Home > KDE > Evans Data: Linux Developers Prefer KDE Evans Data: Linux Developers Prefer KDE Submitted by Richard Moore 2003-08-05 KDE 83 Comments A recent study by analyst Evans Data concluded that KDE has a small edge, preferred over Gnome among Linux developers 65% vs 56% (with some respondents using both). About The Author David Adams Follow me on Twitter @david_adams 83 Comments 2003-08-05 10:03 pm Is 600 people enough of a sample to base a study on a piece of software that 100,000s of people use? 2003-08-05 10:03 pm Ever tried to create a new file association in GNOME? Its painlessly easy with KDE. Kudos to their expertise. 2003-08-05 10:03 pm I wonder how this is affected by the choice of language. 2003-08-05 10:04 pm Being mostly a windows user and only doing this once or twice in KDE and never in Gnome can you explain how it’s easier? KDE is way harder than Windows for doing this, from what I recall. 2003-08-05 10:05 pm I’m not really suprised. Though I do think there si still a lot KDE cando to make development even easier. 2003-08-05 10:12 pm I use OpenBox here and not much else. There must be others who don’t use either Gnome or KDE. 2003-08-05 10:32 pm how many people read the headline and saw… 65% vs 56% and thought. oh boy. another crackpot. 2003-08-05 10:41 pm i’ve been using fluxbox for over a year now. it’s fast, and clean. no icons everywhere. 2003-08-05 10:48 pm Ther are lots of things that could go into coming up with whether it is statistically significant or not. The method of data collection is probably most important. Where was the data collected. What questions were asked? In short, are all likely factors which affect the use of GNOME or KDE taken into account. Things like, were do you work. (If you work at Ximian, you are likely to use GNOME). Which distribution do you use? Where are you from? Europe, USA??? Many polls are done and the scientific bases are usually questionable. A survey needs to ask many questions, much more than which desktop do you use? The survey was not thoroughly documented on the site. It seems they only published the results. So I will reserve comment. 2003-08-05 10:48 pm <right-click> on file and select “Open with…” or “Edit File Type…” Windows might seem easier to you now, but I’m sure when you have the same level of experience with Linux it will be at least as easy as windows. Possibly far more efficient, depending on what you use it for. 2003-08-05 10:48 pm …has standardised on KDE for computers that have linux running. They upgraded from a really old Slackware to Redhat 9. They keep a minimal install with KDM KDE and whatever is needed to run programs such as Netbeans. These installations are basically used to teach basic unix skills. 2003-08-05 10:53 pm Anybody who prefers coding for Win32 to coding for Qt/KDE needs to have their head examined. Win32 is simply the second worst API I’ve ever seen, and pretty much represents everything that is wrong with the commercial software development world… 2003-08-05 10:53 pm I’m actually surprised that the two are so close. 65 vs 56 is hardly a blowout. Also, Gnome 2 wasn’t really useable until 2.2 (my opinion) and KDE easily blew away Gnome 1.4 (again, my opinion). In my eyes it is largely a question of maturity. Gnome 2 is relatively immature compared to KDE. Gnome 2.0 felt incomlete to me. Gnome 2.2 was still missing a few things, but was a HUGE step forward. Things really seem to be coming together for Gnome. More and more, it is becoming a question of which approach you prefer rather than which is “better”. P.S. As Debian unstable user, the file open/save dialog has become somewhat of a non-issue. The maintainer added Ximian’s patches (from XD2). While not the GTK+ 2.4 dialog it seems much nicer than the old Gnome 2 dialog. a picture I found of the new dialog: http://julien.portalier.com/divers/debian-gtk2-filselector.png 2003-08-05 11:06 pm Quote – “Anybody who prefers coding for Win32 to coding for Qt/KDE needs to have their head examined. Win32 is simply the second worst API I’ve ever seen, and pretty much represents everything that is wrong with the commercial software development world…” Just because you are coding for Windodws does not mean you must use the Windows API directly; RAD tools make the process much easier. 2003-08-05 11:06 pm Why KDE and Gnome? I use Fluxbox and am perfectly content with it. Also, it tends to look cool… http://www.fluxtrap.net/misc/linux-fluxbox-3.png 2003-08-05 11:14 pm Gnome > KDE 2003-08-05 11:18 pm Gnome sucks. How the hell are you supposed to line up the icons on the taskbar or desktop, other than letting Gnome do it be alphabetical order? If there’s a way to do it, I haven’t found it yet, therefore: Fluxbox > KDE > Gnome 2003-08-05 11:20 pm Uhm… I’ve been awake for about 26 hours straight… And I’m not sure if I’ve got those > signs right… Anyway, KDE is better than Gnome, but Fluxbox kicks all their asses. 2003-08-05 11:29 pm > Gnome sucks. How the hell are you supposed to line up the > icons on the taskbar or desktop, other than letting Gnome do > it be alphabetical order? Has changed in gnome 2.3. The desktop now has a grid. I like KDE and use GNOME. So I don’t like this stupid desktop-war. But I think KDE ist to overloaded. Example: Try to empty the trash. right mouse click and “Whow, so much to choose, but whre is empty trash?”