There is a new version of the X11 desktop environment which emulates Windows, XPde.
XPde 0.2.0 Released
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Why can’t the Linux crowd make something original?
In general, free software is not about innovation. It is about re-implementing software and making it Free.
But in this case, the author’s target is to really create a clone of Windows, he did it on purpose. He is not part of the “linux crowd” exactly, he just wanted to create a clone of the Windows UI for Linux. It was no accident, or lack of inspiration.
You could say the same thing about almost any single person or group of people. MS, Sun, IBM, even Apple (to a lesser extent). Few of us in society are innovators (I doubt I’ve ever had a completely original thought). Few of those who are receive the opportunity to create. That is why everything is recycled.
I don’t necessarily disagree with Eugenia’s statement but I’d just like to point out a couple of important innovative open source projects:
Apache, Mozilla (XUL in particular)
>>Copycat development
>>By Anonymous (IP: —.san.rr.com) – Posted on 2003-02-16 >>03:19:55
>>Why can’t the Linux crowd make something original?
———————————————————————- —-
why do you have to speak english or any other established language, why don’t you develop your own language…
Yah it’s true…
ie, word, excel and sql server are very innovative product! 😉
please…
“Why can’t the Linux crowd make something original?”
Assuming your talking about Windowing environments, and the general target. Would you use an environment that was significantly different from what you’re use to? Something “original” will have a significent price for anyone not willing to deal with that originality.
I know everyone is allowed to have their own personal preferneces, but even the survey on XPde (that asks what your favorite gui is) show XP to be in third after KDE (1st) and OS X (2nd). Additionally, I’ve seen half a dozen (very good) XP themes available on KDE-Look.org. What does this accomplish that a theme and an icon set can not?
This project works against many of the concepts that are the heart of linux by not using open source development tools (Kylix), and they have subsequently locked themself into a specific architecture (something else that Linux has grown to avoid). They go further to throw out many well written widgets to recreate task bars and menus.
There somewhat misguided belief is that it will make Linux conversion from Windows easier, but I would like to know how? KDE’s gui is already very intuitive, I know many people that don’t even know how to use a command line use KDE on GNU/Linux with no problems.
I know I’m trolling, but I don’t understand the need that this project is fullfilling.
Um… a ‘Free’ Windows?
In theory, something like this would allow users to switch with retraining. For example, a lot of users have a very fragile understanding of the system, and *any* change, will break it. If the interaction with the DE is going to be minimal (in a simple email, web browsing, or specialized application case) then XPDE can fit the bill.
As for innovation, nobody has innovated in a really long time. Everybody has been using the same Windows/Menus/Icons/Pointers scheme since the Xerox PARC. I personally think we need to move to something simpler all the way around. There are far too many widgets and buttons and gidgets in current desktop environments. We need to streamline things to the bare minimum of what needs to be visible, and provide powerful methods of quickly accessing further functionality.
PS> As for “embracing and extending” with respect to the OSS world. I think a wonderful example is KDE. KDE takes the component embedding model farther than any other OS. The industry did a whole lot of sqwaking about it in the mid-90’s, but KDE takes it to the next level. As a result, KDE is the most tightly integrated desktop environments out there.
Read their FAQ sheet. They are not doing any of this to fill any sort of need for anyone other than themselves. Primarily, they did it because they thought it would be fun.
Nice Troll Eugenia. Sometimes I think you’re astroturfing for Microsoft.
Free Software isn’t about anything, it’s simply about software, being free (with source code supplied). Doesn’t mean it necessarily have to be a copy of anything or not.
As for ‘.san.rr.com’, do you do anything else but troll and crapflood? The minute somone creates something and release it as open source, it gets labled as ‘The Linux Crowd’? wtf?
Xpde’s aim is to copy windows anyway. Plus its written is PASCAL (LOL!) so it only runs on platforms that Borland support.
Not very exciting, but it’s a guys hobby. Far more productive / benifical to society than trolling @ OSnews.
