The open-source operating must make key cosmetic adjustments, according to speakers at the Desktop Linux Summit. Elsewhere, the software giant ventured into hostile territory on Wednesday to argue its case during a live debate over the future of the Linux desktop.
Linux Must be Slicker to Grab Desktop Space
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Both on OSNews and in many other places… MS goes face to face and frankly shows exactly what the point is about…
Sorry to say this but lately more and more people have started to react rationally about Linux… both regarding R&D as well as about RMS and his fanatic view on things.
Soon enough a change will come and Linux users will drop in numbers….
same old same old, how slick do they want it? mac slick or “used car salesman” slick?
Funny. I thought hype was defined as: exaggerated or extravagant claims. However, I have exactly what I expected in Linux running on my laptop right now. No hype at all. If someone decides that they are going to switch operating systems without doing their homework, then they are just asking for it. I mean this even for an upgrade from one version of Windows to another. You have to do your homework to make sure that your hardware is supported, the apps you want are available and are compiled/will compile on the new OS, and how quickly will things be back online for production work. If you are believing hype or have false expectations, then some research will bring you in line so that you can make an informed decision. Linux is the operating system that I use to do serious work. Windows is only for playing games (basically a glorified video arcade).
Linux must be more user friendly for the average home user to be formidable on the desktop. I my opinion. there is no doubt that linux is more efficient, more stable, and generally a more powerful platform. These and many other factors are aleady proving linux’ worth in the server realm, but how is the home user who barely knows anything about how operating systems work going to know how to exploit those benefits?
The average home user would like to come home from work and just get on their computer and check email, surf the net, play some games, do their taxes, and maybe set up a home network. But how can they do that when the vast majority of distros require that those things to be done correctly at the terminal? I would doubt that the majority of home users can even use windows’ DOS. They cannot be expected to open up a terminal and run install.sh for this or that or apt-get a package just so they can run some games or whatever. For the better than average computer geek yes, but for the average mom or dad or high school student needing quick installation or manageability, no. Average users have not enough time or patience and knowledge for that kind of administration.
In order for the linux to really be formidable on the desktop, meaning being able to go head to head with Gates, some changes and standardizations have to be made, mainly making use easier and not more of an inconvenience as linux tends to be for those that don’t know it.
But that is only my humble opinion.
“The average home user would like to come home from work and just get on their computer and check email, surf the net, play some games, do their taxes, and maybe set up a home network. But how can they do that when the vast majority of distros require that those things to be done correctly at the terminal?”
Could you tell me wich distro requires you to open a terminal to check your mail, surf the net, play some games, do your taxes, or even configure youre home network?
Do you even know what you are talking about?
What kind of rubbish is that? There is no Linux hype! The Linux hype ended in 2000/2001!
Look at 2002 – you’ll find *tons* of articles about “Linux is not perfect”, “Linux is not ready for the desktop”, “Linux needs this and that”.
Look at 2003 – you’ll find *tons* of articles about “Linux is not perfect”, “Linux is not ready for the desktop”, “Linux needs this and that”.
Look at 2004 – you’ll find *tons* of articles about “Linux is not perfect”, “Linux is not ready for the desktop”, “Linux needs this and that”.
Look at OSnews and Slashdot for proof. People have been critical (I’d say sometimes overly critical) for years.
Are you trying to give the Linux community a bad name by pretending everyone’s a zealot?
Linux users are not dropping in numbers. They’re only increasing. Very slowly, but still increasing. Linux *is* becoming better and better, whether you like it or not (obviously you don’t).
Look Ralph. Before you go flaming. I am talking about linux as a hole. Let the average home user try to set up a home network using linux, after hearing how cool linux is. Most users will have a hell of a time hooking Samba up. Do you think they will actually recommend linux to friends who don’t know squat about anything like that?
I use linux, been running Mandrake for a good while now. Even I have to concede that linux is not ready for the average end user. Those kinds of users are going to look at ease of use. This, for many home users will be more important than cost.
And when you ask about going to the terminal, I was not specific enough for you. The many gui admin tools that come with many distros are not polished enough. I have found that I have to go into the terminal or, (ok, even simpler) kwrite and edit my files to even get them to stick. Average users aren’t going to want to do that. Nor should they have to if they are going to pay for it. And even with most distros you have to pay for, this is still a necessity. So don’t be quick to slam.
