“The Debian installer has been considered its Achilles heel for a long time, but in the last couple of months things have really been heating up in installer-land.”“Ian Murdock recently announced to the Debian project that Progeny, the Debian-based distro that created the famous Progeny Graphical Installer, was dropping PGI in favour of porting Red Hat’s Anaconda installer to Debian. But things haven’t been sitting still
within Debian itself either, with frantic work over the last couple of months to get the next-generation Debian Installer to the point where Sarge (Debian 3.1) can be released. So, for your edutainment and complete with pretty pictures, I present to you this first look at the next-generation Debian Installer.” Read it at LinMagAU.
A First Look: Next-Generation Debian Installer
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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looks pretty backward, old style and ugly… Confusing and un-inviting… But better that the previous Deb installer i guess. Better examples:
1. RedHat Fedora
2. SuSE Yast
3. Mandrake DrakSetup
4. Lycoris setup
5. Lindows
6. Xandros …
7 and now Microsoft Longhorn
are all modern acceptable ways to install an OS.
1. have and advanced option
2. logical defaults
3. a GUI
4. Detect everything.
Its a great step forward for debian but what about “OLD” packages –> read uptodate packages….thats more needed than installer…don’t you agree ?
I would *kill* for something like this for Gentoo.
Does Debian compile the packages for the system like gentoo? or are they all precompiled? I’m not framiliar with the distro..
Also, is it easy to get cutting edge software like the newest versions of kde, gnome, etc..?
The installer aims for the lowest common denominator, therefore it’s going to look reather plain. Gets the job done though.
once you get debian up and running, you can stay on cutting edge with using apt-get, its like the emerge of gentoo
Debian uses pre-compiled packages; easy enough to compile everything, just doesn’t have an emerge equilvant, it uses apt for installing/updating precompiled binaries.
Easy enough to get cutting edge, although a few days late sometimes in various apt reposotories.
Personally, I have no probs with text based installers. Did I hear that this new Debian installer will eventually also have a GUI option?
I don’t need no stinkin’ pretty gui. Just give me the hardware detection.
Debian wasn’t hard to install before. Now it’s even easier, it looks. Way to go. Debian is a binary disto, by the way. It is not like Gentoo. Debian has a very up to date package set. It’s called unstable (sid). Though it is called unstable, it is often more stable, and better tested than those packages included with shipping CDs.
Installers DO NOT have to be graphical to be good. Just intuitive. Asking people to select their country doesn’t seem like too much to ask. The only thing that really looks like it should be redone is an autopartitioning system, so that the cfdisk step could be skipped. Not that cfdisk is hard. I’d guess that my parents could use it if they had to.
The only thing that seems missing is a means of hardware autodetection for X. Last time I tried the dconf tools for configuring X, they didn’t work very well and were very unintuitive. This should almost be automatic if someone chooses to install X.
Did you even read the article? The installer is completely modular. A GTK+ based GUI is in testing and will eventually be released. As for your other “points” the new installer has all the traits you listed except the GUI.
“are all modern acceptable ways to install an OS.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If by “modern” you mean something that doesn’t support all the architectures your OS runs on, then yes, those installers are fine! But Debian cares about being multiplatform, so those installers don’t cut it.
..because it uses anaconda, but I realise the Debian project may not want an installer that needs to many computer resources.
So why don’t Debian take a look at redhats ncurses based install. It tries to mimick its graphical anaconda installer and is very easy to understand.
There is a project called DEBTOO (debtoo.org) that is giving gentoo-like compiling options to Debian.
Try it, its nice.
I didn’t see much difference between this and the old one.
And BTW, sid has a lot of outdated packages. Last time I checked they didn’t even have XFree 4.3.
I ran the installer in VMWare 4 today and didn’t have any problems. Its about as involved as doing the Morphix or Knoppix install (read…dead easy with little interaction) To tell you the truth though, I prefer the old installer…as I have installed debian over a dozen times and am a control freak. I feel a distinct loss of control with this installer. Hmmmm…maybe thats why I prefer gentoo.