Apache started out NOT as a innovative project, and Mozilla is a project by Netscape, only open source and until recently can’t hardly be called “Free Software” Yes, there are cases of innovation with open source software, like Ports 🙂
“Nice Troll Eugenia. Sometimes I think you’re astroturfing for Microsoft. ”
Well, i know i’m not Eugenia, but i’m going to butt in here and say that
this time i agree with her. The last couple of years (i.e. since Linux started
being more noticed) Linux’s most urgent need is to get friendlier. And
so far, the only way to get more friendly with new users is to imitate
what tools already exist. It’s not a problem of lacking innovation, nor
is it a problem of “the Linux crowd” being original folks or not. It’s a matter
of making the system easier to use, more familiar.
“Xpde’s aim is to copy windows anyway. Plus its written is PASCAL (LOL!) so it only runs on platforms that Borland support. ”
Nice troll, Grant. Next time, you should try to read the FAQ, there’s
one FAQ, especially writter for dumb folks like you:
—
· Kylix is pascal, most linux developers are C++ developers, you are stupid!!
Kylix 3 has a C++ version, you are stupid! 😉
[ Back to Top ]
—
So there ya go.
about why cloning Windows UI is a terribly bad idea, but I just have to note that Crystal icons look terribly out of place in those screenshots. And the Turn Off dialog? Ugly is just not the word – it would be a understatement.
well, what can I say, it is in 0.2 only :-).
Besides, to the author of XPde, you can also integrate a browser into the enviroment. And call it Internet Explorer. Internet Explorer is not trademarked by any company still in business, while in the courts Microsoft says it is generic. There is no Linux Explorer, is there?
I’ve always thought Mirosoft’s classic theme was the cleanest interface to work with, especially their widget set. I look forward to their future releases. Keep up the great work!
It seems rather pointless to copy Windows so closely when anyone moving to Linux is going to have to re-learn a lot of things anyway. Having a DE they’re used to, rather than one that’s slightly different (and better) like KDE obviously wouldn’t make the Linux apps more familiar. IMO switching from one app to another such takes a lot more effort than learning slightly different start menu and taskbar behaviour.
>> I general, free software
>> is not about innovation.
In general, commercial software isn’t about innovation. Its about selling old wine in new bottles. Commercial software is about copying, appropriating, stealing, out-cheating, or buying out your competitor. Foolish companies like to innovate. Smarter ones always steal what’s available, and then dress them up with new wall papers.
>Nice Troll Eugenia. Sometimes I think you’re astroturfing for Microsoft.
I think you should seriously be careful how you talk to me or about me, Grant. What I said, is what I believe. It has nothing to do with trolling or MS. It has to do with my opinion. If you don’t agree, no problem. No need to react this way.
‘san.rr.com’ here.
Sorry guys, didn’t mean to stir up so many people. Today’s my first day on the patch and I’m kind of edgy
Using the term ‘Linux crowd’ was wrong. Sorry…forgive me
I do use Linux 5 days out of the week at my work as my primary desktop and have been using since 1996. I’m in no way a Microsoft shill as some may think from my post. I hate Microsoft…and don’t understand why anyone would want to emulate it. I just think seeing something with a fresh face (interface) on Linux would be refreshing.
why not have a look at it? about the only bitch I’ll have is that they’ve written it in Kylix which is not available natiuvely for FreeBSD, however, thats is about it.
As for “innovation”, there is nothing innovative about a watch with an operating system or a fridge with an internet terminal. Innovative to me is something that is USEFUL and ORIGINAL, that is, no one has ever thought about doing something like that. For example, people make a big thing about the tablet PC and the hardwriting recognition. Sure, its a great advance in concept of handwriting recognition but it is nothing innovative.
