Home > Syllable, AtheOS > Syllable Gets GCC 3.3.3 and Binutils 2.14 Syllable Gets GCC 3.3.3 and Binutils 2.14 Submitted by Pablo M 2004-03-24 Syllable, AtheOS 34 Comments The Syllable Team is pleased to announce that Gcc 3.3.3 and Binutils 2.14 are now available for download in Syllable. A new Glibc version is also under way. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 34 Comments 2004-03-24 4:08 am Another victory for Syllable. It’s in danger of becoming a viable alternative desktop OS. 2004-03-24 4:16 am Is it just me or does this project seem to be developing very slowly for the past several months or more? Maybe I’ve just been spoiled by SkyOS. 2004-03-24 5:43 am That’s somewhat of an optical illusion. SkyOS gets a lot of shiny new parts while Syllable gets back-end stuff. Not saying that SkyOS doesn’t develope faster, but they do have a huge advantage with Robert being a four-armed mutant coding freak 2004-03-24 6:05 am You have to remember it’s a fork too. (Atheos) 2004-03-24 7:00 am when will the next version be released? 2004-03-24 7:47 am > SkyOS gets a lot of shiny new parts while Syllable gets back-end stuff. This is not true. SkyOS had a brand new filesystem attached just a month ago. SkyOS is having more advancements than Syllable on both the system and even more on the application level, however it is mostly ports and re-implementations of existing things rather than innovation and I believe that Robert of SkyOS should really think of differentiate his product a bit by introducing new things to the industry rather than copy all things Unix & all things Windows and mix them together. I don’t want to sound negative because I do like Syllable/AtheOS’ architecture and innovative ideas MORE than SkyOS’ (especially in the AtheOS days where Kurt alone would create incredible new things for a hobby OS), however it is also true that SkyOS just gets things done much faster while Syllable seems absolutely stalled and when it doesn’t seem stalled is just is about porting drivers or dev tools or libs. Where is support for the (broken for years now) VM, for example? 2004-03-24 8:05 am ..SkyOS just gets things done much faster while Syllable seems absolutely stalled and when it doesn’t seem stalled is just is about porting drivers or dev tools or libs. It is an illusion. The 0.5.x versions of Syllable are largly about dev tools and libs! When we forked from AtheOS we were left with a toolchain falling rapidly out of date. The only viable solution has been to port our toolchain from scratch, and we can then merge our changes back into the GNU mainline to ensure we don’t get out of date again. This is a lot of work, and there is nothing we can do about this other than to work as hard as we can do get it done and get on with something else. I’d also deny that nothing else has been happening. Bus Managers, USB support and the Media Framework was introduced in 0.5.x Henrik has been working very hard on libsyllable these past months. Again we’ve had to spend some time on fixing and rearchitecturing parts. We need to fix these things before we can start going forward at any great speed again; that’s just the way it is. Where is support for the (broken for years now) VM, for example? Introduced in 0.5.2 as experimental, if I remember correctly. I managed to omit it from the Changelog for that release somehow. You can add enable_swap=true to try it out. 2004-03-24 8:13 am Great work! I’m really looking forward to Syllable 0.5.3 (because of the ATA driver) Only thing that’s missing now are some updated API tutorials 2004-03-24 8:44 am Syllable should only loosely be considered a fork. From Wikipedia: “a code fork occurs when variations on the same piece of software are independently developed.” Atheos is no longer developed. The Syllable team picked up a piece of abandonware and continued it’s developement under a new name. Syllable is like the son of Atheos, and Cosmoe is like the illigitimate half-brother no one invites to Christmas 2004-03-24 10:41 am As is the case with SkyOS, only does any good if the OS itself is usable. Given that very few people (if anyone) has reported success installing the latest SkyOS Beta, and given that it supports, at most, two sound cards (one model of which I have but can’t get working), no network cards, and two(?) accelerated video cards, it has a long way to go before it’ll catch up with Syllable. 2004-03-24 11:29 am “Syllable seems absolutely stalled and when it doesn’t seem stalled is just is about porting drivers or dev tools or libs.” No offence, but that’s pretty uninformed Eugenia. To an outsider it may look like that (well, a little), but follow the mailing lists and you’ll see a LOT of work going on. In particular, check out the new desktop and file manager currently being worked on: http://www.geocities.com/arno_klenke/desktop2.png On top of that, as Vanders has pointed out, most of the work is low-level stuff that end-users don’t see and, consequently, little is said about it. Contrast that to SkyOS, where every minor development is given a big news entry on the site and post on here (not to knock the SkyOS coders at all!). Finally, it should be noted that Syllable’s kernel is already very stable and mature, so you’re not going to see massive overhauls now. Syllable’s hardware support is considerably stronger than SkyOS’s, and has a great deal of functionality. Right now there’s a lot of code moving about. You’ll really see the changes in the next few releases, when new glibc, new gcc, new desktop, new ATA driver, new apps and more make an appearance. 