Today is a solemn day of introspection and rememberance here in the United States, and we here at OSNews would like to send our condolances to those who lost loved ones in the attacks on the Pentagon and Twin Towers. Though most of the people of the world did not experience the attacks first hand, there are very few people in the world who were not affected by them in some way. I know it’s a bit off-topic, but I’d like to open up a discussion thread today for people to air their feelings about the events of a year ago, and where they think things stand today. And if you read on, I’ll get things started by talking a bit about what happened to me on that day and since.On Semptember 11, 2001, I was in Atlanta at the Networld+Interop trade show. My wife was pregnant with our second child, and I brought her and my one year old boy with me to Atlanta. That morning I was on the trade show floor at the Red Hat booth, preparing to launch a product that I had worked very hard on, the Red Hat E-commerce Suite. The trade show floor opened at 9:00, and people started to trickle in. I started to give software demos. All of a sudden, cell phones started ringing.
My wife was on the phone. “A plane had hit the World Trade Center.” We started to bring up news sites on the web to see if we could see pictures and find out what happened. Before long, we were getting other flashes of news. We slowly started realizing that something terrible was happening. She called a few more times to update me, but slowly our cell phones stopped connecting, due to the fact that every living being in the convention center was on the phone. Access to the main internet news sites came to a virtual standstill. One of the only accessible sources of information was Slashdot, where people were re-posting news that they had gleaned from other sources. One of my co-workers, an ex-special forces guy, called some friends at the Pentagon and reported, ashen-faced, on what they knew. It was a coordinated attack with passenger planes, and there were still planes in the air.
By 9:40, companies were packing up their people and leaving the trade show. Red Hat rented a bus to take everyone back to Durham. I’m from Washington D.C. so I didn’t go. Luckily, we had rented a car, because within an hour of the airport closing, every rental car in Atlanta was gone. My wife was was watching TV in the hotel, frantic, and worried that the CNN building (next to the convention center) might be a target. I left the trade show and took the train to the hotel. Normally on public transportation people don’t talk to one another, but this trip was like group therapy. None of us knew much about what was going on, we were just fleeing downtown Atlanta and heading for the suburbs.
When my wife picked me up, I was so glad I had brought my family, and even though we were were displaced 800 miles from home in a hotel room, we were together, and we weren’t in D.C. My good friend was at Cantor Fitzgerald the week before doing consulting, but had decided at the last minute to take some consulting work back in D.C. and not return to New York that week, and his life was spared, while all the people he had worked with that previous week perished. My best friend’s wife was in the Pentagon on Spetember 11th, though she was luckily on the other side of the massive building and felt only a vibration when the plane hit.
We made it home safe by driving our rental car to D.C. My product, which was not ever really launched and hit the market when companies were paralyzed, was ultimately a financial failure. But it was a small price to pay to be safe and sound. A year before, I had stood at the window of the World Trade Center in the Cantor Fitzgerald office, looking out over New York, standing at the exact spot that the plane hit the building. It makes me think how only a twist of fate can bring us happiness or great misfortune.
Since that time we’ve seen hysteria and paranoia and the erosion of our personal freedoms in this country. More people now would like to see the press have less freedom, and would gladly accept less freedom for themselves in exchange for a little more safety, or even the perception of safety. Greedy people bellied up to the table in Washington to exploit the crisis for a handout. Even though the immediate aftermath of the attacks brought out the very best in people, with heroic deeds and noble sacrifice, the long-term aftermath has just as much brought out the worst in us, with cynical opportunism, political maneuvering, and exploiting the people’s emotions for personal gain.
After this year, I hope there are no large-scale commemorations of the events of September 11th. Like all great tragedies, it should be remembered, but not ostentatiously commemorated or celebrated. Today, let’s remember, and let’s try to move on from this and make the world a better place. I believe that that’s the best way we can honor the memories of the people who died that day, and it’s the best way to make sure that the people who planned and executed that villainous attack will have ultimately failed to achieve their goal.
not here…
Let us remember all the victims of September, 11.
Let us remember all the victims of the “War Against Terror”, dead Afghans.
Let us remember all victims of aggression.
One year ago today, I worked less than a mile from the Pentagon in Crystal City (we’ve since moved to the Navy Yard in DC). My entire office was filled with black smoke and it was tough to breathe outside. A few of us went across the street to the Hyatt and went to the observation deck. We watched the Pentagon burn.
That night, we went over to Pentagon City and climbed the big hill on Army Navy Drive (for those of you that know DC) and watched, once again, as the Pentagon burned, flames appearing to come from everywhere on the inside of the outer ring. It look like oil burning, no matter what they did, it didn’t make an visible difference. It burned for days.
I’m over this – I’m ready to move on and get back to business. Working for the armed forces, I feel as though I can indirectly do my part by making sure the people here can get their part done. But I’ll always remember, in vivid color, Sept 11, 2001.
I would like to say thank you to all emergency response personnel. Without you, not as many people would have survived Sept 11. Thank you to all the Fire Fighters, Police Officers, Medical Personnel, everyone that takes time to help others. You are true heroes.
I’m actually quite sympathetic to your point of view. I considered just lgnoring this sad anniversary. But I decided that, like with all off-topic news postings, if people don’t want to read about it, they can just skip ahead and not read it. So let’s all try to be civil.
yes, let us remember this too:
– hiroshima nuke from usa
– embargo of all muslim countries from usa
– dessert storm from usa
– the killing of the natives from usa
– slavery of black people from usa
– vietnam war of usa
– the payback and killing of nearly 5000 children and innocent people in afghanistan because of their chirurgical war.
… list is probably incomplete.
I read this somewhere, and think it’s a good quote
“In New York the Police are called the “Finest” and the Firemen the “Bravest” that morning they showed us why”
Please do not turn this site into another
stommach-turning “we-are-all-heroes-here-in-the-USA” site.
Believe it or not. the rest of the world does not realy care.
And in case you did not know: there are more non-Americans in the world than Americans.
So let’s keep (at least) this site at a professional level.
Thank you.
For anyone that has been affected by Sept. 11, 2001, may GOD bless you and may he watch over you.
“Believe it or not. the rest of the world does not realy care.”
You should care. If it were not for the USA, you would not be able to post anything to this web site, since the internet would not exist.
Ass….
Come on anonymous, you do care. How can you not??? What if it would of happened to you? What if you were in the World Trade Center? What if your kid was in the World Trade Center? What if you were on one of those planes? What if that was your father that risked his life and died to help his fellow man. My point is you have to care. And if you don’t care then something is wrong with you!!!
Ralf – a good effort; by being literate and quoting historical facts, you actually do reach some people. I love some aspects of the country, and agree some could be better. Help us to learn so that we don’t repeat the same mistakes. That said, no culture is perfect, always keep that in mind.
Anonymous (“Agree!” subject) – you posted the least professional comment of all. If you expect compassion and respect, you should give the same some of the time.
Ralf,
If it were not for the USA, EVERYONE would be speaking german today. So, learn your f***ing history.
Ass…
Well, we’re back to September 11 again, one year after the free world changed forever. The media is bombarding us with the horrible images of that day, relentlessly making us re-live the horror we felt last year. I don’t know how we can expect families of victims to be able to cope.
I was not personally affected by the events of that day, in that my family members are all still alive, and nobody I personally know was killed, or lost family. I was affected however in how I think about life, family, and freedom, as any thinking person who has been exposed to this kind of outrage would be.
