Following in the footsteps of Hewlett Packard and DesktopLinux.com, Lycoris also announced that the company will withdraw itself from this LindowsOS.com, Inc. controlled event: “Lycoris originally joined the conference after assurances of balanced control and changes to the conference schedule including the addition of keynote speaker Bruce Perens and vendors like Hewlett Packard. The recent changes to the conference schedule, the withdraw of Hewlett Packard, and conference management have given a single-vendor too much focus which is no longer in the interest of Lycoris.” In response LinuxToday.com has published an Open Letter directed towards the Lindows Corporation.
Lycoris Withdraws from First Desktop Linux Summit
2003-02-01 Mandriva, Mandrake, Lycoris 26 Comments
interesting that Lycoris pulls out of a conference thinking it’s too heavily influenced by a “distro” in Lindows that’s not in the best interest of the linux community. This is the same Lycoris that installs by default without a C compiler! You can grab one off the second CD, though installation has to be done manually as their package interface system is broken. An RPM only stance is a gutsy one to take, and I applaud it but not including command line tools is downright unresponsible. even n00bz like me know ./conigure make make install. Imagine our surprise finding out we can’t do this!
Granted Lindows is much worse, opting to be more windows like than linux like. The Click & Run warehouse? I’m paying to download free software? Lindows will make a bundle off that if people are stupid enough to buy preloaded computers at Wal-mart.
You want linux on the desktop get one of the Mandrake 9.1 betas. You’ve got the latest versions of KDE and gnome to play with and they are the standard versions of both, not some propriatry looking gui. compiling and installing tarballs works with only some minor tinkering in rare cases. RPM installation is even easier provided you can find RPMS. If you want linux on the desktop Mandrake is as close as linux is going to get at the moment.
This is one of the most unprofessional summits I’ve ever heard of. It’s so embarrassing for the organizer. I wonder if they realize this at all.
This is utterly stupid, speaking both on the PR stand and of the business stand. From the website, it can be said that Lindows.com is somehow fascinated by Apple and the way they market themselves, one of the biggest mistakes any company can do is to imitate another company, especially one with a totally different business model.
Now, when Robertson announced the submit, he claim it was vendor-neutral. In the spirit of that, desktoplinux.org and many companies wanted to participate. Heck, they even started a commitee (a one that makes recommendation).
So when they kick Bruce Perens out of the keynote spotlight, replacing him with Michael Robertson, they did a few things:
1) Make the event no longer vendor neutral. Robertson claims that it ones to make the event one that is consumer-focused rather geek talk… but how many consumers are coming for the submit? Plus, what makes Lindows think that their solution and approach to the desktop is right.
Other vendors have different approaches, different ways to get to that goal. You can’t say that your approach is right and the only one that is right because you can’t prove that.
2) This also reduces the Linux’s community confidence with the company. I have nothing against for-profit Linux companies, in fact I ridicule those companies that don’t plan to make profit. But PR is a important part of marketing.
Now, if someone was to move to Linux, especially if it is for individual use, he normally ask for recommendations from a Linux user. In other words, the chances of Lindows being recommended is slim to none. And this incident makes it even more difficult for them.
Bad PR doesn’t mean it is better than no PR.
It is quite obvious you aren’t either Lindows or Lycoris’s target market. Get over it. Would the average grandpa or the secretary in a average company need a C compiler? Obviously not. As for the CNR, you aren’t paying mainly for the free software, but for the server and the bandwidth, the ease of use in installation, as well as propreitary software (StarOffice? Hancom Office?).
As for Mandrake, I would hardly recommend it to anyone (even though I’m using it). It obviously isn’t the easiest distribution (not even close, mind you), and so many bugs it gives a bad impression. This is in comparison with the two distributions you mention, as well as Red Hat, SuSE, Xandros, etc.
The average consumer *don’t* care what KDE and GNOME is. As for you saying that compiling and installing tarballs easy, I never had any compilation effort “easy” without configuration (BTW, I compiled my own KDE, GNOME, XFree86, kernel, etc. so I’m not talking from my ass).
You very most obviously needn’t even be out of the Lycoris target market and still are in heavy need for a compiler – if EVERYTHING would exist in the form of RPM, then you wouldn’t, but that’s simply not the case. It already starts out that not all of my basic hardware is supported + there is no RPM for it. I could go on and on… I am rather noob with Linux and I fit very well as their target. If you don’t take it from me, take it from Lycoris.org — there is not a single user that hit the forums at some point because he had to install the compiler for one reason or another. That being a matter of fact, it is maximum stoopid not to include it and pretending it wouldn’t be needed is similarly stoopid. There is simply no Linux that can live without it in the long run and even I have figured that one out.