Innovation to you is completely wrong and mistaken. Original defination of innovation (from Webster):
Main Entry: in·no·va·tion
Pronunciation: “i-n&-‘vA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : the introduction of something new
2 : a new idea, method, or device : NOVELTY
Nothing said about something being useful. Check your dictionary – Oxford, Collins, whatever. It is bound to be the same (please, make that a respected dictionary).
GREAT WORK! KEEP UP!! This is what we need. You do NOT need to be innovative! Innovation will ONLY attrack geeks and nothing more. You want to bring more users to Linux. When users see something familiar you have MORE chances of keeping those users and attracting more. Want innovation??? Go and try Slicker and OE Desktop. And??? Where is OE Desktop now?? Perhasps Slicker will have more chances. Why do things differently in a strange way when we have something PROVEN that works. XPDE is a GREAT idea and keep it up! Windows Explorer-like UI on Linix is a great idea.
Lot of barking going on, it seems. If you don’t care about “another windows look” then what’s that urge that makes you shout it out loud?
I can almost imagine some of you guys stopping randomly on the streets and yelling on top of your lungs: “Gawd this building is ugly! How can they live in that?” And you go home and stand long in front of the house admiring your new Keramik windowsills before entering. After all – a house is all about being beautiful and innovative, right?
Sheesh.
Your lack of comprehension skills rajan is pathetic. This is what I wrote:
“Innovative to me is something that is USEFUL and ORIGINAL, that is, no one has ever thought about doing something like that.”
Now sweety, the key words are “Innovative to me” specifying what I define as innovative. Where did I specify that what I said was the dictionary definition of innovative? How about actually reading the post instead of doing a quick browse and concluding that I was bashing Microsoft.
Oh, and according to Collins New Pocket English Dictionary:
Innovate: Introduce new ideas or methods.
As a linux newbie, this is great for me. The most frustrating thing for me using linux is the inability to easily change screen resolutions and refresh rates (yeah I have sensitive eyes
This promises to make that a snap.
I completely agree with the goals of this project – as a Windows user, I would definitely be much more attracted to XPde rather than KDE or Gnome. If he releases this source as GPL, the geeks/hobbyists can always modify XPde to bring in the stuff from their favorite environment they like…
Download the source code of XPde.
It’s written in pascal. Stupid.
If you think the familiarity of window gadgets is so important you aren’t going to switch any time soon.
I’m not defending KDE or Gnome, but this copy-catting certainly isn’t making things better. And it’s a classical infringement on intellectual property in my book.
And what’s with the .com domain, BTW?
Here is a classic example of comparing what a newbie wants and what an experienced Linux user wants:
SND: As a linux newbie, this is great for me. I would definitely be much more attracted to XPde
Iggy: you think the familiarity of window gadgets is so important you aren’t going to switch any time soon
This is a classcial example of how some users ignore what “newbies” are used to and ignore newbies’ demands.
Being innovative won’t bring new users. Creating something that users are used too WILL bring and most likely keep users.
I just wonder what all the ranting is all about. Please read their (XPde) FAQ. Most likely you are to fall under this category –>”The project is not for you”
rajan r>
not that am bashing you but please read carefully what people post before goin on a “frenzy” of putting them down. man Mr.Gardiner just owned your A## big time; like he said “PATHETIC”.
This is a classcial example of how some users ignore what “newbies” are used to and ignore newbies’ demands.
Nope, it’s a case of user demand, that’s for certain. But the user doesn’t know that this doesn’t meet his demands.
As they said on the page in question, it isn’t about unifying even clipboard support between apps, so it has a long way to go before SND will be content.
OTOH, this might reflect a turning point in open-source (?) development; programmers actually coding for the sake of users and not themselves.
But as always, it reflects the lack of intellectual capital amongst open-source programmers.
In spite of the fact that I use KDE regularly, it is not nearly as integrated as windows -eg: in Windows XP, I can right-click on the task-bar & launch task manager, double-click on the network connection icon in the systray & take a quick look at it without hunting for programs with obscure names like korinoco (completely meaningless to any newbie) through the menu, or key-combinations like Control+Escape (who the hell would know?).
