Microsoft is once again planning to alter the way its Start Screen works in Windows 8.1 Update 1. While the software giant originally released Windows 8.1 last year with an option to bypass the “Metro” interface at boot, sources familiar with Microsoft’s plans have revealed to The Verge that the upcoming “Update 1” for Windows 8.1 will enable this by default. Like many other changes in Update 1, we’re told the reason for the reversal is to improve the OS for keyboard and mouse users.
Wow, a touch interface does not work with a mouse and keyboard. Who saw that coming.
I expect photos of many people eating crow.
or just use linux and be in control of your own computer
Sooo much better, more stable, and no one tells me how to use it.
I was actually about to argue the “stability” part; after all, hasn’t Microsoft finally got the stability under control with the NT line?
I *thought* they did, based on my previous latest experiences with the OS (later versions of XP, 7). But then I remembered my new laptop, which I honestly forgot about the Windows side, because I never use it: ever since the 8.1 update, I have to be careful how quickly I try to take control and try to use it after logging in, because the damn thing will become unresponsive. And before that, blame it on third-party drivers or whatever (I don’t care… it’s still Windows), but I had some pretty bad crashes that lead to some glorified blue screens saying that Windows can’t boot.
So, yes… ironically in the end I still have to fully agree with you… as I type this in openSUSE on my new laptop. It’s funny how some things just NEVER change. It’s really just the same crusty old OS with a shiny new interface forced onto it and the same old issues that I thought were fixed in later XP service packs, re-broken in Vista, and then (I *thought*) fixed again in Windows 7.
Those issues never get “fixed” because they’re all the same underlying issue. Microsoft keeps the same binary driver API for years at a time, and yet these idiot hardware companies seem to forget how to write stable drivers every few years when the API changes.
More disturbing is that my main remaining technical problem:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-8.1-freezing-lockup-update…
…has been known about since at least November of last year, I first came across it in December when I set up the laptop, and it is almost February now… and as far as I know, there is no guaranteed “cure.” There is no “official” fix that I could find or even acknowledgment from Microsoft for that matter, and if Windows Update is supposed to take care of it, then it sure as hell ain’t doing its job.
All I can find are: “try uninstalling and reinstalling various hardware drivers” (no thanks, my current OS is running just fine, 8.1 is not worth that hassle for probably nothing…) or “disable fast start” (which sounds worthy of at least giving a try, I was leery about the “feature” to begin with actually, wouldn’t surprise me if it’s the problem since once the system has been up for 3 minutes and running fine chances are it won’t lock up until next boot).
I fixed what I believe were the main hardware driver-related issues (system failing to come out of sleep mode after updating to 8.1 and requiring a hard shutdown/reboot as a result of bad graphics drivers and something else IIRC).
Edited 2014-01-31 03:42 UTC
I got a Vaio with Windows 8 last year, after a few weeks, windows 8 decided to stop booting. Recovery failed and ended up in recovery not working.
I thought it was faulty hardware, so i did mem and disk check from an ubuntu livecd but found nothing. Frustrated of not being able to reinstall Windows, I installed Ubuntu, which worked absolutely flawlessly for months.
To my surprise, the hardware worked much better under linux. Even the Wifi adapter, which lost connection every hour or two uner Windows did fine on Ubuntu.
But I still needed Windows for many things, so I found out that downloading the official OEM ISO of my windows version and installing it worked because the serial is in the bios now. Why doesn’t Microsoft make this OEM available? Beats me.
Installed Windows 8 back and the official Vaio driver package, made sure to disable secureboot so it behaved well with Ubuntu, then upgraded to Windows 8.1. After a few days, 8.1 decided to stop working, so went back to Ubuntu.
So, whathever, I’ve simply never seen Windows fail so much on new hardware. I just can’t believe that Ubuntu is working better.
Edited 2014-01-31 04:00 UTC
Yeah… here I have no choice but to rely on Wi-Fi (the router is in the basement, I am in the attic…), and while I haven’t been in Windows long enough to tell how its wireless performance is in comparison to openSUSE’s, I can say one thing: Windows f***ing LIES about the connection/signal quality. Linux (I use the i3bar in the i3 window manager) typically tells me anywhere from 50-60% signal strength, but sometimes reaches the low-40s percentages due to interference, at which point the connection starts dropping and speed is reduced. Reboot into Windows, and the damn OS keeps telling me that I’ve got “max” signal strength (five or six bars or whatever), while refusing to let me browse web pages and telling me “Limited Connectivity”.
BTW I just disabled the “Fast Start” option in Windows, did a few test reboots to see if it would stop responding again, and the third time was the charm. It did, in fact, lock up while attempting to log in on the third reboot (didn’t even get to the “Start” screen), so it’s back to Linux, where things just work without hassle. Microsoft better do more than hide Metro by default in Win8.1u1: they better fix their buggy software so the damn operating system actually reliably boots for once! This is outright ridiculous. Is this what we get with their new ultra-fast release cycle? Even-buggier-than-usual junk?
Edited 2014-01-31 04:51 UTC
I can’t believe it either.
Maybe that’s driver related and if so don’t expect MS to fix it. It could also be the cause of a faulty BIOS with errors that MS doesn’t detect and patch (they do have some level of patching as non-compliant drivers/BIOS code are all to common)…
Stable? Yeah maybe if you never update the thing, or do you not count all those ‘update foo broke my drivers” that is so common that it might as well be listed in the changelog?
I own and run a PC shop and believe me if Linux wasn’t such a mess? I’d be all over it as MSFT does NOT treat system builders well AT ALL but the simple fact of the matter is as long as Linus Torvalds runs the show it will never get any better because he refuses to get rid of “his” driver model which is beyond ancient. If MSFT used VXDs and .INI for drivers you’d laugh, right? Well Torvalds based his on 1970s Unix, tech a full decade BEHIND the VXD and .INI, so far behind that those would be technologically superior!
As for TFA, until they replace that stupid start button with an actual menu? Not interested. if you want your programs splattered across some big giant cellphone screen that is fine, i have easily a hundred programs installed, i don’t want the “start screen” mess. just give me a simple start menu where I can quickly access the programs list without interrupting my work and I’ll be happy. Sadly from the looks of things all they have done is make desktop the default while still keeping the “start button” that sends you back to the Xbox screen.
Linux uses UNIX-based approaches, which are old, and therefore are inferior? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty
Just because Microsoft like to jump-ship with technologies every few years doesn’t mean it’s the only way to do things.