BTW, the compiler is on CD3, not 2…
[i]”interesting that Lycoris pulls out of a conference thinking it’s too heavily influenced by a “distro” in Lindows that’s not in the best interest of the linux community. This is the same Lycoris that installs by default without a C compiler!”[i]
You DO realise that by default, RedHat doesn’t install GCC either ?
oh great.. lets compile everything. FFS. why cant you bunch of linux zealots pull your head out of your arse and see that companies like lycoris, lindows, xandros are trying to bring linux to the masses. and stupid comments that prevail in the linux community about, “oh, if you dont like it, fix it yourself”, “no package, so compile it”. this is 2003 not back in the 80s. The masses want a system that they can use out of the box. if all you’re going is manually editing configs, spending hours compiling stuff, you’re not using your computer . I want to get down to work, personal stuff annd not have to worry about BS like that.
BTW. i’m now using lycoris as my primary OS after moving from win98. Does everything i need with no fuss.
You very most obviously needn’t even be out of the Lycoris target market and still are in heavy need for a compiler – if EVERYTHING would exist in the form of RPM, then you wouldn’t, but that’s simply not the case
If EVERYTHING isn’t in RPM format, obviously Lycoris isn’t ready for their target market. But the very fact that you even bother searching for the driver sources show that you aren’t in Lycoris target market. Besides, if you can compile something on your own, you obviously can install the compiler.
Or is installing (IIRC) 2 RPMs just a bit wee too hard for you?
If you don’t take it from me, take it from Lycoris.org — there is not a single user that hit the forums at some point because he had to install the compiler for one reason or another.
Unless you haven’t noticed, Lycoris.org is more of a place where the developers get input from various geeks. In other words, it isn’t Lycoris’ targets market spot. The last I went there, most of the people there have experience with Linux prior to Lycoris. Is like saying Mandrake is for geeks mainly because of the Cooker.
That being a matter of fact, it is maximum stoopid not to include it and pretending it wouldn’t be needed is similarly stoopid.
And spelling stupid wrongly is equally as stupid (yeah, yeah I got the joke, but didn’t find it rather funny). Now, just say only 1% of the target market actually uses a compiler, wouldn’t it be unfair for the 99% of the target audience having to install something that they wouldn’t, in a long shot need?
There is simply no Linux that can live without it in the long run and even I have figured that one out.
Actually, if I didn’t like making a mess out of my installation on Mandrake, I wouldn’t need it too. And my hardware is not all that generic. So I’d say Lycoris is better off improving their driver support instead of lumping it on the users with a compiler.
BTW, the compiler is on CD3, not 2…
That’s what I wanted to say, but couldn’t be 100% sure because it was sometime ago when I tried Lycoris.
I wouldn’t use Red Hat as an example because after all they once shipped a compiler that couldn’t even compile the kernel…
Anyway, Mandrake too don’t install a compiler by default. The same with SuSE. The same with many other distributions I have tried before…..
Anyway, Mandrake too don’t install a compiler by default. The same with SuSE. The same with many other distributions I have tried before…..
Add Debian to that list. It looks like dissing a distro because it doesn’t install a compiler by default is kind of pointless since that would rule out like 90% of popular distributions.
I assume debian is a distro for newbies, since it doesn’t install gcc by default… I ma glad that it doesn’t, since I want gcc-3.2, which is not the default for woody iso.
This argument is indeed pointless.
anonymous said :
There is simply no Linux that can live without it ( the compiler ) in the long run and even I have figured that one out.
Thta for sure is more problematic. Let’s explain to a newbie what is a compiler
First thing I have to say is the first comment to this news was very tipical of someone who uses Mandrake.
Second, Lycoris is my main OS also, I use it and Windows98SE, if there was no Lycoris I would not use Linux at all! I have been running Lycoris Desktop/lx since Mar-2002 and still have not yet needed to use a compiler! Why would I? Ummmmm? If I need or want a application for Desktop/lx I go and ask someone in the Lycoris.org Community to make it for me and post it on the web site and / or tuxapps.com. Infact every time I have needed a program for Lycoris I have found that someone in the community has already made it for me. 🙂
The Lycoris community site is full of both geeks who make programs in RPM’s for desktop/lx and real noobies who are fresh to Linux and get help from the geeks there.
Anyway Mandrake is not a modile desktop OS, infact I would call it a very good example of what not to do when making a desktop OS for every day people.
I am not a geek and never will be, I have used Mandrake before I knew about Lycoris and I HATED it, it is UGLY and BUGY and it does NOT WORK very well. It was on my computer for one day before I formatted and back to Windows only. Then I found Lycoris and was saved from forgetting about Linux for good.
What else should I say here??
Did I tell you how much I hate Mandrake yet? Oh yeah I did, sorry…
Oh I would like to point out Ark Linux, it looks like its going to become a real good desktop OS. Oh and they have the same idea’s as Lycoris.
One CD install of OS without the development tools which come on an other CD if you require them.
My point with Ark is that other new linux distros are following in Lycoris foot-steps not Mandrakes.
Mandrake has failed and will continue to fail in the every day users mind. Mandrake will never become a mainsteam OS, It will always be for the geeks who want to spend more time getting something simple to work then doing real work on the computer and then going out to the real world outside. Get a life Mandrake user above. Your not Lycoris’s target market, and your not a Linux noobie.