Like they say, their whole idea is to make a windows user feel right at home, and they have done a pretty good job even at version 0.2.0. After trying this, I must say that just seeing the network connection icon in the system tray like in windows was a familiar & comforting feeling. Ditto for the desktop properties dialog – no goddamn Sax2, yet another obscure name to deal with (yay!). XPde, although in its infancy, has managed to get the same kind of integration, and if that means copying windows, so be it. I cant wait for version 1.0!
I’m sorry but if you are *waiting* for the next version of XPde maybe yo ought not to be using linux. I think the more sensible thing is to reading a F******g linux or unix book!!!! Those (not all of you) who live soley by the Gui’s or window managers that mimick windows need to go ahead and reformat your drive and put windows back on. Linux, solaris, freebsd, etc are awesome operating systems if you know what you are doing. Gui’s restrict the abilities of them. To the person about the network icon in XP– Geez use windows dude. I use solaris. Instead of ‘waiting’ for version 1.0.. i know i have to edit the resolv.conf, hosts, nsswitch.conf, etc. I know most of you on this thread are not like this. It just urks me so much when people live on the fact they need more or better gui’s/window manangers on OS’s other than windows. If you want that use XP. Me.. give me windowmaker and an xterm and I’m happy. Unix/ linux was not intended to be like windows. People who want linux to be windows need to just need to be kept from ever running anything other than XP again.
Took the words from my mouth…. Amem to that, brother! 🙂
Cheers,
DeadFish Man
Opensource is all about choice. It won’t lock you in using one product. So when people do like the windows xp gui they CAN choice to use this wm. Respect the choice …
For my parents I installed Rh 8.0 with a “windowez” theme, it’s familair to them and they don’t have to learn a complete new UI.
I think Lindows or Xandros should support this project (but it may invite legal issue).
Re: some people ought not to use linux
The typical troll from the group of peoples that will slowly vanish in the near future.
I mysel might not be addicting to it but it is very useful to bring new user to Linux. The word RTFM wont work on most user especilly non techie.
Your comprehension skills is far more pathetic. This is what I wrote:
“Innovation to you is completely wrong and mistaken.”
I never implied that you are using dictionary words, but I think you should stick with the dictionary. After all, I can say “you” to me means “me”. Or when I say “cool”, I was implying on “geek”.
They made the dictionary precisely for that reason. If you use one defination, I use one defination, appleforever another, Eugenia yet another etc. – there is no meaning to the word no more. In the case of “innovation”, when you say Microsoft’s watch or IA is uninnovative, it isn’t true merely because “useful” is not under any dictionary I know for “innovative”.
Oh, and according to Collins New Pocket English Dictionary:
Innovate: Introduce new ideas or methods.
Also, nothing that says “useful”.
So your idea of “innovation” is so completely off mark. There are many things that fit the dictionary defination of “innovative”, but entirely useless.
So in other words, I can say Debian is easy to use for new users because “easy” to me means having instructions in English. make sense? Nope. Why? Dictionary defination is completely different from my idea of “easy” Same with your post.
Why shouldn’t Linux be usable by everyone? Making it easier to use doesn’t effect you, better graphical tools wouldn’t stop you from using an xterm to do things the hard way. The existence of desktop distributions like Mandrake with KDE/GNOME hasn’t made Linux worse for experts.
Anyway, it isn’t just newbies who aren’t willing to RTFM who like things to be simpler and easier, sometimes that can save time for even the most experienced users. I don’t understand why some Linux fans are resistant to Linux becoming more easy to use, why do you seem to want to keep it an elitist club?
JK I totally agree. I’m experienced *nix user too. But sometimes I would like some things become easier too.
> Plus its written is PASCAL (LOL!)
Um, what’s wrong with Pascal?
