“Anyone wondering why MS execs Steve Ballmer and Brian Valentine are so bent out of shape about Linux should check out SuSE’s most recent distro, 8.1, for insight. For a desktop PC or small-biz network it’s already miles ahead of Win98-SE and ME and closing fast on XP for ease of installation and use by first-timers.” Read the review at TheRegister.
SuSE 8.1 Illustrates Microsoft’s Fear
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
This fellow still hasn’t figured out that one can easily disable the URL popup menu feature (which I dislike as well) simply by unchecking the Enable Actions Menu on the klipper icon.
i think i’ve seen him complain about this several times over the years and he’s seemingly never figured out such a simple thing.
Hah!
thank you for letting me know as well, I am trying to disable that stupid thing for 1.5 years now, as I thought it was a Konqueror “feature”.
Excuse me, but the guy was absolutely right when he said he can’t figure out how to disable that terrible feature. I didn’t know either, and I have searched on some KDE users lists and others had the exact same question. It is just NOT apparent that this is coming from Klipper. It doesn’t even make sense for Klipper to intervene with the system in such a way. That “feature” should be turned off by default.
I wonder how long others have been in this boat. To me, it seemed immediately obvious that the menu was coming from klipper since it always appears right in the vicinity of the klipper tray icon.
Klippy is wonderful (it’s about reason No. 3 I prefer KDE) but the Actions menu should absolutely be disabled by default.
I wonder if someone has brought this up on kde-usability. (I don’t frequent there.)
He actually isn’t complaining about the klipper popping up here, he claims it’s not even doing that right:
I’ve always found it irritating but at least it always worked properly. But now, when you select a URL the thing copies it wrong, so that “http://theregister.co.uk“ is mangled as “openURL(http://theregister.co.uk, new-window)” in the browser’s address field
Which would certainly make it more annoying than when it works properly.
hey eugenia and gang,
The writer said that “But now, when you select a URL the thing copies it wrong, so that “http://theregister.co.uk“ is mangled as “openURL(http://theregister.co.uk, new-window)” in the browser’s address field, which of course puts a stop to all the fun.” Not that klipper itself was annoying.
RTFM works great for KDE, see http://docs.kde.org/ for the master help index. three clicks to get there:
– http://www.kde.org
– ‘documentation’
– ‘program documentation’
Linux has arrived, when we are reduced to quibbling over the little things. This is a good thing!
>RTFM works great for KDE
Only when you know where to look for. The fact that myself and lots of otheres *did not know* that this comes from Klipper, it is impossible to easily find the name for this action and search for it in the Help. Get a clue.
> Get a clue.
Get some manners! What’s the matter with you? I made a perfectly civil, helpful comment. You can dish it out, but you sure can’t take it.
“Hardware detection during the installation is every bit as good as Win-XP.”
Eh, ok … so how good is the hardware detection AFTER installation? For example, in even Win98SE (which the author says Suse is ‘miles ahead’ of), you plug in a device, a box pops up and says new hardware found, you pop in the CD, which usually comes with its own ‘easy-as-pie’ software, which is more than adequate for Joe User. So, how does Suse (and Linux in general) handle this?
Different strokes for different folks eh? Well, to each his (or her) own I say.
In a recent OSnews review, author Eugenia Loli-Queru said she found the package manager a ‘monstrosity’ but personally I think it’s the best one going.
When you suggest to me that I should “Read the F*cking Manual” like I am a kind of an idiot (on a subject that as I clearly explained it was impossible to get information, as it was not apparent that it was Klipper to blame), makes me wonder who is the one with no manners.
I am sorry if I sound rude. My comments meter allowance is high and I get irritated easily (you would do the same after 1 year running this site).
And to give an end to this off topic subject (Klipper has nothing to do with SuSE), this is the last message that I will allow regarding Klipper.
His opinion. Not mine.
I made perfectly valid points on my editorial about that package manager a month ago.
Something is *really wrong* when you have to solve dependancies on packages you want to install, during installation of the OS. Really wrong.
RTFM is a rather hostile comment, Alice. I don’t think you meant for it to be offensive, but phrasing it differently would have avoided any confusion.
>So, how does Suse (and Linux in general) handle this?
I know that Red Hat and Mandrake have a daemon that looks for new hardware in each boot up. I don’t know how SuSE does that. I am not even sure they have automatic detection, or they are relying on the user to go to the YAST2 and modify his/her hardware manually.
I disagree about the kde documents being great. I was looking for how to set the desktop to use a double click (ala windows) instead of single clicking. It took me a google search to find out that its under the mouse settings instead of look and feel. Where it is makes sense but I still think look and feel would make more sense. The site that came at the top of the list wasn’t on kde’s site, it was a message board or something.
btw I don’t think anyone who isn’t completely anti ms would listen to a thing theregister says, they’re the british slashdot imo
SuSE most definitely has a hardware detection utility that works on boot up and it works great. I changed from a PS/2 to a USB mouse and it detected it and let me configure it before finishing the boot process. Same thing when I plugged in my Zaurus. SuSE detects all new hardware better than most distros, I think.
>to find out that its under the mouse settings instead of look and feel.