I find myself much more aware of certain things. Paranoia would be a stretch in describing the change, but possibly excessive concern would not. I worry more about where my family is and what they are doing. I think more about people’s motives, and have a hard time not ascribing sinister attributes to a lot of things I see every day, from verbal exchanges between strangers to events in the news.
I find myself for the first time in my 10 year career as a consulting engineer, worrying about terrorism vulnerabilities in the projects I design. After all, I am desiging systems that will become core infrastructures in the communities where we work, and what could be a juicier terrorism target?
To add insult to injury, I’m now afraid to fly. The few times I’ve travelled by air since last year were no longer uncomfortable inconveniences like flying used to be. In the last year my air travels were worrisome hyper-alert nerve jangling experiences. Maybe that will go away in time.
I get the shakes whenever I see the shocking imagery of last September 11 on television or in print. It is a shaking that resounds throughout much of my life. I don’t want my children to have to grow up in a world of fear. I think the free world is doing a good job of focussing strength on defying this world of fear, and I have hope for the future.
I know it’s flame bait, but just to rebutt this person:
– hiroshima nuke from usa
See Pearl Harbor for how that started (we weren’t in WWII originally). And I bet all the other conquered countries thanked us plenty. Ever hear of the horrific camps the Japanese had in mainline China? Guess you forgot about that.
embargo of all muslim countries from usa
What embargo is this? The embargo to Saudi Arabia? The embargo of any of the pacific rim Islamic countries? There are no embargos that blanketly cover “muslim countries”. Or is that Iraq’s embargo, which was started when they invaded another beloved Muslim country–Kuwait? We were also brought in by Saudi Arabia who thought they were next on Saddam’s hit list.
dessert storm from usa
See above
the killing of the natives from usa
An unfortunate part of US history that we should not look lightly on. However, this is the same history of every country, in every region throughout history, not something unique to the US.
slavery of black people from usa
Same as above. As a footnote, the slave trade is alive and well in many parts of the world, but no longer exists in the USA.
vietnam war of usa
The unfortunate side effect of the US getting in the middle of a civil war. The extra casualties imposed by both US and USSR involvement could have been avoided. However, the intra-country deaths would have probably been about the same.
the payback and killing of nearly 5000 children and innocent people in afghanistan because of their chirurgical war.
5000 is higher than any number I’ve ever seen. Unfortunately some people have been killed during air strikes, and that has been minimized by technologically advanced armaments. There is no more need to carpet bomb areas to eliminate targets. Now ask yourself how many people were killed accidentally or even tortured intentionally under the Afghan civil war between the northern alliance and the taliban? Let’s see how our numbers compare.
… list is probably incomplete.
Yes, very incomplete and compeletly one sided. US history has its low points, as does every other countries. How about remembering that sometime. Fortunately you managed to bring up a few strawman arguments I keep seeing, and gave me the chance to publicly shoot them down.
While I think this country certainly has done some bad things with bad motivations, Ralf doesn’t see the whole picture on some of those things he listed. There are two sides to every conflict and the US is not always the instigator as your list would suggest.
The USA is far from perfect. But name a country that is!
Hank,
Nice reply.
I am not quite so eloquent with my words. Thank you for expressing my feelings acurately.
Why don’t you remember all the other human tragedies, like the slaughter of innocent civilians in the Jenin holocaust, and the slaughter in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres?
And what about the hundreds of thousands killed in other places, like Bosnia, China etc. etc.?
America is not the centre of the world.
and lets not forget over 500,000 Iraqui children killed directly as a result odf US foreign policy.
Television interview, “60 Minutes”, May 12, 1996:
Lesley Stahl, speaking of US sanctions against Iraq:
“We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And — and you know, is the price worth it?”
Madeleine Albright: “I think this is a very hard choice,
but the price — we think the price is worth it.”
Yes, let us also remember that America is the only country to have used Nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, chosen apparantly because of their large populations. Let us mark the day that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed too. Why only the WTC?
Why don’t you remember all the other human tragedies, like the slaughter of innocent civilians in the Jenin holocaust, and the slaughter in the Sabra and Shatilla massacres?
And what about the hundreds of thousands killed in other places, like Bosnia, China etc. etc.?
America is not the centre of the world.
We do need to remember these horrific events, and the hundreds of other like them that have occured throughout time. The 9/11 tragedy is different not in the magnitude of the horror, but in the vividness of the event. I wish all of us throughout the world would work to route out these types of vermin that perpetrate these direct and deliberate acts of horror on people. Unforunately I doubt that the majority of the people of the world have either the inclination or the ability to do so. You’re right, the US isn’t the center of the world, nor can we solve all the world’s problems.
Also let’s remember that the most vivid reminders are of the WTC, not the pentagon. Remember people from 60 nations died in that tragic event, not just US citizens. The world was put on notice, along with the US, that these cowardly underlings of a deranged billionare’s son and his misdirected advisers have the ability to exact great destruction anywhere in the world. That was the power of the message, and why the whole world feels the pain of those in the World Trade Center.
Why don’t you get presents on other people’s birthdays?
You wrote:
“You should care. If it were not for the USA, you would not be able to post anything to this web site, since the internet would not exist. ”
And hereby showed that you missunderstood my message.
We do not care about your wars, and the enemies you make.
This has nothing to do with operative systems, internet or science, and therefor should be postet under
http://poetry.com/us_tragedy/searchgroup.asp and not osnews.com.
I hope that people that remember and hold a minute of silence for the 3500 usa citizens that were cowardly murdered also hold a minute of silence for the 4000 afgan men, women and children (all civilians) that were cowardly murdered by US bombs.
The madness is not only at the fundamentalist side and sadly 3500 US citizens and 4000 afgan citizens paid this with there life. People are people, please do not forget them.
C.
Ralf – if you are going to point out the US being hippocritical (sp?), then at least name times when we were!
we gave weapons to saddam (to fight iran).
we gave weapons to osama (to fight ussr).
we give weapons to israel.
we need to stop supporting terrorists whenever it is convenient for us. we almost had the same problem with the northern alliance.
(Almost) everything you listed was an action with good intentions. Some of them were mistakes, but they were made honestly.
-concerned u.s. citizen
US threatens world peace, says Mandela
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2251067.stm
I hope that people that remember and hold a minute of silence for the 3500 usa citizens that were cowardly murdered also hold a minute of silence for the 4000 afgan men, women and children (all civilians) that were cowardly murdered by US bombs.
The US had a systemic policy of bombing civilian homes in Afghanistan? No. They were targeting military targets, and unfortunately some bombs strayed, or they were given bad intelligence by their afghan informants (wedding party incident). Compare that to the acts of any of these terrorists, who’s entire modus operendi is to target innocent people exclusively. How do these two compare? That is not to say that we should not mourn the loss of anyone in war, but there is a marked difference between innocent people being accidentally killed, and a group intentionally targetting innocent people almost exclusively.
Though the lessons to learn are so obvious in this case, they are totally ignored by the US government.
Sure it is a tragedy wat’s happend, however the worst tragedy lies in the fact that the death of so many victims has only initiated more agression, instead of a reflection of how it ever came that far.
The “War against Terror” seems only to be an agressive way to eliminate cultures that don’t think “our” way.
Ik think we all must ask ourselves what makes people get so fed up with the western culture to do such attacks. A part of the awnser can be obtained by seeing the relation Israel-Palestina. The Palestines are opressed. As a result: Desperate actions like suicide bombings. As I see it, desperate measures to get attention. Israel being a close allie of the US. . .
