The order to carry Java with Windows will remain in force pending the final outcome of Sun Microsystem’s antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft. According to Sun, Microsoft tried to marginalise Java by unfair usage of its software monopoly position, making Windows incompatible with its platform independent programming language. More info at CBSNews.com and CNET News.com.
Though I don’t like the idea of forcing someone to carry a competing product, I really do think that this decision is in the best interrest of the consumer…
Is Sun’s bottom line now a function of the size of it’s legal team? If customers want java, then they’ll get java. If something as capable (or yikes… better) is available as an alternative then so be it.
Sun needs to stop crying to the courts and depending on friendly judges. Sun needs to stop pimping java and give the computing world something better than a bloated mess.
In the United States, when a provider reaches a certain level of ubiquity, they become a Utility, like the telephone company or the Electric company. Since Microsoft has reached it’s level of dominance in the desktop and server markets, shouldn’t they also be treated as a utility, which would allow the government to dictate their rates and “innovations”? What’s your (all you osnews reader’s) thoughts on this?
They could force to include Sun’s JVM (Since MS’s JVM is 5 years old, and buggy, and not able to run many brandnew java programs or applets), or force not to include any JVM (Sun’s Java, MS’s Java, MS’s .NET).
Nice decision.
Scott, I agree that Sun has made the Java API a mess of classes, but have you poked-around in the Windows API lately? It’s really no better, maybe even worse!
IMO this is a very good thing. Microsoft has grown just too much leaving too many smaller more innovative competitors in the shadows. The company also uses its desktop OS monopoly to further itself into different market segments. (Word Processors, Games, Internet Services, Programming languages and even Hardware).
I believe it is a shame that goverments have been so blind to let it come to this.
MS’s VM may be older and buggier, but Sun’s VM is slow. I wonder if people will turn away from Java if they use this VM in large numbers.
I understand you point… BUT it really supports my argument. If the WinAPI was so bad, and if Sun had the solution their $300 million marketing shell game claims, rational customers would be opting for their products.
This and many others against MS are engineered by companies that cannot compete with the MS juggernaught. Business models based on litigation are NOT healthy for a free market economy.
“This case and…”
^^^^
Interesting point but I think that this case is about .NET and C# not java virtual machines. .NET/C# could absolutely ruin java… and Sun knows it…
Actually, Sun’s latest JVM (1.4.1) is very very fast, 50 percent faster than 1.3.6. Please stop this Sun’s JVM sucks myth. It is no longer true. It was, but not anymore.
MS was putting old JVM, since it was BAD for Java. It was Java 1.2, and not able to run Java 1.3 or 1.4 applications. If MS cared about pleasing their customers over killing Java, they would already put Sun’s JVM. Sun offered it many times, but MS declined.
Two things could be fair:
– Not letting MS to put ANY VM in Windows (including .NET VM).
– Forcing MS to put Sun’s latest VM. (Note that, in this way, MS gained right to include .NET runtime in their next releases in my opinion)
So, I think it is a good decision.
I don’t have a problem with Sun’s products. I use OpenOffice. But it becomes immediately clear when I run certain Java applications that the Microsoft VM is much faster than the Sun VM. And I’m running a 2 Ghz machine with 512 meg. of ram so my hardware isn’t the issue here. I personally don’t care what VM they use but the Sun VM is a resource hog and that may affect peoples impression of Java.
.NET/C# cannot ruin Java, since .NET is not cross platform yet, and I don’t think it ever will be. In any case, .NET can reach the cross platform degree of Java in minimum 5 years. Java is 8 years old. There is a good JVM implementation on nearly every platform. They are tested, and optimized for years, and working NOW.
Mono, for instance, is announced more than one year ago, still not finished. MS is preparing new .NET release. How optimized, and robust will it be? Will you risk? I won’t, since Java is working already on many platforms, and there is nothing that .NET can do but Java can’t.
.NET, if it really becomes cross platform, which I really don’t think so, will have lots of compatibility problems anyway. Whole .NET is NOT submitted to ECMA. There are parts of .NET related with Passport, and Win32. What about .NET on Mac OSX and Solaris?
In any case, this is a good decision.
I don’t care, as long as I have the option of either uninstalling it or choosing to not install it at all during set up. Other companies (like IBM) make competing JVM’s, and I use it along with Eclipse when I code; Sun may have created Java, but they’ve fallen behind IBM, BEA and others. McNeally is too busy fighting big bad Microsoft. Should they start forcing Microsoft to bundle Flash too, I see more sites using Flash than Java.
The whole reason that Sun is pursuing this is not because they’re dying and need to struggle to keep Java alive and well. The idea behind all this is to keep Java from becoming so fragmented that it’s nearly unrecognizable from Microsoft’s Java and standard Java. I’m sure if you made a programming language that was widely adopted over the Internet which was then taken and extended by a company with a monopoly on the computer industry you’d be mad too. Microsoft created their Java VM to put Sun out of business by having customers think that Sun’s Java was both unnecessary and buggy due to it not being entirely compatable with a large number of Java apps and applets programmed for Microsoft’s VM.
This is nothing new to Microsoft and it’s really a good thing that the courts are finally telling Microsoft to quit it with their embrace and extend practices.
I think a fair order would be to require Microsoft to include a more recent version of java vm (i.e. 1.3 or above). But Microsoft should have a choice of picking it from other java competitors (i.e. java vm from IBM).
Microsoft forces their licensee’s to only install Windows on their machines. Why not force them to integrate Sun’s Java?
Microsoft combats against everything they can’t control, things they are not the only one who earns the money and things that are free. They couldn’t control Java in the past so they gave up on it and created their own “Java” – called .NET. Well, every company can build and deal with whatever they want – as long it conforms to the law. This is the basic of our business-rules. But our economic-system comes in great danger if one company owns a whole market. And this is what happendes over the last years in the OS market. Any activity that could stop this situation is justifiable.
