was not anti-Polish. The “anti-Zionism”
ploy is even more dishonest
because the agenda of the “anti-Zionists” is not merely political. They
really do want to wipe the
Jews off the face of the earth, and they make no bones about saying so
in propaganda to their own
citizens.
The “Zionism is racism” drumbeat is identical to the racism that gave
birth to the Holocaust and, in
the attempt to prevent such a horror from ever occurring again, the
United Nations. Indeed, the
very purpose of a U.N. Conference Against Racism should be to end
forever any such notion as
“Zionism is racism.”
Your gutter religion’s own filthy scriptures state “A gentile 3 years of age may be violated”. Several years ago when two Rabbis got arrested for molesting an 11 year old child sitting between them on an airplane, one of god’s chosen little pedophiles actually had the temerity to offer in his defense that such behavior was permissible by his religion. You have scriptures saying that the gentile is merely a beast, and that the only reason your god made us in Human form was so the jew would not have to be served by a beast. Your own history in the old testament never shows you contributing anything to the race of Man, just killing him and stealing his gold. So go peddle your sob story to dumb ass Americans that have had their minds warped by jewish teachers. The rest of the world is quite familiar with the way you sit on Humanity’s neck like a TICK.
And a further curse on the Islamists, COWARDS that read but won’t post, COWARDS that killed unprepared civilians instead of military targets, COWARDS that have forced jew and gentile to be on the same side for the first time in history just to dispose of YOU.
You knew the truth, and followed your own bloodthirsty nature instead.
Please all calm down.
Nothing matters in this world if you ask me. Just have fun, be a good person and love all the people. One day, we all going to die, and all this Magic the Gathering cards, or CDs, or computers we all fanatically collect, they will all be gone. Poof. Nothing. The end. And all these arguments over here… nothing changes anything. So please _everyone_ calm down please.
In response to:
” for your information, i am not “camel humping”, i do eat with my fingers, and i am a fair haired, blue-eyed, pale skinned person – your post suggests otherwise. does it distress you that i am white and western and can see reasons for the US to fall?”
Allende … So your a f…… Neo Nazi! Who gives a rip! The only person it sounds like with any balls in your country is TONY BLAIR!
PRAX, USA
Hear hear Eugenia I agree completely
Eugenia – can you say what you said to a child who is taking 3 years to die because of US bombing? Could you really go to his parents and say “calm down” – cvould you really tell a bosnian teenage girl who had her womb cut open by serbian paramilitaries to “chill out”. could you?
would you really say that if your own daughter was raped and then brutally murdered in front of you by russian forces?
would you really say “calm down” if you were asked which one of your two sons could survive – the other shot through the head – watched by the rest of your family?
you disappoint me Eugenia.
the only people who can say that are those who are in enough comfort and complacence to say that.
if there is anything to be learn from these posts , it is that the complacent class will only learn when their complacency is rudely interrupted.
Thanks for your help following the days after Sept. 11 2001.
Thanks for everything.
Here’s to Lewisporte,Gander, Sackville, Moncton, Halifax, Victoria, Edmonton, and others.
Thanks. It’s great to know that we have such wonderful friends in Canada.
–
Looking forward to a glass of Screech.
> you disappoint me Eugenia.
Yeah. Sorry. Shit happens. They happen since Day 1 from the human race put feet on this planet.
I can’t change the world you know. I wish I could.