Session 18 of the Fortnightly Q&A’s with Fleecy Moss is available here. This one has some important Q&A’s (rootless X server, self-hosted IDE, 32 or 64-bit platform, OpenGL support) and even a clue about the biggest question of
all concerning Amiga OS 4: when will it be released.
Fleecy Moss on AmigaOS 4 Release Date and More
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
64-bit OpenGL sounds good,
But can you get the 64bit drivers for your high end vid cards to youse it? Or are there any vid cards that support this?
What exactly do you think you’re talking about when you say ’64-bit OpenGL’, [email protected]?
Most of today’s video cards are at least 64 bit. I think the GeForce 4 is 128 bit.
OpenGL can work with a 64 bit RGBA floating point color space for a very, very long time now.
Fleecy did not state anything of 64-bit in relation to OpenGL.
> self-hosted IDE
Please note that Haage&Partner wants to see their software ported to AmigaOS4. This includes their excellent StormC C/C++ development package.
H&P is looking for new developers. Interested? Look here:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=811
> and even a clue about the biggest question of all
> concerning Amiga OS 4: when will it be released.
I could not find this clue.
AmigaOS4 for the Cyberstorm PPC is nearly finished. The hundred beta-testers seem very optimistic.
The full (the kernel and its new features have been demonstrated to run well since over a year ago) AmigaOS4 environment for the AmigaOne version is expected to be shown to the public in October for the first time. The consumer release will be “when it’s done”.
What’s happening with AmigaDE? There was a lot of hoopla about it 3 years ago, and now it’s as if it’s fallen off the face of the Earth. Also, what’s happening to AmigaInc, Bill McEwan (spelling) and others – its awfully silent in Amiga land (other than Pegasus and Hyperion).
> What’s happening with AmigaDE?
Amiga’s foundation partner has recently released intent2, intent is the foundation of the AmigaDE.
http://withintent.biz
Lately Amiga has been busy moving Amiga’s AmigaDE code and content to the latest revision of Intent.
> Also, what’s happening to AmigaInc, Bill McEwan
Bill McEwen is well. He has been very busy behind the scenes.
> ts awfully silent in Amiga land
Amiga employees post regularly at AmigaWorld and also note that Fleecy is Amiga’s CTO. They are quite communicative despite the heavy work their are doing behind the scenes right now.
Mike Bouma wrote:
>> and even a clue about the biggest question of all
>> concerning Amiga OS 4: when will it be released.
>
>I could not find this clue.
Article text: “We intend to show at a major mainstream show early in the new year, hopefully after we have launched AmigaOS4.0 to the Amiga community.”
So probably Q1 2004. Give or take a quarter. Or two. Maybe. ??
> “We intend to show at a major mainstream show early in
> the new year, hopefully after we have launched
> AmigaOS4.0 to the Amiga community.”
That’s not really a clue and IMO people should not read too much into that statement. It is still unknown to Hyperion (and thus to Fleecy) when the AmigaOne version of AmigaOS4.0 will be ready. The development has been progressing nicely as can be seem at the many AmigaOS4 events.
Only one thing is as good as certain, the AmigaOne version will not be ready before the Cyberstorm version.
At the following upcoming Amiga events people will probably be able to hear and see the latest developments for themselves:
Pianeta Amiga 2003 20-21th September, Empoli, Italy.
http://www.pianetaamiga.it/
The Benelux Amiga Show 2003 4-5 october, Rotterdam, The Netherlands.
http://www.beneluxamigashow.com/
AOS4 Tour goes downunder:
Sydney 4 october, Canberra 12 october, Brisbane 18 october, Melbourne still to be decided.
Aussies stay tuned at: http://www.anythingamiga.com
“excellent” is really the last word that comes into mind when
talking bout H&P-SW. AmigaWriter is allmost unusable, ArtEffect
has lots of bugs and misses important features, but SC4 is the
absolute pearl of that collection:
An old gcc, crammed together with a medicore editor and a spartanic
project-management, fine-tuned with some creamy bugs
Also note that H&P are not searching to hire a developer, bujt that it
is more like : “give us a free ride, and we might give some scraps”.