. Keep it simple and it works. KDE is great. Had used it from version 1 to 3.1. But now found gnome. 2003-08-05 11:32 pm I am not a Linus developer, strictus sensu, but I prefer kde apps generally and the cut & paste of the klipper. Thi cut & paste and the apps one has on kde must be one of the reasons for the preference of kde. Gnome2 has a very fast gui and the emailer (evolution) is really nice for html email but not without cut & paste from kde apps … , can’t they try to solve this cut&paste issue ? I use ICEwm 50% of the time but … 2003-08-05 11:46 pm >>Try to empty the trash. right mouse click and “Whow, so much to choose, but whre is empty trash?”.<< It’s on the second choice (Empty Trash Bin), right after the first (Open). 2003-08-05 11:54 pm KDE > Fluxbox^50 Fluxbox and all the *box derivates are just windows managers, pretty usless if you actually want to do something productive. WM = Usless by itself. Most people that use lightweight WM’s end up using KDE applications anyway. kthxbi 2003-08-06 12:02 am Er, no. I don’t have any KDE/Qt apps on this computer. I did have before, until I reinstalled it. I use Gentoo, I know what’s on my system. I use more Gtk/Gnome based apps, (because Gnome is on my system, I just don’t use it). Gaim, Mozilla, irssi, slypheed, gkrellm, Eterm, aterm, gFTP, jEdit, gVim, XMMS, mplayer, and a smattering of games. Where are the KDE apps? I’m just as productive using Fluxbox. What’s wrong Grant, scared of losing your precious desktop icons, or having to edit a few config files by hand? God forbid, do you even know Linux has a CLI? 2003-08-06 12:19 am The article topic reads as: A recent study by analyst Evans Data concluded that KDE has a small edge, preferred over Gnome among Linux developers 65% vs 56% (with some respondents using both). The actually page being referred to for the article body actually does not mention the word developers once. It may seem like a small point, but the article in question is referring to “respondants” which could be anyone. “Developers” would be a small subset of “respondants.” It could be that “developers” despise KDE (which I doubt…it is just an example) and actually love Gnome. Please, when citing a reference for statistics, please make sure the labels are correct. It can actually make a really big difference in interpretation. 2003-08-06 12:27 am Is there really much of a point to debating which is better. The beautiful thing about Linux is the freedom to choose. Personally, I prefer Gnome (esp. with XD2). KDE is just seems cluttered. Yes, you have options galore with KDE, but 99% of what I find myself doing in Linux is handled through Gnome just as easily (actually easier than KDE since Gnome has such a simple interface). What it really boils down to is preference…don’t jump down someone’s throat because they don’t like the desktop you prefer. We are all on the same side here (at least most of us) – i.e. Long Live Linux & death to Microsoft. 2003-08-06 12:35 am Plenty enough, the quality of this statistic mostly depend on the quality of their sample and how they reach them. 2003-08-06 12:57 am KDE/Qt is loads better as a development platform than GNOME/gtk.. often, you have to mess with 100’s of libs with GNOME/gtk to get work done.. of course, plain C programmers will prefer GNOME/gtk, but coming from a MFC world, Qt is loads better than gtk. 2003-08-06 1:30 am Thanks for the info. It’s been awhile since I’ve booted into MDK. BTW, XP is exactly the same in that respect. <to bad this broke down into a KDE vs. Gnome debate> 2003-08-06 1:43 am What’s wrong Grant, scared of losing your precious desktop icons, or having to edit a few config files by hand? God forbid, do you even know Linux has a CLI? While everyone appreciates your personal attacks, please grow up. PS: What’s wrong UUi, afraid of having a productive desktop environment, afraid you won’t have anything to do after fiddling with your stupid config files endlessly? God forbid, do you even use your computer for anything besides gay porn? 2003-08-06 1:44 am >> Gnome sucks. How the hell are you supposed to line up the icons on the taskbar or desktop, other than letting Gnome do it be alphabetical order? >> And that’s why Gnome sucks?? Little problems like that are there to be fixed, and I remember one of the top gnome developers did have that problem on the list of things needing to be fixed. 2003-08-06 1:50 am PS: What’s wrong UUi, afraid of having a productive desktop environment, afraid you won’t have anything to do after fiddling with your stupid config files endlessly? God forbid, do you even use your computer for anything besides gay porn? Yeah, gay porn with your dad in it. 2003-08-06 1:57 am Do any of you really think we care what window manager you use? Pfftt…as far as I’m concerned, they are all the same. X is what matters in my opinion. And I think it has to be rewritten and redesigned all over again. Regards, Mystilleef 2003-08-06 2:02 am This title is pretty misleading, should read “Evans Data: More Linux Developers Prefer KDE”. 