So, I’ve been using the Windows 8 Release Preview since it came out, almost exclusively (except for work, since I’m obviously not going to rely on unfinished and untested software for that). I already knew I could get into Metro on my 11.6″ ZenBook, but on my 24″ desktop, things aren’t looking as rosy. Here’s an illustrated guide of the most pressing issues I run into, and five suggestions to address them. Instead of just complaining, let’s get constructive.
.png "undefined")
.png "undefined")
.png "undefined")
.png "undefined")
.png "undefined")
.png "undefined")
.png "undefined")
All these issues can be addressed relatively easily – and in doing so, Metro would become a hell of a lot more useful for people who want to do actual work on their computers. People often point to Microsoft’s collected usage data, saying something like “only 10% of Windows users have more than x number of windows open”. The crazy thing is – 10% of all Windows users is still close to 100 million people.
My list of suggestions is short, easy to implement, and does not, in any way, harm the design ideals behind Metro. In fact, I would argue these can be implemented even before Windows 8 goes RTM.
- Instead of just an 80/20 split, allow the window manager to support several splits; or, better yet, do not define any arbitrary split presets at all and allow users to slide the divider to wherever they want. It may be prudent to only enable this for users with larger displays.
- Give classic applications a presence in the Metro application switcher. This makes using them – inevitable due to a severe lack of Metro applications – a lot less cumbersome.
- Allow users to snap individual classic applications in the split view, instead of the entire classic desktop as a whole. Again – this makes using them far less cumbersome.
- The Internet Explorer tab bar needs some love – at least gives us an option to make it persistent so we don’t have to right-click in an empty area or reach for the keyboard. I would greatly prefer an option to make it smaller, too; if you hit the two rows it moves from ridiculous to batshit insane.
- To further increase the usefulness of Internet Explorer – turn browser tabs into full-fledged Metro citizens, so they can be added to the application switcher. This would also make it possible to snap them.
That’s it. Nothing earth-shattering; just some minor suggestions to make Metro better suited for desktop use. It doesn’t address all the problems I’m seeing, but certainly the most pressing.
LOL. That wasted space in the first 2 pics is not the fault of metro…but of the OSnews website itself not being coded to take advantage of the full width.
Yes, because reading 1920pix width is not at all entirely uncomfortable.
Edited 2012-06-03 22:22 UTC
You pointed out the wasted space in the white areas that are only white because OSNews was coded to leave them white. That wasted space, has nothing to do with Metro.
Of course it’s Metro’s fault. Virtually no website uses that much width because it makes no sense to do so – a simple limitation of the human brain in that reading lines that are too long causes us to lose focus, making reading that much harder. This is basic psychology.
That’s why sites tend to not flow beyond a certain width.
That is only because you have a browser in the left pane. That could be any application, many of which make excellent use of the full width.
Yes, I agree, that 80/20 is limiting and additional customizable splits would be beneficial, but that does not change the fact that your graphics with the “wasted space” comments are incorrectly attributing that to Metro. Because, even with other splits, many of them would still have “wasted space” because the website was explicitly coded as such.
In any case, their usage data obviously indicates that most people focus on their main task to the exclusion of other windows. And that aligns with the real world usage patterns I have seen as well.
This is decidedly untrue. Most websites would lose ALL their whitespace when presented in, say, a 50/50 split.
It’s a moot point you’re making, though – it’s still Metro’s fault for not being designed for the real web, but instead, for some non-existing fairytale web.
I said “many of them” would still have wasted whitespace. 70/30 would certainly, and even 60/40 would have some. So my point stands.
Secondly, Metro wasn’t designed with the sole purpose of having a browser, and only a browser, in the left pane. And your comments about having fixed width websites being due to readability is not exactly true; there are many apps whose sole purpose is for presenting readable information that can and do take advantage of that width.
But while http://www.osnews.com/img/26032/Screenshot%20(1).png might in itself seem wasteful, it also makes things more readable, as you say – if you just want to display one webpage (what people generally seem to do, no 50/50 splits or such), there’s no other sensible way to do it… it would be like that in any UI.
(the screenshots that follow, where you want to do something additional, are a separate issue)
OSNews has 2 columns – so yeah, like most web pages it doesn’t feel right when stretched to entirety of large monitor.
Large-format paper publications with width and text size proportions of that screenshot would probably have ~4 columns, and for good reason …fix OSNews, to fill that space in such scenario ;P (yes, easier said than done – an unfortunate combination of widescreens becoming the standard plus the “legacy” of HTML & how we always did pages, I guess; any automatic determination of column numbers based on text and display size would also break a bit the concept of scrolling…)
Last I heard, it was something like ~1.2 billion PCs and ~2 billion users – so more like close to 200 million people, even.
PS. Why don’t I have that “top rated comments” field?
Edited 2012-06-03 22:58 UTC
Good post Zima. That was essentially the point I was trying to make, not as eloquently as you
.
Thom’s using an “OSNews members” login, with no ads and some extra goodies. We haven’t been promoting it very heavily lately, but with a redesign we have in the works we’ll be making some changes.
Open osnews in windows 7 and maximize the browser on the same resolution monitor. Do you not get the same thing? I hate metro with a passion but this is not a metro issue. As long as the browser can resize to take the full width it has always been up to the site designer to take advantage of that width.
It just seems weird to try to make the “IT SHOULD JUST KNOW!” Argument and then try to apply it only to metro.
Edited 2012-06-04 13:16 UTC
You’ve completely missed the point that Thom was making.
Of course it would look the same in Win7 if you maximised the browser, but the key word in that last sentence is if.
That is to say you have a choice about whether or not you maximise. You have no choice in Metro, because it is the first version of Windows not to include … Windows.
Everything is always maximised, all the time. Not MS’s greatest idea.
Thom’s right here. I have a tri-monitor setup: a 27″ iMac with two 20″ monitors attached. You wouldn’t want a site to fill screens that size: they become difficult to read. For maximum readability, lines of text should have a certain length and have certain spacing. Text running all the way across a 27″ monitor wouldn’t work.*
As a result, I never have windows maximised. I tile them so I can see multiple things at once. This approach is useful for developers, designers and content creators. We’re going to have problems with Metro’s window management. Well, most will: I won’t since I use OS X. Having two sites in an 80/20 split makes little sense for tiling web pages. Having two apps (web browser and text editor, or two web browsers) in a 50/50 split makes a lot of sense.
* of course, you can have multiple columns or blocks taking up the full 1920×1080 (or higher), dynamically moved and positioned using responsive layouts, but that brings its own set of challenges.
Edited 2012-06-03 22:44 UTC
Websites are not fixed width solely because wide screens detract from readability, but because they need to reach as wide an audience as possible; therefore, they need to be readable on as many screens and resolutions as possible.
In any case, this has nothing to do with Metro…which was my original point. Put almost any other app (besides a browser) in the left pane, and the content will be used to its fullest.
And yes, as a software engineer, I understand the need for multiple windows and customization options. But in Windows 8, the desktop still exists, so….
Yes, but it is depreciated. Unnecessary hoops to use it today and gone tomorrow if MS has it’s way..
Edited 2012-06-03 23:08 UTC
Fixedâ€width layouts are part of the problem, not the solution. Reading a page that uses a single 800px column on a 22″ screen is a pain: I don’t want to squint and I don’t want to put my face right against the monitor, so I bump up the text size… and get to read three words in a line. Reading a page with a fixed width of 1,280px on a 4.3″ screen with a horizontal resolution of 960px is equally annoying, for obvious reasons.
There is no one size fits all solution. Different devices need different layouts, and you can achieve a lot of that on the web using media queries (see http://css-tricks.com/css-media-queries/ for more on that subject) in combination with relative measures and minimum/maximum widths (for example, size your content using ems and set a max-width of 43em on paragraphs).
Actually, it is. One of the basic typesetting rules says not to exceed (on average) 12 words per line or several of inches of column width at normal reading distance.
So, no, stretching the column width to the screen size is not a solution. An automatic multi-column layout is, but html/css does not support it out of the box.
Please read the last line of my comment again. This is why you set a maximum width in terms of ems. I’m also not sure what you’re referring to when you say ‘it is’.
Indeed. Nor is keeping it at a fixed width, as I said; that’s optimal for a small subset of users and annoying for everyone else. What is a solution is allowing your column to expand in proportion and setting a sensible maximum width.
Actually, it does, and browser support is almost 100% at this point (though it does require including the prefixed versions of the properties):
http://caniuse.com/#feat=multicolumn (columns)
http://caniuse.com/#feat=css-mediaqueries (media queries so you can adjust the number of columns based on the width of the page)
I agree wholeheartedly, and I feel that Aero Snap was one of the best additions to Windows since the shift to NTFS. A simple flick to the left with one window and flick to the right with another gives you a perfect 50/50 split. For those of us with 16:9 monitors, it means two complete web pages can be seen side by side. For web developers doing a compatibility check visually between browser versions, this is ideal. I’ve used it myself at the part time job with Notepad++ full of HTML or CSS on the left, and the web browser on the right. Make a change on the left, hit Ctrl+S, hit F5 on the right and there’s no need for cumbersome app switching. It’s a workflow-centric wet dream.
I’m also happy to see that some *nix desktop environments have begun to copy Aero Snap and other similar features. Why Microsoft wanted to take a huge leap backwards with fullscreen-only browsing in Metro is beyond comprehension.
I know…. IE has had some kind of full screen kiosk mode since at least win98. I found it to be useless and never used it.
Aero Snap still works on the desktop side. They just make multi-pane viewing side-by-side impossible for users in Metro, but maybe some one will make a Metro app that lets you see 1+x panes at a time.
Well, that was my point, that Snap is not applicable to the Metro interface. Basically, one would have to constantly switch between fullscreen Metro and the legacy desktop just to get certain tasks done, which degrades the workflow.
I wish Microsoft would either give us a fixed Metro that allows for tiling apps, or give us a Metro-free “legacy-only” desktop option. Sadly they have already affirmed that neither will happen.
I really, truly hope that Microsoft will only release Windows 8 for touchscreen devices (whether x86/64 or ARM based) and keep shipping Windows 7 on traditional desktops and laptops for a few years. That seems like the only sensible course of action to me. I’m afraid that ship has sailed though.
Even multiple columns isn’t a good solution. It works in print because it is paginated and you can easily view the whole column. (Even newspapers tend to limit the length of columns.) Multiple columns on a web page would force the reader to scroll down then up then down again.
Unless we’d replace scrolling with flipping…
We already have “readability” functions or extensions in browsers; and one of the ideas behind HTML was that the client has some control over presentation – it might as well make columns.
That could even fit new UI models (tablets, and so on …including Metro)
Edited 2012-06-04 02:41 UTC
Sorry Tom, but this is the same issue on my 21′ Monitor running Windows 7/Linux.
Should we blame them as well for the amount of white space?
You are forced to fullscreen in Windows 7?
You can use a ‘legacy’ Desktop environment and run windowed applications there, but you need to switch to Metro and/or use parts of the Metro interface to start new applications, configure OS settings and many other things that are transparent even on clumsy Windows 7 — when you do this on Windows 8 your ‘Desktop’ goes away and you’re in a single task Metro environment. And yes in Metro you can only use one application, or OS component at at time and it’s full-screen…
You’re in Metro for the two seconds it takes you to type the name of the application you want, and hit enter.
The horror.
Metro doesn’t work that way. You’re really not getting it. Metro is not just an application launcher – it’s the desktop shell, the window manager, the UI. Everything begins and ends with Metro in Windows 8. You can’t circumvent it, and as has been made abundantly clear by loads of people all over the web, Metro, as it currently stands, is not well-suited for serious workflows. You may not care about that, but we do.
If the full screen aspect of it annoys you, you can largely avoid it.
I was commenting on the ridiculousness of complaining about being immersed in the Start Screen for the two seconds it takes you to type out the Application name you’d like to launch, and press enter.
Staying in Desktop Mode for a majority of the time means you hardly encounter the “annoying” aspects of Metro if you don’t want to.
Arguing semantics aside, that is undeniably true.
Nelson, your an imbecile; even if it was just two seconds to configure a setting, that’s more then enough to bring many production environments to a screeching halt or worse, and is an impossible situation for deployments that require real time monitoring and control. A task switching interface is no more ‘multi-tasking’ for the User than the DOS real mode task-switchers were for multi-tasking for applications…
It must be terrible, going around thinking you’re knowledgeable. You poor thing.
No, but lots of people prefer to do so. And by “lots”, I mean, “most” (by far).
But I don’t necessarily agree with others here that website designers should go out of their way to re-flow the content of their site to fill up the entire window, whatever size the window may be at a given moment. Users are generally just fine seeing large white space to the left and right of the content.