Oh, and games? C’mon now. Most serious PC users should know that gaming support is not exactly there yet for those hardcore gamers who want the latest and greatest of everything right now. And I haven’t installed any games on my linux box in forever, so I can’t comment on compatibility or problems with gaming support on linux right now. I do know that if I walk down the aisles of CompUSA or Best Buy, I won’t see as many titles with Linux support. And I do know that it is a hassle getting 3D accelaration going on my ATI Radeon 9800 Pro using even SuSE 9.0 Pro (which I love)that I PAID money for, just so I can game with minimal fuss.
Like I keep saying, I’m sure home users are gonna fret when they have to call tech support or search the forums and find out that they have to download and compile the ATI Radeon drivers because they can’t even get tuxracer running like it should due to lack of 3D acceleration because they had to use the VESA drivers just to even get X-server to run on their linux distro after the install.
So, I am not totally blind to linux “ease of use”, or its generally apparent lack there of.
I am giving my opinion.
Oh, one more thing. Did you read the article before commenting? Because, I don’t know about you, but I thought those were valid suggestions for making linux a contender on the desktop. This is about the overall success of linux (meaning in the server realm AND on the desktop, and what it takes to get there.
Yes I read the article and you did get me competely wrong. While I think that Linux is allready there for most user I absolutly agree that it needs more polish, needs to be userfriendlier, etc.
What I didn´t like about your comment were the examples you were giving. Reading and writing email simply doesn´t require you to open a terminal. Playing games doesn´t require you to open a terminal, although you are of course right that games are still missing for linux.
To set up a network you may need to open a terminal, but there are many distribution with graphical interfaces for that purpose. And let´s not forget, setting up a network is allways hard for people who don´t know much about computers, even if they try to do it with Windows.
i would suggest linux should be as similiar to windows xp as possible. part of that experience should be that installing applications and uninstalling them should be as easy as it is on xp
The anonymous poster from cm-upc.chello.se is a well-known anti-Linux troll who hangs about OSNews, spewing bile on anything Linux. Just ignore him.
The gui’s in many distros are not as polished yet, Ralph. Especially with Samba. Mandrake and SuSE 9.0 require modification via kwrite or terminal to even stick. Unacceptable if you’re gonna pay money for a claimed easy distro if you’re a home user.
But, yes. You’re right. You don’t need to hit the terminal to play linux’ built in games, or surf the mail, etc. I was being general in the “ease of use” comment. Installing third party games and software absolutely require blood and sweat at the terminal in many distros though, as some gui installers just don’t work correctly. And that is not a good argument for linux’ preference on the desktop for most oblivious home users. That is in some respect where I think some standardization would be benficial.
As for “installing/uninstalling applications/drivers,” I agree. I definitely think that if it can be made just as easy as windows xp and mac, then we would be headed in the right direction.
there should be a LSB defined framework for installers, so that people could write a installer that talks to the framework and the framework talks to the distro and checks that everything needed is installed, or if not it gets installed. one needs a way to break down package and version requests so that they are generic, not to hard realy as most item keep theyre original names. and allso most of the item there are lib that are requested right? and if you need a obscure one you either staticly link (yes i know its close to herecy but we are talking comercial products here) or in some other way provide it. then you drop it in a special section of the filesystem dedicated to insallation of user software (if your planing to install a server or database this way then you allready have root rights most likely and therefor this does not apply). sure it would mean that frontline distros would have to have software install systems that handle both the packageing system of choice and the LSB installer system but that should not be to hard. hell we could make it “softwarename”.installer.lsb or something, all the user needs to do is doubleclick and of we go. it should come complete with a signal to the distro about adding a icon to the right menus (like say a “user installed” submenu).
The gui’s in many distros are not as polished yet, Ralph. Especially with Samba. Mandrake and SuSE 9.0 require modification via kwrite or terminal to even stick.
Actually, there are quite a few GUIs to configure Samba. Webmin comes to mind, as well as ksambaplugin, which lets the player configure Samba from the KDE Control Center:
http://ksambakdeplugin.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
There are very few cases where someone must use the command line in Linux. Personally, I use it because it’s convenient, and faster than the GUI in some cases. But put a computer newbie in front of a KDE or Gnome desktop, and he’ll have no trouble at all (my gf being the best proof of that there is).
Ironically, it’s Windows Power Users who have the hardest time adjusting to Linux, because they already know all kinds of Windows advanced tips and tricks that don’t always exist in Linux.
Installing third party games and software absolutely require blood and sweat at the terminal in many distros though, as some gui installers just don’t work correctly.
