MySQL still lacks many features big customers want, but the software maker and CEO Marten Mickos have dazzling opportunities ahead. Intersting article, but too bad the article doesn’t also mention PostgreSQL, BerkeleyDB and Firebird.
Can an OSS Database Threaten Microsoft, Oracle, and IBM?
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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One think that gets me, is that articles about OSS databases talk only about MySQL. In my opinion, Firebird/Interbase is much more complete DB engine when compared to MSSQL. It might be a matter of personal opinion, but I think MySql really sucks…
I love MySQL and use it for all my personal sites which run on Linux boxes, however, there are some problems to get mass DB penetration….
(A) MySQL isn’t free for commercial use. I develop a few toy programs to tinker around with and hopefully release to the public, but I can’t bundle MySQL for free. That’s fine and I don’t deny them that they have every right to get paid for their program, but that limits my usage of it. From my reading of the current MySQL license, I owe them about $200 per copy of the software I install. That doesn’t work for me. I need a much lower price. A Pervasive (formerly Btrieve) Workstation license is like $25. Of course, I understand that Pervasive is phasing out the Workstation option and only leaving the Server (pricey) or the Workgroup (still too pricey). Of course, PostgreSQL is available for Windows, and their license is much more liberal, but….
(B) It has to be supported well in Win32. The PostgreSQL cygwin crap doesn’t cut it. Worse yet after I installed it, saw it run in it’s own cygwin32 environment, I removed it, and as I suspected, the removal in turn whacked my existing cygwin install. Easy enough to fix, and I get what I pay for, so I’m not complaining and didn’t fire off a nasty email or post some ridiculous complaint on the newsgroups. What I am saying is that situations like this lead to a lack of mass acceptance.
I really feel like the next wave of Databases aren’t going to be these massive installations that are appropriate for Oracle or MS SQL DB’s. I like using a database in the programs I write (as opposed to using flat files or some other hackeyed process) because it’s much cleaner and generally easier to access (ODBC). I figure that the PhD fatbrains that develop DB’s have a much smarter ways to store and retrieve data than I could ever engineer, so I am left to worry about getting my data from the source reliably, displaying the data, etc…
I hope this space is filled soon. Along with MySQL (too expensive) and PostgreSQL I looked into the SAP DB (which is free and runs on Win32) but it is much much too large and much much too complex for (I think) anyones needs. There were several other offerings I found: Interbase (still too rough), Ocelot (not really free), etc…
Firebird runs great on win32 with full support for stored procs/triggers etc
There are also Firebird admin tools that put the MS tools to shame.
IB Expert in particular.
MySQL may have speed, but it sacrifices for it heavily elsewhere, it also does not run that great on win32.
Firebird can be bundled with your apps for free 🙂
and on win32 it can be embedded right in your setups and only adds 3mb for the whole works.
Can you do that with MSSQL server?
A firebird wise script for ver 1.5 is available here:
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com/downloads/FB15_setup.wse
and a compiled 1.5 setup here:
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com/downloads/FB15_Setup.EXE
I have switched all of our business apps from MSDE/MSSQL to Firebird 2 years ago and have never regreted it. Heck, we even have OleDB drivers for it….
that’s a nice high-quality sql server type database
firebird is interesting. nice interbase 6.0 base..
i’m hesitant at the complete rewrite from c to c++.. i think its gonna take a few released to iron out the bugs
it lacks good unicode/multilanguage support.
will we ever see postgress win32 version? do want want one? its interbase 4.0, firebird is 6.0 and already has a half decent win32 server version as well as unix versions.
once the bugs in the firebird rewrite are removed, i think that will be the OSS db of choice. it still is nothing on db2 tho
Firebird sounds interesting, especially since I’ve never heard of it until this thread
Can/should you use it in place of MySQL for web-based PHP programming ?
Ok wtf. MySQL is gpl software. By nature of gpl they can’t force you to pay $200 for commercial use. They can sell you support, CDs, whatever..but they can’t force you to pay.