Go look at ourselves first, and than a bit closer the “other person” before marking him a terrorist.
BBL
The Afganistans have a more positive future thanks to removing the extreme government that once persecuted them. You could always consider that the price paid by the 4000 afgans was a price to greater freedom for their children and their children’s children.
You should look at all the afgans killed by their previous government, C.
Applause goes to Hank!! WooHOO!
now about this…
>>and lets not forget over 500,000 Iraqui children killed directly as a result odf US foreign policy. <<
i say bullshit bullshit bullshit! sadam could have let the inspectors finish. could have bought all the food they needed. could… could….. but didnt. why? well he build a huge multimillion dollar palace or two to live in. yes while these unfortunate children was starving. sadam chooses to buy weopons not food. live in luxury at the expense of his countrymen. but i guess some people are haters no matter what evidence is given them. dont feel bad when you are down and need help we will still help you. who else will do that?
David Adams – this site is not USAOSNews.com
It is OSNews.com
It is not a US site.
Are the thousands of Japanese who died by means of the nuclear bomb worth less than the Americans?
Just had to respond to these.
– hiroshima nuke from usa
Only after days of dropping leaflets warning the people that it was coming. Yes this was tragic, but this was also at a time of war.
– embargo of all muslim countries from usa
We buy fuel from Muslim coutries, don’t we?
– dessert storm from usa
You would rather have had let a homocidal maniac (Saddam) have his way?
– the killing of the natives from usa
Yup, big mistake in the past. We’ve made efforts to reconcile these actions.
– slavery of black people from usa
Sold to us by the black slave owners in Africa. Man, the majorty of the world’s cultures accepted slavery at that time, why only blame the USA? If it wasn’t for our great example of emancipation and the realization of civil liberties, I’m sure a lot of countries would still have slave ownership.
– vietnam war of usa
How is that even relavant?
– the payback and killing of nearly 5000 children and innocent people…
Yup, if innocent blood was shed, our government is as guilty as the terrorists who shed blood here.
But this rememberance of 9/11 here in the USA is not saying that our loss was more tragic than the loss of anyone else. Nor is it downplaying any of our past mistakes. And if you want to bring up all that instead, then your heart is in the wrong place. To all of those who say “please don’t post this stuff here” and “let’s keep it proffessional”, fine if you don’t want to mourn this day, but what right do you have to stop those of us who do??
Just skip over this post if you don’t like it. Respect the feelings your fellow man, and let him remember his tragedies, even if you don’t share his sorrow.
That’s all….
Sept 11 was a truly horrible event, no matter how you look at. Utterly condemnable. I think we all agree on that one. My condolences to those who were affected.
That said, Americans seriously need to re-evaluate the way they do things. Americans are very nice people on the whole, but their government is a global bully. It is uncaring, ruthless, dictatorial, and totally self-centered. Through its policies, it inflicts tons of misery on millions of people outside the USA every single day. In my opinion, the current administration is as worse as it can ever get. Even europeans don’t like americans much, public posturing notwithstanding.
Anyway, the first step to peace and security is to be in good terms with your neighbors. You cannot have security if you have so many people gunning after you.
and lets not forget over 500,000 Iraqui children killed directly as a result odf US foreign policy.
Let’s not forget that the entire involvement in Iraq began with Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. Let us also not forget that the no-fly zones are the direct result of Saddam intentionally gassing his own people, let alone the attrocities he directed his army to commit directly during the Iran/Iraq war and the invasion of Kuwait. In all these cases the Iraqi citizens are innocent bystanders, however lets not forget who the true catalyst for these events were.
Yes, let us also remember that America is the only country to have used Nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, chosen apparantly because of their large populations. Let us mark the day that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed too. Why only the WTC?
We do mark the anniversary of Hiroshima, as well as Pearl Harbor. Let’s also not forget the casualty estimates for a land invasion of Japan had the death toll in the millions on both sides. Compare that to the death toll from the two atomic bombs. I’d say its the lesser of two evils, an unfortunate one at that however.
Who in the world do you think that made the fundamentalists what they are today? Yes, the USA. As long they were murdering democratic nationalists ( who wanted to end a (neo) colonial regime), communists, unions people, teachers, and so on there was no problem.
Terrorist were trained, financed and protected by the US and they were called heroes (we all remember rambo3).
But now it came back as a boomerang. If you learnt someone how to make a bomb, please do not complain when they make them explode.
The only sad part is that no CIA or Al Qaida were killed, but civilians (in the USA and Afganistan) paid the price of dirty politics.
C.
Amen…lets stop funding all of these third world regimes. Something we should have stopped long ago. Lets instead fund the building up of the economies of legitimate governments throughout the world, and let the facisist, dictatorial and fundamentalist ones fall to the wayside. This has to be done across the board too however, so no funding from any of the western governments, china or russia either.
who are you to judge what people did in the past? they had options and picked the best in a time of WAR. people die in WARS. thats the way it happens.
Which GOD would that be? The christian god? the muslim god?
Sept. 11th boils down to 1 thing: the whole “my god is true
and your god is fake and you are evil” ideology that most
religions have. Maybe Sept. 11th wouldn’t have had to happen
if everyone in this world who’s religious would grow up and
drop the baggage of their outdated ridiculous ancient
superstitions. Religion != morality or goodness. At some
point we have to wake up and put away these childish things
for good. It’s the 21st century for cripes sake. Ugh!
Hank
…and “Saddam” began with USA.
nice time to rethink the past and present “holy” (eye to eye) politics.
or the neverending spiral will continue forever.
—-
P.S.: German is a good language.
“The Afganistans have a more positive future thanks to removing the extreme government that once persecuted them. You could always consider that the price paid by the 4000 afgans was a price to greater freedom for their children and their children’s children.
You should look at all the afgans killed by their previous government, C.”
With all respects my friend, who do you think that armed the fundamentalists in Afganistan?
Yes, the USA. Check the archives, the cia admits it.
C.
Yes, C, in attempts to make the world what we considered a better place we’ve done some pretty stupid things. They’ve come back to bite us many, many times. In that respect I think the government has done some bad things and in many ways we’ve paid the price for it.
But so many of those attempts resulted in the greater freedoms nearly *everyone* enjoys today. Instead of looking at specific cases to back your argument, why not look at the whole of our involvment in world politics?
The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were done under wartime operations. Yes, we were at war with Japan when we dropped the bombs. And for all of you who forget, remember Japan wasn’t innocent themselves. Read your WW2 history on Manchuria, Pearl Harbor, and Unit 731 (anybody like vivisection?).
>>k think we all must ask ourselves what makes people get so fed up with the western culture to do such attacks. A part of the awnser can be obtained by seeing the relation Israel-Palestina. The Palestines are opressed. As a result: Desperate actions like suicide bombings. As I see it, desperate measures to get attention. Israel being a close allie of the US. . . <<
the palestinians want isreal GONE. isreal once offered to give them all they asked for truthfully and honestly. guess what arafat did? he walked out of the room! isreal has a right to the gaza and west bank PERIOD. read the bible. read the koran. both say the same about it. bible also predicts the current situation. and doesnt say it gets resolved either.
O.K. We have bound our wounds, mourned our dead, and taken steps to prevent these attacks in the future. The point of a terror attack is to disrupt our commerce, daily lives, and feeling of security. So to let them know how well it is working, buy a distant loved one a gift, fly there to deliver it in person, while enjoying the view of your beloved country from the tallest nearby building!
