The order to carry Java with Windows will remain in force pending the final outcome of Sun Microsystem’s antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft. According to Sun, Microsoft tried to marginalise Java by unfair usage of its software monopoly position, making Windows incompatible with its platform independent programming language. More info at CBSNews.com and CNET News.com.
I love you ! ๐
I’ve noticed this as well as many others that MS’s JVM is significantly faster(up to 2x faster) than Sun’s JVM on the only major application of java that I use on a daily basis(it’s a java based webmail account.)
So far people have only named 3 applications that use Java(limeware,I’ve used Jedit and I did not see anything unique that it could do that other programming text editors could do, but spend more time loading. Besides there are versions of emacs and vi for almost every platform you could imagine(win32, unix, macOS, BeOS, *BSD…) that one could move from platform to platform and just download a different binary copy of emacs. As some have pointed correctly out, Java is NOT GPL or even BSD. In order to write a Java VM you need to sign an NDA with SUN.(one person who was trying to write a JVM for BeOS had to sign a NDA with SUN before he could start!) Java is not a W3C standard(contrary to some myths), nor is it controlled by any noncommercial entity. Java is not Open! Sun defines the standard of java and if your VM deviates from Sun’s standards it can not claim to be a officially sanctioned Java VM. Sun will sue you out of existence, or just force you to use their VM instead like MS. My question is what will the standard be for microsoft to have to include a competing product. How many positive reviews before Microsoft has to include something? What will the standard be?
> It is planned, not disappointing. They already have it,
> perfecting it. It will be included in Java 1.5 Tiger,
> which will be released in couple of months.
I really, really hope shared memory will make it into 1.5.
It was a release driver for 1.4. This means it was planned
to include it, even if it would have delayed 1.4 for quite
a while.
> “You do know what happens when you start several Swing apps?”
>Nothing.
Exactly. Not for several seconds. Swing is translated anew
every time you start another app. And for every app, a
seperate instance resides in RAM.
I have told you I am starting 5-6 java quite complex swing applications every day. Startup time is of course a problem, since every program requires a different JVM to start. 1-2 seconds. Then I use those programs for 8-10 hours without a problem.
This will be fixed in Java 1.5 Tiger with the inclusion of programs sharing the same JVM. There is already a product enabling it, and it is free. Sorry, cannot remember its name, but if you want, I can look for you.
The same problem with many Windows programs, so what? Opening of Outlook on my computer is taking more time than lets say Smart CVS, the java based CVS client.
Aitvo:
“My experience with windows started with win3.0 on a 286 with 1 MB” *COUGH BULLSHIT*
Windows 3.0 required 2 of ram. ๐ HAHA! (I remember having to buy an Intel Aboveboard in order to use it.)
<cough> Like tty said, Windows 3.0 had three different modes: Real mode, standard mode, and enhanced mode. Real mode required about 640k of RAM (640k < 1 MB) and a 8086 or 8088 processor. Standard mode required about 1 MB of RAM (In case you didn’t notice 1 MB = 1 MB) and a 80286 processor. Enhanced mode required about 2 MB of RAM (2 MB > 1MB) and a 80386 processor.
So… My guess would be that tty ran Windows 3.0 in standard mode. And I would also guess that that you, Aitvo, were running it in enhanced mode or that you had a ton of stuff loaded into memory and so Windows 3.0 didn’t have enough. Either way works.
No, JVM sharing was not a release for 1.4. Sun never announced such a thing. Generics happened to not finish for 1.4, so delayed to 1.5.
Both generics and JVM sharing are in the planned list of Java 1.5.
Uhh yeah unless you had 2MB of Ram, Windows would not run. I’m familiar with the modes Windows used, yes I ran “win /3” but uhh starting with 3.0 you couldn’t run it on an 8088 CPU either, starting with 3.1 it wouldn’t run on a 286 either. Sure, he probably did run in STD mode, but unless he had 2MB ((1024+1024)*1024 bytes) he wasn’t running anything but dos shell. Note, you have to have 1MB of *EXTENDED MEMORY* to start Windows 3.0. Do your homework next time. I’m not just some dumb linux user.
“To ensure the Microsoft Windows version 3.0 can run on your system, make sure your system meets all the requirements discussed in the following subsections.
Extended Memory Requirements
Your system must have at least 1 megabyte (MB) (1,048,576 bytes) of extended memory. To determine the amount of available extended memory, type the following at the MS-DOS command prompt, and press ENTER:
mem
If you do not have 1 MB of available extended memory, reduce your system’s extended memory usage by removing the DOS=HIGH command from your CONFIG.SYS file. If you are using the version of SMARTDrive that is provided with MS-DOS 5.0 (SMARTDRV.SYS), reduce the value of the MinCacheSize parameter. If you are using the version of SMARTDrive that is provided with MS-DOS version 6.0 or later (SMARTDRV.EXE), reduce the value of the WinCacheSize parameter.” – http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;96830
Oh, and before you open your mouth again extended memory is the memory addressed above 1024KB, where as EMS is memory that is located above 1024KB, but paged in and out via 64k pages to an area in the 384KB of reserved memory above 640KB. (Ahh yes, that wonderful 640K barrier that Bill is famous for creating.)
Don’t write checks your ass can’t cash, I know more about PC’s than you, your mom, your dad, your teachers, and their teachers. ๐
Who cares about MSDOS or Win3.x? Both sucked big time compared to AmigaOS at the time.
(Feature-wise WinXP and MacOS X are currently alot more Amiga-like than comparable to their own predecessors!)
IMO there isn’t much to know about MSDOS or Windows 3.x from a user perspective, as both were just too incredible limited and so it’s nothing worth bragging about!
The end does not justify the means. This just reinforces the terrible precedent that if you can’t win in the market place, you can use the government as your bully. It also takes yet another bite out of the idea of intellectual property. Microsoft owns Windows. It is their property — not yours or mine, and especially not Sun’s.
The mistake people make is that they look at such rulings in isolation, as if all that matters is Sun, Java, Microsoft, and Windows. But rulings like this ultimately have nothing to do with the specific matter at hand. They are, instead, a slap in the face to individual rights, everyone’s individual rights.
It’s a shame.
True that heh, I still have a copy of Workbench, and some games around here somewhere. Anyone remember Elite?
> This just reinforces the terrible precedent that if you
> can’t win in the market place, you can use the
> government as your bully.
I see it differently, this shows that companies cannot just bully smaller competitors by abusing their established monopolies.
Sadly in the past, the company with the wealthiest bank account almost always wins by default, as they appeal and outsue just about anyone else. (In the US the same goes for ordinary people, wealthy murderers/criminals walk around freely while often innocent people, unable to afford a good attorney, end up in prison.)
Microsoft can afford to lose a couple of billions and therefor almost acts as a self-proclaimed computer king. The company has done so many endless acts to stifle the competition, yet they almost always seem to get away with it. Of course there have been settlements, but for Microsoft’s standards the involved cash they had to pay is laughable IMO.
From http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;96830 as pointed out by Aitvo.
Title of Article
Windows 3.0 Doesn’t Run in 386 Enhanced Mode
Summary of Article
This article discusses how to correct the problem of Microsoft Windows version 3.0 not running in 386 enhanced mode on a system with Microsoft MS-DOS version 5.0 and later.
Here it is direct from the Windows 3.0 documentation (go grab a manual if you don’t believe me).
For 386 enhanced mode, a personal computer with the Intel 80386 processor (or higher) and 2 megabytes (MB) or more of memory (640K of conventional memory and 1024K of extended memory).
For standard mode, a personal computer with the Intel 80286 processor (or higher) and 1 megabyte or more of memory (640K conventional memory and 256K of extended memory).
For real mode, a personal computer with the Intel 8086 or 8088 processor (or higher) and 640k of conventional memory.
Now… The documentation could be wrong. I don’t have an 8086 or an 8088 here at the moment and my Windows 3.0 is on 5 1/4 disks and I don’t have a 5 1/4 drive right now either. If the documentation is wrong, then I am wrong and I freely admit it.
Aitvo: Do your homework next time.
<clip>
Don’t write checks your ass can’t cash, I know more about PC’s than you, your mom, your dad, your teachers, and their teachers. ๐
And you don’t even know who I am, or who my mom is, or who my dad is, or my teachers, etc… Just like I don’t know who you are, who your mom is, etc…
And whether you know more or not is not important. You are human, as am I, and you can be wrong, as can I.
Look Aitvo, I’m not trying to start a fight with you. You may know 1,000 times what I know for all I know. I was merely quoting the manual and comparing it to what tty said. If the way I stated it was offensive, all you need to do is say so and then I’ll publicly apologize.
So, I did do my homework. I have my source. You have your source.
Mike Bouma: IMO there isn’t much to know about MSDOS or Windows 3.x from a user perspective, as both were just too incredible limited and so it’s nothing worth bragging about!
I know… I’m not bragging. I had the manual for Windows 3.0 sitting on my left in one of my “legacy bookcases”. Since I had the book I figured it was my duty to determine if the tty‘s claim was legimate. So I checked the manual, nothing more, nothing less. If it had said, tty‘s claim was BS, then I would have backed Aitvo up. If it said tty‘s claim is possible (which it did) I would back tty up.
If I had a 5 1/4 disk drive available at the moment, I’d get the disks out and see if they still work and try running it without any extended memory. But I don’t have one right now. I suppose I could dig around in my “computer graveyard”, but it doesn’t seem like it would be worth it.
I like to keep my old books, software, and hardware around in case I need them for some project that involves legacy stuff. So far, for the most part, all it’s been good for is misc trivia.
haaaahaaa!!!! *LOOOOL*
Sorry my dear! This is what happens when a layperson interpretes the output of a os-near system-utility.
Your memory-display says “PF Usage”, which means Page-File usage, which means your System is 138MB in swap already.
This does NOT mean your whole system consumes only 138MB RAM!!!!
Switch to the “Processes”-tab, set the column for paged memory to visible (it is diabled by default) and accumulate the values in the “memory used” and “paged memory” columns. THIS is the real amount of memory your system takes!
This missinformation is typical for many of the posters here – sorry I have to say this, but it’s the truth.
Ralf.
“For 386 enhanced mode, a personal computer with the Intel 80386 processor (or higher) and 2 megabytes (MB) or more of memory (640K of conventional memory and 1024K of extended memory).”
Are you a frigging moron? What’s 640KB + 384KB + 1024KB? I KNOW! It’s 2MB!
“For standard mode, a personal computer with the Intel 80286 processor (or higher) and 1 megabyte or more of memory (640K conventional memory and 256K of extended memory).”
You may be able to start Windows 3.0, but if you dig further into the knowledge base you won’t have enough memory left for a DOS PROMPT! You CAN’T use Windows 3.anything with 1MB of memory, you need at LEAST 2. I know, I used to support it for a living.
“So, I did do my homework. I have my source. You have your source.”
You are just reiterating my numbers there bubba.
“If I had a 5 1/4 disk drive available at the moment”
Wanna borrow mine, if you’d rather I still have a copy on 3.5″ floppies ’round here somewhere. Don’t load any TSR’s before starting Windows though like cdrom.sys and mscdex.exe though or it’s going to give you a nice little out of memory error. ๐
Aitvo: “For 386 enhanced mode, a personal computer with the Intel 80386 processor (or higher) and 2 megabytes (MB) or more of memory (640K of conventional memory and 1024K of extended memory).”
Are you a frigging moron? What’s 640KB + 384KB + 1024KB? I KNOW! It’s 2MB!
I never said it wasn’t. My point was that those numbers are for 386 enhanced mode. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, I made the complete quote of that section, since as far as I know, the manual isn’t available on the internet.
Aitvo: “For standard mode, a personal computer with the Intel 80286 processor (or higher) and 1 megabyte or more of memory (640K conventional memory and 256K of extended memory).”
You may be able to start Windows 3.0, but if you dig further into the knowledge base you won’t have enough memory left for a DOS PROMPT! You CAN’T use Windows 3.anything with 1MB of memory, you need at LEAST 2. I know, I used to support it for a living.
I wouldn’t know. Notice, I never claimed you could actually do squat with that amount of memory. Just that, according to the manual, you could start it up.
Aitvo: “So, I did do my homework. I have my source. You have your source.”
You are just reiterating my numbers there bubba.
Gee… I thought about saying the same thing to you. Your source quoted my original numbers for 386 enhanced mode. But since your source excluded standard mode and real mode, I felt that it should be iterated that those numbers are supposed to be different from the numbers that your source had.
Aitvo: “If I had a 5 1/4 disk drive available at the moment”
Wanna borrow mine, if you’d rather I still have a copy on 3.5″ floppies ’round here somewhere. Don’t load any TSR’s before starting Windows though like cdrom.sys and mscdex.exe though or it’s going to give you a nice little out of memory error. ๐
Nah… Not nessecary. I was merely looking for results which were easily accessible. It’s not my claim to backup, it’s tty‘s claim. If you say you can’t do anything with that amount of memory, I’ll believe you. Simple as that.
And you said “you won’t have enough memory left for a DOS PROMPT“. As such, I think that pretty well settles it. The requirements to start it become meaningless, because you can’t do anything. Ok. No problem. It’s up to tty to defend himself from that, because I’m not going to go through the trouble to find out.
Now, how easy was that? All you had to do was state “you won’t have enough memory left for a DOS PROMPT” and you beat me. Instead. You wasted time calling me names.
That’s Commit Charge 142088K
142088 K / 1024 = 138.76 MB
The Process Tab’s Mem Usage is each process’
Commit Charge and the sum will be the total
Commit Charge shown on the Performance tab’s
lower right corner.
Commit Charge is what’s really in the memory.
Physical Memory usage is probably about
Commit Charge plus in memory cache
Under win2k/Xp, you are not goting to get
PF = 0, like under Linux where you got
swap used = 0
They should aks the jugde to force apple release OS X on Intel
But I really think this is stupid. What next? Microsoft being forced to load Netscape, AIM, AOL, ICQ, RealOne… heck, throw in Knopnix into the bundle. Forcing Microsoft to load Java is a bad thing. Both for Sun and for us. Reason: when Microsoft is forced to do something, they normally do it sloppily. So the Java loaded would be buggy, perhaps have some security problems, most probably slow. But yes, compatible with Sun’s Java.