That said, I’d like to have a 50/50 snap option in Metro (to go along wiht the current big/small option). I think the reason for providing only the big/small snap option is that Metro apps require more forethought in control layout, and it’s easier for developers not to have to worry about arbitrary window sizes or even a half-width window size. With the current behavior, developers can target full-screen, 3/4ths, and 1/4th (not sure about the exact fractions involved in “snap” scenario), with the first two options having the same control layout, and the final one being special-cased. A 50/50 snap option might not be able to handle the full-screen control layout (not as well as the 3/4ths snap option), so that might require yet another special case.
This isn’t as much an issue in Windows 7, sicne desktop apps don’t require as much planning in control layout (though lots of apps suffer for lack of such planning anyway).
Sorry guys, but that sounds stupid. Who in their right mind reads a web page full screen on 1920×1200 (I’m also on this res for 90% of my day).
I easily understand the suggestions at the end of the article/post, but my suggestion would simply be to make Metro _entirely_ optional on a non-tablet, non-touch computer. Other usability issues I could mostly solve by using Start8, which is still not a real solution, but at least makes using Win8 a bit more bearable.
What is the difference if it’s full screen or not, when you focus on a webpage? It’s a “wasted” space either way (and actually, when the browser window width fits to such “narrow” content it might introduce unnecessary clutter outside of it – most of the time I prefer to have blank space there, instead of icons or another app that’s in the background)
Edited 2012-06-04 07:59 UTC
It’s not. I can put my icons there, so I can quickly open them. I can put an IM window there, IRC, mail, a copy dialog, Torrent, whatever I want. This way, I can quickly switch between tasks without having to jump through hoops. It makes it much easier to see what I’m doing, and keep track of everything that’s running. And I haven’t even mentioned yet that without the ability to display multiple windows side-by-side, I can’t actually do my job and make money. THAT is how backwards Metro currently really is.
That space certainly isn’t wasted.
The ones you gave in 90% of circumstances … indicate via the task bar when they are done (such as copying files actually show the status in the task bar item), IM flashes, IRC chimes you and any torrent application goes and shows a system tray message.
If your use case actually consisted of tiling to sources of information for comparison that is a valid example …
Edited 2012-06-04 08:29 UTC
I like to know what’s going on. When something will be done – not just when it’s done, but how long it’s going to take.
Yes because copy dialogs and torrents download speeds always run at a constant transfer rate, people always response in a timely fashion via instant message … 😐
Edited 2012-06-04 09:03 UTC
Sigh.
It’s not about making them go quicker – it’s about keeping tabs on what’s going on on my computer, whether a task is nearing completion, only halfway, or is going to take at least another ten minutes, or twenty minutes.
I like to know what the hell’s going on without having to use finnicky mouse gestures and frantic clicking. I don’t see why you should ridicule that.
Edited 2012-06-04 09:05 UTC
I was taking the piss, I/O stuff like this takes as long as it takes, It tells straight away if it failed or completed. Anything other behaviour tbh is a bit OCD.
All you are doing is the equivalent of looking up the road to see if the Bus is approaching, it doesn’t change when or whether the bus gets to your stop.
Because the things you highlighted are things that are typically done in the background without user intervention and tell you once they have done.
Edited 2012-06-04 09:19 UTC
Uhm, it’s hard to keep track of ongoing tasks without, you know, intervention.
Whoosh … you don’t need to keep track of them do you?
If it needs your intervention … IT WILL TELL YOU.
What part of “I want to keep tabs on their progress” don’t you understand? You may not want to, BUT I DO. I want to know how long tasks are – roughly – going to take, so I know how to divide up my time. This really isn’t rocket science.
You may only care about when a task is done and jump around tasks ad-hoc, but I like planning.
It is a pointless exercise because depending on the number of files and how many there are (for a copy task), the time estimate is usually very inaccurate.
You “monitoring” this is just an exercise in frustrating yourself, and really if you time planning is that dependant on such tasks you aren’t really doing it very well.
Sounds like your planning is more ad-hoc than mine.
Anyway, every task you mentioned tells you how much and how long is left if you hover over the icon. So I don’t know why you would need a full Window up.
Edited 2012-06-04 09:49 UTC
Thom’s tasks might not be, say, optimal, but you are going in a “your are doing it wrong” just to not address the fact that you just can’t see several different windows at once. Ie, the old “You Don’t Need That” argument.
Copy dialogs and torrent downloads might do with a notification, but you won’t get such a thing when a script is waiting for user input in a remote SSH connection.
Eg. I often need to keep an eye on the install process of OM agents on remote machines while also keeping the JavaGUI visible just in case I get some relevant alert.
And all of that is just background stuff I need to keep visible while I’m working on something else until the agents are installed.
The limited window management options of Metro make all that more difficult. Why would I want to use that?
It is all very much specialized use cases.
Which I would expect to be able to achieve with what’s supposed to be a general purpose OS.
In general, you want a long running task to notify you that it needs instructions.
So Metro is fundamentally broken
Just because Thom has some OCD complex as why he has to constantly check the status of something.
You can’t check the putty Window after having a sensible guess on how long a particular command is going to take.
And you have a Java GUI that they haven’t bothered implementing a system notification.
All these situation are still covered by the classic desktop, which isn’t going away.
Actually, it’s really not that specialized to desire more than one program visible at the same time. The use case is pretty general actually and alt-tab is not the better solution to working with multiple programs at once.
The machine I’m on right now, this browser in foreground with Outlook behind it. I can see email counts coming in and what folders they are filtered into not just *that* I have a new email because the task bar icon appeared and I heard a ding sound.
This machine also frequently shows multiple explorer windows in addition to other programs. I should alt-tab from explorer window to another program where I’m transcribing a path or filename? I should select the address bar and copy the path or f2 the file and copy the name with slow mouse movements instead of simply typing multiple lines of information maybe?
The notebook beside me; currently showing a full screen mail app one one of it’s desktops because mail and browsers stacked on top of each other and alt-tab makes sense. desktop 2 is showing four terminal windows because I’m frequently working on more than one SSH’d machine at a time or task at a time. You think maybe I should “reasonably guess” what htop is displaying in a window hidden by what’s in the forground? obviously you feel it’s OCD to be able to, you know.. see the Conky output of monitored system metrics? Pure insanity that I like to have Task Manager in view at times while working with another program?
Should I take a walk around the office and see what “normal users” are working on? Hey, look at that.. more than one Excel workbook in view at the same time.. wow.. pretty specialized use case. Oh hey, someone building a presentation wanting source content in view while they prepare the slides; another special use case I guess.
“just rely on the popup notices”.. he says.. cause if it works for him there must be something wrong with people who do things differently.
(edited to remove a poor choice of ending)
Edited 2012-06-04 16:44 UTC
It not about more than one program visible.
I normally have a browser open, inspector tool, Visual Studio with Tabbed Files open.
What Thom was talking about was things that notified him when he finished or needed intervention … e.g. IM.
If his criticism was that he couldn’t compared the PDF he was reading to what he was writing I would have agreed.
But background tasks … OH Please and the reasons were entirely of his making.
The other chap, with the remote machines etc did have a point however those sort of tasks belong on the classic desktop … which isn’t going away.
Wait, wait, wait. My reasons for using my computer the way I do were of my own making? NO SHIT. That applies to everyone.
I have actually mentioned that quite often. My entire job depends on this ability, hence why Metro, in its current form, would remove my ability to my job – and that of countless others.
Not in Windows 8, no, but the writing is on the wall, and believing otherwise is incredibly naive. Microsoft already made it as cumbersome as they can possibly get away with to use classic applications, so expect the next release to make it an optional install.
Edited 2012-06-04 17:07 UTC
They are made up problems. File Transfers and buffers are like tranditional mailboxes, you check them once you have time to, you don’t constantly monitor it … it is stupid way to spend one’s time. Though arguing any point on here could be also be in that category … so I am just as guilty.
Not in the comments that I looked at thus, but fair enough. But still this doesn’t invalid my point about the background tasks and IM.
BTW my friend said this about it
And that chap is a bit of a slackware fan.
Yes Windows + D is terrible.
It may transform and evolve, but it isn’t going suddenly be gone.
Anyway that is a matter of opinion that I don’t agree with because they have made classic desktop improvements for Windows 8 already but whatever, You are always right.
Read the article, and it’ll tell you exactly why Windows+D is useless, since it takes you to *the desktop*, not the *applications/window* that you actually want. In other words, additional steps to do basic things.
Hence the suggestions of integrating classic applications into the Metro switcher – but Microsoft won’t do that because the desktop is deprecated and won’t be around for much longer.
You just move the mouse to the start square and it brings them up … FFS.
FirstWorldProblems.
Edited 2012-06-04 17:31 UTC
Jesus Christ, are you intentionally being thick or what? You CANNOT switch straight to a classic application/window from Metro – you have to FIRST bring up the desktop, and THEN go to the classic taskbar. It’s an additional step that requires lots of mousing/clicking around, and even in just a few days, it’s annoying the fcuk out of me, because it can be addressed so easily, but Microsoft specifically chose not to just to push us towards Metro.
That’s consumer-hostile behaviour.
Start, Start + D.
Didn’t play much Capcom Vs SNK did you?
Seriously, if it hurts your productivity that much over that, just use something else.
Edited 2012-06-04 17:37 UTC
/me throws his hands in the air
because pressing Start twice is such a problem … if your reactions are that slow, maybe you should enable sticky keys.
If you don’t like it that much, just don’t use it. Every nerd and his mother has professed how much they don’t like Metro.
If you don’t think they are going to fix it, all you are doing is preaching to the crowd and nothing more.
I already pointed out why in regular situations your arguments are Bullshit but I have already admitted if you have particular use cases it maybe a problem.
Microsoft aren’t tailoring the operating system just for you … you aren’t that special … precious.
Edited 2012-06-04 17:44 UTC
I’m sorry but I really have to butt in; if you are planning to work with the files you are transferring or if you need to do something after the transfer is complete then it is plenty effing obvious why it makes sense to keep an eye of the transfer.
If you never have to transfer files before you can work on them, great, be happy about it, but the rest of us live in the real world. In the real world there are plenty of tasks that must be completed before the next step can be started and in such cases one can plan a little if there is any kind of indication of how long the process will take.
…unless you’re waiting for the process to complete.
Yes because you should be always be able to see HTOP … I don’t ever care how much ram I am using unless my keyboard starts lagging … it is OCD.
Why do you care how much you CPU is working? As long as you aren’t maxing out … OCD again.
FUCK OFF with “I am monitoring my system resources bullshit”. It is a bit of a joke tbh … We have cheap processors and GPUs that can render graphics using the unreal engine in fucking FLASH … and you are worried about your HTOP … PLEASE
It was like the guy who logged onto our Windows 2003 Webserver and was shocked that it was using 73% CPU time for the w3wp.exe process (basically IIS), I was like … “Website is still working fine? What is the problem”.
You do realise that two Excel workbooks don’t actually have a different Window they exist in. They exist in the Excel … sounds like a perfect candidate for metro.
System has mechanisms in place to notify the user when intervention is needed in an action, whether that is a pro up or something else, I rather the computer/program did that for me and saved the processor cycles for making sure I don’t use max the thread pool in IIS ;-).
They do if you tell Excel to do so, as any sane Excel user does.
Depends how people have been trained to use Excel. The product managers upstairs use it very differently than I do.
I never needed to use it like that so I have never bothered to find out.
Sure, I could check every terminal and RDP session every now and then when I guess they might have finished, but then I could also just have the windows visible so I don’t have to bother doing that. To put it another way: if I have scripts running on terminals on the background, that should be because that’s what I want, not because there’s no other way to do it.
The Java GUI has notifications implemented, which (I guess) comes handy for operators but I use the GUI to run tests on the platform, so being able to see if, what and when alerts pop up along with how they correlate with each other without having to bring the app to the front each time is a lot more useful, specially because most times I’m manually forcing the alerts elsewhere and I would have to go constantly switching windows around.
Classic desktop is still present in Windows 8, but it’s being deprecated and might disappear or be severely crippled in Windows 9. Anyway, I don’t see any reason to go with an OS that’s heading in a direction that goes straight against what I need to do my work.
It’s not that Metro is broken, it just happens to not be a well suited tool for me. Considering Windows is supposed to be a general purpose OS aimed at a wide range of possible use cases I would have expected the new window management paradigm to be more flexible.
I already had my fair share of issues with classic desktop (it feels rigid enough already) but Metro is just plain unusable.
For me, obviously.
OTOH that might be related to falling into tricks of UI designers with progress bars… which rarely really show very accurate progress, their role is often basically to make users perceive that something is being done; and we feel that something takes less when we keep an eye on the progress bar.