2003-08-06 2:27 am I don’t support KDE due to the QT being GPL instead of LGPL. If you are going to go on and on about having an open platform, then it has to be open to proprietary developers as well. The fact that all proprietary developers have to pay Troll Tech for use of QT is my main gripe with KDE. Technically, I think KDE is designed well and is more advanced than GNOME. But I do prefer the GNOME HIG to the KDE overload of options UI. 2003-08-06 3:12 am >>>> >> Gnome sucks. How the hell are you supposed to line up the icons on the taskbar or desktop, other than letting Gnome do it be alphabetical order? >> And that’s why Gnome sucks?? Little problems like that are there to be fixed, and I remember one of the top gnome developers did have that problem on the list of things needing to be fixed. >>>> Yeah, but how long is it taking to correct the little things. I like Gnome2 because it’s lighter on the system resources than KDE, but I use KDE because I find Gnome to still be unusable. Gripes about usablility… 1. Draging a file from one window to another or from a window to the desktop will do a full copy instead of asking if you want to copy, move or link. This can’t be hard to implement, but how long has it been missing for??? 2. There should be a grid alignment feature for the desktop icons. 2a. Sorting the files based on multiple columns would be a nice feature to have for both desktops. For example, sort first on date and then filename… Call it “Advanced Sort”. 3. The file dialog does suck. 4. With metacity, I can’t toggle maximize vertically or toggle maximize horizontallly. I once looked at the code and I though of adding it in, but didn’t have time. I would also like to set up hot keys for these actions. 5. Menu editing sucks, except now in XD2 you can edit your personal menu directly by right clicking on the menu items. How about global menu configuration for all users? Furthermore, when you install a new application, it’s hard to make a menu entry for it if a category that you want to put it in doesn’t exist. Life is not that easy for the developer in this case. 6. Konqueror handles ftp gracefully and almost transparently. You can login to a ftp server and just drage files to your desktop or another window. 7. It would be nice when traversing windows using Alt-tab if you can ignore the iconified windows. Icewm can be configure to do this. 8. Managing printers and printing from a gtk/gnome ap is not as graceful as in KDE. 9. Being able to create new devices on the desktop is not possible with Nautilus as it is with Konquror. 10. Gnome needs something like kdesu!!! I have XD2 on a SuSE 8.2 system, and when you launch the Yast2 configuration tool for the first time, you have to wait for a loooong time before the password prompt appears. That might be because of kdeinit. For now I like to use KDE and use the Gtk apps which I prefer (evolution, gaim, mozilla). This works fine because there is not “gnomeinit” that needs to be started for the apps, so they lauch quick enough. Gtk in KDE works well, but KDE in gnome does not. That’s the fault of KDE, though. Oh, and I might add that C++ is a much better way of programing apps than C. What makes C++ superior is that it does OO in the true way and handles object deletion correctly. With C, you have to pay much more attention to freeing memory, and thus it makes it more cumbersome for GUI apps. 2003-08-06 3:15 am Of course that’s mainly because QT is GPL only, Gtk is LGPL. Before you rant about how commercial guys like me are exploiting free software. I’m not talking about commercial software. I’m talking about free games and things that are ‘free’ to use and play, but not open source. Other than that and KDE’s apparent need to reinvent the wheel constantly I like KDE. I think KDE and Gnome both have some great strengths. But KDE is really of no use to me anyway, as every program that’s central to my productivity is a Gnome App anyway :p 2003-08-06 3:21 am While all of your points are subjectively valid, they’re also subjectively invalid. Many of the things you consider a fault, many people like Havoc Pennington and others consider a feature. The big mantra of Gnome is simplicity as much as possible. That means not providing everything and the kitchen sink to the user. But providing a consistent interface. Things like ‘maximize horizontally’ or ‘maximize vertically’ are not commonly used desktop features. (statistically speaking across all desktops) Less is more, more is less type of deal. At least you’re kind enough to specifically point out the issues you have with it instead of the usally trollish, “It stinks because I say so!”. 2003-08-06 3:23 am “Oh, and I might add that C++ is a much better way of programing apps than C. What makes C++ superior is that it does OO in the true way and handles object deletion correctly. With C, you have to pay much more attention to freeing memory, and thus it makes it more cumbersome for GUI apps.” Can we please avoid language wars? Each language has it’s properly suited niche. Each one has it’s advantages and disadvantages. Let’s just let sleeping dogs lie, um k? 2003-08-06 4:24 am Man, that is so ugly. 2003-08-06 6:10 am > But I think KDE ist to overloaded. Example: Try to empty the trash. right mouse click and “Whow, so much to choose, but whre is empty trash?”