Mike Bouma, I disagree. Microsoft was once a small company. Heck, IBM was pushing it around. With their business-savviness, they came this far. I can build a competitor to Microsoft now and the least I would worry is Microsoft using all their resources to kill me.
Small companies can survive. But why don’t they? They aren’t vigilant. They have something Microsoft don’t, Microsoft takes a long time to change direction, but small companies it is easier.
Netscape could have survived if it wasn’t so… hrmmm, what’s that term? Yes, if it wasn’t so stupid. Netscape, pre-6.x, wasn’t modular so it wasn’t popular with the third party developers. If bundling a browser into a monopoly OS makes that browser a monopoly itself, I still wonder why Real after close to 3 years still rules their market after Microsoft integrated NetShow into WMP.
As for Sun, which the topic is about, kill Java for the desktop for cutting Microsoft say in it. They only time they listen to opinions and accept contribution in terms of innovation is where they benefit directly from it. Therefore a considerable amount of Java came from IBM. But before .NET, there wasn’t JCP. Microsoft have absolutely no say in Java. You expect them to bow to a company that takes every chance to put you down when they have a lot to risk marketing-wise?
I don’t think so. Cause neither would I. Sure, if I was a *small* company, I couldn’t care less (mainly because I rather push my resources to elsewhere). But as a big company, even a quarter the size of Microsoft, or even small, I wouldn’t even think about it.
Well, anyway, sorry for being late to comment. Christmas preparation.
In response to your question about how is it “fair” to chip away at business MS won in the free market. I believe I have already said this isn’t about being fair. It may not be fair to MS. It is about anti-trust law. I am a republican, but I can still see clearly that anti-trust law is A Good Thing. It is important that MS doesn’t use its control of the OS market to dominate other markets. Maybe it isn’t fair to force them to ship a competitors product, but it isn’t a good idea to let them use their control of Windows to force a monopoly in other markets.
Sergio wrote: “There is absolutely no way this will stand on the appeals court. It is totally ridicoulus, unacceptable. The judge reads the press and that’s why he probably sided with Sun. He can not decide which technology I will use. He can not force me to get java with Windows. He can not tell the consumers that they have to use Java so that Microsoft fails. Sun will bankrupt and the judge will be overruled.”
You are just taking your lack of knowledge and spraying it all over my screen. God, I hope ignorance isn’t contagious. This isn’t a ruling, it is an injunction. That means, stop, until we figure thise out. It is basically saying that MS needs to do this, for now, until the court can actually make a ruling on the case. It can’t be turned over in appeal, because an appeal can’t be made until the case is ruled on. Seriously, I think you should try and understand the legal system before you start crying about it.
dwilson you are the one which fills the screen with false information. What does it mean stop, it doesn’t say stop, it says do it. Do you have an understanding problem of the injuction. MS doesn’t do something that needs to be stopped. MS also doesn’t distribute other software with its os. Does stopping mean for you to start distributing them. Are you one of the trolls?
Here is a web page that shows you how “smart” you are. http://go.cadwire.net/?1225,1,1 It basically talks about how Microsoft win in the appeal and the injuction is overturned on another issue. According to you that can never happen of course. Wow, you really know the legal system!
I think you should stop trolling, lying and confusing people. Try learning, do some research, and take some courses to develop yourself a little, instead of pretending to know something and side with the popular belief to sound right.
Prove it.
The appeal court returned the earlier ruling that Microsoft should be split into two. It is the the same law, but the remedy changed a lot. If you don’t understand the basic facts of the justice system here, I can’t do much about it. It is like 2×2 = 4 and you just don’t get it and you want me to prove it.
MS is doing it, distributing bad version via force. Not the judge
I don’t think you have the slightest idea of what is a bad version of Java is. You have no single idea of what is JVM, what happens in it, why Microsoft JVM is different than others, and why Sun really accuses MS but not other JVM implementations that also extend java in one way or another. You never understand these and you never will. The fact of the matter is that, Microsoft’ bad java has nothing to do with anything here. MS “baadd” java is a java and MS didn’t have to distribute it, it distributed it, it helped the adoption of java, but java on the client side never got popular. It got popular only on the server side. Java is slow, and you can develop the same application on C++ as easy as you can develop it on java. Now accusing the failure of java on the clien side on Microsoft, is not only stupid, but also the most outrageous claim. It is like accusing Microsoft for the failure of your child on school or something.
Another stupid claim is that MS is not distributing bad java by its will. It can choose not to, but then you will say it doesn’t distribute it. When it develops java you say it developes “baaaad” java, when it stops developing you say “oh no it distributes the oldddd baaaad version”. These claims have no meaning and they will never stop. There is nothing meaningful about them. The fact that so many people believe in them is the sad thing. That’s called the mob rule, most people can not comprehend and evaluate the issues clearly. THey will believe in what they are told, and they can never understand what is “baaaaaaad” and what is “good” as I see it from your comments.
He is also not saying customer that they have to use Java. He is saying MS to stop forcefully distributing archaic JVM, and put the proper one. This does not mean that customers MUST use the Java
You have to be really very “smart” to say that. First please tell me what is bad about this JVM. Sun and Microsoft made an agreement, they signed a contract. If you are saying that this contract is violated, we will see whether you are right or wrong. I know you never read the contract, and have no idea what it is. But it is clear to me that the contract gives the power to Microsoft to use Java technology for some time, and it doesn’t say anything that forces MS to include the most recent version of it or something. Judge’s judgement about the injuction is based on his personal view about the competition. He thinks that Microsoft is preventing competition. He obviously doesn’t consider whether Microsoft can legally do that or not. He doesn’t mention about the contract.
Microsoft is stupid only to distribute this thing, they should never support it. They tried to be good, but this is Sun they are dealing with. It is the worst company to cooperate in the history. They never get along with any big names. Sun always had these problems. Now they are using the courts to pocket in from Microsoft’s bad reputation.
This is as simple as that.
@ ranjan r
> But I really think this is stupid. What next? Microsoft
> being forced to load Netscape, AIM, AOL, ICQ, RealOne
I would say, if its in the best interest of general consumers then why not?
Microsoft currently holds a solid monopoly and in my eyes that comes with great responsabilities. Shipping an up-to-date and compatible version of Java with Windows is in the best interest of millions of Java developers and many more consumers.
IMO an individual (non-poweruser) consumer should not have to worry about getting a proper JVM from a website unknown to them. Java is an industry wide adopted and supported standard, it should be there for them when they need it.
Shipping Java with Windows will not hurt any consumer, it will only offer many benefits. I believe sometimes general interest should outweigh the commercial interest of an individual company, especially when dealing with monopolies.
A Merry Christmas everyone. ๐
“Microsoft is stupid only to distribute this thing, they should never support it. They tried to be good, but this is Sun they are dealing with. It is the worst company to cooperate in the history. They never get along with any big names. Sun always had these problems. Now they are using the courts to pocket in from Microsoft’s bad reputation.”
Totally Agree with you, Sergio
Java was invented as an answer for remote controls
where chips from multiple companies make it almost
impossible to design a “fit all” solution – however
nobody would buy it – until Internet came to main
stream ….
M$’ java VM is heads and shoulders above Sun’s
“official” implementation at version 1.18 level
as indicated by many benchmarks still available
on the net.
I think what M$ did to the java are linking java
to features that are already available on the Windows
platform (ActiveX, Win32 wrapper, etc) and added
something like WFC to the plate – it is good for
programmers (things are lot easier than Sun’s
official line, like JNI) as well as consumers
(if you buy a $1000 P4 3G from Dell BUT you are
told you must underclock it to Pentium 100 MHz
level, what will be your response??) – on the
other hand, as a programmer/software company,
you don’t have to use these extra bells and you
are free to choose to distribute Sun’s java VM
(NetZero, Borland all did that)
The simple fact is that Sun can’t loose Windows
as a platform while at the same time they can’t
come up with a solution that’s superior to M$’
java implementation – so when M$ added additional
features, Sun would fight in court to stop them
or Sun would lost the control over java, and when
M$ want to stop supporting Java, Sun again will fight
in court to force M$ includes Sun’s inferior java
implementation – this is as much like somebody told
you that can’t use KDE, so you said “OK, I would not
use a Desktop Environment at all, I would just do TWM”
then you were told again you have to use a DE, and it
has to be Gnome – where is the CHOICE ??????????
I would say, if its in the best interest of general consumers then why not?
But how do we know Java is actually in the best interest of consumers? How many Java desktop apps are there? What about Java applets on web sites? I’m seeing less and less of these. If people could download and install Flash when they encounter a website with it, why not with Java?
Microsoft currently holds a solid monopoly and in my eyes that comes with great responsabilities.
In my opinion, a solid monopoly is a Government-sponsored monopoly. One example of that is Astro (http://www.astro.com.my/) which is given 15 years by the Malaysian government pure monopoly (which caused another existing player, MegaTV, profitable may I add, to close their doors). Those kinds of monopolies I don’t agree at all because it is legally impossible to build a competing company.
On Microsoft case, the lack of any smart competitors are the reason why it got its monopoly and retaining its monopoly. The only thing bring it down is Linux. Thankfully, there is companies like Red Hat and Ximian, while I disagree with them a lot on technical issues and some ethical ones, they are very good marketers.
Besides, why every competitor against Microsoft that fail failed in the first place was that it wanted to get the market share instead on focusing on the bottom line. This also applies on many Linux companies, and of course, Be.
Shipping an up-to-date and compatible version of Java with Windows is in the best interest of millions of Java developers and many more consumers.
I sincerely doubt there is a million Java developers, but I see that’s besides the point. All the Java apps I once used, like LimeWire, gives the Windows download with Java bundled with it (and it is just a megabyte bigger than the Mac version, which doesn’t come with Java, just to show that Windows customers aren’t wasting all that much bandwidth). Sure, LimeWire is tonnes faster with JRE (the last I checked), but I don’t see what’s so inconvient about the whole deal.
And I presume other software developers also take LimeWire’s route, and if they don’t, they should.
As of now, I don’t really see why Java would be beneficial towards consumers. The only thing I can think of is that .NET wouldn’t be all that dominant. Au contraire, most developers do use VS, and would probably use VS .NET in the future for new programs, I really expect .NET to be dominant with or without Java inside Windows.
Plus, as I mention before, speaking from history, when Microsoft is forced to do something that isn’t beneficial towards themselves, they would do it sloppily. And I don’t think that is the best for Java.
IMO an individual (non-poweruser) consumer should not have to worry about getting a proper JVM from a website unknown to them.
True. For a long time (before Sun sued Microsoft for antitrust violations), Windows XP automatically installs Java from Sun’s website. They stopped in retaliation. For software per se, they should come with Java bundle. Like when I install LimeWire or OpenOffice.org (which isn’t Java-based, but have Java components), it would automatically prompt me to install Java if I don’t have it (I don’t now, BTW).
Java is an industry wide adopted and supported standard, it should be there for them when they need it.
Java isn’t even close to a standard. It is a product of a company. And until recently (thanks to Microsoft “anti-competitive” practices), Sun doesn’t give anyone any say in what direction Java should go. If that’s a standard, then Windows is a standard, and Office is a standard, and IE is a standard and AOL is a standard.
My defination of standard is something under a standards body (like ISO, EMCA, ANSI, W3C, IEEE etc). Vendor-neutral places. My defination of standard isn’t where somebody publishes specs of their product (in that case, is Solaris a standard?).
Shipping Java with Windows will not hurt any consumer
Au contraire, again. Like I said earlier, because Microsoft isn’t doing it anymore as a competitive egde, or something they would benefit from, they wouldn’t spend much on it, and I forsee a lot of problems with it.
it will only offer many benefits.
Forcing Windows to bundle a free AmigaOne with OS 4 has many benefits too :-).
I believe sometimes general interest should outweigh the commercial interest of an individual company, especially when dealing with monopolies.
And there’s where our opinions clash. That is a socialist thought. My entire opinion is based on laissez-faire capitalism. My belief that a company should only look out for its back, and not others, cause its position was caused by the hard work by them.
Besides, how do you
Actually, Sergio, Dwilson is right. It is a injunction. That means by the end of the case, whether to put in Java is not known.
My official line is that if Microsoft broke the contract, Sun has every right to sue. Though matter how stupid the decission is. What makes the difference is that Sun’s legal team settle for a settlement that removes Microsoft from their previous contract’s obligation (meaning MS could remove Java). What Sun expected was MS to consider Java a indispensable tool that it would use Sun’s JRE. .NET was a huge shock for them. EMCA was a bigger shock.
Their only hope? A bunch of stupid laws called antitrust. But personally, if I was in Sun’s shoes, I would be more flexible in Java. More pragmatic. Like taking Microsoft’s “enchancements” and replacing JNI with it. The difference in size to me means that I wouldn’t agitate the giant for stupid reasons. If Microsoft ships something 100% not compatible with Java yet claim it is Java, by golly I would sue them. But in this case, I could make a app that is compatible with standard Java and still run on MS JVM, or could use Win32 here and there and limit myself to MS’s JVM.
How many Java desktop apps are there?
A lot!
I’m seeing less and less of these.
Maybe this is because of Microsoft hindering its advancement?
If people could download and install Flash when they encounter a website with it, why not with Java?
Sadly Windows is designed to download Microsoft’s own incompatible and obsolete version by default.
In my opinion, a solid monopoly is a Government-sponsored monopoly.
Microsoft is such a company, they receive very high tax benefits. Sadly Microsoft’s monopoly goes far beyond the boundaries of the United States…
On Microsoft case, the lack of any smart competitors are the reason why it got its monopoly and retaining its monopoly.
There are loads of smart competitors, but sadly they don’t have as deep pockets as Microsoft and often have an extra burden for staying loyal to business ethics.
then Windows is a standard, and Office is a standard, and IE is a standard
They are, developers make sure they stay compatible with these standards. Microsoft can set standards due to its monopoly position regardless if their solution is better or not.
Like I said earlier, because Microsoft isn’t doing it anymore as a competitive egde, or something they would benefit from, they wouldn’t spend much on it, and I forsee a lot of problems with it.
That doesn’t matter, if Sun spends its time on providing a quality solution for usage with Windows and Microsoft is ordered to use it.
My belief that a company should only look out for its back, and not others, cause its position was caused by the hard work by them.
Sadly this isn’t always true, some companies were lucky and abused monopolies to get in the postition they are today. Microsoft is the perfect example, do you want any company to own the air that you breathe or the water that you drink? I do not. Often general interest must go beyond individual interests.