Or: on Plan9 homesite (which seems to be down at the moment, and is not in archive.org…) there’s also a page, with links to some research, explaining why they rely on mouse more than typical Unix did – in short, because the greater speed of CLI is largely an illusion, it takes more attention hence gives an _impression_ that it takes less time, is more efficient – while mouse in fact is.
Now, it’s your business how you do things (and of course I don’t claim anything near that it’s all about such effects as above), to what you are used to – but this whole UI topic really benefits from methodologies which try to separate the thing doing the interaction (brain) from the thing evaluating the interaction (usually, the very same brain… and our brains are very powerful, self-deceit is a trivial trick for them). Kinda like with audio and ABX tests.
PS. Elsewhere in the topic you call for ideas WRT new, upcoming OSNews layout – I have one, and curiously related to that whole “fitting webpage to width” issue: I checked OSNews in 800×600, and… it doesn’t fit!
Edited 2012-06-11 00:18 UTC
I agree with this 100%. Glancing at a visible window is a hell of a lot faster than switching to one that’s hidden. Even just for monitoring tasks it’s very useful to have multiple windows, and it’s even more important when working with different applications.
^that is what I wrote (now adding some slight emphasis here and there), and for a reason; don’t answer to only part like that. Yes, I can have some icons or background apps there, too, at times.
Overall, there’s nothing unusual about focusing on a “core” task at hand, letting the machine follow the rest most of the time – that is the whole idea behind computers: to act as a prosthesis of sorts for our minds, freeing them for something else (OTOH, not doing that might be conducive to falling into information overload)
Exactly, I agree. I prefer seeing other windows (even if just a relevant part of them) than not, or ven notification balloons and such if they exist. E.g. doing a remote linux upgrade and seeing the bottom part of the console window, an IM window on the side, an app window or its console output of a running program that needs a lot of time to run and meanwhile has visual or text output, and so on and so forth.
Obviously I’m not in the content-consuming-only target demographic, and being in a browser window during work is not my main activity. Thinking about it, I’d say the only app types that I use full screen are developer IDEs, everything else I use in windowed mode.
Edited 2012-06-04 09:43 UTC
I guess I’m the odd one out here, seeing as I haven’t so far noticed a single comment about someone doing this, but.. well, I *do* have Firefox maximized at all times.
Well, OS news still has a scroll bar, there is more information to be displayed, yet it doesn’t use the space it does have to display it. I understand that most websites suck at using available screen space, but they should.
For OS News, there is space for two columns of news articles, or even going metro-esque by displaying the full text of an article, along with the story index. There are ways to solve it without resorting to simply stretching the text all the way to 1920px.
The easiest way to fix it is…..just don’t use Windows 8!
Seriously why in the world are you going to all the trouble to run a cell phone OS on the desktop? its obvious that all MSFT cares about with Win 8 is wimpy little screens or it wouldn’t be such a PITB to get it usable on large displays.
So do yourself a favor friend, join me and most of the business world (as well as all my customers) and just say NO! to Win 8. heck with Win 7 supported until 2020 you can skip win 8 AND Win 9 if MSFT doesn’t come to their senses, But I have a feeling this is gonna be an MS Bob level of fail so I doubt we’ll have long to wait until Win 9 goes back to a sensible desktop.
Many people laughed when I said “Vista is gonna flop” and that came true and I’m betting I’m right again, its just not an improvement over Win 7 unless you are running it on a smartphone and even there I don’t think it has a prayer against Android and iOS.
That’s not constructive in any way. You do not fix something just by ignoring it, just as you cannot e.g. fix murder by ignoring it.
Quite a few of the commenters here on OSNews work in IT, and as such they’ll inevitably run into situations where they must be able to get around in Win8 and/or help others do that. That’s already a very good reason for trying to get acquainted with it already.
Another good reason would be e.g. studying it; what works, what doesn’t, how it could be improved and/or what could be imitated elsewhere and what shouldn’t.
Then again, if you don’t like being constructive you probably don’t understand the reasoning anyways.
You’ll be surprised.
I don’t think everything works quite like murders
(but now I wonder whether what you did could become something à la Godwin’s law ;p )
If people will insist on using the older version, if devs (also MS ones, with all their software) will be forced to target primarily that older one, MS should take notice… (wasn’t that what also happened with Vista?)
Thankfully not! I just said it to demonstrate a point, though perhaps using ever-stronger copyright laws as an example would’ve worked better: no matter how much you ignore them they won’t go away, the only way of “fixing” the situation is to actively do something about it. That is a lot like Win8: some lucky can avoid it in their own, personal things, but on the whole it’s coming whether you like it or not. The constructive approach is to, quite obviously, find the rough spots and try to find ways of smoothing them over.
I just skimmed through today’s news on Engadget, and guess what? I saw 8 whole new full lines of computers coming to market, all sporting Windows 8. I’m just saying that ignoring it won’t even be possible.
Uhhh…murder? Seriously? You DO know that MSFT themselves is supporting Win 7 until 2020, yes? I don’t see how you can equate not jumping on MSFT’s “Ohh me too!” Apple loving bandwagon as taking someone’s life.
Oh and believe me I know that, I keep Win 8 in a VM simply because as a small shop owner I’ll have to deal with it too, although I have a feeling it’ll be like Vista and most of my “dealing with it” will be nuking it for customers and putting 7 back on. I swear if they make us call for downgrade rights again I’m gonna charge an extra 20% or hand it to the customer and let THEM deal with it, because i’m soooo tired of hearing 30 minutes of sales pitches before they’ll give me the stupid key!
Finally why do you think I’ll be surprised? Did WinPhone suddenly get more than its last reported 5% of the market? did their appstore become more than a hollow shell of iOS and Google Markets?
The thing MSFT seems to be not capable of understanding is NOBODY uses MSFT windows because they just adore MSFT as a brand, they use it for third party apps period. So its already got one strike against it as it’ll never ever run those millions of X86 programs already written in winRT, strike two is that it has no real selling point against iOS and Android, as Android is cheaper (can’t beat free) and iOS not only has the money (more money made per app by a long shot) but they also have the hipness factor. Strike three is that Win 8 is simply unintuitive and undiscoverable without a LOT of trial and error.
In the end just answer me this TWO questions Werecat, does Windows 8 make you feel more productive or less than Win 7? does your workflow feel smoother now, or more clunky? Because I’ve allowed everyone from kids to little old ladies play with win 8 CP in my shop and i have yet to find anyone that says they feel more productive or that they are better able to get what they want done on Win 8. I don’t know if it’ll parse or not but the following video is pretty much the reaction I’ve seen from my own customers with regards to Win 8, although they tended to get frustrated more than this woman..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxmIsv88xO4&feature=related
Hairyfeet (a longtime Slashdot poster who runs a computer shop) has said the same thing. The users just aren’t liking it. There are plenty of youtube videos that show the same thing.
How much more evidence is needed?
Uhhh…that’s me..hi! My old Bassbeast handle was taken on /. so I was reading LOTR at the time and since i had that lovely feeling where every. single. UID. you choose gives you that stupid “Taken” over and over AND OVER I stuck that in as a goof and voila!
But that’s the nice thing about running a little computer shop, I meet folks from all walks of life, grandmas and grandkids, nerds that are into model airplanes (had a great discussion with one the other day over the Pi) to fellow business owners and so far NONE have liked it, the closest i got to an “endorsement” was this nice old lady who said “Well that’s a nice looking cell phone picture, is that Android? i heard that’s quite nice…what do you mean Windows? Windows what? Why that’s just stupid, why would I want a cell phone on my computer?”
Ya know, I HONESTLY thought the teens would like it, those like my oldest that live on smart phones? but he said the same thing the other teens did “I already HAVE a smart phone, and Windows 7 is easier to work”. If MSFT is courting the young this is the wrong way to go about it, as kids have grown up with the start button desktop and know it like the back of their hands. My oldest didn’t switch to Win 7 until last fall but it didn’t take him 30 minutes to be up to speed,whereas with Win 8 after 20 minutes of random pecking he just got frustrated and walked away. its just not discoverable or intuitive.
Though now we have to wonder how much of the evidence on the web comes from you…
Well its real easy to spot me, not only do I use the same lingo (we southerners are known for our ‘colorful” way of speech) but ever since that stupid UID fiasco I’ve been quoted so many times as “hairyfeet” I don’t even bother using my old UID anywhere but here. So if you see a “Hairyfeet” talking with lots of colorful stories and who throws in ain’t a lot, yeah its me.
But I think a little PC shop is about the most perfect testbed you can have for consumer reaction, because unlike many places our data isn’t really skewed by any one demographic. i have geeks come into my shop that know right down to the TRAS what speed RAM they want, I have grandmas that don’t know the difference between a HDD and a CPU. I have engineers designing complicated as hell Solidworks models for robots, I have kids that only care about WoW and TF2.
So if you want to judge how the average person is gonna take something short of just grabbing random folks at a mall your local PC shop is probably your best indicator, even the big chain stores tend to bring in more of one demographic than another but we get folks from all walks of life and since I have great word of mouth i not only get them but their families, friends, coworkers, which just makes the data even better.
And i can honestly say, as someone who has had the beta of every MSFT OS from Win2K set up in the shop for folks to play with that I have NEVER gotten the kind of backlash I have with win 8, not even with Vista. with Vista folks actually LIKED the GUI a lot, it was UAC and the bugs that turned them off, but with Win 8 I just can’t figure out who the target audience is because NOBODY seems to like it. Like I said I thought the teens and tweeners would go for it since they all love smartphones but they don’t care for it either since they grew up with Windows in school and at home.
Sorry for the length but this whole thing just puzzles me, with every release, even the stumbles like Vista i could see what they were going for but not this time. maybe they should take a cue from the Win95 release and hire a couple of celebs to make an infomercial on how to use it, because i can tell you just plopping someone down in front of a Win 8 machine only leads to frustration.
I bet many operating systems would love to be such a flop like Vista… (it topped in web stats at quarter of online users, is still the 3rd most used OS) And generally, the apparently adored Win7 is essentially VistaSE.
Not every text line have to be 1920 pixels wide.
Have you ever read a news paper?
Even if OS news were coded to take up the full screen…. I don’t want 24″ of it on my desktop. I like my multiple windows just fine. I am never going to fit into this single minded single windowed world. It is like going back to crayons and that really fat pencil you had in kindergarten, after using design markers ballpoint pens.
According to your metrics Linux and MacOS will be picking up 10% of windows users. At least the ones that don’t stick with win7 for eternity.
You do know there is the classic desktop in Windows 8, right?
You mean like the ones that pick up Linux and Mac OS X instead of Vista, when they left XP? Right.
A million times this. Windows Vista is regarded by most as the worst thing Microsoft could have ever done, and even that did nothing for the Linux desktop.
I just know this is going to be the Year of the Linux Desktop. Yawn.
Edited 2012-06-04 18:34 UTC
Ever wonder why newspapers are divided into so many narrow columns? Hell, even magazines for that matter? Think about it…
It’s a royal pain in the ass to read extremely long rows of text. Our brains just aren’t meant to do it. I never have this problem because I never have any windows maximized; they usually take up around half of my screen, mostly vertical space, not horizontal.
UZ64,
“Ever wonder why newspapers are divided into so many narrow columns? Hell, even magazines for that matter? Think about it…”
You beat me to it!
When redshift said “Even if OS news were coded to take up the full screen…. I don’t want 24″ of it on my desktop.” I was thinking the exact same thing.
Widescreen pages of non-wrapping text are extremely difficult to follow because the eyes begin loosing track of individual lines. The newspaper layout may seem somewhat arbitrary but it turns out to be much easier to read that way.
In any case, what’s with all these prohibitions against letting users have a choice in the matter? Thom is right, these restrictions are insane particularly on large screen desktops. The reality is widescreens are useful specifically to place side by side. If the OS imposes such arbitrary restrictions as metro does, then it defeats the point in having a widescreen monitor in the first place.
Anyone taking bets on whether microsoft is going to jump out of the curtains on win8’s release yelling “Surprise! We were just kidding guys, the look on all your faces is priceless. We really had you all going didn’t we?”
Yep. Exactly. I just wish high-res 16:10 screens were easier to come by, but unfortunately they seem to be succumbing to inferior (for non-multimedia/video computer usage) “high definition” 16×9 displays (which, IMO, belong only in the living room to watch your TV and movies and play your home console video games on). But unfortunately, they’re infesting every single device type being developed. All in the name of “multimedia” with the convenient buzzword “HD”.
Gotta love bullshit buzzwords like “HD” stealing our vertical resolution–which, in my opinion, is the most important of all for computer work. So what if tiny bars are shown on the top and bottom of the screen while playing HD videos? You barely even notice them, if you even notice them at all.