. Keep it simple and it works. Funny example: A standard GNOME 2.2 has even more entries in the trashcan context menu than a standard KDE 3.1. Btw, KDE/HEAD has only three entries for a long time. 2003-08-06 6:23 am I do not want to engage in silly flamewars (my car is bigger than yours), but correct a few points of “i_code_too_much”. First of all, the “grid align” for desktop icons is in 2.3, so no point in discussing that. To his other “gripes about usability”: 1. Draging a file from one window to another or from a window to the desktop will do a full copy instead of asking if you want to copy, move or link. This can’t be hard to implement, but how long has it been missing for??? Actually, the default action is move, not copy (unless it’s a move between different physical storages, then it’s a copy). If you want to be asked, just use the middle mouse button while dragging. 2. There should be a grid alignment feature for the desktop icons. As I said, there is. 2a. Sorting the files based on multiple columns would be a nice feature to have for both desktops. For example, sort first on date and then filename… Call it “Advanced Sort”. That’s not a usability issue, that’s a feature that you personally would like to see. Personally, I disagree with you about this. You have the option to sort by folders first and if you sort by type (for example), it will still sort by name as second criteria. I don’t see what you would gain by making it more complicated. 3. The file dialog does suck. Yes, it does. Tell me news. 4. With metacity, I can’t toggle maximize vertically or toggle maximize horizontallly. I once looked at the code and I though of adding it in, but didn’t have time. I would also like to set up hot keys for these actions. Actually, there are shortcuts for this which you can assign with gconf-editor. I don’t think it acts as a toggle though, maybe that should be fixed. However, the feature seems to be there. 5. Menu editing sucks Menu editing will most probably be improved once the cross desktop spec is implemented. This is a very good development. 6. Konqueror handles ftp gracefully and almost transparently. And so does Nautilus. An authentification dialog is still missing, but that’s beeing worked on. You can easily connect “manually” to an FTP server if you know the syntax and then place a bookmark for it. I use FTP through Nautilus all the time. 8. Managing printers and printing from a gtk/gnome ap is not as graceful as in KDE. That should be a work in progress. The printer stuff in XD2 is really cool but I can’t judge it, as I print almost never. 10. Gnome needs something like kdesu!!! True. It works like a charm in Red Hat though. I do not know why this can’t be used on SuSE, but I assume there should be a general, Red Hat independent solution. I’m sure you have good reasons to use KDE and it’s no shame that you aren’t very well informed about GNOME features. However, I do get a little bit tired of people constantly and unintentional spreading misinformation about something because they don’t know it well but still feel the need to comment on it. As for the language war, besides beeing completely off topic, don’t forget that Gtk can be used by many languages. If you use Python, you don’t have to worry about releasing memory AFAIK and soon there will be Mono (aka “tehevilmicrosoftsponsoredjavaripoff”) which will make programming even more convenient. Of course there are also very good Gtk C++ bindings. About the original study, I’m surprised by their comment that GNOME and KDE would have been head to head before. My impression was that KDE was leading by a large margin and that it’s actually a success for GNOME that it’s almost head to head again. Especially considering that GNOME 2 is not really complete yet as opposed to KDE 2/3. I do think that KDE is still far ahead in terms of completeness, but I still like GNOME 2 better. The best thing about it is, that there is a LOT of stuff to look forward to. 2003-08-06 6:30 am ….KDE is much more popular than GNOME. we are very pleased with KDE and don’t need any other desktop. if we need one, that probably will not be gnome. in short, fuck gnome. cheers migy. –: ) 2003-08-06 6:33 am We need unity not this pointless bickering. If there is something in GNOME taht you want in KDE or vice versa than post that item as a wish list in the bugzilla of the appropriate project. We should at least compare GNOME/KDE to Windows because that would actually have a point, it might attract new users to Linux. The current comparrisons can at best just drag a few people from GNOME to KDE or vice versa which were already using linux. 2003-08-06 6:34 am What is with the obsession of these people, espousing about “waste” and “no icons”. Jesus, it adds nothing to this discussion. Such an obsession. 2003-08-06 6:52 am You might run out of doctors to have those developers heads examine. Just a question, if you made money out of a 10-year-old software using WIn32, would you spend all the time and money porting it to Qt? I doubt it. It wouldn’t make any business sense. Precisely why most of the worlds apps in one way or another depend on Win32. 