And others things are just old and shit.
OK I’ll bite – you have a point about the lack of a stable driver API, but please specify for me other than this what you consider “inferior” about the Linux driver model?
That is the big problem, always will be. Always has been.
It is a problem yes – only for hardware that is found to be unsupported however. What I take issue with is the original commenter’s comparison with the (largely 16-bit) VxD concept as proof that Linux kernel modules are inferior in implementation. The facts as I see them just don’t support this conclusion in any objective way.
IT is a big problem because companies don’t want to open source or can open source everything. Pretending that isn’t a problem isn’t helpful.
For example,
http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~weise/unix-haters.html
🙂
And here we go again:
“The Unix Hater’s Handbook, Reconsidered”.
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=538
But, yeah, lets pretend time has no effect on things.
Having been a developer targeting
– Xenix
– DG/UX
– HP-UX
– Solaris
– Aix
– FreeBSD
– Linux variants since 1995
I guess I do know a thing or two about UNIX.
And what does it change the fact that *bsd, linux and the tools we use on them have progressed a lot? (and as a matter of fact also MS systems)
The criticism and humor on that book are caustic, some parts approaching disgruntled rant. Written around 94 it is a good reading, especially if you read the linked ESR answer and appreciate computer systems history and evolution but it is also dated, and as a developer you are very aware of it as so do I.
For whoever has the time, the illustrations are a plus and it is freely downloaded.
The Linux driver model is based on the 70’s unix driver model about as much as MSFT’s current driver model is based on the VXD and INI model. That is to say, yes, to a tiny extent.
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s from the 70’s.
If only I could run all my games on it and if GIMP got an UI that didn’t make me suicidal after switching from photoshop and if fonts didn’t look like ass anytime I try to run an app with different widget kit then my DE of choice (looking at you, netbeans) and… you get the picture.
“just use linux” is not a solution to all problems.
Neither is “just use Windows” or “just use OS X”. Then again, maybe it is to some.
Gimpshop? Afaik it works very well, and if you can stand the Photoshop UI you would probably do very well with gimpshop. It is still gimp, but the ui is reworked to suit switchers from the Adobe Suite.
Gimpshop was abandoned ages ago (2007), but in the meantime GIMP changed its interface *a lot*, these days GIMP single window mode looks more like Photoshop than Gimpshop ever did.
My experiences with Linux have been far from stable. From Ubuntu losing track of it’s graphics drivers, to GRUB losing where the kernel is, i’ve had nothing but issues with Linux.
Mac, and Windows, IMHO, are much more stable.
In your honest opinion and almost everyone else’s honest opinion. It’s basically a fact that Windows and OS X are far more stable than Linux ever was and ever will be.
It’s no coincidence that neither of the most stable, easy to use operating systems in the world, aren’t free, neither by most people’s definition or the annoying anti-real-freedom RMS’s definition.
LOL yeah sure.
The only advantage windows got to linux is that driver quality is generally better. And thats just because HW vendors dont care too much about linux yet, but that is changing.
Linux kick windowsass in just about every thinkable way.
It’s an objective fact. I’m not saying Linux isn’t better at some things. But the pros rarely, rarely outweigh the cons. The only major thing Linux has going for it is the cool factor, but that wears off real quick unless you’ve got a lot of free time on your hands and enjoy having to fix things being broken left and right or spending hours trying to figure out how to tweak this or that when in Windows it’s just a few clicks away.
The only real major con with Windows is it costs money (and 8’s changes suck, but 7 is being supported for years and years to come and 9 will probably fix 8’s stupidity). But time is money. I would honestly happily pay 5x what Windows costs today to not have to use Linux. Again, this is coming from someone who was obsessed over Linux and tried to get people to use it for years and years until I finally realized I was just lying to myself and basically just a hipster.
Windows just works. Does it have its problems? Yes. Is it perfect? No. What is? But it’s the closest to being perfect that we have today. OS X comes in second. Linux is way, way, way down the list.
And BTW, people have been saying “but that is changing” for years and years and years. It’s simply not true. Why would they care about an OS that very few people use because it’s so flawed and sucks on the desktop?
If it’s better or not depends on what your use-case is.
Can we please stop making this argument? It hasn’t been accurate for a long time. There’s plenty of reasons to use Linux but this isn’t one of them.
No-one tells you how to use Windows either. Oh, you mean you can’t use whatever GUI you want? Sure, but that’s no different from how you can’t change how your stereo or tv or car’s interface was designed.
You can still use them however you want.
But it’s sad how upvoted that troll post was… (and imagine somebody coming into Linux thread with “just use Windows”)
BTW, there are alternative shells for Windows (though their scene has mostly died out).
Ah, so you’re not running Gnome 3, I presume.
Know how I can tell you’re a Linux fanboy? Because back when I exclusively used Linux for 5 years, I convinced myself, and tried to convince others, the exact same thing.
The truth is, it’s not true. The only thing Linux is truly better at is being cheaper (monetary wise). Also it’s probably a better choice for running a web server.
As a desktop? It sucks. Things that take seconds to modify or setup in Windows take minutes in Linux if you’re lucky. But usually the solution requires spending time researching on Google. I’m not even going to go further here because it would take too much time to list all of the stupid, annoying stuff you have to go through when you use Linux.
More stable? That’s a joke too. I can’t tell you how many stability-related issues I had with Linux. This happened with several distros, several kernels, etc.
Windows 7, on the other hand, is heavenly. Stable. Fast. I am definitely in control of my own computer. The convenience of the Windows platform. And so on.
Edited 2014-01-31 20:37 UTC
Sorry to dissappoint you, you are NOT in control of your Windows 7 system. You are only in control as far as MS allows you to be and no more.
Nanny MS won’t let you do things that are commonplace in the Unix/Linux world. That is a fact of life so just accept it and get on with it.
Other than that, I agree with you. Win 7 is pretty stable. So is Server 2008 R2. Rock solid on kit that Server 2012 just turns its nose up and dies.
The same could be said for anything, including Linux/Unix.
Fact is, I’ve never not been able to do what I want in Windows. Same goes for most people out there. You’re making it seem like Microsoft places so many restrictions on Windows you basically can’t do or control anything but that’s not true at all.