In the end–I’ll take more vertical space and less horizontal space for my reading pleasure, thanks. It’s much easier on the eye, and is actually possible to read. Just imaging a giant book that is not separated into columns… that would be so difficult to read it’s not even funny.
Edited 2012-06-04 05:41 UTC
Such really high res (more than 1080p, I presume) screens were always “succumbing” to “inferior” types – in the past to much more inferior types, actually.
The situation is much better than it used to be; be happy that the “HD” means widespread popularisation of quite high res screens, that you can have them very inexpensively, funded by economies of scale (which also makes large multimon setups much more accessible; plus if one monitor in such setup is rotated 90 degrees…).
And if you want to go higher than that – well, such screens were always hard to come by, and expensive. So pay up, don’t expect people “subsidizing” those just yet – they’re happy with HD, so that’s what production is geared for.
Alternatively, wait a short decade or so… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHDTV (but I bet some will still be complaining in a similar way)
Edited 2012-06-04 07:51 UTC
I’m a developer and vertical space is very import.
My main screen is a ViewSonic VP2365WB in 1080×1920 mode. Any 80/20 split would need to be a top/bottom split or things would just look ugly and useless.
I also find this mode ideal for web browsing since I can see most of the page. It’s also great for doing word processing work.
I’ve yet to see a review from someone running Metro on a widescreen monitor running in portrait mode.
Which is why iPad feels so usable. A screen of an “equivalent” 1366×768 laptop just doesn’t cut it.
I often argue against Apple (in fact, I own 0 of their products) but I like that they can take step back and look how the technology fits a normal person before designing a device. Others seem follow the rule “more is better”, which is not even true (sometimes “more”=”still not enough” or “more”=”pointless”).
Way to not understand Elastic/Responsive Design. You are supposed to put new content in the empty space and/or increase the text size to suit.
That’s ridiculous. Optimal line length is only about ~12 words, based on the arch the human eye can optimally scan without straining other muscles at average eye-desktop display distance. Increasing the font size to maintain this optimal line length at 1920pix width would require 36pix font height – which is pure insanity.
Adding additional content is easier said than done. Sure, you can fill up the whitespace with pointless junk like stock images or enlarged quotes, but they add absolutely nothing to the reading experience. Multiple columns, as some suggested, is unworkable as well, since it would require weird up/down eye movements, and would generally looks like ass.
I have to disagree with that. It’s mostly a matter of how and what you place in the columns and how you place the columns themselves. Even here on OSNews you use two columns in multiple places to separate different kinds of content and/or to categorise content; it’s just a matter of designing it properly.
I didn’t say it was the be all an end all solution, did I?
I am just saying that it is a technique to scale websites to devices capabilities.
As for extra content, Google for example put in the JavaScript Preview in the “right hand whitespace”. The page still works at half width.
Edited 2012-06-04 11:00 UTC
Which is just useless, performance-degrading fluff, further strengthening my point that adding extra content just because Microsoft’s designers believe everybody must focus on a single task AND NOTHING ELSE is not a good way to go.
I would hardly call it fluff, but then again you tend to make blanket statement about subjects like there is a “right and a wrong” … it is a visual aid, nothing more or less, you either think it has value or it doesn’t, I happen to think that it does.
Performance degrading … utter nonsense. You really don’t know how these websites are built do you?
You do realise that must of this stuff is done Asynchronously so it doesn’t block the browser?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95256794
And when it comes to multi-tasking, I will take the word of a MIT professor over your opinion anyday.
Edited 2012-06-04 12:14 UTC
…says the person who just posted like 5 comments stating that how I use my computer is wrong. Ironic much?
See what happens when you’re doing some heavy lifting and you happen to mouseover on the show preview arrows. Saying it doesn’t impact performance is laughable, at best.
It sounded pretty dumb to me, when whoever designed the UI put in mechanisms that didn’t require you to do that so you could get on with other things … just me
If it is heavy Network activity … maybe. But if you are talking about CPU time or disk I/O either you have insufficient ram or I am calling bullshit.
I hit 90% CPU time on a compile on my dev box of 90+ C# projects, the compile time is more than several minutes on a Xeon CPU … and I can browser the web fine on JS/Image heavy sites at the same time.
Edited 2012-06-04 12:25 UTC
If you’re using any browser that isn’t Chrome, yes, it does impact CPU time.
When I’m on JavaScript heavy sites on my mini-laptop (1.2 Core 2 Duo, FWIW), I can hear the CPU fan ramping up significantly, and the machine gets more sluggish. CPU fan ramping up means it’s not a RAM issue (the HDD indicator would be on, for swapping, which I also see often).
A 1.2ghz core 2 duo is 7 years old (I have a Dell D430).
Firefox, IE, Chrome and Opera all have the JIT compilation techniques.
A 1.2ghz core 2 duo is 6-7 years old (I have a Dell D430).
Firefox, IE, Chrome and Opera all have the JIT compilation techniques, that work rather well.
That’s probably because you’re not reading properly. Nobody is saying here that you can do two things at once. We’re stating that we’d like to be able to instantly switch between tasks – simply by adjusting our eyes, instead of using the mouse and keyboard to do so as Metro demands.
Next time, please read better.
I knew exactly what you meant, I just think you are wasting your time, and Microsoft actually doing user testing and making the UI so it actually forces you to be more productive is better IMHO.
And just a few posts up you’re accusing me of sharp right/wrong thinking, and here you go stating that my way of using a computer is wrong, and Microsoft’s way is right.
Yeah, I can see how you would benefit from being fed just one task at a time. Honestly, I can.
Down to personal insults already Thom?
EDIT: BTW I was waiting for compiler to finish the compile, while I wrote that.
Edited 2012-06-04 12:28 UTC
Nope, just noting that your comments aren’t particularly consistent, and that as such, you may benefit from doing just one thing at a time, and nothing else. That’s not an insult – in fact, I know lots of people who are like that.
I, on the other hand, am not easily distracted, and can easily deal with several things happening around me while still being able to focus on whatever it is I need to focus on.
Edited 2012-06-04 12:27 UTC
They don’t have to be, it isn’t a subject that is about wrong or right or being consistent … it is subjective and therefore you can’t call me out on it being hypocrital or inconsistent.
Because
1) We weren’t talking about exactly the same thing
2) It is subjective.
Good for you … I hope your mental masturbation is complete after that statement.
Edited 2012-06-04 12:51 UTC
You do realize that working on a single task does not mean that you only need a single application?
As a developer I typically have an editor (for a ‘To Do’ list and notes) and Word (architecture description) open beside my development environment. Add a browser for webbased documentation or stackoverflow.com answers and you have four windows for that one task you are working on.
You might argue that this is a problem for the 1%. True, but I can easily imagine many other professions needing several visible and active applications at once. Reading and replying to a research paper / contract / business proposal while researching it online. Or using the numbers from your business application in Excel to run some `What if’ scenario’s.
Agreed. I’m amazed that some people don’t get this.
On my 27″ monitor browser windows typically use about 60% of the screen width. For some sites, such as those displaying large pictures, I’ll maximise the window, but more often I find myself reducing the width even further.
Even spanning 60% of the screen width I find that a big block of text can be uncomfortable to read. I’ll shrink it down so that the text width isn’t any greater than it’d be in a paperback book. To me that makes a significant difference to my speed and enjoyment when reading.
I do the same in ebook readers, text editors, PDF viewers, and anything else where I’ll be reading more than a page or two of text. Even for the simple task of consuming written words I’d find Metro’s full screen limitations annoying and uncomfortable.
I’m amazed that some people don’t get another thing…
Those who point out it’s a “fault” of OSNews layout don’t really propose “widescreen pages of non-wrapping text” as an alternative – but more, say, a multi-column (more than 2) layout, as is typical in “wide” print magazines.
Edited 2012-06-10 23:45 UTC
Why would you want a website to use the full width of a large screen? That would be a badly designed website because it would be difficult to overlook and navigate.
Edited 2012-06-04 11:02 UTC
Please see http://bostonglobe.com
…which looks virtually identical to OSNews at 1920pix.
http://www.osnews.com/img/26032/uh.png
They too could do more, but in Chrome on Linux maximized 1920px OSnews has 474 pixels wasted on each side, whereas the Boston Globe has 336 pixels wasted on each side. Meaning that OSnews uses about 51% of the space allocated to it, but the Boston Globe uses 65%. Certainly a better effort.
I think more the point that joshv was making though is that Boston Globe looks great at all widths less than 1440, using CSS selectors.
I think there are many arguments to be made about the suitability of Metro, but it is certainly also a failure of OSnews that it doesn’t make good use of screen estate in maximized browsers. Many people, myself included, don’t multitask that much when browsing the web.
The reason I’m interested in this is because I designed the next version of OSNews (don’t have public previews yet, so don’t ask) and have, indeed, played with the idea of what to do with the stuff on the sides. And, other than increasing font size (not an option), or adding in useless stuff (stock photo bullshit or enlarged quotes or whatever) do nothing to improve the reading experience.
This reading experience is the focus for me, and anything that doesn’t improve this reading experience won’t be implemented in OSNews Nina (codename of the next version). For 95% of sites out there – especially relatively light, text-focussed sites like OSNews – it’s virtually impossible to make use of this horizontal space without adding fluff.
So yes, I experimented with it, but came to the conclusion that anything I could do to make use of all this horizontal space would only serve to harm the reading experience, instead of improving it. And, well, adding stuff without any reason?
Nope.
I think the most likely suggestion here is to go the horizontally scrolling overflowing column route. At least that is the setup that Microsoft appears to favor for Metro, since pretty much all Metro apps have to solve a similar problem. For the actual front-page I would expect that this could be made to work fairly nicely, but I’ll readily admit that the comment section is a trickier problem.
edit: To add to this, stories on the front-page are currently about 600 pixels wide. I can in fullscreen on a 1920×1080 monitor see four “main” stories. Narrowing them slightly to just under 500 pixels would allow those to be fit side-by-side for the purposes of a horizontal layout, and they could then get most of the 1080 height to themselves, allowing much longer sections of the stories to be visible. Granted, the “page 2” part also needs to be fit in there, but those could serve to fill out the columns. Unfortunately this is a bit more work, since packing the columns needs to be done somewhat intelligently, but it certainly seems like a reasonable way to do things when trying to use the space.
Edited 2012-06-04 14:15 UTC
I think it is worth noting that many of us stopped using the Gawker sites when they went to what felt like a Tablet site design that happened to work on a desktop. So make sure you use analytics to make sure that any design choices are backed up by usage and trends.
Is there a strong corellation between those that have high res screens and those using up to date browsers?
If so you might want to take a look at multi-column at extreme width if you are planning a reactive design.
http://caniuse.com/multicolumn
Exactly. I like how he makes a point of how bad it uses the space with the website he’s actually posting to himself.
Oh really?
You want to have more text in the horizontal plane? Make two columns of OSnews ..
Yes! We can use a better GUI! 🙂
Go to the land of the free, where you are not forced; use what you need, use what you want! 🙂
Edited 2012-06-04 08:48 UTC
There isn’t much point in complaining about any of the shortcomings of Metro. It isn’t like Microsoft is going to listen to what we the Consumers have to say. If they were going to listen to us they would have added the ability to switch from metro to a “Classic” desktop environment with a start menu.
People talk about the Apple RDF. Well, the microsoft one is even worse.
The ‘la-la-la-la I can’t hear you’ attitude of microsoft speak volumes about how much they care about the hundresds of millions of users (say 10%) who will/are mightly peed off about the introduction of Aero.
I know that my employer is already thinking long and hard about not using windows any longer once Server 2008 stops being sold. This means no more server licenses. No more SQLServer Licenses, RHEL & Oracle here we come.
On the desktop front, we have just finished rolling out Windows 7. Many of us virtualize the corporate build and install Linux in its place already.
Notes and LibreOffice are making the need to use windows less and less.
Even some of my friends who work for MS are dispairing at the thought of Metro. They are already hearing dissent from their customers. This is a step too far by far.
If they were to make Windows 8 have both classic and Metro then I am sure that over time it would gain acceptance.
Even those masters of the RDF, Apple didn’t force OSX onto their users. The kept MacOS-9 going for sometime after the introduction of OSX. will MS learn a lesson here?
Sadly I doubt it.
Lotus Notes? You poor, poor thing…
How are the downgrade rights that MS gives worse, and what MS needs to additionally learn? (plus, with MS those are good operating systems, at least on a technical level – Apple kept not-very-good OS9 available because OSX itself was a pig for at least the first two releases, and large part of essential Mac software ran only on OS9 – well, or in Classic under OSX, making it even more of a pig / overhead)
And with largish employer / company, it’s not about individual licenses but more or less subscription to any MS OS you want, anyway.
