SDL is now available for SkyOS. The popular cross-platform graphic/gaming library was ported to the operating system. Additionally, the complete TCP/IP stack was heavily bugfixed, resulting in much more reliable services like Web Browsing with SkyKruzer, domain name lookup and DHCP. Proxy support for SkyKruzer has been improved. Additionally, round one of the SkyOS GUI ReDesign Contest has begun. Over 30 entries were sent in, and the entries will be whittled down to 3 by way of an open community vote. Everyone is encouraged to view the designs and cast their votes.
SkyOS Update and GUI Contest Round One Voting Open
Submitted by Hexydes 2003-09-08 SkyOS 46 Comments
SkyOS has had this “undecided license” for a while. Now yesterday they’ve unveiled their EULA. It seems VERY VERY questionable, effectively indemnifying itself from the GPL and prohibiting reverse engineering.
Particularly the following line:
“If GPL code is used in SkyOS (e.g. libraries, applications) you can not claim that this makes SkyOS open sourced the only code you have the right to view is this GPL code. If you agree to this EULA and claim that SkyOS is open source because of the GPL code you will be liable for slander against SkyOS Inc.”
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!??!! That seems to be entirely illegal under the GPL terms.
Time for an e-mail to RMS….
I’m curious to see how the newest release is. I have a live CD of v3.something or other. It’s cute, but with no working web browser, it was somewhat limited. It’s a lot of OS for such a small size.
Just wanted to give a BIG THANKS to Eugenia for posting our news. =)
Its too bad the first post here has to be someone screaming about the licensing issue with the OS. If you don’t like it, don’t use it.
Robert has worked very hard on SkyOS, almost entirely by himself, since 1996. He doesn’t want to give the code out. What’s wrong with that? It doesn’t go against the GPL at all. It simply says that if there are parts of GPL licensed code used in SkyOS, you can view them, but as far as the OS goes, that is staying closed source. Robert has been very careful in regards to the GPL, whose license we completely respect. If he used the code, or modified the code of a GPL project in any way, you can get said code. The only code he is not open sourcing is the code for the OS, which does not use any GPL’d code.
Don’t forget that Robert is not a native english speaker. He writes stuff the way he is thinking of them, simplistically, he does not have a laywer to write his EULA properly. I believe that what Robert is saying there, is that if for example you spot a GPL program on his OS, like Konqueror for example, you have the right to see that modified source code, as it is under the GPL. But the fact that he used a GPL app doesn’t mean that the whole OS needs to be opensourced. Of course, if the libraries he used were not LGPL, but GPL, then yes, SkyOS will need to open source his linked parts of his code.
Again, I am sure Robert doesn’t mean ill, he is just very weak to express that legally correcly in english, so don’t get the high road just yet. Email him first.
Good call Eugenia. =)
Keeping in mind that not everyone speaks English, you also have to remember that this is the first version of the EULA. It probably will have to be re-written in part so that people can understand it better. Instead of flying off the handle about things, like Eugenia said, ask questions. You can certainly ask Robert, you could ask myself, you could ask Youlle (who partially contributed to the writing), or you could post in the forums.
Why don’t you try NOT to kill a small project before it has a chance to go anywhere?
There are finally some very nice and clean mookups!
@Braddock Gaskill: I think what this means is just that, in case there would somehow mistakenly get some GPL-code in theirs, this will not automatically make the whole SkyOS GPL but they can remove the code which IMO is ok.
I believe that what Robert is saying there, is that if for example you spot a GPL program on his OS, like Konqueror for example, you have the right to see that modified source code, as it is under the GPL. But the fact that he used a GPL app doesn’t mean that the whole OS needs to be opensourced. Of course, if the libraries he used were not LGPL, but GPL, then yes, SkyOS will need to open source his linked parts of his code.
If that is what he ment, then, yes, he is correct. Perhaps Robert should get people who are a little more fluent in other lanugages to articulate his points in said languages. You have to admit, its rather inflamintory in the current OSS vs Proprietry environment.
But man, if he coded Sky without using ANY GPL elements, my hats off to him. Thats quite an accomplishment.
As far as I know, all parts of the OS are non-GPL. They are all written from scratch. Some of the apps I believe are, such as the media player, but he will be the first one to make sure everyone knows that and if they ask, he will gladly give the source to them.
Seen my GUI?
I have made two versions of it.
the first one is “SlickShot”
And the one i posted yestoday
The voting starts now.
come 15th sep it will all be clear…
Not forgetting a big thanks to hexydes who got all of this
Keep up the good work.