2004-03-24 11:33 am from Sourceforge CVS statistics: “684 commits, 8,784 adds”. That doesn’t seem very stalled to me. Nobody who isn’t on the mailing list will take Syllable seriously. Vanders, you must be really miffed now. 2004-03-24 1:28 pm > Finally, it should be noted that Syllable’s kernel is > already very stable and mature, so you’re not going to see > massive overhauls now. Syllable’s hardware support is > considerably stronger than SkyOS’s, and has a great deal of > functionality. This seems to be the mantra for syllable developers. Our kernel works so lets not change anything. Thats just an excuse pure and simple. Taking a lot at the kernel, it may work but it is not refined in any sense of the word. Vanders also mentions “oh we had to do a lot of work porting toolchains. ” Im not disagreeing with that but thats no reason to neglect other parts of the system. Old versions of GCC were not stopping developement. I wholeheartedly agree with Eugenia that most of the down and dirty work is either not done or just ported from linux. I mentioned this the other day and got jumped all over. As for being able to use the VM, Vanders, just because you can enable it doesnt mean it works well. 2004-03-24 1:30 pm And oh yeah, someone said “unless theyre on the mailing list they dont take syllable seriously” Im on the mailing list and I still have problems with it. 2004-03-24 1:38 pm “I wholeheartedly agree with Eugenia that most of the down and dirty work is either not done or just ported from linux.” But so what if some stuff is taken from “Linux”? (glibc and gcc are not Linux projects at all). What’s the point of writing a C library from scratch, when the GNU project has already created one? What’s the point spending MONTHS trying to write drivers by reverse-engineering, when solid, working driver code already exists for Linux? From an engineering standpoint, that attitude makes no sense. Linux and co. are a great source of very reliable code, and relevant bits should be utilised. What’s next, you’re going to dig at Apple for using a lot of BSD? Let’s make one thing clear. Eugenia is a great writer and knows a lot about interface design, and makes this site worth visiting. But her word isn’t gospel; just because she hasn’t seen the real developments going on in Syllable, doesn’t make it a fact. She’s not an OS engineer. Equally, many people who post on this site seem to be armchair “OS architects” who think they can tell everyone what to do. Anyway, it’s all moot. When the next few Syllable releases arrive with new toolchain, new glibc, new desktop, new ATA driver, new video drivers, new apps and more, all this talk will look nonsensical. Let’s focus on the good things! 2004-03-24 1:43 pm It’s all opinions. I’m no armchair OS architect either. I do OS research at University of Pittsburgh. Im just stating my opinion. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be reuse of existing code. Especially with the GNU toolchain. Its important to reuse things like that. But when it comes to drivers and such. Whats the point of having an operating system that underneath is just linux. Apple did what Cosmoe did reuse the base and fix the front end. You guys have a good front end, but are slowly porting over the linux base. Why not just help the Cosmoe project 2004-03-24 1:46 pm Our kernel works so lets not change anything. As oposed to what? Making random changes? I just don’t get this. A peice of code is written and it fullfils its purpose. Why does it need to be changed? I’ll refer you to the kernel ChangeLog though. We have made changes where it is needed. Vanders also mentions “oh we had to do a lot of work porting toolchains. ” Im not disagreeing with that but thats no reason to neglect other parts of the system. It is when you only have five developers. There is no neglect. We havn’t broken any functionality and then left it broken. Old versions of GCC were not stopping developement. Actually yes they were. One example; to support proper internationalisation and localisation, we need a newer Glibc. In order to port Glibc 2.3.2, we needed Gcc 3.x. Not to mention that eventually, we have to change to Gcc 3.x and that will break the C++ ABI. If there is one thing Syllable relies on heavily it is C++; we need to change to the new ABI as soon as possible to minimise disruption later on. most of the down and dirty work is either not done or just ported from linux Right now there are two things I can think of that require attention: AFS stability issues and VM performance. What else do you believe is not being done? I really am curious because I’d hate to think I’m out of touch with how people actually want to use Syllable. As for being able to use the VM, Vanders, just because you can enable it doesnt mean it works well. Either submit bug reports or fix it and submit patches. We’re an Open Source OS. There are five of us working on Syllable with a few others doing peices of work where they can. If you want it to work better, feel free to muck in because frankly, we don’t have the time or the energy to do it all. It strikes me that a lot of criticism seems to be coming from people who are either not involved in the development of Syllable or whom are not willing to help fix the issues that they percieve as serious enough to complain about in a public forum. I’m not saying that people do not have a right to criticise; far from it, but it needs to be contructive criticism and you need to understand that like any OSS project, we have limited resources. Saying “x doesn’t work and needs to be fixed” is fine. Saying “x doesn’t work and hasn’t worked for ages, it’s never going to be fixed and you’re all rubbish because you havn’t