WRT RDF – come on, we’re talking about a movement which refused to pirate OS8, bought en masse a substandard product to ~”help save Apple” ( http://www.forbes.com/1997/08/08/column.html ) …hard to beat that one.
At least notes runs on Linux. You can’t say that for a Microsoft Email client. Then there is that joke called ‘entorage’. I’m sorry but despite all its shortcomings I’d far rather use notes than exchange.
I was referring to OS9 not OS8.
I could come back and rant on about ‘Windows ME’, Windows ‘The wow starts now’ Vista but I won’t.
Every company comes out with some dodgy software from time to time. Dec VMS V5.0 was another.
What I was trying to say was that when OSX started shipping, Apple realised that not everyone wanted to move to it right away. so you bought your new Mac and got the old and the new software disks in the package.
If Microsoft would understand that a good proportion of their userbase does not like or want Metro to be forced on them and announce that they would continue to sell(and update) Windows 7 and Server 2008 then a lot of the naysayers would be satisfied.
It seems to me that at the moment microsoft in denial about how Metro well will be accepted in the real world. Even some of their most proactive supporters in the press are beginning to doubt the wisdom of this move.
Yeah, Lotus Notes is multiplatform, and that’s pretty much its only redeeming quality
(the humanity would be possibly better off if Notes didn’t run anywhere, any more ;p )
I wasn’t writing only about OS8, also OS9 – just that news article talked specifically about OS8 (besides, OS9 wasn’t much better, and with the initially intended numbering it probably even would be OS8 – but OS 7.7 was renamed 8, to terminate clones; and OS9 was also expected at first to be OS8.smth; they are close)
Yes, ME or Vista were a bit dodgy – but there were decent Win releases around their time, actually offered by MS (at the least via downgrade rights, or generally via “pick any OS you like” licensing deals with companies).
Vista is more contemporary to us than that OS9/X thing, BTW, so if anything MS is the one who more recently demonstrated how they do get it… (vs., I don’t know, the not very optional in practice iOS upgrades – which do break the experience on older devices a bit)
Windows 7 (VistaSE really, BTW) will be supported until 2020 or so, XP is still supported.
What is the difference between throwing a CD into the box and downgrade rights? (other than the former wasting plastic and/or an admission, just masked by RDF, how inadequate the default was and/or PC OEMs avoiding such expense – they’re different than a manufacturer doing both hw & sw)
So again, what does MS needs to additionally learn? (and what does any present denial about Metro acceptance change? IIRC they hyped Vista, too)
Edited 2012-06-05 06:03 UTC
Don’t let anyone bash you for Notes. It’s a good client especially in an enterprise environment.
ACtually, there’ve been a number of changes from the DP to the CP and to the RP, in response to users’ feedback. The inclusing of Flash in Metro IE10, for example.
Taking the hypothetical usage data, if 90% of users single task, they’re seeing that white space today. Actually I saw it while reading the article, and I’m sure many others did too. And if 100 million users is a lot, 900 million is a lot too.
Metro is a one-size-fits-all environment. I don’t mean to defend it, but if the outcome is forcing the 10% to see what the 90% see every day, it might achieve a lot more than its value as a desktop environment.
Note that websites coded for a relatively fixed width can only be resized within a narrow band – too small, scrollbars emerge; too large, whitespace. If the outcome is thinking freshly about how to render content at different sizes, it won’t just be metro users who benefit, but those who like to resize windows to very customized dimensions too.
Yes, the web is the way it is. And yet, the web is popular – so the good news is that while it’s ugly, it’s no dealbreaker to people viewing OSNews and countless other sites. If that 10% of people who design websites are now having to think freshly about the problem, we all benefit.
That MS is struggling with such basic issues as the difference in work styles between handheld and desktop/laptop users shows they are a company that has lost its way.
Like most professionals who use computers, I feel that if they want to add handheld/touch interface, great. But making it difficult to access the Classic desktop …. big mistake. We may see a real textbook lesson in monopolistic control to see how they make this one stick.
Excellent post with real constructive criticism and genuine solutions. +1.
For #1 though, a few nitpicks:
You can get around the issue of OSNews looking terrible in it’s “snapped state” by implementing CSS3 Media Queries and adapting to changes in the layout size.
Overall though, you make your point well. I would like the snapping mechanism to be overhauled in the near future, with fine grained control over what individual apps (Both Metro and Classic) can snap.
Good examples include seeing 2 or more browser tabs side by side, Visual Studio panes, etc.
I believe this is where it’s going eventually. It is actually an app store requirement that Apps implement a good snapped state UI, so hopefully you won’t be in the situation where apps don’t take advantage of the layout size.
The rest of your points I can get behind 100% .
I can’t understand how using Metro can be productive. It’s beyond my comprehension. From what I’ve tested so far it is one, huge joke. The worst thing – however – is that you practically have no choice if you’re Windows user. It’s just forced down your throat and there’s nothing you can really do about it.
It reminds me of Unity and Gnome3 in *nix worlds, but there – at least – you have a choice of plentora of other desktops. Windows doesn’t give you any choice [and let’s not call this “Windows Classic mode” a valuable alternative, please … It doesn’t seem to be one].
What I did with pre-RP versions was that I put notepad.exe into the startup folder and installed a startmenu replacement (there are a few options for that) and after login and a few seconds wait, it went automatically to the desktop. In RP I tried to do the same thing by puttin notepad.exe in the HCU/Sw/Ms/Win/CV/Run in the registry, and it starts notepad, but it doesn’t switch automatically to the desktop. I couldn’t solve this up to now (maybe someone else could, I didn’t search for it yet).
I don’t really have time for it, but I hope someone will, to make (either through a custom program, or with some internal Win8 smartness) Win8 automatically drop you on the desktop after login.
Edited 2012-06-04 07:17 UTC
You can use Classic Shell, a third party application, but what a kludge to have to do this…
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
Is it really terribly hard to hit WinKey+D to launch the desktop?
Some people are ridiculous.
You mean people must wait in front of their PC and manually do it instead automating it?
You sir are utterly ridiculous.
Say it again with me:
Login to Windows:
Type WinKey+D
I’m not asking you for a college thesis here. I’m sure you can do it.
You’re preaching to the helpless. There is no cure for stupid.
There seems to be no cure for a mind that can’t distinguish efficiency.
I would gladly pay for Sinofsky’s cure if I could but he a hopeless Mac lover who will have to burn a few billion MS bucks and cut the stock down before the world realizes he is a jackass.
This is the same guy who was at the helm of the successful development and launch of Windows 7. Yeah, that OS everyone loves so much, him.
He’s suddenly the target of your scorn, and why you try very hard to paint him as a know-nothing is beyond me.
Well, no more ridiculous than those people who can’t include a “disable metro” option somewhere.
my parents win8 install failed yesterday morning. powered on to find mail, messenger and a few others saying something went wrong and give a link to the answers page with no actual topics… not impressed with it
its a preview.. im guessing you recommended they install it. I would more question that judgement rather than complain an unfinished product is unfinished.
Actually, no. My dad asked to try it. He has wanted to try it since Consumer Preview.
I put him back with Windows 7 today. He said even basic things were missing, such as being able to share a picture in messenger, no way to change the font/size, too empty (white space) and too much pulling down on things (IE metro tabs, and active metro apps on the left) and just getting to his pictures to view manage them wasn’t as easy for him.
All very valid points, for the average consumer these things are show stoppers and I’d have thought that microsoft would have polished them up before releasing it as a consumer preview let alone a release preview.
As often as I agree with Thom, he has not addressed the most onerous limitation of Metro, which is the single task, single application view Metro confers on the entire OS, even when using the legacy Desktop..
This has only been obliquely discussed and casually mentioned, but for many Enterprise and Production applications this won’t be just a ‘deal breaker’ but could literally escalate to ‘life and death’ — and for any User that ‘uses’ the OS for more then consumption, it’s a huge waste of time and effort in UI manipulation to do work that requires more then on application.
The number roles the OS could potentially be deployed in that are mission critical in industry, government, and public service is enormous, but in many of these deployments Operators and Users must be able to concurrently keep an eye on multiple tasks and applications in real-time without interruption.
Many features of the Metro UI force the User to use single task parts of Metro interrupting and obfuscating other work that’s being monitored and performed completely removing multi-tasking from the OS as far as User input and observation are concerned — this is not acceptable OS design that can even be tolerated in these roles.
Similarly in production environments where interruptions can cost millions a minute (or more) this sort of thing just won’t fly. Paul Thurrott may be correct in his May 29 essay in that Microsoft may have literally ‘Give’n Up’ on Windows 8 for businesses — and any serious use of the OS over and above passive consumption…
Edited 2012-06-04 07:15 UTC
While that seems to be the case at this point, I doubt thay’d want to do that, that would be suicide. The consumer-only user base is pretty large, that’s true, but surviving only on them – without the enterprise market and the associated developer base – doesn’t sound very realistic. If they’d drop everything and go fully for a consumer-centric OS, that could be the largest win imaginable for iOS and Android (and for Ubuntu on the desktop as well).
Just like Vista was going to herald the beginning of the end of Microsoft..dream on.
If Microsoft can break their dependency on slow moving businesses, then that’s a proposition which would likely look very attractive to them. The key isn’t to see where things are now, but where things are going.
Mobile growth is exploding, the form factors people use are changing, and the use cases around the devices are changing.
Microsoft makes 30% off of any paid app in the app store, that’s up from 0% currently under Windows 7. The money is obviously in their consumer market.
Doesn’t open up any opportunity for Linux particularly, because they have their own shit they need to get together, plus there’s always Windows 7.
At least until Windows 9 comes, Microsoft has more breathing room, and is able to refine what is Windows 8 to fit businesses a little more naturally. By then I speculate that WinRT will be mature enough to fully replace Win32.
Vista did not shove a new restrictive usability paradigm down on users. The negative reaction to Vista was due to performance, compatibility and under the hood changes. Windows 8 is a totally different kettle of fish.
You mean like how .Net has replaced Win32?
Oh sure. Vista’s DRM was going to herald the end of computing. It was going to take your first born and lock him away in a dungeon.
Aero Glass was never going to be liked, I can’t believe they’re actually using the graphics card!
Oh, want some more hilarity? People complained they couldn’t get the Classic Style start menu in Windows 7.
Fast forward to today, people bitch about Aero going away and the Start Menu (The same one they bitched about a version ago) going away.
Some people are so unbelievably fickle it amazes me.
.NET birthed XAML, which is now a core part of the Windows Division. And C# (which runs ontop of .NET) is a first class WinRT citizen.
The WinRT APIs (and the WinRT additions to COM most notably inheritance using IInspectable and aggregation) are clearly inspired by .NET .
C++/CX includes things like Generics, Interfaces, and Partial Classes which come straight from C# .
Oh, and that WinRT thing, the entire bedrock of Windows 8? The metadata format comes directly from .NET . You can use .NET dissasemblers to inspect the WinRT APIs.
So yes, .NET has had a hand in replacing Win32. Of course, over a decade and a half some details change, but the influence is still there.
It’s funny when people bring past arguements as if they somehow invalidated current complains.
First they assume that all those complains have been raised by exactly the same individuals that would have been changing their minds through time.
Then they completely ignore that just because someone wants old features back doesn’t necesarily mean they were particulary good, maybe it’s just that the new ones are worse.
My point is, past is prologue. People are afraid of change, however trivial it might be.
People complained about Aero Glass, before they complained about Luna. Then they complained about how DRM would end the world (Remember the fanatical FSF articles? Yeah, I cringe too.)
With 7 it was the new Taskbar and removal of the classic start menu. (Omg where are my program text labels, the lack of redundant information is killing me!)
Now people love the Taskbar, love Aero, love Windows 7. The same people who dogged Windows XP relentlessly for years, and Vista, and 7 at the time.
People will love Metro. I bet you in ten years, any tweak to Metro will be a travesty.
Bookmarked.
Question: Do all your posts start scored at 1, or do you have an incessant little bastard downvoting everything you say?
I don’t benefit from the +1 regular readers get by default when their trust score is high enough. I think it’s technically a bug, but I don’t care enough to, eh, care about it.
Don’t you love it already? ;P (just with caveats… and not everywhere)
LOL! O.K. That’s funny Thom.
True, but that reasoning also serves as excuse to dismiss complains about changes that are for the worse.
And you are again asuming that it’s the same people that complained about those things that now love them, which would surely come handy to sweep aside all the critizism about Windows8 wasn’t it because you are just making assumptions.
I’ve yet to find anyone in real life that “loves” Windows 7 anyway (or any other OS, for that matter). Maybe that’s just a nerd thing, while the rest of the world just tries to get things done with whatever they have at hand, often wondering why they keep changing things just when they had managed to get used the last OS release.