Funny you mention this too!! While I had done this *many times* in the past, I had forgot where to look for, the last time I installed KDE by hand (Control Center is over populated by many option – ‘Less is better’ for desktops). And I couldn’t find it either! I couldn’t remember it! I was also trying to find it on Look&Feel. It took me about 10 minutes to find that option and after finding it, I remembered it was under the mouse options. 😮
You have no idea how long it took me to figure out how to disable that stupid url pop up feature. One day, with some time on my hands, I told myself I’m clicking on every icon until I figure it out. I really do believe that the on/off switch for that thing should be in a more obvious place (perhaps klipper options in the config panel?) and should be off by default. Another option, or an additional option, would be to have “no further URL pop-ups” checkbox right in the pop up itself, along with a informational popup if the user does turn it off (this feature can be turned back on by right-clicking the klipper icon in the….” and so on. It was the single most annoying “feature” of my RedHat 8.0 experience, which is good, considing that, in the final analysis, (note that this is NOT what I would have said BEFORE I figured out how to turn it off) it’s not really that annoying.
Erik
I just got an email from Aaron (from KDE’s Usability team) and he told me that for KDE 3.1, they have disabled Klipper’s annoying URL popup ‘feature’.
It works very well, detected my USB printer.
Yes, SuSE does detect new hardware as posted, but you can also use YaST2 to add new hardware. I don’t know if it works the exact same way, but it has that dual effect that Windows has – automatic detection and Add New Hardware in the Control Panel.
The acceleration of Linux on the desktop is getting dizzying. Red Hat came out of nowhere and blew us away and, after we argued for two days about Debian, they suddenly announce graphical install, etc. In some ways, I wonder if the race is to catch up to XP or for distros to outdo each other – both having the same effect. Incredible!
Read The Friendly Manual?
What’s offensive about that? 😉
I got it a week ago and it’s great, compared to Mandrake it’s 10 times better IMo. Seriously tehse guys gave Mandrake a 9/10 so much for an unbiased review, tehre is no way in hell Madnrake is better than RH 8 and SuSE 8.1, neither of these distros deserve more than 7.5 compared to OS X and XP imo. I still like Linux better, but I’m saying this from the point of view of a inexperienced Linux newbie.
Just about every description I read of a Linux instal claims it is close to Windows for ease of installation apart from some little problem, then they launch into the details of some techno-geek-wizardry required to make it work.
I have a typical computer made up of el cheapo components from various BrandX suppliers. Windows XP instals no problem.
Yesterday, I did an experiment in usability for the targetted desktop user market. I tried to instal a Linux distribution as if I was an end-user. None of the three distributions I tried installed correctly. The nearest was RedHat.
RTFMing would be of no use to the end-user because although the language usually looks like English, it is incomprehensible if you do not have a technical background.
Linux still has a long way to go to capture the desktop. It’s more like Win 3.1 in its instal friendliness. It doesn’t matter how good it is once installed, because if they can’t instal, they’ll never ever know.
Since when did “behind” and “ahead” switch meanings?
Nobody would get scared of Linux if all it can do is being a easy to use OS. When Windows first captured the market – it wasn’t even close to “easy to use”. They still did it.
I have been impressed in the past by RedHat’s installer and I am getting my hands on SuSE 8.1 now to see what that’s like.
Unfortunately, though, the problem for me occurs after the first boot. I’ve used plenty of Linux boxes in the past and even done installs and kernel rebuilds on 1.3.x – hardcore commandline and module stuff. I still find myself lost when it comes to trying to add new things to the base install. (It’s usually due to problems with dependencies.)
I’ve also used all the flavors of Windows from 3.0 through XP and Macs through OS9 (can’t speak to OSX, no hands-on experience yet). The installers for various versions of Linux are catching up to Windows, but the usability after you get out of the installer still suffers badly
Some of the answers on this thread I feel typify why the usability continues to suffer. When someone asks a question and the answer begins with a vague ‘RTFM,’ especially when the ‘M’ is out on a website, something needs to be simplified/made more obvious.
It is true, there is no doubt that even the biggest distros cannot yet detect and configure as well as XP can. There are many things that can stop a person cold. Your monitor may go undetected and, for example with SuSE, if you don’t know to type SaX2 to manually configure, you’re dead in the water. I think, right now, it is still the case that you’ll have the best success if you’re using a common, well established chipset, a common monitor type, etc. If you buy a distribution as a boxed package, distros like SuSE and Red Hat have excellent manuals and document how to deal with many of these common problems. And, lol, I don’t mean RTFM :-). Seriously, many of these things are very common issues that are easy to look up. Also, the distros websites will most certainly have FAQ’s and answers to common issues and, especially, be sure to check the hardware that’s supported – they almost all have that information.
I dont’ about other people but RTFM for me reads as “Read The Fine Manual”
His opinion. Not mine.
I made perfectly valid points on my editorial about that package manager a month ago.
Something is *really wrong* when you have to solve dependancies on packages you want to install, during installation of the OS. Really wrong.
Yes, that is exactly what I was referring to, opinion. Everyone has one right? It’s just interesting to see that not everyone agrees on YaST. That is why I posted my initial comment.
Datako, often what appears to be ‘techo-geek-wizadry’ are quite simple concepts made difficult by their unfamiliarity.
If you had never used windows and I told you to ‘Upgrade Direct X to the latest version’ it would appear a difficult thing to do. Familiarity tells you what directX is, how to upgrade it, where to find it, though for someone not experienced with windows this would not be so easy.