Looking back at H&P’s past (Genesis in 3.9, Amithlon), I can only
say that anybody thinking about taking up that offer needs his head
examined !
How it should be done:
Take (licence) a good editor, make sure it has a good C-mode fitting
with gcc, pack it together with a easy to install geek-gadgets distro,
and off you go.
Kronos, the company may not support your rival platform, but IMO the company produced some very good quality software I own.
AmigaOS3.9 with their latest Boingbags was IMO a good advancement offering various long overdue improvements, AmigaOS XL was a nice emulation package as well, and so IMO are ArtEffect, AmiWriter, etc.
In combination with Hyperion’s development and debugging tools (for some examples see link below) and a proper update I believe this could be a valuable addition for developers.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/features/index.php?op=r&cat_id=6&rev_…
Mike it is not about their “choice” of platform, but about their
products (which I all own).
I did have those installed in my initial Amithlon-setup, but apart
from SC4 all got removed quite fast as possible. Haven’t even
bothered to try them under MOS as they are not worth it and replacemts
are easiely available (fxPaint, MOS-SDK/MorphED).
Combine that with their track-record regarding external developers,
and you should understand my warning.
Regarding OS3.9:
I did buy 3.5 back than and consider it my biggest dissapointment in
Amiga-related products leading directly to my A2000/60 being moved to
the storage. Getting OS3.9 with Amithlon was nice, but would have been
just as much disapponting if I had bought it at full retail (OS3.9 that is).
Minor bugfixes plus lots of former SW souped up with some “it ain’t
broken, let’s fix it” is all I got from it.
Bout STC$ for OS4:
StormC4 is:
A (old) gcc
-Hyperion have their own gcc-port.
producing 68k-amiga-hunk or WOS-extended-hunk files.
-OS4 needs PPC-elf
a debugger
-GDB
relying on 68k-hunk/WOS
– …..
an editor that can’t even compete with XDME or BlacksEd
– should be easy (and mandatory) to have something like that in OS4.
a project-manager
– there are a lot of makefile related tools in gnu which should do
I am an developer (maybe not the workaholic kind
), in contrast to
you, and I did make thze jump from STC4 to “pure” gcc with a ~600k-
project, telling you that I miss/regret nothing !
“Kronos, the company may not support your rival platform, but IMO the company produced some very good quality software I own.”
Are you trolling again Mr. Bouma? Why do you even mention the “rival platform” part?
“In combination with Hyperion’s development and debugging tools (for some examples see link below) and a proper update I believe this could be a valuable addition for developers. ”
AOS4 will come with GDB right? That is one _good_ debugger and I doubt that anyone would like to use anything else. The rest of StormC consists of the editor (can be replaced by Emacs or any other open source editors) and the GCC compiler + some extras (all available as open source versions). So why would anyone want to pay for things that they can get for free (in better versions)?
” So why would anyone want to pay for things that they can get for free (in better versions)?”
Why do people buy an IDE at all? Because its nicely integrated and makes it easier than toying with the command line. It improves workflow. It keeps everything together to make project management easier.
And if StormC was to get developed further, perhaps the editor would get revamped. The GCC and debugger would almost certainly be those supplied by Hyperion. And maybe a solution for creating ReAction GUIs easily might be found. Maybe.
But its all speculation at this point.
@ Megol
> Why do you even mention the “rival platform” part?
Because it gets tiresome when certain well known rival product supporters continuously try to flamebait in reply to Amiga articles.
Take Genesi employee Nate Downes in reply to the previous Amiga news submission for example:
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=4383
Nate Downes: “Why do you always respond *AFTER* a thread has “dropped off the radar” so you can get the last word. I’ve found you do this quite often.”
Mike Bouma: “I responded when the thread was still on the frontpage.
Instead of doing your best to make yourself look stupid by making paranoid accusations, just do some simple checking first.