Do you have any more info on this paying stuff?
btw..postgresql might be slow, but it’s bsd licensed
. One can do whatever the hell they like with it.
mysql rocks, but it needs:
1. Better Win32 support. I have yet to come accross any company that runs mysql on windows.
2. Good, easy to work, replication support from and to MS SQL. We did get the former working recently, but it was a big royal pain in the ass.
3. A good, official, gui tool. The existing one sucks, and the good ones (like mysqlfront) that are good are not official.
mysql is great, but it still lives in the database counterculture. More is needed soon …
Yes, you can use it with PHP and Perl. Btw, Firebird is based on Interbase (Borland) wich is under Mozilla-style license.
In fact, you can use MySQL in a commercial products for free since it is GPL. You have to pay for it if you want to use it in a non free product. It seems really fair to me.
Too many people still confuse commercial and closed source… GPL _is_ commercial.
will we ever see postgress win32 version? do want want one?
No matter if you want it or not, you are going to get it 🙂 As far as I remember from the Postgresql speech at fosdem, the developers are planning to port it to win32 (without that cygwin stuff).
That guy is talking out of his ass. MySQL is GPL.
We use it here for all of our small projects, and it is fast and small. It is a waste to use Oracle for a database with < 10000 entries. Plus, it is cross-platform and support costs are cheap.
3. A good, official, gui tool. The existing one sucks, and the good ones (like mysqlfront) that are good are not official.
I don’t know, I rather like MySQL Control Center.
I’ve seen some comments regarding MySQL’s price.
First of all, you don’t have to pay this for Open Sourced private and commercial applications. You only have to pay if you want a version of MySQL that is NOT licensed under the GPL.
Again, in an attempt to be clear. If you want to use the GPL’d MySQL and subsequently be bound by the GPL in your product, then you are able to freely use and distribute MySQL. For those customers who do not want to be bound by the GPL, MySQL generously offers their product under a closed-source friendly license for a fee of $220.00 USD (which is a good price for a closed-source database server in my opinion).
Can anybody give some performance data of those OSS DB?
I tested FireBird againt MS access 2002, FireBird is 2 times more faster than Access 2002.
And i heared that SAP DB 7.4 only support SQL92.
Borland Interbase 7 gives news features, i want to know if FireBird can catch up.
As far as I can remember, MySQl is GPL, but you can get a non-gpl version from the developers too. I researched it a while back when I was looking for alternatives to MsSQL and their site said that if you embeded MySQl into your application, so as it could not function if you would remove it, then you application would be covered under the gpl too. At that point I said see-ya 🙂
The last time I checked MS-SQL 2000 was only SQL89. MSFT has yet to make a version of MS-SQL that suports the ANSI 92 or higher commands.
The main problem is that SQL92 introduced the DATE & TIME data types and renamed the old SQL89 DATE to TIMESTAMP. MSFT doesn’t want to take the risk of losing compatability with all their old code and make the change over.
You are going to embed MySQL in your application?
FireBird is a very powerfull DB.
It has support for every db connectivity api I know.
– ODBC
– JDBC: Drivers type 3 and 4! (type 2 is in development)
– OLEDB
– .NET
– Perl
– Python
– Native components for Kylix/Delphi/C++Builder
It supports full transaction API, even supports multiple databases in a single transaction.
It supports ANSI SQL92 and Stored Procedures, Triggers, Exceptions, and Events!
I have used it since InterBase 4 in a lot of projects, and I have running a FireBird 1.0.2 server in 7/24 in a private web site running JBoss J2EE Server.
It works on Linux, Solaris, Win32.
It consumes very little memory, and supports very very big databases (64bit file size).
It’s threaded
Supports transportable and hot backups.
mozilla type license (free for comercial/non-comercial use).
In resume, it’s a wonder!
IBExpert (win32) is a complete admin tool for IB/FB.