So I can’t recompile the Windows kernel. So I can’t replace the Windows desktop environment GUI and choose between the horrendous alternative of Gnome or the horrendous alternative of KDE. I don’t care. I don’t want to do either, and I’ll happily trade those “drawbacks” for a system and OS that’s far more stable and far, far, far more suited for the desktop.
I’d much rather have 90% control over a system that just works, over 99.9% control over a system that needs me to have all that control so I can constantly be fixing all of the problems that occur with it.
Edited 2014-02-01 20:05 UTC
Sadly even Linux is falling prey to this spastic touch centric thinking.
I hate to disagree with you on the stability part. I really like Linux, in fact, all my machines at work run Linux exclusively and I do embedded Linux development for a living.
But when it comes to Desktop OS for daily use, I hate to say that from my experience Windows is definitely more stable (unless you have faulty hardware or crappy drivers).
At home, I have numerous machines and I spend probably 80% of the time solving issues with my Linux machines, whereas the Windows installations usually cause no maintenance work. I do dual-boot on all machines, as it’s difficult to explain to my wife how she can recover from the various glitches on the different machines (black screens, frozen UIs, task bars randomly disappearing, … you name it). So she usually just uses Windows.
As I have less time maintaining the Linux installations I find my self using Windows more often at home. I don’t spend much time on Computers at home anymore, and when I do I find myself being annoyed by frequently having to solve the various issues, especially after upgrading packages etc…
Hang on, just putting on my shocked face. Wait a moment. No seriously, I got this…nearly there….
“Wow, a touch interface does not work with a mouse and keyboard. Who saw that coming.”
I kind of disagree, Metro does work, but people don’t like it. It’s two different things.
People can use Windows 8.1, it’s not difficult, but it is distracting, and comes with a learning curve that isn’t really worth the price.
Edited 2014-01-31 00:10 UTC
I think it’s a bit of both. Metro is fine at being Metro, and if you remember, that was the original plan, that Metro would be the main interface on Windows 8, with a stripped-down version of the traditional desktop as a legacy thing for compatibility. Indeed, that’s pretty much you get when running on tablets, minus the legacy desktop.
The problem was that in the real world, nobody was interested in using the new UI on their desktops and laptops, and wanted to stick with the “legacy” one. And as a result, Microsoft delivered an OS where users were forced to keep switching between two fundamentally different desktop shells in order to use their computers.
Not hard to see why that’s proven less than successful.
Edited 2014-01-31 01:01 UTC
Which is kind of a problem, since the legacy one was a half-hearted attempt to copy the original Mac, and has grown into a clusterf**k of framework on top of framework, and probably held together at this point by virtual duct tape. I was kind of hoping that Metro would grow and improve into being usable on a desktop so we could say goodbye to Win32 forever. But doesn’t look like that’s going to happen.
And as for the guy who mentioned Linux as an alternative, I’d rather tongue the sweaty asshole of a Kenyan marathon runner
I’d switch to OSX first.
Microsoft apparently was assuming faster rate of PC to tablets conversion – they seemed to believe that by the time Windows 8 touchscreens would be dominant on laptops, so that Microsoft would get its hold of tablet market from the touch laptops side. At the mean time the touchscreen laptops didn’t really go mainstream yet, and quite some users still prefer to alter between their touch-only tablets and mouse-only PCs. Microsoft’s bet just didn’t pay off, and they are slowly stepping back now in time to catch up with users’ upgrade cycles.
While I’m normally critical of Microsoft, the way they handled this operation – their takeover of tablet market they were late for – was indeed nice. Sure, they failed and received quite some flack, but ultimately they’ve only missed 1.5 years and still have Windows 8 adoption figures slowly climbing.
Microsoft didn’t mistakenly saddle their entire mouse & keyboard user base with an ill-suited interface assuming those users wouldn’t exist.
No, Microsoft purposefully poisoned Windows with a touch oriented interface to get us familiar with it to try and sell Windows Mobile and get a piece of the tens of billions a year that Apple is pulling in right now from their iOS devices.
They gambled that their customers would grow to like their new UI and want it on all their other devices. As it turns out though, when people hate your UI on their laptop/desktop, it doesn’t do all that much to convince them they want it on their other devices and they’re coming up with terrible marketshare everywhere Metro has appeared.
I’m also not sure what alternate universe you are living in that where Microsoft has taken over any markets lately. This is Balmer’s Microsoft, and it’s a trainwreck.
Microsoft’s versions – that they expected convergence between laptops and tablets with ASUS Transformer and similar devices replacing laptops – makes more sense then yours. I’m pretty sure this would have been the case if Microsoft succeeded in pushing hardware vendors.
Sorry, I misconstructed my phrase. I wanted to say that Microsoft were planning to take over tablet market after failing to make their presence back when it was easy.
Edited 2014-02-01 13:47 UTC
I tend to disagree. I’ve worked in a project inside HP that did used touchscreen, and one request from start was that the user must be able to use the same gestures from touch with mouse, so the user was able to click and hold mouse button in the background and move the background (think on Android multiple screens) moving the mouse.
Now just try doing that on Metro. Didn’t work, right? You need to use the scrollbar on button of the screen. This is so failed I can’t express very well…
Actually the mousewheel will do the horizontal scrolling for you as well.
Somehow my 80-year old father is navigating 8.1 just fine with a mouse. Go figure. He was recently updated from Windows XP.
Maybe my dad should give some of you lessons on how to navigate without touch.
Some users are not expecting much from their machines and they simply adapt to what is given to them, even if it is a regression from the previous incarnation.
There is also a category of users who measure the new stuff against the old stuff and don’t take kindly to something that is not an improvement over the old stuff.
Metro does what it needs to do. It launches and switches between programs. The only problem Metro has, is that it wasn’t the first interface on the block. To exacerbate things, the old stuff is fully mature and highly tuned to mouse+keyboard input. So Metro comes off as inferior to the previous desktop interface.
work yes, but its terribly hard to be productive with a mouse/keyboard and metro 😉
and people who can’t use computers.. they use tablets anyway. so they didn’t do their homework.
whoever argued that metro would make people use pc instead of tablets was a fool – and thats being polite. its not like if we didn’t know that 5 years ago, before they even thought of this…
Edited 2014-01-31 03:51 UTC
Best i can tell, most people compute by rote repetition.
This is why you see all those “i could swap program X for program Y if only they put menu entry Z in the same place!”.
MS Office introducing the Ribbon UI seemed to do more for the install base of open-/libre-office than anything said office suits had ever done.
Have any sources for that claim?