Agreed. Which is why I try to distinguish the people who legitimately have complaints and offer solutions (All of Thom’s solutions in this editorial are sensible and his criticisms are fair), and those who just spout off things like “Metro can’t multitask! Metro sucks! Microsoft is doomed.”
I don’t mind having a constructive discussion with someone, but when people respond in the latter fashion, it just makes me think back to the same naysayers from previous releases.
I’ve said it before and I don’t mind repeating it: the general populace will whine at first mostly because they just don’t want to have to learn new things, and eventually they’ll settle for Metro. They won’t love it, but they won’t hate it either.
It’s the geeks who go from one extreme to another.
.NET is used more often for new software but most in-house is Win32 by inertia. Win32 isn’t dead but .NET is certainly more popular for new projects.
Windows 7 polled well early on but the early feedback on Windows 8 is negative.
You and Sinofsky can live in denial but this OS is going to flop. The polls are dead on, Windows 8 sucks. Enterprise is going to be livid when they are asked to pay for this.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1238259/poll-will-you-buy-windows-8/320
This will be worse than Vista.
You mean, Vista, that colossal failure? The same OS which sold 20 MILLION copies in its first month?
The same OS which sold 180 MILLION copies in its first year?
The OS with a total install base of 330 MILLION?
Let’s keep things in perspective, maybe Vista got some (arguably unfair) bad PR, but a sales failure it was not. At the time, it was Microsoft’s fastest selling PC operating system.
I’m sure Windows 8 will be the same.
How many of them were forced sales ? A few months after the release of Vista, it was not possible to buy anymore a computer with XP. So people who needed to buy a computer were facing the choice of “not buying a computer” or “buying a computer with Vista”. Guess which option they chose ?
They got so much bad PR, that they had to offer people buying a computer with Vista the option to downgrade it to XP.
And as of today, there are still three times more users of XP than Vista (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems).
Also worth to note, W7’s retail sales were 234% higher than of Vista
(http://technorati.com/business/article/windows-7-retail-sales-extre…). It shows how much people were interested in W7 in comparison to Vista.
That I can agree, Windows 8 will be forced sale upon people when they buy a new computer.
You also know XPs sales were slower than Vista’s right?
Believe it or not, the PC market grows and things sell faster.
Shocking, I know, but try to take it all in.
I am keeping it in perspective which is that their image was seriously damaged and there were defections to the mac.
There was also the negative perception that lingered even after Vista had been fixed. It didn’t matter, consumers had decided that Vista was bad and Microsoft decided to stop trying to convince them otherwise and release Windows 7.
Why risk the same fiasco? For what? Your attitude of “they’ll buy it anyways” says a lot about the product itself. I don’t see Windows 8 defenders blogging about how much they love having their icons dumped onto a horizontal screen or having their multi-monitor setup gimped. Defenses typically revolve around “getting used to it” which says everything. When the customer doesn’t like the meal you don’t say “WELL YOU WILL GET USED TO IT”. Good Christ you and Sinofsky don’t get business as well as a little girl running a lemonade stand.
Which was subsequently fixed the next release cycle, the sun rose and set and Microsoft laughed to the bank. Right? That’s exactly how that story ended.
FAR from the doomsday that many like to cart around.
Let’s just keep it in perspective. These so called failures have outsold the “mac” which it supposedly caused an exodus to. The notion is ridiculous.
Doesn’t make economic sense to keep up PR for a product that’s a release cycle ago, so yes, for the first time in the comments so far, you’re right.
No, I’m just commenting on the “It’ll be another Vista” as if Vista sold 2 copies.
I am quite fond of the live tiles, both on my Phone and on my Laptop.
For my dev box, I happen to quite like the improvements they made to MultiMon in Windows 8. I no longer need a third party program like UltraMon.
Users often don’t know what’s good for them. They’ve complained about the introduction of the start menu, every subsequent tweak, and then the removal of the start menu. Same for various other features in Windows.
People are just afraid of change, but it usually only lasts a release cycle until they get a hilarious case of amnesia.
Yeah …and that failure of Vista alone still has more users, now, than all versions of OSX combined (in web stats at least – so the real numbers are probably even more in favour of Vista, considering that OSX users are on average from more affluent places, they most likely browse more)
Win7 is Vista (second edition), essentially – quite telling how such trick (“lucky 7”) was enough to make people love it.
High-reward progress often requires risk – and MS might be eyeing, I guess, at possibly winning combination of ~”Metro 3.0″ (it usually took 2 to 3 iterations to make something nice) and display tech derived from MS Surface 2.0 – maybe it will flop, maybe it will be epic; we won’t know it without somebody trying.
(and I suppose MS might think that it requires “forcing” devs and so on a bit, so the apps will be there on time)
Nelson you need to learn to do a little market research as to where Microsoft makes it’s bread and butter, always has, and where it never has… The ‘Mobile Market’ is an abject fad of consumption toys for idiots that don’t really know how to use computers for productive work…
That’s well and fine and it may make money, but the people that actually make those toys and the toy software for them need an OS with a multi-tasking interface to make them for you — not to mention the people that dispatch the ambulance for the Cretins that can’t play with their passive consumption toys and walk or drive at the same time…
Edited 2012-06-04 08:52 UTC
Developers are well taken care of in Windows 8. Microsoft has done a spectacular job with every aspect of the developer story.
Visual Studio 2012 knocks it out of the park. C# is improved dramatically with async/await.
XAML is fast and fluid, first class support from C# and even C++
JS/HTML5 have great tooling alongside XAML in Blend.
Developers are going to love Windows 8, and in fact, I read an article where an Android developer said its no contest, Windows 8 is hands down the better development platform.
The tooling is superior, the languages are superior, and the APIs are conducive to creating a great experience on all form factors. So what exactly is it you’re worried about?
Might turn out to be true, unless you want native app (or at least parts of it) development.
Why? C++ is perfectly useable from WinRT.
No they won’t.
We Windows developers have been complaining on the MSDN blogs. The overwhelming opinion is negative.
This OS SUCKS for anyone who uses more than a browser.
Why doesn’t Sinofsky allow Metro to be a choice? Because he knows that he can only force it on the market, it’s not good enough to stand alone on merit.
P.S. I own a Windows Phone and like it so please keep the retarded “ur just afraid of change” defense out of this. I somehow wasn’t afraid of Metro in WP7 but detest how it is used in Windows 8. Metro in WP7 makes sense but in Windows 8 it is shoved down your throat. Dumping a bunch of icons onto the desktop is not more efficient than a folder tree-view, I kind of thought that was common sense.
The feedback has not been overwhelmingly negative as you suggest, in fact, gathering something like that purely from comments on a blog (With no guarantee on the technical background of any said commenter) is intellectually dishonest.
I suppose you’re entitled to your opinion, I just respectfully disagree. In my own use, I’ve found it to be useful for me, and I use it for more than a browser, so I question the wisdom of what you say.
That’s nice.
Nelson is paid Microsoft shill, don’t even bother arguing with independently qualified facts, the guy is technically illiterate, trolls incessantly and would lie about the color green…
That’s a joke right? Visual Studio 2012 is a horrible monstrosity! Unless you are someone that likes in a plain gray house, with gray walls, zero color, and take anti-depressants like they are candy.
The new UI for Visual Studio 2012 has reverted back to an early 90’s appearance with lack of color making it harder for a developer to actually find what they are looking for – commonly used objects no longer stand out. That is a horrible mistake of any UI to have everything blend in like that.
Seriously, anyone that thinks the new UI for VS 2012 is actually an improvement needs to be taken out behind a woodshed……
The UI in VS2012 RC is nothing like you describe. Might help to try it out.
Not bland and blended together?
This:
http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/UploadFile/592808/install-visual-studi…
And the stupid, stupid, stupid CAPITALIZATION of the menus:
http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/UploadFile/592808/install-visual-studi…
Crappy:
http://freshbrewedcode.com/danmohl/files/2012/06/FsCsMvc4VS21012RC….
My point still stands. Horrible UI that is counter-productive for developers.
Nelson can’t hear you (or apprehend facts) over the sound of how great his voice is…
Not bland and blended together?
[/q]
http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver…
There is clear contrast here
http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver…
and there.
True, it’s not a gradient fest, and the colors are a little more subtle, but it is hardly horrendous, and I personally prefer it to VS2010.
The icons have subtle colorization which works better to indicate purpose. Green being the signature color for C# for example. It makes them MORE distinctive than the sea of colored faux 3D icons that VS2010 had.
The capitalization will be a settings toggle at RTM, if you really can’t stand it.
Crappy:
http://freshbrewedcode.com/danmohl/files/2012/06/FsCsMvc4VS21012RC….
Maybe you don’t like it, but I think it’s a leap to say it’s “counter-productive” for developers.
@Nelson
I think we shall just agree to disagree on this one. From my viewpoint (and I think this is where the difference comes into play) is based on the following two key issues:
1. IT IS COMMONLY ACCEPTED AMONG PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE THAT WORDS IN ALL CAPITALIZED LETTERS MAKE READING MORE DIFFICULT. THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO PLACE EMPHASIS ON WORDS RATHER THAN RESORTING TO SOMETHING THAT TRULY IS A “NO NO” TO DO IN DESIGN. I AM GLAD THAT THE OPTION IS THERE TO TOGGLE THE CAPITALIZATION IN ORDER TO TURN IT OFF – because that simply makes it easier to read and isn’t such a sore site for the eyes. Yet, for MS to default the setting to all caps is rather absurd to be honest.
2. If you look at the top of the menu (and pretty much in other areas of the UI), it’s all blended together. Now, I am assuming there will be the possibility to add themes and such. But, as it stands by default, it’s really bland and depressing to look at.
I asked my coworkers (who are developers as well) their thoughts without letting them know my impression, and every single one had the same opinion as I did. Now, I am assuming MS did what they did due to a move to changing the UI to be more in line with Metro – which is a mistake. As a developer, I won’t use Metro. On my two screens here at work, I have VS2010 open on one screen, and multiple windows opened on another. Keep in mind, not all shops are writing strictly ASP.NET applications and such. Many are still using Winforms, WPFs, etc…. With some of our applications, it’s important that I am able to have a DOS window open, an explorer window, and usually examining some text files as well (I know, legacy products suck – but gotta pay the bills!).
Perfect, I have no problem doing so
I’m not entirely sold on their reasoning, but it doesn’t exactly bother me either. If they turned them off by default, or outright uncapped them all together it wouldn’t kill me.
Do you agree with my sentiment on the icons though? I think they stand out a hell of a lot better than the VS2010 (or 08) ones. I spend less time scanning a sea of icons.
Their reasoning (I don’t know if you’ve read the blog) is to emphasize focus on the content and minimize the “noise” of the UI. Stark colors and gradients are sometimes distracting. I don’t know how true it is, but I happen to like Metro, and I love (colors aside) how they’ve streamlined and simplified the menus. I have way more vertical space now.
I hope no shops write ASP.NET, I think it’s overengineered bullshit ;P .
I’m still able to do this in VS2012 and on Windows 8. You’re thrown into Desktop Mode anyway with VS2012, so the ability to tear panes off of Visual Studio and pin them to individual monitors and all that good stuff is still there.
Plus, Windows 8 has some neat multi-mon improvements which help my dev workflow quite a bit.
Do you think any of this is made harder or diminished in Win8?
Great discussion though, forgive my initial abrasive attitude, it’s not common to have a reasonable discussion.
I found the described workflow in this comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/ui5y4/so_does_anyone_in_th… on Reddit pretty interesting. Particularly how they setup the start screen: http://imgur.com/UcjKg Other than using it as a launcher for desktop applications and using a weather live tile, Metro is ignored. I can image this working as well or even better than the archaic start menu when some time is taken to getting used to it and using the keyboard more than the mouse.
Still, a big problem is that Microsoft seems intent to eventually move away from the desktop for all applications, including productivity. So please Microsoft, show some decently complex productivity app examples instead of just a dozen RSS readers or a dashboard mockup of Dynamics (still only showing pretty data).
Edited 2012-06-04 07:44 UTC
Has anyone tried installing the shell from ReactOS in these new Windows versions? How does that work?
No, but Classic Shell works fine…
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
Problem solved I’d say then
Do any of the Metro apologists here even understand that Metro is not a multi-tasking interface? It does not even allow you to concurrently view and use even two applications no less the eleven I have currently running and visible that I need to get work done. Do any of the Metro apologists use the Windows OS for more than passive consumption and entertainment?
– Sincerely,
Someone who’s never used Windows 8.
Is that a painful admission? It must to be here shilling for Microsoft as you are and not even have used the OS, but the pay is good isn’t it?