I know it is not the final ruling, and actually couldn’t understand exactly what dwilson is exactly talking about. It is not that I claim it is the final ruling of course, I am very well aware of that, but even it is not the final ruling, it should be overturned and it can be overturned on an appeals court. dwilson says something but not related to what I say. The only credible argument in his post could be whether this injuction can be overturned or not, and the link I posted clearly shows that injuctions can be overturned too. Otherwise this type of injuction means anti-competitive advantage in favor of Sun until the judge figures out what’s the truth about this. Also the argument that judge orders MS to stop is also not true at all. It is not MS is doing something and judge stops it. Judge orders MS to do something, no to stop doing something.
@ ranjan r
> That is a socialist thought. My entire opinion is based
> on laissez-faire capitalism.
I do not consider my thoughts to be 100% socialistic neither 100% capitalistic.
I am 100% for healthy competition, so you may consider that a capitalistic point of view (companies or people are being awarded for special achievements). But that also means I am against anti-competive measurements, unlike what is currently happening in capitalistic markets. For example I think it is very bad that Microsoft pressured Gateway to cancel its Amiga project.
When a company is able to bully around such enormous companies, it is very clear for me that something is seriously wrong and that healthy competition is being stifled.
Of course officially there are laws to prevent abuse, however these are not being enforced enough, due to the might of the involved companies.
And finally with regard to the amount of Java developers, according to various reliable sources there are over 2.5 million Java developers.
A injection, to the best of what I know about American law (which is the law system I know best, after the British), isn’t a final ruling. The appeals courts only come into place when a company appeals after a final ruling.
First time, I thought it was a mistake. Second, the same, I thought it was a honest mistake. But “ranjan” is getting ridiculous don’t you think? “rajan” (my original name) is sanskrit for prince. “ranjan” on the other hand, I have no idea…
I do not consider my thoughts to be 100% socialistic neither 100% capitalistic.
From what I have read from your post, you agree 100% with Robert Owen’s original Socialist philosophy, not the latter ones that become more extreme and less practical.
I am 100% for healthy competition
Same with me, but apparently you and I don’t really agree on what the defination of “healthy competition”. When Ma Bell was splitted up, it spawn little more vicious Little Bells that are far more worse for competition than the original Ma Bell. Plus, such regulation from the anti-trust ruling is currently hurting the telco market very seriously (in fact one theory on the lack of low cost consumer broadband in USA is because of the regulations). Healthy competition?
What about Standard Oil? They made fuel extremely cheap, but their competitors couldn’t. Had not for this stupid laws, their competitors are bound to find a way to undercut Standard Oil’s price. But noooo, prices are no where near the prices of Standard Oil’s hay day.
I could go on and on with your “healthy competition”, but frankly I need to go to bed.
But that also means I am against anti-competive measurements, unlike what is currently happening in capitalistic markets.
I didn’t get this statement. You say that you are against anti-competitive measurements outside capitalistic markets? Heck, China is more capitalist than USA itself ๐ There isn’t a pure-capitalist market, ala Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nation, and Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged.
Ohhhh…. that’s what you mean….
For example I think it is very bad that Microsoft pressured Gateway to cancel its Amiga project.
There isn’t one iota of proof that Microsoft have any direct involvement in the decission. Heck, there is in fact more proof prooving the existance of Atlantic than this. If I was in Gateway shoes at that time, even without Microsoft moving a muscle, I would drop Amiga for business reasons. Like….
1) Amiga tech is old, and require expensive (then) hardware that is obsolete (the reason why it is expensive).
2) There is no proof in any marketing survey that Gateway could make a profit selling Amigas.
3) There would be a direct clash of products and technical ideologies, between Wintel PCs and Amigas.
For all these reasons, I would think the PC market only is a better choice than Amiga-only or Amiga and PC market together. Of course, I would probably stick to Amiga if anyone could have forsee the crash in the PC market (that is pushing Gateway in financial ruins).
When a company is able to bully around such enormous companies
Actually, Gateway was a rather small company, in terms of employees, profit, capital and market size.
it is very clear for me that something is seriously wrong and that healthy competition is being stifled.
I tell you where healthy competition was stiffled. In the courtrooms. Just because there is not one company that actually how Microsoft works and use that to their advantage (okay, there are a few, namely Red Hat, Ximian, etc., but not many), suddenly competition is unhealthy.
Breaking the legs of the forerunner won’t make the other runners run any faster.
Of course officially there are laws to prevent abuse, however these are not being enforced enough, due to the might of the involved companies.
True, I agree. There is a thousand of cases, involving even your sweetheart Commodore, the owner of Amiga back then, where someone could possibly sue them under this stupid laws.
And finally with regard to the amount of Java developers, according to various reliable sources there are over 2.5 million Java developers.
Where did you get the numbers from? Anyway, I would really like to know how many Java developers (including those using MS J++) at its peak for desktop apps. Just curious.
That my previous statement was wrong. I have MS JVM 1.1.something installed on both my WIn2k and WinXP machines. Microsoft bundled it, and there is no way to completely uninstall it fully, so why bother?
“How many Java desktop apps are there?
A lot!”
So far people have only named 3 which are local applications. Who uses Jedit instead of a native binary text editor? Who uses Thinkfree instead of OpenOffice.org or M$Office? Who uses a java based archival program?(the only one I ever saw isn’t developed.) Who uses a java based drawing program? There are many entire categories of programs in which virtually no programs are being written in java. The platform agnostic nature of java makes it slow…. I could load MS Word 2 faster on a 386 than I could load thinkfree on a modern 2Ghz machine. Except for some small dynamic web applications, I don’t see a whole lot of potential for programs written in java until cpu’s get faster.
“I’m seeing less and less of these.
Maybe this is because of Microsoft hindering its advancement?”
No, I am rather skeptical of that. ICQ used to maintain a java version which is no longer developed. ditto with AIM. ditto with Javazip. There is an entire graveyard of small applications that were written in java and most of them drew little interest. native binary versions of icq and aim have appeared for linux and other unices which AOL was too lazy to support. How many *new* desktop programs are getting written in java? Not many. Most firms that exclusively do desktop applications don’t write their applications in java in favor of another language in a native binary format.
@ rajan r
> From what I have read from your post, you agree 100%
> with Robert Owen’s original Socialist philosophy
I think Mr Owen was a great man for his time, but I wouldn’t say I share all of his ideas and opinions (times and thus general perspective have changed significantly).
However his views are closer to my own than many others, for instance I recently followed an interview with an US senator on CNN and this guy talked about how he would like to help the rich people in the USA… That sounds so amazingly weird to me: “Help save the rich people!” (Especially the low-tax paying ones in the US!) Similarly I think giving additional tax cuts to a company like Microsoft is totally out of this earth.
Why should a less wealthy company need to pay a larger percentage of tax than a more wealthier company? This simply does not make any sense for me.
I also find it ridiculous that Microsoft is allowed to make threats, like for instance, if you penalize us we will stop selling and supporting Windows. IMO a goverment body should be able to replace such (mis-)management by force of law.
> Same with me, but apparently you and I don’t really
> agree on what the defination of “healthy competition”.
I see healthy competition as companies having the oppertunity to compete with eachother. Monopolies are able to set or destroy such conditions, ideally I believe it should have to be possible to deal with abusers swiftly. (Endless years of legal delays, appeals and continuing abuse are not at all effective.)
>> But that also means I am against anti-competive
>> measurements, unlike what is currently happening in
>> capitalistic markets.
> I didn’t get this statement.
It means that if I am pro-competition I am also against anti-competitive measurements. Like for example abuse of monopoly positions.
Let’s take Windows as the example. A bare bones version of Windows would offer endless oppertunities for 3rd party developers. Companies like Gateway, Dell, HP and IBM would be able to easily replace IE with a 3rd party Browser solution, Outlook with a 3rd party email client, Media Player with 3rd party players, etc. This is what competition is all about. Currently it is far less lucrative to develop better 3rd party browsers, email clients, players, stacks, utilities, etc as everyone must take Microsoft’s entire package anyway.
> You say that you are against anti-competitive
> measurements outside capitalistic markets? Heck, China
> is more capitalist than USA itself ๐
Officially China still is a communistic country and the US is regarded as being amongst the most capitalistic countries.
> There isn’t one iota of proof that Microsoft have any
> direct involvement in the decission.
Yes there is. There have been public statements from ex-Gateway/Amiga personal and there have been statements made under oath by ex-Gateway executives.
> 1) Amiga tech is old, and require expensive (then)
> hardware that is obsolete (the reason why it is
> expensive).
Amiga hardware was far less expensive than (not even equivalent) IBM or Apple compatible hardware for many years at the time.
Regardless 3rd party developed mainstream hardware can be used with Amigas. There is nothing special about PC hardware components which prevent them to be used with other products than IBM/Apple compatibles.
Currently there aren’t that many Amiga drivers available for mainstream hardware, but physically you can use just about any mainsteam graphics chipset or audio chipset, USB/Parrallel/Serial expansions with classic (and of course future) Amigas as well.
> 2) There is no proof in any marketing survey that
> Gateway could make a profit selling Amigas.
The many thousands of emails Gateway received, made them think otherwise:
http://www.haage-partner.de/amiga/CommodoreBillboard/GatewayPromoti…
> 3) There would be a direct clash of products and
> technical ideologies, between Wintel PCs and Amigas.
The ideologies are actually quite similar. By studying the abilities of orginal Amigas you can easily see many ideas being adopted by WinXP or MacOS X.
A big difference of approach is with regard to efficiency, modularity, flexibility and user customizability.
> Gateway was a rather small company
Gateway is a multi-billion dollar company with over 12,000 employees, it is a very big company in my book.
> True, I agree. There is a thousand of cases, involving
> even your sweetheart Commodore, the owner of Amiga back
> then, where someone could possibly sue them under this
> stupid laws.
My sweetheart Commodore? You must be kidding me! I think the management of Commodore sucked. Yes they bought Amiga Inc and that was a very wise decision at the time, but I wouldn’t become a vivid Microsoft supporter all of the sudden, just if they buy Amiga Inc…
> Where did you get the numbers from?
International Data Corporation (IDC) stated (October 2002) that there are 2.5 million Java developers and expects that this number will grow to 4 million by 2003.
“IDC is the world’s leading provider of information technology data, industry analysis and strategic and tactical guidance to builders, providers and users of information technology.”
Further references:
Middleware Company http://www.middleware-company.com/
Sun Microsystems (3 million developers) http://www.sun.com
SavaJe Technologies http://www.savaje.com/company
http://www.ziggr.com/javaone2002/
M$’ java VM is heads and shoulders above Sun’s
“official” implementation at version 1.18 level
as indicated by many benchmarks still available
on the net.
Yes, and DOS runs a lot better on a 386 than Windows XP does.
…Like when I install LimeWire or OpenOffice.org (which isn’t Java-based, but have Java components), it would automatically prompt me to install Java if I don’t have it (I don’t now, BTW).
I don’t use LimeWire, but StarOffice does this, and I believe OpenOffice does as well. So does ThinkFree Office (assuming it is still around).
…if I was in Sun’s shoes, I would be more flexible in Java. More pragmatic. Like taking Microsoft’s “enchancements” and replacing JNI with it.
This would go against Java’s core architecture; to be completely cross platform. Microsoft’s enhancements are Microsoft centric, and do not benefit Java in any way.
By the way, as a Java programmer amongst other things, I thought Microsoft’s “enhancements” to Java were utter crap.
“By the way, as a Java programmer amongst other things, I thought Microsoft’s “enhancements” to Java were utter crap.”
You don’t have to use it if you think it is crap – you
can roll your own JNI stubs, and header files.
Talking about cross platform, Java probably is not even
close to these leaders
1 “Hello Word”
2 Kermit
3 zlib/zip/unzip
and maybe gnuplot, ghostscript.
“Yes, and DOS runs a lot better on a 386 than Windows XP does” – yes, that’s why there is .NET the java killer.
“This would go against Java’s core architecture; to be completely cross platform. Microsoft’s enhancements are Microsoft centric, and do not benefit Java in any way.”
That is a pipe dream for now – Weblogic/WebSphere ???
If I have a late model PC, why whould I in my right mind
want to have it cross platformed with a calulator/remote
control ? Just so that you as a java programmer can have
an easier job because you don’t know how to write
a decent piece of C++ program without memory leaks ?
What’s wrong with benefiting Windows? at least they
have 94% of PC consumers – I don’t see why let
most PC users suffer for the benefit of a few
million java programers is right.
The funny thing is that Sun’s Java VM isn’t cross-platform
between their own different editions – J2 1.3 vs 1.4.
“My sweetheart Commodore? You must be kidding me! I think the management of Commodore sucked. Yes they bought Amiga Inc and that was a very wise decision at the time, but I wouldn’t become a vivid Microsoft supporter all of the sudden, just if they buy Amiga Inc…”
Be grateful that Commodore DID buy it from Atari, imagine what would have happened to it if they tried to market it themselves. I’m thinking it would have gone something like Lynx/Amiga/Jaguar LOL (Note, Atari did not invent the Lynx Epyx did. Epyx in their keen market views didn’t think the handheld market would flourish and sold it to Atari which was purchased by Jack Tremel former head of Commodore (Who left prior to the Amiga’s initial release if memory serves.)) Commodore’s vision unfortunately didn’t make it past the 1980’s causing their bankruptsy in 95. All they had to do was come up with a varient of the A4000 and drop it’s pricepoint just below the common PC. They could have owned the industry past the mid 80’s IMHO. (The C64 is the best selling PC to this day I believe. They had astronomical sales figures in the 10’s of millions of C64 units per year, it was the computer in every home scenario before Bill Gates “vision” of a computer in every home.)
> Be grateful that Commodore DID buy it from Atari,
> imagine what would have happened to it if they tried to
> market it themselves.
Who said I wasn’t?
BTW Amiga was independent, Atari wanted to buy them out as Amiga was in financial trouble. When Commodore stepped in Atari filed a lawsuit, which they lost. (Atari did fund a large part of the initial Amiga development)
Commodore had enough money to make Amiga a success story. Atari was also very big but they lacked the insight to let Amiga continue developing a revolutionary multimedia computer. As the Atari management was mainly interested in Amiga’s revolutionary chipset.