This the great thing about Linux: You can have a UI that does exactly what you want. Want Windows XP? Can do. The Mac UI? Can do. The Amiga look? Can do. I use OLVWM becuase I’m an old Sun guy and I’m used to it.
…that the same people who on one hand say that windows is so closed and want freedom of choice, slam anything that doesn’t fit into their walled garden on the other. These people give linux and OSS a bad name.
Rajan R – you are a nitpicker. You lost the argument, so just admit it. Clutching for straws will not help. Thank you drive through.
Although the developers are self professed KDE users and I am too, I like XPde – for day 2 day home computer use, it’s a clean interface for web browsing, email, news, ICQ and Open Office. It’s one I’m familiar with too. Have any of you nay-sayers here actually had a shot of it. They are doing a great job.
Maybe you just dont get it, the reason why linux/unix has more capabilities is because it hasnt becomes “XP”-ized. Simply making an easier GUI right off hand restricts command line usage. Sometimes making GUI’s make things even more complicated: For example Eterms are great, one simple command line makes it the way i want. If i want the same thing in gnome terminal it takes longer because of ALL the menus’s and selection for fonts. Again I say if you want linux simpler then use windows. Windows’ customer base was geared toward everyday home user, linux/unix was not. Stop fighting this fact. The analogy is similar to trying to make the way a 53 foot volvo big rig drives into an easy toyota camry. If you want to drive one LEARN IT. Shall we install an automatic transmission in it and modify it to look like a camry? And then complain it doesnt drive like a camry?? Geez come on. If you want ease use windows, if you want more power learn the other *nix’s.
I don’t get your point. I’ve already learned enough about unix to do everything I want to do. If I want ease of use, I put a nice front-end on my highly capable linux system. The best of both worlds can easily co-exist. It seems that you like things specifically because they’re complicated or difficult. That’s your choice, but it’s not mine! If it makes you unhappy I do apologise.
Ice, you need to clue in that XPde will actually allow ‘newbies’ to get their feet wet, and when they have adoped linux, it follows that they will eventually go so far as to ‘learn it’. Somewhat like giving them the keys to the volvo big rig vs telling them to jack it to try it out. Ever thought of the fact that many typical users do not give a flying f*ck about commandlines in their face?
I see your problem though. You are one of the paranoid few that believe if GUIs and WMs continue to be forced on the console-only crowd, that their days are numbered and everything will become XP-ized. I think that is pretty far from the truth.
If *nix was not geared for the home user why do we have OSX being adoped by Apple and distributed to one-button-mouse users? Linux and other platforms could take a page out their book. But without the help (or rather hinderance) of people with blinkers attached to their heads.
And last, the true art of a GUI is in making complicated tasks simple while not sacrificing power and flexibility. GUIs which do not accomplish that and usually sacrifice this are simply implemented by unskilled programmers or designers.
Yes!!!
YOU (ice) should not use linux,
YOU (ice) give linux users a bad reputation
YOU (ice) are a complete moron.
who the hell are YOU to say who should and who shouldn’t use linux?
who the hell are YOU to say wich desktop environment is better if YOU say that YOU only use the CLI
First if you can get XPde installed and set up… then why do you need it? If you are capable of installing XPde, you are advanced enough not to need an XP wm. Thats like riding your new bike to the bike shop to put training wheels on it. Kinda backwards? But you must realize something. Watch when the next version of mandrake or red hat comes out. People will complain about BS things like that the “OS” sucks because the ‘kill’ button isnt there on the KDE menu even though its quicker to type xkill and click?? ” I couldnt get XMMS to work”
The problem is that new users become ‘dependent’ on the WMs/GUI. They do not learn what these ‘clicks’ do. So when something goes wrong “its redhat’s fault”.. “its suse’s fault”.. “the distro sucks”. When 99% of the time its bugs in the GUIS/WM’s. YOU can run whatever you want, but see its the people that use things like KDE, gnome, XPde that run into problems then come on here and gripe and complain how bad *nix’s are. Its the same people that do reviews of linux distro’s also haha. These people T me off. Go back and read them. Its things like’ “Sax2″ didnt work quite right.’ ” Kedit didnt save my docs properly’. How about pico? Since when has VI or pico failed? To those people who KNOW how to use unix/linux you know what i mean. Oh yeah.. OS X has a place in design software. Its bad a$$ for that.