No matter what country your from, even if it has never had such an attack, taking time with a loved one to enjoy what you have is a thing we should all do more often.
Who in the world do you think that made the fundamentalists what they are today? Yes, the USA. As long they were murdering democratic nationalists ( who wanted to end a (neo) colonial regime), communists, unions people, teachers, and so on there was no problem.
Terrorist were trained, financed and protected by the US and they were called heroes
I actually agree with you for the most part on this. Too often in the past the US government has funded oppressive regimes out of political expedience. I would not lump democratic nationalists, “union people” and “teachers” into the same pile as “communists”. During the cold war we tried to contain communism, which is why we would support regimes who claimed to be anti-communist instead of letting a potentially Soviet-sympathetic government to evolve. This was categorically wrong. We could have cared less about post-colonialism, since we never got into the colony thing much to begin with. (if for no other reason than we were late to the game).
The title of your post is a sad fact, history is cruel and has always been cruel. We should all concentrate on that, rather than try and beat up just on the US for its sore points throughout history. You would be hard pressed to name a single country or civilization that does not have its share of attrocities and short comings.
They did finish inspections.
The claims of mass destruction weapons are ‘pathetic’.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/middle_east/2243627.stm
Is Iraq a threat to America… or Israel?
“””Yes, let us also remember that America is the only country to have used Nuclear weapons on two civilian cities, chosen apparantly because of their large populations.”””
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they _weren’t_ excessively populated by civilians. Both had already been firebombed and a good chunk of civilian population had already moved away from the city. If the targets were picked purely to kill people, they would’ve been more along the lines of Kyoto and Yokohama. That doesn’t make it right, but the bombing of Dresden was worse and far less justified and did almost nothing to end the War.
OSNews began this thread. So, it is part of OS News.
Today is a good day to remember all who have died due to violence and war. Apparantly, the government of my country, the USA, is incapable of responding to an event like 9/11 except to increase the violence and killing. That saddens me greatly. And the government’s pounding the war drums relentlessly now. I fear the violence and death has only just begun.
I also think we can take some time to remember that computer operating systems, the object of our enthusiasm, are used as weapons to kill in both modern warfare and terrorism. They were not intended for that but, like all technology, ends up as a tool of death and destruction. We do live in a global village now. To go bomb some other country is like me, here in Ohio, going over and bombing my neighbors in Indiana. All violence and war is irrational. Yet still we persist in it. No country or people are innocent. Everywhere in the world, human beings kill each other. It is insane.
I have the memorial at Shanksville on TV. It was very nice, quiet, meditative, but then Bush got up and started pounding the drums…it never ends.
Chile: 30 000 people dead
Argentina: 100 000 people dead
Their crime? They voted for a regime that someone in Washinton didn’t like. What freedom are we talking about.
The USA government talks only of freedom when they can exploit that nation. What freedom do they talk about when the nations them self can not forge their own future with the approval of Uncle Sam (and the multinational?).
I’m an historian and can give you many many examples. What right has the USA to stick his head everywhere en kill thousands or thousands (check the history of Latin America from the 1970 until now).
Sorry, freedom is a very relative word. The real qwestion is freedom for whom.
C.
“who are you to judge what people did in the past? they had options and picked the best in a time of WAR. people die in WARS. thats the way it happens.”
Heheheh… Don’t Al-Qaida say that they are at WAR with America?
Isn’t it just that the ‘terrorist’ lacks the air force, but has the bomb?
The Iraqi issue is a personal one. Practically everybody outside the US, and a lot of sensible people inside it, do not see any need for a war. I guess the Bush family has a score to settle against Sadam as a person. They are willing to kill thousands of Iraqi people – yes, we already know thousands will be dead if there is a war – to settle a personal score against one man.
And of course, there is the all-important Oil. Sure Iraq did invade Kuwait, but was that the first time one nation invaded another?
there will be never a justification for hiroshima and nagasaki.
don’t write shit!
—
P.S.: And german is still a good language.
…To go bomb some other country is like me, here in Ohio, going over and bombing my neighbors in Indiana. All violence and war is irrational. Yet still we persist in it. No country or people are innocent. Everywhere in the world, human beings kill each other. It is insane.
I have the memorial at Shanksville on TV. It was very nice, quiet, meditative, but then Bush got up and started pounding the drums…it never ends.
I agree this whole thing is stupid. The final solution is to eliminate al Qaeda and all its funding and make sure Saddam doesn’t have weapons of mass destruction. We don’t necessarily need a war to do that. After that we should seek to eliminate all theocratic governments throughout the world. In the last 20 years, most wars have been fought on the grounds of the government’s religion than anything else.
That also means dismantling modern Israel as well. Since the international community made it, we can take it down too. Replace the government of the entire Israel/Palestine area with a purely secular government which truly honors religious freedom, and rename the country to something that sounds nothing like Israel or Palestine or to a combination of the two names.
If we had time, we could also stop all economic activities to all areas with oppresive, dictatorial governments, but as I said earlier, no one really cares about that unless their country’s self interest is involved (the US is not the only one).
That’s exactly it, Hank, and one of the places where our government is really corrupt. Your posts have been really excellent and well-balanced in my opinion.
Xian, gotta agree. My great-uncle was on a Japanese slave ship bound for Japan in WWII. He had survived the Battaan death march and severe torture. They were shipping him overseas to become a slave. When a US warship torpedoed the slave ship, the Japanese soldiers cut off the ladders that would have allowed my great-uncle and the other prisoners to at least escape the ship from the cargo holds. Instead the soldiers made sure that no one escaped alive. We paid restitutions to the Japanese held in internment camps. How much restitution did the Japanese governments pay for the slaves they made out of US soldiers?
This is not a rant against the Japanese. That war is over with (thank God) and both sides have, for the most part, gotten over it. But every country has a dark spot against it, including the US. It just seems that sometimes people from other countries want to make the US the whipping boy for all that’s bad in the world.
Sometimes things done with the best intentions backfire. If the USSR had been allowed to take Afganistan (without us helping Afgani rebels repel them) the Afgani people would be worse off than they are now. Granted, we should have continued to help them after the Soviet Union gave up. Nevertheless, we gave them the opportunity to set their own direction after the Soviets left. It amazes me how they’ve turned on us.
>>Which GOD would that be? The christian god? the muslim god?
Sept. 11th boils down to 1 thing: the whole “my god is true
and your god is fake and you are evil” ideology that most
religions have. Maybe Sept. 11th wouldn’t have had to happen
if everyone in this world who’s religious would grow up and
drop the baggage of their outdated ridiculous ancient
superstitions. Religion != morality or goodness. At some
point we have to wake up and put away these childish things
for good. It’s the 21st century for cripes sake. Ugh!<<
bah!
being religious doesnt mean anything. when you know God (christian there is no other
. you wont be calling people evil just because they dont know Him (and yes God defines himself as Male).
as if science has been any less cruel. wasnt it evolutionists that said africans were subhuman? apemen? wasnt it them that said the famines in the 80’s should be left to run their course? how sick and cruel!
There is no morality without God only lawlessness.
There is a lot of discussion about the USA and though I’m very tempted to give my opinion on the USA, we shouldn’t be talking about that.
What happened is that a lot of innocent people died without any reason and without any profit for anyone. I feel compassion for the families and friends of the people who died (in the USA and Afghanistan) and wish the best for everyone that is affected.