Mike Bouma : Posted on 2003-09-02 04:58:53
Eugenia’s news submission which moved this topic off the frontpage: Posted on 2003-09-02 10:47:56
That’s roughly 6 hours in between.”
Nate Downes: “See. You did it again Mike.”
If that’s not a clear example of flamebaiting then nothing is.
> So why would anyone want to pay for things that they can
> get for free (in better versions)?
StormC is a development package. The standard tools may already be great, but IMO there are always things to add and imporve as no developers offering is perfect.
The various StormC package releases received good ratings from various well respected Amiga magazines. Unless you think the standard free offerings will already be perfect and there is nothing left to be desired for developers (debugging/devtools/documentation/etc wise) then I agree this will probably not be of interest to you.
http://www.haage-partner.com/reviews-e.htm#StormC
Else StormC may be of value, given a chance.
And who was it this time who turned from an off-topic discussion into
a personal flame-fest ?
Yes that was you, and noone else.
Does it matter to this topic what Nate posted in another thread,
or is it just another case of pulling a thread OT after you got
yourself onto thin ice with your arguments ?
STC4 was a good thing when installing GG was a complete pain, and
compiling anything beyond console-C was worse, but these days are
over, and now it has nothing substantial to over a dedscently
prepared gcc-install.
No my post was NOT flamebait, just stating my opinion bout H&P’s
products and (lack of) buissness-ethics.
I wouldn’t consider STC even if they made a MOS-only V5 !
Do not feed the trolls.
> And who was it this time who turned from an off-topic
> discussion into a personal flame-fest ?
For me this is not personal. Various people on Genesi’s payroll (like Andre Siegel and Nate Downes) continuously state their negative views and often even wrong ‘information’ in reply to Amiga articles all of the time.
I just wanted to point out that you are a well known supporter of this platform/company and their views. I can hardly remember you post anything positive with regard to AmigaOS4 in your thousands of public messages (mostly German), always in doubt about developments and in joy of developments regarding to MOS.
Look you are involved in MorphZone and I am involved in AmigaWorld.net, so it’s clear where our preferences lie, but you won’t see me spreading FUD in MOS related threads.
> I wouldn’t consider STC even if they made a MOS-only
> V5 !
Good for you.
> Why do you even mention the “rival platform” part?
Because it gets tiresome when certain well known rival product supporters continuously try to flamebait in reply to Amiga articles.
Whatever Kronos’ personal platform preferences, his comments on Haage & Partner are not unique to MorphOS followers. I find it pretty incredible that you act like you’ve never heard of H&P’s rather spotty reputation among Amiga users, as regards their business practices.
> For me this is not personal. Various people on Genesi’s
> payroll (like Andre Siegel and Nate Downes) continuously
> state their negative views and often
> evenwrong ‘information’ in reply to Amiga articles all of
> the time.
This is – surprise, surprise – utter nonsense, of course. And the only reason why I made a comment here on OSnews.com after such a long time again, is that a certain person was trolling so BLATANTLY that I could not hold it back for a moment… My posting did not even include the word “Amiga”, but as we all know by now, some people have their own strongly distorted view of reality.
@ Jack Perry
> I find it pretty incredible that you act like you’ve
> never heard of H&P’s rather spotty reputation among
> Amiga users, as regards their business practices.
I have heard of spotty reputations with regard to H&P, Genesi, Amiga Inc, AliveMedia, Titan, Elbox, DCE, Phase5 and who not within the Amiga related market? (Maybe Hyperion and Eyetech are still pretty spotless)
But IMO there’s almost always two sides to the story and thus it’s better to judge things from your personal experiences only.
In my experience Jurgen Haage is a good businessman doing everything in his power to allow his company to survive in our small (often self-destructive) community.
But even if H&P has a “spotty reputation” this does not mean they made/make bad products. Their products received impressive scores in nearly all Amiga related magazines. Point me to reviews stating that these products were crappy.
Yet again even spotty reputations and low quality products does not have to stand in the way of success. Look at Microsoft (i.e. MSDOS to WinME).