“Totally didn’t see this coming!”
I will now think about installing Windows 8, you know if the original reason I wasn´t on Windows* doesn´t rear it´s ugly ahead again.
*sudden onset poverty
Even bringing back the traditional Start Menu isn’t likely to bring me back to Windows – I abandoned it because it’s becoming more and more of a pain to use without tying everything to a Live account. The Stat Screen was inconsequential.
I like my Live.com mail, but I no longer want my computer tied to it.
Fix that, Microsoft (Or, at the very least, stop going farther in that direction), and maybe I’ll go back.
So just like MOST consumer OS’s these days. You have to run pretty far these days to get to an OS which DOESN’T integrate online accounts from someone or other. KDE is the only major desktop that I can think of that doesn’t want you to integrate services and I may still be wrong about that as I haven’t used KDE much in the last year
You don’t need you tie your live account to Windows 8 or 8.1. That has never been true. You can associate a local account with your live account, or just use the live account, or just use the local account.
This is one of the biggest fallacies of Windows 8, and I have no idea where it comes from.
Edited 2014-01-31 13:14 UTC
I know you don’t have to, but it’s a pain, because everything now wants a live account, and if you want to use it without a live account, the button you need to press is in a different location at a different step in the setup process every time.
Install Windows 8, and it’s at one part of the account setup process. Install the 8.1 update, and it’s different text (which is even less clear on what it means) at a different spot of the install process.
Getting the 8.1 update without the live account is a pain, too.
I used to be cool with that – it was kinda nice being so linked up. There are a lot of conveniences.
Then my mother got her email account hacked, and I started thinking, what would happen if my Live.com account got hacked and the password changed? I wouldn’t be able to use my computer. At the same time, Microsoft looks like it’s moving more and more to having a Live account required for several tasks.
Nope.
Live Account – The ‘Store’.
This are just two more reasons Windows
is no more an educative platform
:/
How does the existence of Windows Store or MS Live! – accounts somehow make Windows not “an educative platform” if it was that in the previous Windows-version? Neither the Store or the Live! – accounts in any way or form prevent people from using Windows to learn and study, nor do either one of them really change how you use Windows as wrt. to Windows 7, for example. Metro does try to change how one uses Windows, but alas, that’s not what you complained about.
No, it just sounds you want to bash Windows/Microsoft and just wrote whatever excuse you could come up with.
You could always install software the traditional way. The only reason you need the store is if you run Metro apps, and really, you need a Google Account to access the Play Store, and you need an Apple account to access the Apple store, why is MS requiring the same thing (to manage purchases, and access to services) make it any less of an “educative platform” (whatever that means?)
> Wow, a touch interface does not work with a mouse and keyboard. Who saw that coming.
Or Microsoft could fix it. Instead of just defaulting to Boot to Desktop. Metro isn’t exclusively mobile UI.
Just make the apps the size they need to be for a mouse. Let the user run as much apps resized on the same screen as the user wants. Make a startmenu where they can quickly find their apps(of course this will be a compact menu).
We could call it Vista.
The top bar allowing you to close or minimise is a great step.
I just had a call about being unable to close xbox music because they were trying to listen to a voicemail. For the great unwashed metro really doesn’t give very good indicators on how to manage running application windows when they’ve spent years clicking on the x in the corner to close.
Boot to desktop is fine; I set that policy by default here but metro apps need to shot into space. They just need to accept that nobody cares about metro unless it can be integrated into the desktop correctly.
Personal opinions are worth what they are worth, but nevertheless, here is mine.
It’s some time now I work in IT and I’ve used more or less everything that MS has released since windows 3.1 and NT3.51. There have been many reasons to complain about MS in the past and there are still some today, but most of what I hear since Win7 is nothing more than a Pavolvian rant against MS.
First: Stability… Windows 7 and more have become rock solid… Be honest. How many BSODs did you have on these Windows versions without tweaking the system to death??? I suspect this number to be very low except if related to defective hardware.
Second: Security… Windows has always been the target for every possible security attack. This has forced MS to work as well on the security context in which the user work which now is much closer to what’s used in Linux as well as the inherent kernel security. It’s much more complicated to exploit a loophole in a well secured Windows box than it is on MacOS or even most Nuxs (even for an “out of the box systemâ€). Since Vista and the introduction of the UAC Windows has become a really safe place. There are still morons that disable the UAC by default as there are Nux users who always work as root. Stupidity is universal and no technology can totally avoid that.
Third: Driver compatibility… On this one there is just no discussion possible… For one device that won’t work on Windows you have hundreds that won’t work on (insert OS you want here). It has always been a pain (and sometimes impossible) to make every single device work on my hardware when I used Nux instead of Windows. Most problems I had were with WLAN, printers and Video. I’m aware that problems are almost always caused by lack of support by the hardware manufacturer but in the end the result is the same. A big headache
Fourth: Worth for the money… This one is trickier as it depends on what you do and how much time you need to set it up on your box. On the server side Linux has still an important place but there are 2 technologies where MS has dramatically improved its serves. Hyper-V and Storage Space. These could be game changers for virtualization and scale out storage. For the rest, no major change.
Fifth: Manageability… Just one word (ok… three) GPO
The last is a more personal comment about Metro. I had to work with it and hated it from the first second. It’s not bad for tablets or phones (I won’t talk about the lack of Metro apps) but is really a pain on the desktop. I really tried to get used to it but after a few days I gave up and installed a start menu replacement. For those who really used Windows 8 (Like I did), the 8.1 update has really brought a lot of improvements. The return of the start button (even if very different from what we had in 7) is really a blessing. The tweaks made to the metro interface itself and the integration of some functionalities that always relied on external software (Fingerprints or GSM) is really nice. I’m still not a fan of Metro on the desktop (far away from it) but it has become much better than the complete failure it was with 8.0. There is still one thing that won’t get better over time and that I deeply hate… It’s the way MS tries to tie everything to a MS account. It becomes sometimes really tricky to use some functionalities without an MS account.
Edit: Typo corrected
Edited 2014-01-31 06:20 UTC
GPO?
Are you kidding?
How does using GPO have any relevance at all to a non locked down business user aka, the man/woman in the street?
Do they even care avout GPO’s? Actually do they know or even care that they exist? No they don’t.
If you think that GPS are the be-all-and-end-all then I really feel sorry for you and how hard it must be to live and work in the Microsoft Abbey Cloisters preaching this [redacted].