IMO overall both C= and Atari had very bad management teams. But they also hired many great engineers. C= had its focus on inferior PC technologies, where they were just one of so many and eventually bankrupted when their brand wasn’t popular anymore. C= was largely neglecting its revolutionary and unique Amiga subsidiary. Meanwhile Atari offered feature-wise a machine only slightly better than an Apple Macintosh.
> Atari did not invent the Lynx Epyx did.
The Lynx was a great portable gaming device released in 1989 and was developed by some the original Amiga team members.
http://www.atarilynx.com/
> Commodore’s vision unfortunately didn’t make it past the
> 1980’s causing their bankruptsy in 95.
IMO there was an almost complete lack of computing vision within C=’s management team. With their Amiga subsidairy they were nearly a full decade ahead of the competition, yet they managed to go against the will and insight of the Amiga team and eventually drove the whole company into the ground…
“Who said I wasn’t? ”
I was being sarcastic. ๐
“BTW Amiga was independent, Atari wanted to buy the out as they were in financial trouble. ”
You are correct, my mistake. Amiga and Atari worked together to create the Lorraine prototype which became the Amiga personal computer.
“Commodore had the money to make Amiga a success, Atari was also very big but they lacked the insight to let Amiga continue developing a revolutionary multimedia computer. As the Atari management was mainly interested in Amiga’s revolutionary chipset. ”
Agreed, Atari’s focus IMHO was ONLY on gaming.
“The Lynx was a great portable gaming device in 1989 and was developed by some the original Amiga team members. ”
Agreed, and it’s to this day the only overclockable handheld. (I had one.) ๐
“IMO the management had a complete lack of computing vision.”
I disagree, they were the most innovative personal computer company on the planet until th emid 80’s when they lost their focus and stopped innovating. Had they built the C128 as a modular upgradable system it would have fared far better in the market. The Amiga, all it needed was a better pricepoint and a better marketing team. IMHO of course. ๐
>> IMO there was an almost complete lack of computing
>> vision within C=’s management team.
> I disagree, they were the most innovative personal
> computer company on the planet until th emid 80’s when
> they lost their focus and stopped innovating.
Yes you are right, the c64, c16/4+, PET, etc were all excellent and well funded/marketed products for their time. I meant to say, at the time when Commodore owned Amiga, they lacked to see the potential of multimedia computing.
> The Amiga, all it needed was a better pricepoint and a
> better marketing team.
The C= management team sadly also made design, focus and financing mistakes. That’s why the Amiga engineers already included easter eggs within AmigaOS stating that they built the Amiga and Commodore steared the machine into the ground, long before it actually happened.
Unfortunately, even if the judge in the end gets his way I don’t think it’s going to help SUN’s case much. If someone wants to run Java then it is only a click away from Sun’s website. I can’t see that forcing MS to bundle it will help. It is not like the Web is flooded with applets. That role has been picked up by Macromedia’s Flash plugin.
“I can’t see that forcing MS to bundle it will help. It is not like the Web is flooded with applets. That role has been picked up by Macromedia’s Flash plugin.”
Flash is almost every where, almost
like a really bad virus ๐
On the otherhand, I peronally only use java applet
on visualroute.visualware.com, http://www.dslreports.com
http://www.time.gov and go.icq.com – counted by one hand.
If I have a late model PC, why whould I in my right mind
want to have it cross platformed with a calulator/remote
control ?
I’m not you, so I couldn’t say. However, if you did want to, isn’t it nice that you can?
Just so that you as a java programmer can have
an easier job because you don’t know how to write
a decent piece of C++ program without memory leaks ?
Um, delete() isn’t it?
What relevance Java programmer’s C++ skills have to this discussion entirely escapes me, but if you are going to make such comments, please learn to read first. I said I write Java programs amongst other things, inferring that I know other programming languages. I am also very capable of writing programs in C, C++, C#, Python, Pascal, and Perl (when I’m in the mood).
I think a lot of people are too narrow and self-limiting. I grew up working for my family’s construction company. There I used myriad tools. I wouldn’t have amounted to much at work if I would have said, “This Craftsman hammer is really the Stanley screwdriver killer!”
Due to my background, I view programming languages as tools, not a favorite sports team for which I must inexplicably proffer defence and plaudits. I am happy to have a wide variety of tools to get my work done. I find it very defeating to grant ovations for only one team while berating the rest (or in other words only using one programming technology zealously). All programming technologies have their strengths and weaknesses (with the exception of VB, which doesn’t have any strengths, but is generally mediocre all around), and I feel only a fool limits themselves to one; but that’s my opinion.
What’s wrong with benefiting Windows? at least they
have 94% of PC consumers
Nothing is wrong with benefitting Windows if that is what you are trying to do. Benefitting Windows is NOT Java’s core goal, however, which is why I said it would be dumb to incorporate Microsoft’s technologies into Java; such as WFC. Obviously Sun agrees with me on this.
Java is another tool, which is very useful in a cross-platform environment. If you don’t need that environment, then use something else. However, in regards to the topic at hand, it isn’t about Java and people who program in Java. It’s about contracts and agreements between Microsoft and Sun. If Microsoft isn’t doing anything wrong, it will probably come out in the court proceedings and Microsoft will not have to include Sun’s JVM in their OS. On the other hand, if Sun can prove to the court that Microsoft is trying to use its monopoly to kill Java (which, having worked at Microsoft, I can tell you they are), then Microsoft very well may have to include Sun’s JVM into their OS. Either way, it doesn’t effect you except for the fact that mentally it’s like an opposing team scoring a point against “your team”.
I don’t see why let most PC users suffer for the benefit of a few million java programers is right.
I completely fail to see how having a JVM on your machine causes you to suffer. If you’ve used Windows at all during the last six years you’ve most likely had it on there the whole time and I haven’t heard a world of suffering people crying in complete agony over it.
I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding programmers. It doesn’t benefit programmers at all. If I write a program in Java, I can just package the JRE with my software. If I write an applet, then I’ll provide a link for you to download the JRE yourself. What do I care? (In case the point was missed, I don’t).
It seems to me that there are a lot of people taking sides for their team of choice. Guess what. Your opinion doesn’t matter at all. The courts will decide without consulting you on the matter. Once all the appeals and such are over, a settlement or a judgement will be reached and both companies will act accordingly; or they won’t and it will all begin again. That’s just how it is.
“If I have a late model PC, why whould I in my right mind
want to have it cross platformed with a calulator/remote
control ?
I’m not you, so I couldn’t say. However, if you did want to, isn’t it nice that you can?”
I mean convert my PC to a calculator. It might be
nice in certain context, but you do know you will pay
a price for this cross-platform features and right now
for a PC user, the price is limited feature on a capable
OS and slow performance.
” delete () ”
that doens’t matter, could also be free, HeapFree
GlobalFreePtr or what ever proper function call
on a particular platform. The thing is that right
now much of the java performance hit is in the
area of GC – just run a java application with
verbose:gc flag on and you will see it is not uncommon
that JVM is using 0.7 second to do a global GC
and in J2 V 1.3 this global GC often happens in a row.
The thing is that after paying this performance hit
there are still memory leaks in java apps. and an
Opera on the *nix platform will kill a 100% java
X server instantly (WeiredX) due to java’s poor IO performance capability.
Well, I am not a VB guy, but at leat using ActiveX
is a lot easier in VB than in C/C++ where I have to
do reference counting if I am starting from scratch
and VB doesn’t make it nearly as difficult as in Java
to call say the underlaying Win32 layer.
Java is supposed to make cross-platform and generic
programming easier, right ? You just alloc with new
and forget it, you just throw an exception and
nobody knows if this e will be catch with in an app
and you don’t allow to deal with pointers…. and
PC users got dog slow software that degrade a P3/P4
to a 486 level machine.
The funny thing is that you scratch your hair to do
type convertions – str->GetByte, GetLong, GetShort
then str = null in the hope the VM acutally implemented
GC correctly.
I have M$ VM, Sun’s VM (1.3, 1.4) on my computer, but
I just don’t like java app at its current state, soooo
slow, so bloated that remind me in old days to test
if 4MB with win95 was actually possible. It has 7 years
into the play right ? For that long, M$ already got NT
right from 3.1 to win2k – that just doesn’t sounds Sun
is a company that will bet farms on java.
My 2 cents sure would not change a thing in this case,
but I am free to express how I dislike Sun on this topic.
Guess my next windows isntall will include a step to
separate sun’s jvm from the default configuration.
Sergio there has been no ruling in this case. I don’t care what article you read, it was probably written by someone ignorant. Here is a site giving the legal definition of a preliminary injunction (injunction made before a case is ruled on). http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p115.htm
The short and simple of it is that if a moving party has reasonable chance of winning the case or if they can prove that there will unfair hardships on them if the injunction isn’t granted, then the court can grant one. It only lasts until the case is ruled upon. Now, the ruling can include a similar injunction, which would then be permanent (unless beaten on appeal), but this case has not been ruled upon.
I leave you with a quote about how a prelim-injunction can be overturned: “The grant or denial of a motion for a preliminary injunction lies within the discretion of the district court, and its order will be reversed only if the court relied on an erroneous legal premise or otherwise abused its discretion.”
Thank you, and have a nice day.
==================================
by the way, like CroanoN, i never lie
“A bunch of stupid laws called antitrust.”
I am just curious as to why you find anti-trust laws stupid? There was once a time when I thought this way as well. Then when I actually examined what happens I saw that oftentimes in the U.S. the guy with the most money wins. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer isn’t just a saying, it is true. Monopolies use the power they gain over one market to tear their way into another. Microsoft is king of this tactic. They operate at a loss for all of their products except Windows and Office, the profits of which cover their losses everywhere else and then some… well, and then a lot. Thus OS and Office Suite prices inflate so that they can push competitors out of other markets. It is ridiculous. Of course you are welcome to your own opinions, but I am just curious as to what it is about anti-trust laws that you find to be stupid.
I think Mr Owen was a great man for his time, but I wouldn’t say I share all of his ideas and opinions (times and thus general perspective have changed significantly).
I would say the same for Mr. Owen, because his ideology isn’t one that is forced upon by the government but something companies can take up on their own. And his ideologies proof right. Notice all the companies that followed this ideology, they have a team of employees that have high morale and most of the time the company has profit. When they stop, you see them going down.
I also don’t agree with everything capitalism by Ayn Rand (esp.) and Adam Smith, like abortion rights, drug rights, complete tax haven, etc. (I agree with extremely minimal tax in order for the government to run).
for instance I recently followed an interview with an US senator on CNN and this guy talked about how he would like to help the rich people in the USA…
I would disagree with that Senator for a different reason than you do. I don’t believe preferences in taxes should be given to anyone, Microsoft and other big giants, or small companies. I believe everyone should fall under the same law, which means same taxes.
I also find it ridiculous that Microsoft is allowed to make threats, like for instance, if you penalize us we will stop selling and supporting Windows.
Again, there is no proof behind this claim, but I feel it should be totally legal. Microsoft should have a right to sell their products to whomever they like, and to not sell their products to whomever they like too. But Microsoft only forbids (until recently) that no other OS should be installed with Windows (in fact now, Microsoft says only one version of Windows can be installed).. Their reasoning is pretty legitimate, and they have been using this condition way before Windows was even created.
I see healthy competition as companies having the oppertunity to compete with eachother.
If I cut off the legs of Microsoft, how can they run along with other runners? I don’t see that as healthy competition, I see that as pseudo-competition.
Monopolies are able to set or destroy such conditions, ideally I believe it should have to be possible to deal with abusers swiftly.
Just to note, Netscape was legally a monopoly pre-IE, and harmed Opera’s adoption a lot of anti-competitive practices many accuse Microsoft is doing now with IE.
Anyway, monopolies, those not government-sponsored, can’t really expand their market quickly and gain dominance in another market swiftly as you imagine. Just because they did it with IE doesn’t mean it would happen all the time. I have mentioned this a lot of times, but Real manage to maintain their lead in their market even after 3 years of onslaught similar to that done on Netscape. And Microsoft for the near future will not get that lead, and for the distance future would get that lead but have to co-exist with Real and Apple because it is impossible for them to get a monopoly.
As for dealing with “abusers” swiftly, it would only cause more injustice than justice. By dealing with “abusers” swiftly, things like trials would give the accused less time to defend themselves.
Let’s take Windows as the example. A bare bones version of Windows would offer endless oppertunities for 3rd party developers. Companies like Gateway, Dell, HP and IBM would be able to easily replace IE with a 3rd party Browser solution, Outlook with a 3rd party email client, Media Player with 3rd party players, etc.
But then that would contribute to the collapse of Windows itself. The thing that kept Microsoft monopoly, their ISVs, would slowly dissapear. Writing applications would be much harder for Windows mainly because the API is no longer fixed (applications, for example, can no longer depend on IE, so they would have to write their own DLLs to replace it or write versions for IE, Gecko, Opera, etc.)
Besides, I like to note out that if we actually push to strip out Windows, it would strip it down to the kernel, because the defination of middleware can be applied on many parts on Windows. Like explorer.exe (the shell). Or Windows Explorer. Or their standard printer drivers.
In other words, Windows would slowly be reduced to the complexity of Linux.
I think the quickest way to resolve this monopoly problem once and for all is to actually split Microsoft into two right in the middle (meaning both companies have all the same divisions and products). But I don’t think that is fair for Microsoft (I would say it is fair for government-sponsored monopolies).
Officially China still is a communistic country and the US is regarded as being amongst the most capitalistic countries.
Officially, China follow human rights. (And the most capitalistic country is the Principality of Sealand)
Yes there is. There have been public statements from ex-Gateway/Amiga personal and there have been statements made under oath by ex-Gateway executives.
I do not take these statements as proof. It is a statement, it is very easy to lie. I can say my brother’s company have been bullied by Microsoft, would you believe that? The proof I want is things like actually documents, a statement by Microsoft themselves (if they tell something consistent with your statement, for sure they wouldn’t be lying) and things like that.
Amiga hardware was far less expensive than (not even equivalent) IBM or Apple compatible hardware for many years at the time.
That was during its hayday. Before it went bankrupt. I’m talking in the sense of Gateway having Amiga’s assets. They either have to spend a lot of money porting the software from 68k to either PPC or x86.