I would agree that Linux is, for a newcomer, harder to set up than windows, but much of this is due to unfamiliarity with the concepts and names. If they are new to Linux, the chances are very high that they have a number of years experience with Windows, and have unconsciously accumulated Windows specific problem solving skills that make Windows appear easier.
The converse is often true, I sometimes find myself wrestling through deep trees of menus in Windows to do tasks that take a few key presses in Linux.
The article mentions the word “re-boot” three times. In general, after installing new video drivers a reboot is not needed.
The only reason why he should have “re-booted” I can see is that SuSE Update has installed a new kernel.
Alice,
Having been a user for years, I do agree that sometimes we have to go and read the docs. BUT, here is the crunch, apart from people who do enjoy being buried in docs, MOST people just want things to work, be logical, and certainly the basic tools and utils on the desktop and browser should work.
You’ll forgive me but the RTFM attitude in relations to desktop and user issues is not acceptable. If users are having trouble, its either not obvious, or not easily workable without hitting the docs, and I tend only to hit the docs as a last resort. I think most ‘average’ users are the same. People want software that works. They want software that has a level of intuitivness about its handling and the way it works.
Its clear to me that Eugenia is beyond an average user, as is Thomas C Greene. As am I. Linux cannot live by the motto of ‘You’re so dumb, go RTFM’, and some of the key people and many of the programmers need to find a way past this very tired and old attitude that seeps through much of ‘Linux-Dom’.
Just as you expect people to dig through RTFM, I expect people who claim to provide desktops, tools, and utils to actually do so, and not provide half done tools, broken tools, or tools that are not intuitive in nature.
Linux, and many of its people need to grow up. Providing a desktop worthy of note is not easy. But falling back to ‘Go RTFM’ each time someone asks a question is something I have little time for.
Its a sad attitude that does linger through many IRC channels and areas where people could in fact be far more helpful. It seems to me that Linux and many people who like Linux have much growing up to do.
AdmV
Running KDE 3.1 CVS, the Klipper popup menu has here an entry “Disable this popup”.
Usability in Linux is no harder than in windows, like philicorda said. When I first got a PC at home, I was accustomed to Macintoshes, and found the concept of right clicking just wierd.
I know that Windows 95 took a long time for people to learn, after migrating from 3.1. I think users are tending to just become dumber. I mean I know heaps of people who initially found winXP hard to use, and that was only because it had a different theme to that of win9X. If you put effort into switching to Linux, it really isn’t all that difficult.
Besides, an average user won’t add new hardware, or install an operating system. Most will either:
A) Get the person that sold it to them to do everything
B) Get the nerdy guy / girl that lives next door to do everything
Once linux is up and running it is easy to use. In many ways it’s got advantages over windows which are so great, but windows users just don’t understand. (Just like Internet Explorer users simply don’t understand the major advantages of tabbed browsing). Things like multiple desktops, single clicking and complete configurability. People just don’t understand it, so they don’t see the point in switching.
I was once a windows user, and after switching to Linux it was only a week before I never again wanted to boot into Windows, really it’s not that hard to make the switch.
People have refered to Linux being harder to fix out of the two should an OS installation fail and you have resort to a little console bashing/registry hacking.
I imagine the only way to prove/disprove the familiarity argument is a fair test. Thus we need a computer-virgin, with no concept of Windows or Linux (not even an idea of fundamentals like the Start Menu), and two identical, fairly standard computer setups, formatted, two installation CDs (perhaps SuSE 8.1 and WinXP) and an (humane) isolation chamber.
This would be interesting test in a few ways, firstly we would find out how Linux distributions have progressed and whether they really have caught up to WinXP standards of ease-of-use. Also we would find out which OS an marketing-unbiased user would prefer.
It is a shame such an experiment is practically expensive, and more significantly, impossible — who doesn’t have knowledge of Windows to start with?
My experience with Linux is that it is fundamentally better designed, and I wonder if this would make it easier for a complete newbie to learn to fix? More likely Windows would be easier since there are just so many tutorials and helper-tools out there in Cyberspace.
User friendlyness is purely a matter of opinion. My mum couldn’t figure out scroll bars until I explained it. I don’t think windows is very user friendly when it comes to device drivers. Sure, it is supposed to work, but more often than not I have had to do something complicated to get it to work like it should.
Maybe I am in the minority but I happen to like the Linux command line and dependencies. I like configuring X, etc. Why does Linux have to compete with Windows? Why not leave Windows to the common user and leave Linux to those who want flexability and freedom?
>Having been a user for years, I do agree that sometimes we >have to go and read the docs. BUT, here is the crunch, >apart from people who do enjoy being buried in docs, MOST >people just want things to work, be logical, and certainly >the basic tools and utils on the desktop and browser >should work.
On this specific point, as technical people did anyone ever bother mailing the author of either piece of software to try and find out what was causing it and maybe even get a resolution ?
Isn’t it asking a bit much for any software to perform in a logical and obvious way? Sure for 90% of applications this is fine, but would you try and use something like Blender without reading a manual?
On a related note, what is the first thing you do if your VCR isn’t working? Dunno about you but I tend to read the manual to look for documentary help before I exacerbate the situation by randomly pressing buttons. I know it’s a little different with software, but how often do people complain about crap software without having read a manual to find out what is happening. Of course this raises the question of the quality of the manual…
I would be interested to see if you would be willing to teach someone how to use your systems.