=O)
Want to talk pain? Pain is trying to find the logic in your posts.
If it was that painful you wouldn’t troll my posts so incessantly Nelson…
Having a less degraded classic apps experience under Metro will never happened.
Simply because it’s a voluntary move.
Microsoft don’t want people to keep using classic apps. What they want is people asking Metro apps because classic ones are now crappier to use.
Because Microsoft needs that developers write Metro apps, a way better locked platform on which Microsoft is putting most of his hopes to become back the wealthiest IT company.
And if for that you needs to make people experience a little bit worse, they wont care one bit.
Personnaly, I see nothing in Windows 8 that could motivate me enough to upgrade from… XP.
Plenty of folks said the same thing wrt upgrading from Win2000 to XP.
Well, ten years later, after putting my hand on a computer running Win2K, I still couldn’t figure out why Microsoft would go Fisher Price on their user interface and double the hardware requirements with XP…
Me->XP or 98->XP, now, I can see how that was an upgrade.
With 2k->XP, MS was probably mostly just more honest in citing hw requirements necessary for pleasant experience.
And then, later service packs added to it (with the focus on safety probably taking its toll in resources; while 2k comes from blissful, more innocent times).
BTW “Fisher Price” – yeah, I always turned it off, but people got used to it …and notice how some are now describing Win8 like that (while probably feeling nostalgic about XP)
Good luck to Microsoft getting users to stop using a classic app called iTunes.
Sinofsky also doesn’t get how much work it would be to convert Office. There is a douchebag in charge of Windows and it appears that only a train wreck will get him out.
You know classic apps still work, right? I mean, you have actually used Windows 8?
Try following the entire thread before responding.
I honestly hope you’re getting paid to shill for this craptastic OS.
Otherwise that makes you the most deluded fanboy on the internet for June 5th, 2012. Congrats.
So you haven’t used it. Gotcha.
Yea that must be it. My blog posts on Windows 8 are all based on my imagination.
My comment was in response to “Microsoft doesn’t want people to keep using classic apps” which I believe is true, well if you fill in Sinofsky for Microsoft.
The more you put your head in the sand the more you look like one of those idiots trying to push their 20% candidate on the rest of us even though he polls the same in every election. Wake the f*** up, people are just not liking what you are selling.
I wont get into the Metro debate too much, since I have stated my opinions on it before. However; even if you don’t view the situation with full-screen webpages as ideal you should certainly view it as a challenge to make OSnews use the space it gets in the most efficient way possible. A specific CSS setup for wide displays, perhaps reflowing it in the horizontal column layout that this setup favors.
It shouldn’t be a huge undertaking, and would probably look better on a fair number of other devices as well. It is a bit backwards to complain that the operating system is providing OSnews with more space than it expects
Edited 2012-06-04 12:03 UTC
Remember the Win7 ads that ended with the phrase “windows 7 was my idea”? Well now it is their idea and we hate it
eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLAO9YnlJSU
I wonder what their new marketing spin will be.
Thom. Don’t have win8 on a PC at the moment but I think you can right click a “classic” app and “pin to start menu” which is all I see metro as, an app launcher.
Anyone else get the feeling this is like watching a plane crash in slow motion?
I say, let them release this pile of an OS, sit back, and watch Microsoft slowly crumble under it’s own bloated mass.
(gets popcorn ready…)
Ah the single task fantasy of Jeff Raskin is alive and well. Too bad it’s only been observed in usability labs.
Raskin pipe dreamed a world where you have one computer just for email, another for web browser, yet another for spreadsheets and so on ad infinitum. Each one of these ‘information appliances’ would be designed to do just one thing well, all the way from hardware to GUI.
Maybe that’s what Microsoft is trying to do. Only without bothering to do anything properly. They want you to buy a separate computer with a Metro license for every one of your tasks.
🙂
I have a 23-inch display, but for some reason have gotten into the habit of browsing in fullscreen mode (I don’t know why; I would’ve been appalled to do so a few years ago). Anyway, Microsoft’s data shows that the overwhelming majority of folks use their apps maximized, so they’re already used to seeing large unused space to the left and right of a webpage’s content.
I only have Firefox maximized, almost everything else I like to keep in smaller windows that are easy to move around as needed. But then again, there’s two good reasons for having my browser like that: I like to be able to see as much of the content as possible, and I view pictures quite often and thus I would lose on the details if I had the browser non-maximized and the picture was downscaled.
Format the hard drive, repartition, and install Linux. Simple and FREE!
Forgotten about the secure boot issue already, have you ?
The Secure Boot which can be switched off on x86 PCs ?
You and your false dilemmas.
Except that this was not specifically about x86, and that on x86, disabling secure boot will still mean messing with firmware settings and potentially breaking your Windows install, which is at odds with the current ease of booting and installing other OSs that was referred to by the OP.
Find me an ARM Tablet with a hard drive, which is what the OP says he’d partition.
Every tablet in existence?
Storage doesn’t have to be a spinning drive to be partition, you know. My laptop and desktop can attest to it.
Quit playing semantics.
Semantics? You asked for a tablet with a hard drive to partition, and I said, every tablet in existence. That’s not semantics, it’s a proper answer to your question.
If you wanted a different answer because you don’t like this one, you may want to think more carefully about how to phrase your question.
Somehow, Neolander understood exactly what I was getting it, without resorting to playing semantics.
Okay, you win that one. Good eyes !
(Though this still negates the potential averse effects of Secure Boot even on x86. where it is not an absolute ban on other OSs but still a major annoyance in their way. Fedora did end up going as low as paying Microsoft for a reason…)
Was the Fedora thing for x86? That’s unfortunate.
Personally, Secure Boot is something I find stupid on non appliance devices (Laptops, Desktops).
It was. They are against it on ARM for now.
I don’t find it stupid, in principle, to sign OS binaries so as to detect if they are altered on boot. My main gripe with Secure Boot is that right now, it is by design a barely disguised method of bootloader locking, rather than the security-oriented feature it claims to be.
Edited 2012-06-05 17:14 UTC
I think Thom’s proposed Metro tweaks would be a real improvement over the current mess, but it would still be painfully limited compared with the window management we already have.
I’ve tried tiling window managers and found that they simply don’t suit the way I work. No matter how Metro apps could be split, I’d still value the flexibility and versatility of individually moveable and resizeable windows. Being restricted to tiled windows would make many of my day to day tasks significantly less efficient.
In a way I’d be more worried about the future of Windows if Microsoft did improve Metro in the way Thom suggests. The more usable Metro becomes, the more of a sure thing it is that the applications I need will move to it, and the more likely it is that the desktop will ultimately disappear.
As it is, Metro is so painfully limited that a significant number of users are sure to hate it. That makes it more likely that the essential software I use will keep supporting the fully functional desktop.
I haven’t logged in for ages but I have to just to say that Metro sucks and you Windows 8 defenders are out of your minds.
How far would you take the “fear of change” defense? What if Windows 10 was a shiny unicorn that you had to chase with your mouse? Is there nothing to be said about productivity? It’s all subjective?
UI design is not modern art, we can objectively state that much of it is bullshit.
Windows 8 is bullshit and I can’t believe it has made it this far. It takes more mouse movements to use and if you can’t see that then you must spend all day staring at youtube. This OS sucks and I’m a fucking .net developer.
Welcome back, sir, I’ve missed you ! Nelson, tomcat, and MollyC have been taking care of the Microsoft apologist job while you were gone, keeping the comment section’s opinion balanced, but they aren’t nearly as good at it (too much trolling, too little smart humour).
I guess Microsoft have really badly screwed up this time, though, since apparently they have managed to piss you off too…
Edited 2012-06-05 06:34 UTC
I am honored to be mentioned amongst the greats 🙂
The great what? Is it true Nelson that the Microsoft Astroturfing Team gets bonuses for for time undiscovered? You haven’t set any records in that regard as you don’t even read or understand what you condemn, and you’re far to crass an apologist…
Saying ‘Shit is the new candy, and it tastes great!’ enough times doesn’t make it a true, but I supposed if the MAT works hard enough they can make it a fact…
9_9
Here at Sinofsky’s Candy 8 Shop we know how much your kids like our candy which is why we tie them down and force them to eat it.
When they try to spit it up we hit them with a belt and explain that what they taste is actually good, and that they might as well eat the piss flavored candy because they have no choice.
So bring your kids down to Sinofsky’s Candy 8 Shop! Your kids will love it!
You’re really more of a necessary evil in this specific case
I’ve never been a Microsoft apologist, I just don’t care about the open source religion which is often misconstrued as MS love in a politically divided tech world.
But as far as apologists go I was pretty shocked to see that even Paul Thurrott doesn’t like it. If Ballmer was paying attention he would know that if their #1 unpaid blogger doesn’t like it then something is seriously wrong.
I agree that there is such a thing as a religious OSS follower (in a similar fashion that there exists Apple and Microsoft zealots), but you have to agree that until recently, you somehow managed to spin pretty much every move of Microsoft in a positive light.
And since, as you say yourself, you usually prefer Microsoft’s stuff, it’s only logical of you to go through great lengths to justify your personal choices. I believe everyone does it to some extent.
But that Metro has nevertheless managed to make you and Thurrot ill says something about the quality of the thing.
I never go to great lengths to justify anything.
I enjoy a good technical discussion and on tech forums there is usually a Nix or open source bias which annoys me. The lack of logic is often the problem, as with nuclear power there is often no sense of how emotional the debate has become; the bias has become the norm.
But keep whatever opinion you want of me, I just hope that it is clear that I’m not afraid to call bullshit on bad software. In the past it was Ubuntu and today it is Windows 8.
There is nothing we can do but hope that enterprise screams loudly enough before this piece of crap releases.
Developers on MSDN blogs have been asking to make metro optional but Sinfosky just goes off into bullshit tangents about “evolution of design” or “convergence” instead of answering simple questions like how is the start screen more efficient than the start menu? or can’t we already get weather updates on gadgets? The guy is a Steve Jobs wannabe who thinks he knows best but unlike Jobs has no sense of design.
We will probably have to wait and watch this train wreck before ballmer realizes that losing billions from enterprise in the hope of getting pennies on the dollar for tablet sales isn’t such a good idea.
“Developers” on general facing MSDN blogs? That doesn’t sound quite right. I highly doubt a majority, let alone a majority of people giving negative feed back on the MSDN Blogs, are programmers by hobby or profession.
The MSDN developer forums specifically for Windows 8 however, is a different story all together, and the story painted by the posts there are all very different from what you claim to be true here.
Developers love .NET, love C#, love XAML, love C++, love DirectX, love JS, and love HTML5. Most importantly, they love they can use these technologies together on Windows 8.
Go to the blogs and start clicking on registered users who are giving negative feedback. 10-1 says most of the positive feedback is coming from employees. I came across a discussion on Codeproject where the majority of users hated it.
Polls like this keep showing that the majority hate it:
http://www.neowin.net/news/weekend-poll-will-you-buy-windows-8
Why do you think developers would be any more favorable? Especially when they tend to use multiple monitors and more than a browser.
HAHAHAHAHAHA that sounds like one of Sinofsky’s lame responses. Developers will love our totally awesome system! Why not let them choose then? If Metro in Windows 8 is so super awesome then why not let it be a choice?
Anyways this is what developers will do in response to Windows 8:
Win32 and .NET developers will continue working on in-house or web software that doesn’t use metro.
Anyone who uses web technologies like HTML5 will continue to target the largest market which is the browser.
Mobile developers will continue to focus on iPhone and Android.
Windows 8 will piss off enterprise along with developers and power users. It’s already happening actually, the “celebrity” Windows developers like Brad Wardell and Gabe Newell hate it. Windows 8 is just a bad idea.
Even if that was true (and let’s just be serious, it’s not) that doesn’t automatically make the naysayers developers. Quit talking out of your ass.
Again, how does that indicate that any are registered developers, as you claimed earlier?
Oh I see, so you WERE just talking out of your ass. Gotcha. The word for that is unsubstantiated bullshit, for future reference.
There is a choice. Metro has a Desktop, and if you really want, 90% of the time you do not have to be in Metro. A fact lost on you, Thom, and a few others who like to be selective with facts.
And miss out on properly monetizing an App Store which has the potential to reach the most customers on the planet? You know how much Windows 7 sales were right? If Windows 8 is even a fraction of that, the addressable market is huge.
I think you understate just how much a centralized store does for discoverability. Being able to transfer your .NET skills over into something you can cheaply profit off of is something very lucrative to developers.
Not all .NET dev shops are purely LOB shops.
Same reasoning as above, you can with very little effort reuse your skillset and make money in an App store with a low barrier to entry.
Funny you say that, just today Windows Phone hit 100,000 apps. Four months faster than Android did in
the same timeframe.