The many thousands of emails Gateway received, made them think otherwise:
Having many thousands of emails doesn’t mean that Amiga OS would be profitable. The things that once made Amiga profitable (like film studios) don’t seem interested in Amiga.
The ideologies are actually quite similar. By studying the abilities of orginal Amigas you can easily see many ideas being adopted by WinXP or MacOS X.
Many ideas of capitalism was adopted by communist China, does that make it a capitalist country? Amigas, whether you like it or not is tonnes different than Windows XP and especially Mac OS X.
Gateway is a multi-billion dollar company with over 12,000 employees, it is a very big company in my book.
I was comparing with its competitors. If they were to do something so fundamentally stupid, it is plenty easy for competitors like HP, Compaq and IBM to easily take advantage of.
My sweetheart Commodore? You must be kidding me! I think the management of Commodore sucked.
I agree, but that statement was made sacarsically.
but I wouldn’t become a vivid Microsoft supporter all of the sudden, just if they buy Amiga Inc…
But if Gateway actually did made Amigas, you wouldn’t be having this debate with me even if Gateway die or loose their market power because of it. I’m very sure that your hatred for Microsoft stems out from this.
International Data Corporation (IDC) stated (October 2002) that there are 2.5 million Java developers and expects that this number will grow to 4 million by 2003.
Could you give me the research title, cause I’m having a hard time finding it.
Besides, from that Middlewar Company, it says only 800,000 genuinely know Java. Anyway, I’m quite sure most of the developers are with the server enviroment (J2EE), not the desktop (J2SE).
Dwilson, of course you don’t care about the page, because it clearly shows that it is possible to overrule the injuction. All the other things you mentioned doesn’t have any meaning, cause they don’t conflict with what I say. The only thing is that is it possible to stop this injuction and the answer is yes. Injuctions can be overturned. If you think you are right, then sue appeals court which already did that.
Your post looks to me foolish, cause you write the known facts here, except one and when it is shown that you are wrong, you just don’t care. That’s the typical MS basher.
Ironoclast: This would go against Java’s core architecture; to be completely cross platform. Microsoft’s enhancements are Microsoft centric, and do not benefit Java in any way.
Most of the developers I know that uses Java doesn’t use it because it is cross platform rather it gets the job done the best. But anyway, if I use JNI massively in my Java app, wouldn’t it no longer be cross platform?
Claus: That role has been picked up by Macromedia’s Flash plugin.
Actually, Flash is in its own league. For simple applets like simple games, yeah maybe. But Flash is used very differently from Java.
tty: Flash is almost every where, almost
like a really bad virus ๐
And just to note many of Flash early features were implemented by Microsoft as DHTML.. And Flash became a “virus” because of its own marketing capabilities.
(which, having worked at Microsoft, I can tell you they are)
They try to kill every competitor. That’s why every smart business try to accomplish. Either that or maintain their lead over their competitors. But the official line pre-1997 was to kill Apple, did Apple sued Microsoft under the AT laws?
Ironoclast: I completely fail to see how having a JVM on your machine causes you to suffer.
I’m taking this special debate to do the stupid; install J2SE 1.4 on my WinXP laptop (I’m using a Win2k desktop to write this, the laptop is side by side). Simply put it, it makes is slower to log in and off out of my desktop.
Besides, the rest of the argument seems to really disagrees with Sun’s claims.
dwilson: There was once a time when I thought this way as well.
Once upon a time, I supported antitrust laws too, like you now.
dwilson: Then when I actually examined what happens I saw that oftentimes in the U.S. the guy with the most money wins. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer isn’t just a saying, it is true.
That may be true in modern day America, but in 19th Century America, there are plenty of stories of poor peasants becoming rich people. That is the American Dream. Then just before the century closes, a ill-concieved law became in place.
dwilson: Monopolies use the power they gain over one market to tear their way into another. Microsoft is king of this tactic.
I don’t know. Did Microsoft manage to gain dominance in th video streaming market? Nope, Real still has the leading role. What about firewalls – most XP users I know that needs a firewall don’t use Microsoft’s. Or the IM market, all (and I mean all) of the XP users I know that uses IM have either ICQ, AIM or Yahoo installed, or everyone of them.
So much for tearing their way into other markets.
Besides, Netscape downfall was their own fault. Their software isn’t popular with ISVs for the way it is built. They laid huge bets of iPlanet, only to lose with Apache. In all, Netscape is a case of a company manage by geeks, not businessmen.
If Netscape had good products which their customers liked, they wouldn’t have take a 4-year rewrite. In four years, a lot can happen. Even if Microsoft wasn’t a monopoly, IE would still win. Why would I use a slow, underfeatured, old and outdated browser in favour of IE? And the long rewrite was actually caused by bad management (if Opera can rewrite their rendering engine so fast, why can Netscape with far more resourced?).
dwilson: They operate at a loss for all of their products except Windows and Office, the profits of which cover their losses everywhere else and then some… well, and then a lot.
Actually, some of their other divisions have been making profit (like their games, their educational software (Encarta) and the likes). However, MSN, their second biggest loss-making division, is not making money because like every other website, they fell victim to the dotcom crash. MSN is now remodeling themselves as a complete AOL altenative, and perhaps they would be profitable at it.
XBOX, their biggest unprofitable division, was caused by the fact that they underestimated Sony and Nintendo. I’m quite sure they would learn from their mistakes – they always do, and then before you know it, their XBOX dvision is making profit.
This is a similar case with other big companies, even those who don’t have monopolies like IBM, Adobe, etc,, where their profitable software covers their unprofitable ones. It is not unique to Microsoft.
dwilson: Thus OS and Office Suite prices inflate so that they can push competitors out of other markets.
It has been years since Microsoft had increase the prices. They just never decreased them. Their huge profit margin comes from their large userbase. By dividing R&D cost amongst the amount of users, their cost per user decreases and their profit margin increases.
I don’t believe companies should be forced to set a “reasonable” price for their software. they should charge what they want. Many people don’t buy it because of the price, I know many that still uses Office 97 and 95, using Windows 95 and one even Windows 3.1 mainly because they can’t afford upgrading software and don’t need to upgrade their software.
dwilson: Of course you are welcome to your own opinions, but I am just curious as to what it is about anti-trust laws that you find to be stupid.
I find it stupid that it never sides the consumer, but rather incompetent competitors. Like in Standard Oil’s case, how can consumers get hurt by cheap fuel?
I mean convert my PC to a calculator.
No you didn’t. You said make your PC cross-platform with a calculator/remote control.
It might be nice in certain context, but you do know you will pay a price for this cross-platform features and right now for a PC user, the price is limited feature on a capable OS and slow performance.
I hear a lot about Java being slow, yet I just don’t see it. The Java pundits must be doing some bizarre things with Java if you have complaints about it being slow. As I said before, I look at programming technologies as tools in a large utility belt. Just as I don’t drive a nail with a hand saw, I don’t use Java for desktop applications. If you do, then that’s your fault for not knowing your tools.
that doens’t matter, could also be free, HeapFree
GlobalFreePtr or what ever proper function call
on a particular platform. The thing is that right
now much of the java performance hit is in the
area of GC – just run a java application with
verbose:gc flag on and you will see it is not uncommon
that JVM is using 0.7 second to do a global GC
and in J2 V 1.3 this global GC often happens in a row.
No, you accused me of being a lousy programmer and relying on Java because I was daunted by delete() calls in C++. I simply was trying to show that such was not the case. I like Java for what I can do with it; not because of what it can do for me.
Well, I am not a VB guy, but at leat using ActiveX
is a lot easier in VB than in C/C++ where I have to
do reference counting if I am starting from scratch
and VB doesn’t make it nearly as difficult as in Java
to call say the underlaying Win32 layer.
By calling the underlying Win32 layer, you no longer maintain your cross-platform attributes. The point of Java is to NOT call the underlying Win32 layer, or the underlying layers of any operating system. If you want to call underlying Win32 APIs, then use another technology.
Java is supposed to make cross-platform and generic
programming easier, right ? You just alloc with new
and forget it, you just throw an exception and
nobody knows if this e will be catch with in an app
and you don’t allow to deal with pointers…. and
PC users got dog slow software that degrade a P3/P4
to a 486 level machine.
I have not seen that level of degraded performance even with large Swing apps. I think you need to re-evaluate your benchmarks.
I have M$ VM, Sun’s VM (1.3, 1.4) on my computer, but
I just don’t like java app at its current state, soooo
slow, so bloated that remind me in old days to test
if 4MB with win95 was actually possible. It has 7 years
into the play right ? For that long, M$ already got NT
right from 3.1 to win2k – that just doesn’t sounds Sun
is a company that will bet farms on java.
I’m not sure what your point is here. However, I don’t think Microsoft got NT or any of their OSes right until Windows 2000; and then they started going downhill again.
My 2 cents sure would not change a thing in this case,
but I am free to express how I dislike Sun on this topic.
You are, and I am free to voice my opinions as well. However, I think it is important to be honest in our opinions by stating facts and not stooping to hyperbole to make an invalid point.
Guess my next windows isntall will include a step to
separate sun’s jvm from the default configuration.
And isn’t it nice that you have that choice?
As I’ve said before, this article is not about whether you like Java included with Windows or not, it is about binding agreements and contracts, and anti-trust laws in the US. If Microsoft is breaking the law by using their monopoly illegally, then Sun has a right to sue them. Although I always like a good debate on the merits or lack thereof regarding all things technical, I think in the case of this article a better dialog to enage in would be details regarding the laws and contracts pertaining to the case du jour.
Most of the developers I know that uses Java doesn’t use it because it is cross platform rather it gets the job done the best. But anyway, if I use JNI massively in my Java app, wouldn’t it no longer be cross platform?
To comment on the first part of your post, Java is an excellent language. Personally, I use it for its server side capabilities and its cross-platform abilities. I don’t use it for things like string parsers, for instance, because I think Python and Perl are superior to Java in this area.
To answer the JNI question. JNI is what allows you as a Java programmer to use code written in a compiled language like C. Regardless, your C code will have to be compiled on every platform you intend to support. However, if your C code is NOT cross-platform, then your Java program that ties into that C code will not be cross-platform either.
I realize this is terse, but I hope it makes sense.
Ironoclast: I completely fail to see how having a JVM on your machine causes you to suffer.
I’m taking this special debate to do the stupid; install J2SE 1.4 on my WinXP laptop (I’m using a Win2k desktop to write this, the laptop is side by side). Simply put it, it makes is slower to log in and off out of my desktop.
I have that problem without a JVM on my Windows XP machine after installing a few programs.
Besides, the rest of the argument seems to really disagrees with Sun’s claims.
Perhaps it does, but I’m not a Sun advocate so that’s okay.
I think Sun believes if a JVM is readily available, then more people will be more willing to program things in Java. I am in a nice position in my life. I write programs in whatever I feel like writing them in, and people use them. If they need to download a JVM, so be it. If it’s already their, then it’s easier for them. My work is the same either way, so I couldn’t care less regarding the matter either way. Well, that’s not entirely true. I think it would be hysterically funny if Microsoft was forced to ship Sun’s JVM with their OS, after all they’ve done to distroy Java, but I feel this way more for the comic value than anything technical.
Sun needs to stop crying to the courts and depending on friendly judges.
Thanks Scott, this sentence is the type of discussion I was looking forward to in this article.
I do disagree with you on this one though. Sun has enough money and resources to fight with Microsoft; which I think they must do to keep Java alive. You may not like Java, but without it you wouldn’t have C# and possible .NET now. Java caused Microsoft to step up to the plate and create something nice. Hopefully, .NET will cause Sun to improve Java, and so on and so on. This is a very good thing for the customers of the world. You may not like Java, but you may like .NET. If Java improvements can force Microsoft to make .NET better, then haven’t you benefitted? Sure. That’s why I love both technologies and hope they are around a long time.
Microsoft is trying to kill Sun using it’s monopoly. This is illegal and justice must be sought after in the courts. Sun has the right to drag Microsoft into court every single time they use illegal tactics to damage Sun.
“By calling the underlying Win32 layer, you no longer maintain your cross-platform attributes. The point of Java is to NOT call the underlying Win32 layer, or the underlying layers of any operating system. If you want to call underlying Win32 APIs, then use another technology”
OK, so JNI is OK but Win32 is not in the spirit of Java ?
How about call Win32 through JNI ? wihout the underlying
OS, java at best makes a good calculator – where is my
files, my tcp sockets, my m$ taxed nice looking fonts ?
If I have to use an OS on top of another, I would rather
pay for vmware than an highly hyped, inferior pipe dream.
“I have not seen that level of degraded performance even with large Swing apps. I think you need to re-evaluate your benchmarks.”
If I am the only one claiming java is slow, then I might
get sth wrong, but there are a lot of similar voices
on the net, such as this
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:ZoSrme0Un2gC:www.jelovic.com/a…
The article probably failed to mention java’s
habbit of heavily using multi-threading, which
even linux 2.4 kernel couldn’t cope well with
and led IBM try to push a better linux thread
library for more than two years. Smells like
cache trashing, doesn’t it ?
for GUI apps, I think you can open a large file using
both Jedit and Visual Studio 6 and scroll the mouse
wheel to feel the difference.
Java is pretty fast in a tight loop, since there isn’t
any new/GC going on in that situation. But a GUI w Swing
is another story.
Even if M$ break the contract, do they have the option
to not support java ???
“You may not like Java, but without it you wouldn’t have C# and possible .NET now”
If Sun is not so consentrated on anti M$, it could do
a lot better than java in its current state.
I’m afraid that Sun will never catchup. Because soon if not already Intel’s hardware will have caught up with Suns ie the Sparc. And then what card can Sun play?
What Sun should do is learn from the mistakes of some of the former dinosaurs like DEC and IBM. That is: do not get stuck on resting on those laurels whether for nostalgic or other reasons. Eventually customers will start abandoning Sparc as they did the Alpha. Why shouldn’t they when Intel becomes better and cheaper because of the mass volumes? What Sun should do is ‘give up the denial’. Adopt Linux whole heartedly. For heavens sake. Sun is Unix. This is their backyard already. Become THE company around which Linux revolves. As Windows is to MS. Sun is already very familar with the community proces from Java. Split the company in 2 – Sparc and Intel. Adopt/optimize/integrate Java especially for Linux. Develop Java applications for Linux including a desktop and an office suite. See, now it suddenly got some weight and became a turnkey alternative. And if Java has a performance issue now then time is on Sun’s side. Hardware will become faster. Communications lines will become faster. The no. of dominant CPU architectures will keep falling maybe allowing for some fat to be removed from Java. And when it gets fast enough then nobody will care if .NET should be a little faster. If just the price is right. The current slowdown in the PC sector shows that.. Most do not care that they now can get a PC which is 2,3 or 4 times faster than the one they already have. Fast is fast enough.