I can take a novice user within the Windows environment quickly to the point where they can fly solo and use applications in a basic mannor.
The same cannot be said of Linux.
What is worse, is various areas, such as the file systems.
On windows it makes some sense. You have your documents and settings folder, you have programs. You have your windows installation. To the novice user, this is logical. It may not be perfect. But it is basic and easy to follow.
The same cannot be said of the linux system.
I also noticed someone made comments regarding device drivers. I do not know what planet you live on, but today nominally windows drivers are double click setup, and follow requests..
The same cannot be said for Linux drivers. You either get preloaded drivers or headaches.
The whole usability thing is where the roads part as far as how users feel. Linux users are happy with their elaborate setups. But new users, people who sit down to linux for the first time, windows users, mac users, and pretty much anyone else finds the setup difficult, if not stupid in use.
Currently the linux community can’t even decide where desktops should live, in /opt or in /usr, neither of which makes damn sense to me.
Linux was designed to be a version of Unix. You cannot just eliminate that baggage and try and claim it is all things to all men.
Apple have taken a version of Unix, and done a far better job at creating a desktop system than Linux has achieved even with its huge following and massive developer footprint.
Do you know why ? Because apple have a better feel for what a ‘User’ needs. And that comes from me, I don’t even like Apple. I much prefer Linux. But when people talk usability, they really need to get away from how usable they think the system is, and look at how usable the system really is for everyone. Just because you read the docs and found out how Klipper works, or that you spent a whole afternoon and found how to diable it, does NOT mean Klipper is working in a way that is correct. The jump through 50 hoops to do one thing is something from the past. Either adapt, change , or die.
AdmV
I think you are missing my primary point. I don’t think Linux SHOULD be like Windows. Linux provides a means to be totally flexible. I am a computer fan. I have opinions on how I want MY computer to look and behave. Windows keeps you stuck into one way of doing things. I like the command line of Linux. Like most linux users I probably spend more time at a terminal window than clicking around.
For example: I want to edit a text document.
I *could* go through the k menu to bring up KEdit. Click File-> Open and then navigate through the directory hierarchy to find the file.
but I don’t. I bring up a terminal. cd to the exact path and either kedit or pico depending on mood. I think most Linux users do the same.
Before anyone says anything, I know you can do this in windows with the command line but you and I both know it goes a lot deeper than that with pipes and gnu tools. This is the way I work, the way I want to work.
I find Linux’s GUI to be a tool… an accompliment to the command prompt. I find Window’s forced GUI to be intrusive and mostly tedius.
Linux is an alternitive OS. It shouldn’t have to be exactly like Windows. If you work like I do (you use the run dialog box to open folders rather than My Computer) then Linux is good. As it is.
philicorda,
“…often what appears to be ‘techo-geek-wizadry’ are quite simple concepts made difficult by their unfamiliarity..”
I agree, but changing to Linux is a bit like getting a car with all the controls swapped
around,the steering wheel reversd in direction. and then being told “Oh by the way, you’ll have to instal the camshafts yourself”
Linux is a much better car, but until it can overcome its initial gross unfriendliness, it is not going to take over the desktop.
No amount of pontification about its virtues will alter this. It has to perform at the first impression stage or it loses. Simple as that.
As a business user, the actual cost of Win XP and Office XP are more than outweighed by the fact that they consume less of my time (= fees not earned) compared to the huge time investment need to learn Linux.
And “…what is the first thing you do if your VCR isn’t working…” – I get my kid to fix it! I don’t have patience for unfriendly device interfaces anymore:)
> SuSE most definitely has a hardware detection utility that works on boot
> up and it works great.
I agree with the first part of your sentence, but not the second. I have a USB keyboard and mouse (Microsoft, FYI) which sUse would work properly about 20% of the time. When I would boot up sUse, sometimes it would work and other times it would not. Yes, *sometimes*.
Usually the keyboard would work but not the mouse, or vice versa. The odd thing about this is the fact that the mouse is plugged into a USB port on the keyboard. Unplugging the keyboard and replugging it in would occasionally cause both the mouse and keyboard to work fine.
Another problem I had is that when I switched the mouse to a different USB port, the mouse would be detected fine (as indicated by the red light on the mouse), but usually it would not work because KDE would not recognize that it was the mouse.
USB worked better on ’98. 😛
> USB worked better on ’98. 😛
Oh, and I would get an annoying popup window on every boot telling me that I did not have an AT keyboard installed…
> I agree, but changing to Linux is a bit like getting a car with all the
> controls swapped
around,the steering
> wheel reversd in direction. and then being told “Oh by the way, you’ll have
> to instal the
> camshafts yourself”
But what if someone wants different camshafts? 😉
people looking to get rehabilitated from the Windows licensing and upgrade crack addiction and seeking manumission from Microsoft’s abusive EULAs might wait for 8.2 or 8.3, when most of the little irritants mentioned above will have been polished smooth
This is the perpetual story with Linux – always wait for the next release because some rough edge or other isn’t polished, or some minor bug or ‘feature’ hasn’t been fixed. Meanwhile, each successive release introduces more rough edges and minor bugs – it’s the old 80/20 rule.
I wonder if it will ever be possible to get a complete and finished distribution to the quality level of Winblows or OS X? (By which I mean that it can be recommended as being usable by non-technical people).