> What’s happening with AmigaDE? There was a lot of
> hoopla about it 3 years ago, and now it’s as if
> it’s fallen off the face of the Earth.
Change in strategy.
Originally, AmigaDE was introduced as the technological basis for tomorrow’s hardware-agnostic AmigaOS. (Early 2000.)
Several months later, the Amiga SDK was released to the public. It was still announced as the toolbox from which the new AmigaOS was to emerge.
Then, AmigaOS 4 PPC was announced (St. Louis, April 1st, 2001.); Amiga DE became a seperate product.
Over the months and years, the Tao technology diminished from
* the ground-breaking techno tweak allowing for a HW independent AmigaOS; to
* the other technology road for the long-term AmigaOS perspective, alongside the short-term AmigaOS 4 PPC; to
* an embedded content environment that will some day be integrated into AmigaOS.
Just like anyone else, I don’t know what really went on behind the scenes – lack of money, cooperation, or technological perspective.
But with AmigaOS moving from (fairly “portable” by emulation) 68k to (virtually non-emulatable) PPC, the perspective for an HW independent AmigaOS went down the drain.
Reason for lots of flame wars – whether the ability to run under emulation or not would actually benefit the Amiga market or not – the fact remains that, for AmigaOS 4, you will need Amiga-licensed PPC hardware, which means that coders won’t care for any kind of HW-independence, resulting in a PPC-only software base.
Hardware independence is out of the equation, Tao intent is out of the equation.
AmigaDE brings “digital content” (tiny games, mostly) to PDA’s and PC’s equipped with the proper runtime, which might include some future version of AmigaOS.
The Amiga-specific “extensions” to the intent foundation – GUI toolkit, “Amiverse”, integrated SHEEP scripting language, desktop-level API – failed to materialize.
AmigaDE and AmigaOS are two completely seperate things, again.
@ Bouma
> > Why do you even mention the “rival platform” part?
> Because it gets tiresome when certain well known rival
> product supporters continuously try to flamebait in reply to
> Amiga articles.
you are making a connection there which only you see. The fact that Kronos supports a given platform is in no way, unless you can prove it, related to his criticism (which you call “flamebait”, since everhing that contraddicts your view is a flamebait).
The first to mention the “rival platform” has been you. Stop this trolling once and for all.
“Whatever Kronos’ personal platform preferences, his comments on Haage & Partner are not unique to MorphOS followers. I find it pretty incredible that you act like you’ve never heard of H&P’s rather spotty reputation among Amiga users, as regards their business practices.”
I have to agree that H&P’s software is nothing special. Art Effect is adequate, I supose, but every time I have tried to do something with it, I have very soon gone to another program (such as Brilliance, TVPaint, or ImageMaster) that is more functional.
AmigaWriter is a very poor word processor, and not really an Amiga program.
The presentation and distribution of Amithlon was disastrously badly handled (no manual, markup so small that no dealer would carry it).
@ Mike:
> But IMO there’s almost always two sides to the story
> and thus it’s better to judge things from your personal
> experiences only.
Correct. I payed upwards of 200 € (460,- DM back then) for a cross-update from Maxon C++ to StormC DSK 3, which was
* shipped half a year late;
* came with a photocopied manual for v1.0;
* came with a letter that “this is preliminary, full version coming ASAP” (I’m still waiting!);
* came with buggy installer scripts.
> In my experience Jurgen Haage is a good businessman
> doing everything in his power to allow his company to
> survive in our small (often self-destructive) community.
I don’t doubt Mr. Haage’s capability to keep himself afloat. I doubt that the company H&P did the Amiga market any good, all totaled.
> Their products received impressive scores in nearly
> all Amiga related magazines.
Mike, for years now everything receives impressive scores in Amiga related magazines, because there’s nothing to compare it with.
> Point me to reviews stating that these products were
> crappy.
Amiga magazines depend on the hopes of users. Do you really believe anyone would write a bad review on the only IDE AmigaOS has to offer?
@ Solar
> AmigaDE and AmigaOS are two completely seperate things,
> again.