That’s a rather vague comment. I’ve personally never had any trouble with “third-party” GUI installers (I assume you’re referring to the Loki Installer), but then again I haven’t installed that many third-party software. But to say that it “absolutely require blood and sweat” is an exaggeration.
On the other hand, installing or upgrading distro software (i.e. upgrading Mozilla or OpenOffice) is actually easier (not to mention faster) than under Windows.
Finally, autopackage.org is making great strides at creating a distro-agnostic, Windows-like installer for Linux. Their work on tools to help developers make Relocatable Applications is also very promising:
http://autopackage.org/docs/binreloc/
Both UT2004 and Savage installed and worked fine on my Linux desktop. Pretty simple if you ask me. As for drivers, I think the Modprobe system is very good it just needs hardware vendows out there to support Linux. Much easier to install a driver in Linux than Windows if you want my opinion, just that there isn’t much vendor support for Linux. Look at Nvidia, they have a great graphics driver for their cards. Pity ATI can’t follow suit but I do believe they are working on it.
Now what would be prefereble in Linux is GUI configuration interfaces for hardware setup options and the likes. This needs to be standardised across the board between KDE and Gnome so that it is easier for people to setup their hardware. Still, script editing ain’t that hard and if you do it in a terminal within X and have the readme’s handy it is straight forward. A re-start of X with ctrl-alt-backspace will enable any new modifications/options you might have enabled for X-Server. Better than a full reboot.
I just want my joystick to work and be easy to configure in Wine-X/Point2Play so I can play Il2 Forgotton Battles AEP under Linux. The game works just not my controller which is a Saitek X-45. )-:
Lol. I like the name. I understand what you’re saying. Yes, there are many gui’s in use indeed in many distros. The thing is that they don’t always work and are not as solid as they be, it seems to me. Like I said, some settings will not stick after applying them in the gui. It is then when I would have to hit the terminal or modify in kwrite. In order for linux to be a contender for the homeuser, this needs to be addressed IMHO. The only distro that I have experienced that kind of solves this is Xandros Desktop OS Business 2. Has excellent ease of use, all through outstanding gui’s (and the need to go to the terminal if preferred). No other distro has even come close as far I’ve seen. I think it is more distros like these we need to be a true contender on the home desktop.
Yes, faster installation I agree, if you know what you’re doing. But I don’t think necessarily easier, pointing to the windows power user comment. In which you’re right. A bit more flexibility and more of an open mind I think is required for a windows convert in order to grasp the “foreign” linux concept. I think many experienced users will be surprised as to how little the average joe knows about PC’s in general (including configuring something in windows).
So, that is why I say standardized methods for administration would help in the linux desktop race. Mainly in installation. It is easy to pick up or download a linux distro and install it and get it to work. But what about package management, considering the third party software hopefully to increase for linux? So many different installers, config tools, etc. among the various distros can be a bit overwhelming for the many windows users.
I am sick of all these people complaining about Linux and not doing anything about it. Linux isn’t Microsoft, nor is it Apple.
Distro’s such as Suse, Mandrake and Red Hat ARE slick, they make sense, and they require no more thinking then any other operating system to get things done.
The top distro’s do not require that the average user know much about the system, they don’t require the user to do anything not expected of them from Apple and Microsoft.
I think most of these complaints come from people not prepared to actually look for options that suite them. I started running Linux because I started to realize that all my favorate apps were originally for Linux. I like KDE, and like some implementations of GNOME (mainstream is quite ugly though). People still complaining need to do something more about it then simply writing up an article complaining.
Yea its true ..just try out Mandrake 10 official.
I just don’t get it. Who the hell is complaining? This is about linux’ success on the home desktop. That article had nothing to do with complaining about linux. It only spoke of making linux easier for the home user, that’s all.
That said, in order for there to be any real success on the home desktop (i.e.- going pound for pound against windows, on HOME desktops) there must be some changes to allow much more ease of use, as per my many comments above. I start to question some linux users’ desire for it’s supremacy on the home desktop.
(ugh) I’m tired of posting on this topic, as it seems to be falling on deaf ears.
I’m using, Linux as my primary DesktopOS, and there are some things that I’d like to have.
Home Networking is broken by default! I don’t want to enter IP-Numbers and stuff, I just want to plug my PCs together and they should work.