> because his ideology isn’t one that is forced upon by
> the government but something companies can take up on
> their own.
Can, but won’t. That’s the problem, Microsoft i.e. makes over a million dollar profits on every single one of its employees. Giving away free copies of Windows to schools and universaties, strenghten its monopoloy position even further, but isn’t that good of a deed in my book.
IMO there is a needs for fair and honest goverment control. You just have to look at the US, where several enormous companies have screwed their investors by sending out false information.
I believe a stronger goverment in terms of a more swift and fair (equal) justice system/enforcement and better social securities would benefit the US alot. The current version of a stronger US goverment, giving up individual rights, creating militaristic propaganda and censorship I greatly despise.
> Notice all the companies that followed this ideology,
> they have a team of employees that have high morale and
> most of the time the company has profit.
I totally agree that companies should take good care of its employees. However there are also many people who are unable to work, like retards, physically disabled people, ex-criminals, etc. These people should be looked after by the goverment. Sadly there are also enough people who can and want to work, but still are unable to get a job because of economic slowdown. Goverments should take care of these problems, using tax money.
Currently the US president only has to look through his window at the white house and he can personally see homeless people freeze to death…
> I believe everyone should fall under the same law, which
> means same taxes.
IMO wealthy people should pay more, as they are easily able to. The people who have difficulty funding their primary needs for life (home, food, clothes), should IMO not have to pay any taxes and should be on the receiving end.
>> I also find it ridiculous that Microsoft is allowed to
>> make threats, like for instance, if you penalize us we
>> will stop selling and supporting Windows.
> Again, there is no proof behind this claim
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2002/03/05/microsoft.htm
> Microsoft should have a right to sell their products to
> whomever they like, and to not sell their products to
> whomever they like too.
What if they had a food monopoly and threatened to pull food off the menu? IMO monopolies have great responsabilities. If there was a solid alternative available, like i.e. an up-to-date and well supported version of OS/2, this would be different.
>> I see healthy competition as companies having the
>> oppertunity to compete with eachother.
> If I cut off the legs of Microsoft, how can they run
> along with other runners?
I don’t see why we should cut off Microsoft legs? Why not just make sure they stay within their established monopoly and don’t abuse their position?
By using your example, currently Microsoft is not only a runner but also the referee and is able to set obstacles in place on the course for other runners.
Just do a search for “Microsft threats” on the internet, and you will see how this company has threatened huge companies like Apple and IBM in the past.
> Just to note, Netscape was legally a monopoly pre-IE,
> and harmed Opera’s adoption a lot of anti-competitive
> practices many accuse Microsoft is doing now with IE.
Netscape did not have a solid browser monopoly. The company made deals with companies on an individual basis. The IE monopoly was caused mainly because it was bundled with Windows, using Microsoft’s dominant OS monopoly, thus destroying oppertunies for fair competition.
> can’t really expand their market quickly and gain
> dominance in another market swiftly as you imagine.
It is possible by abusing monopolies. If today Microsoft decides to replace IE with Opera, Opera will eventually become a market standard. If Microsoft would have decided to make sure that Flash would be incompatible with new IE-releases, Flash would never have become a success.
> As for dealing with “abusers” swiftly, it would only
> cause more injustice than justice.
Filing lawsuits isn’t the only way to settle things. An independent goverment body, authorised to make fair market decisions is also an option. That’s how things are done in many European countries.
> The thing that kept Microsoft monopoly, their ISVs,
> would slowly dissapear.
The thing that keeps Windows a monopoly is legacy software compatibility.
> (applications, for example, can no longer depend on IE,
> so they would have to write their own DLLs to replace it
> or write versions for IE, Gecko, Opera, etc.)
Standards will be used. For example with AmigaOS there are many alternative OS components available, all highly compatible with eachother. The only difference would be that Microsoft cannot dictate OS standards anymore.
> Besides, I like to note out that if we actually push to
> strip out Windows, it would strip it down to the kernel
I would have no problem with that, but a GUI is considered to be part of OSes as well (unlike Browser, Clients, Games, Apps, etc). But if 3rd parties would be able to replace the GUI environment with 3rd party solutions (like i.e. is possible to do with AmigaOS) I would personally applaud this.
> In other words, Windows would slowly be reduced to the
> complexity of Linux.
Nonesense, with well defined standards this isn’t necessary. You shouldn’t blindly believe the MS FUD. Linux is a very seperate story. (Open source, lack of direction, based on Unix, etc)
> I do not take these statements as proof. It is a
> statement, it is very easy to lie.
They may not be solid proof, however it is evidence. And if we would like to get philosophical there is never solid proof. Who knows, maybe we do live in a huge matrix.
> They either have to spend a lot of money porting the
> software from 68k to either PPC or x86.
Or MIPS, but yes this is what Amiga companies are doing today, porting AmigaOS to PPC.
> The things that once made Amiga profitable (like film
> studios) don’t seem interested in Amiga.
Incorrect there is still a huge interest among such companies. However I believe it will take alot of time before Amiga will be able offer a suitable solution for them. For example Disney’s Dinosaur animation was animated with classic Amigas, and the lead animators attended an US Amiga show some time ago, giving Amiga Inc free case designs for future Amigas. Many people among such companies are still huge fans.
> If they were to do something so fundamentally stupid
IMO offering an alternative isn’t stupid. I like alternatives.
> But if Gateway actually did made Amigas, you wouldn’t be
> having this debate with me even if Gateway die or loose
> their market power because of it.
What do you mean?
> I’m very sure that your hatred for Microsoft stems out
> from this.
You are wrong, again… I do not hate Microsoft, I do not hate Commodore, I do not hate Atari. Yes I believe their management sucks, but that’s a different story. The current behaviour of Microsoft is made possible by goverments, they are more to blame than Microsoft itself.
> Could you give me the research title, cause I’m having a
> hard time finding it.
Look better yourself, you are asking too much from me. And personally you often use your own opinions as facts, please keep this discussion useful. I am sure you are unable to back up most of your “facts” (which are solely opinions actually).
i, myself, really happy with Sun’s JVM 1.4.1.
for me, it’s worth for download.
and if it instantly included in os box .. cool!
It makes complete sense. You are saying unless what the Java app links to via JNI is available on your target platforms. So much for cross-platform, isn’t it? I can also use JNI to access Win32 DLLs, but Microsoft found a better way doing it. Like JNI, it is optional (but widely popular because of brainless J++ programmers :-).
But it is the one part of Microsoft’s VM that I don’t agree on. But if Sun actually allow Microsoft to give input on the direction of Java for the desktop, (as well as IBM) by giving it to a recognized standards body as its previously promised when introducing Java, .NET wouldn’t even exist. (At least not .NET Framework).
Microsoft is trying to kill Sun using it’s monopoly. This is illegal and justice must be sought after in the courts. Sun has the right to drag Microsoft into court every single time they use illegal tactics to damage Sun
Well, I disagree with this part. Tell me, where is Java’s main market? And Windows monopoly? Now try to link the two, how can Microsoft kill Sun? It would only make it harder for Sun to promote J2SE.
OK, so JNI is OK but Win32 is not in the spirit of Java ?
I never said that did I. I simply answered Rajan’s question about JNI. Personally, if I have the need to access native libraries using JNI, then I don’t write the program in Java. But that’s me.
How about call Win32 through JNI ? wihout the underlying
OS, java at best makes a good calculator – where is my
files, my tcp sockets, my m$ taxed nice looking fonts ?
You don’t have to make native Win32 calls to access files, TCP/IP sockets, fonts, etc. What are you talking about?
If I have to use an OS on top of another, I would rather
pay for vmware than an highly hyped, inferior pipe dream.
Oh yeah. VMWare is MUUUUCH faster than Java apps.
If I am the only one claiming java is slow, then I might
get sth wrong, but there are a lot of similar voices
on the net, such as this
I know. They are wrong too.
I didn’t say that running a Java program through the JVM is just as fast as a native app. However, it is not true that Java apps run at the same speed as Windows 95 on a 486 with 4 MB of RAM, which is what you claimed.
The article probably failed to mention java’s
habbit of heavily using multi-threading, which
even linux 2.4 kernel couldn’t cope well with
and led IBM try to push a better linux thread
library for more than two years. Smells like
cache trashing, doesn’t it ?
I don’t find Java’s multi-threading a big problem at all. Admittedly, if you don’t know what you are doing you will end up locking your user inteface while a potentially long thread executes, but that’s the fault of the programmer not the language.
<for GUI apps, I think you can open a large file using
both Jedit and Visual Studio 6 and scroll the mouse
wheel to feel the difference.
Java is pretty fast in a tight loop, since there isn’t
any new/GC going on in that situation. But a GUI w Swing
is another story.[/i]
Yes, I completely agree that swing is noticably slower than native GUI applications, which is why I rarely use it. It’s still not 486 slow though.
Even if M$ break the contract, do they have the option
to not support java ???
I suppose we will find out when the court rules or Sun and Microsoft reach a settlement.
If Sun is not so consentrated on anti M$, it could do
a lot better than java in its current state.
Actually, I don’t remember Sun’s attorneys ever writing code for Java and I don’t recall Sun’s developers practicing law. I imagine Sun has the staff to concurrently work on both things simultaneously.
Sorry tty, I’m just joking around.
Netscape did not have a solid browser monopoly. The company made deals with companies on an individual basis. The IE monopoly was caused mainly because it was bundled with Windows, using Microsoft’s dominant OS monopoly, thus destroying oppertunies for fair competition
You are claiming that if MS bundles its product with Windows, it becomes a monopoly. This is not true at all. IE was much better than Netscape, you know it, I know it, everybody knows it. It would be pretty stupid to say that IE become dominant because it was bundled with Windows. Everybody knows that Netscape was a failure, their browser sucked a lot. They couldn’t compete with Microsoft. I remember how much I resisted not to switch to IE, but then once I realized that it is much much better I switched. I tried to return back to Netscape, but with version 5.0 it was the worst browser in the world, even worse then lynx. Now you are saying that, none of these are important, Microsoft bundled it with windows, and thus IE become the dominant browser. That’s absolutely stupid to say, and that’s why your idea is totally biased, wrong. You are incapable of making the right conclusion about this simple issue, and you are claiming lots of other stuff against Microsoft.
Look better yourself, you are asking too much from me
That’s why it doesn’t worth to discuss with you and that’s why you shouldn’t post here. Your ideas are totally worthless, if you speak with this attitude.
please keep this discussion useful
Listen to yourself first.
I think Microsoft should be somewhat restricted on certain choices, but I am not sure how should this be done. The problem is that Microsoft’s decisions does affect the competition, even Microsoft is totally innocent. They are a monopoly and thus should be careful about their decisions. One issue is that, we need to make sure that any control over Microsoft’s certain decisions should not cause consumers to switch to more expensive choices, such as Apple’s products. Microsoft should also be able to innovate and pocket in money due to its superior technology, and consumers should enjoy these innovations. That’s a big problem which I don’t have a direct answer, but MS bashers are simply trying to destroy MS and hurt consumers. They don’t really think consumers at all. Actually they are making it harder for simple solutions by demanding outrageous stupid things. Their accusations are totally bogus, worthless, unrelated. If MS bashers succeed we would end up paying more for less. They will not bring better technology to us. They will only make sure that MS doesn’t offer better technology for less, so that competitors can better compete with MS and sell expensive solutions to consumers.
Can, but won’t. That’s the problem, Microsoft i.e. makes over a million dollar profits on every single one of its employees. Giving away free copies of Windows to schools and universaties, strenghten its monopoloy position even further, but isn’t that good of a deed in my book.
I don’t think you understand my message. microsoft only follows Owen’s ideologies in their employee treatment. And my post never implied that Microsoft ever follow Owen’s ideologies, in fact it is otherwise. Like I said, Owen presented it as a optional thing. Not something that should be forced upon by the government.
IMO there is a needs for fair and honest goverment control. You just have to look at the US, where several enormous companies have screwed their investors by sending out false information.
This is illegal in any country that practices true free enterprise. Including socialist/conservative Europe, convervative/liberal USA, communist China, etc. And it is completely besides the point. Note, Enron and Worldcom, the biggest victims of these acts, aren’t even close to monopolies.
However there are also many people who are unable to work, like retards, physically disabled people, ex-criminals, etc.
One of my father’s best friends was a ex-criminal, now he is loads richer than my father. I have seen many cases where people physically-retarded (blind, deaf, dumb, paralyst, etc.) becoming important businessmen. As for retards, there are many NGOs taking care of them, why waste tax money on them? If I sincerely want to help them, I would donate to these non-profit orgs (which I do BTW). but if I’m not sincere, taxing me to help them in my books is stealing.
Sadly there are also enough people who can and want to work, but still are unable to get a job because of economic slowdown.
Actually, with absolutely no government intervention in commercial interest around the world, I doubt there would be a economic slowdown and esp. no depressions. These are caused by governments pushing one industry, or trying to push away another industry.
In fact, many say that China is the source of the global economic slowdown.
Currently the US president only has to look through his window at the white house and he can personally see homeless people freeze to death…
True. To quote; “For the poor always ye have with you…” (John 12 verse 8). ๐ Besides, I watched a documentary on NY homeless people, most of them are physcogically impaired that refused to be help. In such a fast moving world, people that don’t move fast enough just… well…. snap.
IMO wealthy people should pay more, as they are easily able to. The people who have difficulty funding their primary needs for life (home, food, clothes), should IMO not have to pay any taxes and should be on the receiving end.
I personally believe that it is non-profit orgs, like Churches, Buddhist temples, etc. to help these poor people because it would be sincere. WHat you are suggesting is that the government becomes a Robin Hood. My Church runs a children’s home, and I found out that most of the parents can actually climb out of their poverty if they want to, one they don’t believe that they can. Their biggest enemy is themselves.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2002/03/05/microsoft.htm
Nowhere in the article was it mention proof against Microsoft in your claim.
Not even a quote saying something along the line.