Chill, dude! Your point that anyone who is capable of installing XPde doesnt need it is totally valid. I have been using mostly Suse (& OSX/win2k at work) for about a year, and have learned it ‘the RTFM way.’ Hell, in school I learned C & C++ programming on a dumb SCO terminal & with ‘vi’ editor… really made me appreciate windows 3.1 at that time (lol), but the CLI is not such a challenge for *me*.
However, given the fact that I want to get rid of windows entirely at my home, I cant ask the rest of my family to simply RTFM. They neither have the time nor the need to learn the intricate workings of *any* OS to get their daily tasks done. So when something like this comes along with an interface that they are very familiar with, it is only going to make the transition simpler.
When you say that people do not learn what these ‘clicks’ do while using GUI, you contradict your earlier post saying, ‘some people ought not to use Linux.’ So which one is it cowboy? … should people learn what each & every ‘click’ does, or should people not use linux at all? In either case, it would be *their choice* … just who the hell gave you the right to tell people what to do? If you get out of the computer lab more often, you might actually get a clue of what it is that *people* really want.
Again, suck in your bottom lip and accept that you got it wrong. You are trying to now re-write a post claiming that what I wrote was a dictionary definition. Now many posts later you’ve changed your tune and say that we should use “dictionary definition”.
Ok, since you Windows supporters like the average joe test so much, go onto the street and ask anyone what they would consider “innovative”. According to many Windows users logic, it doesn’t matter what the dictionary says, what the user says counts and what I said would be the meaning of the word most average Joe’s and Jane’s would give you.
If you had some balls at all, you’d be fair dink’un about the situation and accept what you did was wrong.
Just who the hell gave you the right to tell people what to do?
Dude, did you read the last message? It said run what you want. The messages before that merely suggested that people who are wrapped up in the idea that its great that *nix’s WMs/GUI’s mimic XP more closely need to stay away from linux.
You want to get rid of windows.. but you want to keep an interface that your family can use? Please explain this. If you are all using one computer I could somewhat understand it this if everyone logged on through separate accounts. Otherwise its pointless to wipe out windows and install another OS that looks exactly like it. What does that accomplish?
You point out that somehow i contradict myself?
I think I was quite clear about this. Its pointless to make *nix’s appear and work like windows. If you want windows UI then use windows. The average user does not want linux. If you do not believe me.. look at the colleges. How many colleges moved from running SunOS systems with FVWM95 in labs to some kind of WinNT if they didnt run WinNT already?
Then you have the newbies who do not do any reading or research on Linux and throw something like Suse or mandrake on their computer. Installs the entire distro under / (snickers), chooses KDE as the main WM. In a sense this is fine for a beginner. BUT the problems start when this person then does a review or make comments on “Mandrake” solely based on the GUI of KDE? “I cant change my resolution because there are no options when I right click on the desktop– boo mandrake” (haha). “Kprinter (or whatever it is now) doesnt work”, but never reads up on CUPS. These are the people that give *nix’s a bad name not I.
The bottom line IMHO I do not see a point in developing WM’s that become closer to appearing and having a UI as windows or XP especially when its entirely possible to “run” windows in *nix. So to everyone who wants “XP” in *nix.. very very simple solution.. install windowmaker or afterstep and install VMware and put windows on that. That way you got the best of both worlds. =) And then send me the screenshots when windows crashes haha. This concludes my rant on “XP-izing’ a non XP OS haha.