Merry (OS)XMas 😉
Ralf.
>>>The whole reason that Sun is pursuing this is not because they’re dying and need to struggle to keep Java alive and well. The idea behind all this is to keep Java from becoming so fragmented that it’s nearly unrecognizable from Microsoft’s Java and standard Java.
IBM and BEA control java in all practical purposes. SUN is behind Oracle in 4th place in the java market.
So the only reason Sun is pursuing this is to get back into the java game against IBM/BEA/Oracle by suing Mircosoft. This preliminary injunction is not fair to IBM/BEA/Oracle.
>>>Microsoft forces their licensee’s to only install Windows on their machines. Why not force them to integrate Sun’s Java?
Because that will be anti-trust by itself. You can’t force this integration because it hurts the top 3 players in the java market (Sun is behind IBM/BEA/Oracle in the java market.)
“So the only reason Sun is pursuing this is to get back into the java game against IBM/BEA/Oracle by suing Mircosoft.”
This does not make sense, and wrong. What is the relation between Sun’s getting Java market from the hand of other three and its pursuing MS to put their JVM? Can extend your claim?
oohhh – poor IBM/BEA/Oracle! They are so small and less powerfull companys!
In fact IBM – for example – control Java on their patforms (AIX/zOS). And, after some years of java-development with IBM’s Java-development patform, I have to say, that IBM’s Java-VM is a pice of crap! It is never up-to-date, dog-slow, filled with propritay add-ons and no 64Bit implementation is available – although the sell 64Bit machines & OSes.
Sun should get back against IBM/BEA/Oracle!
Competition animates business!
Ralf.
Sorry, forgot to add why I see no connection:
All the BEA’s, Oracle’s, IBM’s programs work with Sun’s JVM. They do not work with MS’s JVM. So, I see there is no relation.
Ok, if you’re going to force Microsoft to include something in Windows, why Java? Why not include someting useful instead?
Though Java does have its place on the server, I haven’t seen it used for much on the desktop accept crappy animations and rollovers in web pages, along with a few slow-ass GUI apps that are slow, clunky (compared to native apps) and nearly unsable.
I say if you want Java, then download it, but don’t force me or anybody else to install this crap if we don’t want to.
*lol* you would be suprised if you try to run WebSphere on an not-IBM Java-VM. Forget it!
Ralf.
CroanoN
With Windows carrying, what, 94% of the installations, is cross platform anything more than a red herring at this time?
Miles
Sun is obviously more than java; nobody said anything about them kicking the bucket. Sun has been aggressively going after MS with java. The attack is faltering and C# is like the sword of Damocles hanging over Sun’s huge investment. Rather than letting things rest on merit, Sun intends to use the courts to ensure some osrt of success.
“*lol* you would be suprised if you try to run WebSphere on an not-IBM Java-VM. Forget it!
Ralf. ”
I am running WebSphere with Sun’s JVM at work.
>I haven’t seen it used for much on the desktop accept crappy >animations and rollovers in web pages, along with a few >slow-ass GUI apps that are slow, clunky (compared to native >apps) and nearly unsable.
That times are over for some days now. On modern hardware, Java-Apps are way usable enough for every-day use.
See: LimeWire, NetBeans or JEdit – to just name three great Java-Apps.
Ralf.
Do you use it only for HTTP server and servlet-engine or do you use the full J2EE stack (Session EJBs & Entity EJBs)?
Ralf.
“CroanoN
With Windows carrying, what, 94% of the installations, is cross platform anything more than a red herring at this time?”
Yes, but it is changing. How many people were using Linux as a desktop computer 5 years ago? How many is using now? Also, Mac OSX is getting more and more popular. So, cross platform compatibility is gaining popularity. This is why VMs are getting popularity.
%6, is not a small number in the end. It means millions of computers.
Sure, 6% are real people. Why I’m using Debian right now…
But, 6% cannot have an impact on a business model as large as MS’s.
“Do you use it only for HTTP server and servlet-engine or do you use the full J2EE stack (Session EJBs & Entity EJBs)?
Ralf.”
I use it only as a Servlet engine. (I would use Resin or Jetty, Tomcat, Orion, JBoss, or anything else if it was my choice though. I hate Websphere.) I just checked it out. As you said, there are problems with running WebSphere with different JVMs, and IBM is trying to produce patches! : ))))
I think on the server side, you have to use HP JVM for HP-UX, on Solaris, you have to use Sun’s JVM, and on Windows, you have to use IBM’s, to run WebSphere. On client side, it of course, doesn’t matter. Since I am on Solaris, Sun’s JVM works with Websphere.
In any case, the best is JBoss. ; )
“Sure, 6% are real people. Why I’m using Debian right now…
But, 6% cannot have an impact on a business model as large as MS’s.”
Scott, you do not understand:
.NET: %94, not mature.
JAVA: %100 (Well, nearly), optimized, tested, mature.
%6 is the loss that you will make if you use .NET. What will you gain to compensate? .NET is more expensive, not tested, not trustable, supports less machines than Java.
To all of you who are claiming “How unfair to MS!” I believe you are very much in the wrong. It isn’t a question of “If Sun’s VM were better people would already use it.” That isn’t what this case is about. The question is, is Microsoft mis-using its monopoly to crush smaller competitors? In Sun’s case, the answer is yes. This is against the law in the United States. All most users will see of Java is the JVM that ships on their copy of Windows. Most developers know this, and thus have to go with MS’s .NET, which they know will be supported. U.S. law forbids Microsoft using its monopoly of the OS market to gain control of the development market. This injunction prevents them from doing just that, and thus is correct according to the law. Is it fair to force MS to distribute a competitors product? Maybe not. But it certainly isn’t good for customers for MS to destroy Java by distributing old, weak versions of the JVM.