For now they are targeted at two seperate markets. However AmigaOS4 and the AmigaDE already share various source code and for the long run it is planned for the two solutions to merge into one modular service based architecture which should be easily configurable/scalable from Smartphone to Server.
Ya know, I looked at this thread last night. I was going to correct the first posters misunderstanding of what Fleecy said regarding OpenGL, but then went “Nope, not my thread. I’ll be nice and not feed the trolls.” But no, you had to bring me up. Why Mike? Why do you have to try and validate your solution by attacking others, and the staff that supports it? Let your solution stand on it’s own two feet and be happy with it.
How much longer do you want to have to experience Bouma’s odious and hyper-biased “news reporting” ??
Many users report that reading Bouma’s posts makes them ill.
If you are sick of it, please join the recall effort.
Send email to David Adams, [email protected] , and get Bouma recalled.
This message brought to you by the “Fans of Unbiased and Quality News Reporting” recall committee.
@ Solar
> Mike, for years now everything receives impressive
> scores in Amiga related magazines, because there’s
> nothing to compare it with.
Of course there is. The Amiga software market is known for its tons of relative good shareware/PD alternatives.
Any commercial product needs to offer something which makes it stand out from the freely available alternatives.
IMO H&P did not make bad software, maybe not SOTA but neither crappy. Maybe you would not like to see updated versions of their software for AmigaOS4, however I do. Just name me a few “much better” native alternatives available for MOS then?
> I doubt that the company H&P did the Amiga market any
> good, all totaled.
They organized Amiga shows, made sure Amiga products were mentioned in German TV shows and developed two AmigaOS releases and various *free* updates. In total I would come to a positive score.
@ Nate
> “Nope, not my thread”
I am happy to hear this, so there’s still hope.
IMO in the future just concentrate on MOS instead and we can all live happily ever after. 
> Let your solution stand on it’s own two feet and be
> happy with it.
Words I hope Genesi could finally related themselves to.
> Why do you have to try and validate your solution by
> attacking others
I don’t care much about MOS. Personally I can stick to Amiga articles as I feel no need to go into MOS threads or onto MOS websites, regardless of what is stated there with regard to these products.
> Mike, for years now everything receives impressive
> scores in Amiga related magazines, because there’s
> nothing to compare it with.
Of course there is. The Amiga software market is known for its tons of relative good shareware/PD alternatives.
There’s a good shareware/PD word processor alternative to AmigaWriter? What is it? Seriously: I’ve been out of the market a while.
I have heard of spotty reputations with regard to H&P…
Since their practices on licensing was named by a developer of a major & popular product as one reason for his quitting development, you’re going to gloss this matter over so nonchalantly? This isn’t an isolated case, but a pattern. Kronos’ point stands (and I am no fan of Kronos, nor of his opinions):
Looking back at H&P’s past [with license disputes using external developers] (Genesis in 3.9, Amithlon), I can only say that anybody thinking about taking up that offer needs his head examined !
> There’s a good shareware/PD word processor alternative
> to AmigaWriter?
No there are no good (enough) shareware/PD alternatives to replace AmiWriter (which i.e. handles Micrsoft Word/FinalWriter/WordWorth documents, footnotes, anti-aliasing, multi-language spellchecking, etc). That’s kind of the point.
And there are some decent quality yesteryear Amiga wordprocessors to compare AmiWriter to, like Final Writer and Wordworth7. When updated and using the much nicer AmigaOS4 default interface, I believe it could offer a nice solution to Amiga users, at least until developers manage to port OpenOffice or something equivalent.
your definition of Amiga and mine are quite different. You took this opportunity of olive branch hoding to attack my definition. Talk about a poor sport.
Oh come on, “your” definition of Amiga, get real. The Amiga is a brand, nothing more and the peg is NOT an amiga until Amiga Inc says so, simple as that. Your platform of choice is capable of standing on its own merits. Be proud of that instead of the amiga wannabe chanting…
Then in your definition, the Amiga is a brand name. It’s all a matter of perception.