fixed it” is unfair and downright rude. 2004-03-24 1:53 pm But when it comes to drivers and such. Whats the point of having an operating system that underneath is just linux. I think you fundementally misunderstand the Syllable kernel and how we make use of Linux code. If you think that Syllable is “just Linux” then I’ve been using some odd release of Linux from a parellel dimension these past five years, because they’re totally different to me. Drivers are just that; drivers. They don’t affect the architecture of the kernel at all. In userland, AtheOS and Syllable have always used GNU tools, libc and toolchain. We’re not changing anything there, just bringing in newer versions in a clean and maintainable way. Syllable isn’t a kernel. It isn’t a GUI. It is an Operating System from top to bottom, and it is designed as such. There is little point in looking at any single part of it in isolation; what is important is if it all works together as a whole. As far as I can see Syllable works well as a system. Parts of the system are currently missing. Some parts may need attention. We’ll get ’round to it. 2004-03-24 2:37 pm Well I just want to congratulate you guys. And to say “shame on all you whiners!” They shouldn’t have to defend themselves on OSnews.com, maybe on msn.com, but definitely not here. And until they take an entire subsystem of Linux’s I wouldn’t make any comparisons(other than functionality). What does it matter that the kernel isn’t perfect? Windows NT has been working for years with a sub-perfect kernel. Syllable’s kernel works! So they can work on other things that make the whole system work better. And when the kernel is the biggest issue with functionality, I’m sure they’ll get to fixing anythign that needs it. Also remember Syllable is OSS, so you should feel free to submit patches and fix things. 2004-03-24 5:00 pm “I just don’t get this site anymore! It used to be where when a new enhancement was made(in any OS) the site, in general, cheered and now it is just a bunch of people who complain. ” Rick, I can understand why you are frustrated and totally agree with you. IMHO this is a problem of OSS. Most people are used to get all things they need for free, that’s why they don’t appreciate the hard work of others. It also could be that the people that are complaining can’t program at all, that’s why they can’t understand anything anyway. Hmm, this thought would make sense, because most people here complain about how a desktop looks instead of how it works… For my part I appreciate every little bit of work anybody does in his spare time to create a different OS, Syllable, ReactOS, SkyOS etc… Keep it going guys… 2004-03-24 5:30 pm Rick, I don’t think you should become bothered so much. The majority of people on the free software / Slashdot scene will never use or particularly like Syllable. It just isn’t what they want. There’re numerically many, many more people outside of the geek scene (or whatever you want to call it) who would like something like Syllable. This should be whom you seek approval from. You’re probably not going to please people who like GTK, SkyOS, Gnome, KDE, Linux, etc, unless you make Syllable into those things, which isn’t what you’re trying to do. SkyOS is receiving the OSNews mentions because it posts many news updates of its progress, along with screenshots. It also comes across to people as being a cool-looking media OS which is what most OSNews readers want, that is why they like it. I know you must be perplexed why every time Syllable is mentioned there is a torrent of riddicule and the like. I think I understand why this is happening. But anyway you shouldn’t let yourself be too concerned by the perceptions of others who won’t ever be using Syllable. — Sorry I miswrote before what I was meaning; it should’ve read “Nobody much who isn’t on the mailing list is taking Syllable seriously.” This is what happens when you’ve got a bug and disjoined sleep, no offence indended. lol a “bug”. — By the way, don’t assume Rick is accusing Robert of illegal activities with SkyOS. Robert is within his legal rights to integrate BSD code into SkyOS if he wishes. Microsoft did this with http://ftp.exe and the TCP/IP stack. 2004-03-24 5:35 pm Don’t worry about it, Rick. This actually means that people are not regarding Syllable as a hobby OS anymore, but are starting to make demands from it that they would from a mature, commercial-grade OS. 🙂 2004-03-24 5:48 pm “The majority of people on the free software / Slashdot scene will never use or particularly like Syllable. It just isn’t what they want.” There’s a lot of truth in what you said — a good post all round — although I don’t think Syllable has to be exclusively a newcomer-friendly OS. Even now, it has a good terminal and a number of GNU tools, and is usable for experienced types. I’m a total geek, having used Linux for five years, but I’m still looking forward to the day when I can run Syllable as my main OS. The geeks who want to look l33t and ubersmart will not, as you say, be attracted to Syllable, but I think the geeks who want a solid, friendly and powerful desktop OS to do their work on will like it. After all, there are plenty of geeks using MacOS X now – but that’s still targeted at novices. 