Mike: There’s nothing wrong with religion, even when it says there can be only one God. The question is: how do you treat people that have a different opinion on that subject. (I admit most religions have had very bad times as to how they treat other religions.)
I’m sure God has had enough of what we do to each other.
What did the US actually do in Yugoslavia?
…religion is the number one of human sicknesses.
it kills, it weaks, it destroys humanity, …
and lets people (or the fu***ing pope) manipulate you (or your neighboor?!?).
so please pay attention.
—
P.S. do
>>Heheheh… Don’t Al-Qaida say that they are at WAR with America?
Isn’t it just that the ‘terrorist’ lacks the air force, but has the bomb?<<
yes i agree. and they should expect their bodies to be piling up too. just remember they fired the first shot.
I wasn’t affected by the terrorist attacks on the USA 1 year ago
I wasn’t affected by the US military actions springing from it.
But we will all be affected by the world now being created. Stop the killing now.
The US is following out a self-fulfilling prophecy – ObL portrayed it as a monster which supported Israel unconditionally and posed a risk to Muslims. No action taken since 11 Sep 01 has dispelled these rumours.
More deaths. More destruction. More hatred. This could go on for a very long time.
The US faces enemies who do not share western values. They won’t go away if you kill them either, like Kenobi they will only become more powerful. The only way to protect the safety of US citizens is to be bigger than they are, and turn the other cheek.
I am a UK citizen – thanks to the gutlessness of UK premier Tony Blair we face being drawn into your dirty, illegal wars. You;re putting my country in danger as well now.
I agree, rememberance is one thing, but a media circus is another…I am attempting to get through the whole day without so much as looking at my TV, going to non tech news sites, and pretty much ignoring the mass media, because I don’t feel like dealing with it. I’d rather quietly remember a person that was spared (my gf’s father, who had a cancelled meeting in the WTC that day) and a fallen brother of my fraternity who was an eagle scout, was instrumental in the founding of my chapter at albany, and is survived by a wife and 2 sons. I think that quiet remembrance of that is worth much more than all the media can do….ever.
alpha phi omega, leadership friendship and service. http://www.apo.org
>>The question is: how do you treat people that have a different opinion on that subject.<<
i agree. is better to love even your enemies than to hate.
sometimes i think if i saw osama i could forgive him. if he kills me in the process, oh well, the rewards would be greater than revenge.
The United States is far from perfect. I agree that they *generally* have good intentions, but good intentions cannot justify evil actions, or a bad foreign policy.
Humanity as a whole has made some progress towards freedom and enlightenment, but there is much more to go before we reach those goals, or even full understanding of those concepts. The U.S. will find out the hard way that you cannot protect freedom by restricting freedom. Freedom and safety are not two separate values that need to be balanced, but two complementary values that go hand-in-hand. Restricting freedom and individual rights puts American citizens at greater risk, not less.
Personally, all this patriotic crap makes me ill. Are people being “patriotic” to a worthless piece of cloth (i.e. nationalistic), or are they really patriotic to the ideals of freedom and equality that the U.S. flag is supposed to stand for? I would hope that it’s the latter, but it is obviously not for some people.
fdf,
I didn’t mean the German language was bad, just that it would be bad to be under the rule of the “Third Reich” ( did I spell that correctly?)
I would like to insert a few of my thoughts on the previuos statements.
1.) USA drops bombs on Japan. Yes this was one motherf*cker of a bomb, and killed and ruined a exceptionally huge amount of live, however, it was after the Germans had surrendered and our forces and the allied forces were getting tired. President Harry S. Truman, did not want to see more American lives lost. There are some estamites that we would have killed more lives if we hadn’t dropped the bomb because the Japenese didn’t have a comprable ground force, and the Japenese would not surrender (the whole die for honor and country thing). We did it to END a huge war, not start one.
2.) What f*cking embargo? We have trade with Saudia Arabia (although my personal belief is they will screw us over big time soon). We have trade with Pakistan. Can’t think of too many others, well, because they don’t have a damn thing we want, they are mostly 3rd world sone age countries…
3.) Desert Storm. That was actually a pretty cool war. Iraq had the 3rd largest army at the time in the world, and we reduced it to nothing in about 42 days. I think I read somewhere that Iraq had on the order of 5-7 Million troops, after the war Iraq only had like 300,000. Anyway, back to the point, Iraq hostily invaded Kuwait, and probably would have tried marching to Isreal.
4.)The killing of natives. Yes this was a bad thing the europeans did (remember most natives were killed prior to the English colonies, and Spain actually MURDERED the most.) O.K. More natives were DIRECTLY KILLED by NATIVES, however, the EUROPEANS influenced the tribes to fight, and supplied guns and horses. There are estamistes that there were around 45 Million Natives in N. and Central America at the time Columbus came, the largest, was in Mexico City where there were roughly 20 Million people, most all were killed by rival tribes, who recieved guns from Spain, and the remaining were killed by Spain.
5.) At the time slavery was nearly universally accepted. The mindset of the Europeans who started the Slave Triangle was that blacks were truly inferior humans, just above an animal, of course modern science can prove this wrong, but they actually BELIEVED that they were not doing anything wrong.
6.)Vietnam. Please, we lost close to 55,000 American, I don’t want to hear this weak argument, pluse, we were trying to rid the region of communism.
7.) 5,000 afghan dead from US bombs. But gues what, 5,000 lost and Millions now have freedom…women can finally go to school, and work. I saw a clip on CNN or MSNBC in Kabul, a student at the University (which was previously closed) said, “Thank you your Majesty Presiden Bush.” Now thats pretty powerful and convicing to me about the GOOD we have done in that f*cked up region.
8.) Israel (sp?). The US relations with Israel IS religiuos, the bible describes the creation of the Israel state, (1967), which was backed by the US. The bible also describes that in the end the WORLD will be in a war against Israel and it’s ONE ALLIE (sp?), the US is the only allie of Irael…could recent events maybe setting the stage for Revelations???? Just some food for thought.
I used to work in the World Financial Center’s South Tower. A building right next to the World Trade Center. Fortunately I took that day off.
I had about a dozen friends who worked on the 85th floor of the World Trade Center, fortunately they all made it out and are alive today.
I guess I’m a very lucky guy with very luck friends…
I walk by ground zero sometimes, a lot of progress has been made etc…
Peace
yc
Israel (sp?). The US relations with Israel IS religiuos, the bible describes the creation of the Israel state, (1967), which was backed by the US. The bible also describes that in the end the WORLD will be in a war against Israel and it’s ONE ALLIE (sp?), the US is the only allie of Irael…could recent events maybe setting the stage for Revelations???? Just some food for thought.
Please! This makes as much sense as that Muslim cleric saying that the Koran predicts the fall of the US in 2004. It’s people’s belief like this that leads to the oppresion of people because of their religion.
Working with your assumption, that means we can prevent the world from ending by having the US stop being an ally of Israel. Then your prophecy disintegrates and I guess Jesus can’t come back again. See how much sense this whole argument makes?
I’m tired of all of this anti-American bullshit floating around everywhere. Ingrates.
Here’s the facts:
If you live in Western Europe – The ONLY reason you are not speaking German today is because AMERICAN soldiers, with *minimal* help from what remained of your pathetic armies (who fled as fast as they could from the German Blitzkrieg). Those Soldiers, AMERICAN or other, used bullets made in AMERICAN factories, fired from AMERICAN guns, perched atop AMERICAN tanks, jeeps, trucks, and planes. AMERICAN bombs leveled the cities of your German Masters, so that AMERICANS, and their AMERICAN-supplied allies could defeat Germany.