Blootoo gets my vote. *votes* Oh, I’m the only one, now I feel special. B)
Seriously, I like it the best. Colors and widgets are attracting, and the concept seems fine to me. Object Blue would have gotten my second vote, but Blootoo is the coolest I think.
Thanks to eugenia for the corrections. You said what I mean.
The kernel of SkyOS is free of GPL code. But applications like apache, perl, khtml,… are GPL software. So you can’t claim that the OS itself must be open source.
Sure, each application which is linked against GPL libraries must be open source. This source IS available.
I will give my best to rewrite the E.U.L.A (or even by another person) to a more understandable form.
And yes, it’s really very difficult to write such legally correctly english. (at least for me 🙂 ).
BOLD is really a nice submission – combines some of my favorite elements from the various GUIs in current OS’s
lol, sorry english is not my favourite language, to many conflicts in grammar and word meanings, ill try to re-write my EULA, i wrote most of it, ill re-view it and re-write it as best as possible
also as far as i can tell the quote u hav made, does make sense, and only people that may have problems are non-english speakers, but english isnt my first tongue so i could have made some errors, i appologuise for any i have made
I mean no harm to the SkyOS project, it is quite respectable.
However, for the project’s own good, I would suggest that that EULA be taken down because it has legal implications that I don’t believe it can handle and could indeed get the entire project in trouble.
I’ve written Robert and Richard Stallman with my specific concerns; namely the mention of GPL drivers and the license’s attempt remove the responsibility of distributing GPL source code for distributed binary applications.
If SkyOS is really following the GPL rules, then there is no need to address the GPL in the license. Adding any additional limitations on the distribution of GPL code in the license is, to my understanding, itself a violation of the GPL which requires no further restrictions.
If there is uncertainty at to whether the SkyOS complies with the GPL, then it should be not be distributed until Robert talks with the Free Software Foundation to clarify the legal ground rules. If Robert doesn’t have a lawyer, the FSF _DOES_ and can help him to do things legally. Otherwise the project WILL get in trouble, and the current EULA will only make things far far worse.
Not a Lawyer
sorry if im mistaken but if a project uses GPL, code only that code has to made available by the programmer, his closed source code, doesn’t have to be made available, am i right or have i mis-interperated things ive read, in Njorde Freisen there aren’t many GPL documents
You’re the kid that used to sit up at the front of the room and try to get kids in trouble.
People like you suck. Leave Robert alone, he has done a lot of work to make sure that the GPL is respected in the SkyOS project. Now you’re trying to get him in trouble through litigation. Why? Do you just have nothing better to do? Do you just want to stall SkyOS? Robert has kept adhering to the GPL in a very high priority, and every aspect of the project that uses the GPL complies to it.
Why don’t you go find something better to do than attack small one man projects. Isn’t there a child somewhere you need to be abusing?
…look like CRAP!!
Most seem to be marriages (made in hell) of UI elements and color schemes from various existing OS’es (if I see another lickable button, I think I’ll puke).
For those of you who don’t know XP is ugly and Aqua is overdone. Try Being Original.
The ONLY exceptions I can see are :
Jon-Jons Desktop – a little too monochromatic, but nicely laid out. Looks a bit like a Geoshell skin I’ve seen before, but still nice.
Newance GUI – semi-original window layout.
Sky-Box – By far the best design – needs a splash of color though (and just how do i close those windows?)
Wind UI – second best design – slightly derivitive with a semi-original idea or two – needs more color (and again how do I close the windows?)
Just my .02. Keep at it guys.
im still the kid at the bak of the class gettin into trouble lol coz of the kid at the front, lol. viva la SkyOs, viva la revolution lol, yea robert has stood by GPL in the main, but there is a lot of questioning of GPL itself, well there was not sure if it was sorted out. but ahwell dont critisize, advize we’d respect u more 4 it
you know you want to
Hmm, I’d say:
#1: Abriel – http://www.nathanpalmer.com/skyos/albums/album21/abriel_04_1.sized….
#2: SkyBox – http://www.nathanpalmer.com/skyos/albums/album11/skybox_044.sized.j…
IMHO, Diver is *far* too much GNOME, and WindUI is a bit too much MacOS X (not to mention it doesn’t show any widgets, although the panel is pretty nice).
…just my two cents…
This is just to let you know that these designs are just mockups. Basically, they are schematics. Once a winning design is picked, we (the GUI team) will polish it up and make it look really nice, along with adding custom icons, wallpapers, and making a new installer interface, and then we are shipping it to Robert for coding and implementation.
So vote for what interface you think is best for usability, not necessarily how it looks in the contest.