2004-03-24 5:55 pm Now that my video card is supported, I just may give syllable a spin. Honestly, I thought its development had begun to drop off. Then I saw the recent story that among many other things, that syllable now includes drivers for my radeon 9800. I’m quite interested in giving syllable a try out. I’m also very happy that development has actually been going fast. The main thing holding me back is network card support now. I have an intel gigabit ethernet card integrated into my i875 chipset motherboard. Not being able to go online yet in syllable is a real deturrent to me. Is there any chance (though I think it unlikely) that this card will work in syllable as just an eepro100? As for people complaining for lack of kernel development, I think the reasons you’ve stated are quite valid. Why should time be wasted improving things that are at the least good enough right now when there’s so much work to be done in so many other places? Work is obviously being done where it is needed, both in and outside of the kernel. Thanks. 2004-03-24 6:36 pm Don’t fret ’bout it Rick. There’s plenty of people who appreciate your effort (and not just the Syllable related effort, you are after all the first one to ever have bothered explaining c++ classes to me ). So yeah, keep it up . – Bram 2004-03-24 6:38 pm Please note, that the Radeon support is still considered as Alpha. There are some issues with Radeon 9500 and higher. The Intel 1Gbit NIC driver still has to be ported, but I don’t have such hardware and then it’s nearly impossible to port a driver. In this special case, it can only be ported because I don’t want to sign a NDA with Intel … Concerning drivers, I think it’s better to port them from Linux than writing your own. Besides the NDA problem, I just don’t have the time for reverse-engineering specifications; but if we had more MAN POWER it would surely be possible that drivers will be written completely from scratch. SkyOS, for example, has announced just today that they need driver developers (after its driver support has been quite limited). Syllable seems to have some problems with getting noticed and has only a handful people who really doing something. I don’t know what causes this. Concerning SkyOS, I have great respect for it and its developers, especially Robert. SkyOS *may* lack innovation, but Robert gets his ideas done, and that quite fast. Perhaps I will give it a try, but I will stay with Syllable ;-). Michael Krueger 2004-03-24 6:53 pm At this point, how solid is the install, i would like to try it out but don’t want it messing up my running system. Will it e.g. leave me the choice to partition, not overwrite my mbr and only use floppy’s to boot it? Is it solid with partition tables? 2004-03-24 7:50 pm I have an intel gigabit ethernet card integrated into my i875 chipset motherboard. Not being able to go online yet in syllable is a real deturrent to me. Is there any chance (though I think it unlikely) that this card will work in syllable as just an eepro100? Sorry but the eepro100 driver won’t work with your GigE card. There is a specific ee1000 driver under Linux and *BSD for those cards and no one has ported it, although it was mentioned a few weeks ago on the mailing list. You could always pick up a cheap no-name Realtek based or some such if you really want to! Note that the Radeon driver won’t be in Syllable until we release 0.5.3, although you can always install 0.5.2 and Micheals driver seperately if you like. Will it e.g. leave me the choice to partition, not overwrite my mbr and only use floppy’s to boot it? Is it solid with partition tables? Yes to all of those questions. If you choose not to install Grub you can create a boot floppy which can be used to boot Syllable from a partition. If you want to do that you should ask on the mailing list and I can explain how to do that. 2004-03-24 8:25 pm Hi “IMHO this is a problem of OSS. Most people are used to get all things they need for free, that’s why they don’t appreciate the hard work of others. ” Some people troll and annoy others and it some how becomes the problem of a some software developed using a particular license or model of development. thats a pathetic logic OSS is not about zero cost software. its about having the freedom to modify and distribute software. thats the bottom line. when will you understand that? regards Jess 2004-03-24 10:17 pm News of progress on an open source OS is mostly greeted with whining on a site with the title “OSNews.com”. People, if you don’t like what they are doing or the pace in which they are doing it, fork the code and get busy making these improvements real on your spare time. SkyOS’ progress is impressive, but how has that got anything to do with the pace at which Syllable improves. Are you even qualified measuring the pace at which these projects move? I for one can’t say I am. I tried Syllable out, but couldn’t get it running. The devs were very friendly and tried helping me in making things work, which is more than could be said of several other open source projects (not referring to SkyOS, of which I have no experience). Something with my HW wouldn’t work properly with Syllable so I abandoned the project, but with great respect of the devs spending a fair amount of their valuable time trying to help a cluesless noob getting things running. 2004-03-25 12:52 am This all seems pretty academic to me because SkyOS has recently pulled all free downloads from their site and will be charging $30 for version 5. As far as I can tell, that is a long way from free and open source. I don’t begrudge them, the SkyOS team deserve the rewards for their work, but to compare what is free and has made no mention to become otherwise with what is becoming non-free seems futile?? 2004-03-25 1:54 am No… not easy, but not impossible. Posting this from ABrowse 😉 2004-03-25 2:28 am Does anybody know when the next version will be released? Didn’t had much luck with prior versions… 2004-03-25 8:06 am Maybe in two or three weeks, I hope.