@linux_baby
Very nice win32 GUI tool: http://www.webyog.com/sqlyog/
A decent MySQL vs PostreSQL article
http://www.phpbuilder.com/columns/tim20000705.php3
Here is a thread that has some excellent MySQL vs PostreSQL discussions, it’s very long but if you are really evaluating these dbs, it’s worth the read.
http://forums.devshed.com/archive/46/2002/10/3/35171
Agree with above about the cygwin thing, PostgreSQL really needs to get going on their wiin32 port if they want to compete with MySQL. MySQL lacks some very important features (triggers, stored procedures, foreign keys) compared to PostgreSQL and Firebird, so hopefully they will fix these issues with coming realeases.
Good to see firebird getting some attention. I’d love to use it myself but as somebody already mentioned, its unicode support, particularly in relation to indexes, isn’t at all good. Does anyone know if it’s fixed in 1.5?
I read yesterday on MySQL’s site that they intend to include stored procedures and triggers in version 5 of the software… still way off since 4 is still not released but nonetheless good to hear.
I like MySQL but that is a show stopper for some projects.
Firebird can be bundled with your apps for free 🙂
and on win32 it can be embedded right in your setups and only adds 3mb for the whole works. Can you do that with MSSQL server?
Yes. It’s called MSDE. It’s not 3 megs, it’s not *exactly* free (http://www.microsoft.com/sql/howtobuy/msdeuse.asp), but the answer is “yes, you CAN freely distribute SQL Server”. I couldn’t let the typical knee-jerk rhetorical “Can you do that with M$?” question go without at least mentioning the other side of the coin. I use MSDE daily, and would advocate its use for Win32 development where Access just won’t cut it. More details here: http://www.microsoft.com/sql/techinfo/development/2000/MSDE2000.asp
and the download is here http://www.microsoft.com/sql/downloads/2000/sp3.asp.
Well, the last I check, MySQL comes with a GPLed version, which means unless your company have a policy against open source databases (funny since its effects would only be there if that company redistributes it) – I don’t see what’s wrong… 🙂
The comparision had errors and ommisions when it was first written and PostgeSQL has changed so much since then, it is no longer even talking about the same beast.
While I’m happy to see that the traditional MySQL/PostgreSQL wars have not started, here’s some food for thought. PostgreSQL already has many “enterprise” features and more are coming. PostgreSQL has a far richer P/L environment than most databases, commercial or otherwise. PostgreSQL scales very well. OSDN (is that right? The open source database benchmark deal; TpC stuff) just announced that they would like to move their benchmarks from Firebird (or whatever it’s called) to PostgreSQL because they *believe* (not proven at this point) that PostgreSQL will allow them to work around some serious performance issues in Firebird. The porting effort is currently underway. Results should be interesting.
While I’m not slamming Firebird, I did want to point out that PostgreSQL is very rich and ready for serious use. In fact, it’s being used seriously in a number of environments, including large and very large database spaces. MySQL, needless to say, is a toy looking and wanting to grow up. If you’re looking for a serious power solution, simply ignore MySQL. For those of you that want to learn more about PostgreSQL, check out the advocacy site http://advocacy.postgresql.org/ with an eye specifically looking at http://advocacy.postgresql.org/casestudies/ and of course, feel free to look at http://www.postgresql.org/ to learn more.
Just FYI, Win32 support for PostgreSQL is currently being tested. I’m not sure what the exact release schedule is, however, I can assure you that a native Win32 port is actively being looked at, coded, and being tested.
My best guess, within 6-months to year, the Win32 port will seriously rock. I give that large of window as the developers like to fix bugs and address any possible realiability issues before it’s given a real production thumbs up. What a concept… The timetable might be sooner, but that’s my guess.
At any rate, Win32 PostreSQL is “blipping” loudly on the radar!
so the win32 port of posgress is coming along.. ok.. is it going to be like apache 1.3 on win32? how many versions will it take before its fully stable? i have trhe same concerns with the firebird rewrite.. complete rewrites are sometimes not the best road to trod. i wont trust _either_ rdbms running on win32 for at least a few versions.
what about the differences from pgsql being an interbase 4.0 system to firebirds interbase 6.0 base? do pgsql support all the interbase features of 5 + 6?
iirc, they both have the same license regards to commercial usage, but I havnt looked into it.