Speaking of Debian vs. Gentoo. Debian is a pain to set up AFTER installation. Spend the time and carefully do your Gentoo install, ESPECIALLY the “USE” flags. You end up with a system that JUST WORKS.
I would recommend using Gentoo to anyone with over 6 months of Linux experience. Debian is for servers and grandmas.
Can’t you just use apt-get source with a deb src repository in your sources.list?
The current one in Woody, imho is good. This newer one is almost the same as the first one with a few differences that I think will not really convince people who had a hard time with the current one to try it out. I just wish that the developers can add a selection wherein you can install a ‘minimal’ system just like FreeBSD. Yes, you can do it right now by skipping tasksel and dselect but I just wondered if its possible
Sid’s packages are very rarely not up-to-date; sometimes, they’re more up to date than Gentoo’s.
XFree 4.3 isn’t included because it refuses to build on several archs. There are downloadable packages on packages.debian.org that are still in ‘experimental’.
Hmmm, it’s in beta, moving fast after Ian put some fire under their collective butts (Anaconda) “think of a name, or i’ll call it apple” type of deal, you can install woody, sarge, or sid, right of the bat at the beginning of the installation. You can forget deselect and whatsitsname, do a minimall install and add all your packages at the end thru apt-get or synaptic, better that way anyways, lean and mean.
It got hardware recognition (if it’s like Libranet, it’s a winner), I like it, do a sid, install gnome2.4, xfce4, all the stuff you want, this people are beginning to get with the program.
Later on, they can add the pretty gui stuff, not bad! the thing is, they got so many platforms…
And yes, I use both Debian and Gentoo, and sid packages ARE frequently more up-to-date.
In any case, Debian’s focus hasn’t been the desktop, although that’s changing. It’s always been the aim of debian-based distros like Libranet, Lindows and Xandros.
PeaceMaker: What could be easier than saying ‘no’ to tasksel and dselect? FreeBSD’s installer is MUCH harder than Debian, IMNSHO.
“I have installed debian over a dozen times and am a control freak. I feel a distinct loss of control with this installer.”
This issue is addressed in the installation howto (http://cvs.debian.org/debian-installer/doc/INSTALLATION-HOWTO?rev=H…) which you obviously didn’t read.
—
Recently the debian-installer has switched to ask only the important questions and configure the rest automatically. This also means that you won’t get to see the main menu anymore, except when something goes wrong. If you want to restore the old configuration with more questions asked, set DEBCONF_PRIORITY=medium at the boot prompt.
—
If you wanted to be *really* freakish, I imagine you could set DEBCONF_PRIORITY=low, even…
7 and now Microsoft Longhorn
are all modern acceptable ways to install an OS.
Longhorn? I thought that Longhorn was vaporware, due out in 2005 to 2006, if the release dates don’t slip again! We don’t even know what the installer there will finally look like (but it will probably have unacceptable-to-me activation features).
More to the point, Debian runs on 11 architectures. I don’t know of any OS which is more widely ported, with the obvious exception of NetBSD. The installer has to run on them all (list below), and Longhorn/Anaconda style installers might not be appropriate on some of those architectures.
Intel x86 / IA-32 (“i386”)
Motorola 68k (“m68k”)
Alpha (“alpha”)
Motorola/IBM PowerPC (“powerpc”)
ARM (“arm”)
MIPS CPUs (“mips” and “mipsel”)
HP PA-RISC (“hppa”)
IA-64 (“ia64”)
S/390 (“s390”)
Ports that haven’t been released yet
AMD64
SuperH (“sh”)
People are getting excited about a text based installer? I’m tired of text based installers; I demand graphical ones!
that means that anyone can write a GUI for it for the platform they wish to support.
to the people that think Debian is slow….THAT IS THE POINT!!!
they want STABLE not new. if you want a more up to date system, run testing or unstable, the new installer supports installation from those sources.
one thing I found out that will cause problems is that when you configure the apt sources, in order to get the system to work, you need to remove the CD source from sources.list, THEN add the remote source. this is a bug I hope they work out.