CroanoN wrote: “NET/C# cannot ruin Java, since .NET is not cross platform yet, and I don’t think it ever will be. ”
This is a flat out lie. .NET is an open API, meaning that while the API’s implementation is closed, the API itself is open (meaning others can write and distribute their own implementations of this API. This is already happening in the *nix world with Mono. It is expected that Mono will be completed sometime in January, and will allow .Net development under Linux (and I believe most other *nixes). While MS itself isn’t pushing cross-platform .Net, they did open the door for it, and it is happening.
I’m not in a position to debate your position
Let’s think a bit about .NET though… If I’m not mistaken, there are currently many languages filtering through .NET. For Pete’s sake, I can target my SML and Mercury work to .NET! I expect to see many languages, expert systems, and e-business solutions soon back-end through .NET soon. What’s targeting the java VM? Java simply can’t compete; it’s slow, full of obfuscation, and fails to scale. It honestly seems that java can only compete if a blackrobe raps his hammer down and grants Sun some litigation-based relief. How is computing best represented by a single judge?
The following parts of .NET are not submitted to ECMA. You can check it out:
– ADO.NET
– Enterprise Services. (Which includes distributed transactions etc.)
– Winforms.
….
I never lie.
If Microsoft is required to include Sun’s JVM with Windows will they also be required to distribute upgrades/fixes through their own update service (Windows Update) or will Sun take over from that point on? If they don’t use Windows Update their next version will eventually grow stale because your average user does not download updates outside of Windows update, and most users don’t do that either. So they may get version 1.4 of their JVM on Windows, but when 1.5+ comes out it may only be the same geeks who’d update on their own now actually download the update. The rest of the world will keep using what came on their machine, and eventually Sun will be in the same boat of people using an outdated JVM.
“Lie” was probably a little bit too strong of words.
Sun is not seeking equanimity in the software industry. They are trying to replace MS. This is not “touchy feely” stuff; it’s big business. Sun is trying to use the legal system to chip pieces off the company that has won in the free market.
What kind of fair person seeks to cripple someone for being a success? If MS has been naughty with OS licenses fine… but let’s not give competitors cart blanche to make up for their inadequacies.
When the day comes where all we have to choose from when buying a new computer OS is microsoft, microsoft, or microsoft, then were all hosed.
Competition is good. Linux, Beos, MacOS, Lindows, whatever. I don’t care as long as there is something else besides microsoft.
Microsoft should have been broken into several smaller companies. Too bad the judge in the case had his/her head up their high knee.
– Mark
“SML and Mercury work to .NET!” etc.
Scott, .NET cannot cover all the languages. .NET VM spec is more generic than JVM, in the sense that it is more flexible in certain parts to let more languages to be fit in, but this does not mean all the languages will fit in.
.NET languages are NOT real languages. They are crippled versions to fit in .NET runtime. .NET has only one language, called MSIL. All the other languages are syntatic sugars of the same thing. C# only fits perfectly into .NET. It is designed in that way. Can you show me a COBOL.NET implementation, which is 100 percent COBOL? So, your SML.NET will not be SML, and Mercury.NET will not be Mercury.
Also, what is the business value of those???? The only languages with business value to be fit into .NET would be MS’s own languages, such as VB etc, apart from COBOL, which does not fit in, and dynamic languages, which are not possible to fit into VM based environments, since GC creates huge amount of problems.
In any case, there are many languages which work with JVM too. But JVM is designed to run Java, and Sun promotes only Java. Others are mainly experimental etc.
It is gonna change any way. Sun already started to design Java 3.
Now there’s a thought
“.NET languages are NOT real languages. [clip] So, your SML.NET will not be SML, and Mercury.NET will not be Mercury.”
CroanoN,
Please, let’s be careful. The SML and Mercury backends I mentioned are full-fidelity implementations of the respective languages. The people working in research languages are compiler experts. If they say they’ve re-targeted their languages from native or gcc to .NET I believe them
About the MS automatic update mechanism….
So, do you think that it is not possible to create an automatic update mechanism for Sun’s JVM? Come on…. All you need to do is putting a pinging mechanism that will check some sun site. Adobe Acrobat has it.
But, your words carried the truth in the sense that SUN MUST DO IT. It is crucial for Java’s success.
“Please, let’s be careful. The SML and Mercury backends I mentioned are full-fidelity implementations of the respective languages. The people working in research languages are compiler experts. If they say they’ve re-targeted their languages from native or gcc to .NET I believe them
”
I respect the researchers, but I won’t believe anything before seing with my own eyes. AND, I still think that they do NOT have any business value. Also, I repeat, .NET is not cross platform, and needs at least 5 years to mature and become robust.
I am leaving now, have to prepare a set for tonight, its 3:00 am already here.
Cau.
Thanks for staying up so late.
While you may not respect the business impact of langauge researchers, my point is still valid. .NET is being treated as a backend alternative to gcc and native by many language design teams. This speaks volumes. Java is seen as a language out of control while .NET is seen as a language implementation framework.
When MS came out and said “WinBlah won’t be providing java support,” Sun soiled themselves. Java, or at least it’s “business impact”, seems to hang on the mood of an appellate court.
That times are over for some days now. On modern hardware, Java-Apps are way usable enough for every-day use.
See: LimeWire, NetBeans or JEdit – to just name three great Java-Apps.
I haven’t tried the latter two apps, but Limewire? LOL .. you’ve got to be kidding me! Certainly, this is not the best Java can do?
As someone on download.com said:
The main reason I dislike Limewire is that it uses Java. I *HATE* Java, it’s laggy and slow as hell.