Has anyone tried a database from RedHat?
I’ve just installed Firebird and can’t find any kind of management tool/console.
Interbase 6 had this tool where you could connect, create, manage your databases……
Can somebody advise – whree to get this tool for Firebird ?
ok it is GPL so it is free, but that also means that you can’t use it for anything else besides releasing OSS.
assuming that you want to create a product that you can sell you have to get non-gpl licenses which cost money.
so yes it is free, but not if you want to make money.
for in-house tools etc there is no problem since there are not 3party customers who yo have to supply the sources to.
p.s. we did some comparisions, and mysql sucks because:
-no stored procedures
-no good backup restore tools
-no triggers
-no clustering
we just use the microsoft MSDE it is also free, and you have the full sql server functionality, but the enterprise tools are for pay. you only have to have 1 sql server installation on your dev station. distribution of your databases is for free.
Int
You *can* distribute MySQL for free, since it is GPL, even for projects that themselves are not GPL. That’s because your project is not a ‘derived work’ in GPL speak. It uses MySQL code only via network (or possibly other interprocess communication mechanisms).
There is only a problem if you want to link some MySQL code statically to your project, and you don’t want to GPL your project.
That said, I think it’s not fair to talk about MySQL in such an article, while ignoring all the other open source databases. MySQL has its uses, but it’s lacking a number of essential features tobe able to compete with the big commercial products. Postgresql, Firebird and SAP DB are much more competitive in that market.
There appears to be some disagreement as to whether the GPL version of MySQL can be used with non GPL software. Unfortunately MySQL ABs site is rather confusing on the matter…
http://www.mysql.com/products/licensing.html
extracting the main bits…
1. Free use for those who are 100% GPL
If your application is licensed under GPL or compatible OSI license approved by MySQL AB, you are free and welcome to ship any GPL software of MySQL AB with your application. By “application” we mean any type of software application, system, tool or utility.
2. Free use for those who never copy, modify or distribute
As long as you never distribute (internally or externally) the MySQL Software in any way, you are free to use it for powering your application, irrespective of whether your application is under GPL or other OSI approved license or not.
3. Commercial use for everyone else
If your application is not licensed under GPL or compatible OSI license approved by MySQL AB and you intend to distribute MySQL software (be that internally or externally), you must first obtain a commercial license to the MySQL software in question.
a) If you include the MySQL server in your non Open Source application, you need a commercial licence for the MySQL server
b) If you include one of the MySQL drivers in your non Open Source application (so that your application can run with MySQL), you need a commercial licence for the driver(s) in question. The MySQL drivers currently include an ODBC driver, a JDBC driver and the C language library.
What they seem to be telling you is, if you’re going to be using MySQL with a commercial, closed souce application that you distribute, then you should be paying them money. So either they’re wrong, or some people posting on this forum owe them money… anyone feel in a position to clarify?
Hi all – for those of you who are searching for admin tools for Firebird, the Firebird project itself doesn’t have any. However there are several free and commercial ones available. http://www.upscene.com holds ‘Database Workbench’ – powerful, and created by me
… http://www.ibphoenix.com lists several, both freeware and shareware. Have a good look!
I find PostgreSQL quite fast. I find that it’s ever so slightly slower on a per query benchmark. But that it handles load more gracefully. When switching from MySQL to PostgreSQL, I found that the load actually dropped. This is possibly because the indexes seem to be more flexible in PostgreSQL. Don’t forget, one of the goals for 7.4 is to have full replication/clustering capabilities.. If they can pull this off, I think that will be a huge boost for them. Win32 support is coming soon as well.
Cheers,
-JD-
> “If you include the MySQL server in your non Open Source application, you need a commercial licence for the MySQL server”
If by “include” they mean “distribute it along with your application”, as opposed to “include the source code in the application’s code”, they are wrong. GPL is GPL, you can’t take away any of the freedoms the GPL gives.