After the war, you and/or your families were supplied with AMERICAN grown food, and your entire economic infrastructure were rebuilt with AMERICAN money.
During the cold war, your pathetic governements were financially supported with aid from AMERICA, and your meager armed forces were greatly supplemented with AMERICAN troops to protect you from the Soviet Union and her sattelites. Those AMERICAN troops spent AMERICAN dollars in your pathetic countries to further enhance and stimulate your economies.
The majority of you are welcomed by me to go fuck yourselves. When your pathetic countries have a problem, I’m sure they will come running to AMERICA, as they have for nearly the last hundred years. God can only hope that someone here will remember the sentiments of the people of your nations, and say no to you the next time your pathetic nations need help.
In retrospect, we should have left Europe a pile of rubble, or at the very least made every country a territory of the United States. Oh, wait – you pretty much are.
Bite Me. (and edit if you must)
I only said that we are the only ally of Israel right now, things could change and another country could be the ally of God’s choosen people, but I kink of doubt it.
You conveniently forget that Adolf Hitlers armies withdrew from the embarkation points for the invasion of England some months before Pearl Harbour and the entry of the US into WW2
We acknowledge without quibble that the destroyers and materials provided under Lend-Lease were invaluable however these materials were SOLD to the UK and we had to repay in full. Roosevelt was clearly in support of us but didn’t commit full scale til’ after Pearl Harbour.
The UK is a friend of the US – the primary duty of friends is to be wise counsel – especially when they believe that something is WRONG.
Well said. I agree completely.
“That was actually a pretty cool war”
I’d like to know, what exactly is a cool war ?
“Iraq had the 3rd largest army at the time in the world, and we reduced it to nothing in about 42 days. I think I read somewhere that Iraq had on the order of 5-7 Million troops”
Well, you must have read bellicist propaganda. Iraq has never had the third army in the world, that’s bullshit. Think : USA, Russia, China, France… that’s already more than three countries.
Hell yeah!
You know it just occured to be that more advancement in scinece, math, medicine, philantropy (i misspelled that one), technology, government, and just about any other subject you can think of since the creation of the United States of America. Think about it the airplane, the automible, the nuclear bomb and other nuclear uses, the electronic computer (the englishman Charles Babbage designed the first mechanical computer- not counting the abucus). You know, if it weren’t for the good ol’ USA all jackasses in Europe and Asia, and especially the middle East would still be walkin around shooting everybody up, what inhumane barbarism.
1.) USA drops bombs on Japan. … . President Harry S. Truman, did not want to see more American lives lost. …
Yes. American lives. That’s why he destroyes to the ground to CITIES where CIVILIANS lived. Oh yes, massmurder to spare AMERICAN lives. Please …
2.) What f*cking embargo? …
The one that’s responably for the dead of 300 000 iraqui children.
3.) Desert Storm. That was actually a pretty cool war.
… Iraq hostily invaded Kuwait, and probably would have tried marching to Isreal.
A damn pretty war if you watched on cnn. Please don’t be ignorant. Innocent people were killed. And yes, I can write an essay on kuweit if you want me to (tip: Iraq province that were stolen by british petrol because there was lot of oil).
4.)The killing of natives. Yes this was a bad thing the europeans did. … . There are estamistes that there were around 45 Million Natives in N. and Central America at the time Columbus came, the largest, was in Mexico City where there were roughly 20 Million people, most all were killed by rival tribes, who recieved guns from Spain, and the remaining were killed by Spain.
As matter of fact there were 100 and only 10% survived.
5.) At the time slavery was nearly universally accepted. …
Peep, Wrong. It wansn’t universally accepted and many people were opposed. But slavery meant lots of money, like drugs and wapons (nr 1 and 2 trade today) are nowadays.
6.)Vietnam. Please, we lost close to 55,000 American, I don’t want to hear this weak argument, pluse, we were trying to rid the region of communism.
What gives the USA the right to go around the world killing thousands of people because they want to give THEIR nation an other direction. The USA soldiers were killed by the population that defend themself from the invation. The soldiers shouldn’t have been there in the first place. The sad part: boys get killed while suits became riched by selling arms …
7.) 5,000 afghan dead from US bombs. But gues what, 5,000 lost and Millions now have freedom…women can finally go to school, and work. …
Al Qaida says the same about the 3500 usa citizens that were murdered. For the record: the USA put the fundamentalist in power in Afganistan. Wether you din’t knew that or you’re very cynical.
8.) Israel (sp?). The US relations with Israel IS religiuos, the bible describes the creation of the Israel state, (1967), which was backed by the US. The bible also describes that in the end the WORLD will be in a war against Israel and it’s ONE ALLIE (sp?), the US is the only allie of Irael…could recent events maybe setting the stage for Revelations???? Just some food for thought.
Lol. The bible. So you think that all non christian should been stoned. I don’t mind if you use the bible in your personal live, but using the “holy” book to justify the massacres of Israeli soldiers …
C.
No, the the Third Best, THE THIRD LARGEST! Read the whole sentence and you would know that.
“You know, if it weren’t for the good ol’ USA all jackasses in Europe and Asia, and especially the middle East would still be walkin around shooting everybody up, what inhumane barbarism. ”
Hmm… Really? Especially since the Arabs laid the foundation of modern mathematics? They ‘invented’ the concept of zero, without which, no binary, without which, no cpmputers?
Your reasoning is quite poor..
Some of you said: ” I don’t want my children to live in fear”. So are a lot of children’s in country considered as “Outlaw” by USA alone.
Who remember the poor Kuweitian girst, telling to the media how she was raped by Iraki soldiers, and the baby taken out of a safe place on hospital, after Irak invaded Kuwait?
Bush recalled this 3 times when he asked to the gov money for the war. And now, it is known that these fact were invented by “Hill and Knowlton”, a “information” agency…
Was Bush manipulated, or did he asked the media to be manipulated?
Similar things could be said about the Serbia bonbing, where USA, and NATO, acted without the UNO permission.
How many childrens around the globe are afraid of USA bonbing?
In Rwanda, CIA warned that if USA soldiers left the country, there will be a big massacre. The soldiers left, and the massacre was done.
What do you think about the embargo ove Cuba? Castro wanted to free Cuba from some big USA industry. It’s only when USA really tried to isolate Cuba that he was forced to turn to the soviet.
“Practically everybody outside the US, and a lot of sensible people inside it, do not see any need for a war”
Completely false. Saddam Hussein was involved to some extent in the Sept 11 attacks. It has been confirmed that he met with Atta before the attack, and he has been linked financially to Al Qaeda. Not to mention the fact that he has killed millions of his own people by using chemical and biological weapons. Add to this the fact that he is strongly persuing nuclear weapons, and there is no doubt that he plans to use them when he gets them. Sitting around and doing nothing about it would be a grave mistake for the US and the world as a whole.
And to all of the anti-american posts, all I can say is that you owe the US a debt a gratitude for our contributions.
-G
Hmm… Really? Especially since the Arabs laid the foundation of modern mathematics? They ‘invented’ the concept of zero, without which, no binary, without which, no cpmputers?