As it is *written*, the SkyOS EULA is blatently illegal. “Using” GPL code means exactly what it says — using GPL code in your program. If that’s not what you mean, than take down the EULA until it does say what you mean. Further, the entire GPL comment is flamebait. There is no legal basis behind the claim that distributing GPL apps with your product makes that product GPL’ed. The GPL specifically has a clause for this. The mere existence of a statement implies something that you probably do not want to imply. It would be like putting a clause in your EULA that says (“Jewish people are allowed to use this software.”) It might be true, but its a no-op, and rasies questions of why you would bother to say it unless you have alterior motives.
Now, I can understand that this is a small project, yada yada yada, but the law is the law. Nobody is trying to kill SkyOS here, or get them in trouble. We’re just making sure that they say what they mean, and that what they mean is completely legal.
…have to be Bold and WindUI.
I would actually like to see someone bring Bold to WinXP as a visual style, but obviously without the beos Z-Snake.
WindUI looks very much like my Gnome desktop in style, so that also really appeals to me.
Great submissions all round guys, some really impressive stuff in there
@zephc: I voted for persephone, but now I hope diver will win.
@rayiner: I support the SkyOS EULA in the current status completely. The GPL is no law and was never approved in court.
Why do people not have the faintest grasp of the legal system? Of course the GPL isn’t a law! Its a a copyright license! By default, copyright law says you *cannot* use other people’s code in your own. The GPL just gives you more rights than what you get with the default copyright. If the GPL for some reason doesn’t hold up in court (if it doesn’t, it would be because of unenforcability, in which case *all* open source licenses become questionable) then the copyright on the code defaults to no access, and anybody using GPL’ed code in their program is in violation of copyright infringement from the original author. There is no way to get GPL code for free. If you want to use other people’s code, you have to play by their rules. If you don’t want to abide by the GPL, then DON’T USE GPL CODE IN YOUR PROGRAM!
Of course, I’m not accusing anybody of stealing code here. I think the present SkyOS setup, if I understand it correctly, is just fine. Lots of OSs (OS X, BeOS, etc) ship with GPL’ed applications, without incurring any further license requirements. Its just that the license, with its present wording, is illegal according to US copyright law. It might be a draft, but in general, its wise to make sure that anything you put on the internet is legal, even in draft form. If its a draft there for public comment, then it should be clearly marked as such, which it is not. Further, if it is a draft there just for public comment, consider these postings to be that public commentary
The majority of GUIs entered in the competition do little for form and functionality IMHO. I’m the designer of the Newance GUI which incorporates some ideas which I believe combine form and functionality together.
For example the ability to actually shadow windows but still move and resize them as actual shadows on the desktop. This idea not only is visually pleasing (I feel), but adds functionality.
If you read the description too, I mention an idea where holding alt on the keyboard would make all windows transparent, and allow you to access basic desktop objects like icons, or able to see the time and date in the upper right hand corner.
Another goal of this design was to make a more functional dock/bar/whateveryouwishtocallit. On the bar for the Newance look is a window navigation scheme which is able to be resized and “scrolled”… thus giving you access to the various applications you have open without taking up mass amounts of room or looking at tiny scaled objects as you begin to open more windows. As it stands the bar allows you to see the application along with the time it’s been open… in the future more things could be presented to the user per application spot.
All other functionality on the bar is pluggable in a form of modules. Whether or not you want the mp3 player, the system monitor, or any other number of ideas is up to you. You could have a weather monitor, a command input box, or whatever.
Anyway, feedback is welcome on the SkyOS forum, and here. Please vote for me!
I really hope that SkyBox doesn’t win since it has no discernable UI, just a few widget styles. That’s no interface.
I really like the look of Diver–a blend of KDE and GNOME, w/o all of GNOME’s clunkiness and KDE’s bloat. I’d like to see Gtk/Qt versions of it.
Sad, though that there really isn’t a lot of innovation. If I were creating a theme, I’d design it with a three-button mouse in mind, Button one would be the primary, Middle would be task management (pop up over any active or inactive window), Right would be the menu which would pop up in a circular fashion around the mouse and could be set to either icons, icons/text or just text. Menus could have submenus and also be able to stay onscreen but mostly would disappear when the last menu option was chosen.