Thankfully, Windows 8 isn’t engineered to cater to “celebrities” or people with tri monitor 27 inch setups. It’s great and workable, but its not the primary usecase.
In fact, the same MSDN Blogs you love to cite show the reasoning for the changes quite clear. They show the dominant screen sizes, resolutions, and the fact that most new PC purchases are mobile laptops. The desktop is on the decline, so making it a primary usecase would be foolish.
Nelson,
“There is a choice. Metro has a Desktop, and if you really want, 90% of the time you do not have to be in Metro. A fact lost on you, Thom, and a few others who like to be selective with facts.”
There is simply no good excuse for not giving us a choice to revert the desktop changes. Microsoft just lacks the confidence to let metro stand on it’s own merit, which is why microsoft has been busy trying to make desktop workflows worse instead.
It should be noted that Nelson is avoiding that point just as much as Sinofsky. Why not let people choose? That question has been asked a hundred times on the Windows 8 blog and they keep pretending to not see it. Sinofsky is a coward and it wouldn’t surprise me if Nelson is on the Windows team or somehow related to the success of Windows 8. The polls are showing that most people don’t like it but they just keep burying their heads deeper in the sand.
http://www.neowin.net/news/weekend-poll-will-you-buy-windows-8
As much fun as it’d probably be to be a part of the Windows Team, no, I’m afraid you’re mistaken.
I think it’s because Windows 8 is a transitional release. The Desktop will eventually be phased out of existence, so keeping it around would be conducive to extending its shelf life.
Metro is the future, and it’s understandable that a lot of people in tech circles dislike it. The Desktop is one of those sacred cows, and it took a lot of courage for Microsoft to be as bold as they are, considering they could’ve just done minor updates to Windows 7.
As it stands, it is quite feasible to keep Metro as out of your way as possible, and the times which you see it daily is not great. The amount of whining in these comments would have you think otherwise, but in general, the Windows 7 desktop is largely preserved.
Maybe Metro 1.0 isn’t your cup of tea, or others here, but I’m confident with a few revisions and when the industry shift is in fuller swing, the doubters will come around.
Just as Vista had to piss people off to introduce a lot of key new architectural changes like WDDM, Windows 8 will piss people off to pave the way for future releases.
Nelson you continue to prattle like a technically illiterate paid PR Shill ‘spokes hole’ as if dislike of Metro was some universally irrational, religious experience, or Luddite perspective — based on subjective personal preference like ‘sacred cows’ and ‘tea’…
While that may be the case for some, there are many things Metro simply can not do as an OS interface/window manager that is a prerequisite for development, enterprise and production deployments of workstations and servers where real work must be performed. Simple established capabilities like being able to concurrently use more then one application without task switching so data may be monitored in real time in one application, and acted upon in another.
Your ‘feelings’ and ‘beliefs’ expounded on ad nauseam in countless zealous over-reaction across multiple threads has nothing to do with real form that follows function prerequisites for modern OS to even function in mission critical and production environments…
But then with your not having produced anything but market speak on Microsoft’s behalf, I don’t expect you understand…
I get it, Microsoft pissed in your cornflakes.
If that’s your idea of ‘getting it’ you’re not just a technically illiterate spokes hole, you don’t even ‘get’ how clueless you are…
9_9
I just find it hilarious how you seemingly talk to yourself in the comments, like a desperate child clamoring for attention.
No one thinks you’re insightful, or clever, or anything.
Can you seriously not see how fundamentally limited and restrictive Metro’s design is?
I think you’re right that Microsoft intend to phase out the desktop — that’s certainly what their actions indicate — but that doesn’t mean that they’ll significantly change Metro. To compare with the desktop for functionality it would need to be radically overhauled, not just tweaked.
You’re acting as if it’s just a matter of getting used to a different way of working, when really Metro massively reduces the GUI’s flexibility. This isn’t fear of change, it’s an unwillingness to use something that makes many tasks much slower and less efficient.
Then don’t use it. Obviously easier than arguing ad infinitum.
Don’t let Microsoft catch you saying that Nelson, they’ll fire you!
=O)
You obviously have no response to the criticism of Metro if all you can do is dismiss it like this. It doesn’t say much for Metro if even the most obsequious Windows fanboy on OS News can’t actually defend it and refute the complaints people have raised.
The last I checked, discussing the pros and cons of various operating systems was one of the main reasons for this site’s existence. Just telling someone not to use one if they have a criticism of it would be a lazy and pointless response even if the commenter had no intention of using it.
As it is, I need to use a variety of Windows software and have to use Windows at work. If the desktop is phased out, or the software I need moves to Metro, then I’ll have little choice but to suffer its cripplware tablet interface. Of course I’m going to voice my opinion about something that might end up seriously damaging my productivity.
What I mean is, I could respond. Of course youd brush it aside and repeat yourself. Mention how Metro cripples you, slows you down, and hurts your first born. How Desktop mode isn’t adequate and how this will end up like Vista.
You’ll rant about how Microsoft doesn’t listen to feed back, how Metro is a toy OS and how developers will flock from it. You’ll point out that you need multiple windows and conclude that Windows 8 is what will drive Microsoft into obsolesence.
Then I’ll disagree and you’ll just restate your original points, this time with more fluff I don’t care about, because you can’t seem to comprehend that your use case is not the use case the OS designed around.
Basically, im saving myself time. Not because I have no response, but because it won’t make a difference.
What an epic load of shit; three paragraphs to say absolutely nothing but you’re petty, lack moral courage, are too lazy, and aren’t capable of handling factual objections. Microsoft should find you a new venue…
Edited 2012-06-07 05:08 UTC
You did respond, it’s your response that I’m responding to now. Unfortunately you chose to respond with evasive blather rather than actually contributing to any real discussion of Metro’s design.
If you were so interested in saving yourself time then you wouldn’t be reading this. If you could make a compelling case for Metro then I’m sure you’d have done so.
You’re fooling nobody.
The whole reason that iOS and Android environments are successful is usability. They are far simpler to use that Windows anything. You can scoff and otherwise act like a pompous ass in these discussions, but the reality is that the majority of the market doesn’t want what it sees in Windows anymore. And to think that Windows 8 – moving further away from the public’s tastes – is an improvement, you are being disingenuous.
I am the IT guy at home and the fact is that very little productive activity gets done on any of our machines unless I am around. I can figure the shit out relatively easily. But why shouldn’t it be intuitive in the first place?
The reality is that when Microsoft thumbed their noses at their own usability studies, instead letting engineers make the calls, they screwed the pooch with the designs. They need to get back to what the public wants and how they want it, even if that means dumbing it down.
I agree with everything you said except for the part about engineers.
Engineers at Microsoft would not vote for Windows 8.
The problem is that Microsoft is ignoring usability studies and letting a Steve Jobs-Wannabe named Sinofsky make the calls. This is really the result of two people (Ballmer and Sinofsky) so please don’t blame engineers in general.
The thing is – Metro in and of itself a good idea on tablets, and maybe as an optional extra on laptops. For desktops, however, it would have made far more sense to offer an extended, desktop-oriented version of Metro, with proper windowing and multitasking, a proper dock/taskbar, etc – and keep classic the way it is now.
This would have made far more sense.
Edited 2012-06-05 14:19 UTC
This so far has been the general response which complicates things for Windows 8 defenders who keep trolling their “fear of change” line. Metro is fine on a touch screen but ripping out the start menu and forcing you into Metro is idiotic.
Metro on the Windows desktop should be an application that runs Metro applications in a Windows…
poor thom typed all this up and it will never make a difference
sorry this is not the way microsoft works 
It’s good for the economy to have Microsoft create jobs for people like Nelson. Thom is helping contribute to our gdp.
I am a paid .NET dev, but not for Microsoft 🙂 I guess in a way you’re right.
You just think that because you’ve thrown Microsoft a bone every once in a while, that it gives you some sort of moral high ground or an authoritative stance on something which you obviously no absolutely nothing about.
The “I like Microsoft and even I cant stand this” line is really tiring. Quit using it to prop yourself up.
I haven’t read a single post in this thread but my own and these two, yet look at how easily I can tell that you two are like one of those car chases that crash through innocent shop fronts. Or the bar brawl that ruins somebody else’s table. GET OUT!
Try multiple displays — all the cool things they added for desktop in Win7 are gone, and on multiple displays Metro falls apart; I particularly find the ‘taskbar on every display’ **** annoying, the ‘blank all displays just because you went to the menu’ **** even more annoying… let’s just come right out and say it:
Windows 8 is basically Microsoft giving desktop users the finger! Now matter how technically sound it is, from a usability and interface standpoint it makes Windows 3.1 look good.
Though as someone pointed out not too long ago, what does one expect from a menu page that appears to be ripped off from AOL Games from 16 years ago.
http://obamapacman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/AOL-1996-vs.-Micr…
NOT that I find the ‘throw them in there in a random and constantly changing order, in a bunch of different sizes and eye-jarring inconsistent colors’ particularly easy to use either… Just leaves me screaming at the display “For **** sake just show me an alphabetical list”.
As to a site like OSNews — it already sucks at 1920, windows 8 has jack **** to do with that. As I’ve said a billion times the past DECADE, Fixed width layout with fixed (px) metric fonts is a complete accessibility /FAIL/ — %/EM, semi-fluid with static minimum and elastic maximum is what SHOULD be used, instead of the half-assed idiotic fixed width that I have to zoom 50% just to read the flow text — that makes TEXTAREA and INPUT’s useless since those ARE declared in %/EM.
In case you couldn’t guess, I’m a large fonts/120dpi user. Don’t even want to think about how useless this site will be when I get my 27″ catleap next month.
Though it’s not that useless for me, I have this user.css applied in Opera:
http://www.deathshadow.com/siteFixes/osnews.css
Which shoves dynamic fonts and semi-fluid layout down it’s throat, so large font/120 dpi users like myself get a proper auto-expanding layout that isn’t idiotically useless when you HAVE to zoom OR on smaller displays where the fixed width is too large.
Though again, with 129 validation errors on the main page it’s not even HTML, it’s gibberish — gibberish like inline-level tags wrapping block level ones, nothing even remotely resembling semantic markup, nonexistant heading orders with DIV+SPAN doing H2’s job… and a whole host of other “HTML what’s that?” construction techniques.
Though I’ve been saying that for what, six years now? Eight? From a coding perspective it was embarrassingly bad THEN. As I said at the last re-skin the old site was actually more accessible and better written than this one… though both reek of “Semantics, what’s that?”
Could be worse though, could be that idiotically stupid bloated HTML 5 garbage that’s basically saying “Go ahead, sleaze it out any old way like it’s still 1998” — since that’s who 5 is for, the people who until recently were slapping a tranny doctype on their HTML 3.2… now they can just slap 5 lip-service on it and still crap out pages 90’s style.
Since it’s sure as shine-ola not targeted at people who embraced STRICT, semantic markup, separation of presentation from content, or the dozen other genuine improvements in methodology of the past decade!
Edited 2012-06-06 15:12 UTC
Oh look Deathshadow doesn’t like it either.
I bet Bill Gates hates it as well.
But I’m sure Nelson will tell us why the opinions of all these Windows users don’t matter. Thurrott’s first thumbs-down of a Microsoft product doesn’t matter. Gabe Newell screaming about Windows 8 doesn’t matter. It all doesn’t matter, somewhere there is a magical island of Windows developers / power users who think it it is super awesome.
The upside of all of this is virtually all the Pundits even those like Foley, Thurrott and Dvorak that butter their bread with pro Microsoft journalism think Microsoft has truly ‘screwed the pooch‘ with Metro on the desktop.
This will mean either a complete rethink of Metro as workstation (and server) user interface, perhaps including some truly innovative TWM design and automation, or, if not, new players encroaching on Microsft’s enterprise cash cow…
Either way it will be interesting news for OSnews as there are some colorful Players ready to step off the sidelines with interesting and compelling platforms, some public and visible, some that are going to be a real surprise if the timing is right and/or certain parties get involved.
One thing is certain: Windows 8/Metro as a desktop OS is a stinker…
=O)
Edited 2012-06-06 19:19 UTC
Yea you would think that might be a wake-up call, and people have been pointing this out but Sinofsky & company (including Nelson) have chosen to dig in just like Baghdad Bob. Sinofsky will have to have his legs blown off by a tank shell before his ego even considers that he might be slightly off on this one.
Edited 2012-06-08 00:52 UTC
Thom, is this the longest thread on OSNews? (I’m sure you have some tools to check it out quickly)
Kinda brings in perspective the whines about lack of “alternative OS” news on OSNews; this, what we have here, brings attention…
(actually, could be funny to make an article “Haiku desktop issues, and how to fix them” for comparative purposes, WRT comments dynamics
)