The concept of zero that you are speaking about has nothing to do with the binary number system. We’ve had different numerical bases before the concept of zero, binary included. The power of the concept of zero goes far beyond the symbol, and we really take the whole concept for granted today. Furthermore the invention of zero actually has a rather windy and convoluted history, and wasn’t simply invented by ancient arab scholars, although they played a very large part. A great book an this is titled The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero by Robert Kaplan. This is very informative but also very dry.
Let us also remember that human technology has gone through many great explosions. We shoudn’t negate the contributions to technology, language, art and the sciences from all the great civilizations of history: Egypt, China, Greece, Rome and far many more.
“And to all of the anti-american posts, all I can say is that you owe the US a debt a gratitude for our contributions”.
You know what’s really sad? 11th september. A lot of people see that as pay back time. Guess why.
Very sad and even more sad: understandable
C.
Ralf,
I think you are missing the point. The point is to remember innocent people that were butchered by barbarians. It is a sentiment that should be extended to more not less incidents.
Yes US policy is not perferct but in the grand scope of things, it is a lot better then previous world powers
You forget that colonialism was driven from the world with great help from the US. That is right. The US put enormous pressure on the Europeans, mainly french and british, to free their colonies after WW II. Those colonies include most modern day arab nations.
You want poor policy. Why not mention iraqi murder of kurds, with chemical weapons. Why not talk about the turkish who tried to exterminate the Armenians. how about the packistani/bangladesh genocide of hindus. Why not mention that in sudan the nothern-based muslims are commiting a holocaust against the christians. Do you want more? How about what the Russians are doing this moment in Chechyna? Have you ever read about Syria’s reaction to its domestic terrorist problem? They leveled cities and killed thousands. How about japanese actions in their occupied terrorities during WW II. Do you think the japanese were nice and friendly to the chinese? Think again.
You seem also to forget that the US helped bring down the horrible regimes in Germany, Italy, and Japan. The US funded the rebuilding of Europe after WW II. The US also kept the rather cruel Communist regime of the USSR in check for the last 50 years and helped drive the Russians from afghanistan. The US saved countless muslims from ethnic cleansing in the balkans. The US tried to help bring order to somalia so that food could be delivered. The US is the prime funder of the United Nations. The US gives countless billions to help developing nations through the world monetary fund and in direct aid to places like Egypt.The US makes humanitarian food drops to help the starving in afghanistan.
Is there room for improvement? Yes. But you really need to get a clue.
>>You conveniently forget that Adolf Hitlers armies withdrew from the embarkation points for the invasion of England some months before Pearl Harbour and the entry of the US into WW2<<
Yes, for the Invasion of Russia. The Germans (incorrectly) assumed that peace would eventually ensue between Britain and Germany.
Sorry for the personal question.
Have you ever been outside the US? That the only explanation I can think of if you believe what you are saying.
C.
“You know what’s really sad? 11th september. A lot of people see that as pay back time. Guess why.
Very sad and even more sad: understandable
”
The problem, C, is that not “a lot of people” saw that as payback. A lot of people (the majority) saw that as an unjustifyable act. Period.
What’s very sad is that your blinders must be permanently attached to your head. Open your eyes and look at the whole picture.
It’s fairly funny that all the europeans are talking trash in here. Wake up, what were the crusades? who fought it and where? As far as all of you being a bunch of peace loving tree huggers just stop. You came up with the death penalty and torture. Every country there had no problem invading and taking land for itself in the new world along with slaughtering anyone who got in the way.
What happened on 9/11 was unthinkable and everyone in the world should pay their respects. Because if you don’t and just think it a problem for america then your gonna be next. They will always find someone else to hate, it’s the nature of the beast.
To all the other posters here who gave praise to america god bless.
To everyone else, kiss my ass!!!!
I do not condone the actions of either my government in many situations (I’m a US citizen) nor do I condone such a callous attack on civilians — from any source.
I spent my 9/11 with an instructor at our school lounge who is an ex-marine. The look on his face was sheer horror. “This is going to get messy”, he said. I couldn’t agree more.
I live by the Pittsburgh International Airport, walking out into the sunny blue-skyed afternoon, looking up, and hearing the erie silence is something I’ll never forget. At any given point in time prior to 9/11 there were at least 3 planes you could see in the sky, and almost always a hum from plan engines in the air.
It is my personal belief that 9/11 has become the government and medias little play-thing. They’ll use this to further their own greedy agendas as long as the public allows them to. The thing that scares me is how blind the US public is to the manipulation that is taking place.
To the Poster of the story, your wife’s concern that CNN may have been a target was completely off-target. The MEDIA is a terrorists #1 weapon, physical attacks are #2.
Personally, I’m growing sick from the massive amounts of for lack of a better word I’ll call propaganda that is spewing into american homes. Suddenly, it’s us vs. the world. Either join with us or die! I don’t buy it.
The internet has definately helped me to view the world as the world, not just the US and everyone else.
I don’t think Mandella had it right, although I respect him greatly. It’s not the US that’s the greatest threat, it’s nationalism. Check your history books – high nationalism == war.
I was not alive durning Vietnam, no one consulted me about the Gulf war, I in no way authorized an embargo against Iraq, I had _nothing_ to do with those. I wasn’t even able to vote when those things took place. Don’t try to make me pay for the mistakes made by people I’ve never met, and for situations I had no contol over.
First of all let me just say that ofcourse it is a tradigy for all the people in WTC that say, and a big good going to all the firefighters and policemen etc. who helped out that day,but….
Lets not get all caught up in the idea that US is the good guys and osama the bad guy. Nothing is ever that black and white.
USA has done some real nasty things in its past and continues to do so….
So lets set some things straight:
* there is only 2 Ground Zeros and that is HIROSHIMA and NAGASAKI. please don’t try and generate sympathy votes by using that name in vanity.
* 3500 is a fairly low number, if measured against the innocent lives that the us has taken in its quest for money and power. lets do some math:
— Hiroshima: at least 300.000 people dead because the usa could not wait a couple of weeks to win the war.
— Nagasaki: at least 300.000 dead because the usa could not wait a couple of weeks to win the war.
— Irak: 500.000 CHILDREN killed for the sake of cheap oil and revenge (we all remember the 60. minutes interview)
— Afganistan: several thousands civilians dead because of “stray” bombs and “mis”information.
— All the native amaricans
— All the black slaves.
* The US continues to behave badly not only against others but also against itself
— By fighting the kyoto agreement, the Bush administration has clearly told the world that it does not care about the environment.One thing is potical opinions, but running away from past promisses is called laying and cheting…
— This “War against teorism” is plainly a cover for revenge and non-resional thinking. Not only does is an innocent country attacked, but any POW are declared not-POW so that they have no chance of a fair trial
— In the cover from “War against Teorism” bush seeks finish Saddam. This is mainly a matter of pried as this is something they failed at the last time, and moreover it is completly irrational since it would leave that part of the world in caos.
When thinking about the teorist in the planes remember this: ONE MANS TEORIST IS ANOTHER MANS FREEDOM FIGTHER.
“Have you ever been outside the US? That the only explanation I can think of if you believe what you are saying.”
In fact, i am the son of a european and travel there frequently as well as to south america. The problem here is that some of us know history and some do not.
My point is simple, the US has done some horrible things which should be corrected. There is room for much improvement particularly towards the middle east. I am particularly disturbed by the impact of US corporations upon the developing world (read slave labor) and think Gw’s war on Iraq is really an oil grab. In fact oil companies in general have entirely too much influence and the US has not defened human rights enough. US pollution is also a major problem, the US after all creates most of the worlds pollution.