“BUT the problems start when this person then does a review or make comments on “Mandrake” solely based on the GUI of KDE? “I cant change my resolution because there are no options when I right click on the desktop– boo mandrake” (haha). “Kprinter (or whatever it is now) doesnt work”, but never reads up on CUPS. These are the people that give *nix’s a bad name not I.”
While Linux software has problems like that, it deserves a bad name as a desktop OS. Those are the kind of rough edges that are unacceptable in a mainstream OS, which is what distributions such as Mandrake claim to be. Even if you’re an experienced user who knows how things work, it still wastes your time having to deal with that kind of crap.
Agree with you completely JK. Thats why i said LInux or unix will never truely make it as a desktop OS. Of all though… I think Freebsd, solaris, or openBeos would probably have the greatest chance at approaching something of that monstrosity. Mainly because they dont have library dependency issues as bad as linux.
These arguements are so pointless.
If you want to use Windows, go ahead. If you want to use Linux, go ahead. FreeBSD? Sure, why not? Nobody is forcing anyone to use any OS. If people want to write GUI’s for Linux, I say go right ahead. I use Linux and at various times use different interfaces for different reasons. OK, I’m a computer geek. If I set it up for a regular user, I would keep it simple and familiar. So a product like XPde is fine for this. Or Lindows or RedHat with KDE loaded (and not a lot of extra stuff).
The flaming rants don’t accomplish much of anything. If you think you’ve got a great idea for a GUI or OS, well go right ahead and program one. That’s what a lot of other people have done which is why we HAVE a choice instead of every computer in the world only having MS Windows on it. I say that this is good. It’s callled competiotion. It’s called choice. It is a form of freedown because you can choose what YOU like.
So to all the flames, Linux or MS or whatever, take it to slashdot or something. Let’s try to have some reasonable discussion here.
You are trying to now re-write a post claiming that what I wrote was a dictionary definition.
First you accuse me of having poor comprehension skills, then comprehended my post very very very poorly. To quote from my original message:
“I never implied that you are using dictionary words”
Meanwhile you still denying the reason why dictionaries are created: to provide a standardized meaning for each word. If everybody have their own defination of words, communication would break down.
Ok, since you Windows supporters like the average joe test so much, go onto the street and ask anyone what they would consider “innovative”.
And I did exactly just that. They see innovative as something very similar to invention – something new. Meanwhile, I never ever said Microsoft was all that innovative – the fact is that it isn’t. But to be a successful company, innovation isn’t the citeria…
So, if the whole world “USA” means “evil empire”, does that make it right?
The word you were looking for in this context is “useful”.
Main Entry: use·ful
Pronunciation: ‘yüs-f&l
Function: adjective
Date: 1595
1 : capable of being put to use; especially : serviceable for an end or purpose
2 : of a valuable or productive kind <do something useful with your life>
Nothing about innovation. That’s Merriam-Wester. Pick any respected dictionary and it gives the same results. Innovation != usefulness. Never was, never will be. I too think a terminal on the frigde is not only useless but potentially annoying (ordering automatically?), and that watch bulky, expensive and useless to me (I don’t even where a watch).
I also think both aren’t all that innovative, there have been people doing that for quite some time. IIRC, Fossil has a Linux-based watch, But to say those two things are uninnovative merely because of their uselessness is pushing it.
If you had some balls at all, you’d be fair dink’un about the situation and accept what you did was wrong.
Right back at you.
And to Kon and linux_lamer: I’m far from loosing this argument. I have lost a lot of arguments, and I quickly admit it. But this isn’t one of those arguments I am loosing – heck, it is far from it. Matthew Gardiner is changing the defination of “innovation” in any dictionary I know for the sake of his arguments.
Meanwhile, Matthew, this argument is totally off topic to this subject, you may want to take it to private. If you want to reply this, be my guess, but email it to rajan_r1986 at yahoo dot com
I have read some comments about if you are able to install XPde, you don’t need it. It’s quite funny, because if you are able to install Linux, you don’t need Windows XP. But if you read the XPde FAQ, you will know the target and the scope of this project. Could you imagine a plain user installing Linux? I can’t. The purpose is to allow sysadmins to install a familiar interface to their users, and to allow distros to became more user-friendly to Windows XP users to lower the learning curve. That’s all.