Yeah, I’m bitter because a stupid GPO rolled out by a newly certified MCSE idiot stopped a complete factory complex from working for more than a day.
We were lucky that most of the really critical systems run Unix or Linux and didn’t get infected but the GPO meant that nothing could move around the plant.
Calm down a bit. I just gave my opionion… If you don’t agree we can discuss.
I don’t remember that I’ve restricted my comments to home users. GPOs indeed arn’t very usefull to homeusers as are every IT Asset Management tool, but in enterprise GPOs are vital.
You had a problem with a guy who missconfigured a GPO? Ok… That’s bad… Really. But the problem is not due to the technology of GPOs itself. It’s due the guy who missconfigured it and deployed it without testing.
Please.. Tell me how you would manage an IT infrastructure of thousands or even hundreds of workplaces without GPOs (or an army of helpdesk workers). There is no usable equivalent in the Mac or Nux world. It’s as simple as that.
O rly?
Have you heard of puppet?
And OD on mac?
Edited 2014-01-31 08:07 UTC
Yes I’ve heard of that and BTW, I’ve used Puppet.
It’s lightyears away from GPOs and what you can do with them.
Let me return the question. Have you allready used GPOs? I mean in a real production environment?
You can use puppet to achieve pretty much anything you can do with a GPO on the desktop. Granted, it’s not all preconfigured as it is with windows.
OD on mac is built in and can do everything a GPO can, period.
And yes, i do use GPOs to manage windows machines.
Well… That’s a big plus of using GPOs. You don’t really NEED them. You could do what you want through scripts and registry tweeks. But it’s much more convenient in a (as you say) preconfigured environement.
Not later than yesterday I replaced an over 10’000 lines script with 3 hours work in a GPO.
You can’t be serious… Even if I never used myself Open Directory I’ve seen it used in some environments.
You can manage accounts, profile folders and other basic stuff but most of the time Mac OSX specific admxs (That are quiet expensive BTW) are implemented in a real AD to be able to manage those systems correctly.
If you say it…
First of all. OD CAN do all of the things you can do with GPOs, and more. Look into managed preferences.
Furthermore, who said anything about scripts? All relevant settings on linux machines are stored in RCs and dotfiles.
And as for things not being preconfigured … well … In most cases, i consider this an advantage. All that is needed is docs, knowhow and time.
Somehow, i get the impression i’m talking to a point and click “admin”.
I think we’ll agree on the fact we disagree on that… But hey. It’s you’re right.
I spoke about scripts explaining GPOs are not mandatory and that all they do could be done by scripts. It was a way to show that preconfigured stuff is sometimes just convenient.
Who said that when you use GPO’s you can no longer dig in the roots of a system? If a setting isn’t included “out of the box” in a GPO you can set the according registry (By GPO is once again most convenient way). If it require complex tasks you build the appropriate script. It’s not being a point and click admin… It’s much more using the right tool for the right stuff. Personal preferences are not relevant here.
If people accept to pay you to live out your passion it’s wunderful. I’m really happy for you. But the people who pay me want results at the end of the day. Things must work quickly and without errors. The keyword there is time…
The worst thing when I have to go to a customer is when his infrastructure has been built up by a whatever fanboy (MS / Apple / Nux). You can be sure that the solutions that have been adopted are just crap.
Instead of actually coming up with facts, you dismiss my points and agree to disagree … fine.
Not only do my customers pay me, but i generally save tens of thousands in ridiculous license fees.
You are being incredibly short-sighted with your remarks.
Time … ah yes … time.
The time it costs to fix broken exchange/IIS/AD/MSSQL/whatever. Time well spent, right?
If our solutions are so “crappy”, then why does most of the internet run on them?
Yes, exactly… Does it makes sens to list up the thousands of settings each technology is able to manage (or not) in a stupid pissing contest? I leave that to the fanboy you seem to be.
License costs for the usage of a GPO? Ok… Funny. Stupid but funny.
People I work for don’t share your opinion. And these people represent quite big entities. I’m just pragmatic, not a brain dead zealot for technology X or Y.
If there is one short-sighted view it’s this one:
Don’t use the solution I use –> You’re stupid
Use an Industry standard –> You’re stupid
You take as fact that using a well built solution makes it automatically a limiting solution. That pushing configurations through GPO are not as safe or efficient as by hand-written procedures. Ok… There’s not much to add to this soooo intelligent comment.
Oh right… I forgot that the whole industry only uses webservers (Where Nux is well implemented). Or do you want me to use Puppy in a 100% MS infrastructure?
P.S: Good continuation with someone else. For me our “conversation” is finished.
Edited 2014-01-31 16:01 UTC
Okay … that’s again not really addressing the issue, but whatever.
Stupid but funny is an accurate description of the way this convo is going.
I save them money by not having to buy into MS’s licensing hell.
I work for governments, banking industry, nuclear industry, automotive industry, etc.
NONE of them are stupid enough to adopt your “perfect” solution for the things that actually matter.
So what was this rant about then? Right, i’m not using windows and GPOs, so i must be stupid?
Who said anything about “hand-written procedures”? The mere fact that you say this REALLY shows that you don’t know what you are talking about.
LOL.
I love this, i named you ONE example (the internet), and IMMEDIATELY you have to capitulate.
In fact, this very website runs on an *UX machine, running apache, but i bet that’s not even relevant to you … right?
Whatever.
Why are you even on this site anyway? Read the title. It’s called OSnews. Why do you come here?
Edited 2014-01-31 18:19 UTC
I’d use one of Chef, Puppet, CFEngine, Salt or possibly even Ansible.
Stuff like Chef & Puppet are far more flexible and powerful than GPOs.
The keyword here is usable. Or maybe I should have said usable in a convenient way. Looks like I’ve offended some people with that.
These tools are powerful it’s true. You can dig quiet deeply in system configurations but what’s about the time you need for that?
As another guy here has said. A lot is preformatted in GPOs. That’s fine and good but that doesn’t restrict you to those preconfigured settings. When you want to setup something that isn’t covered by GPOs and/or additional ADMX files (And that doesn’t leave a lot) you can still do whatever you want with direct registry tweaks or scripts
Please tell me one single thing you weren’t able to setup through:
– An “out of the box” GPO setting (with or without additional ADMX)
– A registry key (Deployed by GPO)
– A startup/logon/logoff/shutdown script (Also called by GPO)
Is it? O.K. I didn’t realise that “usability” was a major concern for a systems administrator. I’ve certainly never met one who cared about usability at the expense of flexibility, but I guess your mileage may vary.