And as for Jedit, who the hell would want a text editor written in Java? That makes about as much sense an an x86 emulator written in Visual Basic
As I said before, there are uses for Java, but the desktop is NOT one of them. Sure, it’s cross-platform, but cross-platform does not automatically qualify it as desktop ready.
Limewire runs very nicely on my machine… as do many other java apps. *shurgs*
While it is true that if people wanted the latest Java they could download it, most are too lazy and some don’t even know waht Java is. Everybody I know doesen’t even know that MS is using a bad version of java, tehy think taht Java is just bad like that. So it was rightfully won.
You are right in that I do not respect researchers in the sense that those languages will have a business value. It is nonsense. How many people know those languages? Even if they have theoretically better suited to business than the currently available languages, how long will it take them to be widespread? Thanks, I am not buying it.
I do not see Java as “language out of control”, so as HP, Oracle, IBM, BEA, JBoss, SAP, Macromedia, Sony, Borland etc. I don’t know if MS does. : )) If you are interested in seing how many companies do not see Java as a “language out of control”, go to JCP (Java Community Process) site and check it out. I think Sun supported Java quite well until this point, except for their JVM implementations. Its nice to see that they fixed it with their latest JVM implementation.
In any case, Java may be bound to Sun, but .NET is not an open framework as well (since it is not fully given to ECMA.), and is bound to MS. MS is evil. I prefer a language to be bound to Sun, rather than MS.
Besides, if I use .NET, I will help MS. I believe that MS is an unethical company. Thus, simple logic states that if I use .NET, I will help an unethical company. I won’t do that. You may.
Besides, I am not a Java zealot or something, but there is no any other good alternative. C, C++ are also cross platform, but Java is more suitable in many cases. Consider OpenOffice MacOSX version will be complete in one year.
Lastly, on “.NET is seen as a language implementation framework.”. I do not see it in that way, and many others do not. Notice, for instance, all the application server implementations that you can find in an IT world, ALL OF THEM, except for MS’s is based on Java. None of them are planning to release .NET versions.
In short, I don’t care about .NET, as many other people.
Cheers.
Cau.
Go and try Eclipse IDE:
http://www.eclipse.org
It is a java application, and the best IDE I’ve ever seen up to date (except for vm and emacs
), and its free as in beer.
It is a universal IDE in the sense that you can use it as an IDE for many languages including C, C++ etc.
Cheers.
Deniz.
As Linux doesn’t have to include Sun’s bloatware, Linux is now a better choice than ever before. I hesitate to think how slow a Windows box will go when running a .NET app at the same time as a .SUN app.
If Microsoft had to include something cool/great/useful with Windows, they would be okay with it. As Sun’s JVM is lame on Windows, it will only arouse the ire of Microsoft and Sun’s demise will come sooner than they thought.
– Red Pill
I thought you were going…
“Besides, if I use .NET, I will help MS. I believe that MS is an unethical company.”
Finally you’ve made betrayed your position. Fine. I hope you realize one thing though, your contempt for “researchers” is blinding you. You’re nose ring is in the hands of Sun’s marketing division. If you can’t see that computing is more than the current trade journal buzz… well, good luck.
In the final analysis, I’d suggest you learn something other than java. Don’t build a career on this white elephant…
“Finally you’ve made betrayed your position”.
In what sense I have betrayed my position? I never said I like MS. This is my political idea. It is not related with my technical advantages or usability worries related with .NET.
“You’re nose ring is in the hands of Sun’s marketing division.”
How do you know? I have no connections with Sun on the corporate level. Stop assuming and blaming people that you do not know.
“If you can’t see that computing is more than the current trade journal buzz… well, good luck”
How do you know that I see computing more than the current trade journal buzz? If you mean my position against MS, I see no connection. I stand behind my idea that if MS never existed, IT would be in much further position right now.
“In the final analysis, I’d suggest you learn something other than java. Don’t build a career on this white elephant…”
What do you know about me? How do you know that I do not know something other than Java? I know many things other than Java. I know, for instance .NET till its deepest details. Wanna quiz me about it?
Look, if you read through our discussion, I never blamed you for anything, or assumed you knew something or not. I only revealed my opinions, or technical knowledge. You are pulling our discussion to personal region with your latest sentence. I cannot find any other reason for this apart from your blood pressure getting high since you cannot find a technical answer for my remarks. If there is, plase tell me. Otherwise, please mature up first, then we can argue.
Please, don’t pull me into a flame war. If you’re building your argument from a “political idea” instead of a rational assessment of the merits of this legal case we’re finished talking. I have no intention of having a fist-fight with you so I think it best that we stop our discourse.
Ok, its alright for me.
Cau.
Cheers
And I’ll be looking for your views in other threads in the future
This decision is the correct one, I think, at least with regard to how the justice system is supposed to work. Justice is supposed to be blind in the sense that a specific legal action is only supposed to be considered in the context of the original situation, with nothing else, before or after, to be allowed into consideration. So, in this case, it was decided that Microsoft did, in fact, abuse its monopoly with regard to Sun/Java. What is going on now with .Net, XML and anything else is not part of it. It is only what Microsoft was doing at that time.
Fortunately it’s a Preliminary Injunction, wonderful.
Hey, if you are in a winbox download Ted Nelson’s CosmicBook (http://xanadu.com/cosmicbook/) and read the MicrosoftLicenses cosmicbook, lots of fun (pity there are only two cosmic books out there).
>>
The Internet Explorer license has a section specifically forbidding reverse engineering. It also has an impassioned denunciation of Java, implying strongly that the Java language is not reliable in any of the ways which its designers wanted it to be.