I must say that I am impressed and think Debian has now become super easy to install.
all Debian needs now is an automatic network resource set up system for detecting servers on the network for printing and file sharing.
all the other config stuff is available via GNOME or KDE, though tools to make setting up servers would be nice as well.
IMHO cfdisk is EASEIER than Microsofts fdisk.
Don’t worry.
I imagine that Progeny will soon put install images using their installer up for download on their site, just as they’ve been doing for their old PGI installer (http://hackers.progeny.com/pgi/).
So, if you prefer it, you’ll just be able to download that instead. No biggie.
The easiest install that I have ever done was morphix. You just put the cd in and it is done. Press the copy to hard drive button, watch the status bar, set your root password, and you are done. Execute apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade; (or use the gui tools if you so desire), and you have an a fully patched operating system installed in less than 1/2h (assuming your net connection is the same speed as mine).
A good install should work like morphix, but with more polish, some advanced options, and package selections more geared to a base system instead of a demo cd. Things like partitioning disks are too hard in morphix. Also if the default install becomes like morphix there should be a more user friendly way to work around problems than there is right now.
The debain way adding software lends itself to this as well. All the software is just a click away. I can attest that I have this type of system running on a few boxes just because I am too lazy to go through the classic install procedures.
I missed the part in the new installer which says ‘nothing – you may manually run apt-get or any oh the above later’ which is basically a minimal install. That answered my question.
At this rate, Debian will get a “proper” GUI installer in the year 2012. I had high hopes for the next-gen Debian installer but this is just not funny.
I still prefer the simplicity of FreeBSD and Slackware installers.
n0dez
dude…you want a GUI installer? make one that goes over the text based one. the new installer is modular allowing plug-ins that use graphics, in fact, I bet that many unofficial sources will pop up that will have debian installers with gui front ends because it has become so easy now.
…the new installer(sarge) on a couple of boxes. It was buggy and required some workarounds.
IMHO the debian installer has never been “hard” to use. If you’ve got a clue to what you are doing the debian installer beats all those fancy GUI installers.
… is the best debian installer.
I don’t buy the argument that a text-based install is used because of multi-platform support.
I recommend that they pick the 2 most used platforms (the ones that regular “users” will use, ala x86 and PowerPC.) If you’re running a server, then you probably don’t need a gui to install, because presumably you’re an expert, not a regular web browse / office user.
I have installed Debian in the past (last march) and it wasn’t a big deal to me (I am a firmware programmer.) If I gave the CD to my Dad and asked him to install it, he’d be so lost.
installers like this current one make Morphix / Knoppix look even better (if that’s possible.)
just my $0.02.
I’m sure whatever videocards/integrated video available for those 11 systems mentioned support 16 colors and 640×480 VGA resolution.
“… is the best debian installer.”
Ah, yes, but Morphix 0.4 allows you to preconfigure the /etc/fstab, create and mount extra partitions prior to hdinstall.
I always laugh when I see people say that they want X autoconfigured.
I agree xf86conf or whatever people use is a pain… hence why I just:
XFree86 -configure
It autodetects EVERTHING PERFECTLY!
The ONLY thing that I ever have to do is put
“DefaultDepth 24”
in the video section (presumably because people that are running old(er) systems that don’t support 24bit color (aka parents, etc.) probably don’t know how to change it).
But anyway, I still don’t get why people prefer to use any other tool… it’s cake
Look, is this so hard to understand? Despite the pushing of ‘desktop Linux’ recently, the Debian project itself sets its own priorities. They’re not selling anything except CDs; despite what you might think, Linux’s greatest focus and degree of penetration is on the server. They want a text based installer. They don’t give a damn about desktop users or your mom and dad or your grandma or Joe Average. They care about building a stable, cross-platform, server/power user desktop operating system that doesn’t go the way of the other Linux distros and focus on i386/PowerPC–part of the Debian philosophy is that other plaforms will never be in any way less supported in official versions than i386.