StormC was suffering from amny problems.
I own a copy of it that we used to compile a multi platform C++ project. Indeed it compiled on all platforms and caused infinite loop problems in StormC.
We used the updates and still got issues so we ended using the GCC port from Geekgadget that was free and never had any of these problems.
Some of the products H&P were distributing were great (Pagestream, Tornado3D, Moonzoom). Too bad there were the Warpup, AmiTCP and Amithlon fiascos.
So this is where you guys duke it out now that a truce has been declared on amiga.org
—————
rdfox
MikeB was not trolling. He reply right to some thing.
I don’t like H&P but they have some good software.
@ redfox
> So this is where you guys duke it out now that a truce
> has been declared on amiga.org
Nothing has really changed here at OSNews.com. Since around the start of 2003 (I guess), OSNews Amiga articles have become more and more a fighting(/playing) ground for MOS advocates and employees.
Amiga.org hasn’t got much to do with this problem (although some of the same people are involved). I still have some issues with Wayne Hunt (Genesi employee and owner of Amiga.org), but we agreed to not get in eachother’s way (at least until a recent public attack by him and some of his buddies). Kees Witteveen however is quite a nice and rational guy. I hope he will be able to settle the issues with Wayne to undo the banning of Ray Akey (a very kind, well mannered and reasonable Amiga Inc employee).
I am proud however that I don’t know of *any* Amiga supporter who would want to go onto MOS threads and websites to force their opinions on “other side”. Kudos to the Amiga platform supporting community!
> a very kind, well mannered and reasonable Amiga Inc employee
Apart from the fact that that’s really your own personal opinion, not shared by a LOT of other people, specially considering all the things R. Akey says, how about moderating yourself because of your blatant OT posts, uh?
How can you be so dishonest is beyond my understanding.
@ ikir 😎
> I don’t like H&P but they have some good software.
And that’s what will matter the most to the AmigaOS4 platform to become a success. We need all the remaining companies to co-operate and join forces.
@ Others
IMO the issues between companies and employees should not be of such a concern to the ordinary user. These issues should be settled behind the scenes and if really nasty in court.
Also let’s take Elbox as as another example. They have created many great products for the Amiga community, but was recently alledged to have made a mistake to include some nasty anti-piracy measurement in their software, which was ‘discovered’ through illegally hacking of their software. The same bloodhounds (you know who you are) you see stirring up trouble on various Amiga forums nearly publicly “executed” them for this and has dragged on for ages.
Elbox is a great company, without companies like Elbox there would be no Amiga market. IMO this kind of behaviour is weakening the Amiga community and market in all aspects. (including the rival solutions)
> They have created many great products for the Amiga
> community, but was recently alledged to have made a mistake
> to include some nasty anti-piracy measurement in their
“mistake”? “alleged”?
1) That’s not a mistake, it’s a pure criminal act.
2) It’s not “alleged”, it’s proven.
> software, which was ‘discovered’ through illegally hacking
> of their software.
“illegal hacking”? Get your facts straight once and for all, Bouma, you do just pure disinformation: there’s nothing illegal about the discovery, what’s illegal is the trojan in the Elbox’ software.
@ Fabio Alemagna
> specially considering all the things R. Akey says
He mainly clarifies things, like when Dammy/Damocles claimed that without any doubt Amiga Inc was bankrupt some months ago. False.
Or when Bill Buck of Genesi claimed that Bill McEwen was fired (fired himself) and that Fleecy Moss was soon to follow. Again false.
Ray’s banning at AO had to do with statements by Bill Buck with regard to the lawsuits between to two companies, as he claimed they had ended in the favour of Genesi. While infact the lawsuits are still ongoing and there has been no settlement.
Ray was a valuable informative addition to the Amiga.org community portal. IMO the wrong person was banned.
> Ray was a valuable informative addition to the Amiga.org
> community portal. IMO the wrong person was banned.