…
[MICROSOFT INTERNET EXPLORER, VERSION 4.0, hehehe, a bit outdated]
‘7. NOTE ON JAVA SUPPORT. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT may contain support for programs written in Java. Java technology is not fault tolerant and is not designed, manufactured, or intended for use or resale as on-line control equipment in hazardous environments requiring fail-safe performance, such as in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or communication systems, air traffic control, direct life support machines, or weapons systems, in which the failure of Java technology could lead directly to death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental damage.’
>>
Those little rascals were tweaking it crazy, bad, bad, bad. Thanks Judge!
While I like the judges decision, it puts the responsibility squarely on Sun to maintain and update the JVM. How would this be done? Java is a third party application to MS so they could only allow it to be installed when you install windows. I doubt that it would be part of the windows updates b/c MS will claim that they can’t insure that the JVM is safe.
Sun has been using WebStart as a catalyst for upgrading the VM. If a WebStarted app requires a newer VM you will be prompted to download and install it. I do not like how WebStart looks or works so it’s probably not a good update scheme for general users. Sun will need to make some changes to make this decision a good one.
They need to allow JVM sharing so that only one JVM needs to run for all java applications. They need to go further than this and reduce the JVM’s footprint. The also need to vastly improve Swing and the Look and Feels. Right now the look and feels are mediocre. They really need to work with multiple platforms and really get it right. Apple knows too well how difficult this can be.
///////////////
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WOOT WOOT Hooray for Sun.
Down with the Giant!!!
BTW- love all the great comments here.
can someone give me some benchmarks?
how fast is ms java on linux?
how fast is ms java on os 9 (not going away anytime soon)
how fast is ms java on solaris?
*bsd?
os x?
so what is really being said is microsoft’s java is fast…sa long as you are using microsoft operating system on x86 hardware.
so you want to take away my choices?
i think not.
if i have to use java…i’ll support sun.
microsoft has only one goal, to destroy all competition, and to rule the world.
i like their operating systems…but the company is run by people who have billions in their pocket.
the only thing that makes them happy now, is power.
if apple, sun, linux, *bsd, ibm, nintendo, sony, the-playstation, real player, opengl, and countless others JUST DISAPPEARED OF THE FACE OF THE PLANET..
they still wouldn’t be satisfied. then microsoft would start making automobiles to put GM, FORD, Chrysler out of business.
xp is really decent in some ways…the company that makes xp sucks.
You can get the source and contribute and modify it and distribute it. Just because it isn’t the GPL doesn’t mean it isn’t free.
“Got Java?”
I am a java developer quite happy to develope web applications. But on my windows pc why would I use Java? Just because its a better technology? No way. I would use some thing thats useful and does not get in my way in terms of performance. If java applications provide that well and good. As an user I dont care which technology my word processor or browser is written on. I want it to get the job done, that it.
if java is so good, I would be dying to get my
hand on it, no matter M$ offer it or not.
The fact is Sun’s java VM is soooo slow that
it can’t even re-paint the java icq client completely
while M$’s JVM has no problem.
Why would I let a loser company’s stupid software
change my PC with recent technology to an equivlent
of a 286 with a GUI uglier than win3.0 ??? Just so that
the company that’s famous for producing bloated
and slow software can have a chance not othterwise possible ?
The fact is Word 2002 can start up with a 4MB memory
footprint, while StarOffice needs 37MB; M$ JVM can
run MindTerm (java ssh client) using 8 MB while
Sun’s needs 20 MB.
Why the majority of the PC users have to sacrifice
so that the 6% minority can enjoy similar features
not available on non-windows platform ? If you
prefer politically correct, I respect your
courage and your right of choice, but I wouldn’t
expect you cry foul after spent 20+ hours and
couldn’t get a nice looking Anti-Alias font
show up on your screen 😎
How about bundling StarOffice with every copy of
windows sold ?????
dream along! What PC are you using? even my graphics-card got 128MB. In fact I don’t really care anymore how many mem an app takes as long it is not 500MB. But 37MB – who cares? The times has changed. nowadays you need min. 256MB to run any modern GUI-OS smoothly (Linux, WinXP, OS X). What’s the benefit if the wordprocessor can run in 4MB when the necessary OS needs 256MB? Memory sizes have changed over the years. Wake up! Or get rid of your Pentium 133 😉
Ralf.
on XP with 64 MB of memory while StarOffice needs
40 plus seconds with 256 MB memory.
If you believe XP needs 256 MB to run, then your
P4 3G/Athlon XP 2800+ probably isn’t much faster
than a Pentium 133 anyway.
Your graphic card’s 128MB of DDR wouldn’t do a thing
to speed up StarOffice or a major java app – as those
are for piling up screen with triangles.
My desktop XP machine got 512MB, however with two IE
windows, one X server, one file browser and one P2P
client running, the memory foot print is only 132 MB,
32 MB of them used by a RAMDISK for web page caching.
If I own a computer shop, I would surely like your
attitude 😎
StarOffice office is not a Java application if you think that it is. It is an objective c application as far as I know.
I have 512MB Windows 2000 computer that I use sometimes at work, and I can run many Java applications without a problem.
You can uninstall Sun’s JVM and install MS jvm back if you want to have uncompatible Java.
“Why the majority of the PC users have to sacrifice
so that the 6% minority can enjoy similar features
not available on non-windows platform ?”
First of all, they don’t have to. Second, because 6 percent is important from business point of view, and I am planning to have my own company next year, and will only use Java, since I will have 6 percent more possible clients, and Java works.
Also, there are compilers which do compile Java sources to NATIVE OS executables. They are able to do this even for Swing and SWT (Alternative GUI framework which utilizes native widgets, developed by Object Source, bought and supported by IBM, part of the Eclipse IDE. It is MUCH faster than Swing, but less compatible.). For instance open source GCJ ( http://gcc.gnu.org/java/ ), or Excelsior Jet ( http://www.excelsior-usa.com/jet.html ) for Windows. The list is quite long, if you are interested, search “java native compiler” using Google.