“”As it is *written*, the SkyOS EULA is blatently illegal. “Using” GPL code means exactly what it says — using GPL code in your program. If that’s not what you mean, than take down the EULA until it does say what you mean. Further, the entire GPL comment is flamebait. There is no legal basis behind the claim that distributing GPL apps with your product makes that product GPL’ed. The GPL specifically has a clause for this. The mere existence of a statement implies something that you probably do not want to imply. It would be like putting a clause in your EULA that says (“Jewish people are allowed to use this software.”) It might be true, but its a no-op, and rasies questions of why you would bother to say it unless you have alterior motives. “”
Yes, but ordinarily you aren’t obliged to distribute applications with a license stating “Jews aren’t allowed to use this software” (Using your example). If SkyOS distributes applications that are GPLed then they have to distribute a GPL license with them. I see this statement in the EULA as trying to avoid people misconstruing the inclusion of a GPL license with one application as indicating all applications are GPLed. From that point of view it’s perfectly acceptable to mention the GPL in the EULA if some applications that are part of the base distribution have a GPL license.
As for whoever mentioned lawyers and the FSF with regard to GPL violations I have only one thing to say: “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss”.
<sarcasm>Truly this is freedom.</sarcasm>
Hmm, why dont the author incorporate a skinning module into the OS? That way other people do not have to rely on other UI…
Also, I can’t wait until SkyOS start supporting other coding languages besides those of the …..C family..
Skinning/themeing is support by the current GUI already. I’m not sure if the new gui will be skinnable too.
There are already other languages to program in:
C, C++, ASM, Perl, PHP and Java.
Hey Robert, I’ll take a stab here, hope you don’t mind. =)
By the way, in case anyone was wondering, I’m the lead designer for the GUI Design Team (consisting currently of myself, NPalmer, Youlle, and two design artists, plus the winner of the contest).
As Robert said, the current SkyOS GUI DOES have skinning. We are giving the UI a TOTAL OVERHAUL. This will fundamentally change how users interact with the OS, much different than simply skinning.
In future version (post 5.0), one of our hopes is to include some sort of skinning ability.
Hope all of that was at least partially accurate Robert. =D
besides scripting languages:
c/c++ and asm?
which asm: nasm or fasm? (fasm would be the better choice though…)
hmm, no basic for the masses?
No Basic for the masses. I left a message on their forums about 4 – 5 months ago, and they are basically a community filled with… I do not know the proper term, but it’s basically language racism
Oh, and I did ask for coding languages (ie, programming languages), not scripting languages. Glad to see that ASM is in there though
Thanks for the info about the GUI/Skinning. Exactly the answer I was looking for.
“WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!??!! That seems to be entirely illegal under the GPL terms. ”
I say : EXCELLENT !!! That stupid little viral game from GPL found an opponent. Good lord, at last some open source project directly oppose GPL, and I’m really happy about it.
Oh and watch your heart, judging by your message, you’re on the verge of a break-down …
Long live SkyOS !
If you don’t like the GPL, then don’t use it! Compile your alternative OS with Visual C++. Use the BSD versions of basic utilities. Don’t go near KDE, or GNOME, or Mono, or Linux, BeOS (it uses a GPL’ed libc), GRUB, Qt, GTK+, wxWindows, FLTK, OpenOffice, Abiword, Cygwin, or any of the other GPL’ed programs. If you do choose to use these programs, then abide by the license the authors of these programs chose to put their work under.
You could also use SkyOS, as SkyOS is not under the GPL.
Try to follow the sentence. I didn’t say you could use BSD, but that you could use the BSD versions of the basic UNIX utilities. I don’t recall SkyOS coming with its own suite of UNIX utilities.
Its time like these that I wish there was a :rolleyes: icon to take advantage of.
Well it should be the most obvious one, considering what this story is about.
Not that my opinion counts for much, but I think I liked the Wind UI look the best. It was clean and easy on the eyes (on mine anyway, which seem overly sensitive to bright, obnoxious colors).
By the way, great job on SkyOS. I haven’t looked, so I’ll be lazy and ask here. Is there any support now, or planned support in the future, for Python?
Rajan R’s Desktop. Tommorrow I would add more mockups
I think he needs to get a proper English speaker, or better, a lawyer, to do his EULA. Because EULAs are meant to be legally binding, and not being understandable removes entirely the use of this EULA. In addition to that, certain parties could twist his words and that wouldn’t be good.
I doubt I would win the votings and all, and if I do (hahaha, highly unlikely), i have a series of exams coming up (which is why I’m slow is sending it my other mockups that currently lacks descriptions), I’m wondering. When the overhaul process starts, would you be taking ideas from other people who contribute?
Otherwise my efforts are kinda wasted.
BTW, I just voted for Wind (I never like voting for myself :-), I hope that wins. I like the concept, it can sure use a make-over in terms of looks, and a few things that I don’t like, but it is kinda nice.
but a licence is open for interpretation, no licence is clear cut in any form