It doesn’t matter what you have to say about Akey, I didn’t even think for a moment that you’d say that I was right, what matters is that you are blatantly OT and breaking the OSnews’s policies. Now, how about moderating yourself down and give some GOOD example on how to behave here?
> “mistake”? “alleged”?
Ever heard of the phrase “Innocent until proven guilty”? Were they convicted? NO! Are they criminals? No way!
> there’s nothing illegal about the discovery
They code was closed source and Elbox’ property. If I break into your house and “discover” dubious material there, this still does not set things right.
> Now, how about moderating yourself down
This thread already went hopelessly off topic with the allegations against H&P. Pretty clear flamebait. And like I stated already at Amiga forums, I will not be moderating Amiga related forum postings here at OSNews.
> and give some GOOD example on how to behave here?
OK, I will keep out of threads relating to your AROS project as well as MOS threads, just like I already do. (I truly hope at the very least Genesi employees would take this as an example, but with regard to Amiga of course)
> > “mistake”? “alleged”?
> Ever heard of the phrase “Innocent until proven guilty”?
> Were they convicted? NO! Are they criminals? No way!
They’ve not been convicted because no one brought them to court. If someone did, you can be sure like death is that they’d been all put to jail.
In any case, it’s been proved that that code was there, and by law such code is criminal. If anything, all this should pose serious doubts on the Elbox’s status and reliability.
> > there’s nothing illegal about the discovery
> They code was closed source and Elbox’ property. If I
> break into your house and “discover” dubious material
> there, this still does not set things right.
Wrong analogy. The code is protected by copyright laws, and no copyright has been violated, hence there’s nothing illegal.
You can’t make such bold statements on the sole basis of your personal ideas on the matter: there are facts which you don’t consider, facts called “laws”.
> They’ve not been convicted because no one brought them
> to court. If someone did, you can be sure like death is
> that they’d been all put to jail.
That’s your opinion and not a fact.
Anyway here’s the clarification from Elbox on the situation:
http://www.elbox.com/news_02_11_13a.html
But note that even if I *see* you murdering someone, it would still be an alleged murder until proven guilty in court.
Good night.
Mike, stop. It’s not the good Mike against the evil rest of the world. If too many people field criticism, spend the minute to think about whether they might be right after all.
Regarding the criticism towards H&P:
> Just name me a few “much better” native alternatives
> available for MOS then?
How in hell did you come to the conclusion that I was even thinking about MOS, which I have never even so much as downloaded?
Sorry, but I’d say you suffer from a severe paranoia there.
>>>> Mike, for years now everything receives impressive
>>>> scores in Amiga related magazines, because there’s
>>>> nothing to compare it with.
>>> Of course there is. The Amiga software market is
>>> known for its tons of relative good shareware/PD
>>> alternatives.
>> There’s a good shareware/PD word processor
>> alternative to AmigaWriter?
> No there are no good (enough) shareware/PD
> alternatives to replace AmiWriter. That’s kind
> of the point.
> And there are some decent quality yesteryear Amiga
> wordprocessors to compare AmiWriter to…
Now, please, which way do you turn? Are there still supported products available which AmigaWriter, StormC et al. could be compared to, or are there not?
Hint: There are not.
> like Final Writer and Wordworth7. When updated and
> using the much nicer AmigaOS4 default interface…
…which won’t happen because neither Softwood nor Digita are still involved in the Amiga market AFAIK.
> This thread already went hopelessly off topic with
> the allegations against H&P. Pretty clear flamebait.
Mike, no.
In #6 you advertise the “excellent” StormC package.
In #11, Kronos stated that he doesn’t think StormC is “excellent”, and I’d back him up that it’s only “excellent” as long as you compare it to other Amiga IDE’s only (since it’s the only one I know of). It’s buggy, badly supported, and one major as well as three minor gcc releases out of date.
In #12, you suddenly went to flame MOS, which no one in this thread has mentioned or even implied.
Sorry to say that about an Amiga fanatic like I once was myself, but if there’s a troll in this thread, it’s you…
> How in hell did you come to the conclusion that I was
> even thinking about MOS
I did not mean that. I am saying AmigaWriter fills a gap. Features like Microsoft Word import are useful to many Amiga users.