Excelsior Jet is incredibly good, there are Windows executables created with it for demo on their site, please try them to see how good it is.
I don’t believe your words! The mem size you describe is not posible! With that apps open you cannot get 132MB (real + virtual!!!) memory usage on your windows system.
I know that my 128MB graphics card dosn’t really speed up non 3D apps – it was meant as a metaphor for the change of the PC mem sizes.
By the way – StarOffice is NOT A JAVA APP! Allways people confuse this.
If you are serious with you mem-statment above, please send me a screenshot of your taskmanager process- and memory-view.
Otherwise I believe you’re a humbugger or you don’t have many computing knowledge at all.
Ralf.
I just want to note that this 6% is projected to all Java. This is basically not true. 6% is the percentage of potential clients that you will LOOSE over the whole client market, if you choose non-cross-platform compatible implemetation for your CLIENT-SIDE product. And it is an increasing percentage, since variety started to reach to client side finally although MS’s bullying. Thanks to Mac OSX, and Linux. There are even firms selling Linux computers now! Java 1.4.1 is near for release on MacOSX for instance:
I am aware that this posting is related with client side. But please not that if you talk about server side applications, the percentage that you will loose is MUCH MORE higher, since Windows on the server side is not that strong luckily. ; )
I just started Word 2002 up to test your findings.
Loads in less than a second.
Memory footprint 22564K + 8976K(Paged)
Hmmm, not quite 4MB is it!
Also, my memory commit charge is 275M, with two IE windows open and outlook 2002 open, this is a Windows XP system.
What is it with you people, don’t be biased either way, use whatever you want. They are just companies, they don’t particulary affect your lives personally, so don’t take it personally. Is everybody a zealot on here?
Incidentally, I quite like java, but for server side use, not particulary impressed with client side AWT or Swing apps, whether its fast or not, it *FEELS* sluggish. .NET looks like its going to be a winner from what I have seen!
you know, as far as competition is concern,
the court, with linux OEM/palm-be’s as plaintiffs, should
require m$ to install an OS-boot loader that will allow pc oem’s to preload their pc’s with alternative os’s like linux or palm/be os or even os/2.
windows current boot-loader does not accept non-windows os’s, which is clearly anti-competitive.
we should have a free market for os’s, and a bootloader that accepts alternative oses along with windows in a first step for open competition
Actually, if you have a good computer and 512MB mem, it is not sluggish at all. Since computers are getting faster and faster, it will not be a problem after 6 months I think.
Note that, .NET on Windows, will probably always be faster than Java, since MS has a change to add native OS bindings. Since, they have the Windows code.
But, as I said, speed of GUI won’t be a problem for many client side programs, since they are fast enough already, and VM based languages are not applicable to extremely high speed requiring applications anyway.
Depends what you call a good computer.
I call a good computer, a P-II 400/64MB/4GB. After all this is probably the most common spec in existence.
Java will not run particulary spritely on that spec.
In fact my own machine I use for own development is a 700 Duron and I see no reason why I should need to upgrade it to run any software (with the notable exception of games)
You have to remember, its only geeks that are running fast machines, most people buy a PC, use it for 5 years and then (maybe) buy another one. And to be honest, why shouldn’t it be like that? I expect to get 5 years out of a washing machine, 10 years out of a TV/Fridge/Car…as OS are refined they should be able to run on slower machines, not the other way around. Featuritis is a terrible thing, when all people wan’t to do at the end of the day is just drive thier computer round the block (so to speak).
So, in essence what I am saying is this. Java on client is *SLOW*, and it’s simply not acceptable. If it takes Microsoft to write a replacement, so be it. Remember use the best tool for the job, irrespective of who manafactured it.
Anyway, I am going to go buy my girlfriends christmas present before she kills me
>>
How about bundling StarOffice with every copy of windows sold ?????
>>
Let me tweak your question:
How about bundling Microsoft Windows with every PC sold ?????
Guess who does that. OEMs had to pay Microsoft for Windows for each computer they shipped, whether Windows was installed on the system or not. Or be punished with higher prices or worse: no license at all. That is why Microsoft is a ***convicted predatory monopolist***.
How about more bundling?, Paragraph 124 of Judge Jackson’s findings:
124. On August 9, 1995, a senior executive at the IBM PC Company went to Redmond to meet with Joachim Kempin, the Microsoft executive in charge of the firm’s sales to OEMs. At the meeting, Kempin offered to accept a single, lump-sum payment from IBM that would close all outstanding audits. The amount of this payment would be reduced if IBM offered a concession that Kempin could take back to Gates. As one possibility, Kempin suggested that IBM agree to not bundle SmartSuite with its PCs for a period of six months to one year. He explained that the prospect of IBM bundling SmartSuite with its PCs threatened the profit margins that Microsoft derived from Office and constituted a core issue in the relationship between the two companies.
Office is now Microsoft’s most profitable product, even more profitable than its operating systems. So bundling a choice of suites including StarOffice with every copy of Microsoft Windows sold would be swell if you ask me. It would certainly make a great remedy to punish and deter Microsoft’s ill gotten gains.
“Java will not run particulary spritely on that spec.”
Huh? It runs FINE on my 400, is there something wrong with yours? As for only geeks running fast computers, IMHO only wanna-be geeks or gamer-geeks are running the latest tech. I’m not a JAVA fan but it’s not “slow”.
“Java will not run particulary spritely on that spec.”
You are right, Java will not run very well, but consider that .NET runtime is 20MBs. .NET will SUCK on that computer.
“So, in essence what I am saying is this. Java on client is *SLOW*, and it’s simply not acceptable.”
So, in essense what I am saying is this. This is simply not true, especially for high-end computers.