However, the US has done some very kind things as well. mention both and understand the context of why some of those horrible things were done.
The other point is that the alternatives to US world leadership have proven to be worse or perhaps you’d like to live under a world dominated by the mullahs in iran or the wonderful government of china. Wait no you must want to live under Russian rule. Try out chechyna why don’t you. As for the European Union. i find it interesting that they sat back and did very little to stop genocide in teh balkans. That is the second time they’ve let genocide pass with little action. Kind or makes you wonder about them Europeans.
The point is simple. The US is not all bad nor is it all good but look at the whole picture.
Here:
http://www.io.com/~patrik/gulfwar2.htm
Old invalid points we have already covered, p.s. we’ll kick your ass too, then sit down to huge banquet of food, and probable won’t even eat it all. refer to section 61-75 for rebuttle against your arguments.
>>and lets not forget over 500,000 Iraqui children killed directly as a result odf US foreign policy. <<
1. What did Saddam do for these 1/2 million children? He doesn’t seem to be going without. What did Saddam do about the people in Kuwait?
2. Japan attacked the U.S. not the other way around. When you pick a fight, be prepared for the worst.
3. The U.S. is the center of the world for many of us. If you have your own tragedy to remember, then by all means setup a memorial for it and let us all post comments. The people here at OSNEWS are free to acknowledge what they want. They can’t be expected to wash the laundry for the entirity of human history.
4. I think the U.S. is being extremely restrained. We should start keeping the lands we have to fight in! Like other countries have and would.
I’m gonna single you out but their are other posters who have made similiar false comments about america dropping the bomb. Let’s just get it straight once and for all. If it wasn’t for the SNEAK ATTACK on perl harbor and the fanatical way in which the japs fought to the death then maybe we wouldn’t have dropped the bomb. BUT that was almost 50yrs ago and since niether you nor I was alive you can’t make a judgement on it. NOONE knew at the time what the bomb would really do except for a select few in the government. So deal with it, it was one of the best moves this country has ever done.
ha
> 2. Japan attacked the U.S. not the other way around. When you pick a fight, be prepared for the worst.
Recent discoveries on US submarines might prove you wrong there, but ofcurse that nothing the us will tell you freely..
Well a few things:
* Recent discoveries of us subs, may prove that the us was planning to attack first.
* Histori lessons has taught me that, the US would have won maybe 1-2 month later, so there was no need to throw the bomb
* If tyhere were need, then I am sure japan would surender after only 1 bomb, no need to throw 2
* Correct that very few knew the effects of the bomb, but the ones making the decision knew!! At was tested…
* If you really think that it was one of the best moves the US has made, then i rather surender to hitler or taliban.
“The U.S. is the center of the world for many of us”
As they say… “Give us a break!”
First of all, on this, the anniversary of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, I would like to express my condolences to the people of the world who lost loved ones during these attacks.
To comment on the evilness of America. Yes, there is evil in the US. I think our government is corrupt and no longer serves the people as it is supposed to (having become subserviant to large corporations and personal greed and being drunk with power).
However, in general, the people of the US are good people and the US does help other countries of the world quite a bit. I also find most of the world, and interestingly enough mostly the people who have recieved the most help from us, to be completely ingrateful for all that the US has done for them.
Sixty years ago, when Europe needed help, the US sent aid to countries like England and France. Once Japan drug us into the war, we sent soldiers over, my grandfather included, to Europe and won the war against tyranny for the victim countries there. We could have just fought with Japan, but we didn’t. We helped our friends.
Now, when we are the target, France (who haven’t had a military victory in over 100 years) and England, who are supposed to be our friends; puss out. What I’m seeing from Europe now is nothing but snobbery and a ripe bunch of poltroons.
In my opinion, the US doesn’t need Europe involved if we go after Saddam. They are insignificant at this point. Their help is welcome, but not neccessary.
Finally, there have been several religous remarks as well as anti-religious remarks. All I can say, is that if the people talking about the Bible’s prophecies are correct, then I’m going to go stand in the crowd that is pro-Israel. As I understand it, the term from the Bible, “Lord of Hosts” actually means “God of War”. If that’s the case, I want to be on the winning side.
“”Have you ever been outside the US? That the only explanation I can think of if you believe what you are saying.”
In fact, i am the son of a european and travel there frequently as well as to south america. The problem here is that some of us know history and some do not.”
Lol. I have a master degree in history. Funny that you mention it.
“In fact, i am the son of a european and travel there frequently as well as to south america.”
I hope you talked there with the families of the thousands of people that were turtured or murdered over they by a regime that was put in power by the USA.
Oh yes, I speak spanish and lived under the fascist regime of Pinochet (put into power by the USA). Yes, I know what I’m talking about. Sadly enough (If I may recall you 30 000 people “disappered” in Chile en even 100 000 in Argentina. Oh yes, I can talk to you about Brazil, Peru, Bolivia, etc.).
The point is simple. The US is not all bad nor is it all good but look at the whole picture.
I do, that’s why I learnt when studying to become an historian. That’s why I don’t hate or blame USA citizens and believe there’s a lot of great things in that country. I’m no racist nor narrow minded, as matter of fact I have friend in the USA.
However closing my eyes to the attrocities of the USA *government* isn’t an option. I hope one day most USA citizens will realize cnn just tells lies and what your wanted to hear when at the same time people suffer from USA intervention (militar, economic or secret).
Regards and strength in those difficult times ( that’s what I would said to the afgans too trying to cope with the massacre of 4000 people)
C.
Regards,
C.
> Old invalid points we have already covered, p.s.
> we’ll kick your ass too, then sit down to huge
> banquet of food, and probable won’t even eat
> it all. refer to section 61-75 for rebuttle
> against your arguments.
I have read the comments in sections 61-75, and have found little more than whining about “please don’t ruin our propagada”.
please dont remind us of vietnam, we lost 50.000 men trying to invade another country.
Oh, and lets not forget the quest against communisiem, which was part of the reason for the vietnam (thank god you lost that one)
BTW: please try and kick my ass if you like, and lets see if you amount to more than parades and showtunes.
Ummm… the US didn’t drop both bombs at the same time. The Japanese could have surrendered before the second bomb.
And those ‘discoveries’ were pre-planning. Right now the US has plans for attacks on Russia, China, Iraq, and I’m sure some of our Allies as well. There are teams that constantly run scenarios and create plans whether we’re in a war, close to being in a war, or in flat-out peace. There are people in the military that run nothing but war scenarios for a living. That’s been going on forever. It’s why we have a prepared military.
History might teach you that the Japanese would have surrendered, but understanding the warrior culture of the generals in charge at the time would have given you more accurate insight. They would not have surrendered unless we did what we did.
Again, please learn all sides of the story before jumping to conclusions.
To all those people who say that everyone owes the US:
Don’t forget that we wouldn’t have won our independence from England without the help of France…YES, FRANCE. No one likes france. But everyone should kiss france’s ass, by your logic, because they were instrumental in a war like 8 bajillion years ago.
Countries change. This isn’t the u.s. that won WW2. This is the u.s. that supported the Shah of Iran. How was that even any of our business?
Maybe next election the u.s. might vote in someone based on his politics, rather than just letting the media decide for them.
Media and religion are the real evils here.
-concerned
BTW, we weren’t trying to take over Viet Nam. That was our problem. We were ‘policing’ and not allowed (by our own military) to gain ground. That’s why we lost so many people and why we never won.