2003-08-06 7:13 am Sorry, but I have to say: “Fuck yourself!” Just because YOU don’t like GNOME, dosn’t mean that EVERYBODY doesn’t like GNOME (it is a matter of choice, freedom, individuality). I prefere GNOME2.2 (on Debian SID) but I’m glad that there’s also KDE. I wish this two DEs will kick off M$ its OS/DE (the real enemy of freedom). Well, sorry for the “Fuck yourself!” it’s not only meant to you! It’t to everyone who’s arguments is: – X is a lot better than Y, so we don’t need Y! – W is crap – You can’t use V, because it is not that easy like Z – … With Linux/***BSD/HURD/… we all have the choice, so lets enjoy that! H.a.n.d. Golum 2003-08-06 7:17 am Both is not my favourite DE but current situation just force me to stick to KDE especially for my web application development. I hate Gnome more due to it’s inconsistency of the GUI concept. Well…. although I hate Windows too but I still think they just the best GUI I ever used (I just use Mac OSX few times only which doesn’t make me suitable to comment on it). Maybe MS carried a detail study on the way the majority of human being do their work. I’m still hoping a better DE for Linux or maybe a major improvement on UI consistency in Gnome and faster KDE. To me EDE is good because it is the fastest DE for Linux but the application available is not as much as KDE. Those that cannot differentiate between DE and WM please follow this link http://www.xwinman.org and please stop comparing WM and DE because it just as same as comparing between orange and apple. 2003-08-06 7:26 am With Linux/***BSD/HURD/… we all have the choice, so lets enjoy that! Golum Couldn’t agree more 2003-08-06 7:33 am the more I feel Qt is a rip off of the BeAPI. (without the multithreaded backend) 2003-08-06 7:46 am I don’t know why people use any other UI than KDE for the majority of what they do on Linux. I’ve recently started really using Linux more than at any other time in my life and i’ve found that KDE is by far the most customizeable and easiest to use UI and also has really good graphics. Whenever I look to see a screenshot of a linux distro I see a screenshot done in KDE in like 95% of the screenshots. Gnome hasn’t impressed me much. The only good thing i’ve seen about it is the sidebar on the windows (like on win2k and xp) that says how many items are in the window and how big they are. KDE is simply the best ui. I tried using Gnome for a while and didn’t like it a lot and then tried windowmaker to get the NeXT like ui but gave up on that too. Kudo’s to KDE… your the reason i use Linux now. 2003-08-06 7:53 am > As of this survey, however, KDE has jumped ahead of GNOME by > a significant margin for the first time. One reason for the > modest decrease in interest in GNOME is that it has been > repeatedly redefined and repositioned, during which time its > feature set has become somewhat stagnant. KDE 3.1 and GNOME 2.2 were released at roughly the same time and are equivalent in terms of their chronology. GNOME 2.4 is scheduled for mid-september and many betas have been released already (as per the usual GNOME release process). What about KDE 3.2, I haven’t heard so much as a whisper about it. Where is this “interest” that GNOME lacks and KDE has. GNOME has a far more exciting timeframe than KDE (IMHO). Also, GNOME 2.6 is scheduled for Spring 2004 according to their release map. Epiphany, new open/save dialogs and improved performance are just some of the goodies lining up. 2003-08-06 7:58 am “What about KDE 3.2, I haven’t heard so much as a whisper about it.” You can find the release plan for 3.2 on kde.org. It is there since many many months. There is also a weekly news letter about the current development. Also on kde.org. Release it in December. 2003-08-06 8:01 am “The fact that all proprietary developers have to pay Troll Tech for use of QT is my main gripe with KDE. ” Yes, everybody should have the right to make money out of others work without having to pay them anything. 2003-08-06 8:08 am A perfect choice Well, for users, dunno about developers… 2003-08-06 8:28 am I am by no means evangelical about which DE I use. I have really tried to use GNOME, but in the end it frustrates me and I go back to KDE. In my opinion GTK apps don’t look as good as Qt apps. That’s just my opinion, no need for a flame war about that. But there are serious useability problems with GNOME as it stands today. Some of them, like the file manager, are well known, and will be fixed in later versions. Other problems seem part of the GNOME philosophy, and will never be fixed. Still, it’s good that everyone has a choice. I prefer KDE and use that. If others prefer GNOME they can use that. I just wish somebody would write a universal theme editor, which would work on both of them! 2003-08-06 8:43 am i’m not sure about other distros but on gentoo we have what you you are looking for as regards point 10(“Gnome needs something like kdesu!!!) emerge gnomesu et voila! 