Oh and I fully support Lycoris in withdrawing from the Lindows summit.
Now, please all flame me and explain to me how incorrect and stupid I am, and call me names too please 🙂
oh great.. lets compile everything. FFS. why cant you bunch of linux zealots pull your head out of your arse and see that companies like lycoris, lindows, xandros are trying to bring linux to the masses.
Strange, I had the impression Lindows was just marketing Lindows to the masses. Linux just happens to be the code they are using.
BTW When did the Linux desktop become the holy grail, where everything is excusable in order to dominate the current 4-5%??
I wonder what the bloodfest will look like when there is really something to fight over(or fight for?)
I really should pull my head out of my arse and wish for the day linux looks just like windows 🙂
Interesting comments – how well does lycoris play with laptops? I have tried SuSE, Debian and Corel in the past. This coment thread leads me to WANT to check out lycoris.
Anytime there is heated discussion about a distro – it seems that at least a few people have given it a once over..
I use recomendations / flame wars to guage interest in the distro. No flamers, no interest. Or so it seems…
This is a good example of a break in communication. This Robertson guy can’t seem to do anything without pissing people off. Or are we supposed to believe this is another marketing strategy?
Let’s look at what they the Lycoris users are defending.
After 18 mos of developement, they’ve hacked kde2.2 all the way up to kde22.214.171.124.2.2.
66 Beta’s and counting. (looks like 65 failures they did call one stable v46??).
Printing? has been non functional for the last 4 beta’s to most canon and hp users.
Oh ya, they got WalMart to sell microtel pc’s pre-installed with one of the broken beta’s.
Some kind of World Killer office pak. Looks a lot like OO with some hacked mircosoft look alike icons added.
Can you just see where all that pride comes from, and why all the fuss.
There’s a report about a desktop summit falling apart because of excessive self-interest causing name-calling and finger-pointing. In the forum discussing these events what do I find? More infantile self-interest, name-calling, and finger-pointing.I just can’t figure out why Linux isn’t making faster progress.
I certainly agree. But I think in spite of all the fighting, Linux will still make it on the desktop . . . eventually. But it won’t be because of name calling, and it won’t be because of brilliant technical minds and great visionaries. It will be because real businessmen realize there is money to be made in Linux.
Perens may be really bright, but he’s no salesman. Linux needs a salesman. Maybe one day someone will realize that. Maybe Lindows.com already does. But the shift in paradigm from a technical point of view to a marketing one is sometimes hard to make, so I would expect the in fighting to continue for some time. Growing pains.
I don’t understand this vitoral against Lycoris. Robertson has made some bold moves to get Lindows in the public eye, but this one he completely blew. His ideas was really a good one as Linux on the desktop has been such a hot topic. I don’t understand how Robertson could have thought that taking over the microphone would have any possible good result. It’s a real shame.
“Look Star Trek Boy, have you ever even kissed a girl?
Then shut up.”
Great niveau. I plead for a closed community. Only registered users should be able to post. No others. Users who post such things like above should get banned permanently without further warning. Well … I am dreaming… Sorry.
“I use recomendations / flame wars to guage interest in the distro. No flamers, no interest. Or so it seems…”
Sad that you see it so. Do humans have no better and more intelligent ways to express their interesst then beeing rude to others? Sorry I just can not accept flames as expressed interesst. I value one single interessting and intelligent comment a tausend times more valueable then all the flames on this planet.
… I’m really happy I don’t use Linux anymore.
Geez, they can’t even put this convention together without fighting like children … how pathetic. Aren’t they supposed to be on the same side?
They, the Linux community, are on the same side when it comes to promoting Linux on the desktop. Lindows apparently is not.
This is the exact kind of infighting which will continue to cripple Linux from ever being accepted. The “masses” see this sort of thing and just go elsewhere. To either Mac or Windows. I can’t say that I blame them either. When the Linux community grows up and stops flaming each other things will change. Sadly I don’t ever see this happening since every last distro wants to be the winner.
I seriously doubt any companies that are infighting ie. Lindows, Lycoris will really keep Linux from being accepted by the Masses. If it does affect anything it affects their standing in the community. There are several distros ready for the desktop. SuSE and Mandrake that seems to be their thing. I dont see it killing Linux’s chances at desktop acceptance, I really dont think infighting is coming from Lycoris. They just made the statement that they will not be attending the Desktop Summit and i agree since Lindows has decided that they want to promote their rhetoric and their views and no views from the competitors, then yes it is Lindows controlled and should be called the Lindows Desktop Summit. I dont really consider Lindows to be a real distro anyway and I consider their click-n-run initiative to be a joke. I have said it once I will say it again. Micheal Robertson wants to be a Bill Gates, no more no less. He seems to get as much bad press as Bill does.
Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear – linux is ready for the desktop – the community obviously isn’t.