Over the years I had to install many different Windows versions for friends and family member etc. and my impressions were the worst most of the time. First those installation systems usually don’t ask you everything they need to know during the installation but force you to follow the whole installation and give stupid answers from time to time. Then most of the usually used drivers were hardly beta quality and the used settings like 640×480 + 256 color screens due to missing fitting video drivers kept forcing you to go online to get the drivers yourself. Getting a network connection then is a pain since not few times the drivers for the respective devices also weren’t working or the hardware not detected at all. So what you need to do is using resources like your good ol’ hopefully still working floppy disks and stuff. This all made installing Windows and making it actually working without any problem a pure chore for me. For Linux distros’ fame network connections were usually working right away (except were winmodems were used) so the worst of all my nightmares were usually restricted to what everyone still call the “easiest to install system”. Funny.
Now I’m not doing that all anymore and instead burning Knoppix for anyone who wants a new system, letting them see how it usually boot up more quickly from a CD than their current system from the harddrive is enough convincting them.
“What is worse, is various areas, such as the file systems.
On windows it makes some sense. You have your documents and settings folder, you have programs. You have your windows installation. To the novice user, this is logical. It may not be perfect. But it is basic and easy to follow.”
On Linux for all your documents, settings preferences you have /home/username. As for programs, you have /usr/bin.
You may say that /usr/bin does not contain the entire program, but similary on windows they do not install just in the the programs directory.
Have you ever tried to remove a windows program by deleting it’s folder in program files? Doing so normally just leaves a mess. Registry entries, menu entries, libraries, dlls, drivers are still scattered around the computer. That is why there are uninstallers on both Linux (rpm) and Windows.
In Linux, ALL your data and user preferences are in /home, not just some of it, with some in the program folder, some in the registry, some god knows where. You can do a clean install or upgrade, keep your /home and log in and have all your settings and preferences intact. In Windows this is impossible.
While windows file management may appear superficially easier, once you have do anything more than the most basic tasks with it, it becomes nightmarishly complex.
“I also noticed someone made comments regarding device drivers. I do not know what planet you live on, but today nominally windows drivers are double click setup, and follow requests..
The same cannot be said for Linux drivers. You either get preloaded drivers or headaches.”
Double click+setup etc can not be said to be easier than not having to do anything at all. Most modern distros have automatic hardware detection on install and boot, and support a large amount of hardware.
If the manufacturer offers limited binary only hardware support on Linux, or does not release documentation on their hardware, the task is more difficult, but getting better.
“Linux was designed to be a version of Unix.”
So, in many ways was NT. Where do you think file permissions, user accounts, protected memory, Posix compliance etc come from? Not Win95.
All major operating systems are becoming more unix like by the day.
“Linux was designed to be a version of Unix. You cannot just eliminate that baggage and try and claim it is all things to all men.
Apple have taken a version of Unix, and done a far better job at creating a desktop system than Linux has achieved even with its huge following and massive developer footprint.”
These two sentences appear to contradict eachother.
Growth in Linux has to come from novice users switching from Windows.
That’s why we Linux fans are tearing their hair out at the unfriendliness of the instals.
It doesn’t matter what Windows used to be like. Now it is very easy to instal. Linux has to match it or stay as a bit player.
Have you ever tried explaining to someone non linux literate what /usr/bin actually stands for ?
Normal people think of user like this: USER. Simple ? Apparently… not.. its USR in the unix world.
Normal people commonly believe BIN would have relations with rubbish. Recycle bin.
YES, its a very stupid way of looking at one tiny aspect of Unix or Linux. BUT this is how a non technical person looks at a computer. If you are going to pitch at people who are NON technical, you either have to help them do their work, ie make things easy – like Programs/documents and settings/ etc etc.. and not expect people to understand the file system structure and its history.
onto another point. The add remove program icon in windows assists the user to add or remove a program.
Linux does have RPM or APT installers. APT is at least something I can say fits acceptable use. Only when tools like APT are the norm will it be acceptable.
As for device drivers. YES, enourmous coverage at Kernal level. Great work by many people. But outside of that, adding or fixing a Linux driver is often at least for someone new a complete nightmare. Sorry, but thats the reality.
The bottom line is I fire up linux as often as the next geek. But I am willing to be more critical about its flaws and failings. All the technical Linux users and sysops in the world can turn round and say ‘works for me’, but that just is not going to wash with a new user, or a non computer literate person.
A computer is simply a tool. I don’t care what it is, but its gotta work from the getgo. That would be my overriding basic premise with anything people put in front of me. Thats why companies chose Windows, and will continue to choose it for the desktop, and that is what Linux has to be better at if its going to make it.
I do not believe in its current form, and in its file structures, its usability, and its development, that it is going to be the ‘game changer’ on the desktop.
AdmV
I agree totally that in order to be more successful on the desktop, there needs to be changes made to the underlying directory structure. This should be a main focus of Linux desktop developers. I won’t even mention the cryptic program names.
-G
I’ve been a Linux user for about 2 years. I’ve often gone back to windows on occasion, but lately things are getting better, new software bridges the gap.
I must say that I’m getting tired of reviews based upon ‘Installation’. Yes, this article does a better job of talking about enhancements such as Yast to aide in software installation, hardware detection, and so forth. What about usability of the OS? That’s truely what people need to see.