Good luck with hunting presents! Be brave! Be brave! =)
I don’t agree with this because it favors Sun over other JVM makers and Java over other platforms.
Java is not an Open API any more than .NET is. Yes all of Java may be available but Sun controls it, not all of .NET is open but the parts that are reside with a standards body (ECMA).
If the courts are going to force Microsoft to carry Suns JVM (as opposed to stopping carring a broken one, which I favor), why don’t they force Microsoft to carry other competing VMs? What makes Java so special that Microsoft must be forced to carry it?
Should Microsoft be forced to ship StarOffice or OpenOffice with Microsoft Office? Opera/Netscape/Mozilla with Internet Explorer?
For me, whether you’re a Microsoft or *nix Zealot, the logic of this ruling just doesn’t seem right to me. The way I read it is this “You must include another proprietary product with your product because the version you have is not good”, seems kind of flawed.
Next they’ll be asking Apple to carry the Sun JVM, oh, hang on, there isn’t one. :-
Daniel
This is a quite valid judgement. I think if any other companies producing JVM objects to the court’s decision, it should be considered.
BUT, in all the cases, MS should NOT be allowed to put its own archaic JVM into Windows distribution, if there is no other JVM (or all the JVMs, or the ones that their producers want) also put in.
> “Should Microsoft be forced to ship StarOffice or OpenOffice with Microsoft Office?”
No, since they are not forcing it to be bought with their OS.
> “Should Microsoft be forced to ship Opera/Netscape/Mozilla with Internet Explorer?”
Yes, since they are forcing IE with their OS.
> “Next they’ll be asking Apple to carry the Sun JVM, oh, hang on, there isn’t one. :- ”
If there is no JVM made by the Sun for Apple, what is the problem here? I don’t see any connection.
Note that, I can easily forsee what MS will do. The thing that they did with IE. They will make .NET Windows OS’s “CRUTIAL” component, as they did with IE. Horrible company’s horrible tricks. Probably after couple of years, they will also make their 3D ray tracing system to the their OS as a “CRUCIAL” component. Just like they are doing it now with the calamity called “Windows Media Player”.
The best could be forcing to put installation mechanism to all the OSs for all “FREE downloadable” products, in a categorized way, so that the users may choose and download. I am aware of the fact that this is very hard thing to realize in the (or a) real world.
“all of Java may be available but Sun controls it”
This is not true completely, since there is JCP (Java Community Process). All the decisions about the future of the Java are realized by the votes of the participant companies, in which Oracle, IBM, BEA, exist apart from many others. Sun has right to veto though, but they never used it as far as I know. I believe that the Sun is not a really evil company at all. They are quite scientists rather than marketeers. They would probably keep their right if they have to protect Java one day.
Of course it could be much better if Java was open sourced completely, but the product (Java concept, that is Java VM spec + Java lang spec) at hand is not suitable for it, because of its nature. Remember for instance, what MS tried to do even when it was protected by Sun. The meaning of Java from the IT point of view, that is WORA, would vanish, since there would be more than one Java branches incompatible with each other. So, a central authority is needed in this case. Its nice that that central authority is Sun, since I think Sun really did a very good job in maturing, and protecting Java in the last 8 years. (I am not talking about their implementations.)
http://www.mdd.uscourts.gov/Opinions152/Opinions/S unPI1202.pdf says on page 10:
a. Microsoft distributes the most current, unmodified binary
implementation of the Java Runtime Environment for Windows
(currently known as the Java Plug-in for Windows XP) provided by
Sun to Microsoft, and ensures it is installed and enabled as the default
Java Runtime Environment for any and all configurations of such
products;
Does this mean a can’t use an older JVM as default (because of compatibilty problems)
Otherwise some mechanism will reset it to the most current.
If true, does this set a precedence to allow MS to change my configuration (for excample if I uninstalled MSN,IE or something else).
The judge will find himself rejected on the appeal court. This has no merits. Sun is really lucky. It just shows how weak American Justice System is. There is really no justice at all, the justice is based on judge’s own personal believes, biases.
You think that the court can force General Motors to put a Ford engine in their cars.
“You think that the court can force General Motors to put a Ford engine in their cars.”
Although General Motors engine is purposely designed to not to work properly on the roads belong to Ford.
Please use your mind.
Each JVM is written for a specific OS, because you need to access memory, disk, etc…
“The judge will find himself rejected on the appeal court. This has no merits. Sun is really lucky. It just shows
how weak American Justice System is. There is really no justice at all, the justice is based on judge’s own
personal believes, biases. ”
The whole point of a judge is that he exercises his personal judgement
as to the merits of the case. Judges should be appointed on the basis
of their experience and wisdom.
In practice, bad appointments may be made. That is the weakness of the
system. Who selects the judges in the US ?
The whole point of a judge is that he exercises his personal judgement as to the merits of the case.
There is nothing personal about this. The judge’s duty is to give an objective ruling, he can’t be biased. If he is, then he should excuse himself from the court. “Personal judgement” that you refer to can not mean that personal feelings, bias. The judgement itself has to be objective. The judge has to follow the law. He can’t give random orders, but unfortunately that’s the case here. The laws give too much power to judges and unfortunately some judges use them not so wisely.
You try to defend the judge here, probably just because you like his decision, but justice is more important in this case. The judge just destroyed the competitiveness in the market.
There is absolutely no way this will stand on the appeals court. It is totally ridicoulus, unacceptable. The judge reads the press and that’s why he probably sided with Sun. He can not decide which technology I will use. He can not force me to get java with Windows. He can not tell the consumers that they have to use Java so that Microsoft fails. Sun will bankrupt and the judge will be overruled.
> “You try to defend the judge here, probably just because you like his decision, but justice is more important in this case.”
You try to condemn the judge here, probably just because your dislike in his decision, but justice is more important in this case.