What if they had a food monopoly and threatened to pull food off the menu?
LOL, it is impossible to have a food monopoly unless it is one sponsored by the government.
You could probably have a monopoly over certain types of foods though.
By using your example, currently Microsoft is not only a runner but also the referee and is able to set obstacles in place on the course for other runners.
The only obstacle I see Microsoft places in front of their rivals is by being so far ahead. But IMHO, I don’t see much obstacles in beating Microsoft. How do I know? I want to build a company competiting with Microsoft when I have enough capital and business administration experience.
Just do a search for “Microsft threats” on the internet, and you will see how this company has threatened huge companies like Apple and IBM in the past.
Actually, IBM have threaten Microsoft far more than vice-versa. (If I had the time, I can go through them one by one and rebut most of their arguments)
Netscape did not have a solid browser monopoly. The company made deals with companies on an individual basis. The IE monopoly was caused mainly because it was bundled with Windows, using Microsoft’s dominant OS monopoly, thus destroying oppertunies for fair competition.
Actually, Netscape had a pretty solid monopoly. It is harder for me to build a company competing with Netscape then than with Microsoft now. But anyway, if there is no oppurtunities for fair competition, how come Real maintain their lead after 3 years NetShow being bundled into Windows? Sheer luck?
If today Microsoft decides to replace IE with Opera, Opera will eventually become a market standard.
Maybe, unless IE is still being developed by Microsoft. But if Microsoft adopts Opera as the new IE, obviously it would take over its user-base. Just like pre-IE Netscape can easily buy off Opera and make it their browser. It would take control of Netscape’s user base.
If Microsoft would have decided to make sure that Flash would be incompatible with new IE-releases, Flash would never have become a success.
Actually, many accuse Microsoft of doing just that with QuickTime when IE6 came out. Of course, QuickTime stayed compatible. But it would require Microsoft extreme precision to target Flash without breaking other plugins, and with the amount of websites using Flash, surfers that want to view them, they would use another browser.
Filing lawsuits isn’t the only way to settle things. An independent goverment body, authorised to make fair market decisions is also an option. That’s how things are done in many European countries.
Bureaucracy never solves anything. Esp. in the computer world when things move very very fast (in comparison with other industries).
The thing that keeps Windows a monopoly is legacy software compatibility.
Removing middleware breaks that. Do you have any idea how much software uses middleware DLLs? Here’s a suggestion to prove that, get a desktop shell that doesn’t use IE (e.g. old versions of LiteStep), rename mshtml.dll to mshtml.old, and count how many apps cease to work properly or even not run anymore.
Standards will be used.
Doubt it. Amiga OS is a small market, therefore things are better off compatible. Windows is a big market, if some company manage to create a large enough market share in a certain middleware market, it doesn’t have any more reason to pursue standards and compliancy with their competitors.
The only difference would be that Microsoft cannot dictate OS standards anymore.
Microsoft can’t dictate how their product should be? Next what? Microsoft should give 50% of all their profits to African children?
I would have no problem with that, but a GUI is considered to be part of OSes as well
20 years ago, it wasn’t.
unlike Browser
It is now. CyberDog’s remants can be found in Mac OS’ old API (maybe even in Cocoa), for example.
Clients, Games, Apps
I didn’t understand by what you mean by “Clients”, as for games Microsoft only bundles simple games, and the same goes for apps (non-middleware of course).
Nonesense, with well defined standards this isn’t necessary.
If Linux, being far less commercial than Windows, coudln’t have well-defined standards, you think Windows would?
You shouldn’t blindly believe the MS FUD.
If I blindly follow MS FUD, I would say Linux is cancerous, Microsoft would die if the nine dissending states had their way, etc.
Linux is a very seperate story. (Open source, lack of direction, based on Unix, etc)
And Windows would have a clear-cut direction? (Besides, open source doesn’t mean becoming like Linux. Take Apache for example, no many incompatible distributions of it that bears the name “Apache”?)
Unix, BTW, wouldn’t be so disunited if not for the laws you supported.
They may not be solid proof, however it is evidence.
They are never sustainable evidence, there is always reasonable doubt.
Or MIPS, but yes this is what Amiga companies are doing today, porting AmigaOS to PPC.
At that time Gateway dump Amiga, MIPS is as prevelant as PPC now.
Incorrect there is still a huge interest among such companies.
Many of these companies need faster better machines (and clusters of them) with the complexity of animation today. besides, read this; http://www.imapenguin.com:8080/imapenguin/1024503481/index_html
What do you mean?
It means something like Microsoft having two competing OS fighting for the same market.
You are wrong, again… I do not hate Microsoft
Let me rephrase, “I’m very sure that your hatred for Microsoft “anti-competitive actions” stems out from this.
I am sure you are unable to back up most of your “facts” (which are solely opinions actually).
Actually, most of my post is merely MY OPINION. When I say something is a fact, I normally have reference to the proof, unless I’m sure you agree with me that it is indeed a fact. If you disgaree with any of my points where I tell something as a fact but never show reference, please point out, I would be happy to appease it.
Serg, Netscape never had Netscape 5.0. I think you meant 6.0…
Mike, if you don’t mind, lets move the politic talk (left vs. right; socialism vs. capitalism, etc. to private email) That OT thing pretty much took half of my post, and completely irrelevant to the disccusion (like welfare issues)
Mike, I agreed with everything you said with the exception of the following statements:
However there are also many people who are unable to work, like retards, physically disabled people, ex-criminals, etc. These people should be looked after by the goverment. Sadly there are also enough people who can and want to work, but still are unable to get a job because of economic slowdown. Goverments should take care of these problems, using tax money.
I somewhat disagree with this. I think the government should help those who cannot work to some degree (such as not requiring any taxes of them, including sales tax, property tax, gas tax, etc., and allowing them to be educated at government sponsored universities for free), but I think religions and charities are much better at offering welfare services to poor people.
I know some people that are on government welfare and I have personally volunteered at a religious facility which gives food to the poor. Of the two, the religious facility better sees to the needs of the poor while also doing in a dignified way. Often times they let the able poor volunteer at their facility. This provides them with a sense that they are working for their livlihood. I realize that some people are lazy and would rather ruminate at the governments teat. It is better, however, to have to be involved with ones own livelyhood in my opinion.
Currently the US president only has to look through his window at the white house and he can personally see homeless people freeze to death…
I have been in the White House, and I don’t recall any windows that would lend a veiw of the homeless. Also, the sentiment I think you are spreading is one that the current president of the US, George W. Bush, is callous towards the suffering of the poor. I hardly think this is the case. In fact, I read a week or so ago where he is forcing the government to give monies to religions for the strick purpose of clothing and feeding the poor. Something that previous presidents were not letting happen. Since religions usually care better for the poor than the government does, I think this is an excellent move on the president’s part. It shows he’s trying to help the poor.
IMO wealthy people should pay more, as they are easily able to. The people who have difficulty funding their primary needs for life (home, food, clothes), should IMO not have to pay any taxes and should be on the receiving end.
This is precisely how it works, in the US anyway, and anyone that says otherwise is either ignorant or a liar. I started out my career making $12,000.00 a year. The year I got married, I made $14,000.00 a year. I didn’t pay any taxes at all. Now, I make a six figure salary and I pay a lot of taxes.
Well, I disagree with this part. Tell me, where is Java’s main market? And Windows monopoly? Now try to link the two, how can Microsoft kill Sun? It would only make it harder for Sun to promote J2SE.
I worked at Microsoft when .NET was being invented. Until Microsoft lost the lawsuit with Sun regarding their twinked up version of somthing almost but not quite Java, Java was going to be the centerpiece of VisualStudio 7. I recall one VS training/pep meeting where one of the PMs over VS said that Java would vastly overshaddow VB (which isn’t really a large feat in my opinion. Edlin could overshaddow VB) in VS7 and become the main reason that people bought VS. Once they lost the lawsuit with Sun, VS7 was put on hold while they came up with .NET and their new centerpiece, the Java clone C#.
Microsoft owns Java’s largest playing field. By not shipping a JVM and by shipping .NET and supplying a better Java than Java solution for developers (at least on the Windows platform), their intent is to stifle Java out of existance, which would definately hurt Sun.
A lot of the driving force behind .NET and C# was revenge. At least that’s how it appeared to me when I was working their.
Before I go, I stink-talk VB quite a bit. Most of it is in jest, but I do have to say, VB is the only language that I know for which I can find absolutely no reason to ever use.
@Sergio
> You are claiming that if MS bundles its product with
> Windows, it becomes a monopoly.
Wrong, what I said is that this causes unfairness with regard to the competition. There was a time when Netscape was a far better solution than IE. After the Windows bundling, it did not make sense anymore for PC manufacturers to deal with Netscape, as IE is already included with the package. What I don’t understand is that this is so hard to understand for you guys.
Netscape was unable to properly continue proper development of their product, and everyone knows the rest of the story.
> That’s why it doesn’t worth to discuss with you and
> that’s why you shouldn’t post here. Your ideas are
> totally worthless, if you speak with this attitude.
Don’t start to get personal. I think that many of your ideas completely worthless as well, so what?
I said to Rajan that those figures were based on reliable sources. He asked me to tell him which sources, I was helpful to provide him the sources. Then he asks me to search online documents for him! Well IMO that is starting to get over the top. That’s not my job.
You continue to attack me even after I post politely. Honestly, what is your problem? All I see you do is sit here and hurl insults at “Microsoft bashers.” Myself disagreeing with a companies business practice is not bashing them. Your post about injunctions was innacurrate as PRELIMINARY injunctions cannot be overturned on appeal. Why? THEY CANNOT BE APPEALED.
I don’t believe you are from the U.S. so I don’t expect you to know U.S. law very well, but I do expect you to stop flaming me. It is getting pretty annoying. Nobody likes to be insulted, especially in broken English.
@ rajan r
> Note, Enron and Worldcom, the biggest victims of these
> acts, aren’t even close to monopolies.
The point was that goverment control is necessary in commercial markets, as commercial companies often abuse their position for their own short term interest.
The biggest victims were BTW investors and employees.
> One of my father’s best friends was a ex-criminal, now
> he is loads richer than my father. I have seen many
> cases where people physically-retarded (blind, deaf,
> dumb, paralyst, etc.) becoming important businessmen.
That’s besides the point. There are many more in the same position who weren’t that lucky to find a job. And many criminals are rich, just like some abusing companies.
> but if I’m not sincere, taxing me to help them in my
> books is stealing.
IMO you are very selfish. You`re sounding like Mr Scrooge.
> Actually, with absolutely no government intervention in
> commercial interest around the world, I doubt there
> would be a economic slowdown and esp. no depressions.
I would applaud true free markets. Sadly the rich western countries unfairly protect their markets causing missery in other parts of the world.
> These are caused by governments pushing one industry, or
> trying to push away another industry.
No, these issues are far more complex. I believe the current despression mainly is caused by fear for war. War is mostly caused by missery. Solve the missery and unfairness in the world, and most of our problems will be solved.
> Mike, if you don’t mind, lets move the politic talk
> (left vs. right; socialism vs. capitalism, etc. to
> private email)
Sure, you know my email adres.
@ Iconoclast
> I have been in the White House, and I don’t recall any
> windows that would lend a veiw of the homeless.
In front of the White House there’s a meeting place for the homeless. I have seen this in a current Dutch documentary some days ago. My point was that the president is fully aware of some of the missery.
> This is precisely how it works, in the US anyway
The response was to Rajan r, who wants to see no destinction between people and so neglect individual situations. I simply gave him my point of view.
But based on what I have experienced myself while travelling through the US and Europe, I do believe West-European countries have much “friendlier” systems causing much lesser missery among people during economic slowdowns.
@rajan
“I find it stupid that it never sides the consumer, but rather incompetent competitors. Like in Standard Oil’s case, how can consumers get hurt by cheap fuel?”
In the long term, they can. First, big company underbids all others, therefore squashing the competition. When all competition is gone, they can raise the prices all the way they want. If another start-up company enters the scene, they buy it or threaten it out of the market.
regards,
Stephan
“You don’t have to make native Win32 calls to access files, TCP/IP sockets, fonts, etc. What are you talking about? ”
IoCompletionPort – the NT way of high performance networking and I/O ??
Using mature IME, TSF, Displaying non codepage based languages using Unicode truetype fonts ??
“Oh yeah. VMWare is MUUUUCH faster than Java apps.”
At least apps under VMWare don’t have noticeable repaint problem – an empty background first , then 1 second later every thing got into place – a big slow flicker. This is probably the perceived slowness of java. A 486 with win95 won’t be this “slow”.
“I know. They are wrong too”
Right/wrong doesn’t matter here, you are the minority. If you insist on snow’s color should be called “black”, then your right of choice would be respected, but not your judgement, until you can give either a proof or the faults in other’s “java is slow accusation”.
“I don’t find Java’s multi-threading a big problem at all. Admittedly, if you don’t know what you are doing you will end up locking your user inteface while a potentially long thread executes, but that’s the fault of the programmer not the language”
Hehe, you know all too well with your own experience, huh ๐
Sparc CUP got up to 4096 hardware contexts, consumer PCs got none – I suspect your multi-threaded C++ software is as “fast” as your java apps, so surely you can’t tell the speed difference between the two categories, ๐
” ———
If Sun is not so consentrated on anti M$, it could do
a lot better than java in its current state.
Actually, I don’t remember Sun’s attorneys ever writing code for Java and I don’t recall Sun’s developers practicing law. I imagine Sun has the staff to concurrently work on both things simultaneously.
————”
Iconoclast:
You are too technically oriented, life has more than black and white two colors – When the news that Sun won in the court, what do you think Sun’s programmers would have beening doing ? Still developing the Holy language ? I think not – checking CNN would be the very least, huh ? Calling buddies, girl/boy firends, ICQ ex college roommates, high/low fives, going to the coffee room and looking for that left over 6 pack, cig. butts, 30 min. hotdog break extended to a 4 hour all-you-can-eat buffet party, calling for group/division, if not company, dinnign out – You check all that might apply.
Seriously, you probably know where is java’s largest desktop target and who knows Windows’ inside out – Redmond or Santa Clara
IoCompletionPort – the NT way of high performance networking and I/O ??
Why you would want to make native TCP/IP calls when programming in Java is beyond me. If those are the calls you want to make, then don’t use Java. Simple.