Is it just because there are two solutions? KDE / Gnome and every distribution under the sun uses them? There’s simply nothing new? If we want better usability it isn’t coming from a new distro… it’s coming from new software makers, or the folks at KDE/Gnome.
At least Redhat seems to be making a distro that is ‘different’ in regards to usability.. Nice improvements to theming, artwork, working with Gnome / KDE folks (against?).
I’d rather see things like reviews of new features that companies are adding to distros instead of better installs.
‘Microsoft’s worst fears come true… a better Linux install.’
Yeah right.
What happens AFTER you’ve installed the OS?………..
> A computer is simply a tool. I
> don’t care what it is, but its
> gotta work from the getgo
Strange, that one. A TV box shows TV, a fax machine sends and receives faxes, and a CD player plays music. All of these tools perform just ONE function. Even then, you often have to look at the manuals after you bring them home.
A computer is surely a tool, but it does all of the above and much more. I would say it is a complex kind of tool really. If you can’t make good use of a new cell phone without looking at the manual, it is absurd to expect less when it comes to computers.
Remember when Caldera did the first graphical install in 2000? It was big, CNN-type news then!! I think Linux has come really far in a short while, and things are going to get much better shortly.
You know, its funny, you don’t hear much of those “Is linux ready for the enterprise” arguments anymore!
I have to say I agree with most of your comments.
It’s an easy thing to forget how much of Linux appears transparent to an experienced user, but opaque and confusing to a newcomer.
However…
Modern distros such as Mandrake should not require the user to have even heard of /usr or /usr/bin to install, connect to the internet and to add the many extra applications that come with the distro.
Applications in KDE and Gnome default to the users ‘home’ directory or desktop for all file operations.
There is not even the complication of a ‘C:’ drive.
(Whatever that is
The non technical user does not have to delve into the root filesystem because it has already been set up for them. They need not even be aware of it’s existance.
This is one of the advantages of Linux that is also a disadvantage. I could set up a user account with a number of applications and be confident that it would all still be working when I came back. However, I would not be confident of a new user also being the sysadmin.
In a corporate desktop environment this is not a disadvantage, in fact the ability to wall off the majority of the computer from the user is a real benefit for security and stability reasons.
For the home user, confronted with installing binary kernel modules for an nvidia video card, it’s an instant turn off. As hardware support improves, this should not be such a common occurrence.
This is the approach taken by OSX, where the filesystem is effectively hidden from the user until they need to see it. The complex filesystem is still there, but just hidden. This is the way Linux is evolving, rather than any attempt to change the underlying filesystem.
If you *need* to delve into /usr/bin or /usr/lib then the technical knowledge required should at least include knowing what they stand for.
Computers are complex, and while I agree that the user should not be confronted with this directly, the complexity is still there, no matter what the OS.
As you say, it’s the simple things that cause the most problems for new Linux users, but the tighter integration of the available drivers with the OS and open nature of the standards is leading towards ease of use.
A one click package manager would be a great benefit to many distros, but remember this is only really possible with GPL software. On a Windows system you have to track down the app on the internet, or buy it from a shop, install it, go through the copy protection rigmarole etc.
If it’s not what you want, you start from scratch, pay again….
On my gentoo system I open a gui installer and just click on it. All dependencies are resolved. A little wait and the app is installed, set up and optimised for my system. Uninstall is just as easy. Mandrake and other distros have similar, though not quite as advanced, equivalents.
That is how adding programs should work, though while the install of Gentoo is not easy, it shows the potential for Linux and GPL software to produce an easier to use system than is possible any other way. For the newbie it’s not there yet, but it’s changing fast.
When I first started using a computer, I was about 10 years old. We had DOS 5.0. At 10 I was able to do
C:cd wolfenstein
c:wolfensteinwolf.exe
I could use DOS very well. We got Win 3.1 and things were a little easier.. but not much.
So how come back then people could learn DOS and Win 3.1 but now days even the best linux distros are said to be “too hard to use”. I don’t get it. the linux distros are FAR easier to use than DOS was. People back then actually tried I guess… I dunno.
hmm since XP is so damn easy to install , why do we have helpdesk personnel?
It was the most annoying part of KDE for me as well; “actions enabled” doesn’t really seem like a good description of making it pop up.
You advocate hiding the system from the user, to save the user.
This is similar to Windows XP and future versions of windows.
Lets get back to giving the user a usable computer, not a nanny system.
How long does a poor old dumb user last with a linux box, no rights to Root, and no knowledge of what to do if they had it ?
Are you all going to persist with ‘ it works for me ‘, ‘ RTFM’, ‘Well you hide everything and tell them to use /home for everything’ (and hope everything is alright)..
Say how do you tell these people they have a security issue and need to update.
Oh .. they need root…
I see..
So they can’t really just hide out in /home then really can they..
Some of this is just plain stupid.
The system needs to be simple, effective, easy to use and to learn. Its got to work right from the get go. Its got to make sense. You can’t persuade me someone should run a linux box, but not have access to Root control. You say Linux is easy, but much of what else you say is based on ideas that simply don’t wash. I can’t ever advocate persuading someone to have a linux box and they own the PC but don’t have root, and can’t handle whats required if they did.
Maybe, just maybe, people should stick to Linux being a server or a workstation system.