“There is really no justice at all, the justice is based on judge’s own personal believes, biases.”
Prove it.
You view is seriously flawed:
“He can not force me to get java with Windows.”
MS is doing it, distributing bad version via force. Not the judge.
“He can not tell the consumers that they have to use Java so that Microsoft fails.”
He probably is not forcing it for MS to fail. Again you are blinded by your thoughts. He is also not saying customer that they have to use Java. He is saying MS to stop forcefully distributing archaic JVM, and put the proper one. This does not mean that customers MUST use the Java.
Please chill out. It will fade away after couple of days.
Deniz.
You can uninstall Sun’s JVM and install MS jvm back if you want to have uncompatible Java.
Actually, I’d rather install neither one, and put Java out of its misery.
I am planning to have my own company next year, and will only use Java, since I will have 6 percent more possible clients, and Java works.
Typical zealot – I will only use xyz. It’s attitudes like this that will cause companies to write programs that consume 256MB+ RAM (I’ve seen it done) when the same program could be written in another language, and run at full speed on a 286 with 2MB RAM. It’s all about the revolution.
6% is the percentage of potential clients that you will LOOSE over the whole client market, if you choose non-cross-platform compatible implemetation for your CLIENT-SIDE product.
But of course, Java is not the only cross-platform solution on the market
> And as for Jedit, who the hell would want a text editor
> written in Java? That makes about as much sense an an x86
> emulator written in Visual Basic
Laugh at me. But I actually use jEdit on a daily basis. I like its features, and use it for programming on Win2k, Linux and Solaris.
Apart from that: I’m using a 1.4.1 JRE on a Duron 1.2GHz with 256MB SDRAM. And the speed of jEdit us only just acceptable.
After over 8 years of active development, I still wouldn’t call Java mature. Not as long as there’s no legitimate way to kill a rogue thread. And still not having memory sharing in 1.4 (although it was a release driver) is pretty disappointing. You do know what happens when you start several Swing apps?
IMO Java is still not ready for the desktop and likely will never be.
> “Actually, I’d rather install neither one, and put Java out of its misery.”
You are free to do that. ; )
“Typical zealot – I will only use xyz. It’s attitudes like this that will cause companies to write programs that consume 256MB+ RAM (I’ve seen it done) when the same program could be written in another language, and run at full speed on a 286 with 2MB RAM. It’s all about the revolution.”
Read the thread fully before talking. I mensioned native compilers compiling Java source to client side. Also, once again, I am running many java programs with complex guis without problems on my win2000 with 512MS mem at work concurrently.
“But of course, Java is not the only cross-platform solution on the market
”
What else we have in VM category with Java’s maturity, support, and quality? Tell me please.
“After over 8 years of active development, I still wouldn’t call Java mature.”
Your opinion. I do, and lots of firms do.
“And still not having memory sharing in 1.4 (although it was a release driver) is pretty disappointing.”
It is planned, not disappointing. They already have it, perfecting it. It will be included in Java 1.5 Tiger, which will be released in couple of months.
“You do know what happens when you start several Swing apps?”
Nothing.
What else we have in VM category with Java’s maturity, support, and quality? Tell me please.
Who says you need something in the VM category? Last I checked, QT worked just fine across *nix, Windows, and Mac. Of course, that’s not and end-all solution, but I don’t think Java is either.
What I’m trying to say is when yous ay ‘I am only going to use xyz’, you are really being confined to one thing and in which case, you might as well stick with Windows .. you probably wouldn’t be worse off. I sense in your case, it’s more about politics than anything else.
http://tty.netfirms.com
Two IE windows, XWin32 X server, Emule 0.23b
Console window, Explorer file browser plus
task manager.
I dont have time to prove I am using 32 MB for
a RAMDRIVE in the picture as I am leaving in
a minute, but will post more shots if there is
enough interest.
My point of StarOffice is that it is so bloated and
so slow – I know it is not a Java app, since at least
I am a programmer with 10 year history, for fun and
for a living.
My experience with windows started with win3.0 on
a 286 with 1 MB, my first windows program was written
on a 386/25 MHz + 8MB under win3.1 and win95. While
I may not be as knowledgeable as it could be on
topics of java, I think at least as a regular computer
user, I know Sun’s software are slow and
memory hungry in nature – after all, Sun is more of
a hardware company selling servers and memory that’s
at least 10 times as expensive as regular PC133s, DDRs.
If I were a programmer AND a guy also selling big
buck memory sticks, why should I care how my programs
fare under tight memory situations ????
“Who says you need something in the VM category?”
I say. I don’t want to spend time in getting rid of memory leaks, and millions of other bugs.
“Last I checked, QT worked just fine across *nix, Windows, and Mac. Of course, that’s not and end-all solution, but I don’t think Java is either.”
I won’t use QT, since Java is much more productive, and suitable for the task I am planning to do.
“‘I am only going to use xyz’, you are really being confined to one thing and in which case, you might as well stick with Windows ..”
I said there is no alternative to Java. Thats why I will use only Java.
“I sense in your case, it’s more about politics than anything else.”
Stop assuming. It is not.
“My experience with windows started with win3.0 on a 286 with 1 MB” *COUGH BULLSHIT*
Windows 3.0 required 2 of ram. 😛 HAHA! (I remember having to buy an Intel Aboveboard in order to use it.)
“Windows 3.0 required 2 of ram. 😛 HAHA! (I remember having to buy an Intel Aboveboard in order to use it.)”
That’s strange because I’m pretty certain I saw windows 3.1 running on a machine with only 1MB of RAM at an elementary school a little over a decade ago.
win3.0 has three modes Real Mode, Protected Mode (286+)
and 386 Enhanced mode.
win3.1 practically killed the first two modes.