A lot of pre-written manifests/cookbooks/stacks/script are available for the various configuration management tools I mentioned, too.
Right, which is directly comparable to the stuff you can do with Chef or Puppet. Hell I can run Ruby directly on the host I’m configuring and break out from there to all sorts of Gems if I want to.
I never said I wasn’t able to do so, but lets not pretend that mucking about with ADMX’s is simple (or for that matter, creating your own), or that (to pick an example) any of those incredibly simple things is in any way comparable to a full set of Chef Roles & Cookbooks that take a bare Ubuntu Server install and configure it was a complete and running OpenStack Nova compute server complete with Quantum support. And then does that across 1000 servers at the same time.
Just sayin’
It is… If not that means you’re a masochist. If the exact same thing can be done with one click or with tinkering around 2 hours I chose the “one click”.
Neither do I. I prefer to choose a convenient method when it’s available… When not… Then let’s go the hard way.
Well… Looks like you sometimes also chose “prewritten” stuff instead of the flexibility of fully handmade configuration
The problem with these pre-written manifests/cookbooks/stacks/script is that these are external tools (mostly). You must double-check everything before you can use them. That’s still quicker than writing them yourself but isn’t exactly funny.
Sure… And that’s good so. But for me this kind of solution is to be used only if nothing else is left. Scripts can be very dangerous. It’s much easier to make a mistake while changing a script than unticking a checkbox.
Adding official ADMX files to an AD is really easy. If you have never done that simply try once. Creating ADMX files is much more complicated. That’s true… But except in very specific cases i’ll never try to make my own ADMX files. What isn’t covered with available ADMX files is done through scripting.
As I already said. That doesn’t let a lot left.
External tools? Wut? Some might use external tools but most just use the functionality of the framework.
It’s pretty obvious that you have very little experience with the tools Vanders is talking about.
I didn’t add the statement from the tech that deployed the GPO.
‘But it worked where I was working last month’.
I certainly don’t have to manage networks of 100 users let alone thousands. I am just far too frequently on the receiving end of GPO’s that totally mess up the systems I am responsible for.
Imagine the case where you have a system that has been running for months and suddenly it goes into meltdown and production stops dead. What do YOU do then?
Yeah, I’m bitter because the dorks that craft the GPO’s seem to be immune from retribution. Escalate the problem to their management and suddenly all your access has been revoked. Am I dreaming? Nope it happened to one system I worked on in Texas.
I would probably be very upset/angry/disapointed
That’s really bad. I understand your frustration. But once again, this has nothing to do with the technology itself but with those who implement it.
Would you design new breaks for a car and go into mass production without even testing it? Let the users (sorry drivers) test it.
Just like how it is incorrect to say that Windows is unstable so is it incorrect to say that Linux lacks drivers. It’s just not true anymore
5 words:
Puppet, CFEngine, Chef, Ansible, SaltStack
All of these are just as good as GPO and better than GPO for some things.
While it’s definitely not Linux’s fault but rather the hardware manufacturer’s, I do find myself struggling to get certain hardware to work in Linux, quite frequently. Mostly due to the lack of support from the manufacturer, of course. But that doesn’t help me, I’m the one who has to spend hours/days fiddling with it (sometimes I give up) whereas it works in Windows on the same box with just a few clicks. Yes, Linux has much better driver support now than it used to have, but as long as there’s so many hardware manufacturers that poorly support Linux, or not support it at all, there’s always going to be major headaches…
Good, now add a proper Start Menu.
And get rid of this ugly, boring “flat design” and you are back at Windows 7.
By popular demand…
No need to. Just install Classic Shell:
http://www.classicshell.net/
Nope:
– Installing software from some arbitrary location is a security nightmare.
– You might not even allowed to due to lacking permissions (see GPO discussion above).
If I had some malicious intent I would try to pose as classicshell.net and deliver some “special” binary.
haha
ha
… ok that was very immature.
The trolls won.
That was obvious from the start. MS is just trolling us with Win8.
I still haven’t had one major problem with the interface and I been using it since the first previews.
Sample size=1
Stop being a dick. I like the new interface and as far as I am concerned it is whining over nothing.
I think the problem is with how the people in general are these days compared to before.
These days people don’t have the patience to learn anything new. They want to be able to figure it out in 2 seconds and it they can’t they scream and shout like a crime against humanity has taken place.
For some it may be true. My anecdotal evidence shows that even people who are willing to play around with linux distros and different GUIs/DEs don’t like the way Windows 8 work.
I don’t think we should be looking for absolute reasons. Everyone that detests Windows 8 has a valid reason for it.
I think it would be a very nice gesture from Microsoft to allow automatic downgrading for non “business” versions of Windows 8 as well.
Edited 2014-01-31 10:12 UTC
I agree that Windows 8 has room for improvement and it isn’t a slik experience so far.
But I think there’s perhaps a difference between playing with it and working full-time.
When I use Windows 8 I can spend most, if not all, time in classic desktop mode and it works just like, well, Windows.
If you play you’ll probably switch a lot between Metro and Classic, but also use a number of useless Metro applications. Then you get a different experience than when you really work with it.
Yes, but more than likely people who are willing to play around with Linux distros like Linux regardless and are more likely to hate Windows regardless.
True. But still many of them are using Windows 7 and think it is a great product.
Anyway, we are discussing tastes. There is no end to such discussions.
One thing is clear though. As the numbers show Windows 8 is not doing as planned and Microsoft is trying to correct some mistakes. Unfortunately, as it seems to me, their initial approach is at fault and you cannot correct it with a service pack.
The whole smartphone and tablet revolution, as well as people switching between iOS and Android all the time, have already proven that this is a load of bull.
Metro (especially on the desktop) is simply not a very good product, and people know that just fine. Not only is it cumbersome and annoying on desktops, it doesn’t even have any worthwhile applications. All it does it gets in your way – with nothing to show for itself.
Talking about Windows 8 now, you can enter classic mode and spend there all day using Office 2013, your favorite webbrowser and other stuff that runs in classic.
You don’t need the Metro side, which I agree isn’t anyone’s favorite place to be.
My desktop tile is in the upper left corner and it’s the first thing I hit. From then on it’s just Windows as usual.
You didn’t disprove his point.