AdmV
Hmmm.. actually, that would have been:
c: > cd wolfenstein
c:wolfen~1 > wolf.exe
😉
It’s interesting how sometimes reviews of the various Linux distros disagree with one another. Perhaps this is caused by hardware differences on the machines used for reviews? I think finding out what is compatible isn’t always easy. Some of the distro company websites do not have complete listings. The improved accuracy and completeness of this kind of information would help consumers with their choices of both distros and hardware.
AdmV, there is no way anyone can prevent someone who installs Linux at home having root access.
The advantage of user accounts is that root access is only there when required. Even then, for example installing security updates or new applications from the CDs in Mandrake, it only involves typing a password. Not too tricky really.
I may not have made myself clear, while the home user can access root when they need to, the concept of root is that it’s only used when required, not as the default way of using the computer.
There are good reasons why Windows, Linux, OSX, indeed any modern OS, all now use this system, and if you are unable to see them, which OS will you use?
I’m afraid I may have confused you by talking about corporate desktops, but imagine you are administering a few hundred computers, which would you rather administer…
Working computers where the user has “no rights to Root, and no knowledge of what to do if they had it”
Or computers where the user has rights to Root, and no knowledge of what to do now they have it?
I use my linux set up in my notebook as a toy system from time to time (mandrake 8.2), and here are my complains.
I have to plug my notebook to two different networks on a given day. I needed to print a document. I decided to add two of the network printers in my linux set up. ok,, where do i add it?? the mandrake configuration tool ? or the kde configuration tool? ok, i guess, just like in windows, I have to browse the network, find the shared printer, and add it…. no it doesnt work. konkeror doesn’t browse my local network, even though i can access the internet. after hours I find a confusing printer menu with “cups” somewhere lost in there, i was able to BROWSE the local network, (something konkeror doesnt want to do in my system) see the printer, and then, what drivers? one was a laser printer,, fine, but the other was an canon inkjet printer….. drivers? I had to find some generic half working driver in some linux printers website, and even that was confusing, all the myriad systems, lpd?, etc. oh, and now, the printers are available to some applications, but not all of them , why?? I also have similar problems wiht my usb zip unit.. it sometimes automounts it, sometimes i have to issue some comand to do it, but why do i have to go in /mnt to find it???
where powerusers see “power” all i see is excesive number of steps and inconsistency
to say that setting up and adding devices to linux is easier than xp is definitely not right.
DOS does not support long file names. So… If my memory serves me well… It would be something like:
c:
cdwolf
wolf
Of course, if you’re entering these commands from Windows 95 (or up) then what you entered would work. Anyway…
Torrey: So how come back then people could learn DOS and Win 3.1 but now days even the best linux distros are said to be “too hard to use”.
Alot of people didn’t learn DOS actually. Or only learned what they absolutely had to know. Also, everyone I knew who actually knew how to use DOS, didn’t like Windows 3, because it was a waste of resources. 🙂
linux_baby: Strange, that one. A TV box shows TV, a fax machine sends and receives faxes, and a CD player plays music. All of these tools perform just ONE function. Even then, you often have to look at the manuals after you bring them home.[i]
I [i]usually don’t have to. Like 9 out of 10 times.
linux_baby: A computer is surely a tool, but it does all of the above and much more. I would say it is a complex kind of tool really.
I agree that it is a more complex tool. However, I still think they can be made easier to use. It’s just harder to make them easier to use. But then… Isn’t that part of the job of programmers, computer scientists, etc?
Just because computers are kind of complicated now doesn’t mean that they can’t be made easier. Or that they’d have to be totally crippled to make them easier. It just means we haven’t succeeded yet, in making them easier and in not crippling them. To say it can’t be done or shouldn’t be done, would be like people saying we shouldn’t or can’t fly because the first attempts didn’t work. Obviously… We can fly now. Likewise I believe computers can be made easier and will be in the future.
I bought a ATI TV card yesterday, shutdown my box, installed card. Booted up, logged in and a box pop’d up “ATI TV card installed, do you want us to configure it” (Something like that) “YES”.
Installed the correct card, loaded it to use my SoundBlaster card for audio, started up KwinTV and found my 75 channels from my cable that I wired to it. Now I have Cable T.V. & Internet at the same time, do I need to leave my computer room???
Check it out here:
http://www.linuxfreak.org/ximg.php?id=146&offset=0
SuSE 8.1 also did this with my Umax 1200 scanner and Lexmark Z53 Printer after SuSE was loaded.
I’ve been using SuSE sine 7.0, I try all the other distro’s on a test box when the come out, but I don’t believe I’ll ever switch.
Xine, that’s my only complaint I can think about from SuSE not including a package for.
Have a lot of Fun!
I run systems and networks. Thats my job. Thats why I have a critical overview of giving a product to users who will tear it apart.
That is my rep, not linux’s that gets damaged. Hence I’ll remain a critic.
Linux is great, but only in some roles.
AdmV
I’m so sick of people pointing out that windows (98 and older) didn’t support as much hardware on boot as linux, when its not true. Even windows 98 supported more hardware, from its time, then linux does at all. Add to that the fact that xp supports even more drivers out of the box then any linux distro. Yet linux advocates point to 98 and say “see it didn’t support my video card that came out in 2000, but linux does. So Linux has better hardware support.” It annoys the hell out of me that anything even remotely pro-ms is fud but blatant falshoods in linux’s favor are ok. Compare a new distro’s hardware support to XP or don’t compare them at all.