2003-08-06 9:15 am The whole “KDE is better because it uses C++/Gnome is better because it uses C” debate is completely moot. You can write Gnome apps in C++ just fine (and in a much more C++y way, no moc and stuff), and you can write for KDE in C (without the funny g_object macros, afaik). What’s even more important: Neither C nor C++ are the best languages to write desktop apps. These apps typically wait for user input most of the time anyway, it’s wasted effort to deal with all the low level stuff except in a few key areas, and not randomly crashing is quite hight on the list of features of useable software. And both Qt/KDE and Gtk/Gnome have many bindings to more productive languages, so get over it. 2003-08-06 10:27 am “Just a question, if you made money out of a 10-year-old software using WIn32, would you spend all the time and money porting it to Qt?” It might be worthwhile to port it as QT is multi-platform (Win, *nix and Mac) and WIN32 isn’t so if you have a good app lication then why not increase of your potential market of buyers? Its the same argument for developers who develop IE only websites. If 10% of the world population cannot use the site, then they are missing out on millions of potential customers. There is too much short-sighted visions in this world if IT especially when the tools (QT, Java etc) to develop are out there. 2003-08-06 11:29 am As many people have stated here, KDE or GNOME are not the only choice. Though I have a nearly full KDE installation on my harddisk, I only use k3b (for burning) und kopete (the KDE IM client) regularly. . Konqueror is not better than Opera or Mozilla (though it’s not OSS) . KMail is not better than Mozilla Mail (ever tried GnuPG with kmail? Enigmail works like a charm) . Kate/KDevelop/whatever is not better than XEmacs or vi if you do not want to program only with KDE . Evolution is an more an operating system in itself . both C (GNOME) and C++ (KDE) are not very charming programming languages (especially for GUI purposes, which is my very, very, very own heavily biased opinion. Anyway, if you want to, just try one of the many GUI toolkits for Python and compare that to the effort necessary to implement the same with C/C++) . The native KDE/GNOME interfaces for xine are not better than the official ones (I suspect, it is the same for mplayer) There is so many software more for GNU/Linux, KDE/GNOME aficionados tend to forget that in their flame wars… At least, it’s not my goal to create a good-looking, consistent system but one which makes working fun and easy. 2003-08-06 11:44 am I like KDEs look and feel but GNOME is the better desktop and I am moving off KDE and picking up GTK+. This 600 person report doesn’t seem too accurate to me. Dont get me wrong I liked KDE a lot but every time they update QT I have a holy mess trying to get everything working again– 2003-08-06 11:46 am > What about KDE 3.2, I haven’t heard so much as a whisper about it. An Alpha release will be available in around a month from now. > GNOME has a far more exciting timeframe than KDE (IMHO). Shorter release cycles mean also less new features and spending/loosing more time in feature freezes. > Also, GNOME 2.6 is scheduled for Spring 2004 according to their release map. Epiphany, new open/save dialogs and improved performance are just some of the goodies lining up. It’s correct that new filedialog will finally come in 2004 but I think that Epiphany will be already included in GNOME 2.4. 2003-08-06 12:01 pm Nobody loses time in a feature freeze- just branch the code… 2003-08-06 12:09 pm And who does test all the branches then? 2003-08-06 12:13 pm Hé ben… Linux bring us choices and you keep fighting to force other peoples to believe that a given desktop is better than another. I’m happy to have choices in general, that’s what I call freedom. I’m glad to install Linux and Windows and Beos and BSD and whatever you want. I’m glad to have the choice to buy a PC or/and a Mac or/and an Amiga (well..). So, we have KDE and Gnome, you can install both and when you do this the majority of applications run in one or another environment. If you want to know, I use Windowmaker on Gentoo but I’m not gonna flame someone because he uses Windows with Litestep or a MAC. Read Nietzsche and Epicure, enjoy Zen meditation and think again. But well, who am I, it’s only my point of view. 2003-08-06 12:55 pm > In my opinion GTK apps don’t look as good as Qt apps. That’s > just my opinion, no need for a flame war about that. Well, I’m sorry but it looks like you may have just started one. You can’t make comments like these without expecting the worst. Anyway, visit art.gnome.org and tell me that you can’t find any attractive GNOME themes. Sure, raleigh and motif aren’t exactly “lickable” but these are just the *defaults* that GNOME is distributed with. > But there are serious useability problems with GNOME as it > stands today. Some of them, like the file manager, are > well known, and will be fixed in later versions. Usability problems with the file manager? Perhaps you’d like to tell us what you are referring to rather than saying that they are “well known” and insulting people (like me) who do follow GNOME development closely and don’t know what you mean. GNOME uses a much simpler user interface design than KDE and uses the principal of “good defaults” in a very powerful -yet easy to use- way (IMHO).In most areas, it has been able to do this without trading off customisation to much of an extent. > Other problems seem part of the GNOME philosophy, and will > never be fixed. I won’t respond to this, troll. 