The point I was trying to make: Better have something reasonably useful like AmigaWriter available than nothing at all.
AmigaWriter is relatively small and efficient, could even be useful on a PDA some day. (Probably much better so than OpenOffice)
> Are there still supported products available which
> AmigaWriter, StormC et al. could be compared to, or are
> there not
The older software can still be bought. Reviewers will compare the modern solutions with Amiga’s large pool of pretty good quality legacy software. I don’t believe most reviewers will simply give positive reviews by default. However I don’t deny that certain software is often of far more value within the Amiga market than they would be on Windows or Mac.
> …which won’t happen because neither Softwood nor
> Digita are still involved in the Amiga market AFAIK.
WordWorth does work with AmigaOS4 already and uses its new default interface.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/features/index.php?op=r&cat_id=6&rev_…
However I was referring to AmigaWriter.
> Mike, no.
> In #6 you advertise the “excellent” StormC package.
Correct, in my opinion StormC offered an excellent package (even to beginners).
> In #11, Kronos stated that he doesn’t think StormC
> is “excellent”
Correct, no problem with that. That’s his opinion based on his experiences.
> In #12, you suddenly went to flame MOS, which no one in
> this thread has mentioned or even implied.
False. My reply was with regard to the allegations made by Kronos against Haage and Partner, regarding their business ethics and such. That was the clear flamebait I was talking about.
I just pointed out to the fact that H&P does not support his rival platform. I did not flame MOS, although it’s well known that the core of the current Genesi supporters have been on Haage & Partners case and vice versa for many years now. (since the well known kernel wars)
>> How in hell did you come to the conclusion that I was
>> even thinking about MOS
>
> I did not mean that. I am saying AmigaWriter fills a gap.
Strange, since I’ve been talking about StormC, not AmigaWriter.
> Better have something reasonably useful like
> AmigaWriter available than nothing at all.
That doesn’t make H&P the big saviour, just the one that continued when the big ‘uns left the market.
> in my opinion StormC offered an excellent package
> (even to beginners).
As you might have realized from reading other’s posts in here, there are other opinions.
> My reply was with regard to the allegations made by
> Kronos against Haage and Partner, regarding their
> business ethics and such. That was the clear flamebait
> I was talking about.
So everything negative is flamebait? Starting with WarpUP and not ending with StormC, H&P has built a history of at least criticisable decisions that certainly helped their business case, but not likely the Amiga as a whole.
> I just pointed out to the fact that H&P does not
> support his rival platform
Still you brought up that “rival platform” that Kronos hadn’t said a word about. That’s what I call a flamebait.
> although it’s well known that the core of the current
> Genesi supporters have been on Haage & Partners case…
Sorry but I am not a Genesi supporter, and several people I know aren’t, either, but we still think H&P business strategy has been a pain in the… you know.
I am not a friend of R.S., either; if I had to pick three people that were most successful in making the Amiga’s comeback to mainstream not coming true, R.S. and Mr. Haage would be among them. (The third being either Mehdi Ali, or whoever was responsible for crippling the Lorraine to be a cheapo kid’s computer in the first time.)
@ Solar
> That’s what I call a flamebait.
OK, I just asked some people for a second opinion on my statement. (Neutral people, not people I have already argued with in the past, like you)
I asked if they think my “the company may not support your rival platform” statement was offensive and their ideas on “give us a free ride, and we might give some scraps”, “I can only say that anybody thinking about taking up that offer needs his head examined !”, “you can be sure like death is that they’d been all put to jail.”, etc.
They just laughed and said “it is obvious these guys like to attack you for any small reason, but they only make themselves look ridiculous.”
> OK, I just asked some people for a second opinion on my
> tatement. (Neutral people, not people I have already argued > swith in the past, like you)
The last resort for the losers: bring in the discussion anonymous and unknown people you say that he’s right and the rest of the world is wrong.
Come on, Mike, give it a rest.