Debian is not and never has competed with Knoppix/Morphix/Xandros/Lindows/Libranet/Lycoris/Mepis etc. etc. etc. These have all been desktop oriented projects, and that’s fine. They are all based on Debian.
In any case, someone is bound to have a graphical frontend for this stuff soon, and there’s a GTK version in the works as has already been mentioned.
Another couple of months, and this installer will be ready. Just in time for switching from RH9. Don’t tell me about Fedora–I know and _understand_ exactly what they are doing. IMHO, Debian is the only distro with any long-term hope of remaining true to the spirit of Linux.
Look, is this so hard to understand? Despite the pushing of ‘desktop Linux’ recently, the Debian project itself sets its own priorities. They’re not selling anything except CDs; despite what you might think, Linux’s greatest focus and degree of penetration is on the server. They want a text based installer. They don’t give a damn about desktop users or your mom and dad or your grandma or Joe Average. They care about building a stable, cross-platform, server/power user desktop operating system that doesn’t go the way of the other Linux distros and focus on i386/PowerPC–part of the Debian philosophy is that other plaforms will never be in any way less supported in official versions than i386.
Debian is not and never has competed with Knoppix/Morphix/Xandros/Lindows/Libranet/Lycoris/Mepis etc. etc. etc. These have all been desktop oriented projects, and that’s fine. They are all based on Debian.
In any case, someone is bound to have a graphical frontend for this stuff soon, and there’s a GTK version in the works as has already been mentioned.
I can’t understand how anyone wouldn’t like this installer. Is it too hard to understand? How will pretty graphics make any of the install screens any easier? Simply choose a language, partition the hd(s), initialize the file systems, install a base system, skip dselect and taskel, choose a time zone, and set up apt-get then you’re done!!! Have any of you actually done a woody install? The author was right about chickens being able to install it. You only need to install once. So unless you like installing operating systems over and over every day what good would a gui do?
Valid points, though I would be cautious about tarring all the developers with the same brush. There *are* those interested in tailoring the distribution with Joe Sixpack in mind, as demonstrated by the existence of the Debian Desktop subproject (http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-desktop/).
“They’re not selling anything except CDs”
Actually, the project doesn’t distribute CDs itself, either, only the ISO images.
being text or graphical doesnt really matter to me.. what does matter is if it WORKS… this being beta definately has its issues.. ya’know.. like formatting my 30GB’s of .flac’s on a different partition on a completely different hard drive.. yeah thats one issue that needs to be worked out. also other issues with lilo, etc. I think im definately going to wait for a final version to be rlsd.. bad week with computers for me :
“like formatting my 30GB’s of .flac’s on a different partition on a completely different hard drive”
Ouch!
Please file an appropriate bug against the debian-installer package (http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/report-template), or post (with additional details) to the debian-boot mailing list. An issue this serious should be brought to the developers’ attention right away.
Huh? Have you tried NetBSD or OpenBSD installers? Installing Debian was one of the easiest text-based distros I have ever mastered. How tough can it be? The trick with text-based installers is to first configure your / and swap partitions; once you have done that, you’re in for a go. Simple as that.
I agree that not much is different except for the hardware auto-configuration. I also think that was the only thing missing. This new installer sounds awesome. The only thing Debian needs, in my opinion, is a selection of official backports, for when you want all the stable goodness of woody but you have a few specific needs for more recent programs. Obviously they could be labeled as ‘stability not guaranteed’, but at least there would be security updates and such.