Furthermore, you’ve probably* levelled the same kind of rebuttal at Linux users who makes the same kind of excuses your are making for the interface. “Oh, it must be something else and not the fact that most people (who matter) just don’t like it”.
Maybe you haven’t had a problem with it because you’ve internalized how to avoid the problems. I know when I use Windows or any Linux, I quickly learn what sets off some bugs and I avoid those triggers to the point where I forget I had that problem.
* If you haven’t… really? Because “I don’t have a problem with it” is not a good argument, as I had to explain to WereCatf a few days ago.
No I didn’t, because it is my opinion. It isn’t based on fact.
If you reread my very short comment it is a statement of fact. No clue how you can find that offensive.
You were being obtuse and you know it.
Funny: From my point of view you were the first one reacting with a rude reply.
It’s true: a sample size of one is a rather small data point. Just be happy that till now you were productive with Win8. Enjoy it as long as it lasts.
The proposed changes to the Windows 8 UI simply tell me that you are not in the majority (or in the group relevant enough).
Perhaps, instead of short sentences belittling/disregarding other views, can you give us an insight of where you think Windows 8/8.1 shines?
Please, possibly, avoiding the “feels overall faster”.
Like most here, I do like Windows 7, can use 8/8.1 after install some applications to make it behave a little bit more like the former and spend all time (when I am not on openSUSE) on the traditional side of fence.
I also never saw one single metro application that would be better, in the sense that would give a better “experience”, when matched by an equivalent well designed counterpart (pardon the pleonasm).
I am really curious about.
I’ll bite:
Consistency – Metro applications perform reliably and predictably. They do what they say they do. Capabilities are clearly declared and privacy is respected with regards to location and access to contacts.
Efficiency – Metro applications persist state so they do not need to run all of the time, they do not need to background all the time, and are generally engineered well enough so that if they do need background connectivity the events are properly managed by the OS.
Touch support – Win32 apps have abysmal touch support. WinRT apps use DirectManipulation which offers smooth interaction on a tablet.
Live Tiles – WinRT apps can surface information to the start screen. Meaningful, glanceable information. It’s very powerful, even on a laptop.
A few well written apps are Hulu, Netflix, and OneNote.
You mean OneNote MX? Sorry, the last version I tried was inferior on features and the interface was not as useful as the regular you would find on “classical” version when you are using a keyboard and mouse, which is the point on this thread. Same is true for the other apps you enlisted.
As many people said, metro apps may be fine for primarily touch devices, like tablets and phones, but they really work against you on computers with large screens with mouse and keyboard if what you do is more than “consume” media, again like many already said.
As a side note, WinRT does not enforce the use of a Metro interface the last time I checked it so, with the exception of “Live Tiles” and “Touch support”, perhaps, the other things have more to do with WinRT? (I am asking because the last time I read something about it, that was what I got the impression the author said)
Difference of opinion, I find them to be pretty equivalent. OneNote MX performs well enough for me that I never open the desktop version, and behaves better in various snapped states.
I think that’s a truism that many here repeat and take for granted, but in my experience it hasn’t necessarily been true.
I think the radial menu in OneNote is straight up better UI design for Mouse and Keyboard, period.
When I speak of WinRT I mean the totality of it. The library, the process manager, the broker, and the UI platform it runs through.
While Desktop apps can access some WinRT APIs, its just some, not all.
Plus Desktop apps dont get the appcontainer sandboxing so they’re less reliable.
As a W8/TIFKAM/Metro/Modern fan can you please take the time to explain why ‘charms’ and the need to click on a few pixels on some really strange place on the screen that is not marked is such a great, fantastic, wonderful, earth shattering idea?
In my really honest opinion that comes from 40+ years of computer use and programming, several years studying UI design and human interaction with a compluter, Metro is the biggest load of [redacted] ever to get released. I knocks Gnome 3.0 and the original Unity into a cocked hat.
Again personally, I hope that the people who designed it are made to use it in its current form for the rest of their lives. Either that or never be let near a computer, tablet or any other device again. I can’t decide which is the worst punishment.
Frankly even IBM JCL and all its wierd incantations make more sense to me than Metro.
There again, I’m an old fuddy-duddy/dinosaur so I don’t count but I know that I can still tell a bitter lemon from a Sweet Orange and Win 8.x is a rotten lemon no matter how much window dressing MS put on it.
Rant over. Long may you enjoy your Metro life.
Why is the start bar so damn good when it requires you do to the same thing in a different part of the screen?
Charms are weird, but for me “oh that is over there and I click here”. General Internet reaction “Microsoft has broken the whole of Windows forever and ever and ever and ever and ever”.
Now I am moody person and very judgmental (especially when it comes to anything interface wise) when I am saying “you are whining” … damn people are whining.
You know what really pisses me off, when a UI is deceiving.
* I recently had to use MySQL, the only decent GUI tool on Windows that was simple was HEIDI SQL. Unicode pound sides were coming out wrong. I was sure I was sending everything UTF8, wasted a few hours debugging … it was a bug in the GUI.
* Viewing a photo in G+, it looks like a new Windows … so you press backspace to move to the page before, but it isn’t a page it is a lightbox that is fullscreen.
Anyway it is all academic.
Also worth noting is that nothing on the charms bar is an essential feature, so it being discoverable doesn’t actually hurt anything.
In 8.1 there was a huge push for on screen cues for Search within various apps.
I think what you mention speaks to the crux of this argument, that some people on this website take understandable criticisms to the extreme.
Its okay to dislike some of the design direction in Windows 8.1, I have my reservations as well. What I think is unreasonable and hyperbolic is the rhetoric that gets thrown around.
I’ve met a number of people who have nu problem with it and that was before 8.1.
Nor do I have any problems controlling it, I just think there’s a disconnect between Metro and classic desktop stuff. It feels like two systems, not as one.
Was why not emulate ‘touch’ with the mouse?
The first time I saw the metro start screen, I tried to ‘swipe’ it across with my mouse. Nothing happened. I thought, “What?” The scroll bar at the bottom is tiny, so it is quite cumbersome to use. Why didn’t they just have the ability to swipe with the mouse? It seems like a simple solution to the hybrid problem.
I guess enabling that in Metro but disabling it on desktop is beyond the capability or imagination of the Windows development team.
You can scroll left and right by moving the mouse scroll wheel up and down.
This sounds a bit illogical, which is actually is, but I found it very easy to get used to.