2003-08-06 12:56 pm I like GNOME, it has many features that I like but I prefer to work with KDE. KDE is a great desktop and QT is very simple to code for. The one thing they both need to work on is the HIG, once we get a clear HIG format written then everything will be complete. 2003-08-06 1:00 pm > I like GNOME, it has many features that I like but I prefer > to work with KDE. KDE is a great desktop and QT is very > simple to code for. The one thing they both need to work on > is the HIG, once we get a clear HIG format written then > everything will be complete. I do believe GNOME already has this, and a very mature HIG too: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/ and KDE made a start, however looking very pale in comparison: http://usability.kde.org/ 2003-08-06 1:31 pm Hi.. its nice to hear how people like kde/gnome/flux/weimei/fvwm/etc ad nauseum. The article isnt about users. Its about developers. 2003-08-06 1:37 pm “Sorry, but I have to say: “Fuck yourself!” Just because YOU don’t like GNOME, dosn’t mean that EVERYBODY doesn’t like GNOME (it is a matter of choice, freedom, individuality).” golum, i declared my own opinion. i didn’t say that there should not be gnome, and i didn’t talk for everybody. i said i like kde, i like it much more than gnome. so i use KDE and i FUCK GNOME. and i think i have a right to say it. btw, i already fuck myself sometimes. its fun. try it with a joystick. the ones with vibration are the best. –; ) 2003-08-06 2:05 pm Well, here is my take on the matter. I think Redhat has got it right in many ways. Why bother with GUI programming in C++. I think they use Python for their stuff now. Right tool for the job. I cannot imagine what you benefit using C++ to make a GUI, besides complexity. The backend, which is what GTK+/Qt is NOT used for, well, you are all the same. Bindings become very important. That Redhat can release a huge suite of tools without having to use C is a testament to what the GNOME guys always said. It doesn’t really matter which you use. The mor language agnostic a deskto, the better. How many languages do people code in on Windows. VB, C++, Java, C, C#. This does not seem to make the damn proggies look too inconsistent, unless they want them to be cross platform or something. I think Linux has bigger problems than that. We need a decent accelerated desktop. DirectFB needs us. The reason the Linux interface is slow is we do not have something like DirectFB using those graphics cards of ours to draw the desktop well. We need more abstraction from the underlying operating system. 2003-08-06 2:16 pm Depends. In Germany they usually ask 2000 ppl to predict the national elections and the results are about the most accurate that can be had. So, If you choose wisely where to ask, it can be fairly accurate. 2003-08-06 2:25 pm Who is the troll here? I have my own opinion about which DE I prefer to use. I explicitly stated that if other people feel differently that’s fine. Firstly, yes I do find Qt apps look more attractive. That’s not a troll, that’s an opinion. I’ve also looked at GNOME themes. For the most part, they all looked the same! If you don’t like the way GNOME looks, you have to use another theme. Both Windows and KDE let you adjust the colours of all the elements individually. And don’t get me started on the difficulty of actually installing a GNOME theme. Intuitive, it ain’t. You yourself admit that the default themes don’t look so hot. I’m sorry, but default matters. That’s what people judge you on. Ask Eugenia. I fundamentally disagree with the whole philosophy of GNOME’s simplicity. To me, that translated into: How the hell do I….? I don’t want features hidden from me. Put them in an ‘advanced’ tab if you have to, but at least let me get at them. Again, that’s my opinion. If you prefer the simplicity then use GNOME. I had a myriad of little aggravations. None of them were individually enough to make me use KDE again, but added up, they made a less then satisfying experience. For instance: I wanted to set up an icon on the desktop that would mount a remote disk and open a file browser in that directory. It’s a couple of clicks in KDE. If it can be done in GNOME, I never found out. 2003-08-06 3:16 pm “Yes, everybody should have the right to make money out of others work without having to pay them anything.” This has nothing to do with making money out of KDE. Propietary developers could just as easily make programs that *don’t* support KDE and sell them just fine. We are talking desktop standards here. It shouldn’t cost anything to use a standard. Besides, the GPL encourages others to make money off of your work. Look at Red Hat and SuSE and the other commercial distros. These people are selling GPL software. Most of the developrs of the software included in the distros don’t get anything. If you have a problem with this, then perhaps you should be rallying behind propietary software since that’s the only way you are garunteed that you get money from your work. 2003-08-06 4:45 pm I used gnome for a long time. I liked gnome and I still like certain gnome apps. I since have discovered XFCE. This is the fastest easiest desktop I have found. It’s slick. It’s like CDE only