Using mature IME, TSF, Displaying non codepage based languages using Unicode truetype fonts ??
You don’t want to go down the internationalization path with me; especially regarding Asian languages. Since you brought it up, however, Java applications are capable of using whatever input method editor or front end processor is available on the OS. On OSes such as Novell’s Netware, that don’t have their own IME or FEP, you can implement one in Java if you want to (and someone has). There is no need whatsoever to write native calls to get IME support.
As for non-codepage based lanugages; there is no such thing. All languages have a codepage based mechanism of displaying characters. There are multibyte character sets that are based on non-ascii codepages such as Shift-JIS, EUC and BIG5 (used in Japan and China), but these are considered codepages.
Unicode is an encoding which supports many of the world’s languages. Unicode is not considered a codepage, but rather an encoding. Java supports Unicode by default in all languages; including English. There is no need to make native calls to the OS to achieve this support.
Java by default uses Unicode to represent ALL languages. If you have ever written a program using Unicode, you can see that this is a good choice. Most English speaking programmers writing Windows programs, for instance, tend to write their software using the 1252 Codepage (or the 437 codepage for older software). Then, when they try for Unicode support, they often times implement codepage to Unicode conversions on their strings instead of writing their code correctly to start with. Therefore they must also implement Unicode to codepage conversions to complete the round trip. This can cause problems in Asian languages due to the way the Unicode standard has implemented support for these languages. Often times you will see characters that are changed into something else during this round-trip conversion. From a developers standpoint, the Java way is cleaner and less prone to error than other languages.
By the way, most people do not have Unicode true type fonts on their machines because they are very expensive. Instead, Unicode uses the codepage based fonts on their machines to render the strings. That is why you will sometimes get a series of question marks when you try to display foreign text (especially from countries that do not use roman letters); there isn’t a font available which supports that language.
Overall, I don’t understand what you were trying to say. You do not have to write native calls in Java to achieve international support for your software. Java makes i18n tasks extremely easy. No offense, but I just don’t think you know that much about the subject.
“Oh yeah. VMWare is MUUUUCH faster than Java apps.”
At least apps under VMWare don’t have noticeable repaint problem – an empty background first , then 1 second later every thing got into place – a big slow flicker. This is probably the perceived slowness of java. A 486 with win95 won’t be this “slow”.
I assume by flicker you are referring to a developer who has not used double-buffering on their UI. Again, a developer problem. You are right about the repaint. However, Java is not the only language that does this. There are many C++ applications that act the same way. Word XP, for example, can’t draw graphics correctly period. I would rather wait a second for the screen to be filled in than never have it draw correctly as in Word’s case.
Now, I think the largest pure Java applications I have used are ThinkFree Office and Forte for Java. I have used PCs since the 8088, so I think I’m pretty accurate when I say that both of these applications are very useable and are definately not “Windows 95 on a 486 with 4MB of RAM” quality as you have suggested.
Right/wrong doesn’t matter here, you are the minority.
No, right and wrong always matter. Popular opinion does not make something accurate or correct. The world used to think the Earth was flat. Did that make it so? No. People who claim Java is slow have not used it, or don’t know what they are doing. I’m not saying that Java is the greatest language on the Earth. I don’t think their is one. All languages have their strengths and weaknesses. But to say that Java is all weaknesses and has no value is plain and simply untrue.
My view on the subject is that if it is okay for you to spout untruths regarding Java, then it is my right to correct you.
…until you can give either a proof or the faults in other’s “java is slow accusation”.
I’ve done my own benchmarks on Java apps. Why don’t you do the same. It is not my responsibility nor my desire to force educate you. Why don’t you throw out some technical data to back up your “Windows 95 on a 486 with 4MB or RAM” claim?
Hehe, you know all too well with your own experience, huh ๐
No, I know how to write threaded programs. I have worked with crappy programmers in the past though.
Sparc CUP got up to 4096 hardware contexts, consumer PCs got none – I suspect your multi-threaded C++ software is as “fast” as your java apps, so surely you can’t tell the speed difference between the two categories, ๐
I don’t have any idea what you’re saying. I never claimed Java ran as fast as natively compiled code. All I said was that it is very usable (not 486 level quality).
You are too technically oriented, life has more than black and white two colors – When the news that Sun won in the court, what do you think Sun’s programmers would have beening doing ? Still developing the Holy language ? I think not – checking CNN would be the very least, huh ? Calling buddies, girl/boy firends, ICQ ex college roommates, high/low fives, going to the coffee room and looking for that left over 6 pack, cig. butts, 30 min. hotdog break extended to a 4 hour all-you-can-eat buffet party, calling for group/division, if not company, dinnign out – You check all that might apply.
And how in the world does any of this have any bearing whatsoever on anything that anybody has said or done ever in the entire history of the Earth other than a few people were happy they won? I don’t know what conclusion you are drawing from this, but I prefer logical conclusions drawn through understanding; call them technical if you will.
Seriously, you probably know where is java’s largest desktop target and who knows Windows’ inside out – Redmond or Santa Clara
I know exactly who Java’s largest desktop audience is. Did you miss it the first fifty times I stated it? That is what this whole discussion has been about hasn’t it?
You continue to attack me even after I post politely.
I don’t attack you, I attack your ideas.
Honestly, what is your problem? All I see you do is sit here and hurl insults at “Microsoft bashers.”
All I do is express my opinions.
Myself disagreeing with a companies business practice is not bashing them.
Well you do bash them or not, we are discussing the ideas and the issues here. The point is to be honest and not so biased.
Your post about injunctions was innacurrate as PRELIMINARY injunctions cannot be overturned on appeal. Why? THEY CANNOT BE APPEALED.
I showed you a page which shows it can be done, and you said no. I already know what you know, there is nothing new in what you say.
I don’t believe you are from the U.S. so I don’t expect you to know U.S. law very well, but I do expect you to stop flaming me.
Your intellectual level may cause you to separate ideas based on the origin of the person, but I don’t see why you should know better unless you are particularly interested in law.
It is getting pretty annoying. Nobody likes to be insulted, especially in broken English.
I don’t know what you mean here. If you are trying to say that you feel you are insulted, sorry I didn’t mean to. I found the idea stupid, and that’s it. But if you are trying to make fun of my English, well hehe have a nice day.
Mike Bouma: There was a time when Netscape was a far better solution than IE.
Yeah. IE 1.0. Even if Microsoft didn’t bundle IE into Windows, they would win in the end. For ISPs, IE is far more cheaper for ISPs, ISVs and OEMs (there is no price, plus using IE DLLs in their software is way easier than licensing software from Netscape). When IE was capturing the market, it was even better than my beloved favourite browser, Opera.
Mike Bouma: After the Windows bundling, it did not make sense anymore for PC manufacturers to deal with Netscape
Actually, IBM had deals with Netscape for Windows 95, therefore you see Netscape bundled on every Windows 95 machine (IE 1.0 was bundled with Windows at that time, or was it 2.0?)
Besides, most PC manufacturers at that time didn’t even bundle a browser. Only big ones like IBM, Compaq and HP. Heck, IIRC, Dell didn’t bundle a browser (suprise, suprise). At that time, it was normally ISPs that bundle browsers. Most of the PC sold then (and now) is made by white-box makers that couldn’t be bothered in bundling any other software other than Windows.
Mike Bouma: Netscape was unable to properly continue proper development of their product
Hmmm, Netscape at that time had way more money than Opera, how come Opera can have multiple rewrites in their history? Quick rewrites, mind you. And Netscape have even more money when AOL bought them.
If the management of Mozilla is any indicator, Netscape couldn’t manage their developers properly and have clear roadmaps (how many times did Mozilla sidetrack to add on something completely unnessecary, like the latest, XUL?)
Mike Bouma: and everyone knows the rest of the story.
Apparently, the story is not real. It is one-sided.
Mike Bouma: He asked me to tell him which sources, I was helpful to provide him the sources. Then he asks me to search online documents for him!
I did that because I couldn’t find the research paper. I spent half an hour searching for it, and frankly my patience ran out. The links you provided later help.
The least you could do is provide the study title.
Mike Bouma: The biggest victims were BTW investors and employees.
The biggest part of Enron and Worldcom is investors and employees, not greddy executives.
Mike Bouma: That’s besides the point. There are many more in the same position who weren’t that lucky to find a job. And many criminals are rich, just like some abusing companies.
No, that is completely the point. Malaysian society, particulary the Muslim part of it aren’t all that kind to ex-criminals, particulary for a crime under Islamic law means the death penalty. He manage to rise above that taboo, and is quite successful. My point is that it is extremely possible for someone to rise above their problems if they want to. Especially in the West (and down south in Australia) where there is less taboos.
Mike Bouma: IMO you are very selfish. You`re sounding like Mr Scrooge.
I give my tithes to church, and I have donated a lot of money to charities when most kids my age either save it for themselves or use it for themselves. I’m selfish? If I didn’t tithe or donate, I would be sitting in front of a dual Athlon MP 1800+ with all the trimmings.
Mike Bouma: I would applaud true free markets. Sadly the rich western countries unfairly protect their markets causing missery in other parts of the world.
True, For example EU subsidizes agriculture products to protect their farmers making African farmers loose their competitive egde. This is sad especially since EU farmers could potentially reduce their cost in many many ways, and wouldn’t anymore require government assistance.
Mike Bouma: No, these issues are far more complex. I believe the current despression mainly is caused by fear for war.
The slowdown was cause just when China entered the WTO. The threat of war only started after Sept 11. The threat of war only caused it to go down future.
Mike Bouma: War is mostly caused by missery. Solve the missery and unfairness in the world, and most of our problems will be solved.
Actually, the current war is all caused by Saudi Arabia. Their Wahhabism ideology promotes religious and racial intolerance and quite extremist. It is the root of al-Qaeda, and the war of Iraq is just there to replace Saudi Arabia’s oil source, so action against the root of the conflict can be solved.
South America went through a lot of misery, far more than the children of Iraq sometimes. Why isn’t there war there?
Mike Bouma: Sure, you know my email adres.
Dang, I already wrote the message here, but I would email you by tonight
Stephan Aspridis: In the long term, they can. First, big company underbids all others, therefore squashing the competition. When all competition is gone, they can raise the prices all the way they want. If another start-up company enters the scene, they buy it or threaten it out of the market.
I was expecting this answer :-). Answer, no. Why can’t the competitors follow Standard Oil’s style and cut cost? Did anyone sue Dell of anti-trust violations when theys started the PC price war? Why couldn’t Standard Oil start a price war? The difference is that it is impossible for Dell to become a monopoly, while for Standard Oil, the possiblity is high, unless Standard Oil has some competent competitors.
So instead of outsmarting a remarkable business move by Standard Oil that should be praised not ridiculed (I myself don’t think I could cut cost like Standard Oil could), they decided to use the crybaby law. Sorry to say, but I don’t have even an iota of respect for these competitors that sued Standard Oil.
You misunderstood me, I am not getting personal at all. I am saying that, if your attitude is “what I say is always right and I don’t have to show why and how” attitude or at least if you don’t think that you should give some reasonable explanation where we can also see your point, then your statements become worthless. It is not that I disagree with you, and there are points which I agree with you too. It is the attitude. I mean you could be a troll here, how can we differentiate you from a troll, unless you come forward and provide some insight into your ideas.
@ Sergio
I am not saying I am right, I give my points of view. And my statement regarding the millions of Java developers isn’t my personal point of view, it is data provided by generally considered reliable sources/research studies.
I provided several links as references, I also provided information on the original source of this information. If you are really genuinely interested you could have contacted the IDC instead. You may be able to order this report from them.
A quote:
http://www.idg.net/idgns/2000/06/06/UPDATEAppleGamesTopSunHeads.sht…
IDG, June 06, 2000: “McNealy spent the bulk of today’s speech re-emphasizing Java’s strengths and providing some statistics on usage of the technology. Citing figures from market research company International Data Corp. (IDC), he said there are currently more than 2.5 million Java developers, and that number is expected to rise to 4 million by 2003. There were 20 million Java smart cards shipped last year, with 100 million due this year and 250 million the year after, he added.”
I truly think it is strange that you think that the IDC would allow such statements to be made without foundation. There are hundreds of websites cross-posting this information, however IMO the bottom line is that, if you want to believe the earth is flat, then how the hell do you expect me to “prove” you otherwise over the internet?
however IMO the bottom line is that, if you want to believe the earth is flat, then how the hell do you expect me to “prove” you otherwise over the internet?
By showing a picture of a globe :-). Yeah, I have to agree here with Bouma. Sergio, what I, you, Mike and dwilson posts here is our *opinions*, never was and never will become facts. It may be founded about facts, but opinions is always how you see the facts.
Miles,
You said
The whole reason that Sun is pursuing this is not because they’re dying and need to struggle to keep Java alive and well. The idea behind all this is to keep Java from becoming so fragmented that it’s nearly unrecognizable from Microsoft’s Java and standard Java. I’m sure if you made a programming language that was widely adopted over the Internet which was then taken and extended by a company with a monopoly on the computer industry you’d be mad too. Microsoft created their Java VM to put Sun out of business by having customers think that Sun’s Java was both unnecessary and buggy due to it not being entirely compatable with a large number of Java apps and applets programmed for Microsoft’s VM.
This is nothing new to Microsoft and it’s really a good thing that the courts are finally telling Microsoft to quit it with their embrace and extend practices.
Unfortantly you miss the entire point in the court case.
IBM, BEA, Apple, have all extended Java, (IBM especially at the J2EE level and Write Once Run Everywhere doesn’t exist at that level, not that it ever really worked that way)
So if Sun is so bent on keeping the language Pure as you state, they would have all of these companies in the courts to keep the language pure.
The funny thing is that MS JVM is one hundred percent compatable JVM for 1.1x and had a few extensions that allowed interop with COM and other Features. (which Apple and IBM even did for parts where Speed was a concern)
I will say that Sun has done great work in 1.4.1 but Still has a LONG WAYS to go in the speed department in the JVM. Almost every other JVM on the market is still faster.
IOW Sun should get out of the courts and give the market a reason to use their products instead of trying to force it down our throats.
Linux folks have rejected Java in droves. and the true cross platform for the web has become flash. sun is floundering. I imagine by the end of 2003, IBM will finally put it out of its misery so that the platform can finally stableize. IBM is doing more for JAVA these days than Sun is.
Douglas