Hi there,
I am with potato and woody for some time now…and i really
DON’T see the reason for a shitty GUI Installer like YaST,
Mandrake or doing so! Xandros, of course, for Novice, and
Desktop Market, or LibraNet. But i’d HATE a shitty GUI like
DeadRat Linux in Debian!
my 2 Cent,
tank
Not that I’m reacting to all the anti-Fedora propaganda, but the latest Fedora was giving me a few problems (e.g. can’t get a WPC11 v3 wireless cared to work when using a WEP key), and I thought, what the heck, I’d try giving the latest Sarge installer a go this morning.
It started transferring files from the 100 MB CD after a few selections on the ncurses display and all of a sudden, my drive (CD I assume) started making noises like a bunch of chirping birds and the update bar stopped progressing. Scary. I turned it off and went back to Fedora. I may try it again when Sarge is released, but this could be well after Fedora 2, which I’m looking forward to (I want the low latency kernel as soon as I can get it).
I’ll never go with SuSE unless they put out a torrent ISO version of their least proprietary version (the FTP one), and I’ve never been that keen on Mandrake (never seemed very professional). I’m not ready to try something completely new like FreeBSD or Gentoo or Slackware, so I guess I’ll stick with Fedora and Windows XP (for wireless, HDTV card, National Geographic Maps, …) for a while longer.
Dara Parsavand
Debian seems like it is on its way out of the distro market. If you want to make it better use Carple Linux it works better…
Debian is not by any stretch of the imagination going out of anywhere. In fact, it may well rise in prominence due to the elimination of RH’s free distro.
Carple Linux? I don’t know what that is.
CooCooCaChoo’s comments are usually well-argued and insightful, even if I don’t agree with them. It looks like this is a troll posing as him.
I don’t need all of this fancy glitter and glamor… color, window-shadowing, text boxes, cursor addressability… We need an installer more along the lines of:
>
Where at the ‘>’ prompt you can type a command, or type ‘h’ for help:
> h
Options are [abcdefkmqzABUD]
>
One thing that characterizes Debian GNU/Linux more than anything else is that it is made by geeks for geeks. The old installer was written for geeks and it served its purpose quite well. This new installer is clearly a step towards making Debian more understandable for non-hard core geeks, a step towards right direction I think, but in order to become really popular Debian also needs a GUI central for system configuration tools. Libranet’s Admintool, for example, consists mainly of standard Debian config scripts. Yes, Debian is user friendly but this user-friendliness is hidden so well that only hard core geeks know how user friendly Debian actually is.
This new installer is definitely a good thing. Just give people a GUI center for launching sysconfig scripts and Debian may actually become as popular as it deserves to be – among non-hard core geeks, that is.
“I don’t buy the argument that a text-based install is used because of multi-platform support.
I recommend that they pick the 2 most used platforms (the ones that regular “users” will use, ala x86 and PowerPC.) If you’re running a server, then you probably don’t need a gui to install, because presumably you’re an expert, not a regular web browse / office user.”
It’s not the processors supported that limits what they can do, or the knowledge of their users — it’s the video options. The installer needs to work for every video-out from a 256MB AGP card down to a serial cable. Yes, a serial cable. Try running a 1024x768x32 session over one of those…
Graphical installer fronts will come soon for those who can take advantage, but the bare-bottom-guaranteed-to-work-installer stage is just text for that very good reason.
I’ve been saying for ages that disk partitioning is often the most complex and usually the weakest area of most OS installers. This new Debian installer takes a poor route of dumping you into cfdisk which, whilst marginally more friendly than command line fdisk, isn’t really friendly at all and is likely to scare an awful lot of newbies.
Red Hat/Fedora is little better – Disk Druid really needs to be far more intelligent about handling existing partitions (e.g. tell me what version of Windows or Linux is on every partition and label it properly in Grub please [not just “DOS”], plus it should search every Linux partition for existing /etc/grub.conf data and try to merge it into the Grub menu and the Disk Druid partition screen. Of course, it would help if at least NTFS read-only support was actually in the kernel so that users could see their XP drives immediately after installation…
The storm linux installer from 1998 was way better than this.