with usability upgrades. I particularly like XFCE3 because of the speed. XFCE4 looks much prettier, but on my P2 233, speed is what matters. As for KDE vs. GNOME. I liked KDE 3.1 It was the best one that I had used. The problem is that KDE lacks galeon. I like galeon a lot and it just doesn’t blend well with KDE. Konqueror seems to have more problems rendering pages than galeon does. As for C vs C++. I prefer C++. I prefer GNOME. Hence, Gtkmm. It’s a sweet API. It uses some of the most pure C++ I have used. It even uses namespaces to store its objects. I recommend any C++ developers try using Gtkmm. I think it does its job well. As for the including too many libraries problem: `pkg-config gtkmm-2.0 –cflags –libs` You can even put it in your Makefile…see? no prob. 2003-08-06 6:02 pm “XFCE4 looks much prettier, but on my P2 233, speed is what matters.” Hmm, I have Cel 266 and XFCE4 works wonderfully for me. Well, maybe I’m just not spoiled with (flux/black/whatever)boxes 🙂 2003-08-06 7:05 pm > and KDE made a start, however looking very pale > in comparison: > > http://usability.kde.org/ That is the homepage of the usability project, not the actual documentation of KDEs UI guide lines. Try this url instead: http://developer.kde.org/documentation/library/ui.html 2003-08-06 7:15 pm [quote] ….KDE is much more popular than GNOME. we are very pleased with KDE and don’t need any other desktop. if we need one, that probably will not be gnome. in short, fuck gnome. cheers migy. –: ) [/quote] Well, this doesn’t seem, as you were talking just for yourself! you didn’t write e.g.: IMHO KDE is much more popular than GNOME. I’m very pleased with KDE and don’t need any other desktop. if I need one, that probably will not be gnome. in short, fuck gnome. cheers migy. –: ) Do you feel the diffrence? Think about it! H.a.n.d. Golum (written in MozillaFirebird on Debian GNU/Linux SID with GNOME 2.2.2 on Linux-2.4.21. And I’m very happy with it 😉 ) 2003-08-06 9:34 pm Still quite inadequate. Since I started using GNOME, at 2.0, I think it is more than decent. My biggest issue should go come November. The issue of the file open/save dialog. I think people make too much of KDE’s integration, but I think the problem is that it tries to integrate too much with itself. Everything cannot be Qt. If, for example, we want to share information between applications, there should be a desktop agnostic way of doing it. Not K something. That sort of integration is what MS would be proud of today. It closes our ‘open’ platforms and leaves people at the mercy of companies like Trolltech again. Trolltech might/shall probably grow up and outlive its creators. Whilst the objectives of the current owners might not be questionable, what happens when someone buy Trolltech later and decides critical mass has been reached. If you thnk this is not possible, you are making the same mistake IBM made with Microsoft. And do not say its different. History is always much clearer from the future. Retrospective vision is 20/20 perfect. 2003-08-07 12:23 am If you want to try something a bit different from KDE & GNOME, give XFCE4 a try. It looks quite promising: fast, modular, professional GUI design without unneeded bloat, GTK-based but much cleaner looking default themes (e.g. bluecurve icons etc.) than with GNOME, and has some advanced features that especially power users may like. Though KDE may be the no. 1 desktop environment for Linux & BSD at the moment (it is just easy & reliable to use out of the box), XFCE by having quite a different GUI from KDE may serve many users well that don’t like KDE for some reason or another. Yet it is a DE, not just WM, which makes life much easier. 2003-08-07 1:25 am It’s not as user friendly, but it’s light and serves me well for my modest needs. Can’t comment on the programming situation because I’m using currently just using xlib and GL (Which is…err…interesting :>). 2003-08-07 6:28 am [quote] ….KDE is much more popular than GNOME. we are very pleased with KDE and don’t need any other desktop. if we need one, that probably will not be gnome. in short, fuck gnome. cheers migy. –: ) [/quote] “Well, this doesn’t seem, as you were talking just for yourself! you didn’t write e.g.: Do you feel the diffrence? Think about it! ” you think about it dear. “we” does not mean everybody in every context. i specifically addressed this issue in my previous reply, but you seem not to understand it. i will try to be more descriptive in my next messages with the light you shed on the level of your intelligence. now get lost. –: ) in short golum, WE think that KDE rocks, and gnome sucks. 2003-08-07 6:43 am Ok, ok, ok… keep cool 😉 in short, too: WE think that GNOME rocks, and so does KDE! (I guess you can’t live with that – but I don’t care 😉 ) And beisde, don’t worry about my intelligence! A lot of people talk like you and also mean it that way, no matter if they are KDE fans or GNOME fans, or whatever fans… H.a.n.d. Golum 2003-08-07 8:58 am i personally love GTK and GNOME, in fact, the one major gripe with KDE is that when i hit tab in a file i/o dialogue focus switches to the next widget, i love tab completion, call me lazy… yes GNOME2 still needs work, but it’s simply so much nicer than KDE.