Its not that people aren’t trying its that they don’t have to. When you used dos there were no other options to do what you wanted. Now you have options, and most people will go with whats easier.
Hi,
I’m responsible for klipper. Three things I’d like to mention:
– klipper in KDE 3.0x had a bug that caused those popups to sometimes appear when no URL was actually highlighted.
– klipper in KDE 3.1 has an entry in the popup to disable this very popup.
– those popups are disabled by default in KDE 3.1
And for those that do like the popups, but didn’t dig any further yet: have a look at the configuration dialog. You can configure your own actions to be popped up when a certain string is copied to the clipboard. The string can be expressed in a regular expression.
Oh and another thing:
klipper in KDE 3.1 finally allows to synchronize clipboard and selection, emulating KDE2’s behavior.
Cheers
Carsten
Hi,
I’m wondering if anyone can reproduce this. I can’t at least. This must be in either the netscape or mozilla actions, but both work fine for me.
Maybe newer versions of those changed, but sorry, this is not klipper’s fault.
Thanks for any input,
Carsten
A lot of people say that the diversity of linux is its greatest strongpoint. I personally think that this is a sharp double edged sword. Yes you have choices. But you dont have consistency. everything is different between programs/distros. I run gentoo, and by far I would say that it is my best linux experience yet. I dont have much more/less trouble installing software than windows, but my biggest gripe is that very few(maybe none) of the programs I install put icons in my kde menu. Therefore most of the time I use the command line. On windows or mac the programmer would know to put the shortcut in the start menu and whatever method is used on the mac. On linux he doesnt know whether to use kde or gnome. If he even cares about an icon.
I am a power user so that is why I run linux. I get bored w/ Windows. I want more people on linux because it benifits me by bring more software. (“I” dont mind buying software if it does what I want). I look at windows and see the crap they are doing now. They are dumbing it down and I hate it. Luna looks like crap. Cartoonish, childish, and lets not start on Clippy. Maybe I’m biased(probably) but I hated every encounter w/ XP. If I see another wizard I will scream! Windows evolution backpedaled after Win2k(my favorite MS).
To the guy that was talking about people being able to use dos: The people using dos then were more like us. Computers were more fringe and high tech then. Now everyone and their grandmother are on computers now and they cant/wont take the time to get the most out of it. Heck these people cant use a vcr!
I hope I have not rambled too much and my thoughts are at least partially understandable.
Hmmm.. actually, that would have been:
c: > cd wolfenstein
c:wolfen~1 > wolf.exe
Actually, it was this:
c:> cd wolf3d
c:wolf3d> wolf3d.exe
As someone else already mentioned, there was no support for long filenames. Many of the people I knew had their systems setup with batch menus so they didn’t have to bother with the commands. That being said, I grew up using AppleII clones (which were command line driven) and then switched over to DOS, and didn’t really touch Windows much until Win95 came along (because really all games worth playing were in DOS until almost a year or more after Win95 was released). Command lines are really easy to use if you don’t have to do much with the computer and don’t have a complex directory structure to deal with. You just have to learn a few simple commands (list directories, change directories, and how to execute a program) and how to identify executables vs. directories. Overall, this makes GUIs no easier or harder to use, as the same rules apply, though it’s more of a visual thing (where are my programs? do I single-click or double-click?). However, with those AppleII clones most people never installed an application, you simply inserted the disk (when floppies were really floppy) and ran the executable. It took me a while to get to the issues with installing programs on the 4×86 we had, or the truly intimidating approach of optimizing the system to play Doom with only 4MB of RAM (with 8MB you didn’t need a boot disk). Over time it’s gotten easier for me, but that doesn’t make it much easier for new users. Even the current Windows games still could require a great deal of system optimization to run well, and a lot of people don’t understand that programs running in their system tray can (and often do) interfere with other programs (especially games) that they are trying to run.
The real problem a lot of users have with learning to use Linux is more about the Windows->Linux transition than about learning Linux. There’re also a lot of issues involved with getting people to learn Linux when they’re not really interested in computers for the sake of computers. The fact that they can’t go down to Best Buy and see a shelf or two full of Linux applications (even those things that take up a small section of Wal-Mart’s applications like gardening, cooking, and so on) and games doesn’t help. Most people need help figuring out if the latest game will work on their system when they own a Windows system (I’ve seen people that won’t buy 3d games because they went through the hell that was 3d PC gaming in the mid-90’s when every card maker had their own API), never mind any other OS.
Many of us that learned how to use a computer before we were in our teens did it because there were things on the computer we liked to do, or because we were interested in the computer itself. Try teaching DOS to someone that just wants to get their work done, or just wants to check email and visit the website advertised on that cooking show they were watching last nite to get the complete recipe. For us, when we have the time, learning a new operating system can be a fun experience, and we usually break the OS within a week or two and spend the time fixing it just to learn more about it. The best thing that ever happened to me in terms of learning about computers was when my dad started taking 2 or 3 days to get around to fixing the computer when something I installed on it caused it to stop working. By the 2nd or 3rd time I simply fixed it myself, and learned a lot more about how the computer worked because of it. Now I get at least as many questions from him about how to do something as he gets from me, and most of it’s not because he doesn’t know how to use a computer, but simply because he doesn’t keep up with the changes in hardware and software that are going on every day/week/month.