(btw, a nice summary of the GPL can be found at http://digitalrights.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=… )
The same for the drivers: I suppose the C language library is statically linked into your code, so you either have to GPL your code or buy a commercial licence in that case. But an ODBC driver is not linked to your code IIRC, so they seem to be wrong about that too.
http://openacs.org/philosophy/why-not-mysql.html
I think firebirdsql and postgresql they have a future
interbase worked on VMS clusters some 10 – 15 years ago
Borland dumbified interbase made it look more like Dbase not like a relational engine.
The next things firebird needs : clustering , 64 bits
oprimisations (Hammer,Itanic,Sparc,Power – all 64 bits micros)
for huge memory usage > 4G , some more work on the SuperServer
engine (multithreaded – more like oracle) …
* GPL or commercial liscense (as you like)
* well-documented on official site, numerous other sites and on newsgroups
* relatively easy to install on a variety of platforms (so far I’ve only done Win and Lin)
* good bet that it’ll be around in 20, 30, 50 years (if the world survives that long)
* many programming language bindings
* steady development ensures longterm growth
* most likely in the ‘top 3’ databases in the world if measured by number of active installations
* InnoDB makes for smooth transition to and from Oracle (so I’m told)
* it’s solid. (It just plain works.)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is quality software.
As a poster stated.
Yes if I wanted to GPL my program then I would be free to distribute MySQL with it without any charges. However that isn’t an option for me, so I am stuck paying the $220 charge as described. I don’t see how that works within the confines of the GPL, but as another posted noted that’s exactly what the MySQL license on their license page says. Is that a violation of the intent of the GPL? I don’t know and I don’t care. I am not going to purposefully violate the plain text license sitting on their page because I don’t think it’s right.
Interbase does sound much more interesting, I will have to give it another shot I guess. I tried it many moons ago, heck I was running the Solaris64 binary on an Ultra 1 a good while ago for kicks (one of the few 64 bit binaries I could get my hands on to impress my friends).
Matt,
I agree with you, it’s not just on the license page either, there are other places where they reiterate the point that if you are using their products with a closed source application, then you have to pay the license, if not for MySQL itself, then at least for drivers.
This may be unenforcable under the terms of the GPL, but personally I wouldn’t risk it without first consulting a lawyer who knows about such things, AND getting confirmation from the Free Software Foundation.
so the win32 port of posgress is coming along.. ok.. is it going to be like apache 1.3 on win32? how many versions will it take before its fully stable? i have trhe same concerns with the firebird rewrite.. complete rewrites are sometimes not the best road to trod. i wont trust _either_ rdbms running on win32 for at least a few versions.
The Win32 port of PostgreSQL is not a rewrite. It is a port. They have been implementing the required lowlevel semantics to make it function properly on Win32. I brought up the time-line about being “production ready” because any time you have to do a major port, new code is involved and it’s certainly possible that some seemingly minor detail didn’t get translated properly. Whlie unlikely, it’s certainly plausible. This is where the devil is in the details and thus my slight hesitation about it being “production ready” right away. I do know for a fact that their testing is including powerfail testing to ensure the transaction logs are journaling properly and that recovery is accurate and complete.
At for the question about the RedHat database, that is PostgreSQL with some extra utilities thrown in.
The Ib Phoenix web site has all the info you need.
http://www.ibphoenix.com
check it out 🙂
The Win32 port of PostgreSQL is not a rewrite. It is a port. They have been implementing the required lowlevel semantics to make it function properly on Win32.
firebird 1.5 is a rewrite from c to c++
Has anyone tried a database from RedHat?
Yes, like stated above, it is just PostgreSQL, and only works on RH7,8, and Advanced Server (I think). YOu can’t use it on any other OS, at least not installing it the easy way. It was some very nice GUI admin tools, better than anything else I’ve seen for PostgreSQL, but again the lock in to RH sucks and you’re probably better off going wiht pure PostgreSQL.
for thouse who want to test it
Please Help us with beta testing :
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=9028
ChangeLog from previous Beta :
http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=146229