Network Browsing is broken! Every major Desktop should have an Apple-Rendezvous aware Browser included, that lists the Computers, and Printers on the network.
apt-get, yum interface is broken. Every major Desktop should have some Click’n’Run like Software-Browser, that should work offline too, and that has an overview about the public apt or rpm repository and also small screenshots for all applications. (No, Synaptic is not enough, it’s a complicated geek-toy, and not even installed by default most of the time)
Documentation is broken. Every majer Desktop should have a convenient Doc-Browser, that browses all of the commonly used linux-style-Documentation. That includes man-pages, the Gnu-Info stuff, HTML-Documentation included with some Application, HOWTOs, Developer-Documentation, etc..
Everything should be organized in easy to use and discover Categories, searchable. and nice to read, in a propper format, but not neccesarly under some stupid Corparate Identity Layout stuff.
Sane Organization, and usability(should be easy to use) is more important than eye candy.
Surely windows does not have a standard installation system at all, but merely links through the registry to individual uninstall programs? Programs can use a nullsoft installer, Installshield, Windows installer – it doesnt matter because you can activate all of their uninstallation utilities from the same configuaration screen.
Consider this when you are going for Groceris next time
—you have grandpix car 300HP, 0-60 mph in 10 sec, fully MANUAL transmission, and 7 mpg fuel efficiency.
—at grocery store–you have to pluck fruits from trees, milk the cow, cut bread slices, and catch the chicken–of course you will save money
–at counter—instead of swiping you have to enter all numbers of your credit card and exp date manually
–on the way back home–you realize that you cannot fit groceries in your race car. so call for taxi
Are you still thinking about Linux?????
Of course the analogy only describes Slackware. It doesn’t describe anything else.
On my OSNews, Richard Spindler is broken! He cannot specify enough and his nickname has the wrong color.
I don’t think you’re quite on the right track there rakamaka. Its hard to see how Linux translates into something that only gets 7mpg, I mean, how does Linux make your machine use more electricity? I also don’t see how just using linux could make your disk drives smaller. Or how using linux would force you to enter information every single time.
so lets say
-you have a car, to this car you have added a kit that improves performance somewhat, allows the car to be reliable for another 100k miles beyond its original life expectancy, and somehow just makes it look cooler.
-you can either drive it to the grocery store and get all your food prepackaged exactly the way you did before you got the kit, or you can drive into the country and get all your food directly from the farmers (who think the kit car is spiffy) best of all you can probably get all your food for free now.
-when the car breaks now with the kit, the company that you bought the car from originally will no longer service it, but as you probably have a friend who is into such things you’re probably fine, or there are mechanics and dealerships who will service it for a fee, which in the end costs about the same, and maybe a little less than servicing the car did originally.
-The car originally had a so-so interior, which now that you have installed the kit you can either remove completely to improve performance, or that you can replace at no charge with leather, but you still have to set the lumbar support.
There has been one thing in particular that microsoft has tried throughout the years, and no matter how you feel about this company, you will have to agree.
They have brought computer use away from white-coated geeks in clean rooms, down to grannies in the front room.
they have completely dumbed down the operating systems and applications so they are very simple for people to understand and use.
They should in fact be applauded for that.
Linux on the other hand, is still in geekdom, there have been excellent advances made lately, look at mandrake 10, mmm impressive !
I have started to install manny 10 on friends computers, friends who up until now had been complete windows fanboys. They recognised the advances that had been made by linux lately and all them love mandrake 10.
Linux will still be a while in getting to the point where granny and granpop can sit down, and work away just like they do in windows, but the difference is closing fast… very fast.
oh and a word on games for linux ? download Enemy Territory it is simply amazing !
first out, about that Apple-Rendezvous stuff, mandrake allready supported it in 9.2. its real name is zeroconf, do a search. apple loves renameing stuff, and the same does good old MS. rember that active directory stuff? its dns, dhcp, kerberos and cifs/smb in a nice branded package. only thing ms made inhouse was cifs/smb and that was based of netbios. its all about marketing.
as for grandma useing a computer, she can. my father knows how to take apart a car, fix what was wrong and get it back together again, and he is a wiz with solder and that sort of stuff. still he needs me to do stuff like setting up the network (i still dont see grandma doing that) or getting that new printer installed. only real benefit ms have here is that the printer makers can make nice step by step guides as you have one interface to show images of, and usb the have allmost removed that to. just plug it in and the os will ask for a driver disk if it cant id the hardware itself and i fail to see how that cant happen in linux. say, isnt there talk about something called project utopia?
> first out, about that Apple-Rendezvous stuff, mandrake
> allready supported it in 9.2. its real name is zeroconf, do
> a search. apple loves renameing stuff,
I know