Where MS missed the mark for me is they could have designed an adaptive interface that could have worked for both casual and pro/enthusiasts use.
They just had to make Metro/ModernUI a full blown tilling window manager! Have a simple layout like ModernUI is now for casuals and something that doesn’t waste screen space and mouse movements for the others, with multiple apps on screen.
I’d have been happy with that.
If they really want to get rid of the desktop they should stop their tie in with the Windows Store and artificial limitation on what API/Framework you can use (I’ve said it before but no JIT/VM in metro apps? really MS?).
Make it usable MS, plz.
Just got a computer with Windows 8 a month ago (the only option was with this OS installed). For my wife. Although I read a lot about the bad sides of the latest version there was nothing that could prepare me for the horrible experience I (and my wife) had with it.
I really tried to use it. But … First, the default start button in the 8.1 update is a joke. So I installed the classic shell, did some other tweaks, played around with apps and programs … It never felt like being “home”. For my wife it was extremely annoying as it is totally different to what she is used to. The last annoyance was plugging in the scanner and then finding out how to use the damn thing. That was it. Windows 8 is gone and back to Windows 7. I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not only about Metro but about the whole experience. Going to desktop by default is just not going far enough. Windows 8 was not made for me.
I will not use newer Windows as long as they do not somehow make it with “classical” taste in mind. I think this goes for most of us middle aged users. For me, I don’t have time to learn new tricks because I have a demanding job and a family. Touching is and for me will be reserved for tablets. With PCs my modus is using a mouse/touchpad and a keyboard. I am used to it that way and will be doing it until the end of days. Microsoft should stop trying to force me to change my habits.
Edited 2014-01-31 09:48 UTC
Pretty much the way I see it too. Add to that our very short experience with it at work and it’s safe to say we will never move beyond Windows 7 unless a future Windows release operates exactly like 7.
The way I see it, if a desktop or laptop computer doesn’t have a touch enabled screen, Metro simply doesn’t belong on it, period. It makes sense on phones and tablets, but it’s the stupidest thing to hit traditional desktops since Bob.
Same for me. I got a new machine for my wife, and unfortunately Win 8 was the only choice. Still a usability nightmare after months of using it, and the metro crap is just plain annoying. Did I mention that the flat design is just sooo ugly? The machine even has a touch screen, which makes it a little easier to use, but hey we have tablets for that kind of experience. I find it to be really difficult to be productive with Win 8. And no, 8.1 doesn’t help that much. I still prefer Win 7 from a usability/productivity point of view.
Surely it would be sensible to have the system detect if a touch interface is used, default to Metro if it finds one and desktop if it doesn’t. How hard can it be???
Just about the only inconsistent behavior i have run into with it is the gallery stuff. If you open a image via explorer you can’t for some reason browse the rest of the folder, never mind the rest of the gallery.
Beyond that, and that 8.0 overly obscured how to reach “all apps/software”, i can’t say i have had much issue with the metro interface.
But then i have no problem with tinkering, while most people do computing by rote repetition.
Gosh, Microsoft is even more retarded now than in the Win9x/Me days.
These guys have been pushing tablets since the late 90’s and they still don’t have a solid OS for the platform.
Even if it required a stylus on the 1024/768 interface — if it worked well with the pen at that size it would scale up for finger on a bigger display.
But it didn’t work well because MS has very little idea how to design an easy to use OS.
How someone could push tablets for over a decade and not have a great finger OS – MS is not very smart as an organization.
Apple’s first (or 2nd) version of a tablet OS was still better designed and easier to use than MS’s, and they’ve been in this space for over a decade.
M$ and Apple are both capable of making the best operating system suites physically possible. Most any large company is capable in every way except that patents and money are structured selfishly, which tends to make superficial actions look stupid (but understandably “smart” if you’re small). Patents and money are a possible way in a primitive world of FUD that is almost impossible to navigate otherwise.
You may call a person who made a lot of money many names, but stupid is not one of them. Primitive selfishness is good in that it is a possible timeline! It looks stupid, but when M$ enacts absurd levels of distraction to the OS news, surely it must be some strategy, alien to most of us, that just looks stupid to us because they’ve no apparent need to worry about anything except for making a continuously improving desktop OS.
I think “entirely Free Software with zero patents” becomes the only emotionally feasible goal, and its timeline comes soon after its construction.
I was surprised when I got a fairly cheap HP laptop with Windows 8 and liked the metro interface. Granted I only liked it after I figured out I could use keyboard shortcuts to get around easily. I tend to use the metro screen as kind of like the widgets screen on a Mac. I just switch using keyboard commands. I may be one of only a few doing that though hehe. I work as a Linux sysadmin as well so I may be more apt to use keyboard commands.
I’ll second that. I use Windows 8 every day at work and I have never had a problem. I’d rather use Linux for my main work desktop (there are a few issues which make that a non-starter).
I find Metro very useable. Perhaps because the keyboard controls work well – or perhaps because I’ve used a lot of different desktops in the past, and I am able to pickup new paradigms easily (but then I would have expected that to be the same for most OSNews readers). I could understand Metro being a problem for the sort of person who has only ever used Windows.
Edited 2014-02-01 14:52 UTC
I think Microsoft realized that they were NEVER going to get Windows 8 into the enterprise market if they didn’t do something about the interface. I don’t know anyone in IT suggesting Windows 8 as a client platform.
MS placed Metro on laptops and desktops to get these people familiar with it so that when they bought a handheld they would buy an MS product.
Foisting this unsuitable interface upon laptop/desktop users wasn’t done for the benefit of those users.
I dont think Windows 8.1 is really THAT BAD. I dont think it was integrated well, people should have been allowed to either use the traditional desktop or opt for the touch interface. There have been several attempts at a touch interface mixing with the traditional input methods, this includes GNOME 3, KDE did it with the Plasma Netbook desktop which works well, heck I have a touch screen laptop and I use XFCE as my main interface and I even put together something that works really well. I understand Microsofts thinking behind Metro and the start screen UI, I just think it was implemented way too soon and thrust down peoples throats. Just because something doesnt work well in a particular scenario doesnt mean it was a horrible idea, it just wasnt implemented properly. I think this was a case where the industry of hardware manufacturers just didnt follow the lead of Microsoft and produce good touch screen devices and touch screen systems and the ones that did went with Android instead.
Roberto J. Dohnert
Lead Developer
Black Lab Linux
http://www.blacklablinux.org