Who let Ice out of the room with the padded walls? I’ve never seen someone with such a foul mouth on OSNews…
OTOH, he brings one valid point up.
Linux isn’t a desktop OS. It’s being forced into being one by some trend which stems from a Linux community definition of M$ as the evil empire. While that is true, is it really Linux’s task to fight that empire at all levels? Linux wasn’t intended to fight Windows on the PC desktop, so why force it?
First and foremost, though, Ice is a raving lunatic. It might stem from encounters with Linux desktop environments. It might stem from teenage hormones.
How can anyone hate the GUI so much? It doesn’t prevent learning. A bad GUI does. A bad, bolted on GUI invented as an afterthought, as in Linux, does. A bolted on GUI such as XPde does. The machine gets a split personality. You do it one way on the GUI side, and one way on the CLI side, and there is little correlation between the two. But it doesn’t have to be that way!
Of course, this schizophrenic state of the GUI on UNIX could explain Ice’s being upset about GUI-centric reviews of Linux distributions. Because there is one editor in the CLI, and one in KDE. Because there is one printing system here, and another there. The system isn’t designed as whole. And this is one reason why Linux isn’t made for the desktop.
I still question the need for XPde, though. If you need Windows, Windows is there for you. If you’re switching to Linux, expecting Windows, why are you switching in the first place? Didn’t you have Windows on your hard drive until the minute you inserted that installation CD?
There is already a Windows, and this amounts only to meaningless duplication.
Some people brought forward the points that everyone copied Apple, who copied Xerox.
Well, that isn’t true.
Certainly, the WIMP as we know it originated from Xerox PARC, but the PARC GUI is still not the GUI we know today. Apple extended the Xerox GUI with their own concept even back in the Lisa environment. Similarly, others copied the Apple GUI, but not without making their own extensions. Sometimes, these extensions gained broadspread proliferation across WIMP environments. Other remained coupled to their environment of birth for several reasons. But the GUI is evolving, whereas XPde and others are only about making carbon copies.
Take M$. They moved the menus into the windows and changed the way they were accessed, for one reason or another. And in ’95, they added a thing called the start button and the taskbar. Some may say that they stole these concepts from Apple and Acorn respectively, but this is at least a somewhat creative way of copying. It’s not a case of carbon-copying a particular environment, but rather to research concepts and see which ones would fit implementation in your own environment. Embrace and extend, if you will, but they weren’t copying anyone in particular. Rather, they were picking the chocolate chips out of the cookie. And most everyone finds himself copying someone else at one instance or another, but not straight off from any single environment! And not without spending any thought on how best to adapt and extend it!
An idea such as XPde or that Windows NT clone, or even Linux, is so devoid of original thought and even a spirit of exploration that it borders on IP theft.
When you develop something, and there exist other programs in the same category, why single out any contender in particular to be copied straight off when you can evaluate all choices and pick and match that which you like, if you can’t be arsed to develop some ideas of your own?
Without copying, the GUI would still be locked up inside Xerox PARC, that’s true. But without further development, the GUI would still look like it did in PARC in the mid-seventies!
Your arguments doesn’t bring something new to the discussion, please, read the XPde FAQ.
I’ve read the FAQ. It goes something like this:
No.
No.
No.
No.
Njet.
Nein.
Nej.
Non.
No no no.
No.
Nope.
Forget it.
Thanks for reading.
P.S. No, this is not for you or for your hamster or your grandmother or for any living being. D.S.
IOW, I still regard this as a tasteless joke. But I like the point about innovation being strictly forbidden. Very much in the GPL spirit. 😉
Thanks, that kind of comment is the kind a troll would have been written, so it’s useful to me to stop trying to show you the motivation of this project.
Regards